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Message no. 1
From: lomion lomion@*********.escnd1.sdca.home.com
Subject: Questions of great importance (Steve, Jon, RA:S people
Date: Wed, 01 Sep 1999 16:57:21 -0700
At 04:32 PM 9/1/99 -0700, you wrote:
>People, these are some important questions for a couple of stories I'm
>working on and I need CANON answers.
>
>1. What constructions materials are used in the Shadowrun era? Have
>there been any great advances in this direction?

Not sure enough to be a canon answer.

>2. What are the colours of the UCAS army dress uniforms and fatigues?
>
>This one doesn't actually require a canon answer - just a knowledgeable
>one.

I;m not a military expert sorry...



>3. Are there any cultures with legends of "mystic rituals" or the like
>that a) involve human sacrifice and b) grant whoever conducts the
>sacrifice great power?


Big one that comes to mind is the Aztec culture. Human sacrifice was a
part of their religious ceremonies - think ripping human heart out of a
living victim. They'd treat the sacrifices real well until their
death. Kinda like fattening up the calf in a way. (This translates into
Aztech in shadowrun times). Celt Druids used sacrifices, but this was
willing sacrifice if I recall, but that varies by who you read really.



>==>Doc'
>(aka Mr. Freaky Big, Super-Dynamic Troll of Tomorrow)
>
>.sig Sauer
>__________________________________________________
>Do You Yahoo!?
>Bid and sell for free at http://auctions.yahoo.com
Message no. 2
From: IronRaven cyberraven@********.net
Subject: Questions of great importance (Steve, Jon, RA:S people
Date: Wed, 01 Sep 1999 21:04:28 -0400
At 16.32 09-01-99 -0700, you wrote:
>2. What are the colours of the UCAS army dress uniforms and fatigues?
>This one doesn't actually require a canon answer - just a knowledgeable
>one.

Good, becuase I don't think there are any.
I'm basing a lot of this off of existing patterns:

Rural/Temperate: A mottle of brown, black and green (Woodland)
Snowflauge: Black, grey and white in the same mix as woodland. Commonly
called "Urban", but it isn't the best for urban as it is too brite IMO, but
not too bad in winter environs. It does a hell of a job of blurring your
movements though ("Did he just reach for a gun?")
Subdued Urban: Black, dark grey, light grey in the same pattern as
woodland (a little more efective for city work IMO, available from US Cav
and others, but may be too dark for daylight operations)
Arctic: Either white or a mix of mostly white with some off-white/yellow
and a very pale greenish-grey
Desert: A "whirled" pattern of brown, pink and light green (surprisingly
effective in non-rocky deserts, ie, certain parts of the middle east) or a
six-color pattern of browns with white and balck "chocolate chips (better
for rocky deserts, like southern California). I also envision a mix of
tan, medium brown and dark brown in a woodland type pattern, but am aware
of no one who currently makes such a thing.
Blue: A mix of black, dark blue and medium blue, mainly sold as a novelty
pattern, but it does an OK job at night in urban terrains (it doesn't
siloutte very much), and may have some airborne insertation applications.
Tigerstripe: Horizontal stripes of a brown, green and black, VERY mixed
opinoin as to it's effectiveness. It seems to be a "pretty pattern" more
than anything else, but I've never sean SEA first hand.
Black: Great for intimidation, sucks at concealment day or night. A
moving, solid BLACK object stands out real fast, and you just siloutte your
life away.

Try www.uscav.com for imagery of most of these.

There are also some universal camoflauge patterns that are little more
than some brown and balck streaks (to break up the form) on a
light-coloured, but not bright, backgroudn that reflect envirometnal
colours well, but I don't know about thier effectiveness is urban environs.

>3. Are there any cultures with legends of "mystic rituals" or the like
>that a) involve human sacrifice and b) grant whoever conducts the

Many ancient cultures did. Babyloneans, Sumerians, Egyptians, Aztecs,
Celts, maybe the Romans (BIG maybe), a whole mess more. Basically, telling
the spirits how big of a badass you are. (Didn't always work- I wonder why?)



Kevin Dole, aka CyberRaven, aka IronRaven, aka Steel Tengu
http://members.xoom.com/iron_raven/
"Once again, we have spat in the face of Death and his second cousin,
Dismemberment."
"There are more things in heaven and earth, Horatio, than are dreamt of in
your philosophy."
Message no. 3
From: Starrngr@***.com Starrngr@***.com
Subject: Questions of great importance (Steve, Jon, RA:S people
Date: Wed, 1 Sep 1999 21:24:19 EDT
In a message dated 9/1/99 4:32:58 PM Pacific Daylight Time,
docwagon101@*****.com writes:

> 2. What are the colours of the UCAS army dress uniforms and fatigues?
>
> This one doesn't actually require a canon answer - just a knowledgeable
> one.

Full dress uniform is a OD green jacket and pants (W/ black stripe), light
green shirt with collar insignia and an OD tie plus hat.

Class B (or workaday uniforms) are much the same as full dress, just minus
the Jacket and tie. Optionally a garison cap can be worn instead of the
standard cap.

Field dress is fatuiges, normally in a woodland pattern, with the other
patterns (jungle, dessert, Arctic) being reserved for use under "combat"
conditions. They also usually have 2 large brest pockets, 2 lower pockets on
the shirt; the pants have 2 larger front pockets, 2 standard back pockets,
and 2 large "cargo" pockets on the front side of the thigh.
Message no. 4
From: IronRaven cyberraven@********.net
Subject: Questions of great importance (Steve, Jon, RA:S people
Date: Wed, 01 Sep 1999 22:42:49 -0400
At 18.47 09-01-99 -0700, you wrote:
>HM - where'd this come from (out of curiousity)?

It is how US-spec fatigues have been cut of decades, with minor changes.

> And what is the "urban
>cammo" pattern - if there is one?

I already mentioned it, but it is like woodland, but in white, grey and
black. Interesting stuff if you are moving, but stationary, it stands out
too much unless you are on a snowfield. And you silloute yourself on a
ridgeline or roof at night, hasta la-bye-bye. It is really brite white for
the most part, but some of that can be cut down by finding (good luck
unless you are in a military town or have a lot of bow hunters in your
area) a dergent that does NOT have UV brighteners in it (no need to glow).
I like using the trousers of this stuff (maybe a little bleached) with an
OD coat with a very little dark brown and white dappling in winter over
wool (I prefeer it to polypro- ever have that stuff melt on your skin? I
haven't but I don't want to.) and silk (warm, super thin, feather light and
nearly indestructable), but I live in evergreen forest country. "Look Ma,
I'm a pine tree." (And it actually works.)

http://www.uscav.com/Shop/ItemDetail.asp?stk_code=WA16884

they also have some other patterns:
http://www.uscav.com/Shop/itemdetail.asp?item=8&stk_code=WA16885
Has woodland and six-colour desert on the page, and links to 3-colour
desert and tiger on it.


Kevin Dole, aka CyberRaven, aka IronRaven, aka Steel Tengu
http://members.xoom.com/iron_raven/
"Once again, we have spat in the face of Death and his second cousin,
Dismemberment."
"There are more things in heaven and earth, Horatio, than are dreamt of in
your philosophy."
Message no. 5
From: Starrngr@***.com Starrngr@***.com
Subject: Questions of great importance (Steve, Jon, RA:S people
Date: Thu, 2 Sep 1999 03:22:59 EDT
In a message dated 9/1/99 6:48:28 PM Pacific Daylight Time,
docwagon101@*****.com writes:

> HM - where'd this come from (out of curiousity)? And what is the "urban
> cammo" pattern - if there is one?

My brother in law's closet. He was in the Army reserves, served in the Gulf
(But not during the gulf war... He was a bean counter and went over to
account for everything AFTER the shooting stopped!) Regular army units dont
really USE a urban pattern since they dont like fighting in urban areas per
se. Special forces probobly do, and I believe their's are Tiger stripes of
several shades of grey.
Message no. 6
From: Starrngr@***.com Starrngr@***.com
Subject: Questions of great importance (Steve, Jon, RA:S people
Date: Thu, 2 Sep 1999 03:23:05 EDT
In a message dated 9/1/99 9:14:17 PM Pacific Daylight Time,
docwagon101@*****.com writes:

> One more q. What's a "garrison cap"? For that matter, what's the
> standard cap?
>
Standard "Cap" looks like an officers hat, just the insignia is different. A
garrison cap is this little narrow thing that looks sort of like the paper
hats worn by the fry cooks at Mc Donalds. With the BDU's they wear OD Ball
caps.

> And another one. :) Would the UCAS troops guarding the Renraku Arcology
> be considered under combat conditions (and thus be wearing urban
> cammo), or standard conditions (with woodland cammo fatigues)?

Guarding, Probobly woodland. The whole point is to be visible to deter
"looters"... Anyone who actually goes into the arc would probobly be wearing
Urban...
Message no. 7
From: Starrngr@***.com Starrngr@***.com
Subject: Questions of great importance (Steve, Jon, RA:S people
Date: Thu, 2 Sep 1999 03:23:03 EDT
In a message dated 9/1/99 9:11:21 PM Pacific Daylight Time,
docwagon101@*****.com writes:

> > OD coat
>
> Query: "OD"?

OD .. Olive Drab. That Yechie green color all their uniforms USED to be made
out of... For example, go look at "Private Benjamin" staring Goldie Hawn (I
assume you can find it down in Oz..) those horrid green colors they wear?
thats OD Green.
Message no. 8
From: IronRaven cyberraven@********.net
Subject: Questions of great importance (Steve, Jon, RA:S people
Date: Thu, 02 Sep 1999 08:06:39 -0400
At 20.11 09-01-99 -0700, you wrote:
>Arcology. Parts of the arc are well lit, parts are black as night. You

If you want a solid colour, go with a dark slate grey or navy. Not to
dark, not to light, but it still has the solid colour problem.
If you want paterns, I would say go with subdued urban, maybe blue camo
(It's odd, but it stupid enough that it might work, I've never been able to
test it.), or maybe watch Aliens and use the stuff that the Marines were
wearing (I've never been able to find an exact match for that stuff
commerically, but it is an increadable pattern that I would love to
evaluate). Basically, you want to avoid being too light/bright, or you
will stand out int he shadows (as a rule it is better to be too dark than
too light).

>Btw, if black sucks so hard, why do people insist on using it? Or is
>that a Hollywood fallacy?

The purpose of the pattern is help break up your outline into an irregualr
one with natural colours and/or one that artifical sensors can't process
very well (that "night desert" plaid stuff is an example, which was the
first of the computer generated camos, which I expect to see more of in the
future to help screw with remote observation gear). Solid colours don't
work as well, because the human body is a pretty big object, when you think
about it. A solid blob of a certain colour stands out, especially black-
black is not a natural colour. It's just too dark, and too solid, and
shows your outline too well. This a especially present if you get siloutted
against the skyline.
Black is great for psyching people out (in theory, to me you just look
like so many target silouttes), but not for hiding.

>know how it goes. They're all wearing armoured bodysuits, plus armoured
>REVERSIBLE vests. What would be good camouflage patterns for them to be

Why? If the pattern on thier vests differs fromt he one on thier limbs,
all you are doing is highlighting the target zone. Pick one pattern and
stick with it. Part of my problem with the use of snowflauge as urban is
becuase most morons dump black LBE on top of it- just paint a target on
your helmet and get it over with.
Now, if EVERYTHING on thier outer layers (except for thier boots)
reversed, and if you could show a serious need for dual patterns, I'd say
go for it. But for urban work, no. Pick a nice, well dappled, dark
pattern, use the shadows (literally), and think about how you are moving,
and your troops willbe well garbed.
Now, if you them to be well dressed- selctive fire shotguns with grenade
launchers, auto carbines with underbarrel shotguns or grenade laucnhers, a
few suppressed SMGs, flash bangs, riot gas, smoke and concussion grenades,
and good sidearms. <g> (When I clear a room, I clear a room.)

I may also have a goody you might be interested in- it allows you to see
around corners and can be used as a Smartlink.



Kevin Dole, aka CyberRaven, aka IronRaven, aka Steel Tengu
http://members.xoom.com/iron_raven/
"Once again, we have spat in the face of Death and his second cousin,
Dismemberment."
"There are more things in heaven and earth, Horatio, than are dreamt of in
your philosophy."
Message no. 9
From: IronRaven cyberraven@********.net
Subject: Questions of great importance (Steve, Jon, RA:S people
Date: Thu, 02 Sep 1999 08:08:32 -0400
At 20.58 09-01-99 -0700, you wrote:
>Pssst...Kevin - this particular post was sent to Starrngr (also known

Ooops, it went to the list so I figured it was a greneral question.

>Query: "OD"?

Olive Drab- nasty army green.



Kevin Dole, aka CyberRaven, aka IronRaven, aka Steel Tengu
http://members.xoom.com/iron_raven/
"Once again, we have spat in the face of Death and his second cousin,
Dismemberment."
"There are more things in heaven and earth, Horatio, than are dreamt of in
your philosophy."
Message no. 10
From: Ereskanti@***.com Ereskanti@***.com
Subject: Questions of great importance (Steve, Jon, RA:S people
Date: Thu, 2 Sep 1999 08:45:45 EDT
I actually merged two posts here on the same topic.

In a message dated 9/1/1999 6:32:58 PM US Eastern Standard Time,
docwagon101@*****.com writes:

> 1. What constructions materials are used in the Shadowrun era? Have
> there been any great advances in this direction?

Plasticreet. Basically something with the pourability and durability
(erosion resistant) properties of Plastic, but the durability and versatility
of Concrete.

Duraplast. Another material I've heard mentioned in a book. Lightweight and
used as both material for a barrier/wall as well as a window.

Can't recall anything else at this time, sorry...

> 2. What are the colours of the UCAS army dress uniforms and fatigues?

Considering how many self-proclaimed or honest-to-god pros of this topic
there are on this list, I'll leave that for them ;-)

> This one doesn't actually require a canon answer - just a knowledgeable
> one.
>
> 3. Are there any cultures with legends of "mystic rituals" or the like
> that a) involve human sacrifice and b) grant whoever conducts the
> sacrifice great power?
>
> I'm looking for something where the killer is supposed to be the one
> getting the mystical "shot-in-the-arm" from the slaying.

Doc: You may actually want to consider many, if not ALL, of the Central
American to South Andean Highland "Tribes", ranging in time from from 2,000BC
to within the last century or so. Additionally, you may also want to
consider some of the NAN/Amerindians and their "Warrior Customs" concerning
such things as the hunting of a powerful animal (Wolf, Bear, Stag, Buffalo
even) and drinking of the blood that poored from the heart of the freshly
killed beast.

Also note that in some cultures removing the head of a victim and breathing
from the mouth meant that you were stealing its' spirit as well (South
Pacific and even some Toltec/Amazonian).

Orishan (Steve K, is this spelling/intent right? I can't recall) beliefs
also included such things as taking the hides of certain opponents and
wearing them into battle to instill fear (and I do mean more than just animal
hides here). BTW: Orishan are the ancestors of the Loa for the most part.

Greeks actually had similar practices as well, as did the Sumerian,
Babylonian and Phoenician where it came to drinking the blood of either an
opponent or a powerful beast in order to gain its' strength/spirit. I can't
honestly recall if the Romans' carried over the practice or not. And hell,
for that matter, I'm NOT going to go the distance to consider the earlier
kingdom ranges of Egypt.

This help any?

-K
Message no. 11
From: Ereskanti@***.com Ereskanti@***.com
Subject: Questions of great importance (Steve, Jon, RA:S people
Date: Thu, 2 Sep 1999 08:52:02 EDT
In a message dated 9/1/1999 11:14:17 PM US Eastern Standard Time,
docwagon101@*****.com writes:

>
> And another one. :) Would the UCAS troops guarding the Renraku Arcology
> be considered under combat conditions (and thus be wearing urban
> cammo), or standard conditions (with woodland cammo fatigues)?

Well, considering that people have been killed, many of them just UCAS
citizens, I'd say it would qualify as a "HOSTILE" situation to me. ;-P

-K (who isn't going to mention the activated gun turrets or missile
deployments systems right now... )
Message no. 12
From: Ereskanti@***.com Ereskanti@***.com
Subject: Questions of great importance (Steve, Jon, RA:S people
Date: Thu, 2 Sep 1999 08:52:45 EDT
In a message dated 9/1/1999 11:16:23 PM US Eastern Standard Time,
docwagon101@*****.com writes:

>
> Army transports (trucks and the like, as opposed to combat infantry
> transports) are painted "army green" in current time, correct? Does
> anyone know if the UCAS (SR canon again) uses the same paint for its
> transports?
> ==
Interesting, we just ran across a small convoy of about 4-5 vehicles in a
MUCH darker color, almost black-level green. Really different IMO.

-K
Message no. 13
From: Ereskanti@***.com Ereskanti@***.com
Subject: Questions of great importance (Steve, Jon, RA:S people
Date: Thu, 2 Sep 1999 08:59:57 EDT
In a message dated 9/2/1999 1:02:13 AM US Eastern Standard Time,
docwagon101@*****.com writes:

> Thanks for the input. In this case, though, concealment is everything.
>
> Same thing I asked Kevin. UCAS spec forces team going into the Renraku
> Arcology. Armoured bodysuits, reversible armoured vests. The arc is
> well-lit in places, dark in others. What's the best set of cammos for a
> situation like that?

Truthfully???

How about PolyPOV Ruthenium? Considering what the team would be doing and
where they are going, this is entirely possible.

-K
Message no. 14
From: IronRaven cyberraven@********.net
Subject: Questions of great importance (Steve, Jon, RA:S people
Date: Thu, 02 Sep 1999 10:44:35 -0400
At 22.23 09-01-99 -0700, you wrote:
>Yeah, but that doesn't help me. Why would spec forces or SEALs wear
>black? They don't need intimidation - they need concealment.

When you are door kicking and doing nothing else, you use it along with
gas mask, balacava and bright lights to get every thousandth of a second
hesitation out of your opponent you can.
Special units also sometimes where it for PR stuff becuase they are
expected to, and sometimes in the field for the same reason (black is SOOO
sexy), but it is a dumb reason IMO.

HOwever, UCAS gaurds on the outside of the Arc may use black for this
reason, and they would have most likely procured either intimidation-black
or some kind of urban pattern after the situation in Chigaco.




Kevin Dole, aka CyberRaven, aka IronRaven, aka Steel Tengu
http://members.xoom.com/iron_raven/
"Once again, we have spat in the face of Death and his second cousin,
Dismemberment."
"There are more things in heaven and earth, Horatio, than are dreamt of in
your philosophy."
Message no. 15
From: IronRaven cyberraven@********.net
Subject: Questions of great importance (Steve, Jon, RA:S people
Date: Thu, 02 Sep 1999 10:45:32 -0400
At 02.19 09-02-99 -0400, you wrote:
>A lot of times, bigger rounds will have enough energy surrounding them in
>the air to take heads right off people. It's one of the first things they

Really?
I've never had someone with a serious mad on for me and a 50 come after
me, but I've had rifle rounds (7.62x51) come close enough to clip hair and
it didn't even damage my hearing in that ear to detectable levels.
.50 cal puts out a lot more energy, but the bow wave is not going to have
a huge increase in force. Not enough to compormise skull integrity.
I'm just saying that I would want to see it, thats all.




Kevin Dole, aka CyberRaven, aka IronRaven, aka Steel Tengu
http://members.xoom.com/iron_raven/
"Once again, we have spat in the face of Death and his second cousin,
Dismemberment."
"There are more things in heaven and earth, Horatio, than are dreamt of in
your philosophy."
Message no. 16
From: IronRaven cyberraven@********.net
Subject: Questions of great importance (Steve, Jon, RA:S people
Date: Thu, 02 Sep 1999 10:46:17 -0400
At 23.27 09-01-99 -0700, you wrote:
>Err...I thought hydrostatic shock had been debunked as a myth.

It exists, and while there is one crowd who claims it doesn't have a
detectable effect, I can point to some salsa that used to be woodchucks and
fishers (a kind of weasel that will attack just about anything) that says
other wise. It has to do with resonance of the material, IIRC, and rigid
solids reactidifferently than more "liquidy" solids (like soft tissue)
does, and the compression of water in those tissues.
Some people claim it is a myth, and just as many argue otherwise.



Kevin Dole, aka CyberRaven, aka IronRaven, aka Steel Tengu
http://members.xoom.com/iron_raven/
"Once again, we have spat in the face of Death and his second cousin,
Dismemberment."
"There are more things in heaven and earth, Horatio, than are dreamt of in
your philosophy."
Message no. 17
From: IronRaven cyberraven@********.net
Subject: Questions of great importance (Steve, Jon, RA:S people
Date: Thu, 02 Sep 1999 10:46:29 -0400
At 23.27 09-01-99 -0700, you wrote:
>Err...I thought hydrostatic shock had been debunked as a myth.

It exists, and while there is one crowd who claims it doesn't have a
detectable effect, I can point to some salsa that used to be woodchucks and
fishers (a kind of weasel that will attack just about anything) that says
other wise. It has to do with resonance of the material, IIRC, and rigid
solids reactidifferently than more "liquidy" solids (like soft tissue)
does, and the compression of water in those tissues.
Some people claim it is a myth, and just as many argue otherwise.



Kevin Dole, aka CyberRaven, aka IronRaven, aka Steel Tengu
http://members.xoom.com/iron_raven/
"Once again, we have spat in the face of Death and his second cousin,
Dismemberment."
"There are more things in heaven and earth, Horatio, than are dreamt of in
your philosophy."
Message no. 18
From: IronRaven cyberraven@********.net
Subject: Questions of great importance (Steve, Jon, RA:S people
Date: Thu, 02 Sep 1999 10:53:36 -0400
At 08.59 09-02-99 EDT, you wrote:
>How about PolyPOV Ruthenium? Considering what the team would be doing and
>where they are going, this is entirely possible.

Hadn't actually thought of that. And rigid armour would make sense (light
to medium security) for special operations forces.
Whats the refresh rate on Ruthenium?


Kevin Dole, aka CyberRaven, aka IronRaven, aka Steel Tengu
http://members.xoom.com/iron_raven/
"Once again, we have spat in the face of Death and his second cousin,
Dismemberment."
"There are more things in heaven and earth, Horatio, than are dreamt of in
your philosophy."
Message no. 19
From: TalonMail@***.com TalonMail@***.com
Subject: Questions of great importance (Steve, Jon, RA:S people
Date: Thu, 2 Sep 1999 10:54:53 EDT
Doc wrote:
>>>1. What constructions materials are used in the Shadowrun era? Have
there been any great advances in this direction?<<<

Well, we often refer to "ferrocrete" and "plasteel" in fiction, so we
can
infer there are some more advanced construction materials in 2060. I imagine
most construction advances are a result of greater and greater computer
processing power for things like CAD/CAM design of buildings, allowing
architects to "virtually" design a building in the Matrix, even "walk
through
it" and test its design with the right algorithms. In fact, having a team of
runners "acquire" the virtual model of an existing structure from the
architect's files might make an interesting prelude to a shadowrun : )

>>>2. What are the colours of the UCAS army dress uniforms and
fatigues?<<<

I suspect Jon Szeto could answer this one better than I, but I've always
assumed they're the same as the old United States Army. Bob Charrette's last
Shadowrun novel (the name escapes me at the moment) might also have some
information, since the Army is fairly heavily involved.

>>>3. Are there any cultures with legends of "mystic rituals" or the
like
that a) involve human sacrifice and b) grant whoever conducts the
sacrifice great power?<<<

Honestly the "sacrifice people to gain great magical power" thing is largely
a combination of urban legend, Hollywood horror, modern fantasy literature
(filled with evil priests and wizards), and leftover memes from a European
culture influenced by the Inquisition looking to burn "witches." Human
sacrifice is always a religious ritual in the culture that practiced it
(including the Aztecs and the Celts), a means of placating and "feeding" the
gods.

Of course, in the Sixth World, there's nothing to say that Hollywood culture
and urban myth WON'T influence the Awakened. If (say) a corrupted magician
seriously believes in the "oooh scary black magic Satanism" found in the
horror movies (or the Chthulu Mythos, or something similar), then that sort
of "window dressing" may be a valid magical tradition for him. Many of the
magical serial-killer types in SR get their start this way, it's pretty much
how I imagined Azroth (from Awakenings).

Hope that helps,
Steve

Talon Studio
http://members.aol.com/talonmail
Message no. 20
From: Patrick Goodman remo@***.net
Subject: Questions of great importance (Steve, Jon, RA:S people
Date: Thu, 02 Sep 1999 10:23:13 -0500
> Whats the refresh rate on Ruthenium?

Pretty damn quick, as I recall. I don't have SHADOWTECH anywhere close to
me at the moment, but I seem to recall that it could change in small
fractions of a second. The local group hasn't met him yet, but there's a
baddie in my game world somewhere with a ruthenium suit of the type being
discussed, and as I interpret things, it's about Predator-fast. You're
still going to get a blur when he's moving, but when he's holding still,
it's spooky.

Your in-game mileage may vary, of course.

Patrick
Message no. 21
From: Sommers sommers@*****.edu
Subject: Questions of great importance (Steve, Jon, RA:S people
Date: Thu, 02 Sep 1999 12:29:33 -0400
At 10:54 AM 9/2/99 -0400, you wrote:
>Doc wrote:
> >>>1. What constructions materials are used in the Shadowrun era? Have
>there been any great advances in this direction?<<<
>
>Well, we often refer to "ferrocrete" and "plasteel" in fiction, so
we can
>infer there are some more advanced construction materials in 2060. I imagine
>most construction advances are a result of greater and greater computer
>processing power for things like CAD/CAM design of buildings, allowing
>architects to "virtually" design a building in the Matrix, even "walk
through
>it" and test its design with the right algorithms. In fact, having a team of
>runners "acquire" the virtual model of an existing structure from the
>architect's files might make an interesting prelude to a shadowrun : )

I've always assumed that ferrocrete referred to newer forms of concrete
that are embedded with different forms of ferrous metals to increase their
durability. Its the same concept as reinforcing concrete poured into a mold
with steel rebars, but the metal laces the entire structure for all of the
preformed parts. Plasteel is similar except that metals beams are
reinforced by various polymers.

The whole CAD/CAM building idea is just a continuation of current
development. The Boeing 777 was the first commercial craft designed
completely on the computer before any prototype was built. Each subsystem
was loaded onto the main system and assembled with the rest of the
components. When it was ready, they ran a program (I think it was called
Bob) that simulated a maintenance worker, who crawled all around the plane.
From there, they figured out what would be hard to access and changed the
esign to make it easier to get into.

Doing this for a building would actually be easier, especially with the
simsense rigs from the Matrix doing the job in true 3-D.

Sommers
Insert witty quote here.
Message no. 22
From: Starrngr@***.com Starrngr@***.com
Subject: Questions of great importance (Steve, Jon, RA:S people
Date: Thu, 2 Sep 1999 15:22:35 EDT
In a message dated 9/2/99 12:45:55 AM Pacific Daylight Time,
docwagon101@*****.com writes:

> You mean the stuff us plebs know as "army green"? :)

Yup.
Message no. 23
From: Starrngr@***.com Starrngr@***.com
Subject: Questions of great importance (Steve, Jon, RA:S people
Date: Thu, 2 Sep 1999 15:22:50 EDT
In a message dated 9/2/99 8:22:26 AM Pacific Daylight Time, remo@***.net
writes:

> Pretty damn quick, as I recall. I don't have SHADOWTECH anywhere close to
> me at the moment, but I seem to recall that it could change in small
> fractions of a second. The local group hasn't met him yet, but there's a
> baddie in my game world somewhere with a ruthenium suit of the type being
> discussed, and as I interpret things, it's about Predator-fast. You're
> still going to get a blur when he's moving, but when he's holding still,
> it's spooky.
>
Pg 94 "Once Curent is applied, the response is almost immediate, with a delay
of less than one hundredth of a second" The big problem is that at the
bottomof the page "Any armor modified to include a Ruthenium polymer surface
reduces its impact and balistic ratings in half (round down)" In the shadow
talk Hatchetman also warns that the "gel pack" that powers the suit is only
good for about 30 minutes, though that is one I could see the military
finding a way around. The other, BIG concern is that it wont shield you from
Radar, Ultrasound, or Thermo... So your big concern would be Deus's drone
toys.

> Your in-game mileage may vary, of course.
Message no. 24
From: IronRaven cyberraven@********.net
Subject: Questions of great importance (Steve, Jon, RA:S people
Date: Thu, 02 Sep 1999 15:26:42 -0400
At 11.49 09-02-99 -0700, you wrote:
>we are talking realy big rounds like in the 50mm - 125

No, I believe we are talking .50 caliber/12.7mm machineguns here.

The arguement that you can kill someone by pulping thier head with the bow
wave of a 12.7mm MG just doesn't jive with physics. That is a result of
the air in front of the bullet getting out of it's way, and air just
doesn't build up/retain (not sure whow to describe it) that kind of force
int he time we are talking about (a few thousands of a second). IF tehre
was that much energy involved, you probably wouldn't need tracer ammo
becuase you could follow the pockets of ignition by eye, but you also be
throwing a few tons of recoil backwards, and having fired Barretts and
McMillian .50 caliber rifles, I KNOW that isn't the case becuase my
shoulder is still place.
At maybe a few feet, the muzzle gases have that much force, but within a
couple meters, it won't be anything more than a harsh wind I'm willing to bet.




Kevin Dole, aka CyberRaven, aka IronRaven, aka Steel Tengu
http://members.xoom.com/iron_raven/
"Once again, we have spat in the face of Death and his second cousin,
Dismemberment."
"There are more things in heaven and earth, Horatio, than are dreamt of in
your philosophy."
Message no. 25
From: Ereskanti@***.com Ereskanti@***.com
Subject: Questions of great importance (Steve, Jon, RA:S people
Date: Thu, 2 Sep 1999 16:01:26 EDT
In a message dated 9/2/1999 9:20:08 AM US Eastern Standard Time,
mockingbird@*********.com writes:

>
> The villian in the latest Zorro movie (Antonios Bandanas) makes a
> comment about a group who believed something like this. Maybe that
> would be a good starting place.

Okay, I'm hoping it was a typo...but "Bandanas" has given me all sorts of
goofy visual images here....

-K (who enjoyed that laugh)
Message no. 26
From: IronRaven cyberraven@********.net
Subject: Questions of great importance (Steve, Jon, RA:S people
Date: Thu, 02 Sep 1999 16:05:55 -0400
At 11.44 09-02-99 +0200, you wrote:
>In the early 1970s, the US Army's MERDC (Mobility Equipment Research &
>Development Command) developed a camouflage scheme that had twelve basic

Gurth, do you know of any place I can get RGB values for the MERDC colours
and their various combinations?


Kevin Dole, aka CyberRaven, aka IronRaven, aka Steel Tengu
http://members.xoom.com/iron_raven/
"Once again, we have spat in the face of Death and his second cousin,
Dismemberment."
"There are more things in heaven and earth, Horatio, than are dreamt of in
your philosophy."
Message no. 27
From: IronRaven cyberraven@********.net
Subject: Questions of great importance (Steve, Jon, RA:S people
Date: Thu, 02 Sep 1999 20:05:55 -0400
At 11.44 09-02-99 +0200, you wrote:
>In the early 1970s, the US Army's MERDC (Mobility Equipment Research &
>Development Command) developed a camouflage scheme that had twelve basic

Gurth, do you know of any place I can get RGB values for the MERDC colours
and their various combinations?


Kevin Dole, aka CyberRaven, aka IronRaven, aka Steel Tengu
http://members.xoom.com/iron_raven/
"Once again, we have spat in the face of Death and his second cousin,
Dismemberment."
"There are more things in heaven and earth, Horatio, than are dreamt of in
your philosophy."
Message no. 28
From: Ereskanti@***.com Ereskanti@***.com
Subject: Questions of great importance (Steve, Jon, RA:S people
Date: Thu, 2 Sep 1999 16:19:28 EDT
In a message dated 9/2/1999 11:30:21 AM US Eastern Standard Time,
sommers@*****.edu writes:

>
> The whole CAD/CAM building idea is just a continuation of current
> development. The Boeing 777 was the first commercial craft designed
> completely on the computer before any prototype was built. Each subsystem
> was loaded onto the main system and assembled with the rest of the
> components. When it was ready, they ran a program (I think it was called
> Bob) that simulated a maintenance worker, who crawled all around the
plane.
> From there, they figured out what would be hard to access and changed the
> esign to make it easier to get into.
>
> Doing this for a building would actually be easier, especially with the
> simsense rigs from the Matrix doing the job in true 3-D.

Okay, mild story time here, with a question. Did *anyone* else see that show
on Discovery/The Learning Channel concerning "One Step Beyond" or something.
It had Kate Mulgrew (Kathryn Janeway of ST:Voyager) doing the voice/narration.

Anyway, there was something *really* cool in it that I have to admit I was
shocked to see. It had a setup that could build models out of
epoxy-polymer/resin using a laser. The laser would trace the outline in the
resin, and whereever the resin traced would solidy. The layer was lowered
down, and the laser system continued on its' merry work. In about 2-3 hours
I think it said they had a too-specification model of the space shuttle
(exterior) ready for usage in other places (like wind tunnels or advanced
rendering concepts). It was cool as I could imagine and wondered if this
kind material and setup could be done as a "shop" in SR.

I was imagining using this as the setup for doing simpler, more impact
related, armors, possible bod 0/1 drone chassis, or even just cases/"extras"
that a runner would need.

Hell, with something like they were showing I was imagining someone coming up
with a custom-designed gun that would be fully functional (if just light
powered) and being "built" inside the casing to something else. Made to form
gear....

-K
Message no. 29
From: Ereskanti@***.com Ereskanti@***.com
Subject: Questions of great importance (Steve, Jon, RA:S people
Date: Thu, 2 Sep 1999 16:30:27 EDT
In a message dated 9/2/1999 3:08:32 PM US Eastern Standard Time,
cyberraven@********.net writes:

> >In the early 1970s, the US Army's MERDC (Mobility Equipment Research &
> >Development Command) developed a camouflage scheme that had twelve basic
>
> Gurth, do you know of any place I can get RGB values for the MERDC colours
> and their various combinations?

Can I make a suggestion? Take a *GOOD QUALITY* picture of the same (from
whatever source you want too). Import the picture at the best quality your
computer can support and then use the "ink dropper" tool to take a
"sample"
of said color and place into your color-control pallette that *most* of the
newer/better art/photo programs have these days. Select the color in
question after that and go to the color/scheme controls from there. In many
of those programs (I know Corel can do it for instance), the actual RGB
values will be highlighted in the boxes at that point.

-K (who gets lots of color codes that way...its' not always perfect, but it
does help)
Message no. 30
From: IronRaven cyberraven@********.net
Subject: Questions of great importance (Steve, Jon, RA:S people
Date: Thu, 02 Sep 1999 16:42:11 -0400
At 16.05 09-02-99 -0400, you wrote:
>for a rifle. What you're talking about is "hydrostatic shock" and while
>it's based on real physics, it doesn't actually work the way people claim
>it works. In other words, it's bunk.

Marc, you've said this before, and you didn't answer my question the last
time you said it:
If hydrostatics don't work, then how come things like the ACR dart loads
devloped by AAI and Steyr, and the 4.7 mm round for the G11, perform as
well if not better in test against various test media (including a test on
Strassberg goats conducted after the close of the tests, in France) as the
standard 62-gr 5.56 NATO? The G11 rounds are no faster than 5.56, are
smaller, and weigh less. The flechette loads aren't faster, but they are
super light and they have almost no frontal area in compairison to other
rounds.
Now, I know about the gall stone treatment. That simple claim does not
take into acount differences between mineral deposits in the body, live
hard tissue and live soft tissue, in the areas of natural resonance,
elasticity, and the like. It leaves out the fact that the energy
transfeered is less than that of modern rilfe round, and doesn't (accord to
the folks I've talked to) start at a maximum level, but insteads builds
from zero, while rifle rounds are rather sudden. The shock waves are
focused on a relatively focused area, while being shot is more of a full
body experince. You also didn't mention that women who are pregnant aren't
given that treatment, according to the folks I talked to (a couple RNs and
an MD- I've come to know my local ED staff pretty well over the years).
I'm not an expert in physiology, I only have enough knowledge for what I
do and to know where to stick a knife for the best effect. I don't know a
lot of physics, or how shockwaves effect soft tissue. What I do know is
that I've never have shot critters of the same species and roughly the same
size, in the same area. I've never ahd the get up with .223s, but I have
had them get up with .30-30s and 7.62x39 loads that produce the same amount
of force (mass x accelleration) acrss the total frontal area with
low-expansion bullets. If it isn't hydrostatic shock (which you have
claimed), or the effects of a stretch cavity (which I recall you also
stating), and in all cases they exited the main body, so it sure ain't
pentration, what the heck was it?


Kevin Dole, aka CyberRaven, aka IronRaven, aka Steel Tengu
http://members.xoom.com/iron_raven/
"Once again, we have spat in the face of Death and his second cousin,
Dismemberment."
"There are more things in heaven and earth, Horatio, than are dreamt of in
your philosophy."
Message no. 31
From: Ereskanti@***.com Ereskanti@***.com
Subject: Questions of great importance (Steve, Jon, RA:S people
Date: Thu, 2 Sep 1999 22:50:52 EDT
In a message dated 9/2/1999 4:08:31 PM US Eastern Standard Time,
renouf@********.com writes:

> > Anyway, there was something *really* cool in it that I have to admit I
was
> > shocked to see. It had a setup that could build models out of
> > epoxy-polymer/resin using a laser. The laser would trace the outline in
> the
> > resin, and whereever the resin traced would solidy. The layer was
lowered
> > down, and the laser system continued on its' merry work.
>
> It's called stereo-lithography. It's a pretty keen. My wife
> worked with one in one of the labs she worked at here at the University of
> Michigan. It was used for rapid prototyping of parts for the auto
> industry.

Yes Marc, thank you very much. I could NOT remember the name of it, but
you've hit the nail on the head. On that note here though, could your wife
perhaps give you some suggestions as to maybe what could NOT be made from
such stuff?

-K
Message no. 32
From: Ereskanti@***.com Ereskanti@***.com
Subject: Questions of great importance (Steve, Jon, RA:S people
Date: Thu, 2 Sep 1999 22:55:23 EDT
In a message dated 9/2/1999 9:10:55 PM US Eastern Standard Time,
docwagon101@*****.com writes:

> As I said before, toys is EVERYTHING to this team. Expense means
> nothing. Of COURSE they'd have ruthenium polymers.
> Errr...this question may be out of line, but...
> Are ruthenium polymers getting an update in M&M?

I would think that *IF* they are going to get an update, then it will be in
either M&M or Cannon Companion, as those will be the principle "TOY" books.

-K
Message no. 33
From: Ereskanti@***.com Ereskanti@***.com
Subject: Questions of great importance (Steve, Jon, RA:S people
Date: Thu, 2 Sep 1999 22:58:28 EDT
In a message dated 9/2/1999 9:20:02 PM US Eastern Standard Time,
docwagon101@*****.com writes:

> That's nice - but none of these guys ever go into - or even
> particularly close - to the arc. That's Red Samurai turf.

Ah, it may be, but the streets and surrounding cityscape are *THEIR* turf
now. Remember, the military has exchanged things in the RA:S material.
They're now lords of the BADASS on the block. Besides, I would smell massive
political maneuvering going on, and I'm sure that people with clout (higher
up military/politicians) are going to try and rub people wrong when and
wherever they can.

> And wouldn't it make sense for the army to try to keep an illusion of a
> semblance of a tad of a milligram of normality? :) In which case they'd
> be using woodland cammo fatigues, right?

Nope. They might keep the normality, but you have to remember that at least
one aircraft has been shot down prior to its' landing on the arc. As long as
it was in the air, it was in UCAS airspace. Fine Line legalities like this
is how one defines the battlefield of politics. And politics (frightening to
this like this) are one of the button pushes in combat/warfare.

-K
Message no. 34
From: IronRaven cyberraven@********.net
Subject: Questions of great importance (Steve, Jon, RA:S people
Date: Thu, 02 Sep 1999 23:02:39 -0400
At 19.10 09-02-99 -0700, you wrote:
>Errr...this question may be out of line, but...
>Are ruthenium polymers getting an update in M&M?

Here's an even bigger question: Does anyone actually have M&M yet?

Take what you've got a run with it, man.


Kevin Dole, aka CyberRaven, aka IronRaven, aka Steel Tengu
http://members.xoom.com/iron_raven/
"Once again, we have spat in the face of Death and his second cousin,
Dismemberment."
"There are more things in heaven and earth, Horatio, than are dreamt of in
your philosophy."
Message no. 35
From: Starrngr@***.com Starrngr@***.com
Subject: Questions of great importance (Steve, Jon, RA:S people
Date: Thu, 2 Sep 1999 23:22:31 EDT
In a message dated 9/2/99 1:02:53 PM Pacific Daylight Time, Ereskanti@***.com
writes:

> > The villian in the latest Zorro movie (Antonios Bandanas) makes a
> > comment about a group who believed something like this. Maybe that
> > would be a good starting place.
>
> Okay, I'm hoping it was a typo...but "Bandanas" has given me all sorts of
> goofy visual images here....
>
> -K (who enjoyed that laugh)
>
Oh goodness, K. Now you've got me thinking about that.... Zorro meets Ryoga
Hibiki of Ranma 1/2....
Message no. 36
From: IronRaven cyberraven@********.net
Subject: Questions of great importance (Steve, Jon, RA:S people
Date: Thu, 02 Sep 1999 23:00:56 -0400
At 19.02 09-02-99 -0700, you wrote:
>Door-kicking is the LAST thing the team wants to do, as I'm sure anyone

With what I know of the Arc, I'd say going in in hard armour and openly
armed would be almost as dumb. Besides, if they are over confident inthier
toys, why not have them try it.

>So you see them as considering guarding the exterior of the arc a
>combat assignment?

Yep. I'd have classed Chicago as a combat assignment.

>Again, which urban pattern? Urban urban or subdued urban?

Your call. Make one up!


Kevin Dole, aka CyberRaven, aka IronRaven, aka Steel Tengu
http://members.xoom.com/iron_raven/
"Once again, we have spat in the face of Death and his second cousin,
Dismemberment."
"There are more things in heaven and earth, Horatio, than are dreamt of in
your philosophy."
Message no. 37
From: Ereskanti@***.com Ereskanti@***.com
Subject: Questions of great importance (Steve, Jon, RA:S people
Date: Fri, 3 Sep 1999 00:12:37 EDT
In a message dated 9/2/1999 10:52:21 PM US Eastern Standard Time,
cyberraven@********.net writes:

> Here's an even bigger question: Does anyone actually have M&M yet?
>
> Take what you've got a run with it, man.
>
No one does ATM...though I suppose the drafts and such are in final copy in
Chicago somewhere...

-K
Message no. 38
From: Starrngr@***.com Starrngr@***.com
Subject: Questions of great importance (Steve, Jon, RA:S people
Date: Fri, 3 Sep 1999 03:21:25 EDT
In a message dated 9/2/99 7:40:50 PM Pacific Daylight Time, remo@***.net
writes:

> I think it's out on video, even in Australia, Doc'. It's extremely
> enjoyable; I had a marvelous time (and Catherine Zeta-Jones is the finest
> export ever from Wales).
>
> Basically, the man responsible for killing the brother of Banderas's
> character has a chat with him, telling him of a tribe who cannibalized
their
> enemies to gain their power. This is just before he brings out his
> brother's head in a large jar.
>
> Captain Love was a despicable sort, and a great deal of fun as the villain.
>
> > Btw, wasn't Antonio Banderas Zorro? I.E. the hero?
>
> Antonio was the hero, but he wasn't Zorro. Exactly. The phrasing of
> Mockingbird's message was a little wonky.

Its sort of a passing of the torch movie as well. Antonio and Anthony Quinn
are BOTH Zorro. Short form is that the Old Zorro finaly gets captured, and
sent to prison... but eventually escapes after like 10-15 years. Antonio's
charecter starts out as a common bandit, meets up with Quinn, and eventually
becomes the New Zorro under Quinn's tutalage.
Message no. 39
From: IronRaven cyberraven@********.net
Subject: Questions of great importance (Steve, Jon, RA:S people
Date: Fri, 03 Sep 1999 08:22:12 -0400
At 19.56 09-02-99 -0700, you wrote:
>Does ANYONE know what ruthenium polymers look like when they're not
>active? This one's going to be important if I'm going to use them. If

Most likely, what ever image they were showing when they were turned off.
Either that, or it goes to a random pattern with periodic cycling to
prevent burn-in, like a screen-saver. ("Micheals, the Captain has informed
me that your armour-saver may be considered grounds for sexual harassment.
Change it, then give me 50!")




Kevin Dole, aka CyberRaven, aka IronRaven, aka Steel Tengu
http://members.xoom.com/iron_raven/
"Once again, we have spat in the face of Death and his second cousin,
Dismemberment."
"There are more things in heaven and earth, Horatio, than are dreamt of in
your philosophy."
Message no. 40
From: IronRaven cyberraven@********.net
Subject: Questions of great importance (Steve, Jon, RA:S people
Date: Fri, 03 Sep 1999 08:24:01 -0400
At 20.17 09-02-99 -0700, you wrote:
>You're right - it IS rather nasty. :)

It is not a nasty colour. It just doesn't work well with a lot of
people's complexions. You need to be a Nuclear Winter for it to look good.

>Why on earth did they ever choose that colour?

Cuase it works in some many different enviroments.


Kevin Dole, aka CyberRaven, aka IronRaven, aka Steel Tengu
http://members.xoom.com/iron_raven/
"Once again, we have spat in the face of Death and his second cousin,
Dismemberment."
"There are more things in heaven and earth, Horatio, than are dreamt of in
your philosophy."
Message no. 41
From: IronRaven cyberraven@********.net
Subject: Questions of great importance (Steve, Jon, RA:S people
Date: Fri, 03 Sep 1999 09:06:41 -0400
At 22.27 09-02-99 -0700, you wrote:
>light or medium security before. Would they go for fully-enclosed
>helmets in order to take full advantage of ruthenium cover? Or would

Enclosed, with sensors inthe helmet (sight, eco location, radar, hearing,
IFF, et al) tied into a datajack, similiar to the way a rigger uses vehicel
sensors. Not sure of the mechanics, though.


Kevin Dole, aka CyberRaven, aka IronRaven, aka Steel Tengu
http://members.xoom.com/iron_raven/
"Once again, we have spat in the face of Death and his second cousin,
Dismemberment."
"There are more things in heaven and earth, Horatio, than are dreamt of in
your philosophy."
Message no. 42
From: IronRaven cyberraven@********.net
Subject: Questions of great importance (Steve, Jon, RA:S people
Date: Fri, 03 Sep 1999 09:06:39 -0400
At 20.30 09-02-99 -0700, you wrote:
>Eh? What pattern was that? Is it on the web somewhere? (I'd check it

Look around you're area book stores for the "Colonial Marine Technical
Manual"- several pictures int here. Basically, a very pale urban-type
pattern, but with a yellowish-grey, a medium grey, and a light greenish
grey, IIRC.

>Plaid? Serious? Wouldn't a regular pattern be just as bad as a solid
>colour?

It's tight enough that screwes with how the NVD sees and displays you.
It's counter intutive, but it is supposed to work.

>LBE?

Load
Bearing
Equipment

Your belt, your suspendors or vest, the pouchs there hung, and your pack.

>dissuaded from using that, but I think it's still an interesting idea.
>But would it be a GOOD idea?

I would thinkit wouldi nterfeer with anything like a free-floating barrel,
but since SR doesn't get that picky, all I can say is- ewwww......
Thanks for the idea. <Raven reacehs over, pulls the backup Colt M-30 off
of the rack and starts looking to see if he has a spare grenade grenade
laucnher and link anywhere, thinking he saw one next to the gyromounts>

>As for weaponry - standard are suppressed SMGs with EX Exp, APDS and

Explosive ammo go BANG. Defeats the purpose of suppressors.

>Honto? Do tell...

I'll post the blurb and address for the full thing ina another message,
under the title "Smartsight"


Kevin Dole, aka CyberRaven, aka IronRaven, aka Steel Tengu
http://members.xoom.com/iron_raven/
"Once again, we have spat in the face of Death and his second cousin,
Dismemberment."
"There are more things in heaven and earth, Horatio, than are dreamt of in
your philosophy."
Message no. 43
From: Ereskanti@***.com Ereskanti@***.com
Subject: Questions of great importance (Steve, Jon, RA:S people
Date: Fri, 3 Sep 1999 13:47:58 EDT
In a message dated 9/3/1999 7:22:57 AM US Eastern Standard Time,
cyberraven@********.net writes:

>
> Most likely, what ever image they were showing when they were turned off.
> Either that, or it goes to a random pattern with periodic cycling to
> prevent burn-in, like a screen-saver. ("Micheals, the Captain has informed
> me that your armour-saver may be considered grounds for sexual harassment.
> Change it, then give me 50!")

I like this last part, from a purely "what if" POV. I do think however that
Ruthenium tends to remain in whatever its' last color sequence was.

-K
Message no. 44
From: IronRaven cyberraven@********.net
Subject: Questions of great importance (Steve, Jon, RA:S people
Date: Fri, 03 Sep 1999 15:09:41 -0400
At 11.06 09-03-99 -0400, you wrote:
>force (m*a), think of energy (m*v^2). It's the v-squared term that you

You are forgetting frontal area for your energy transfeer- m*v^2*Pi*r^2.
IIRC, that plays an significant role.

> And I've never shot anything with a .30-30 and had it get up.

It's only ever happened to me twice, and they were both front-on with
canines.


Kevin Dole, aka CyberRaven, aka IronRaven, aka Steel Tengu
http://members.xoom.com/iron_raven/
"Once again, we have spat in the face of Death and his second cousin,
Dismemberment."
"There are more things in heaven and earth, Horatio, than are dreamt of in
your philosophy."
Message no. 45
From: IronRaven cyberraven@********.net
Subject: Questions of great importance (Steve, Jon, RA:S people
Date: Fri, 03 Sep 1999 15:52:12 -0400
At 13.47 09-03-99 EDT, you wrote:
>> me that your armour-saver may be considered grounds for sexual harassment.
>> Change it, then give me 50!")
>I like this last part, from a purely "what if" POV. I do think however that


It was just a fun throw away, and nothing more.
From a technical point of view, unless you are in an area with LOTS of EM
static in the air (ie, standing under a radio transmitter, a power plant,
taking your socks out of the dryer), the pattern should stay the same.


Kevin Dole, aka CyberRaven, aka IronRaven, aka Steel Tengu
http://members.xoom.com/iron_raven/
"Once again, we have spat in the face of Death and his second cousin,
Dismemberment."
"There are more things in heaven and earth, Horatio, than are dreamt of in
your philosophy."
Message no. 46
From: Ereskanti@***.com Ereskanti@***.com
Subject: Questions of great importance (Steve, Jon, RA:S people
Date: Sat, 4 Sep 1999 12:56:44 EDT
In a message dated 9/3/1999 12:43:16 PM US Eastern Standard Time,
Paul@********.demon.co.uk writes:

>
> That green is also used on most helicopters now (cue sightings of "black
> helicopters"). The paint's formulated to minimise the infrared signature of
> whatever it's applied to.

Paul, would this qualify as at least *part* of the RAM coating technology
that is being mimicked in the Rigger-2 then?

-K
Message no. 47
From: Ereskanti@***.com Ereskanti@***.com
Subject: Questions of great importance (Steve, Jon, RA:S people
Date: Sat, 4 Sep 1999 13:18:06 EDT
In a message dated 9/3/1999 4:11:21 PM US Eastern Standard Time,
Paul@********.demon.co.uk writes:

>
> >Not if it was at an altitude of less than 1,200 m. See Corporate
Download,
> >page 11, in the right-hand column.
>
> Where did it come down? Renraku flinging burning aircraft wreckage into
> the UCAS is actionable :)

As would any flaming wreckage landing in UCAS territory...

-K
Message no. 48
From: Ereskanti@***.com Ereskanti@***.com
Subject: Questions of great importance (Steve, Jon, RA:S people
Date: Sat, 4 Sep 1999 21:28:23 EDT
In a message dated 9/4/1999 1:41:50 PM US Eastern Standard Time,
gurth@******.nl writes:

> > Paul, would this qualify as at least *part* of the RAM coating technology
> > that is being mimicked in the Rigger-2 then?
>
> I'm not Paul, but I don't think this would work against radar, or even
> give any noticable effects under Shadowrun rules; if you really want to
> use it for more than just flavor, I'd say it gives the vehicle a +1
> Signature modifier against thermographic sensors only (and since vehicle
> sensors are a lot more than just thermal, the bonus wouldn't work against
> them).

Which btw Gurth, is saying "Yes" in response to my question. I said *part*
of the idea behind RAM, not all of it. Because of SR's abstraction of the
rules, RAM assists in all parts of the vehicle's signature, not just a small
part of it.

-K
Message no. 49
From: IronRaven cyberraven@********.net
Subject: Questions of great importance (Steve, Jon, RA:S people
Date: Tue, 07 Sep 1999 08:26:41 -0400
At 22.49 09-06-99 -0700, you wrote:
>>>take a bit of a beating) with an underbarrel grenade launcher. I was
>> Not really, IMHO. I can't see many snipers being keen on the idea.
>Why not?

Becuase there are questions about how the barrel would be stressed.
Anything touching the barrel changes the harmonics of the barrel, and
usually not for the better. Anything placing a downward pull, as many
grenade launcher mounts with weight (ie, the launcher and a shell) on them
do, can effect your point of impact by pulling your muzzle down.
However, if the barrel was in a tubular free-float, as you would do with
an AR-15/M-16, Stoner SR-25 or Armalite AR-10 (the last two are AR-15s on
steroids and built for 7.62NATO class rounds), you could design a mount
that works off the tube. And it has been done by a couple of outfits, and
IIRC some of either Maimi PD or Dade County's SWAT snipers use that very
combo for certain applications (rifle for direct applications, tear gas,
smoke and flash-bangs for less direct actions, is my guess). You would
want to go with a long leged bipod that is mounted on the sides of the
forearm tube, similiar to the WA-2000 or the FAMAS, but that would be
easily enough done.
Problem is, this works only for one family of rifles. You couldn't do
this with say a PSG-1, much less any bolt action. And for most
applications, why would you want to? I can see building bigger versions of
most carbines (ie SR-25 to the M-16) in SR, especially for bigger guys
(orks, trolls, the guy who starts his bench press reps with an engine
block), and fitting them with grenade launchers, though.


Kevin Dole, aka CyberRaven, aka IronRaven, aka Steel Tengu
http://members.xoom.com/iron_raven/
"Once again, we have spat in the face of Death and his second cousin,
Dismemberment."
"There are more things in heaven and earth, Horatio, than are dreamt of in
your philosophy."
Message no. 50
From: IronRaven cyberraven@********.net
Subject: Questions of great importance (Steve, Jon, RA:S people
Date: Tue, 07 Sep 1999 10:23:08 -0400
At 23.57 09-06-99 -0700, you wrote:
>Now I'm guessing that a free-floating barrel is what's used with rifles

Nope- it means that little to nothing is touching the barrel, and thus
damping it's natural vibrations on firing. It isn't much space, you only
need to be able to slip a crisp bill betweent he barrel and it's bed
without hanging. It improves the accuracy of most rilfes, and degrades it
in a microscopic percentage. (The funny thing is, most of the time, you
can't tell without actually trying it in the first place.)

>that wouldn't cover military rifles that AREN'T designed to be broken
>down and ARE designed to be banged around a bit (like the Walther in

Oh, hell yes. The US Army's M-24 has a free-float, IIRC so does the
USMC's M-40, and I'm pretty sure that the Parker and Hale that the Brits
use has one as well. About the only production precision rifles that don't
have a free-float are the Barretts (a VERY special application), H&Ks and
the M-21, and that is becuase as a rule (the AR-15 family is the
exception) it is very hard if not impossible to free-float a semi-auto.

>SR). AND that would mean the GL wouldn't interfere with it much. Is
>that the case?

IRL or in SR? IRL, it depends on how you mount it (I mentioned that is a
post I sent like 5 mins ago). In SR, I've always figured that most of the
"sniper" rifles use free-floating barrels, it would just be (a) a matter of
coming up with the mount, and (b) asking yourself "why?".


Kevin Dole, aka CyberRaven, aka IronRaven, aka Steel Tengu
http://members.xoom.com/iron_raven/
"Once again, we have spat in the face of Death and his second cousin,
Dismemberment."
"There are more things in heaven and earth, Horatio, than are dreamt of in
your philosophy."
Message no. 51
From: IronRaven cyberraven@********.net
Subject: Questions of great importance (Steve, Jon, RA:S people
Date: Tue, 07 Sep 1999 10:23:14 -0400
At 12.05 09-07-99 +0200, you wrote:
>Sneaking up on a sniper? That assumes you can pinpoint the sniper's

Took the words right out of my mouth.

>> Then I flash back to "Clear and Present Danger". The sniper in that

Ack! Flashback is right- read the book.

>> carried his sniper rifle AND an assault rifle like the other troopies.

Actually, it was an SMG, as part of the "scout" component.

>equip the spotter with the assault rifle and grenade launcher...

Largely SOP, I believe. If it isn't, then someone should have thier head
examined.


Kevin Dole, aka CyberRaven, aka IronRaven, aka Steel Tengu
http://members.xoom.com/iron_raven/
"Once again, we have spat in the face of Death and his second cousin,
Dismemberment."
"There are more things in heaven and earth, Horatio, than are dreamt of in
your philosophy."
Message no. 52
From: IronRaven cyberraven@********.net
Subject: Questions of great importance (Steve, Jon, RA:S people
Date: Tue, 07 Sep 1999 23:25:23 -0400
At 19.55 09-07-99 -0700, you wrote:
>So? Get yourself a rifle you CAN do it with, then.

SR-25 or AR-10. Both sub-MOA, detachable box, seriously free-floating
barrel. Add a Swan rail, and you can do it.

>Why?

The bigger versions of the carbines? Easy, they would be real rifles. In
modern terms, it would be like issueing a mix of mostly M-16 or HK-33s with
some (say 1-2/squad) SR-25s and G-3s. It makes perfect sense, becuase the
real rifles can punch through stuff the carbines can't, and argueeably have
longer range. They can also be used either in a "platoon supprot rifle"
mode (like the Druganov is used) or in a BAR-type role.
However, I also grew up believing that you should hump a real rifle and be
able to hit things out to 800 with it, just in case. Mating to a grenade
laucnher..
>It's called speed convenience. And the less things you have to keep
>track of, the less that can go wrong (usually). If you're holding your

Not argueing the concept, I understand it, and it works for some folks
(such as the folks in Florida). I just personally have reservations about
it. Part of it is weight- a good, precision rifle weighs about 12 pounds
before you load it. Figure in a few more pounds for an empty launcher.
Add shells (thier what, ~1.5 pounds each?) for the GL. This is a serious
load out.
The weight issue is part of the reason I generally prefeer to see GLs
mounted on carbines.


Kevin Dole, aka CyberRaven, aka IronRaven, aka Steel Tengu
http://members.xoom.com/iron_raven/
"Once again, we have spat in the face of Death and his second cousin,
Dismemberment."
"There are more things in heaven and earth, Horatio, than are dreamt of in
your philosophy."
Message no. 53
From: IronRaven cyberraven@********.net
Subject: Questions of great importance (Steve, Jon, RA:S people
Date: Wed, 08 Sep 1999 00:08:19 -0400
At 20.42 09-07-99 -0700, you wrote:
>Swan rail?

"Tubular" (actually, more rectangluar) forearm for AR-15-type rifles that
can mount an M-203 on the underside.


Kevin Dole, aka CyberRaven, aka IronRaven, aka Steel Tengu
http://members.xoom.com/iron_raven/
"Once again, we have spat in the face of Death and his second cousin,
Dismemberment."
"There are more things in heaven and earth, Horatio, than are dreamt of in
your philosophy."
Message no. 54
From: IronRaven cyberraven@********.net
Subject: Questions of great importance (Steve, Jon, RA:S people
Date: Wed, 08 Sep 1999 07:52:46 -0400
At 21.00 09-07-99 -0700, you wrote:
>SR sniper and I've NEVER had a spotter (not enough manpower), and I've

Well, talk to your rigger and decker and build one.

I'm serious. An intelligent system would be able to make limited
desisions for target prioritization and have reduced locating abilites, but
it would be able to take about half of the spotter's duties. I could
handle ranging (range finder), estimate winds, handle observation of the
shots (use an encephelon, and keep one "mind's eye" on your rifle, and
another on what the spotter sees), keep records (basically a sniper's
pocket secritary), and a number of other duties.



Kevin Dole, aka CyberRaven, aka IronRaven, aka Steel Tengu
http://members.xoom.com/iron_raven/
"Once again, we have spat in the face of Death and his second cousin,
Dismemberment."
"There are more things in heaven and earth, Horatio, than are dreamt of in
your philosophy."
Message no. 55
From: IronRaven cyberraven@********.net
Subject: Questions of great importance (Steve, Jon, RA:S people
Date: Wed, 08 Sep 1999 10:25:52 -0400
At 11.59 09-08-99 +0200, you wrote:
> Or use the launcher for the OICW; it's trajectory

Ack!!! <gagging> Take it away! take it away!!!
(You can't tell I'm opposed to the OICW concept.)

Actually, I think that minigreandes from SR fill this role already, given
50 years of explosives development and design refinement. Add a
rangefinder and link, with airburst grenades, and you have the OICW package.

(And hopefully the real US military will realise that the OICW with the
sub-carbine is not as versitile as a carbine or rifle with a secondary
launcher, or increase the magazine capacity and add a burst mode and issue
it as a single weapon, ala M-79, with a sidearm or compact SMG for backup.)

> As long as he doesn't get killed, IMO yes.

Question- can someone take a hitcherjack from a remote control eck so that
they can borrow sensor data from rigger controlled drones? If so, the
rigger and the sniper take a good hide site, and the rigger's drones double
as spotters. Use an encephalon to multitask you mind's eye.



Kevin Dole, aka CyberRaven, aka IronRaven, aka Steel Tengu
http://members.xoom.com/iron_raven/
"Once again, we have spat in the face of Death and his second cousin,
Dismemberment."
"There are more things in heaven and earth, Horatio, than are dreamt of in
your philosophy."
Message no. 56
From: IronRaven cyberraven@********.net
Subject: Questions of great importance (Steve, Jon, RA:S people
Date: Wed, 08 Sep 1999 10:33:30 -0400
At 14.18 09-08-99 +0100, you wrote:
>What if you're wearing gloves?

I use coloured baseplates to mark what is in the mag. HOwever, if need to
be able to keep track of various loads in readily available pouches, you
can get lumincent paint. It needs to be charged from alight source, but
one dot for ball, two for HE and AP, and three for tracer works.
Or, you can add a strip of luminscent paint to the bases of your mags and
write (symbols are easier to deal with than words, mind you) what is in
them with thick, alc-based markers.

>Far too much sharp glass or metallic debris around, and sliced-up fingers
>might be nonlethal but they're pretty disabling.

Even in the woods, you want gloves- wire, thorns, serrated leaves, old
stone walls, all kinds of things. And having gloves, a few biners, a heavy
belt and 40 feet of rope is a good idea in general, reguardless of your
theatre. You can anchor for repell in a few second sonce you know how, and
sliding 30 feet and dropping five or six is better than just jumping over a
40 foot cliff or out of a 5th story window.



Kevin Dole, aka CyberRaven, aka IronRaven, aka Steel Tengu
http://members.xoom.com/iron_raven/
"Once again, we have spat in the face of Death and his second cousin,
Dismemberment."
"There are more things in heaven and earth, Horatio, than are dreamt of in
your philosophy."
Message no. 57
From: Ereskanti@***.com Ereskanti@***.com
Subject: Questions of great importance (Steve, Jon, RA:S people
Date: Wed, 8 Sep 1999 13:26:37 EDT
In a message dated 9/7/1999 2:08:55 PM US Eastern Standard Time,
gurth@******.nl writes:

> > Anyway, FWIW, I agree - a sniper rifle is a *very* focused bit of kit -
no
> sniper
> > in his right mind would want to compromise the performance in that way...
>
> IMHO it's much better to put the GL into the spotter's hands, which means
> it can be used (in emergencies) when the sniper is occupied.

I would like to toss this little bit of thinking into this mess. The Sniper
could have some kind of assistance drone working with him, that might be
using "FDDM" or "IVIS", and place the same kind of modifier onto
his/her
Sniper Rifle. For several moments, the Sniper "paints/designates" several
targets ahead of time. These are then placed into the FDDM/IVIS systems of
the drone travelling with. If the Sniper begins to fall under fire, the
Sniper merely expends a free action (via a cyberlink in this instance) to
tell the drone(s) in question to "deal with target 'b' now". This way the
Sniper retains control over his situation and can respond accordingly. This
is the manner of the future. Truly capable/resourceful are going to want to
retain a level of self-assurance and control. In the age of demi-paranoia
that SR has (at least, in the eyes of the "Prime Runners" that move within it
have) it would seem like a suitable alternative, and would mean less people
involved that you would have to split the payment with. And along with
payment, the Karmic Reputation.

"Why yes sir, I do work alone ..."
"But this last incident reported continued sniper activity in the midst of
grenade coverage of larger targets ... surely you had to have someone backing
you up..."
"No sir, I'm just capable of planning ahead better ... and isn't that what
you want in this instance?"
"Yes, so very true. Now then, lets' discuss those nasty details of
payment........."

-K
Message no. 58
From: IronRaven cyberraven@********.net
Subject: Questions of great importance (Steve, Jon, RA:S people
Date: Wed, 08 Sep 1999 18:44:21 -0400
At 17.39 09-08-99 +0200, you wrote:
> I think you know that the OICW can do a lot more than
>airburst some grenades with a high degree of precision. You

I am somewhat familiar with the system's capabilities. My biggest
objection is to making the grenade launcher the primary weapon, rather than
the carbine component. I admit that I am "old school", and place an
emphasis on marksmanship, so that colours my opinion. I also have
reservations about the amount of ammuntion that can be carried, the fact
that it reduces the need to teach aiming (which is highly useful skill when
there are things you don't want to hit around) and the fact that as far as
I can tell, it is not really suitable for indirect fire. It also seems
likely that you can sabotage that oh-so-critical range finder, and that
making a sesor to detect would be very easy- there goes the concept of
ambushes.
Now, if the Army want's to issue them to replace half of the M-203s (one
of each to a squad), OK. But all of them, or even all rifles as I've heard
some individuals state, being switched over to the OICWs is a scary
thought. The OCIW has the tech edge and more firepower, but the M-203 can
be used as a baby mortar if need be, is mechanically simple and is more
versatile. The idea I keep hearing is for urban combat- OK, that's all
fine and good. Does that mean that grunts are going to have to learn an
addition weapon and carry one that they aren't as familiar with, due to
training budget restrictions, in the worst terrain known, after the trade
in thier regular rifle? Or are you going to have units that do nothing but
urban?

>switch, you have a nice carbine as second weapon. All this

Barrel is a bit stubby for my taste.

>at IIRC a bit more weight than a M16A2. You only need some

Actually, quite a bit more than the -16A2, even with an M-203 under it,
IIRC. And a hell of a lot more expensive.

To me, the thing reeks of people who are trying to short-cut things and
worship technology. Troops aren't smart enough to learn how to shoot, give
them something that fires salvos, even if it frequently a tactically
inferior weapon and it requires batteries to be used at all. (I may have
red dots on some of my rifles and shotguns, but I can pull them off and go
to the iron sights in about a minute, and fi thebattereis die, the gun
still go "bang"- no can do with the main part of the OICW.)
OK, that works fine until someone actually figures out how to break the
damn thing- then they have a multi-grand weapon that is worthless except
maybe as a club that might be fixable if the only guy in the platoon with
an electronics degree didn't get tagged five seconds into a firefight and
he has four or five quite minutes to fix it.
Grunt level weapons should be simple, reliable and able to survive being
used to butstroke a water buffalo into submission.



Kevin Dole, aka CyberRaven, aka IronRaven, aka Steel Tengu
http://members.xoom.com/iron_raven/
"Once again, we have spat in the face of Death and his second cousin,
Dismemberment."
"There are more things in heaven and earth, Horatio, than are dreamt of in
your philosophy."
Message no. 59
From: IronRaven cyberraven@********.net
Subject: Questions of great importance (Steve, Jon, RA:S people
Date: Wed, 08 Sep 1999 21:58:20 -0400
At 18.23 09-08-99 -0700, you wrote:
>And you're right there. But if a sniper wants to carry a secondary
>weapon, would a pistol or SMG really be as good as a GL? AFAIK, those

As a rule, you only need your bakcup if you are about to get stepped on.
Anyting else, and you have not been doing your job.
Combat is darwinian, what can I say.

>If you have a senior officer with info, men and the appropriate

Err....
In the West, we teach our sargents and grunts how to think.

>materiels at hand. Anyway, you're being too literal. A patrol stumbles
>across a sniper. Okay, so they don't go charging after him, they hunt

Well, if the sniper lets them "stumble across" him, he's srcewed up. His
options are to either engage or not engage. If they are likely to hit his
location, he should be booting out of there and thinking "don't see me, I'm
just a bush".

>cover and shoot to keep his head down while calling in support. Would
>THAT be how they'd operate?

One way of doing it, I supose. And while they wait for air or arty, I'm
getting the hell outta Dodge. Either than, or I blow the radio man's chest
out through his radio pack and then move onto other targets, but only if
I'm real confident in my position.



Kevin Dole, aka CyberRaven, aka IronRaven, aka Steel Tengu
http://members.xoom.com/iron_raven/
"Once again, we have spat in the face of Death and his second cousin,
Dismemberment."
"There are more things in heaven and earth, Horatio, than are dreamt of in
your philosophy."
Message no. 60
From: IronRaven cyberraven@********.net
Subject: Questions of great importance (Steve, Jon, RA:S people
Date: Wed, 08 Sep 1999 22:04:58 -0400
At 00.00 09-09-99 +0100, you wrote:
>opinion that a suggested UCAS SpecFor unit should train with and use AK-

No, this makes total sense. IRL, special operations (tactical) learn how
to use foreign and domestic weapons for various reasons.
An intelligent man in 2055+ would want to know the major weapons in use in
North America and Europe.


Kevin Dole, aka CyberRaven, aka IronRaven, aka Steel Tengu
http://members.xoom.com/iron_raven/
"Once again, we have spat in the face of Death and his second cousin,
Dismemberment."
"There are more things in heaven and earth, Horatio, than are dreamt of in
your philosophy."
Message no. 61
From: IronRaven cyberraven@********.net
Subject: Questions of great importance (Steve, Jon, RA:S people
Date: Wed, 08 Sep 1999 22:57:38 -0400
At 18.59 09-08-99 -0700, you wrote:
>You work with what you have, you know?

Sounds like someone needs to kiss up to thier fixer/dealer (and maybe work
thier GMover with a wiffleball bat for a half hour <g>).
To buy one, I'd say 20K yen (it is basically the brians of a sentry gun
with some changes and some excessories), with availability of something
like 12/30 days with and SI of around 2 becuase it is of limited use on the
streets. Case has B3/I5 armour, waterproof, weighs around 4 kg with the
tripod, and a conceal of 3. Has ragnefinder, mag 3 (~ x15) optics, with
lo-lite and thermal modes, and can call wind. Figure it sets up inabout two
minutes, needs a minute to initialize, and it really likes to have a map
soft and GPS data. It talks to your encephalon or I/O system as per your
rules (I've never heard of two groups doing it quite the same way).
I might make something up that uses my Smartsight system for datafeed.



Kevin Dole, aka CyberRaven, aka IronRaven, aka Steel Tengu
http://members.xoom.com/iron_raven/
"Once again, we have spat in the face of Death and his second cousin,
Dismemberment."
"There are more things in heaven and earth, Horatio, than are dreamt of in
your philosophy."
Message no. 62
From: Ereskanti@***.com Ereskanti@***.com
Subject: Questions of great importance (Steve, Jon, RA:S people
Date: Thu, 9 Sep 1999 01:29:01 EDT
In a message dated 9/8/1999 8:06:32 PM US Eastern Standard Time,
docwagon101@*****.com writes:

> > I would like to toss this little bit of thinking into this mess. The
> Sniper could have some kind of assistance drone working with him, that
> might be using "FDDM" or "IVIS", and place the same kind of
modifier
> onto his/her Sniper Rifle
> <Snippola(TM)>
> > -K
>
> Interesting idea, K.
>
> Why not take it to its logical conclusion? If you can have a drone
> covering you, why put yourself at risk at all? Why not have a drone
> doing the sniping as well?

Because, as per SR rules, "Drones" and "Riggers" cannot make
"Called Shots".
At least, that is the rule that was quoted to me by someone who plays them
more than I and actually read the Rigger-2 from cover to cover where I went
through it section at a time. Snipers *NEED* to be able to make called
shots. IF the rules is correct, then "Drone Snipers" become absolutely,
unfairly IMO, impossible.

> In a well-equipped world, snipers will be phased out by riggers as the
> riggers are simply more versatile and aren't risking their hides.
>
> Of course, I personally hate the idea. I REALLY like my adept sniper.
> :)

I don't think *that* idea will ever happen. In most cases, the rigger has
one problem over the sniper. Cyberware Cost.

> *Doc' sulks and starts collecting zappers...*

Zappers???

-K
Message no. 63
From: Ereskanti@***.com Ereskanti@***.com
Subject: Questions of great importance (Steve, Jon, RA:S people
Date: Thu, 9 Sep 1999 01:46:24 EDT
In a message dated 9/8/1999 10:41:21 PM US Eastern Standard Time,
docwagon101@*****.com writes:

> Pretty toy. :)
>
> What does my unaugmented adept sniper do, though? He can't link into it
> cybernetically. Give it a microtransceiver and a voice module (or some
> such thing) so it can talk to him?

Or an Induction Net (Shadowbeat???). Its' not as good as DNI/Cyberinterface,
but it should help out immensely.

-K
Message no. 64
From: Ereskanti@***.com Ereskanti@***.com
Subject: Questions of great importance (Steve, Jon, RA:S people
Date: Thu, 9 Sep 1999 01:58:30 EDT
In a message dated 9/9/1999 12:40:21 AM US Eastern Standard Time,
docwagon101@*****.com writes:

> > > *Doc' sulks and starts collecting zappers...*
> >
> > Zappers???
> > -K
>
> Well, whatever. Not sure if I used the right name. You know, those
> nasty, rigger-stuffing missiles from Lone Star and Rigger 2.

MEAN!!! You are MEAN!!! But you know what? Did you ever look at that drone
for the Zappers in R2 (the missile I mean, not the drone, sorry), take the
little "balls" and cart them around and use them like "EMP Grenades?"
We do.
Absolutely fiendish. Sure, you have to actually *hit* someone then, but
what the hell is the difference. The chaos is sheer enjoyment if it is
planned and followed through correctly.

-K
Message no. 65
From: IronRaven cyberraven@********.net
Subject: Questions of great importance (Steve, Jon, RA:S people
Date: Thu, 09 Sep 1999 10:22:29 -0400
At 19.55 09-08-99 -0700, you wrote:
>the best situational awareness isn't going let the sniper spot each and
>every danger each and every time.

Use your ears and nose- you'd be amazed how much they give you.

>Yeah, that's cool, but you really only want to do that if they haven't

Notice that I said "real confident" in my possision. And I mean REAL
positive. As in, they can set a nuke off on it and I'll have a hot flash,
type confident.

>I suppose you could shoot radio-guy to prevent them from following you
>and radioing coordinates, then bug out, but that isn't always going to

Not always, but tagging the RATELO is a good opening move. Him, and the
guy with the funny red target on his uniform.


Kevin Dole, aka CyberRaven, aka IronRaven, aka Steel Tengu
http://members.xoom.com/iron_raven/
"Once again, we have spat in the face of Death and his second cousin,
Dismemberment."
"There are more things in heaven and earth, Horatio, than are dreamt of in
your philosophy."
Message no. 66
From: IronRaven cyberraven@********.net
Subject: Questions of great importance (Steve, Jon, RA:S people
Date: Thu, 09 Sep 1999 10:28:50 -0400
At 20.16 09-08-99 -0700, you wrote:
>Pretty toy. :)

Designing them is one of my specialiteis as a GM. Breaking them is
another. <g>

>What does my unaugmented adept sniper do, though? He can't link into it

Monocular HUD for his off-eye, displaying the data, with an audio cue for
"strike".



Kevin Dole, aka CyberRaven, aka IronRaven, aka Steel Tengu
http://members.xoom.com/iron_raven/
"Once again, we have spat in the face of Death and his second cousin,
Dismemberment."
"There are more things in heaven and earth, Horatio, than are dreamt of in
your philosophy."
Message no. 67
From: caelric@****.com caelric@****.com
Subject: Questions of great importance (Steve, Jon, RA:S people
Date: Thu, 09 Sep 1999 07:20:13 -0700
>> Nope. Any idea how much ammo _real_ firefights get through?
>
>I doubt most SR players do, with the way you can use a single clip in at
>least ten firefights and still have a few rounds left in SR's game system.
>
I've been close to a real firefight, and also been in many training
exercises. You easily go through magazines like there is no tommorrow.
Suppressive fire uses most of them, suppressive fire just being shooting in
the general direction of the enemy to make him think twice about taking
careful aim at you. A typical firefight with 4 to six people on each side
would easily burn 2 or 3 30 round mags from each person.

Dave


Blaming guns for violence is like blaming spoons for overweight people
Message no. 68
From: IronRaven cyberraven@********.net
Subject: Questions of great importance (Steve, Jon, RA:S people
Date: Thu, 09 Sep 1999 10:41:44 -0400
At 14.02 09-09-99 +0200, you wrote:
> AFAIK it will fire after a short cleaning. It's
>a Heckler&Koch, you know.

The sub-carbine is H&K, the launcher is made America (AAI, IIRC).


Kevin Dole, aka CyberRaven, aka IronRaven, aka Steel Tengu
http://members.xoom.com/iron_raven/
"Once again, we have spat in the face of Death and his second cousin,
Dismemberment."
"There are more things in heaven and earth, Horatio, than are dreamt of in
your philosophy."
Message no. 69
From: IronRaven cyberraven@********.net
Subject: Questions of great importance (Steve, Jon, RA:S people
Date: Thu, 09 Sep 1999 11:10:31 -0400
At 12.29 09-09-99 +0200, you wrote:
>The grunts would put up as large a volume of fire as they can on the
>sniper's suspected positions, in order to make the sniper keep his head

Sniper pack! Have a number of sniper teams covering an area, that can
work indepently or can co-ordinate by radio for group ambushes. Nasty when
it is done right, but terrain has to be very special for you to be able to
do it. You only hear one or two shots, but it sounds like it came from six
differnt places, and six guys go down. A half second latter, whie you are
still going "****!!!!!!", six more guys.
Either that, or one team fires, and then another to allow the first team
to move, and so on. (One of the best reasons to give spotters rifles
rather than carbines, but this is all offense with reduced defense, and GLs
are nice somethimes too.)
And if you want to be real nasty, add a couple of MMGs and/or a single
60mm to the fray, but all dispursed. If you get successfully rushed, that
element is screweded, but if done right, the target is being bit from so
many different locations they can't think straight, and locations are
mutually supporting. Kinda like hyenas killing a lion.



Kevin Dole, aka CyberRaven, aka IronRaven, aka Steel Tengu
http://members.xoom.com/iron_raven/
"Once again, we have spat in the face of Death and his second cousin,
Dismemberment."
"There are more things in heaven and earth, Horatio, than are dreamt of in
your philosophy."
Message no. 70
From: IronRaven cyberraven@********.net
Subject: Questions of great importance (Steve, Jon, RA:S people
Date: Thu, 09 Sep 1999 14:51:15 -0400
At 20.06 09-09-99 +0200, you wrote:
>the manufacturer of the optics and grenade programming module
>escapes me for the moment.

Team leader, I'm willing to bet, who is listed as AAI. I'm surprised- the
drawings of the guts for the launcher don't have the "H&K look" to them.
(Don't ask me to describe it, it's a "gut" thing.)


Kevin Dole, aka CyberRaven, aka IronRaven, aka Steel Tengu
http://members.xoom.com/iron_raven/
"Once again, we have spat in the face of Death and his second cousin,
Dismemberment."
"There are more things in heaven and earth, Horatio, than are dreamt of in
your philosophy."
Message no. 71
From: IronRaven cyberraven@********.net
Subject: Questions of great importance (Steve, Jon, RA:S people
Date: Thu, 09 Sep 1999 16:45:28 -0400
At 15.56 09-09-99 -0400, you wrote:
>BTW, is it just me, or is not enough made of suppressing fire in SR? One of

Field os Fire, p78

>like most of the FASA staff is too young to have been in any real wars.

Interesting statement. Define "real war". That is like saying "low
intensity conflict". I agree withe Marine who said "If I'm being shot at,
it is high intensity." (Paraphrase, I don't remember the actual quote of
the top of my head.)


Kevin Dole, aka CyberRaven, aka IronRaven, aka Steel Tengu
http://members.xoom.com/iron_raven/
"Once again, we have spat in the face of Death and his second cousin,
Dismemberment."
"There are more things in heaven and earth, Horatio, than are dreamt of in
your philosophy."
Message no. 72
From: Graht Graht@**********.worldnet.att.net
Subject: Questions of great importance (Steve, Jon, RA:S people
Date: Thu, 09 Sep 1999 17:02:43 -0500
Gurth wrote:
/According to Rand Ratinac, at 18:23 on 8 Sep 99, the word on
/the street was...
/
/> If so, sniper-boy caps off a few grenades, the grunts stop shooting (so
/> much) because now they're worried about being hit themselves and
/> sniper-boy can get the hell out of there.
/
/The grunts would put up as large a volume of fire as they can on the
/sniper's suspected positions, in order to make the sniper keep his head
/down. A few well-aimed shots from the sniper might make the grunts take
/some casualties, but I doubt it'd be enough to make them stop firing, let
/alone pull back.

I'm suddenly reminded of a scene near the end of the movie "Full Metal
Jacket" where a platoon puts up a *hellacious* amount of fire in response
to a sniper. If you haven't seen the movie, I highly recommend it.

-Graht
--
ShadowRN GridSec
The ShadowRN FAQ: http://shadowrun.html.com/hlair/faqindex.php3
Geek Code: GCS d-( ) s++:->+ a@ C++>$ US P L >++ E? W++>+++ !N o-- K-
w+ o? M- VMS? PS+(++) PE+(++) Y+ !PGP t+(++) 5+(++) X++(+++) R+>$ tv+b++ DI++++
D+(++) G e+>+++ h--->---- r+++ y+++
http://home.att.net/~Graht
"The battles that count aren't the ones for gold medals.
The struggles within yourself; the invisible, inevitable
battles inside all of us; that's where it's at."
-Jesse Owens
Message no. 73
From: IronRaven cyberraven@********.net
Subject: Questions of great importance (Steve, Jon, RA:S people
Date: Thu, 09 Sep 1999 23:04:01 -0400
At 23.39 09-09-99 +0200, you wrote:
>after pulling it out and cleaning the lense? Or a GPS?
>It uses electronics and batteries, so does it stop

Drop one ten feet, or have water get into the case (any number of reasons,
including a bad seal after replacing the battery), or the battereis just go
dead, it is worthless at that moment.
I'm not saying that things with batteries are always bad, but they have to
prove themselves to me before I taken them out into the real world. I use
flashlights, but either Mags, Strealights, SureFires or a couple of dive
lights, becuase those brands have proven themselves to me. However, I
carry a second light (if nothing more than a Mag Solitare), and matches and
a candle and some tin foil to maek a reflective hood out of, along with a
few light sticks. Simply becuase I want a backup.
In the case of the OICW, the primary weapons system, at this time, is
worthless if the battereis break or the computer gets jarred or zapped. A
sub-carbien that is firing a round from a barrel half the length it was
origionally intended to be fired from is not a backup that fills me with
confidence.




>working when dirty?
>
>--
>[arclight@*********.de]<><><><><><>[ICQ14322211]
>All suspects are guilty, serious. Otherwise they
> wouldn't be suspects, would they?
><><><><[http://www.datahaven.de/arclight]><><><>;
>
>
>
Kevin Dole, aka CyberRaven, aka IronRaven, aka Steel Tengu
http://members.xoom.com/iron_raven/
"Once again, we have spat in the face of Death and his second cousin,
Dismemberment."
"There are more things in heaven and earth, Horatio, than are dreamt of in
your philosophy."
Message no. 74
From: IronRaven cyberraven@********.net
Subject: Questions of great importance (Steve, Jon, RA:S people
Date: Thu, 09 Sep 1999 23:06:13 -0400
At 23.39 09-09-99 +0200, you wrote:
>> Team leader, I'm willing to bet, who is listed as AAI.
> Alliant Techsystems is responsible for total weapon

Yep, my bad (again)


Kevin Dole, aka CyberRaven, aka IronRaven, aka Steel Tengu
http://members.xoom.com/iron_raven/
"Once again, we have spat in the face of Death and his second cousin,
Dismemberment."
"There are more things in heaven and earth, Horatio, than are dreamt of in
your philosophy."
Message no. 75
From: IronRaven cyberraven@********.net
Subject: Questions of great importance (Steve, Jon, RA:S people
Date: Fri, 10 Sep 1999 07:57:40 -0400
At 22.18 09-09-99 -0700, you wrote:
>Wow - so you mean never, then?

Pretty much. Tag the RATELO or someone I see with a long rifle, and then
get outta dodge

>I think my sarcasm interpreter chip is on the fritz. You talking about
>the CO there? :)

No, the person with the red cross on his helmet. I have few compunctions
about shooting medics.

>Still (you knew there was one of those, didn't you?), I think that in
>certain circumstances it could be a useful combination. Just can't

Urban, maybe, with a lot of careful planning and consideration as to how
to employ it.



Kevin Dole, aka CyberRaven, aka IronRaven, aka Steel Tengu
http://members.xoom.com/iron_raven/
"Once again, we have spat in the face of Death and his second cousin,
Dismemberment."
"There are more things in heaven and earth, Horatio, than are dreamt of in
your philosophy."
Message no. 76
From: IronRaven cyberraven@********.net
Subject: Questions of great importance (Steve, Jon, RA:S people
Date: Fri, 10 Sep 1999 16:10:08 -0400
> Ugh, that's nasty...

Outside of Europe, the US, Japan, the Commonwealth and maybe Isreal, SoKor
and Singapore, the "laws of war" aren't really taught. Russian and Chinese
troops aren't told, based off of the debrief data I've seen from defectors,
not to shoot things with red crosses on them. HOwever, they standout
readily, so they will become targets.
I play with people by thier own rules.


Kevin Dole, aka CyberRaven, aka IronRaven, aka Steel Tengu
http://members.xoom.com/iron_raven/
"Once again, we have spat in the face of Death and his second cousin,
Dismemberment."
"There are more things in heaven and earth, Horatio, than are dreamt of in
your philosophy."
Message no. 77
From: IronRaven cyberraven@********.net
Subject: Questions of great importance (Steve, Jon, RA:S people
Date: Fri, 10 Sep 1999 17:13:23 -0400
At 15.16 09-10-99 -0500, you wrote:
>So I guess the whole "honor" diatribe you went on a few weeks back was just
>a scam too, eh?

No, it was not. If you wear the uniform of my enemy, and your forces fire
on my forces' medics, I will have no reservations about shooting yours. If
you respect our medics, I will return the courtisy (does that have an "e"
in it?). Even if you don't, I won't shoot at medievac shoppers and
ambulances, unless they are firing (a guy clinging to the side with a rilfe
doesn't count), and never at hospitals
To me, being a medic is not the same as being an uninvolved party, just
like a water truck. If it is an in-field support (non-combat) unit, and
ours are being purposely targeted, I will return the favor. IF you choose
to be an univolved party, that's fine. However, I know too many medics
(USAF PJs and an Army SF medic) who (a) can "out medic" a line medic, (b)
out fight grunts, and are loaded for bear when they take the field, and
EMTs who joined the Marines or Army becuase they were tired of picking up
hurt kids, to consider them to be a "non-threat".
I know that sounds confusing. Basically, it depends on the medic, who
they work for, and what they are doing. If they are being a good little
corpsman, and carrying nothing more than a sidearm and some smoke, and just
trying to help peole, fine. You carry the red cross and a rifle, you
become a probable target. You fire that rifle at me or my forces, and you
are a target.



Kevin Dole, aka CyberRaven, aka IronRaven, aka Steel Tengu
http://members.xoom.com/iron_raven/
"Once again, we have spat in the face of Death and his second cousin,
Dismemberment."
"There are more things in heaven and earth, Horatio, than are dreamt of in
your philosophy."
Message no. 78
From: Aaron sparrow@***.net.au
Subject: Questions of great importance (Steve, Jon, RA:S people
Date: Sun, 12 Sep 1999 18:21:04 +1000
> The ULTIMATE drone killers! Can you imagine what you could do in the
> arc if you took in a few pouches of those babies???
>
> *Doc' starts to exhibit spasms not unlike those of a rigger hit by a
> zapper...or a person in pure and utter ecstasy...*

ok.. um.. I think Ive found the "special shadowrunner anti-drone weapon" my
team is taking into the Arc :)

GreyWolf

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