Back to the main page

Mailing List Logs for ShadowRN

Message no. 1
From: Richard Tomasso rtomasso@*******.com
Subject: Questions of great importance
Date: Thu, 2 Sep 1999 10:56:39 -0400 (EDT)
This may be off-topic now, but I had the time...

> Tigerstripe: Horizontal stripes of a brown, green and black, VERY mixed
> opinoin as to it's effectiveness. It seems to be a "pretty pattern" more
> than anything else, but I've never sean SEA first hand.

I've found it to be surprisingly effective in the New England woods. (Weird,
considering it was designed for jungle use - must be the distance it was
designed for) I usually wear it when I play paintball, and I've had people
less than 30' away look right at me and not see me. Of course, I'm very good
at remaining absolutely still (another good camoflage in itself if you
aren't standing out against the background).


> Black: Great for intimidation, sucks at concealment day or night. A
> moving, solid BLACK object stands out real fast, and you just siloutte your
> life away.

I've heard it's also used to make members of a team stand out less.
There's usually something about colored camo that lets you pick out someone,
the solid black makes everyone look the same.


> There are also some universal camoflauge patterns that are little more
> than some brown and balck streaks (to break up the form) on a
> light-coloured, but not bright, backgroudn that reflect envirometnal
> colours well, but I don't know about thier effectiveness is urban environs.

I hear the South Africans came up with some kick-ass patterns as well. I
think designed for mixed terrain (hills + light woods). Some of them are
illegal for civilians to own (not that that means anything necessarily).
Message no. 2
From: Richard Tomasso rtomasso@*******.com
Subject: Questions of great importance
Date: Thu, 2 Sep 1999 11:03:00 -0400 (EDT)
> I should note, sometimes black is okay. It really depends on the setting,
> and on your concealment tactics. I've had a lot of luck with very dark blue
> at night. In highly moonlit conditions, for whatever reason--thinking isn't
> always my job, just usually--it seems to work better at concealment than
> straight black.

I was told it's because that indigo color matches the night sky with a
full moon. Something about the shade makes you stand out less in a moonlit
open area. A flat black will stand out against any color except black
(or a full shadow).
Message no. 3
From: IronRaven cyberraven@********.net
Subject: Questions of great importance
Date: Thu, 02 Sep 1999 14:41:08 -0400
At 10.56 09-02-99 -0400, you wrote:
>I've found it to be surprisingly effective in the New England woods. (Weird,

I've seen it used for the same purpose in Maine, New Hampshire, Vermont
and upstate New York, and I've never had a hard time spotting people in it.
Tiger runs side-to-side. Nature usually runs up-and-down. From the right
angle, it's fine, but when you in less than optimal conditions, I've always
seen it show up much faster than woodland, british DPM or Rhodesian. Even
solid OD works better, IME.
Milage variations, and some people are used to looking for patterns.
Tiger it too predicatble.

>at remaining absolutely still (another good camoflage in itself if you
>aren't standing out against the background).

The best- 90% of what the human eye-mind interface's default settings are
looking for is movement. Training to see patterns takes a while.

>I've heard it's also used to make members of a team stand out less.
>There's usually something about colored camo that lets you pick out someone,

Not really, becuase good camo will break up that outline as well (older
readers- break up your pot belly buy wearing woodland to work! <g>
{disclaimer: not responsable for loss of employment or freedom resulting
from the actually implemementation of this suggestion}). Bunch of guys in
mottled suits are a bunch of guys in mottled suits, so long as everyone
wears the same pattern. I suppose it would be possible to look for
variations of the pattern along seam-edges, but that would require
increadble skill.

>the solid black makes everyone look the same.

Yep- like so many targets. I think you may be thinking of why police
units use balacavas (hoods).

>I hear the South Africans came up with some kick-ass patterns as well. I
>think designed for mixed terrain (hills + light woods). Some of them are
>illegal for civilians to own (not that that means anything necessarily).

May be Rhodesian you are thinking of. And is perfectly legal (in the
States, anyways), it's just hard to find. Works well just about anywere,
but it is sometime too light for norhtern North America. I've seen pics of
South African army units with a variation of it.
It's very similiar to British DPM, but a little bit more faded. Kick ass
pattern for desert/grasslands/swamp.




Kevin Dole, aka CyberRaven, aka IronRaven, aka Steel Tengu
http://members.xoom.com/iron_raven/
"Once again, we have spat in the face of Death and his second cousin,
Dismemberment."
"There are more things in heaven and earth, Horatio, than are dreamt of in
your philosophy."
Message no. 4
From: Gurth gurth@******.nl
Subject: Questions of great importance
Date: Thu, 2 Sep 1999 21:36:31 +0200
According to IronRaven, at 14:41 on 2 Sep 99, the word on
the street was...

> >I've found it to be surprisingly effective in the New England woods. (Weird,
>
> I've seen it used for the same purpose in Maine, New Hampshire, Vermont
> and upstate New York, and I've never had a hard time spotting people in it.
> Tiger runs side-to-side. Nature usually runs up-and-down. From the right
> angle, it's fine, but when you in less than optimal conditions, I've always
> seen it show up much faster than woodland, british DPM or Rhodesian. Even
> solid OD works better, IME.

Are there many horizontal layers of plants in the woods in the areas
you're talking about? If not, then that would probably be the cause of you
spotting the tigerstripe camo, I would guess...

> The best- 90% of what the human eye-mind interface's default settings are
> looking for is movement. Training to see patterns takes a while.

"Its vision's based on movement!"

(Hey, somebody had to say it ;)

> Not really, becuase good camo will break up that outline as well (older
> readers- break up your pot belly buy wearing woodland to work! <g>
> {disclaimer: not responsable for loss of employment or freedom resulting
> from the actually implemementation of this suggestion}).

We have an SR character who had a tailor make him a tuxedo from camouflage
cloth :)

--
Gurth@******.nl - http://www.xs4all.nl/~gurth/index.html
De plaag is terug...!
-> NAGEE Editor * ShadowRN GridSec * Unofficial Shadowrun Guru <-
->The Plastic Warriors Page: http://shadowrun.html.com/plasticwarriors/<-
-> The New Character Mortuary: http://www.electricferret.com/mortuary/ <-

GC3.1: GAT/! d-(dpu) s:- !a>? C+(++)@ U P L E? W(++) N o? K- w+ O V? PS+
PE Y PGP- t(+) 5++ X++ R+++>$ tv+(++) b++@ DI? D+ G(++) e h! !r(---) y?
Incubated into the First Church of the Sqooshy Ball, 21-05-1998
Message no. 5
From: Marc Renouf renouf@********.com
Subject: Questions of great importance
Date: Thu, 2 Sep 1999 15:56:00 -0400 (EDT)
On Thu, 2 Sep 1999, IronRaven wrote:

> Tiger runs side-to-side. Nature usually runs up-and-down. From the right
> angle, it's fine, but when you in less than optimal conditions, I've always
> seen it show up much faster than woodland, british DPM or Rhodesian. Even
> solid OD works better, IME.
> Milage variations, and some people are used to looking for patterns.
> Tiger it too predicatble.

As a wearer of tiger-stripe, I can say that it has it's uses.
When tiger-stripe works best is on overcast days, and especially when
the vegetation is wet. It is also more effective when there are conifers
mixed into the deciduous growth.
Also, it works *really* well in ferns or dark grass when you're
lying down. This goes back to the whole horizontal vs. vertical thing, I
think, as lying down brings the pattern more in line with the stalks.
It's not the be-all of camoflage patterns, though. Like anything
else, it has its optimum environment.

> >at remaining absolutely still (another good camoflage in itself if you
> >aren't standing out against the background).
>
> The best- 90% of what the human eye-mind interface's default
> settings are looking for is movement. Training to see patterns takes a
> while.

Ditto that. Keeping your fidgeting to a minimum and staying still
is one of the best ways to avoid detection.

Marc
Message no. 6
From: Arclight arclight@*********.de
Subject: Questions of great importance
Date: Fri, 3 Sep 1999 01:41:55 +0200
And finally, Gurth expressed himself by writing:

> > The best- 90% of what the human eye-mind interface's
> default settings are
> > looking for is movement. Training to see patterns takes a while.
>
> "Its vision's based on movement!"
>
> (Hey, somebody had to say it ;)

Alien II?

--
[arclight@*********.de]<><><><><><>[ICQ14322211]
Vorsicht Ritchie, ein Hochhäus!! - Wer?
<><><><[http://www.datahaven.de/arclight]><><><>;
Message no. 7
From: Josh strago@***.com
Subject: Questions of great importance
Date: Thu, 02 Sep 1999 19:51:10 -0400
Arclight wrote:

> And finally, Gurth expressed himself by writing:
>
> > > The best- 90% of what the human eye-mind interface's
> > default settings are
> > > looking for is movement. Training to see patterns takes a while.
> >
> > "Its vision's based on movement!"
> >
> > (Hey, somebody had to say it ;)
>
> Alien II?
>

Also said in Jurassic Park, multiple times. It was wrong, IIRC, but
they still said it when referring to the T-Rex...

> --
> [arclight@*********.de]<><><><><><>[ICQ14322211]
> Vorsicht Ritchie, ein Hochhäus!! - Wer?
>
<><><><[http://www.datahaven.de/arclight]><><><>;



--
--Strago

The gene pool in the 21st century needs a deep cleaning. I am the
chlorine.

SRGC v0.2 !SR1 SR2++ !SR3 h b++ B- UB- IE+ RN++ sa++ ma++ ad+ m+ (o++ d+)
gm+ M-
Message no. 8
From: Ereskanti@***.com Ereskanti@***.com
Subject: Questions of great importance
Date: Thu, 2 Sep 1999 22:51:56 EDT
In a message dated 9/2/1999 6:41:28 PM US Eastern Standard Time,
arclight@*********.de writes:

> > > The best- 90% of what the human eye-mind interface's
> > default settings are
> > > looking for is movement. Training to see patterns takes a while.
> > "Its vision's based on movement!"
> > (Hey, somebody had to say it ;)
>
> Alien II?

Jurassic Park (the T-Rex)

-K
Message no. 9
From: Allen Versfeld moe@*******.com
Subject: Questions of great importance
Date: Fri, 03 Sep 1999 08:59:52 +0200
IronRaven wrote:
>
>
> >I hear the South Africans came up with some kick-ass patterns as well. I
> >think designed for mixed terrain (hills + light woods). Some of them are
> >illegal for civilians to own (not that that means anything necessarily).
>
> May be Rhodesian you are thinking of. And is perfectly legal (in the
> States, anyways), it's just hard to find. Works well just about anywere,
> but it is sometime too light for norhtern North America. I've seen pics of
> South African army units with a variation of it.
> It's very similiar to British DPM, but a little bit more faded. Kick ass
> pattern for desert/grasslands/swamp.

As far as I recall, South African civillians can't legally wear any
cammo with more than 2 tones. Of course, the statement you're replying
to makes me swell with national pride, but I can't substantiate it,
so...
--
Allen Versfeld
moe@*******.com
Wandata

QVANTI CANICVLA ILLA IN FENESTRA
Message no. 10
From: Bruce gyro@********.co.za
Subject: Questions of great importance
Date: Fri, 3 Sep 1999 10:26:57 +0200
From: Allen Versfeld <moe@*******.com>
To: shadowrn@*********.org <shadowrn@*********.org>
Date: 03 September 1999 09:03
Subject: Re: Questions of great importance


>IronRaven wrote:
>>
>>
>> >I hear the South Africans came up with some kick-ass patterns as
well. I
>> >think designed for mixed terrain (hills + light woods). Some of
them are
>> >illegal for civilians to own (not that that means anything
necessarily).
>>
>> May be Rhodesian you are thinking of. And is perfectly
legal (in the
>> States, anyways), it's just hard to find. Works well just about
anywere,
>> but it is sometime too light for norhtern North America. I've seen
pics of
>> South African army units with a variation of it.
>> It's very similiar to British DPM, but a little bit more
faded. Kick ass
>> pattern for desert/grasslands/swamp.
>
>As far as I recall, South African civillians can't legally wear any
>cammo with more than 2 tones. Of course, the statement you're
replying
>to makes me swell with national pride, but I can't substantiate it,
>so...
>--
>Allen Versfeld

Well, acording to bits n pieces I've picked up, the Denel and Armscor
boys
were on the cuting edge of compter aided design of camo as far back as
the early 80's
I know that the designs they produced are acknoeledged as among the
best in the
terrain types they were produced for...

The South African arms industry has done amazing things considering
the isolation
it was placed in for decades. Others say it is because of the
isolation.. whatever

- + - BRUCE <gyro@********.co.za> -

MiX it UP!
Message no. 11
From: Allen Versfeld moe@*******.com
Subject: Questions of great importance
Date: Fri, 03 Sep 1999 10:58:40 +0200
Bruce wrote:
> The South African arms industry has done amazing things considering
> the isolation
> it was placed in for decades. Others say it is because of the
> isolation.. whatever
>

Well, we *did* fight a lot of wars...

--
Allen Versfeld
moe@*******.com
Wandata

QVANTI CANICVLA ILLA IN FENESTRA
Message no. 12
From: IronRaven cyberraven@********.net
Subject: Questions of great importance
Date: Fri, 03 Sep 1999 09:06:45 -0400
At 08.59 09-03-99 +0200, you wrote:
>As far as I recall, South African civillians can't legally wear any
>cammo with more than 2 tones. Of course, the statement you're replying

Ewww, that sucks. Guess ghille gear is out too, huh.



Kevin Dole, aka CyberRaven, aka IronRaven, aka Steel Tengu
http://members.xoom.com/iron_raven/
"Once again, we have spat in the face of Death and his second cousin,
Dismemberment."
"There are more things in heaven and earth, Horatio, than are dreamt of in
your philosophy."
Message no. 13
From: Allen Versfeld moe@*******.com
Subject: Questions of great importance
Date: Fri, 03 Sep 1999 15:27:15 +0200
IronRaven wrote:
>
> At 08.59 09-03-99 +0200, you wrote:
> >As far as I recall, South African civillians can't legally wear any
> >cammo with more than 2 tones. Of course, the statement you're replying
>
> Ewww, that sucks. Guess ghille gear is out too, huh.
>

ghille?
--
Allen Versfeld
moe@*******.com
Wandata

QVANTI CANICVLA ILLA IN FENESTRA
Message no. 14
From: IronRaven cyberraven@********.net
Subject: Questions of great importance
Date: Fri, 03 Sep 1999 09:47:24 -0400
At 15.27 09-03-99 +0200, you wrote:
>ghille?

Swampthing Suits.
Basically, you are covered with little scraps and flaps and shags of
burlap, mesh, cheesecloth and netting that have been dyed to match the
enviroment, and attached to a jump suit or a set of utilities, and usually
has a hat with a scarf down the back and the same kind of treatment.

It works REAL well. So long as you don't move and know how to use one,
you are invisable, just another clump of shrubbery or something. Your
colours blend into the enviroment, and you have NO definable outlines if
you do all of your gear and use grease paint right (hands, neck and face).





Kevin Dole, aka CyberRaven, aka IronRaven, aka Steel Tengu
http://members.xoom.com/iron_raven/
"Once again, we have spat in the face of Death and his second cousin,
Dismemberment."
"There are more things in heaven and earth, Horatio, than are dreamt of in
your philosophy."
Message no. 15
From: Allen Versfeld moe@*******.com
Subject: Questions of great importance
Date: Fri, 03 Sep 1999 16:07:15 +0200
IronRaven wrote:
>
> At 15.27 09-03-99 +0200, you wrote:
> >ghille?
>
[explanation snipped]

Well, I can't see them banning *that* - it sounds like something anybody
could whip together with a little spare time... Mind you, this does
rely on the government being reasonable...
--
Allen Versfeld
moe@*******.com
Wandata

QVANTI CANICVLA ILLA IN FENESTRA
Message no. 16
From: Paul J. Adam Paul@********.demon.co.uk
Subject: Questions of great importance
Date: Fri, 3 Sep 1999 18:00:13 +0100
In article <3.0.3.32.19990903094724.00971ac0@***.softhome.net>,
IronRaven <cyberraven@********.net> writes
>At 15.27 09-03-99 +0200, you wrote:
>>ghille?
>
> Swampthing Suits.
> Basically, you are covered with little scraps and flaps and shags of
>burlap, mesh, cheesecloth and netting that have been dyed to match the
>enviroment, and attached to a jump suit or a set of utilities, and usually
>has a hat with a scarf down the back and the same kind of treatment.
>
> It works REAL well. So long as you don't move and know how to use one,

And as long as you're in the environment you built the suit for :)

>you are invisable, just another clump of shrubbery or something. Your
>colours blend into the enviroment, and you have NO definable outlines if
>you do all of your gear and use grease paint right (hands, neck and face).

I've seen trainee snipers using these. Well, "seen" is a misnomer ;) We
were trying to spot them. They were trying to get close without being
seen. They won...

--
Paul J. Adam
Message no. 17
From: IronRaven cyberraven@********.net
Subject: Questions of great importance
Date: Fri, 03 Sep 1999 15:17:26 -0400
At 18.00 09-03-99 +0100, you wrote:
>> It works REAL well. So long as you don't move and know how to use
>And as long as you're in the environment you built the suit for :)

It goes without saying the the "how" also includes the "when", or at
least
it should. With this kind of thing, Darwin is in full force. Shooters who
make mistakes don't reproduce. Shooters who don't make mistakes and are
lucky reproduce.

>were trying to spot them. They were trying to get close without being
>seen. They won...

I've heard that this can backfire. Some bushes don't react well to be
<cough> "watered".



Kevin Dole, aka CyberRaven, aka IronRaven, aka Steel Tengu
http://members.xoom.com/iron_raven/
"Once again, we have spat in the face of Death and his second cousin,
Dismemberment."
"There are more things in heaven and earth, Horatio, than are dreamt of in
your philosophy."
Message no. 18
From: Paul J. Adam Paul@********.demon.co.uk
Subject: Questions of great importance
Date: Fri, 3 Sep 1999 21:37:09 +0100
In article <3.0.3.32.19990903151726.0097aae8@***.softhome.net>,
IronRaven <cyberraven@********.net> writes
>At 18.00 09-03-99 +0100, you wrote:
>>were trying to spot them. They were trying to get close without being
>>seen. They won...
>
> I've heard that this can backfire. Some bushes don't react well to be
><cough> "watered".

A friend had that happen during Cambrian Patrol '90. After one phase of
the action was over, he went to relieve himself into a bush: the bush
began to shuffle away. He stepped after it (he was thirty hours into a
non-stop recce patrol exercise and not as quick on the uptake as he might
have been) and the bush said "You piss on me and I'll f!cking kill you,
mate..."

Some sneaky-beaky types were acting as close observers to grade the
teams. In wartime you'd live with it, but in peacetime there are some
indignities you don't have to live with...

--
Paul J. Adam
Message no. 19
From: Gurth gurth@******.nl
Subject: Questions of great importance
Date: Sat, 4 Sep 1999 11:44:15 +0200
According to Allen Versfeld, at 15:27 on 3 Sep 99, the word on
the street was...

> > Ewww, that sucks. Guess ghille gear is out too, huh.
>
> ghille?

He means "ghilly." It's basically a sniper's camouflage suit made from
normal camo jacket and trousers with all kinds of camo cloth, burlap,
netting, etc. sewn on to break up the wearer's outline. Hot as hell to
wear, but when combined with local vegetation (and a good deal of skill)
it can make you invisible from only a few meters away.

--
Gurth@******.nl - http://www.xs4all.nl/~gurth/index.html
De plaag is terug...!
-> NAGEE Editor * ShadowRN GridSec * Unofficial Shadowrun Guru <-
->The Plastic Warriors Page: http://shadowrun.html.com/plasticwarriors/<-
-> The New Character Mortuary: http://www.electricferret.com/mortuary/ <-

GC3.1: GAT/! d-(dpu) s:- !a>? C+(++)@ U P L E? W(++) N o? K- w+ O V? PS+
PE Y PGP- t(+) 5++ X++ R+++>$ tv+(++) b++@ DI? D+ G(++) e h! !r(---) y?
Incubated into the First Church of the Sqooshy Ball, 21-05-1998
Message no. 20
From: Arclight arclight@*********.de
Subject: Questions of great importance
Date: Sat, 4 Sep 1999 14:24:48 +0200
And finally, Gurth expressed himself by writing:

> > > Ewww, that sucks. Guess ghille gear is out too, huh.
> >
> > ghille?
>
> He means "ghilly."

No, actually he means "Ghillie" :)

--
[arclight@*********.de]<><><><><><>[ICQ14322211]
Vorsicht Ritchie, ein Hochhäus!! - Wer?
<><><><[http://www.datahaven.de/arclight]><><><>;

Further Reading

If you enjoyed reading about Questions of great importance, you may also be interested in:

Disclaimer

These messages were posted a long time ago on a mailing list far, far away. The copyright to their contents probably lies with the original authors of the individual messages, but since they were published in an electronic forum that anyone could subscribe to, and the logs were available to subscribers and most likely non-subscribers as well, it's felt that re-publishing them here is a kind of public service.

Thwap!