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Message no. 1
From: Rand Ratinac docwagon101@*****.com
Subject: Questions of great importance (Steve, Jon, RA:S people especially)
Date: Wed, 1 Sep 1999 16:32:16 -0700 (PDT)
People, these are some important questions for a couple of stories I'm
working on and I need CANON answers.

1. What constructions materials are used in the Shadowrun era? Have
there been any great advances in this direction?

2. What are the colours of the UCAS army dress uniforms and fatigues?

This one doesn't actually require a canon answer - just a knowledgeable
one.

3. Are there any cultures with legends of "mystic rituals" or the like
that a) involve human sacrifice and b) grant whoever conducts the
sacrifice great power?
==Doc'
(aka Mr. Freaky Big, Super-Dynamic Troll of Tomorrow)

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Message no. 2
From: Penta cpenta@*****.com
Subject: Questions of great importance (Steve, Jon, RA:S people especially)
Date: Wed, 01 Sep 1999 20:43:19 -0700
Rand Ratinac wrote:
<kersnip all>
Twould actually be appreciated, obviously, if the response came via list.
That 2nd one has me wondering.
Message no. 3
From: Rand Ratinac docwagon101@*****.com
Subject: Questions of great importance (Steve, Jon, RA:S people especially)
Date: Wed, 1 Sep 1999 18:47:44 -0700 (PDT)
> Full dress uniform is a OD green jacket and pants (W/ black stripe),
light green shirt with collar insignia and an OD tie plus hat.
>
> Class B (or workaday uniforms) are much the same as full dress, just
minus the Jacket and tie. Optionally a garison cap can be worn instead
of the standard cap.
>
> Field dress is fatuiges, normally in a woodland pattern, with the
other patterns (jungle, dessert, Arctic) being reserved for use under
"combat" conditions. They also usually have 2 large brest pockets, 2
lower pockets on the shirt; the pants have 2 larger front pockets, 2
standard back pockets, and 2 large "cargo" pockets on the front side of
the thigh.

HM - where'd this come from (out of curiousity)? And what is the "urban
cammo" pattern - if there is one?
==Doc'
(aka Mr. Freaky Big, Super-Dynamic Troll of Tomorrow)

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Message no. 4
From: Rand Ratinac docwagon101@*****.com
Subject: Questions of great importance (Steve, Jon, RA:S people especially)
Date: Wed, 1 Sep 1999 18:53:46 -0700 (PDT)
> >2. What are the colours of the UCAS army dress
> uniforms and fatigues?
> >
> >This one doesn't actually require a canon answer -
> just a knowledgeable
> >one.

Just a quick note due to poor formatting on my part. The above sentence
applies to question 3, not question 2. For question 2 I need an answer
according to canon SR data.

> >3. Are there any cultures with legends of "mystic
> rituals" or the like
> >that a) involve human sacrifice and b) grant
> whoever conducts the
> >sacrifice great power?
>
> Big one that comes to mind is the Aztec culture. Human sacrifice was
a part of their religious ceremonies - think ripping human heart out of
a living victim. They'd treat the sacrifices real well until their
death. Kinda like fattening up the calf in a way. (This translates
into Aztech in shadowrun times). Celt Druids used sacrifices, but
this was willing sacrifice if I recall, but that varies by who you read
really.

I know all about the Aztecs - the problem with that is that the
sacrifices were performed by priests to honour/placate/worship their
gods.

I'm looking for something where the killer is supposed to be the one
getting the mystical "shot-in-the-arm" from the slaying.

Eh - I'll probably have to make something up.

As for the Druids - well, I don't really know a lot about their
practises, but I'm pretty sure they were still religious in nature and
again the focus of the sacrifice was on nature or whatever, not on the
"sacrificer".

Thanks anyway, Lomion.
==Doc'
(aka Mr. Freaky Big, Super-Dynamic Troll of Tomorrow)

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Message no. 5
From: Rand Ratinac docwagon101@*****.com
Subject: Questions of great importance (Steve, Jon, RA:S people especially)
Date: Wed, 1 Sep 1999 20:11:08 -0700 (PDT)
> >2. What are the colours of the UCAS army dress
> uniforms and fatigues?
> >This one doesn't actually require a canon answer -
> just a knowledgeable
> >one.
>
> Good, becuase I don't think there are any.

Prolly not, which is why I need it answered by people "in the know". If
there isn't one, basing it off current US uniforms sounds good.

As I said before, though, it's the 3rd question which doesn't need a
canon reply (as it doesn't directly pertain to SR), not the second.

> Snowflauge: Black, grey and white in the same mix as woodland.
Commonly called "Urban", but it isn't the best for urban as it is too
brite IMO, but not too bad in winter environs. It does a hell of a job
of blurring your movements though ("Did he just reach for a gun?")
> Subdued Urban: Black, dark grey, light grey in the same pattern as
woodland (a little more efective for city work IMO, available from US
Cav and others, but may be too dark for daylight operations)
> Blue: A mix of black, dark blue and medium blue, mainly sold as a
novelty pattern, but it does an OK job at night in urban terrains (it
doesn't siloutte very much), and may have some airborne insertation
applications.
> Black: Great for intimidation, sucks at concealment day or night.
A moving, solid BLACK object stands out real fast, and you just
siloutte your life away.
<(Snippola(TM)>

Okay - you're the knowledgable one in this department, Kevin (more or
less :) ). I've got a UCAS army strike team going into the Renraku
Arcology. Parts of the arc are well lit, parts are black as night. You
know how it goes. They're all wearing armoured bodysuits, plus armoured
REVERSIBLE vests. What would be good camouflage patterns for them to be
using? I would assume the vest would have one side for darkness and one
for light - but what about the bodysuit? That's all one pattern.

Btw, if black sucks so hard, why do people insist on using it? Or is
that a Hollywood fallacy?


> >3. Are there any cultures with legends of "mystic
> rituals" or the like
> >that a) involve human sacrifice and b) grant
> whoever conducts the
>
> Many ancient cultures did. Babyloneans, Sumerians, Egyptians,
Aztecs, Celts, maybe the Romans (BIG maybe), a whole mess more.
Basically, telling the spirits how big of a badass you are. (Didn't
always work- I wonder why?)
> Kevin Dole, aka CyberRaven, aka IronRaven, aka Steel
> Tengu

This I know. Again, the problem with these is that, as far as I know,
all the sacrifices were designed for interaction with their "gods".

==Doc'
(aka Mr. Freaky Big, Super-Dynamic Troll of Tomorrow)

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Message no. 6
From: runnerpaul@*****.com runnerpaul@*****.com
Subject: Questions of great importance (Steve, Jon, RA:S people especially)
Date: Wed, 1 Sep 1999 23:57:31 -0400 (EDT)
-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----

At 08:11 PM 9/1/99 -0700, Rand Ratinac wrote:
::Black: Great for intimidation, sucks at concealment day or night.
::A moving, solid BLACK object stands out real fast, and you just
::siloutte your life away.
:
:Btw, if black sucks so hard, why do people insist on using it? Or is
:that a Hollywood fallacy?

Because it's _GREAT_ for intimidation. :)
That's often the reason why you'll see SWAT teams in black, for
example.

-----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE-----
Version: PGPfreeware 6.5.1 for non-commercial use <http://www.pgp.com>;

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--
-- Paul Gettle, #186 of 1000 (RunnerPaul@*****.com)
PGP Fingerprint, Key ID:0x48F3AACD (RSA 1024, created 98/06/26)
C260 94B3 6722 6A25 63F8 0690 9EA2 3344

---------------------------------------------------
Get free personalized email at http://www.iname.com
Message no. 7
From: Rand Ratinac docwagon101@*****.com
Subject: Questions of great importance (Steve, Jon, RA:S people especially)
Date: Wed, 1 Sep 1999 20:58:49 -0700 (PDT)
> >HM - where'd this come from (out of curiousity)?
>
> It is how US-spec fatigues have been cut of decades, with minor
changes.

Pssst...Kevin - this particular post was sent to Starrngr (also known
to me and certain others as HM), which is why I asked these questions.
I was wondering if he was giving me US army data or actual UCAS army
data from a SR product.

> OD coat

Query: "OD"?

> with a very little dark brown and white dappling in winter over wool
(I prefeer it to polypro- ever have that stuff melt on your skin? I
haven't but I don't want to.)
> Kevin Dole, aka CyberRaven, aka IronRaven, aka Steel Tengu

Not that I know of. Melted a pair of polyester trackpants to my knee
one time when someone shoved me in the back on a basketball court. That
was fun. :)
==Doc'
(aka Mr. Freaky Big, Super-Dynamic Troll of Tomorrow)

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Message no. 8
From: Rand Ratinac docwagon101@*****.com
Subject: Questions of great importance (Steve, Jon, RA:S people especially)
Date: Wed, 1 Sep 1999 21:13:30 -0700 (PDT)
> Full dress uniform is a OD green jacket and pants (W/ black stripe),
light green shirt with collar insignia and an OD tie plus hat.
>
> Class B (or workaday uniforms) are much the same as full dress, just
minus the Jacket and tie. Optionally a garison cap can be worn instead
of the standard cap.

One more q. What's a "garrison cap"? For that matter, what's the
standard cap?

And another one. :) Would the UCAS troops guarding the Renraku Arcology
be considered under combat conditions (and thus be wearing urban
cammo), or standard conditions (with woodland cammo fatigues)?
==Doc'
(aka Mr. Freaky Big, Super-Dynamic Troll of Tomorrow)

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Message no. 9
From: Rand Ratinac docwagon101@*****.com
Subject: Questions of great importance (Steve, Jon, RA:S people especially)
Date: Wed, 1 Sep 1999 21:15:42 -0700 (PDT)
> > 2. What are the colours of the UCAS army dress
> uniforms and fatigues?

Oops.

Question 4.

Army transports (trucks and the like, as opposed to combat infantry
transports) are painted "army green" in current time, correct? Does
anyone know if the UCAS (SR canon again) uses the same paint for its transports?
==Doc'
(aka Mr. Freaky Big, Super-Dynamic Troll of Tomorrow)

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Message no. 10
From: abortion_engine abortion_engine@*******.com
Subject: Questions of great importance (Steve, Jon, RA:S people especially)
Date: Thu, 2 Sep 1999 00:25:32 -0400
> > with a very little dark brown and white dappling in winter over wool
> (I prefeer it to polypro- ever have that stuff melt on your skin? I
> haven't but I don't want to.)
> > Kevin Dole, aka CyberRaven, aka IronRaven, aka Steel Tengu
>
> Not that I know of. Melted a pair of polyester trackpants to my knee
> one time when someone shoved me in the back on a basketball court. That
> was fun. :)
> ==> Doc'
> (aka Mr. Freaky Big, Super-Dynamic Troll of Tomorrow)
>
I'm allergic to the wool, so I had to wear the polypro. It's inferior for a
number of reasons, not the least of which is the abrasion process I had to
go through so the corpman could get it off me. Yeah, I've had it melt on.
And at the time, it didn't hurt so bad. (Can you say unconcious? I knew you
could.) But for about a month after that, it itched so bad...At least I've
got a pretty decent scar to show for it. (Which I wouldn't have had if I
hadn't itched it. Idiot.)

Wear the wool, if you can. It just feels more natural, less like wearing an
airtight garbage bag. But if you can't, stay away from old british Ferrets
and idiots with incendiary rounds.

Hey, speaking of which, why doesn't SR have incendiary rounds? I know
they've got WP grenades and mortars (mmm, mortars) but why don't they have
burn shot? (And why don't people lose their heads when MP-HMG rounds pass
six inches from their heads?)
Message no. 11
From: Rand Ratinac docwagon101@*****.com
Subject: Questions of great importance (Steve, Jon, RA:S people especially)
Date: Wed, 1 Sep 1999 22:23:25 -0700 (PDT)
> ::Black: Great for intimidation, sucks at concealment day or night.
A moving, solid BLACK object stands out real fast, and you just
siloutte your life away.
> :
> :Btw, if black sucks so hard, why do people insist on using it? Or is
that a Hollywood fallacy?
>
> Because it's _GREAT_ for intimidation. :) That's often the reason
why you'll see SWAT teams in black, for example.
> -- Paul Gettle, #186 of 1000

Yeah, but that doesn't help me. Why would spec forces or SEALs wear
black? They don't need intimidation - they need concealment.
==Doc'
(aka Mr. Freaky Big, Super-Dynamic Troll of Tomorrow)

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Message no. 12
From: abortion_engine abortion_engine@*******.com
Subject: Questions of great importance (Steve, Jon, RA:S people especially)
Date: Thu, 2 Sep 1999 01:42:09 -0400
> > ::Black: Great for intimidation, sucks at concealment day or night.
> A moving, solid BLACK object stands out real fast, and you just
> siloutte your life away.
> > :
> > :Btw, if black sucks so hard, why do people insist on using it? Or is
> that a Hollywood fallacy?
> >
> > Because it's _GREAT_ for intimidation. :) That's often the reason
> why you'll see SWAT teams in black, for example.
> > -- Paul Gettle, #186 of 1000
>
> Yeah, but that doesn't help me. Why would spec forces or SEALs wear
> black? They don't need intimidation - they need concealment.

Okay, here's the thing. They don't; not always. Yeah, I've seen it used, and
in some times that I'd have called dumb, but it's not standard. You pick
smart clothes in the same way you pick any other equipment--at least for
SpecFo [grunts don't pick their gear :) ]. Whether that's Urban Camo or a
straight set of fatigues, or black, you pick tactical clothing on a
case-by-case basis.

I should note, sometimes black is okay. It really depends on the setting,
and on your concealment tactics. I've had a lot of luck with very dark blue
at night. In highly moonlit conditions, for whatever reason--thinking isn't
always my job, just usually--it seems to work better at concealment than
straight black.

The answer is this: only having one option available to you in the clothing
department is stupid for an infiltrator. Choices, choices, choices. It's
what makes this stuff work in real life.

Also remember, clothing is one--kinda unimportant, really--aspect of
concealment. Not being where people can see you, not moving quickly, not
skylining, leaving a small cross-section, all of these mean that what you're
wearing isn't important. If they never look your way, what does it matter
what you're wearing? [I know it's over-simplified, leave me alone.]

I hope this helps a little. If not, I can give it another shot if I have
more of an idea of what you're looking for.
Message no. 13
From: Rand Ratinac docwagon101@*****.com
Subject: Questions of great importance (Steve, Jon, RA:S people especially)
Date: Wed, 1 Sep 1999 22:49:11 -0700 (PDT)
Q: Polypro?

> I'm allergic to the wool, so I had to wear the polypro. It's inferior
for a number of reasons, not the least of which is the abrasion process
I had to go through so the corpman could get it off me.

Eh? Care to elaborate?

> Yeah, I've had it melt on.

Why? What happened?

> And at the time, it didn't hurt so bad. (Can you say unconcious? I
knew you could.) But for about a month after that, it itched so
bad...At least I've got a pretty decent scar to show for it. (Which I
wouldn't have had if I hadn't itched it. Idiot.)
>
> Wear the wool, if you can. It just feels more natural, less like
wearing an airtight garbage bag. But if you can't, stay away from old
british Ferrets

???

> and idiots with incendiary rounds.
>
> Hey, speaking of which, why doesn't SR have incendiary rounds? I know
they've got WP grenades and mortars (mmm, mortars) but why don't they
have burn shot?

Beats the hell out of me.

> (And why don't people lose their heads when MP-HMG rounds pass six
inches from their heads?)

Hell, I dunno. Question from a non-military-goon-type. :) Why WOULD you
lose your head from a near miss?

Errr...unless you're talking figuratively here and you mean "freak
out", not literally losing your head. :)

*Doc' points a finger at AE. "Not a word, you."*
==Doc'
(aka Mr. Freaky Big, Super-Dynamic Troll of Tomorrow)

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Message no. 14
From: Rand Ratinac docwagon101@*****.com
Subject: Questions of great importance (Steve, Jon, RA:S people especially)
Date: Wed, 1 Sep 1999 23:01:12 -0700 (PDT)
<BigSnip(TM)>

> I hope this helps a little. If not, I can give it another shot if I
have more of an idea of what you're looking for.

Thanks for the input. In this case, though, concealment is everything.

Same thing I asked Kevin. UCAS spec forces team going into the Renraku
Arcology. Armoured bodysuits, reversible armoured vests. The arc is
well-lit in places, dark in others. What's the best set of cammos for a
situation like that?
==Doc'
(aka Mr. Freaky Big, Super-Dynamic Troll of Tomorrow)

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Message no. 15
From: abortion_engine abortion_engine@*******.com
Subject: Questions of great importance (Steve, Jon, RA:S people especially)
Date: Thu, 2 Sep 1999 02:19:51 -0400
> > (And why don't people lose their heads when MP-HMG rounds pass six
> inches from their heads?)
>
> Hell, I dunno. Question from a non-military-goon-type. :) Why WOULD you
> lose your head from a near miss?
>
> Errr...unless you're talking figuratively here and you mean "freak
> out", not literally losing your head. :)
>
> *Doc' points a finger at AE. "Not a word, you."*

Sorry, here comes a word anyway. :)

A lot of times, bigger rounds will have enough energy surrounding them in
the air to take heads right off people. It's one of the first things they
teach you when they pull out the .50 cals for the first time. "A .50 cal
round passing within a foot of someone's head will make it [insert
inappropriate expletive here] EXPLODE." We were messing around in Spain one
day and a guy did it with a melon. We had to put a target next to the melon
to get people to believe that he wasn't actually shooting it. [That was the
same day one of my squadmates shot a cow with a 40 mm grenade launcher. What
a guy.]

The effect is similar to hydrostatic shock, in physics terms, at least.
Message no. 16
From: Rand Ratinac docwagon101@*****.com
Subject: Questions of great importance (Steve, Jon, RA:S people especially)
Date: Wed, 1 Sep 1999 23:27:38 -0700 (PDT)
> > > (And why don't people lose their heads when MP-HMG rounds pass
six inches from their heads?)
> >
> > Hell, I dunno. Question from a non-military-goon-type. :) Why WOULD
you lose your head from a near miss?
> >
> > Errr...unless you're talking figuratively here and you mean "freak
out", not literally losing your head. :)
> >
> > *Doc' points a finger at AE. "Not a word, you."*
>
> Sorry, here comes a word anyway. :)
>
> A lot of times, bigger rounds will have enough energy surrounding
them in the air to take heads right off people. It's one of the first
things they teach you when they pull out the .50 cals for the first
time. "A .50 cal round passing within a foot of someone's head will
make it [insert inappropriate expletive here] EXPLODE." We were messing
around in Spain one day and a guy did it with a melon. We had to put a
target next to the melon to get people to believe that he wasn't
actually shooting it. [That was the same day one of my squadmates shot
a cow with a 40 mm grenade launcher. What a guy.]

Ouch. Would a helmet - hell, would ANYTHING - help against that?

> The effect is similar to hydrostatic shock, in physics terms, at
least.

Err...I thought hydrostatic shock had been debunked as a myth.

*Doc' hides as he realises he may have just started WWIII...*
==Doc'
(aka Mr. Freaky Big, Super-Dynamic Troll of Tomorrow)

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Message no. 17
From: Rand Ratinac docwagon101@*****.com
Subject: Questions of great importance (Steve, Jon, RA:S people especially)
Date: Thu, 2 Sep 1999 00:44:52 -0700 (PDT)
> > > OD coat
> >
> > Query: "OD"?
>
> OD .. Olive Drab. That Yechie green color all their uniforms USED to
be made out of... For example, go look at "Private Benjamin" staring
Goldie Hawn (I assume you can find it down in Oz..) those horrid green
colors they wear? thats OD Green.

You mean the stuff us plebs know as "army green"? :)
==Doc'
(aka Mr. Freaky Big, Super-Dynamic Troll of Tomorrow)

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Message no. 18
From: Rand Ratinac docwagon101@*****.com
Subject: Questions of great importance (Steve, Jon, RA:S people especially)
Date: Thu, 2 Sep 1999 00:47:01 -0700 (PDT)
> > HM - where'd this come from (out of curiousity)? And what is the
"urban cammo" pattern - if there is one?
>
> My brother in law's closet. He was in the Army reserves, served in
the Gulf (But not during the gulf war... He was a bean counter and went
over to account for everything AFTER the shooting stopped!) Regular
army units dont really USE a urban pattern since they dont like
fighting in urban areas per se. Special forces probobly do, and I
believe their's are Tiger stripes of several shades of grey.

Don't suppose anyone knows where I could find a pic of this on the net?
==Doc'
(aka Mr. Freaky Big, Super-Dynamic Troll of Tomorrow)

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Message no. 19
From: Rand Ratinac docwagon101@*****.com
Subject: Questions of great importance (Steve, Jon, RA:S people especially)
Date: Thu, 2 Sep 1999 00:49:22 -0700 (PDT)
> Standard "Cap" looks like an officers hat, just the insignia is
different. A garrison cap is this little narrow thing that looks sort
of like the paper hats worn by the fry cooks at Mc Donalds. With the
BDU's they wear OD Ball caps.

BDUs? Battle Dress Uniform? Fatigues in other words?

> > And another one. :) Would the UCAS troops guarding the Renraku
Arcology be considered under combat conditions (and thus be wearing
urban cammo), or standard conditions (with woodland cammo fatigues)?
>
> Guarding, Probobly woodland. The whole point is to be visible to
deter "looters"... Anyone who actually goes into the arc would probobly
be wearing Urban...

Cool, thanks.
==Doc'
(aka Mr. Freaky Big, Super-Dynamic Troll of Tomorrow)

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Message no. 20
From: Gurth gurth@******.nl
Subject: Questions of great importance (Steve, Jon, RA:S people especially)
Date: Thu, 2 Sep 1999 11:44:30 +0200
According to Starrngr@***.com, at 3:22 on 2 Sep 99, the word on
the street was...

> > HM - where'd this come from (out of curiousity)? And what is the "urban
> > cammo" pattern - if there is one?
>
> My brother in law's closet. He was in the Army reserves, served in the Gulf
> (But not during the gulf war... He was a bean counter and went over to
> account for everything AFTER the shooting stopped!) Regular army units dont
> really USE a urban pattern since they dont like fighting in urban areas per
> se.

And even if/when they do, there's not really the time to issue special
clothing for the job -- urban operations can happen in any part of the
world, so you'll likely see troops wearing whatever is suitable for the
climate the city is in: woodland camo in North America or Europe, desert
camo in North Africa and the Middle East, and so on.

> Special forces probobly do, and I believe their's are Tiger stripes of
> several shades of grey.

There are plenty of different patterns of "urban" camo, mostly involving
white, black, grey, and grey-blue colors in woodland-like patterns. I
think the idea is more to disrupt the enemy's aim than to actually make
the wearer blend in with the background (like WWI "Dazzle" painting on
ships), because in typical urban areas the background changes when you
move only a few meters (unlike in most forests).

--
Gurth@******.nl - http://www.xs4all.nl/~gurth/index.html
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Message no. 21
From: Gurth gurth@******.nl
Subject: Questions of great importance (Steve, Jon, RA:S people especially)
Date: Thu, 2 Sep 1999 11:44:30 +0200
According to Rand Ratinac, at 16:32 on 1 Sep 99, the word on
the street was...

> People, these are some important questions for a couple of stories I'm
> working on and I need CANON answers.
>
> 1. What constructions materials are used in the Shadowrun era? Have
> there been any great advances in this direction?

All kinds of different materials are mentioned in sourcebooks and novels.
Most of them revolve around combinations of the words "plastic,"
"steel,"
"ferrous," and/or "concrete" IIRC: "plasteel,"
"ferrocrete," etc.

> 2. What are the colours of the UCAS army dress uniforms and fatigues?
>
> This one doesn't actually require a canon answer - just a knowledgeable
> one.

You're probably best off using modern-day colors; Starrnger did a pretty
good job of describing it. (The military is generally conservative, and
anyway most of your audience won't know the difference between khaki
battledress and a woodland BDU anyway unless they actually see them side-
by-side :)

> 3. Are there any cultures with legends of "mystic rituals" or the like
> that a) involve human sacrifice and b) grant whoever conducts the
> sacrifice great power?

Not my strong point, but I immediately thought of the Aztecs when reading
this question (but AFAIK they did it to make the sun come up, not to grant
individuals power).

--
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De plaag is terug...!
-> NAGEE Editor * ShadowRN GridSec * Unofficial Shadowrun Guru <-
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Message no. 22
From: Gurth gurth@******.nl
Subject: Questions of great importance (Steve, Jon, RA:S people especially)
Date: Thu, 2 Sep 1999 11:44:30 +0200
According to Rand Ratinac, at 21:15 on 1 Sep 99, the word on
the street was...

> Army transports (trucks and the like, as opposed to combat infantry
> transports) are painted "army green" in current time, correct? Does
> anyone know if the UCAS (SR canon again) uses the same paint for its transports?

Nope. Until the mid-1970s, all American vehicles were painted green, or
actually, olive drab, whose color has already been explained to you :)
(BTW, if you ever see an Australian army vehicle painted in camouflage
pattern, the green color is OD.)

In the early 1970s, the US Army's MERDC (Mobility Equipment Research &
Development Command) developed a camouflage scheme that had twelve basic
colors, of which four were applied to vehicles in fixed patterns to suit
the area to be operated in. By changing one or two of the colors, schemes
could be adjusted to other surroundings -- for example, the "Winter, US &
Europe Verdant" pattern was dark green, a dirty brown, sand, and black,
but by overpainting the brown with white, the pattern changed to "Snow,
Temperate with Trees and Shrubs." Patterns were fixed for each type of
vehicle, though painters were allowed to deviate by about 10% from the
norm. (Many US Army vehicles in Europe remained in forest green, BTW,
which is a dark green color but not with the brown tint OD has.)

By the mid-1980s, it was found that the German three-color pattern of
"bronze green" (between medium and dark green), "tar black" (just flat

black), and "leather brown" (red brown) gave better camouflage, and in the
interest of NATO-standardization it was decided to paint all US vehicles
in this scheme as well, so that an enemy (read: the Warsaw Pact) could not
recognize the particular NATO country in a given sector just by looking at
the camo patterns on the vehicles. Again, these are painted in fixed
patterns, often in the factory, which makes it a bit neater and more
regular than unit-applied camo tends to be.

As for the 2050s and '60s, your guess is as good as mine, I think. I'd
probably go for a three- or four-color pattern for the UCAS military, but
likely only for front-line units due to the budget limitations they're
supposed to have. Other units would then most likely have vehicles painted
in a single color, medium or dark green being the most obvious choice.

--
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De plaag is terug...!
-> NAGEE Editor * ShadowRN GridSec * Unofficial Shadowrun Guru <-
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Message no. 23
From: Gurth gurth@******.nl
Subject: Questions of great importance (Steve, Jon, RA:S people especially)
Date: Thu, 2 Sep 1999 11:44:30 +0200
According to Rand Ratinac, at 21:13 on 1 Sep 99, the word on
the street was...

> And another one. :) Would the UCAS troops guarding the Renraku Arcology
> be considered under combat conditions (and thus be wearing urban
> cammo), or standard conditions (with woodland cammo fatigues)?

Actually, I would expect the UCAS military to only have one camo:
woodland, probably with winter clothing in woodland and white varieties.
Look at the area the UCAS occupies -- in most of it, IMHO woodland is the
best camo, and with the decline of UCAS power (compared to that of the
USA), there would likely be a lot less foreign operations where different
camo patterns would be needed. Yet another reason I can think of for using
only one pattern is the cost involved, and various SR books saying the
military is under-funded.

Anyway, to answer your question: I'd say woodland. It immediately
identifies the soldiers as, well, soldiers, and it intimidates the local
population pretty well (to prevent rioting and looting).

--
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De plaag is terug...!
-> NAGEE Editor * ShadowRN GridSec * Unofficial Shadowrun Guru <-
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Incubated into the First Church of the Sqooshy Ball, 21-05-1998
Message no. 24
From: Gurth gurth@******.nl
Subject: Questions of great importance (Steve, Jon, RA:S people especially)
Date: Thu, 2 Sep 1999 11:44:30 +0200
According to Rand Ratinac, at 22:49 on 1 Sep 99, the word on
the street was...

> > Wear the wool, if you can. It just feels more natural, less like
> > wearing an airtight garbage bag. But if you can't, stay away from old
> > british Ferrets
>
> ???

Ferrets are small British armored cars, used in a number of variants from
the 1950s to at least the early '90s (I'm not sure if any are still in use
in the UK).

--
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De plaag is terug...!
-> NAGEE Editor * ShadowRN GridSec * Unofficial Shadowrun Guru <-
->The Plastic Warriors Page: http://shadowrun.html.com/plasticwarriors/<-
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Incubated into the First Church of the Sqooshy Ball, 21-05-1998
Message no. 25
From: Smilin' Assassin SmilinAssassin@********.demon.co.uk
Subject: Questions of great importance (Steve, Jon, RA:S people especially)
Date: Thu, 2 Sep 1999 12:16:51 +0100
> Ferrets are small British armored cars, used in a number of variants from
> the 1950s to at least the early '90s (I'm not sure if any are
> still in use
> in the UK).
>
Not to my knowledge, but if anyone REALLY wants to know, I'll check with my
"step-son", currently with 1RTR until if formally disolves.

As for black cammo - dunno myself, but I assume that its less "reflective".
Special forces seem to favour it (look at the SAS/Libyan Embassy thing 10ish
years back)

Smilin' Assassin
Message no. 26
From: Arclight arclight@*********.de
Subject: Questions of great importance (Steve, Jon, RA:S people especially)
Date: Thu, 2 Sep 1999 13:22:11 +0200
And finally, Gurth expressed himself by writing:

> Actually, I would expect the UCAS military to only have one camo:
> woodland, probably with winter clothing in woodland and white varieties.
> Look at the area the UCAS occupies -- in most of it, IMHO
> woodland is the
> best camo, and with the decline of UCAS power (compared to that of the
> USA), there would likely be a lot less foreign operations where
> different
> camo patterns would be needed.

Well, the UCAS also "occupies" Seattle, so Urban patterns might
get usual. As the Seattle Metroplex guard trains to defend the
enclave, and they have that neat UCS, they would have a use and
need for such a camo pattern.

--
[arclight@*********.de]<><><><><><>[ICQ14322211]
Vorsicht Ritchie, ein Hochhäus!! - Wer?
<><><><[http://www.datahaven.de/arclight]><><><>;
Message no. 27
From: Arclight arclight@*********.de
Subject: Questions of great importance (Steve, Jon, RA:S people especially)
Date: Thu, 2 Sep 1999 13:22:10 +0200
And finally, Rand Ratinac expressed himself by writing:

> fighting in urban areas per se. Special forces probobly do, and I
> believe their's are Tiger stripes of several shades of grey.
>
> Don't suppose anyone knows where I could find a pic of this on the net?

I could send you one, and another version in blue-black tiger stripe

--
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<><><><[http://www.datahaven.de/arclight]><><><>;
Message no. 28
From: Arclight arclight@*********.de
Subject: Questions of great importance (Steve, Jon, RA:S people especially)
Date: Thu, 2 Sep 1999 13:22:03 +0200
And finally, Rand Ratinac expressed himself by writing:

> And another one. :) Would the UCAS troops guarding the Renraku Arcology
> be considered under combat conditions (and thus be wearing urban
> cammo), or standard conditions (with woodland cammo fatigues)?

RA:S,p.8

"Behind the sandbags, soldiers in urban camo scurry like bugs."

--
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Vorsicht Ritchie, ein Hochhäus!! - Wer?
<><><><[http://www.datahaven.de/arclight]><><><>;
Message no. 29
From: Iridios iridios@*********.com
Subject: Questions of great importance (Steve, Jon, RA:S people especially)
Date: Thu, 02 Sep 1999 08:30:25 -0400
Rand Ratinac wrote:

> One more q. What's a "garrison cap"? For that matter, what's the
> standard cap?

The standard cap is best described as a Bus Drivers hat (at least
that's what we called it in the Air Force). However that might not be
the best description. It is a stiff cap, with a flat top, sides that
angle inward a bit, and a hard plastic sun visor (bill).




>
> And another one. :) Would the UCAS troops guarding the Renraku Arcology
> be considered under combat conditions (and thus be wearing urban
> cammo), or standard conditions (with woodland cammo fatigues)?

In Seattle, I would assume that UCAS troops would be wearing standard
camo for 2 reasons. First, it probably was a sudden deployment which
meant that there was no time to issue special uniforms. And second,
it is more of a garrison duty and inside UCAS borders.

Special Forces however might be wearing special uniforms, but the
average soldier on duty in the streets would be wearing standard
issue. It might even be pressed and starched. With all the media
running around the UCAS military just might be worried about image.


> ==> Doc'
> (aka Mr. Freaky Big, Super-Dynamic Troll of Tomorrow)
>
> .sig Sauer
> __________________________________________________
> Do You Yahoo!?
> Bid and sell for free at http://auctions.yahoo.com


--
Iridios
"Accept what you cannot avoid,
Avoid what you cannot accept."
Message no. 30
From: Iridios iridios@*********.com
Subject: Questions of great importance (Steve, Jon, RA:S people especially)
Date: Thu, 02 Sep 1999 08:42:10 -0400
Rand Ratinac wrote:

> Btw, if black sucks so hard, why do people insist on using it? Or is
> that a Hollywood fallacy?

It is more likely the average persons (including movie producers)
perception that black things are hard to see in the dark. This is
partly true, a black stationary object is very hard to see in the
dark; but a black spot that is moving is easier to pick out due to
it's obstruction of background images (stars, streetlights, reflected
light, etc). I once read an article by a Vietnam veteran, that
captured VC soldiers admitted that they tracked US soldiers by looking
for the "black sticks" (M16s/M14s) that moved through the jungles.

The purpose of camoflague is to break up a pattern enough to "hide"
it's wearer. Anytime you are moving, it is less effective.


--
Iridios
"Accept what you cannot avoid,
Avoid what you cannot accept."
Message no. 31
From: Mockingbird mockingbird@*********.com
Subject: Questions of great importance (Steve, Jon, RA:S people especially)
Date: Thu, 2 Sep 1999 09:18:53 -0500
----- Original Message -----
From: Rand Ratinac <docwagon101@*****.com>
To: <shadowrn@*********.org>
Sent: Wednesday, September 01, 1999 8:53 PM
Subject: Re: Questions of great importance (Steve, Jon, RA:S people
especially)


>
> I'm looking for something where the killer is supposed to be the one
> getting the mystical "shot-in-the-arm" from the slaying.
>

The villian in the latest Zorro movie (Antonios Bandanas) makes a
comment about a group who believed something like this. Maybe that
would be a good starting place.

Mockingbird
Message no. 32
From: Martin Murray martin.murray@**********.com
Subject: Questions of great importance (Steve, Jon, RA:S people especially)
Date: Thu, 2 Sep 1999 16:52:54 +0100
> > Whats the refresh rate on Ruthenium?
>
> Pretty damn quick, as I recall. I don't have SHADOWTECH anywhere close to
> me at the moment, but I seem to recall that it could change in small
> fractions of a second. The local group hasn't met him yet, but there's a
> baddie in my game world somewhere with a ruthenium suit of the type being
> discussed, and as I interpret things, it's about Predator-fast. You're
> still going to get a blur when he's moving, but when he's holding still,
> it's spooky.


Shadowtech sez about 100/th of a second to change the polymer cells. If you
allow maybe a few more hundredths to do the sampling and the math and then
the transmission, you're talking about complete color changes in about 20/th
of a second or less. IMHO this would be quite perceptible to naked eye
observers, especially in good lighting conditions. I don't think it would be
predator good, while moving, but certainly almost invisible while
stationary. Don't forget though, the polymers can be damaged fairly easily
if the armor is hit by weapons fire.

MJM
Message no. 33
From: Rat winterhawk@*********.net
Subject: Questions of great importance (Steve, Jon, RA:S people especially)
Date: Thu, 02 Sep 1999 09:21:59 -0700
TalonMail@***.com writes:

> I suspect Jon Szeto could answer this one better than I, but
> I've always assumed they're the same as the old United
> States Army. Bob Charrette's last Shadowrun novel (the name
> escapes me at the moment) might also have some
> information, since the Army is fairly heavily involved.
>

I think that'd be 'Just Compensation.'

(One which I admit I could not make it through.)

--Rat

=>=>=>=>=>=>=>=>=>=>=>=>=>=>=>=>=>=>=>=>=>=>=>=>=>=>=>=>=>=>=>=>
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Winterhawk's Virtual Magespace - Shadowrun Fiction and More!
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Message no. 34
From: Drashal drashal1@*****.com
Subject: Questions of great importance (Steve, Jon, RA:S people especially)
Date: Thu, 2 Sep 1999 11:49:27 -0700 (PDT)
we are talking realy big rounds like in the 50mm - 125
mm range here and even then they will need top be
moving realy fast like 750mph+

so unless its vehicle mounted you will not get the
round missing the target but still killing the guy
efect

D-






==......And the Dodo sang "Every thing you think you know is wrong".........
__________________________________________________
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Message no. 35
From: abortion_engine abortion_engine@*******.com
Subject: Questions of great importance (Steve, Jon, RA:S people especially)
Date: Thu, 2 Sep 1999 15:22:54 -0400
> fighting in urban areas per se. Special forces probobly do, and I
> believe their's are Tiger stripes of several shades of grey.
>
All my Urban Camo is near-black, near white, and vertical patterns of greys.
I've seen other stuff, but this stuff breaks up sight lines pretty well.
[Doesn't help a bit under a street light, in case you were wondering.]
Again, camo is only part of the answer to concealment.

Don't forget, most of the troops have no reason to hide. [As I think a few
people have mentioned.]
Message no. 36
From: abortion_engine abortion_engine@*******.com
Subject: Questions of great importance (Steve, Jon, RA:S people especially)
Date: Thu, 2 Sep 1999 15:23:45 -0400
> we are talking realy big rounds like in the 50mm - 125
> mm range here and even then they will need top be
> moving realy fast like 750mph+
>
> so unless its vehicle mounted you will not get the
> round missing the target but still killing the guy
> efect

1/2 inch [.50 caliber] and 1400 fps do the job very nicely.
Message no. 37
From: abortion_engine abortion_engine@*******.com
Subject: Questions of great importance (Steve, Jon, RA:S people especially)
Date: Thu, 2 Sep 1999 15:28:04 -0400
> Ferrets are small British armored cars, used in a number of variants from
> the 1950s to at least the early '90s (I'm not sure if any are still in use
> in the UK).

Only for target practice, Gurth. Only for target practice.

Although Richard D. James [Aphex Twin] owns one. But he left is parked at
his parents, and doesn't drive it much. Wierdo.
Message no. 38
From: abortion_engine abortion_engine@*******.com
Subject: Questions of great importance (Steve, Jon, RA:S people especially)
Date: Thu, 2 Sep 1999 15:32:22 -0400
> At 02.19 09-02-99 -0400, you wrote:
> >A lot of times, bigger rounds will have enough energy surrounding them in
> >the air to take heads right off people. It's one of the first things they
>
> Really?
> I've never had someone with a serious mad on for me and a 50 come after
> me, but I've had rifle rounds (7.62x51) come close enough to clip hair and
> it didn't even damage my hearing in that ear to detectable levels.
> .50 cal puts out a lot more energy, but the bow wave is not going to have
> a huge increase in force. Not enough to compormise skull integrity.
> I'm just saying that I would want to see it, thats all.
>
Oh yeah. You'd love to see it. What a show. :)

I'm told it has a lot to do with the greater velocity of .50c rounds. Well,
and the fact that they come out of the barrel practically on top of each
other. 7.62 is a bad-ass round [in my opinion] but the bowshock of a round,
or even a few, is nothing in comparison to a half-inch diameter stream of
bullets.

What you really need is to get a .50 cal machine gun and shoot it near a
watermelon. It's so much more fun when you're doing it yourself. It makes
your arms tingle after you're done. Praise the lord and pass the ammunition.
Message no. 39
From: abortion_engine abortion_engine@*******.com
Subject: Questions of great importance (Steve, Jon, RA:S peopleespecially)
Date: Thu, 2 Sep 1999 15:25:21 -0400
Adding to K's answer, don't forget the druids. Don't ever forget the druids.

> > 3. Are there any cultures with legends of "mystic rituals" or the
like
> > that a) involve human sacrifice and b) grant whoever conducts the
> > sacrifice great power?
> >
> > I'm looking for something where the killer is supposed to be the one
> > getting the mystical "shot-in-the-arm" from the slaying.
>
> Doc: You may actually want to consider many, if not ALL, of the Central
> American to South Andean Highland "Tribes", ranging in time from from
2,000BC
> to within the last century or so. Additionally, you may also want to
> consider some of the NAN/Amerindians and their "Warrior Customs"
concerning
> such things as the hunting of a powerful animal (Wolf, Bear, Stag, Buffalo
> even) and drinking of the blood that poored from the heart of the freshly
> killed beast.
>
> Also note that in some cultures removing the head of a victim and
breathing
> from the mouth meant that you were stealing its' spirit as well (South
> Pacific and even some Toltec/Amazonian).
>
> Orishan (Steve K, is this spelling/intent right? I can't recall) beliefs
> also included such things as taking the hides of certain opponents and
> wearing them into battle to instill fear (and I do mean more than just
animal
> hides here). BTW: Orishan are the ancestors of the Loa for the most part.
>
> Greeks actually had similar practices as well, as did the Sumerian,
> Babylonian and Phoenician where it came to drinking the blood of either an
> opponent or a powerful beast in order to gain its' strength/spirit. I
can't
> honestly recall if the Romans' carried over the practice or not. And
hell,
> for that matter, I'm NOT going to go the distance to consider the earlier
> kingdom ranges of Egypt.
>
> This help any?
>
> -K
>
>
Message no. 40
From: Gurth gurth@******.nl
Subject: Questions of great importance (Steve, Jon, RA:S people especially)
Date: Thu, 2 Sep 1999 21:36:31 +0200
According to Arclight, at 13:22 on 2 Sep 99, the word on
the street was...

> Well, the UCAS also "occupies" Seattle, so Urban patterns might
> get usual. As the Seattle Metroplex guard trains to defend the
> enclave, and they have that neat UCS, they would have a use and
> need for such a camo pattern.

Truem but that also depends on how much of the Metroplex is actually urban
terrain, and how much consists of parks, agricultural areas, and other
"green bits." Plus, of course, the defense budget -- the Metroplex Guard
is supposed to have obsolescent equipment...

--
Gurth@******.nl - http://www.xs4all.nl/~gurth/index.html
De plaag is terug...!
-> NAGEE Editor * ShadowRN GridSec * Unofficial Shadowrun Guru <-
->The Plastic Warriors Page: http://shadowrun.html.com/plasticwarriors/<-
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Message no. 41
From: Gurth gurth@******.nl
Subject: Questions of great importance (Steve, Jon, RA:S people especially)
Date: Thu, 2 Sep 1999 21:36:31 +0200
According to Ereskanti@***.com, at 8:52 on 2 Sep 99, the word on
the street was...

> Interesting, we just ran across a small convoy of about 4-5 vehicles in a
> MUCH darker color, almost black-level green. Really different IMO.

The shade of modern militarty paints varies a lot with the way light falls
onto them, as well as with wear and how much they were thinned before
being sprayed on the vehicle. For instance, according to one ex-British
Army tanker, in his platoon they tended to paint two Chieftain MBTs with
paint thinned with gasoline, and the third with paint-colored gasoline.

In short, there is no such thing as a single color that all military
vehicles of any given country are -- no matter how much some people try to
tell you otherwise. (This, BTW, is a favorite flame war among military
modellers -- "That's not the right color green on that model!" "Yes it
is!" "No it isn't!" etc....)

--
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De plaag is terug...!
-> NAGEE Editor * ShadowRN GridSec * Unofficial Shadowrun Guru <-
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Incubated into the First Church of the Sqooshy Ball, 21-05-1998
Message no. 42
From: Gurth gurth@******.nl
Subject: Questions of great importance (Steve, Jon, RA:S people especially)
Date: Thu, 2 Sep 1999 21:36:31 +0200
According to Smilin' Assassin, at 12:16 on 2 Sep 99, the word on
the street was...

> As for black cammo - dunno myself, but I assume that its less "reflective".
> Special forces seem to favour it (look at the SAS/Libyan Embassy thing 10ish
> years back)

20 years -- Operation Nimrod was in 1980. If you ever go to the Imperial
War Museum in London, they have a really good display about that operation
(or at least they did when I was last there, about three years ago).

The black "camo" used in the Iranian embassy siege (and made popular by
the SAS there and then, BTW), is not really camouflage but intended to
intimidate: first they blow up the door or window, then they throw in some
flashbangs, and next, anyone still in the room and able to think sees
completely black troopers coming in. Tell me you wouldn't be scared :)

--
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De plaag is terug...!
-> NAGEE Editor * ShadowRN GridSec * Unofficial Shadowrun Guru <-
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Incubated into the First Church of the Sqooshy Ball, 21-05-1998
Message no. 43
From: abortion_engine abortion_engine@*******.com
Subject: Questions of great importance (Steve, Jon, RA:S people especially)
Date: Thu, 2 Sep 1999 15:35:12 -0400
> At 23.27 09-01-99 -0700, you wrote:
> >Err...I thought hydrostatic shock had been debunked as a myth.
>
I'm told--again, this isn't one I've seen personally--that if a round
travelling 1400 fps hits anything fluid in a human body that is
significantly larger than a capillary, the shock will transfer through the
fluid and blow the valves out of your heart. It seems a little rediculous,
but 1400 fps is FAST, and bullets do the wierdest things...

Oh, it occurs to me where I picked up the wording for that description: Lone
Star. There's a very good overview in that. And a lot of good stuff about
bullets and guns.
Message no. 44
From: Marc Renouf renouf@********.com
Subject: Questions of great importance (Steve, Jon, RA:S people especially)
Date: Thu, 2 Sep 1999 16:05:19 -0400 (EDT)
On Thu, 2 Sep 1999, abortion_engine wrote:

> I'm told--again, this isn't one I've seen personally--that if a round
> travelling 1400 fps hits anything fluid in a human body that is
> significantly larger than a capillary, the shock will transfer through the
> fluid and blow the valves out of your heart. It seems a little rediculous,
> but 1400 fps is FAST, and bullets do the wierdest things...

1400 fps is not that fast. It's fast for a pistol round, but not
for a rifle. What you're talking about is "hydrostatic shock" and while
it's based on real physics, it doesn't actually work the way people claim
it works. In other words, it's bunk.

Marc
Message no. 45
From: Wildfire Wildfire@*************.com
Subject: Questions of great importance (Steve, Jon, RA:S peopleespecially)
Date: Thu, 02 Sep 1999 16:37:49 -0400
Ereskanti@***.com wrote:

> In a message dated 9/2/1999 11:30:21 AM US Eastern Standard Time,
> sommers@*****.edu writes:
>
> >
> > The whole CAD/CAM building idea is just a continuation of current
> > development. The Boeing 777 was the first commercial craft designed
> > completely on the computer before any prototype was built. Each subsystem
> > was loaded onto the main system and assembled with the rest of the
> > components. When it was ready, they ran a program (I think it was called
> > Bob) that simulated a maintenance worker, who crawled all around the
> plane.
> > From there, they figured out what would be hard to access and changed the
> > esign to make it easier to get into.
> >
> > Doing this for a building would actually be easier, especially with the
> > simsense rigs from the Matrix doing the job in true 3-D.
>
> Okay, mild story time here, with a question. Did *anyone* else see that show
> on Discovery/The Learning Channel concerning "One Step Beyond" or
something.
> It had Kate Mulgrew (Kathryn Janeway of ST:Voyager) doing the voice/narration.
>
> Anyway, there was something *really* cool in it that I have to admit I was
> shocked to see. It had a setup that could build models out of
> epoxy-polymer/resin using a laser. The laser would trace the outline in the
> resin, and whereever the resin traced would solidy. The layer was lowered
> down, and the laser system continued on its' merry work. In about 2-3 hours
> I think it said they had a too-specification model of the space shuttle
> (exterior) ready for usage in other places (like wind tunnels or advanced
> rendering concepts). It was cool as I could imagine and wondered if this
> kind material and setup could be done as a "shop" in SR.
>
> I was imagining using this as the setup for doing simpler, more impact
> related, armors, possible bod 0/1 drone chassis, or even just
cases/"extras"
> that a runner would need.
>
> Hell, with something like they were showing I was imagining someone coming up
> with a custom-designed gun that would be fully functional (if just light
> powered) and being "built" inside the casing to something else. Made to
form
> gear....
>
> -K

Can't say that I specifically saw that show, but I do remember watching some sort
of documentary about 3-D visualization which mentioned that. Also had a little
snippet about shared virtual environments, both of which sound like cool ideas. I
like your ideas about the resin and things inside of things. I think it would be
entirely feasable. The other thought I had with the shared virtual environments
was how good is the security as to who is allowed in? Imagine a decker being able
to "help" design a building or facility of a mega corp...

Wildfire
Message no. 46
From: Mockingbird mockingbird@*********.com
Subject: Questions of great importance (Steve, Jon, RA:S people especially)
Date: Thu, 2 Sep 1999 15:42:26 -0500
I only spell as good as my computer's spellchecker. :) Sorry.

Mockingbird

----- Original Message -----
From: <Ereskanti@***.com>
To: <shadowrn@*********.org>
Sent: Thursday, September 02, 1999 3:01 PM
Subject: Re: Questions of great importance (Steve, Jon, RA:S people
especially)


> In a message dated 9/2/1999 9:20:08 AM US Eastern Standard Time,
> mockingbird@*********.com writes:
>
> >
> > The villian in the latest Zorro movie (Antonios Bandanas) makes a
> > comment about a group who believed something like this. Maybe that
> > would be a good starting place.
>
> Okay, I'm hoping it was a typo...but "Bandanas" has given me all sorts
of
> goofy visual images here....
>
> -K (who enjoyed that laugh)
>
>
Message no. 47
From: Marc Renouf renouf@********.com
Subject: Questions of great importance (Steve, Jon, RA:S people especially)
Date: Thu, 2 Sep 1999 17:05:12 -0400 (EDT)
On Thu, 2 Sep 1999 Ereskanti@***.com wrote:

> Anyway, there was something *really* cool in it that I have to admit I was
> shocked to see. It had a setup that could build models out of
> epoxy-polymer/resin using a laser. The laser would trace the outline in the
> resin, and whereever the resin traced would solidy. The layer was lowered
> down, and the laser system continued on its' merry work.

It's called stereo-lithography. It's a pretty keen. My wife
worked with one in one of the labs she worked at here at the University of
Michigan. It was used for rapid prototyping of parts for the auto
industry.

Marc
Message no. 48
From: Arclight arclight@*********.de
Subject: Questions of great importance (Steve, Jon, RA:S people especially)
Date: Fri, 3 Sep 1999 01:42:10 +0200
And finally, Gurth expressed himself by writing:

<snip>

> In short, there is no such thing as a single color that all military
> vehicles of any given country are -- no matter how much some
> people try to tell you otherwise.

IMO the newer vehicles tend to have the same color, but as they have
their paint job redone individually, this changes with time passing.
Within the Bundeswehr, they use a 3-color pattern or just bronze-gruen,
BTW. The latter normally for support vehicles.

--
[arclight@*********.de]<><><><><><>[ICQ14322211]
Vorsicht Ritchie, ein Hochhäus!! - Wer?
<><><><[http://www.datahaven.de/arclight]><><><>;
Message no. 49
From: Arclight arclight@*********.de
Subject: Questions of great importance (Steve, Jon, RA:S people especially)
Date: Fri, 3 Sep 1999 01:42:16 +0200
And finally, Gurth expressed himself by writing:

> Truem but that also depends on how much of the Metroplex is
> actually urban
> terrain, and how much consists of parks, agricultural areas, and other
> "green bits." Plus, of course, the defense budget -- the Metroplex Guard
> is supposed to have obsolescent equipment...

Clothing is not a big part of a units budget, I would tend to say.
The "aging equipment" part should have impact on vehicles, communications
and heavy weapons (like ATGMs, for exampel) but not individual gear.

--
[arclight@*********.de]<><><><><><>[ICQ14322211]
Vorsicht Ritchie, ein Hochhäus!! - Wer?
<><><><[http://www.datahaven.de/arclight]><><><>;
Message no. 50
From: Rand Ratinac docwagon101@*****.com
Subject: Questions of great importance (Steve, Jon, RA:S people especially)
Date: Thu, 2 Sep 1999 19:02:08 -0700 (PDT)
> >Yeah, but that doesn't help me. Why would spec forces or SEALs wear
black? They don't need intimidation - they need concealment.
>
> When you are door kicking and doing nothing else, you use it along
with gas mask, balacava and bright lights to get every thousandth of a
second hesitation out of your opponent you can.
> Special units also sometimes where it for PR stuff becuase they are
expected to, and sometimes in the field for the same reason (black is
SOOO sexy), but it is a dumb reason IMO.

Sorry - have to remember that you guys aren't in my head. :)

Door-kicking is the LAST thing the team wants to do, as I'm sure anyone
who's played around with the arc knows. Fights should only last long
enough for a small team to escape, otherwise they'll get swarmed by the
bad guys.

Concealment is KING for what I'm writing about.

> HOwever, UCAS gaurds on the outside of the Arc may use black for
this reason, and they would have most likely procured either
intimidation-black or some kind of urban pattern after the situation in
Chigaco.
> Kevin Dole, aka CyberRaven, aka IronRaven, aka Steel Tengu

So you see them as considering guarding the exterior of the arc a
combat assignment?

Again, which urban pattern? Urban urban or subdued urban?
==Doc'
(aka Mr. Freaky Big, Super-Dynamic Troll of Tomorrow)

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Message no. 51
From: Rand Ratinac docwagon101@*****.com
Subject: Questions of great importance (Steve, Jon, RA:S people especially)
Date: Thu, 2 Sep 1999 19:05:25 -0700 (PDT)
> > I'm looking for something where the killer is supposed to be the
one getting the mystical "shot-in-the-arm" from the slaying.
>
> The villian in the latest Zorro movie (Antonios Bandanas) makes a
comment about a group who believed something like this. Maybe that
would be a good starting place.
>
> Mockingbird

Haven't seen that one. Can you give me some details?

Btw, wasn't Antonio Banderas Zorro? I.E. the hero?
==Doc'
(aka Mr. Freaky Big, Super-Dynamic Troll of Tomorrow)

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Message no. 52
From: Rand Ratinac docwagon101@*****.com
Subject: Questions of great importance (Steve, Jon, RA:S people especially)
Date: Thu, 2 Sep 1999 19:10:15 -0700 (PDT)
> > Thanks for the input. In this case, though, concealment is
everything.
> >
> > Same thing I asked Kevin. UCAS spec forces team going into the
Renraku Arcology. Armoured bodysuits, reversible armoured vests. The
arc is well-lit in places, dark in others. What's the best set of
cammos for a situation like that?
>
> Truthfully???
>
> How about PolyPOV Ruthenium? Considering what the team would be
doing and where they are going, this is entirely possible.
> -K

*Doc' McSlaps(TM) his forehead.

"McDuh(TM)!!!"*

Of course! Ruthenium!!

As I said before, toys is EVERYTHING to this team. Expense means
nothing. Of COURSE they'd have ruthenium polymers.

Errr...this question may be out of line, but...

Are ruthenium polymers getting an update in M&M?
==Doc'
(aka Mr. Freaky Big, Super-Dynamic Troll of Tomorrow)

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Message no. 53
From: Rand Ratinac docwagon101@*****.com
Subject: Questions of great importance (Steve, Jon, RA:S people especially)
Date: Thu, 2 Sep 1999 19:17:33 -0700 (PDT)
> > And another one. :) Would the UCAS troops guarding the Renraku
Arcology be considered under combat conditions (and thus be wearing
urban cammo), or standard conditions (with woodland cammo fatigues)?
>
> Well, considering that people have been killed, many of them just
UCAS citizens, I'd say it would qualify as a "HOSTILE" situation to me.
;-P
> -K (who isn't going to mention the activated gun turrets or missile
deployments systems right now... )

That's nice - but none of these guys ever go into - or even
particularly close - to the arc. That's Red Samurai turf.

And wouldn't it make sense for the army to try to keep an illusion of a
semblance of a tad of a milligram of normality? :) In which case they'd
be using woodland cammo fatigues, right?
==Doc'
(aka Mr. Freaky Big, Super-Dynamic Troll of Tomorrow)

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Message no. 54
From: Patrick Goodman remo@***.net
Subject: Questions of great importance (Steve, Jon, RA:S people especially)
Date: Thu, 2 Sep 1999 21:39:06 -0500
> > The villian in the latest Zorro movie (Antonios Bandanas) makes a
> > comment about a group who believed something like this. Maybe that
> > would be a good starting place.
>
> Haven't seen that one. Can you give me some details?

I think it's out on video, even in Australia, Doc'. It's extremely
enjoyable; I had a marvelous time (and Catherine Zeta-Jones is the finest
export ever from Wales).

Basically, the man responsible for killing the brother of Banderas's
character has a chat with him, telling him of a tribe who cannibalized their
enemies to gain their power. This is just before he brings out his
brother's head in a large jar.

Captain Love was a despicable sort, and a great deal of fun as the villain.

> Btw, wasn't Antonio Banderas Zorro? I.E. the hero?

Antonio was the hero, but he wasn't Zorro. Exactly. The phrasing of
Mockingbird's message was a little wonky.

--
(>) Texas 2-Step
El Paso: Never surrender. Never forget. Never forgive.
Message no. 55
From: Rand Ratinac docwagon101@*****.com
Subject: Questions of great importance (Steve, Jon, RA:S peopleespecially)
Date: Thu, 2 Sep 1999 19:49:18 -0700 (PDT)
--- abortion_engine <abortion_engine@*******.com> wrote:
> Adding to K's answer, don't forget the druids. Don't ever forget the
druids.

As I said before, though, weren't the druidic sacrificial practises
religious in nature, as opposed to the "shot-in-the-arm" thing I'm
looking for?

==Doc'
(aka Mr. Freaky Big, Super-Dynamic Troll of Tomorrow)

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Message no. 56
From: Rand Ratinac docwagon101@*****.com
Subject: Questions of great importance (Steve, Jon, RA:S people especially)
Date: Thu, 2 Sep 1999 19:52:03 -0700 (PDT)
> > fighting in urban areas per se. Special forces probobly do, and I
believe their's are Tiger stripes of several shades of grey.
> >
> All my Urban Camo is near-black, near white, and vertical patterns of
greys. I've seen other stuff, but this stuff breaks up sight lines
pretty well. [Doesn't help a bit under a street light, in case you were
wondering.] Again, camo is only part of the answer to concealment.
>
> Don't forget, most of the troops have no reason to hide. [As I think
a few people have mentioned.]

My guys do. :)

AE, is this British army cammos, or what? (I get the feeling you aren't
in America, but apart from that, well...)
==Doc'
(aka Mr. Freaky Big, Super-Dynamic Troll of Tomorrow)

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Message no. 57
From: Rand Ratinac docwagon101@*****.com
Subject: Questions of great importance (Steve, Jon, RA:S people especially)
Date: Thu, 2 Sep 1999 19:56:41 -0700 (PDT)
> Pg 94 "Once Curent is applied, the response is almost immediate, with
a delay of less than one hundredth of a second" The big problem is
that at the bottom of the page "Any armor modified to include a
Ruthenium polymer surface reduces its impact and balistic ratings in
half (round down)" In the shadow talk Hatchetman also warns that the
"gel pack" that powers the suit is only good for about 30 minutes,
though that is one I could see the military finding a way around. The
other, BIG concern is that it wont shield you from Radar, Ultrasound,
or Thermo... So your big concern would be Deus's drone toys.

Well, as I said, I'm going to ignore the armour reduction if I use this
(so sue me!) and I'd also expect the military to have improved the life
of the batteries. And as for radar etc. - well, normal cammo doesn't
help diddly-squat against that anyway, so it doesn't worry me. That's
what I have the ork heavy weapons specialist with the milspec laser
for. :)

BIG QUESTION:

Does ANYONE know what ruthenium polymers look like when they're not
active? This one's going to be important if I'm going to use them. If
it's in Shadowtech, great! I've got that. If it's not...HELP!!!
==Doc'
(aka Mr. Freaky Big, Super-Dynamic Troll of Tomorrow)

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Message no. 58
From: Rand Ratinac docwagon101@*****.com
Subject: Questions of great importance (Steve, Jon, RA:S people especially)
Date: Thu, 2 Sep 1999 20:05:57 -0700 (PDT)
> Shadowtech sez about 100/th of a second to change the polymer cells.
If you allow maybe a few more hundredths to do the sampling and the
math and then the transmission, you're talking about complete color
changes in about 20/th of a second or less. IMHO this would be quite
perceptible to naked eye observers, especially in good lighting
conditions. I don't think it would be predator good, while moving, but
certainly almost invisible while stationary. Don't forget though, the
polymers can be damaged fairly easily if the armor is hit by weapons
fire.
> MJM

Which is perfectly fine for my purposes.

*says Doc', rubbing his hands together with an evil grin and a maniacal
cackle...*

'Nother question.

Given the preponderance of light body armour in SR, do you guys think
standard army uniforms are now armoured? I can easily see fatigues as
being of the "armoured cammo bodysuit" class from SR3 and Fields of
Fire, but what about day uniforms and dress uniforms? Armoured
clothing, or just standard clothes?
==Doc'
(aka Mr. Freaky Big, Super-Dynamic Troll of Tomorrow)

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Message no. 59
From: Rand Ratinac docwagon101@*****.com
Subject: Questions of great importance (Steve, Jon, RA:S people especially)
Date: Thu, 2 Sep 1999 20:15:15 -0700 (PDT)
> The standard cap is best described as a Bus Drivers hat (at least
that's what we called it in the Air Force). However that might not be
the best description. It is a stiff cap, with a flat top, sides that
angle inward a bit, and a hard plastic sun visor (bill).

You mean the thing you see officers wearing with their dress uniforms
on TV all the time (albeit with different colours probably) - the one
they tuck under their arms when they doff it.

> In Seattle, I would assume that UCAS troops would be wearing standard
camo for 2 reasons. First, it probably was a sudden deployment which
meant that there was no time to issue special uniforms. And second, it
is more of a garrison duty and inside UCAS borders.
>
> Special Forces however might be wearing special uniforms, but the
average soldier on duty in the streets would be wearing standard issue.
It might even be pressed and starched. With all the media running
around the UCAS military just might be worried about image.
> Iridios

That one makes a LOT of sense to me.
==Doc'
(aka Mr. Freaky Big, Super-Dynamic Troll of Tomorrow)

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Message no. 60
From: Rand Ratinac docwagon101@*****.com
Subject: Questions of great importance (Steve, Jon, RA:S people especially)
Date: Thu, 2 Sep 1999 20:17:54 -0700 (PDT)
> >Pssst...Kevin - this particular post was sent to Starrngr (also
known
>
> Ooops, it went to the list so I figured it was a greneral question.

Sorry. Poor phrasing again. I meant it was sent in RESPONSE to him. NBD
- all input is welcome. 'Specially from you army brats. :)

> >Query: "OD"?
>
> Olive Drab- nasty army green.

You're right - it IS rather nasty. :)

Why on earth did they ever choose that colour?
==Doc'
(aka Mr. Freaky Big, Super-Dynamic Troll of Tomorrow)

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Message no. 61
From: Patrick Goodman remo@***.net
Subject: Questions of great importance (Steve, Jon, RA:S people especially)
Date: Thu, 2 Sep 1999 22:18:45 -0500
> Errr...this question may be out of line, but...
>
> Are ruthenium polymers getting an update in M&M?

Dunno, but I'd think that they'd just about have to address them, since
CYBERTECHNOLOGY gave us ruthenium-based dermal sheathing. Since M&M is
supposed to address all the cyberware so far introduced, I think they'd at
least have to mention the stuff.

I could, though, be completely wrong. I hope I'm not, though, since I like
the idea of ruthie camo suits.

--
(>) Texas 2-Step
El Paso: Never surrender. Never forget. Never forgive.
Message no. 62
From: Patrick Goodman remo@***.net
Subject: Questions of great importance (Steve, Jon, RA:S people especially)
Date: Thu, 2 Sep 1999 22:18:48 -0500
> > Pretty damn quick, as I recall. I don't have SHADOWTECH anywhere
> > close to me at the moment, but I seem to recall that it could change
> > in small fractions of a second. The local group hasn't met him yet,
> > but there's a baddie in my game world somewhere with a ruthenium suit
> > of the type being discussed, and as I interpret things, it's about
> > Predator-fast. You're still going to get a blur when he's moving, but
> > when he's holding still, it's spooky.
>
> Shadowtech sez about 100/th of a second to change the polymer cells. If
> you allow maybe a few more hundredths to do the sampling and the math and
> then the transmission, you're talking about complete color changes in
> about 20/th of a second or less.

I'm assuming that there's been a SOTA upgrade in processor power and
scanning technology in the ten years or so since ruthenium polymers were
introduced. A pretty significant one, at that.

> I don't think it would be predator good, while moving, but certainly
> almost invisible while stationary.

I can see arguments either way on the "Predator good" issue; since he's an
NPC, and I'm inclined to like this sort of system, it's going to be pretty
close, though it works on a different principle.

Besides, everyone knows that the closest to a Predator's camoflage comes not
from ruthenium polymer fibers, but from Mother Nature. Wanna panic some
PCs? Sic a bandersnatch or two on them. It works. Honest.

> Don't forget though, the polymers can be damaged fairly easily
> if the armor is hit by weapons fire.

I'm thinking that the polymers would be bonded with the material, and then
coated with an acrylic laminate of some sort to toughen it. It's still not
going to be perfect, or indestructible, but it will be tougher.

--
(>) Texas 2-Step
El Paso: Never surrender. Never forget. Never forgive.
Message no. 63
From: Patrick Goodman remo@***.net
Subject: Questions of great importance (Steve, Jon, RA:S people especially)
Date: Thu, 2 Sep 1999 22:27:12 -0500
> Pg 94 "Once Curent is applied, the response is almost immediate, with
> a delay of less than one hundredth of a second"

Muchas gracias for the page citation.

> The big problem is that at the bottom of the page "Any armor modified
> to include a Ruthenium polymer surface reduces its impact and balistic
> ratings in half (round down)"

I'm factoring in SOTA as making the fibers more durable, since I thought
that this particular ruling was majorly silly.

> In the shadow talk Hatchetman also warns that the "gel pack" that powers
> the suit is only good for about 30 minutes, though that is one I could
> see the military finding a way around.

SOTA again. It's been ten years since that came out; things change.

Of course, that sort of electrical field going on all the time around your
body will probably cause cancer. Everything else does.

> The other, BIG concern is that it wont shield you from Radar,
> Ultrasound, or Thermo... So your big concern would be Deus's drone toys.

True enough, though there's tech today to protect you from thermo, at least.
I didn't say the idea was perfect.

--
(>) Texas 2-Step
El Paso: Never surrender. Never forget. Never forgive.
Message no. 64
From: Rand Ratinac docwagon101@*****.com
Subject: Questions of great importance (Steve, Jon, RA:S people especially)
Date: Thu, 2 Sep 1999 20:30:42 -0700 (PDT)
Thanks for the cammo data, Kevin, but I think we have a solution there
- if I can work out the OTHER problems ruthenium causes. :)

> or maybe watch Aliens and use the stuff that the Marines were wearing
(I've never been able to find an exact match for that stuff
commerically, but it is an increadable pattern that I would love to
evaluate).

Eh? What pattern was that? Is it on the web somewhere? (I'd check it
out, but I'm not sure if I'm going to have the time to rent the video
for a while - and I'm not stupid enough to do a web search on "Aliens"
:) ).

> The purpose of the pattern is help break up your outline into an
irregualr one with natural colours and/or one that artifical sensors
can't process very well (that "night desert" plaid stuff is an example,
which was the first of the computer generated camos, which I expect to
see more of in the future to help screw with remote observation gear).

Plaid? Serious? Wouldn't a regular pattern be just as bad as a solid
colour?

> >know how it goes. They're all wearing armoured bodysuits, plus
armoured REVERSIBLE vests. What would be good camouflage patterns for
them to be
>
> Why? If the pattern on thier vests differs from the one on thier
limbs, all you are doing is highlighting the target zone. Pick one
pattern and stick with it. Part of my problem with the use of
snowflauge as urban is becuase most morons dump black LBE on top of it-
just paint a target on your helmet and get it over with.

Oh. Didn't think of that. Well, I'm not a military person, so no
surprise there.

LBE?

> Now, if you them to be well dressed- selctive fire shotguns with
grenade launchers, auto carbines with underbarrel shotguns or grenade
laucnhers, a few suppressed SMGs, flash bangs, riot gas, smoke and
concussion grenades, and good sidearms. <g> (When I clear a room, I
clear a room.)

*lol*

Hey, there's a question for you. I was thinking of having a guy
carrying a military sniper rifle (you know, the sturdy ones that can
take a bit of a beating) with an underbarrel grenade launcher. I was
dissuaded from using that, but I think it's still an interesting idea.
But would it be a GOOD idea?

As for weaponry - standard are suppressed SMGs with EX Exp, APDS and
gel. One combat shotgun and two assault rifles (Ares Alpha Combat Guns)
for heavier work. Advanced milspec laser rifle for the heavy weapons
dude. Grenades of various kinds. And a mage. Then there are the
drones...:) Enough for a covert op?

> I may also have a goody you might be interested in- it allows you to
see around corners and can be used as a Smartlink.
> Kevin Dole, aka CyberRaven, aka IronRaven, aka Steel Tengu

Honto? Do tell...
==Doc'
(aka Mr. Freaky Big, Super-Dynamic Troll of Tomorrow)

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Message no. 65
From: Rand Ratinac docwagon101@*****.com
Subject: Questions of great importance (Steve, Jon, RA:S people especially)
Date: Thu, 2 Sep 1999 20:41:02 -0700 (PDT)
> RA:S,p.8
>
> "Behind the sandbags, soldiers in urban camo scurry like bugs."
> [arclight@*********.de]<><><><><><>[ICQ14322211]

Oooooo...

From the horse's mouth.

Thanks, Arclight.

==Doc'
(aka Mr. Freaky Big, Super-Dynamic Troll of Tomorrow)

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Message no. 66
From: Rand Ratinac docwagon101@*****.com
Subject: Questions of great importance (Steve, Jon, RA:S people especially)
Date: Thu, 2 Sep 1999 20:56:16 -0700 (PDT)
<BigSnip(TM)>
> As for the 2050s and '60s, your guess is as good as mine, I think.
I'd probably go for a three- or four-color pattern for the UCAS
military, but likely only for front-line units due to the budget
limitations they're supposed to have. Other units would then most
likely have vehicles painted in a single color, medium or dark green
being the most obvious choice.
> Gurth@******.nl

Wow.

Thanks for all the data, Gurth.

Would you consider a Seattle local Citymaster (transport) a front-line
vehicle or not? Despite the arcology situation, I'd say no, as the
vehicle itself is EXTREMELY unlikely to see combat. But then, with the
political situation Seattle is in, the entire Metroplex Guard (and now
the army troops) could be considered as a front-line force at all
times.

What do you guys think?
==Doc'
(aka Mr. Freaky Big, Super-Dynamic Troll of Tomorrow)

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Message no. 67
From: Rand Ratinac docwagon101@*****.com
Subject: Questions of great importance (Steve, Jon, RA:S people especially)
Date: Thu, 2 Sep 1999 20:59:15 -0700 (PDT)
> > 2. What are the colours of the UCAS army dress
> uniforms and fatigues?

> You're probably best off using modern-day colors; Starrnger did a
pretty good job of describing it. (The military is generally
conservative, and anyway most of your audience won't know the
difference between khaki battledress and a woodland BDU anyway unless
they actually see them side- by-side :)
> Gurth@******.nl

*Doc' blushes and stares at the ceiling innocently..*
==Doc'
(aka Mr. Freaky Big, Super-Dynamic Troll of Tomorrow)

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Message no. 68
From: Rand Ratinac docwagon101@*****.com
Subject: Questions of great importance (Steve, Jon, RA:S people especially)
Date: Thu, 2 Sep 1999 22:14:44 -0700 (PDT)
> > Errr...this question may be out of line, but...
> >
> > Are ruthenium polymers getting an update in M&M?
>
> Dunno, but I'd think that they'd just about have to ddress them,
since CYBERTECHNOLOGY gave us ruthenium-based dermal sheathing. Since
M&M is supposed to address all the cyberware so far introduced, I think
they'd at least have to mention the stuff.

*Doc' crosses his fingers, toes and other appendages...*

> I could, though, be completely wrong. I hope I'm ot, though, since I
like the idea of ruthie camo suits.
> (>) Texas 2-Step

You would, Predator-Boy. :)
==Doc'
(aka Mr. Freaky Big, Super-Dynamic Troll of Tomorrow)

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Message no. 69
From: Rand Ratinac docwagon101@*****.com
Subject: Questions of great importance (Steve, Jon, RA:S people especially)
Date: Thu, 2 Sep 1999 22:27:04 -0700 (PDT)
> With what I know of the Arc, I'd say going in in hard armour and
openly armed would be almost as dumb. Besides, if they are over
confident in thier toys, why not have them try it.

Because they're not stupid. :) As far as going in armed and armoured -
well, it's the only real option. If you had a chance to sneak through
the place, dressing down would be good. But that just ain't gonna work
in the arc. I don't think you could fast talk Blues or drones into
leaving you alone.

You really think they'd go in in solid armour, huh? What then? You said
light or medium security before. Would they go for fully-enclosed
helmets in order to take full advantage of ruthenium cover? Or would
they prefer to be able to use their senses without restriction? Or is
that a personal preference kind of thing?

I know a lot of this is hypothetical, but your best guess has got to be
better than mine. :)

> >So you see them as considering guarding the exterior of the arc a
combat assignment?
>
> Yep. I'd have classed Chicago as a combat assignment.

Well, RA:S seems to agree with you (if probably not for the right
reasons). :)

> >Again, which urban pattern? Urban urban or subdued
> urban?
>
> Your call. Make one up!
> Kevin Dole, aka CyberRaven, aka IronRaven, aka Steel Tengu

Wellll...the standard pattern would probably be more intimidating (as
it's usually more visible), but I think they'd realise that this really
is a dangerous place, so the more edges they can provide, the better.
Subdued urban then.

==Doc'
(aka Mr. Freaky Big, Super-Dynamic Troll of Tomorrow)

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Message no. 70
From: Rand Ratinac docwagon101@*****.com
Subject: Questions of great importance (Steve, Jon, RA:S people especially)
Date: Thu, 2 Sep 1999 22:30:30 -0700 (PDT)
> > Haven't seen that one. Can you give me some details?
>
> I think it's out on video, even in Australia, Doc'.

I know it is - but that doesn't exactly make it accessible for
everyone.

> It's extremely enjoyable; I had a marvelous time (and Catherine
Zeta-Jones is the finest export ever from Wales).

Oh, yes...

*Doc' grabs a water tank to use as a drool bucket...*

> Basically, the man responsible for killing the brother of Banderas's
character has a chat with him, telling him of a tribe who cannibalized
their enemies to gain their power. This is just before he brings out
his brother's head in a large jar.
>
> Captain Love was a despicable sort, and a great deal of fun as the
villain.

Hmmmm...

Hmmmmmmmmmmm.......

> > Btw, wasn't Antonio Banderas Zorro? I.E. the hero?
>
> Antonio was the hero, but he wasn't Zorro. Exactly. The phrasing of
Mockingbird's message was a little wonky.
> (>) Texas 2-Step

Errr...I'll take your word for that. :)
==Doc'
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Message no. 71
From: Allen Versfeld moe@*******.com
Subject: Questions of great importance (Steve, Jon, RA:S peopleespecially)
Date: Fri, 03 Sep 1999 08:50:41 +0200
> Ereskanti@***.com wrote:
>
> > Okay, mild story time here, with a question. Did *anyone* else see that show
> > on Discovery/The Learning Channel concerning "One Step Beyond" or
something.
> > It had Kate Mulgrew (Kathryn Janeway of ST:Voyager) doing the voice/narration.
> >
> > Anyway, there was something *really* cool in it that I have to admit I was
> > shocked to see. It had a setup that could build models out of
> > epoxy-polymer/resin using a laser. The laser would trace the outline in the
> > resin, and whereever the resin traced would solidy. The layer was lowered
> > down, and the laser system continued on its' merry work. In about 2-3 hours
> > I think it said they had a too-specification model of the space shuttle
> > (exterior) ready for usage in other places (like wind tunnels or advanced
> > rendering concepts). It was cool as I could imagine and wondered if this
> > kind material and setup could be done as a "shop" in SR.
> >
> > I was imagining using this as the setup for doing simpler, more impact
> > related, armors, possible bod 0/1 drone chassis, or even just
cases/"extras"
> > that a runner would need.
> >
> > Hell, with something like they were showing I was imagining someone coming up
> > with a custom-designed gun that would be fully functional (if just light
> > powered) and being "built" inside the casing to something else. Made
to form
> > gear....
> >
> > -K
>
I'vr seen a cheaper, simpler version - It processes the image into a
number of 'slices' (sort of like a CAT scan' and then uses a laser to
cut these slices out of paper. End result is a couple of hundred paper
'slices' which are then stacked on top of each other, and glued
together. While it wouldn't be as durable as a resin model, it's just
as cheap to use, and simpler to set up.
--
Allen Versfeld
moe@*******.com
Wandata

QVANTI CANICVLA ILLA IN FENESTRA
Message no. 72
From: Gurth gurth@******.nl
Subject: Questions of great importance (Steve, Jon, RA:S people especially)
Date: Fri, 3 Sep 1999 10:16:37 +0200
According to Ereskanti@***.com, at 16:30 on 2 Sep 99, the word on
the street was...

> > Gurth, do you know of any place I can get RGB values for the MERDC colours
> > and their various combinations?
>
> Can I make a suggestion? Take a *GOOD QUALITY* picture of the same (from
> whatever source you want too). Import the picture at the best quality your
> computer can support and then use the "ink dropper" tool to take a
"sample"
> of said color and place into your color-control pallette that *most* of the
> newer/better art/photo programs have these days. Select the color in
> question after that and go to the color/scheme controls from there. In many
> of those programs (I know Corel can do it for instance), the actual RGB
> values will be highlighted in the boxes at that point.
>
> -K (who gets lots of color codes that way...its' not always perfect, but it
> does help)

Sorry, Keith, not in this case. Like I said in another post, military
colors vary a lot anyway, the colors in a photo will vary with things like
exposure time and other factors, and scanned photos tend to have different
colors than the real picture... All errors that add up and lead to a
highly unreliable way to get RGB values.

--
Gurth@******.nl - http://www.xs4all.nl/~gurth/index.html
De plaag is terug...!
-> NAGEE Editor * ShadowRN GridSec * Unofficial Shadowrun Guru <-
->The Plastic Warriors Page: http://shadowrun.html.com/plasticwarriors/<-
-> The New Character Mortuary: http://www.electricferret.com/mortuary/ <-

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Incubated into the First Church of the Sqooshy Ball, 21-05-1998
Message no. 73
From: Gurth gurth@******.nl
Subject: Questions of great importance (Steve, Jon, RA:S people especially)
Date: Fri, 3 Sep 1999 10:16:37 +0200
According to abortion_engine, at 15:28 on 2 Sep 99, the word on
the street was...

> > Ferrets are small British armored cars, used in a number of variants from
> > the 1950s to at least the early '90s (I'm not sure if any are still in use
> > in the UK).
>
> Only for target practice, Gurth. Only for target practice.

That's what I figured.

> Although Richard D. James [Aphex Twin] owns one. But he left is parked at
> his parents, and doesn't drive it much. Wierdo.

There are quite a few in private hands, most of them sold off by the
British Army when they became surplus to requirements.

--
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De plaag is terug...!
-> NAGEE Editor * ShadowRN GridSec * Unofficial Shadowrun Guru <-
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Message no. 74
From: Gurth gurth@******.nl
Subject: Questions of great importance (Steve, Jon, RA:S people especially)
Date: Fri, 3 Sep 1999 10:16:37 +0200
According to Ereskanti@***.com, at 22:58 on 2 Sep 99, the word on
the street was...

> Nope. They might keep the normality, but you have to remember that at least
> one aircraft has been shot down prior to its' landing on the arc. As long as
> it was in the air, it was in UCAS airspace.

Not if it was at an altitude of less than 1,200 m. See Corporate Download,
page 11, in the right-hand column.

--
Gurth@******.nl - http://www.xs4all.nl/~gurth/index.html
De plaag is terug...!
-> NAGEE Editor * ShadowRN GridSec * Unofficial Shadowrun Guru <-
->The Plastic Warriors Page: http://shadowrun.html.com/plasticwarriors/<-
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Message no. 75
From: Gurth gurth@******.nl
Subject: Questions of great importance (Steve, Jon, RA:S people especially)
Date: Fri, 3 Sep 1999 10:16:38 +0200
According to Rand Ratinac, at 20:30 on 2 Sep 99, the word on
the street was...

> LBE?

Load Bearing Equipment. A system of belts, straps, and pouches (and these
days, vests) used to carry all the necessary combat equipment -- ammo,
water, etc.

> Hey, there's a question for you. I was thinking of having a guy
> carrying a military sniper rifle (you know, the sturdy ones that can
> take a bit of a beating) with an underbarrel grenade launcher. I was
> dissuaded from using that, but I think it's still an interesting idea.
> But would it be a GOOD idea?

I'd say it's not. Attacing a grenade launcher to a sniper rifle is a bad
idea, because it'll disturb the balance of the weapon and/or the barrel
vibrations caused by the shot. Either will affect accuracy, which is the
thing you carry a sniper rifle for in the first place... Also, the rifle
has a range that four times as far as the launcher, so what's the point?
An assault rifle with grenade launcher is a much better proposition.

> As for weaponry - standard are suppressed SMGs with EX Exp, APDS and
> gel. One combat shotgun and two assault rifles (Ares Alpha Combat Guns)
> for heavier work. Advanced milspec laser rifle for the heavy weapons
> dude. Grenades of various kinds. And a mage. Then there are the
> drones...:) Enough for a covert op?

Sounds good to me, although you might want to consider ammo
standardization. I'd got for a medium machinegun instead of a laser,
simply because the lasers in SR are pretty crap weapons -- 20 shots and
that's it. If you want to keep the laser, give this guy an SMG as well,
for when the laser's battery is empty.

Also, be sure to give everyone pistols (the _same_ type) as back-up
weapons, with a few clips (not too many, if they have to use their pistols
they're nearly fragged anyway).

--
Gurth@******.nl - http://www.xs4all.nl/~gurth/index.html
De plaag is terug...!
-> NAGEE Editor * ShadowRN GridSec * Unofficial Shadowrun Guru <-
->The Plastic Warriors Page: http://shadowrun.html.com/plasticwarriors/<-
-> The New Character Mortuary: http://www.electricferret.com/mortuary/ <-

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Incubated into the First Church of the Sqooshy Ball, 21-05-1998
Message no. 76
From: Gurth gurth@******.nl
Subject: Questions of great importance (Steve, Jon, RA:S people especially)
Date: Fri, 3 Sep 1999 10:16:38 +0200
According to Arclight, at 1:42 on 3 Sep 99, the word on
the street was...

> Clothing is not a big part of a units budget, I would tend to say.
> The "aging equipment" part should have impact on vehicles, communications
> and heavy weapons (like ATGMs, for exampel) but not individual gear.

I don't know... It's likely that the Metroplex Guard would wear the same
uniforms as the rest of the UCAS Army, but I doubt they'd be issued with
"specialized" clothing, like (IMHO) urban camos. If you're on such an
extremely tight budget, I image you save every cent you can -- if that
means not issuing several thousand sets of uniform because they're not
considered essential equipment, that's what you do.

--
Gurth@******.nl - http://www.xs4all.nl/~gurth/index.html
De plaag is terug...!
-> NAGEE Editor * ShadowRN GridSec * Unofficial Shadowrun Guru <-
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Incubated into the First Church of the Sqooshy Ball, 21-05-1998
Message no. 77
From: Gurth gurth@******.nl
Subject: Questions of great importance (Steve, Jon, RA:S people especially)
Date: Fri, 3 Sep 1999 10:16:38 +0200
According to Rand Ratinac, at 20:56 on 2 Sep 99, the word on
the street was...

> Wow.
>
> Thanks for all the data, Gurth.

Part of my other hobby... I could probably bore you a lot more with stuff
about experimental patterns, schemes used by other countries, and more,
but I'll save that for some later time :)

> Would you consider a Seattle local Citymaster (transport) a front-line
> vehicle or not? Despite the arcology situation, I'd say no, as the
> vehicle itself is EXTREMELY unlikely to see combat. But then, with the
> political situation Seattle is in, the entire Metroplex Guard (and now
> the army troops) could be considered as a front-line force at all
> times.

With the Metroplex Guard, they're combat vehicles -- this is specifically
mentioned in the chapter about Seattle in the SRII main rulebook. I see
them as equivalent to the Fuchs, Saxon, or BTR-60/70/80 APCs of today:
wheeled armored vehicles used by second-line units as an alternative to
more expensive tracked types. However, because the Citymaster appears to
be an armored truck (like a BTR-152) rather than a purpose-designed
armored vehicle (like Fuchs) I'd rate it as a somewhat ineffective combat
vehicle.

--
Gurth@******.nl - http://www.xs4all.nl/~gurth/index.html
De plaag is terug...!
-> NAGEE Editor * ShadowRN GridSec * Unofficial Shadowrun Guru <-
->The Plastic Warriors Page: http://shadowrun.html.com/plasticwarriors/<-
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Message no. 78
From: Patrick Goodman remo@***.net
Subject: Questions of great importance (Steve, Jon, RA:S people especially)
Date: Fri, 3 Sep 1999 07:08:46 -0500
> Here's an even bigger question: Does anyone actually have M&M yet?

Well, considering that it's not due out until the end of the month or the
first week or so of October, I'd be inclined to say, "Nope." <g>

--
(>) Texas 2-Step
El Paso: Never surrender. Never forget. Never forgive.
Message no. 79
From: Patrick Goodman remo@***.net
Subject: Questions of great importance (Steve, Jon, RA:S people especially)
Date: Fri, 3 Sep 1999 07:08:50 -0500
> Its sort of a passing of the torch movie as well. Antonio and Anthony
> Quinn are BOTH Zorro.

I've seen it about 20 times. I can assure you that Anthony Quinn was *not*
in the movie.

Anthony Hopkins, on the other hand, was. <g>

--
(>) Texas 2-Step
El Paso: Never surrender. Never forget. Never forgive.
Message no. 80
From: Marc Renouf renouf@********.com
Subject: Questions of great importance (Steve, Jon, RA:S people especially)
Date: Fri, 3 Sep 1999 11:06:18 -0400 (EDT)
On Thu, 2 Sep 1999, IronRaven wrote:

> Marc, you've said this before, and you didn't answer my question
> the last time you said it:
> If hydrostatics don't work, then how come things like the ACR dart loads
> devloped by AAI and Steyr, and the 4.7 mm round for the G11, perform as
> well if not better in test against various test media (including a test on
> Strassberg goats conducted after the close of the tests, in France) as the
> standard 62-gr 5.56 NATO? The G11 rounds are no faster than 5.56, are
> smaller, and weigh less. The flechette loads aren't faster, but they are
> super light and they have almost no frontal area in compairison to other
> rounds.

If they're not going any faster, they aren't any more likely to
cause "hydrostatic shock," *especially* if they have a smaller frontal
area. At a guess, I'd say that a smaller, thinner round is more likely to
be diverted off bone or hard tissue, increasing the chance of creating a
longer wound-channel than a heavy, fast bullet that goes straight on
through. It is of note that the 5.56 Nato is more likely to carom off
bone than the heavier (but slower) 7.62x39. Momentum in action.
As for flechettes, certain designs of flechette actually *bend*
when they impact, and make vicious wound channels. The longer and
skinnier a projectile is, the more likely it is to deform laterally
(rather than "mushrooming" like a typical round). This may account for
the AAI round's success in trials.

[on the topic of administering gall-stone shock]

> You also didn't mention that women who are pregnant aren't given that
> treatment, according to the folks I talked to (a couple RNs and
> an MD- I've come to know my local ED staff pretty well over the years).

Women who are pregnant are also discouraged from spending time
around cats and using detergents. People are paranoid where fetuses are
concerned, so I can't really speculate as to whether it's not done because
it poses a danger to the fetus or because it *might* pose a danger to the
fetus.
I'm not saying it would have *no* effect, I'm just saying that the
effects are largely unknown. Further, as you yourself have pointed out,
shocking gall-stones is a fairly poor analog to getting shot.

> I've never ahd the get up with .223s, but I have
> had them get up with .30-30s and 7.62x39 loads that produce the same amount
> of force (mass x accelleration) acrss the total frontal area with
> low-expansion bullets. If it isn't hydrostatic shock (which you have
> claimed), or the effects of a stretch cavity (which I recall you also
> stating), and in all cases they exited the main body, so it sure ain't
> pentration, what the heck was it?

Kinetic energy, pure and simple. 7.63x39 isn't really all that
fast a round. 5.56 NATO is blazingly fast in comparison. Don't think of
force (m*a), think of energy (m*v^2). It's the v-squared term that you
have to watch out for. A bullet travelling twice as fast actually has
*four times* the energy given an identical weight.
And I've never shot anything with a .30-30 and had it get up.

Marc
Message no. 81
From: Paul J. Adam Paul@********.demon.co.uk
Subject: Questions of great importance (Steve, Jon, RA:S people especially)
Date: Fri, 3 Sep 1999 17:49:25 +0100
In article <19990903033042.10845.rocketmail@******.mail.yahoo.com>,
Rand Ratinac <docwagon101@*****.com> writes
>Plaid? Serious?

Yes, serious - the US "night desert" pattern he means was a sort of dark-
green patterned with black, and it looked rather like graph paper :)

Apparently, effective against night vision devices.

>LBE?

Load Bearing Equipment. The harness and pouches to hold your
ammunition, water, NBC gear, et cetera.

>Hey, there's a question for you. I was thinking of having a guy
>carrying a military sniper rifle (you know, the sturdy ones that can
>take a bit of a beating) with an underbarrel grenade launcher. I was
>dissuaded from using that, but I think it's still an interesting idea.
>But would it be a GOOD idea?

Not really, IMHO. I can't see many snipers being keen on the idea.

>As for weaponry - standard are suppressed SMGs with EX Exp,

Is it just me that finds this ironic? :) SMG goes "clicketyclicketyclick",
bullets go "BANGBANGBANG!" on impact...


--
Paul J. Adam
Message no. 82
From: Paul J. Adam Paul@********.demon.co.uk
Subject: Questions of great importance (Steve, Jon, RA:S people especially)
Date: Fri, 3 Sep 1999 17:53:13 +0100
In article <19990902052325.24597.rocketmail@******.mail.yahoo.com>,
Rand Ratinac <docwagon101@*****.com> writes
>Yeah, but that doesn't help me. Why would spec forces or SEALs wear
>black? They don't need intimidation - they need concealment.

In the field, they don't. The SAS wear exactly the same DPM (Disruptive
Pattern Material) camouflage we do: it's only for counter-terrorist work
that you see them in the black gear.

(DAMHIKIJK)
--
Paul J. Adam
Message no. 83
From: Paul J. Adam Paul@********.demon.co.uk
Subject: Questions of great importance (Steve, Jon, RA:S people especially)
Date: Fri, 3 Sep 1999 18:02:11 +0100
In article <c396714d.24ffcd1d@***.com>, Ereskanti@***.com writes
>Interesting, we just ran across a small convoy of about 4-5 vehicles in a
>MUCH darker color, almost black-level green. Really different IMO.

That green is also used on most helicopters now (cue sightings of "black
helicopters"). The paint's formulated to minimise the infrared signature of
whatever it's applied to.


--
Paul J. Adam
Message no. 84
From: Paul J. Adam Paul@********.demon.co.uk
Subject: Questions of great importance (Steve, Jon, RA:S people especially)
Date: Fri, 3 Sep 1999 17:51:06 +0100
In article <19990902035849.6864.rocketmail@******.mail.yahoo.com>,
Rand Ratinac <docwagon101@*****.com> writes
>Query: "OD"?

Olive Drab.

--
Paul J. Adam
Message no. 85
From: Paul J. Adam Paul@********.demon.co.uk
Subject: Questions of great importance (Steve, Jon, RA:S people especially)
Date: Fri, 3 Sep 1999 18:10:10 +0100
In article <19990903025203.24649.rocketmail@******.mail.yahoo.com>,
Rand Ratinac <docwagon101@*****.com> writes
>AE, is this British army cammos, or what? (I get the feeling you aren't
>in America, but apart from that, well...)

British Army has three issue patterns. DPM, which is a four-colour
disruptive pattern: tropical, which is similar but the shades seem brighter
(tropical fatigues are lighter and contain more polyester); and desert,
which is a two-colour disruptive pattern in pale sand and light brown.

My experience suggests that ordinary DPM is a very serviceable camouflage
for urban warfare: stands out badly in concrete, excellent in gardens, not
bad against brickwork, and breaks up the shape nicely (especially at
night). A few people in my unit liked desert fatigues for urban work in
daylight, but I thought it made them easier to spot in shadow.

--
Paul J. Adam
Message no. 86
From: Paul J. Adam Paul@********.demon.co.uk
Subject: Questions of great importance (Steve, Jon, RA:S people especially)
Date: Fri, 3 Sep 1999 21:33:04 +0100
In article <19990903030557.16258.rocketmail@******.mail.yahoo.com>,
Rand Ratinac <docwagon101@*****.com> writes
>Given the preponderance of light body armour in SR, do you guys think
>standard army uniforms are now armoured? I can easily see fatigues as
>being of the "armoured cammo bodysuit" class from SR3 and Fields of
>Fire, but what about day uniforms and dress uniforms? Armoured
>clothing, or just standard clothes?

I'd say it was entirely likely that combat fatigues came with pockets for
armour inserts, just like my motorcycle gear. Unlikely that working dress
has such, let alone dress uniforms, IMHO.


--
Paul J. Adam
Message no. 87
From: Paul J. Adam Paul@********.demon.co.uk
Subject: Questions of great importance (Steve, Jon, RA:S people especially)
Date: Fri, 3 Sep 1999 21:38:12 +0100
In article <199909030816.KAA10775@*****.xs4all.nl>, Gurth
<gurth@******.nl> writes
>According to Ereskanti@***.com, at 22:58 on 2 Sep 99, the word on
>the street was...
>
>> Nope. They might keep the normality, but you have to remember that at least
>> one aircraft has been shot down prior to its' landing on the arc. As long as
>> it was in the air, it was in UCAS airspace.
>
>Not if it was at an altitude of less than 1,200 m. See Corporate Download,
>page 11, in the right-hand column.

Where did it come down? Renraku flinging burning aircraft wreckage into
the UCAS is actionable :)

--
Paul J. Adam
Message no. 88
From: Paul J. Adam Paul@********.demon.co.uk
Subject: Questions of great importance (Steve, Jon, RA:S people especially)
Date: Fri, 3 Sep 1999 21:30:58 +0100
In article <3.0.3.32.19990902164211.00a6e250@***.softhome.net>,
IronRaven <cyberraven@********.net> writes
> Marc, you've said this before, and you didn't answer my question the last
>time you said it:
> If hydrostatics don't work, then how come things like the ACR dart loads
>devloped by AAI and Steyr, and the 4.7 mm round for the G11, perform as
>well if not better in test against various test media (including a test on
>Strassberg goats conducted after the close of the tests, in France) as the
>standard 62-gr 5.56 NATO?



>The G11 rounds are no faster than 5.56, are
>smaller, and weigh less.

They also have a greater aspect ratio, and there's a synergistic effect
from the three-round burst of multiple rounds impacting in the same
area.

>The flechette loads aren't faster, but they are
>super light and they have almost no frontal area in compairison to other
>rounds.

...which is why they produce minimal wounding and are relatively
ineffective.

> Now, I know about the gall stone treatment. That simple claim does not
>take into acount differences between mineral deposits in the body, live
>hard tissue and live soft tissue, in the areas of natural resonance,
>elasticity, and the like.

Shock waves are shock waves. They should, if "hydrostatic shock" is a
massive wounding mechanism, cause enormous tissue damage...

>It leaves out the fact that the energy
>transfeered is less than that of modern rilfe round,

Each vlithotriptor pulse is more energetic than the shockwave produced by
a 7.62mm NATO round.

>and doesn't (accord to
>the folks I've talked to) start at a maximum level, but insteads builds
>from zero, while rifle rounds are rather sudden.

Shock waves don't "build" - that's why they're shockwaves...

>The shock waves are
>focused on a relatively focused area, while being shot is more of a full
>body experince.

Compare being punched to being stabbed. A knife delivers the same
energy to a much smaller area and does more damage as a result...

>You also didn't mention that women who are pregnant aren't
>given that treatment, according to the folks I talked to (a couple RNs and
>an MD- I've come to know my local ED staff pretty well over the years).

Pregnant women aren't given abdominal X-rays either, but that doesn't
mean X-rays will kill you instantly, or even that week.

> I'm not an expert in physiology, I only have enough knowledge for what I
>do and to know where to stick a knife for the best effect. I don't know a
>lot of physics, or how shockwaves effect soft tissue. What I do know is
>that I've never have shot critters of the same species and roughly the same
>size, in the same area. I've never ahd the get up with .223s, but I have
>had them get up with .30-30s and 7.62x39 loads that produce the same amount
>of force (mass x accelleration) acrss the total frontal area with
>low-expansion bullets. If it isn't hydrostatic shock (which you have
>claimed), or the effects of a stretch cavity (which I recall you also
>stating), and in all cases they exited the main body, so it sure ain't
>pentration, what the heck was it?

What's the twist in your .223 barrel, and what ammo are you using? You're
most likely seeing the effect of early yaw. 5.56 yaws very early in tissue,
while 7.62 x 39 is notably overstabilised. Don't know .30-.30 too well, but
isn't it a roundnose rather than a spitzer bullet? In which case, again you're
getting no yaw.


--
Paul J. Adam
Message no. 89
From: Paul J. Adam Paul@********.demon.co.uk
Subject: Questions of great importance (Steve, Jon, RA:S people especially)
Date: Fri, 3 Sep 1999 21:40:48 +0100
In article <19990902060112.18993.rocketmail@******.mail.yahoo.com>,
Rand Ratinac <docwagon101@*****.com> writes
>Same thing I asked Kevin. UCAS spec forces team going into the Renraku
>Arcology. Armoured bodysuits, reversible armoured vests. The arc is
>well-lit in places, dark in others. What's the best set of cammos for a
>situation like that?

For indoor urban combat, in my experience (Copehill Down, Imber,
Whinney Hill, Sennybridge) camouflage is all but irrelevant, so probably
plain woodland camo or whatever the existing UCAS "standard" pattern is
in 2060.

--
Paul J. Adam
Message no. 90
From: runnerpaul@*****.com runnerpaul@*****.com
Subject: Questions of great importance (Steve, Jon, RA:S people especially)
Date: Fri, 3 Sep 1999 20:35:26 -0400 (EDT)
-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----

At 09:06 AM 9/3/99 -0400, IronRaven wrote:
:Enclosed, with sensors inthe helmet (sight, eco location, radar,
:hearing, IFF, et al) tied into a datajack, similiar to the way a
:rigger uses vehicel sensors. Not sure of the mechanics, though.

Simple enough, take the electronics guts from a Body 0 electric
drone, including the Sensor 0 package. Use the rules on p.27 of R2
for adding components of higher rating Sensor packages into lower
rated ones. Add in a hitcher jack and control deck circuitry, to
allow the user to control and receive the sensor feeds by datajack,
plus any other toys you'd like to put in, like Clearsight Autosofts
or other add-ons. Build a helmet around it, and there you go.

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--
-- Paul Gettle, #186 of 1000 (RunnerPaul@*****.com)
PGP Fingerprint, Key ID:0x48F3AACD (RSA 1024, created 98/06/26)
C260 94B3 6722 6A25 63F8 0690 9EA2 3344

---------------------------------------------------
Get free personalized email at http://www.iname.com
Message no. 91
From: Arclight arclight@*********.de
Subject: Questions of great importance (Steve, Jon, RA:S people especially)
Date: Sat, 4 Sep 1999 03:07:48 +0200
And finally, Paul J. Adam expressed himself by writing:

> >As for weaponry - standard are suppressed SMGs with EX Exp,
>
> Is it just me that finds this ironic? :) SMG goes
> "clicketyclicketyclick",
> bullets go "BANGBANGBANG!" on impact...

They would notice the dead one anyway, and the suppressor
might hinder them at locating the shooter

--
[arclight@*********.de]<><><><><><>[ICQ14322211]
Vorsicht Ritchie, ein Hochhäus!! - Wer?
<><><><[http://www.datahaven.de/arclight]><><><>;
Message no. 92
From: Patrick Goodman remo@***.net
Subject: Questions of great importance (Steve, Jon, RA:S people especially)
Date: Fri, 3 Sep 1999 20:06:46 -0500
> From a technical point of view, unless you are in an area with LOTS of
> EM static in the air (ie, standing under a radio transmitter, a power
> plant, taking your socks out of the dryer), the pattern should stay the
> same.

Unless, of course, the system depends on a current being applied, in which
case I think it would be just like a typical computer monitor when *it's*
turned off, and go neutral gray. Which is what *I* see as more likely.

--
(>) Texas 2-Step
El Paso: Never surrender. Never forget. Never forgive.
Message no. 93
From: Gurth gurth@******.nl
Subject: Questions of great importance (Steve, Jon, RA:S people especially)
Date: Sat, 4 Sep 1999 11:44:15 +0200
According to Paul J. Adam, at 17:49 on 3 Sep 99, the word on
the street was...

> Yes, serious - the US "night desert" pattern he means was a sort of dark-
> green patterned with black, and it looked rather like graph paper :)

How many times do I have to say it's dark green on OD, and has irregular
blobs in the pattern as well as the 3 mm grid? :)

--
Gurth@******.nl - http://www.xs4all.nl/~gurth/index.html
De plaag is terug...!
-> NAGEE Editor * ShadowRN GridSec * Unofficial Shadowrun Guru <-
->The Plastic Warriors Page: http://shadowrun.html.com/plasticwarriors/<-
-> The New Character Mortuary: http://www.electricferret.com/mortuary/ <-

GC3.1: GAT/! d-(dpu) s:- !a>? C+(++)@ U P L E? W(++) N o? K- w+ O V? PS+
PE Y PGP- t(+) 5++ X++ R+++>$ tv+(++) b++@ DI? D+ G(++) e h! !r(---) y?
Incubated into the First Church of the Sqooshy Ball, 21-05-1998
Message no. 94
From: Paul J. Adam Paul@********.demon.co.uk
Subject: Questions of great importance (Steve, Jon, RA:S people especially)
Date: Sat, 4 Sep 1999 13:26:53 +0100
In article <000001bef671$e7952080$010aa8c0@********>, Arclight
<arclight@*********.de> writes
>And finally, Paul J. Adam expressed himself by writing:
>> Is it just me that finds this ironic? :) SMG goes
>> "clicketyclicketyclick",
>> bullets go "BANGBANGBANG!" on impact...
>
>They would notice the dead one anyway, and the suppressor
>might hinder them at locating the shooter

Indoors, it won't matter worth a damn. Leave the suppressors off : they're
only good for a few hundred rounds anyway and it wouldn't take much of a
screwup for the team to find themselves expending a _lot_ more ammo
than that...

If stealth becomes an issue, give them detachable suppressors to fit as
needed instead.

--
Paul J. Adam
Message no. 95
From: Thomas thomas041179@***.de
Subject: Questions of great importance (Steve, Jon, RA:S people especially)
Date: Sat, 4 Sep 1999 17:01:23 +0200
-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----
Hash: SHA1

<000001bef671$e7952080$010aa8c0@********>, Arclight
> <arclight@*********.de> writes
> >And finally, Paul J. Adam expressed himself by writing:
> >> Is it just me that finds this ironic? :) SMG goes
> >> "clicketyclicketyclick",
> >> bullets go "BANGBANGBANG!" on impact...
> >
> >They would notice the dead one anyway, and the suppressor
> >might hinder them at locating the shooter
>
> Indoors, it won't matter worth a damn. Leave the suppressors off :
they're
> only good for a few hundred rounds anyway

In SR you can use it a life long...
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Message no. 96
From: Arclight arclight@*********.de
Subject: Questions of great importance (Steve, Jon, RA:S people especially)
Date: Sat, 4 Sep 1999 17:24:27 +0200
And finally, Thomas expressed himself by writing:

> > >They would notice the dead one anyway, and the suppressor
> > >might hinder them at locating the shooter
> >
> > Indoors, it won't matter worth a damn. Leave the suppressors off :
> they're
> > only good for a few hundred rounds anyway
>
> In SR you can use it a life long...

That's wrong:

SR3, p.281: "Sound Suppress[o]rs must be replaced every
300 rounds of burst or autofire."

What you mean is a silencer...

--
[arclight@*********.de]<><><><><><>[ICQ14322211]
Vorsicht Ritchie, ein Hochhäus!! - Wer?
<><><><[http://www.datahaven.de/arclight]><><><>;
Message no. 97
From: Sebastian Wiers m0ng005e@*********.com
Subject: Questions of great importance (Steve, Jon, RA:S people especially)
Date: Sat, 4 Sep 1999 00:09:38 -0700
> > > HM - where'd this come from (out of curiousity)? And what is the
> "urban cammo" pattern - if there is one?

> Don't suppose anyone knows where I could find a pic of this on the net?

A company called "U.S. Cavalry sends you there catologs if you fit the
right demographic. They sell U.S. military uniforms (I think you get a few
free ones on induction, and have to buy the rest.) They have a website- I
think its uscav.com. It should have examples of many cammo styles- all the
U.S. ones and whatever used forign stuff they happen to be seeling (I
rather like the Swiss "Alpineflage"- bright colored yet outline breaking,
very movement-confusing- perfect as urban fasion, if not as urban cammo.)

Mongoose
Message no. 98
From: Gurth gurth@******.nl
Subject: Questions of great importance (Steve, Jon, RA:S people especially)
Date: Sat, 4 Sep 1999 20:18:00 +0200
According to Ereskanti@***.com, at 12:56 on 4 Sep 99, the word on
the street was...

> > That green is also used on most helicopters now (cue sightings of "black
> > helicopters"). The paint's formulated to minimise the infrared signature
of
> > whatever it's applied to.
>
> Paul, would this qualify as at least *part* of the RAM coating technology
> that is being mimicked in the Rigger-2 then?

I'm not Paul, but I don't think this would work against radar, or even
give any noticable effects under Shadowrun rules; if you really want to
use it for more than just flavor, I'd say it gives the vehicle a +1
Signature modifier against thermographic sensors only (and since vehicle
sensors are a lot more than just thermal, the bonus wouldn't work against
them).

--
Gurth@******.nl - http://www.xs4all.nl/~gurth/index.html
De plaag is terug...!
-> NAGEE Editor * ShadowRN GridSec * Unofficial Shadowrun Guru <-
->The Plastic Warriors Page: http://shadowrun.html.com/plasticwarriors/<-
-> The New Character Mortuary: http://www.electricferret.com/mortuary/ <-

GC3.1: GAT/! d-(dpu) s:- !a>? C+(++)@ U P L E? W(++) N o? K- w+ O V? PS+
PE Y PGP- t(+) 5++ X++ R+++>$ tv+(++) b++@ DI? D+ G(++) e h! !r(---) y?
Incubated into the First Church of the Sqooshy Ball, 21-05-1998
Message no. 99
From: Smilin' Assassin SmilinAssassin@********.demon.co.uk
Subject: Questions of great importance (Steve, Jon, RA:S people especially)
Date: Sat, 4 Sep 1999 19:42:46 +0100
That long ago! Sheesh - time flies ....

I remember watching it live on the daily news - scared the sh*t out of me
then!! (Mind you, I WAS only 14 at the time - ACK!!)

Cammo answer makes sense. Thanx.

Smilin' Assassin

"So, maybe the day-glo pink cammo isn't a good idea - but wouldn't you be
scared if a giant, pink bunny holding pointing an SMG stormed YOUR house???"

> -----Original Message-----
> From: shadowrn-admin@*********.org
> [mailto:shadowrn-admin@*********.org]On Behalf Of Gurth
> Sent: 02 September 1999 20:37
> To: shadowrn@*********.org
> Subject: RE: Questions of great importance (Steve, Jon, RA:S people
> especially)
>
>
> According to Smilin' Assassin, at 12:16 on 2 Sep 99, the word on
> the street was...
>
> > As for black cammo - dunno myself, but I assume that its less
> "reflective".
> > Special forces seem to favour it (look at the SAS/Libyan
> Embassy thing 10ish
> > years back)
>
> 20 years -- Operation Nimrod was in 1980. If you ever go to the Imperial
> War Museum in London, they have a really good display about that
> operation
> (or at least they did when I was last there, about three years ago).
>
> The black "camo" used in the Iranian embassy siege (and made popular by
> the SAS there and then, BTW), is not really camouflage but intended to
> intimidate: first they blow up the door or window, then they
> throw in some
> flashbangs, and next, anyone still in the room and able to think sees
> completely black troopers coming in. Tell me you wouldn't be scared :)
>
> --
> Gurth@******.nl - http://www.xs4all.nl/~gurth/index.html
> De plaag is terug...!
> -> NAGEE Editor * ShadowRN GridSec * Unofficial Shadowrun Guru <-
> ->The Plastic Warriors Page: http://shadowrun.html.com/plasticwarriors/<-
> -> The New Character Mortuary: http://www.electricferret.com/mortuary/ <-
>
> GC3.1: GAT/! d-(dpu) s:- !a>? C+(++)@ U P L E? W(++) N o? K- w+ O V? PS+
> PE Y PGP- t(+) 5++ X++ R+++>$ tv+(++) b++@ DI? D+ G(++) e h! !r(---) y?
> Incubated into the First Church of the Sqooshy Ball, 21-05-1998
>
Message no. 100
From: Gurth gurth@******.nl
Subject: Questions of great importance (Steve, Jon, RA:S people especially)
Date: Sun, 5 Sep 1999 10:32:02 +0200
According to Ereskanti@***.com, at 21:28 on 4 Sep 99, the word on
the street was...

> Which btw Gurth, is saying "Yes" in response to my question. I said *part*

> of the idea behind RAM, not all of it. Because of SR's abstraction of the
> rules, RAM assists in all parts of the vehicle's signature, not just a small
> part of it.

Well, okay, yeah :) Not sure how SR's RAM works (IRL it feels very much
like rubber anti-slip matting), but it could very well be painted with IR-
camouflage paints to enhance its performance. That would make it highly
noticable on the street, though -- put the stuff on your car, and you'll
stand out like a sore thumb.

--
Gurth@******.nl - http://www.xs4all.nl/~gurth/index.html
De plaag is terug...!
-> NAGEE Editor * ShadowRN GridSec * Unofficial Shadowrun Guru <-
->The Plastic Warriors Page: http://shadowrun.html.com/plasticwarriors/<-
-> The New Character Mortuary: http://www.electricferret.com/mortuary/ <-

GC3.1: GAT/! d-(dpu) s:- !a>? C+(++)@ U P L E? W(++) N o? K- w+ O V? PS+
PE Y PGP- t(+) 5++ X++ R+++>$ tv+(++) b++@ DI? D+ G(++) e h! !r(---) y?
Incubated into the First Church of the Sqooshy Ball, 21-05-1998
Message no. 101
From: Arclight arclight@*********.de
Subject: Questions of great importance (Steve, Jon, RA:S people especially)
Date: Sun, 5 Sep 1999 13:09:03 +0200
And finally, Mongoose expressed himself by writing:

> U.S. ones and whatever used forign stuff they happen to be seeling (I
> rather like the Swiss "Alpineflage"- bright colored yet outline breaking,
> very movement-confusing- perfect as urban fasion, if not as urban cammo.)

During holidays I saw some swedish soldiers... strange pattern,
but a lot more "civil" looking than for exampel US woodland ones.
Too bad I never saw a surplus store there, I would've bought a jacket
outright...

--
[arclight@*********.de]<><><><><><>[ICQ14322211]
Vorsicht Ritchie, ein Hochhäus!! - Wer?
<><><><[http://www.datahaven.de/arclight]><><><>;
Message no. 102
From: GreyWolf sparrow@***.net.au
Subject: Questions of great importance (Steve, Jon, RA:S people especially)
Date: Thu, 02 Sep 1999 17:33:52 +1000
Rand Ratinac wrote:

> People, these are some important questions for a couple of stories I'm
> working on and I need CANON answers.
>
> 1. What constructions materials are used in the Shadowrun era? Have
> there been any great advances in this direction?
>
> 2. What are the colours of the UCAS army dress uniforms and fatigues?
>
> This one doesn't actually require a canon answer - just a knowledgeable
> one.
>
> 3. Are there any cultures with legends of "mystic rituals" or the like
> that a) involve human sacrifice and b) grant whoever conducts the
> sacrifice great power?

Aztec, Anglo-Celtic (apparently), Some Indian areas, Vampires/Transylvania,
Germany- Ancient Black Magic Rites (norse), Chinese Magicians.. I can think
of a lot of them.. though im not sure how many a re fiction and how many
are real stories.. (ie: not modern fictional stuff but real legend).

GreyWolf



--
"I don't know, Scotty. Maybe it's just the _idea_ of an inflatable
rubber starship that bothers me."
Message no. 103
From: GreyWolf sparrow@***.net.au
Subject: Questions of great importance (Steve, Jon, RA:S people especially)
Date: Thu, 02 Sep 1999 17:31:45 +1000
> And another one. :) Would the UCAS troops guarding the Renraku Arcology
> be considered under combat conditions (and thus be wearing urban
> cammo), or standard conditions (with woodland cammo fatigues)?

Its combat conditions as i understand RA:S. that would mean urban gear.
They dont want to make it too easy for Deus to take potshots at them.

GreyWolf


--
"I don't know, Scotty. Maybe it's just the _idea_ of an inflatable
rubber starship that bothers me."
Message no. 104
From: abortion_engine abortion_engine@*******.com
Subject: Questions of great importance (Steve, Jon, RA:S people especially)
Date: Sun, 5 Sep 1999 22:20:24 -0400
> > > fighting in urban areas per se. Special forces probobly do, and I
> believe their's are Tiger stripes of several shades of grey.
> > >
> > All my Urban Camo is near-black, near white, and vertical patterns of
> greys. I've seen other stuff, but this stuff breaks up sight lines
> pretty well. [Doesn't help a bit under a street light, in case you were
> wondering.] Again, camo is only part of the answer to concealment.
> >
> > Don't forget, most of the troops have no reason to hide. [As I think
> a few people have mentioned.]
>
> My guys do. :)
>
> AE, is this British army cammos, or what? (I get the feeling you aren't
> in America, but apart from that, well...)

Yeah, my guys, too, unless you're doing something, like the Arc, where the
whole point is to be seen, to show deterrance.

No, my Urban isn't even issue. I just meant the Urban I own. I've never had
issue Urban, but it's the same pattern as what I own, basically. Mine
doesn't have rank flash or namestrip, but the pattern's about right.

British? Hmm. I must talk funny. Nope.
Message no. 105
From: Rand Ratinac docwagon101@*****.com
Subject: Questions of great importance (Steve, Jon, RA:S people especially)
Date: Mon, 6 Sep 1999 22:49:49 -0700 (PDT)
> >Hey, there's a question for you. I was thinking of having a guy
carrying a military sniper rifle (you know, the sturdy ones that can
take a bit of a beating) with an underbarrel grenade launcher. I was
dissuaded from using that, but I think it's still an interesting idea.
But would it be a GOOD idea?
>
> Not really, IMHO. I can't see many snipers being keen on the idea.

Why not?

> >As for weaponry - standard are suppressed SMGs with EX Exp,
>
> Is it just me that finds this ironic? :) SMG goes
"clicketyclicketyclick", bullets go "BANGBANGBANG!" on impact...
> Paul J. Adam

*lol* Well, yes - but they wouldn't use that when they were trying to
be quiet. :)

*Doc' starts having a conversation with Paul's butt as it's obviously
the most intelligent portion of him...*
==Doc'
(aka Mr. Freaky Big, Super-Dynamic Troll of Tomorrow)

.sig Sauer
__________________________________________________
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Message no. 106
From: Ignacio De Lucas morrisjila@*******.com
Subject: Questions of great importance (Steve, Jon, RA:S people especially)
Date: Tue, 07 Sep 1999 05:56:03 GMT
> > >Hey, there's a question for you. I was thinking of having a guy
>carrying a military sniper rifle (you know, the sturdy ones that can
>take a bit of a beating) with an underbarrel grenade launcher. I was
>dissuaded from using that, but I think it's still an interesting idea.
>But would it be a GOOD idea?

I dont think so, first of all where would he get it, how would he carry it
and finally how would he hide it.
If an investigator conects two murders with the same gun, and specially one
like that you would become a prety looked guy, and rnasoms on your head
would pup up, then again, if you want a sniper why would you put a granada
louncher to it. Snipers are for quiet jobs.

Finally if you are not strictly an assasin i do not see the point to it,
there are better ways of killing a man and not drawing much atention

ATTE el MORRIS

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Message no. 107
From: Rand Ratinac docwagon101@*****.com
Subject: Questions of great importance (Steve, Jon, RA:S people especially)
Date: Mon, 6 Sep 1999 23:57:27 -0700 (PDT)
> >dissuaded from using that, but I think it's still an interesting
idea. But would it be a GOOD idea?
>
> I would thinkit wouldi nterfeer with anything like a free-floating
barrel, but since SR doesn't get that picky, all I can say is-
ewwww......
> Thanks for the idea. <Raven reacehs over, pulls the backup Colt
M-30 off of the rack and starts looking to see if he has a spare
grenade grenade laucnher and link anywhere, thinking he saw one next to
the gyromounts>

*lol*

Now I'm guessing that a free-floating barrel is what's used with rifles
that break down. But that could be a very bad guess. If it is, though,
that wouldn't cover military rifles that AREN'T designed to be broken
down and ARE designed to be banged around a bit (like the Walther in
SR). AND that would mean the GL wouldn't interfere with it much. Is
that the case?

> >As for weaponry - standard are suppressed SMGs with
> EX Exp, APDS and
>
> Explosive ammo go BANG. Defeats the purpose of suppressors.

Me know. Drone killers and emergency ammo. (Laser-boy will take down
the drones if he can. If he can't it's likely screwed enough that it
doesn't matter who hears them.)
==Doc'
(aka Mr. Freaky Big, Super-Dynamic Troll of Tomorrow)

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Message no. 108
From: Rand Ratinac docwagon101@*****.com
Subject: Questions of great importance (Steve, Jon, RA:S people especially)
Date: Tue, 7 Sep 1999 00:54:26 -0700 (PDT)
> I'd say it's not. Attacing a grenade launcher to a sniper rifle is a
bad idea, because it'll disturb the balance of the weapon and/or the
barrel vibrations caused by the shot. Either will affect accuracy,
which is the thing you carry a sniper rifle for in the first place...
Also, the rifle has a range that four times as far as the launcher, so
what's the point? An assault rifle with grenade launcher is a much
better proposition.

It's called protection. Could you imagine sneaking up on a sniper and
then having him let loose a barrage of minigrenades at you? :)

Then I flash back to "Clear and Present Danger". The sniper in that
carried his sniper rifle AND an assault rifle like the other troopies.
That probably makes more sense, I guess.

*sigh*

It's SUCH a cool idea, though. :)

> > As for weaponry - standard are suppressed SMGs with EX Exp, APDS
and gel. One combat shotgun and two assault rifles (Ares Alpha Combat
Guns) for heavier work. Advanced milspec laser rifle for the heavy
weapons dude. Grenades of various kinds. And a mage. Then there are the
drones...:) Enough for a covert op?
>
> Sounds good to me, although you might want to consider ammo
standardization.

Ummm...I have, AFAIK. They all have the same kind of SMGs (and pistols
- forgot to mention those). The shotgun and laser rifle are the only
"one off" weapons.

> I'd got for a medium machinegun instead of a laser, simply because
the lasers in SR are pretty crap weapons -- 20 shots and that's it. If
you want to keep the laser, give this guy an SMG as well, for when the
laser's battery is empty.

Ahhh...but I said an advanced milspec laser. I'm not going to give it
stats, but think of a man-portable version of the Firelance vehicle
laser - with more battery capacity. 15S base damage AND anti-vehicular.

And yes, he has an SMG. :) He's only going to pull out the laser
against drones - or if everything goes to crap.

> Also, be sure to give everyone pistols (the _same_ type) as back-up
weapons, with a few clips (not too many, if they have to use their
pistols they're nearly fragged anyway).
> Gurth@******.nl

Again, already done, but I did forget to mention that. Thanks.
==Doc'
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Message no. 109
From: Gurth gurth@******.nl
Subject: Questions of great importance (Steve, Jon, RA:S people especially)
Date: Tue, 7 Sep 1999 12:05:48 +0200
According to Rand Ratinac, at 0:54 on 7 Sep 99, the word on
the street was...

> It's called protection. Could you imagine sneaking up on a sniper and
> then having him let loose a barrage of minigrenades at you? :)

Sneaking up on a sniper? That assumes you can pinpoint the sniper's
location (in which case the sniper hasn't done his or her job well enough)
and that the sniper doesn't see you coming (unlikely, as observation is
about as important in sniper training as accuracy with a rifle). If you
try to approach a sniper and the sniper has time to set up a shot, I
wouldn't rate your survival chances very highly...

> Then I flash back to "Clear and Present Danger". The sniper in that
> carried his sniper rifle AND an assault rifle like the other troopies.
> That probably makes more sense, I guess.
>
> *sigh*
>
> It's SUCH a cool idea, though. :)

So put the grenade launcher on the assault rifle. You could also make the
sniper an ork, so that the weight won't be much of a bother, either. Or
equip the spotter with the assault rifle and grenade launcher...

> Ummm...I have, AFAIK. They all have the same kind of SMGs (and pistols
> - forgot to mention those). The shotgun and laser rifle are the only
> "one off" weapons.

Good, just making sure :) Too many shadowrunner teams carry all kinds of
different weapons, with the effect that when one person runs out of ammo,
the others can't share theirs...

> > I'd got for a medium machinegun instead of a laser, simply because
> > the lasers in SR are pretty crap weapons -- 20 shots and that's it. If
> > you want to keep the laser, give this guy an SMG as well, for when the
> > laser's battery is empty.
>
> Ahhh...but I said an advanced milspec laser. I'm not going to give it
> stats, but think of a man-portable version of the Firelance vehicle
> laser - with more battery capacity. 15S base damage AND anti-vehicular.

Okay, but what about the number of shots? That's my main objection to a
laser as a support weapon -- if the common types of laser hold only 20
shots, the best ones available might hold maybe 50 or so and still be
portable. For the same bulk and weight, you could have hundreds of rounds
for a machinegun.

> > Also, be sure to give everyone pistols (the _same_ type) as back-up
> > weapons, with a few clips (not too many, if they have to use their
> > pistols they're nearly fragged anyway).
>
> Again, already done, but I did forget to mention that. Thanks.

I don't remember if you mentioned this or not, but a large load of
grenades is also a necessity if they're going into a place like the
Renraku Arcology. Roomclearing gets very hard without them.

--
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-> NAGEE Editor * ShadowRN GridSec * Unofficial Shadowrun Guru <-
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Message no. 110
From: Gurth gurth@******.nl
Subject: Questions of great importance (Steve, Jon, RA:S people especially)
Date: Tue, 7 Sep 1999 12:05:49 +0200
According to Rand Ratinac, at 23:57 on 6 Sep 99, the word on
the street was...

> Now I'm guessing that a free-floating barrel is what's used with rifles
> that break down. But that could be a very bad guess.

It's a very bad guess :) A free-floating barrel is one that is only fixed
to the rest of the rifle at the breech (rear) end. For the rest of its
length, it does not connect to the weapon at all. This is to improve
accuracy by allowing the barrel to resonate when a bullet is fired through
it, without getting interference from the points where the barrel and the
stock are connected in other weapons.

As you can see, putting a grenade launcher onto such a barrel would stop
if being free-floating, and thus reduce accuracy.

--
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Message no. 111
From: Arclight arclight@*********.de
Subject: Questions of great importance (Steve, Jon, RA:S people especially)
Date: Tue, 7 Sep 1999 13:57:32 +0200
And finally, Rand Ratinac expressed himself by writing:

<snip>

> Now I'm guessing that a free-floating barrel is what's used with rifles
> that break down. But that could be a very bad guess. If it is, though,
> that wouldn't cover military rifles that AREN'T designed to be broken
> down and ARE designed to be banged around a bit (like the Walther in
> SR). AND that would mean the GL wouldn't interfere with it much. Is
> that the case?

Free-floating barrels are used for at least most modern precision
rifles. For exampel, the US sniper weapon systems, the M40 and M24,
and the UK and german one, from Accuracy Arms AFAIK, have one.
As these rifles have to be pretty solid and preserve precision even
under extreme conditions, I doubt that f-f barrels are that susceptible
(sp?) to "be banged around", as you say.

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Message no. 112
From: James Dening james@************.force9.co.uk
Subject: Questions of great importance (Steve, Jon, RA:S people especially)
Date: Tue, 7 Sep 1999 17:28:58 +0100
>>This is to improve
>>accuracy by allowing the barrel to resonate when a bullet is fired through
>>it, without getting interference from the points where the barrel and the
>>stock are connected in other weapons.

>>As you can see, putting a grenade launcher onto such a barrel would stop
>>if being free-floating, and thus reduce accuracy.

Like, am I being really dim, or is this trivial? Attach the 'launcher to the stock,
then....hmmm?


Anyway, FWIW, I agree - a sniper rifle is a *very* focused bit of kit - no sniper
in his right mind would want to compromise the performance in that way...

And as for grenades as defense - WHAT? Based on where snipers are usually
concealed (enclosed salsa-making type places), the best personal weapon
would be an SMG (spray and run) or a decent heavy pistol. Not grenades.

J.
Message no. 113
From: Paul J. Adam Paul@********.demon.co.uk
Subject: Questions of great importance (Steve, Jon, RA:S people especially)
Date: Tue, 7 Sep 1999 17:46:47 +0100
In article <19990907054949.3577.rocketmail@******.mail.yahoo.com>,
Rand Ratinac <docwagon101@*****.com> writes
>But would it be a GOOD idea?
>>
>> Not really, IMHO. I can't see many snipers being keen on the idea.
>
>Why not?

If nothing else, think of the trajectories. A sniper rifle is a flat-shooting
high-velocity weapon, usually used off a bipod or some other support.

A grenade launcher fires at a much higher angle, due to its lower muzzle
velocity: so the sniper would have to lift his rifle off its rest, line up the
grenade shot, then get back into position. (Not to mention the bipod
might foul the GL barrel)

If he needs a thumper, just give him a MGL-6 or similar. Better yet, give
his _spotter_ the grenade launcher.

>> Is it just me that finds this ironic? :) SMG goes
>"clicketyclicketyclick", bullets go "BANGBANGBANG!" on impact...
>> Paul J. Adam
>
>*lol* Well, yes - but they wouldn't use that when they were trying to
>be quiet. :)

And nobody ever grabs the wrong magazine in a firefight, right? ;)

--
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Message no. 114
From: Gurth gurth@******.nl
Subject: Questions of great importance (Steve, Jon, RA:S people especially)
Date: Tue, 7 Sep 1999 21:08:18 +0200
According to James Dening, at 17:28 on 7 Sep 99, the word on
the street was...

> >>As you can see, putting a grenade launcher onto such a barrel would stop
> >>if being free-floating, and thus reduce accuracy.
>
> Like, am I being really dim, or is this trivial? Attach the 'launcher to the stock,
> then....hmmm?

Would be a possibility, certainly. But like you already said:

> Anyway, FWIW, I agree - a sniper rifle is a *very* focused bit of kit - no sniper
> in his right mind would want to compromise the performance in that way...

IMHO it's much better to put the GL into the spotter's hands, which means
it can be used (in emergencies) when the sniper is occupied.

> And as for grenades as defense - WHAT? Based on where snipers are usually
> concealed (enclosed salsa-making type places), the best personal weapon
> would be an SMG (spray and run) or a decent heavy pistol. Not grenades.

Why would a sniper be in enclosed places most of the time? In urban areas,
yes, I agree with this, but most operations for a military sniper would
not be in urban terrain, AFAIK. The main case against thrown grenades, as
well as pistols and SMGs, I'd say, is that the sniper would often be too
far away to use them defensively.

--
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De plaag is terug...!
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Message no. 115
From: Rand Ratinac docwagon101@*****.com
Subject: Questions of great importance (Steve, Jon, RA:S people especially)
Date: Tue, 7 Sep 1999 19:09:49 -0700 (PDT)
> >But would it be a GOOD idea?
> >>
> >> Not really, IMHO. I can't see many snipers being keen on the idea.

> >
> >Why not?
>
> If nothing else, think of the trajectories. A sniper rifle is a
flat-shooting high-velocity weapon, usually used off a bipod or some
other support.
>
> A grenade launcher fires at a much higher angle, due to its lower
muzzle velocity: so the sniper would have to lift his rifle off its
rest, line up the grenade shot, then get back into position. (Not to
mention the bipod might foul the GL barrel)

Okay. Slap down the bipod, pull up the rifle and start potting away
with the GL. In any case, I don't see it as an alternating thing. If
the sniper needs to use the GL, it's time to bug out. He'd be using it
to cover his retreat, with smoke and gas grenades and offensive or WP
ones to deter persistent pursuers.

> If he needs a thumper, just give him a MGL-6 or similar. Better yet,
give his _spotter_ the grenade launcher.

That's the other thing I was considering.

When it comes to spotters, though, can you GUARANTEE that a sniper will
always have one?

> >*lol* Well, yes - but they wouldn't use that when they were trying
to be quiet. :)
>
> And nobody ever grabs the wrong magazine in a firefight, right? ;)
> Paul J. Adam

Not if APDS are in your right pocket and EX Exp are in your left. These
are professionals. I might make that mistake, but I doubt highly
trained military personnel will.

Anyway, if you burn through a full SMG clip (30-odd rounds) on burst
fire and you need to reload and keep firing, I'd say you're probably
screwed anyway and it doesn't matter HOW much noise you make. Neh?

*Doc' continues his discussion with Paul's butt...*

==Doc'
(aka Mr. Freaky Big, Super-Dynamic Troll of Tomorrow)

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Message no. 116
From: Rand Ratinac docwagon101@*****.com
Subject: Questions of great importance (Steve, Jon, RA:S people especially)
Date: Tue, 7 Sep 1999 19:25:59 -0700 (PDT)
<Snippage(TM)>
> Anyway, FWIW, I agree - a sniper rifle is a *very* focused bit of kit
- no sniper in his right mind would want to compromise the performance
in that way...

You're probably right there.

> And as for grenades as defense - WHAT? Based on where snipers are
usually concealed (enclosed salsa-making type places), the best
personal weapon would be an SMG (spray and run) or a decent heavy
pistol. Not grenades.
> J.

As Gurth pointed out, that's a very cop/urban-centric POV. Sure, for
SWAT snipers that's often the case (although I wouldn't consider an
open rooftop a salsa-making place). But for military joes? An
open-field sniper could GREATLY benefit from a GL with mostly defensive
loads. Remember, you have to take the time to AIM an SMG or pistol if
you want to hit something. Not such a huge concern with a GL.

Could you imagine a squad of troopies chasing a sniper after the
sniper's capped off a full clip of 6 or 12 Hi-Ex grenades in their
direction?

*Doc' wonders if a grenade launcher would work as a deterrent to
relatives with a penchant for big, sloppy kisses...*
==Doc'
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Message no. 117
From: Rand Ratinac docwagon101@*****.com
Subject: Questions of great importance (Steve, Jon, RA:S people especially)
Date: Tue, 7 Sep 1999 19:45:59 -0700 (PDT)
> >> Then I flash back to "Clear and Present Danger". The sniper in
that
>
> Ack! Flashback is right- read the book.

Sorry, Kev. That ain't my genre. :) I've only seen the movie.

> >> carried his sniper rifle AND an assault rifle like the other
troopies.
>
> Actually, it was an SMG, as part of the "scout" component.
> Kevin Dole, aka CyberRaven, aka IronRaven, aka Steel Tengu

In the book? No idea. In the movie? Assault rifle - same as the ones
the other troopies had.
==Doc'
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Message no. 118
From: Rand Ratinac docwagon101@*****.com
Subject: Questions of great importance (Steve, Jon, RA:S people especially)
Date: Tue, 7 Sep 1999 19:55:03 -0700 (PDT)
> However, if the barrel was in a tubular free-float, as you would do
with an AR-15/M-16, Stoner SR-25 or Armalite AR-10 (the last two are
AR-15s on steroids and built for 7.62NATO class rounds), you could
design a mount that works off the tube. And it has been done by a
couple of outfits, and IIRC some of either Maimi PD or Dade County's
SWAT snipers use that very combo for certain applications (rifle for
direct applications, tear gas, smoke and flash-bangs for less direct
actions, is my guess). You would want to go with a long leged bipod
that is mounted on the sides of the forearm tube, similiar to the
WA-2000 or the FAMAS, but that would be easily enough done.

*Doc' drools...*

> Problem is, this works only for one family of rifles. You couldn't
do this with say a PSG-1, much less any bolt action.

So? Get yourself a rifle you CAN do it with, then.

> And for most applications, why would you want to? I can see building
bigger versions of most carbines (ie SR-25 to the M-16) in SR,
especially for bigger guys orks, trolls, the guy who starts his bench
press reps with an engine block), and fitting them with grenade
launchers, though.
> Kevin Dole, aka CyberRaven, aka IronRaven, aka Steel Tengu

Why?

Let me put it this way. You're sniping and suddenly you realise you've
been spotted. Either you a) stand up, sling your rifle, pull out your
MGL and start firing, or b) tilt up your rifle and start pumping out
grenades.

It's called speed convenience. And the less things you have to keep
track of, the less that can go wrong (usually). If you're holding your
rifle, you aren't going to lose your underbarrel GL. You could still
lose that MGL on your hip, though.

*Doc' is vindicated. Doc' cheers. "Yay."*
==Doc'
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Message no. 119
From: Rand Ratinac docwagon101@*****.com
Subject: Questions of great importance (Steve, Jon, RA:S people especially)
Date: Tue, 7 Sep 1999 20:02:59 -0700 (PDT)
> It's called speed convenience

speed AND convenience. AND!!!

Oops. :)

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Message no. 120
From: abortion_engine abortion_engine@*******.com
Subject: Questions of great importance (Steve, Jon, RA:S people especially)
Date: Tue, 7 Sep 1999 23:32:05 -0400
> > >> Then I flash back to "Clear and Present Danger". The sniper
in
> that
> >
> > Ack! Flashback is right- read the book.
>
> Sorry, Kev. That ain't my genre. :) I've only seen the movie.

Hell, they made us watch Clear and Present Danger in school, as an exercise
in getting out of clusterfucks.
Message no. 121
From: abortion_engine abortion_engine@*******.com
Subject: Questions of great importance (Steve, Jon, RA:S people especially)
Date: Tue, 7 Sep 1999 23:37:08 -0400
> > And nobody ever grabs the wrong magazine in a firefight, right? ;)
> > Paul J. Adam
>
> Not if APDS are in your right pocket and EX Exp are in your left. These
> are professionals. I might make that mistake, but I doubt highly
> trained military personnel will.

If you're carrying mismatched loads, put some black cloth tape around one of
them. You don't have to rely on sight; your fingers will know which is
which. Handy trick, especially if you're carrying ammo without a tactical
belt, or if you're carrying a fair number of clips loose in a duffel or a
gas mask pouch.

If you've got more than two types, use black electrical tape on the third.
It's reflective [a little] but it's a different texture than the cloth.

Granted, this presupposes nighttime work in an urban setting, but both gloss
and cloth tape come in camo if you're doing somethign else.
Message no. 122
From: Rand Ratinac docwagon101@*****.com
Subject: Questions of great importance (Steve, Jon, RA:S people especially)
Date: Tue, 7 Sep 1999 20:42:57 -0700 (PDT)
> SR-25 or AR-10. Both sub-MOA, detachable box, seriously
free-floating barrel. Add a Swan rail, and you can do it.

Swan rail?

> >Why?
>
> The bigger versions of the carbines? Easy, they would be real
rifles. In modern terms, it would be like issueing a mix of mostly
M-16 or HK-33s with some (say 1-2/squad) SR-25s and G-3s. It makes
perfect sense, becuase the real rifles can punch through stuff the
carbines can't, and argueeably have longer range. They can also be
used either in a "platoon supprot rifle" mode (like the Druganov is
used) or in a BAR-type role.
> However, I also grew up believing that you should hump a real rifle
and be able to hit things out to 800 with it, just in case. Mating to
a grenade laucnher..

Oops. Well, slight misunderstanding there, but those are some
interesting points in any event.

> >It's called speed convenience. And the less things you have to keep
track of, the less that can go wrong (usually). If you're holding your
>
> Not argueing the concept, I understand it, and it works for some
folks (such as the folks in Florida). I just personally have
reservations about it. Part of it is weight- a good, precision rifle
weighs about 12 pounds before you load it. Figure in a few more pounds
for an empty launcher. Add shells (thier what, ~1.5 pounds each?) for
the GL. This is a serious load out.
> The weight issue is part of the reason I generally prefeer to see
GLs mounted on carbines.
> Kevin Dole, aka CyberRaven, aka IronRaven, aka Steel Tengu

And for that reason, in this day and age, you're probably right. GLs
mated to sniper rifles would be a very specialised weapon. Those SWAT
guys don't need to be hauling their guns around for long distances
(usually), so the extra mass of the GL won't matter much.

However, in SR times, we have MINIgrenades...mmmm...:)

*Doc' suddenly gets the mental image of shoving a couple of
minigrenades up someone's nostrils, but he doesn't know why...*
==Doc'
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Message no. 123
From: Rand Ratinac docwagon101@*****.com
Subject: Questions of great importance (Steve, Jon, RA:S people especially)
Date: Tue, 7 Sep 1999 21:00:29 -0700 (PDT)
> > It's called protection. Could you imagine sneaking up on a sniper
and then having him let loose a barrage of minigrenades at you? :)
>
> Sneaking up on a sniper? That assumes you can pinpoint the sniper's
location (in which case the sniper hasn't done his or her job well
enough) and that the sniper doesn't see you coming (unlikely, as
observation is about as important in sniper training as accuracy with a
rifle). If you try to approach a sniper and the sniper has time to set
up a shot, I wouldn't rate your survival chances very highly...

Good points. Still, it's called "contingency planning". :) It's
unlikely to happen, but one time in ten, or a hundred, or a thousand,
SOMEONE'S going to get the drop on you.

And it's MUCH more of an issue in SR than in real life. I've played an
SR sniper and I've NEVER had a spotter (not enough manpower), and I've
rarely had the clear lines of sight of an open-field sniper that I need
in order to be able to observe everything around me.

> > It's SUCH a cool idea, though. :)
>
> So put the grenade launcher on the assault rifle.

Errr...that's what I meant. :)

> You could also make the sniper an ork, so that the weight won't be
much of a bother, either. Or equip the spotter with the assault rifle
and grenade launcher...

True - or a bulked-out adept or sammie. :)

Again, the spotter thing just doesn't happen in SR, except in the
largest of teams.

> Good, just making sure :) Too many shadowrunner teams carry all kinds
of different weapons, with the effect that when one person runs out of
ammo, the others can't share theirs...

Oh yes - way bad news.

Of course, that's not such an issue in SR GAMES, as different weapons
in the same class have interchangeable ammo. Unless you want to get
realistic, of course.

> > Ahhh...but I said an advanced milspec laser. I'm not going to give
it stats, but think of a man-portable version of the Firelance vehicle
laser - with more battery capacity. 15S base damage AND anti-vehicular.
>
> Okay, but what about the number of shots? That's my main objection to
a laser as a support weapon -- if the common types of laser hold only
20 shots, the best ones available might hold maybe 50 or so and still
be portable. For the same bulk and weight, you could have hundreds of
rounds for a machinegun.

Good point. But those bullets would just be bouncing off the tougher
drones. As I said, the laser is just for drone-killing and emergencies.
The only other thing that'd be of use in that role would be an assault
cannon (which also suffers from ammo limitations) and is hellishly
noisy.

> I don't remember if you mentioned this or not, but a large load of
grenades is also a necessity if they're going into a place like the
Renraku Arcology. Roomclearing gets very hard without them.
> Gurth@******.nl

Yup, mentioned. Not gonna forget them.

I'm not sure, but I think I may actually have given everyone MGL
pistols and a wide assortment of minigrenades. Tasty, neh?
==Doc'
(aka Mr. Freaky Big, Super-Dynamic Troll of Tomorrow)

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Message no. 124
From: Rand Ratinac docwagon101@*****.com
Subject: Questions of great importance (Steve, Jon, RA:S people especially)
Date: Tue, 7 Sep 1999 21:22:22 -0700 (PDT)
> >Swan rail?
>
> "Tubular" (actually, more rectangluar) forearm for AR-15-type rifles
that can mount an M-203 on the underside.
> Kevin Dole, aka CyberRaven, aka IronRaven, aka Steel Tengu

*Doc' crouches in the corner and sobs quietly...*

==Doc'
(aka Mr. Freaky Big, Super-Dynamic Troll of Tomorrow)

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Message no. 125
From: Rand Ratinac docwagon101@*****.com
Subject: Questions of great importance (Steve, Jon, RA:S people especially)
Date: Tue, 7 Sep 1999 22:21:43 -0700 (PDT)
> > From a technical point of view, unless you are in an area with LOTS
of EM static in the air (ie, standing under a radio transmitter, a
power plant, taking your socks out of the dryer), the pattern should
stay the same.
>
> Unless, of course, the system depends on a current being applied, in
which case I think it would be just like a typical computer monitor
when *it's* turned off, and go neutral gray. Which is what *I* see as
more likely.
> (>) Texas 2-Step

Same here. The polymers need power to absorb and change to a pattern.
Why would they KEEP that pattern when the power goes?

Or maybe it's possible to have a "base" colour of your choice that the
polymers revert to upon deactivation. Maybe a midnight blue in this
case...

That latter actually sounds, if not realistic, like what's been
described in previous SR product(s?). I'm thinking the story in Rigger
2 - it's the only place I can ever remember seeing anyone using RPs (a
van with a RP "paint job" IIRC).

Hmmm...I kinda like that idea...
==Doc'
(aka Mr. Freaky Big, Super-Dynamic Troll of Tomorrow)

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Message no. 126
From: Rand Ratinac docwagon101@*****.com
Subject: Questions of great importance (Steve, Jon, RA:S people especially)
Date: Tue, 7 Sep 1999 22:33:59 -0700 (PDT)
> >light or medium security before. Would they go for fully-enclosed
helmets in order to take full advantage of ruthenium cover? Or would
>
> Enclosed, with sensors inthe helmet (sight, eco location, radar,
hearing, IFF, et al) tied into a datajack, similiar to the way a rigger
uses vehicel sensors. Not sure of the mechanics, though.
> Kevin Dole, aka CyberRaven, aka IronRaven, aka Steel Tengu

Actually, yes...interesting thoughts springing up again...

But what about the adept and the mage? They don't HAVE datajacks...
==Doc'
(aka Mr. Freaky Big, Super-Dynamic Troll of Tomorrow)

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Message no. 127
From: Angelkiller 404 angelkiller404@**********.com
Subject: Questions of great importance (Steve, Jon, RA:S people especially)
Date: Wed, 8 Sep 1999 02:18:30 -0400
><Snippage(TM)>
>> Anyway, FWIW, I agree - a sniper rifle is a *very* focused bit of
kit
>- no sniper in his right mind would want to compromise the
performance
>in that way...
>
>You're probably right there.
>
>As Gurth pointed out, that's a very cop/urban-centric POV. Sure, for
>SWAT snipers that's often the case (although I wouldn't consider an
>open rooftop a salsa-making place). But for military joes? An
>open-field sniper could GREATLY benefit from a GL with mostly
defensive
>loads. Remember, you have to take the time to AIM an SMG or pistol if
>you want to hit something. Not such a huge concern with a GL.
>

I'd actually use an assault cannon in lieu of a grenade launcher (more
damage, better range), but has anyone thought about mounting a laser
designator onto a sniper rifle? Just get a few of those wonderful
Seader-Krupp laser-guided missiles, and...

Truthfully, though, an open field sniper might just benefit the most
from another sniper watching his back...or am I being too simplisitc?

>Could you imagine a squad of troopies chasing a sniper after the
>sniper's capped off a full clip of 6 or 12 Hi-Ex grenades in their
>direction?


No. They'd be shooting at him. Hope you've got lot of Athletics
dice.

-----
AK404

http://freespeech.org/ak404/
http://gibbed.com/parasiteve/
ICQ: 2157053

"You fool, pain is my friend! Allow me to introduce you to him!
BWAHAHAHAHAHAH!!!"
Message no. 128
From: Rand Ratinac docwagon101@*****.com
Subject: Questions of great importance (Steve, Jon, RA:S people especially)
Date: Wed, 8 Sep 1999 00:42:00 -0700 (PDT)
> >An open-field sniper could GREATLY benefit from a GL with mostly
defensive loads. Remember, you have to take the time to AIM an SMG or
pistol if you want to hit something. Not such a huge concern with a GL.
>
> I'd actually use an assault cannon in lieu of a grenade launcher
(more damage, better range),

But no area effect, which is the point. Also an assault cannon is a
HELL of a lot heavier. It is NOT a secondary weapon.

Be a little realistic, hmmm? :)

> but has anyone thought about mounting a laser designator onto a
sniper rifle? Just get a few of those wonderful Seader-Krupp
laser-guided missiles, and...

Wellll...

Actually, why bother? I mean, for a shadow team with big'n'nasty
equipment, sure, that'd probably be a good idea. For a real military,
though, the snipers are unlikely to have missiles at their beck and
call - they have other guys for that.

> Truthfully, though, an open field sniper might just benefit the most
from another sniper watching his back...or am I being too simplisitc?

A bit. Military snipers RARELY work in teams like that. And as I said
before, I'm talking contingencies. Maybe that might be the best way to
protect yourself (although a spotter with an automatic rifle would
probably be more useful), but you can't always count on having him
there. ESPECIALLY if you're a shadow team.

> >Could you imagine a squad of troopies chasing a sniper after the
sniper's capped off a full clip of 6 or 12 Hi-Ex grenades in their
direction?
>
> No. They'd be shooting at him. Hope you've got lot of Athletics
dice.
> AK404

In Shadowrun, perhaps, if your GM is being unrealistic. I must admit,
I'd probably fall into that trap myself. But realistically, when things
start blowing up around you, your automatic reaction is to HIT THE
DIRT! Only the most HIGHLY trained people would be able to completely
override that reaction and they aren't common - special forces calibre
at least. If I was GMing a realistic squad of troopies as soon as that
sniper starts blasting off grenades at them, they hunt cover.

*Doc' thinks AK's butt and Paul's butt have a lot in common...*
==Doc'
(aka Mr. Freaky Big, Super-Dynamic Troll of Tomorrow)

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Message no. 129
From: Bruce gyro@********.co.za
Subject: Questions of great importance (Steve, Jon, RA:S people especially)
Date: Wed, 8 Sep 1999 09:33:25 +0200
From: Rand Ratinac <docwagon101@*****.com>
Date: 08 September 1999 04:36
Subject: Re: Questions of great importance (Steve, Jon, RA:S people
especially)


SNIPPAGE

>As Gurth pointed out, that's a very cop/urban-centric POV. Sure, for
>SWAT snipers that's often the case (although I wouldn't consider an
>open rooftop a salsa-making place). But for military joes? An
>open-field sniper could GREATLY benefit from a GL with mostly
defensive
>loads. Remember, you have to take the time to AIM an SMG or pistol if
>you want to hit something. Not such a huge concern with a GL.
>
>Could you imagine a squad of troopies chasing a sniper after the
>sniper's capped off a full clip of 6 or 12 Hi-Ex grenades in their
>direction?
>Doc'

I cam imagine them coming after him cos they know he has to out of
ammo.
Thats if any of them are still all in one piece.

- + - BRUCE <gyro@********.co.za> -

MiX it UP!
Message no. 130
From: Bruce gyro@********.co.za
Subject: Questions of great importance (Steve, Jon, RA:S people especially)
Date: Wed, 8 Sep 1999 09:37:22 +0200
From: Rand Ratinac <docwagon101@*****.com>
To: shadowrn@*********.org <shadowrn@*********.org>
Date: 08 September 1999 05:04
Subject: Re: Questions of great importance (Steve, Jon, RA:S people
especially)



<SNIP technical goodies>
>Why?
>
>Let me put it this way. You're sniping and suddenly you realise
you've
>been spotted. Either you a) stand up, sling your rifle, pull out your
>MGL and start firing, or b) tilt up your rifle and start pumping out
>grenades.
>
>It's called speed convenience. And the less things you have to keep
>track of, the less that can go wrong (usually). If you're holding
your
>rifle, you aren't going to lose your underbarrel GL. You could still
>lose that MGL on your hip, though.
>Doc'

Look, if oyur sniper has been spotted and starts whiping off HE all
over the show
he wont act as a sniper for the rest of the mission. The entire
mission profile will
change. If he does realise he has been spotted, he should move damnit,
not let rip
with HE.

Besides, he should have a spotter and other teammates taking up the
enemy's attention
so that he can fulfil his role, right?

- + - BRUCE <gyro@********.co.za> -

MiX it UP!
Message no. 131
From: Arclight arclight@*********.de
Subject: Questions of great importance (Steve, Jon, RA:S people especially)
Date: Wed, 8 Sep 1999 11:59:13 +0200
And finally, Rand Ratinac expressed himself by writing:

<snip>

> > A grenade launcher fires at a much higher angle, due to its lower
> muzzle velocity: so the sniper would have to lift his rifle off its
> rest, line up the grenade shot, then get back into position. (Not to
> mention the bipod might foul the GL barrel)
>
> Okay. Slap down the bipod, pull up the rifle and start potting away
> with the GL. In any case, I don't see it as an alternating thing. If
> the sniper needs to use the GL, it's time to bug out. He'd be using it
> to cover his retreat, with smoke and gas grenades and offensive or WP
> ones to deter persistent pursuers.

Or use the launcher for the OICW; it's trajectory
is much flatter (?) than the 40mm types, and recoils is
similar to a 7,62NATO round.

<snip>

> When it comes to spotters, though, can you GUARANTEE that a sniper will
> always have one?

As long as he doesn't get killed, IMO yes.

--
[arclight@*********.de]<><><><><><>[ICQ14322211]
All suspects are guilty, serious. Otherwise they
wouldn't be suspects, would they?
<><><><[http://www.datahaven.de/arclight]><><><>;
Message no. 132
From: Paul J. Adam Paul@********.demon.co.uk
Subject: Questions of great importance (Steve, Jon, RA:S people especially)
Date: Wed, 8 Sep 1999 14:18:37 +0100
In article <19990908033807.403.qmail@*******.com>, abortion_engine
<abortion_engine@*******.com> writes
>> > And nobody ever grabs the wrong magazine in a firefight, right? ;)
>> > Paul J. Adam
>>
>> Not if APDS are in your right pocket and EX Exp are in your left. These
>> are professionals. I might make that mistake, but I doubt highly
>> trained military personnel will.
>
>If you're carrying mismatched loads, put some black cloth tape around one of
>them. You don't have to rely on sight; your fingers will know which is
>which. Handy trick, especially if you're carrying ammo without a tactical
>belt, or if you're carrying a fair number of clips loose in a duffel or a
>gas mask pouch.

What if you're wearing gloves?

I'm serious - you _need_ heavy leather gloves for fighting in built-up areas.
Far too much sharp glass or metallic debris around, and sliced-up fingers
might be nonlethal but they're pretty disabling.


--
Paul J. Adam
Message no. 133
From: Paul J. Adam Paul@********.demon.co.uk
Subject: Questions of great importance (Steve, Jon, RA:S people especially)
Date: Wed, 8 Sep 1999 14:24:14 +0100
In article <19990908022559.19005.rocketmail@******.mail.yahoo.com>,
Rand Ratinac <docwagon101@*****.com> writes
>> And as for grenades as defense - WHAT? Based on where snipers are
>usually concealed (enclosed salsa-making type places), the best
>personal weapon would be an SMG (spray and run) or a decent heavy
>pistol. Not grenades.
>> J.
>
>As Gurth pointed out, that's a very cop/urban-centric POV.

No, it's a very sniper-centric POV. No way would a sniper want to be that
close to the enemy...

>An
>open-field sniper could GREATLY benefit from a GL with mostly defensive
>loads. Remember, you have to take the time to AIM an SMG or pistol if
>you want to hit something. Not such a huge concern with a GL.

A GL needs _more_ aiming, not less: you need to estimate the range
much more accurately, and allow much more for wind, than with a rifle or
SMG.

Get your spotter to put the thumper on his rifle, if you need it.

>Could you imagine a squad of troopies chasing a sniper after the
>sniper's capped off a full clip of 6 or 12 Hi-Ex grenades in their
>direction?

Sure. It means he's out of rifle ammunition and now he's reloading his
grenade launcher.

Besides, in a military setting you don't send men running out at a sniper's
position; you throw smoke and manoeuvre to cover, or you call in mortar
fire on him.

>*Doc' wonders if a grenade launcher would work as a deterrent to
>relatives with a penchant for big, sloppy kisses...*

Nope.

--
Paul J. Adam
Message no. 134
From: Paul J. Adam Paul@********.demon.co.uk
Subject: Questions of great importance (Steve, Jon, RA:S people especially)
Date: Wed, 8 Sep 1999 14:16:59 +0100
In article <19990908020949.28827.rocketmail@******.mail.yahoo.com>,
Rand Ratinac <docwagon101@*****.com> writes
>> If he needs a thumper, just give him a MGL-6 or similar. Better yet,
>give his _spotter_ the grenade launcher.
>
>That's the other thing I was considering.
>
>When it comes to spotters, though, can you GUARANTEE that a sniper will
>always have one?

Can you GUARANTEE the sniper will have the right grenade loaded in his
thumper?

It's a lot less convenient for a sniper, bedded down in firing position, to
change loads than it is for his spotter...

Also, one _excellent_ reason to have a spotter - the sniper's spending a -
lot- of time with his eye glued to a scope. Who's watching his back?

>> And nobody ever grabs the wrong magazine in a firefight, right? ;)
>
>Not if APDS are in your right pocket and EX Exp are in your left. These
>are professionals. I might make that mistake, but I doubt highly
>trained military personnel will.

It happened. 1st Battalion, the Queen's Regiment, went out to do two
exercises. The first was with blank rounds, the second with live. "Blank on
the left, live on the right" for magazine pouches.

Inevitably, the blank exercise had to be stopped when the defenders found
7.62mm ball rounds coming past them... even exercise firefights get lively
as hell. Start throwing live rounds about, and you want to keep life as
simple as humanly possible.

>Anyway, if you burn through a full SMG clip (30-odd rounds) on burst
>fire and you need to reload and keep firing, I'd say you're probably
>screwed anyway and it doesn't matter HOW much noise you make. Neh?

Nope. Any idea how much ammo _real_ firefights get through?


--
Paul J. Adam
Message no. 135
From: Arclight arclight@*********.de
Subject: Questions of great importance (Steve, Jon, RA:S people especially)
Date: Wed, 8 Sep 1999 17:39:33 +0200
And finally, IronRaven expressed himself by writing:

<snip>

> Actually, I think that minigreandes from SR fill this role
> already, given
> 50 years of explosives development and design refinement. Add a
> rangefinder and link, with airburst grenades, and you have the
> OICW package.

I think you know that the OICW can do a lot more than
airburst some grenades with a high degree of precision. You
can adjust the data from the rangefinder, and there are 4
settings pre-programmed for the grenades. And with using one
switch, you have a nice carbine as second weapon. All this
at IIRC a bit more weight than a M16A2. You only need some
more ammo to carry around...

--
[arclight@*********.de]<><><><><><>[ICQ14322211]
Wenn Du nen Freund brauchst, kauf dir nen Hund.
<><><><[http://www.datahaven.de/arclight]><><><>;
Message no. 136
From: Paul J. Adam Paul@********.demon.co.uk
Subject: Questions of great importance (Steve, Jon, RA:S people especially)
Date: Thu, 9 Sep 1999 00:00:02 +0100
In article <3.0.3.32.19990908184421.00a9b1cc@***.softhome.net>,
IronRaven <cyberraven@********.net> writes
> Grunt level weapons should be simple, reliable and able to survive being
>used to butstroke a water buffalo into submission.

Over on ShadowTK I had a character express the (doubtless heretical)
opinion that a suggested UCAS SpecFor unit should train with and use AK-
family weapons. Easy to get ammo and spare parts for, simple and
reliable, utterly deniable, and while not sniper weapons they have quite
respectable combat accuracy if the right examples are chosen.

--
Paul J. Adam
Message no. 137
From: Rand Ratinac docwagon101@*****.com
Subject: Questions of great importance (Steve, Jon, RA:S people especially)
Date: Wed, 8 Sep 1999 18:06:19 -0700 (PDT)
<Snipples(TM)>
> I would like to toss this little bit of thinking into this mess. The
Sniper could have some kind of assistance drone working with him, that
might be using "FDDM" or "IVIS", and place the same kind of modifier
onto his/her Sniper Rifle
<Snippola(TM)>
> -K

Interesting idea, K.

Why not take it to its logical conclusion? If you can have a drone
covering you, why put yourself at risk at all? Why not have a drone
doing the sniping as well?

In a well-equipped world, snipers will be phased out by riggers as the
riggers are simply more versatile and aren't risking their hides.

Of course, I personally hate the idea. I REALLY like my adept sniper.
:)

*Doc' sulks and starts collecting zappers...*
==Doc'
(aka Mr. Freaky Big, Super-Dynamic Troll of Tomorrow)

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Message no. 138
From: Rand Ratinac docwagon101@*****.com
Subject: Questions of great importance (Steve, Jon, RA:S people especially)
Date: Wed, 8 Sep 1999 18:23:52 -0700 (PDT)
> >> And as for grenades as defense - WHAT? Based on where snipers are
usually concealed (enclosed salsa-making type places), the best
personal weapon would be an SMG (spray and run) or a decent heavy
pistol. Not grenades.
> >> J.
> >
> >As Gurth pointed out, that's a very cop/urban-centric POV.
>
> No, it's a very sniper-centric POV. No way would a sniper want to be
that close to the enemy...

No, Paul, what JAMES was discussing was unsniperish, except in a SWAT
team or urban theatre situation. You're talking about something else.
And you're right there. But if a sniper wants to carry a secondary
weapon, would a pistol or SMG really be as good as a GL? AFAIK, those
things don't have the range of a GL, so the GL allows the sniper to
keep his distance moreso than the others.

> A GL needs _more_ aiming, not less: you need to estimate the range
much more accurately, and allow much more for wind than with a rifle or
SMG.

Sorry, poor phrasing. Aiming is not such a concern if you want to
DISSUADE pursuit. It is if you want to HIT pursuers.

How hard is it to put a bunch of smoke grenades about 50 metres behind
you and in a 20-odd metre row?

> Get your spotter to put the thumper on his rifle, if you need it.

Again, fine for the military. Not so good in SR.

> >Could you imagine a squad of troopies chasing a sniper after the
sniper's capped off a full clip of 6 or 12 Hi-Ex grenades in their
direction?
>
> Sure. It means he's out of rifle ammunition and now he's reloading
his grenade launcher.

So you're saying the sniper would stay put and hit the bad guys until
he runs outta ammo. Eh - I could see it if he HAD enough ammo to deal
with them all. If there's a whole bunch of 'em after me, though, I'd be
taking to my heels.

> Besides, in a military setting you don't send men running out at a
sniper's position; you throw smoke and manoeuvre to cover, or you call
in mortar fire on him.

If you have a senior officer with info, men and the appropriate
materiels at hand. Anyway, you're being too literal. A patrol stumbles
across a sniper. Okay, so they don't go charging after him, they hunt
cover and shoot to keep his head down while calling in support. Would
THAT be how they'd operate?

If so, sniper-boy caps off a few grenades, the grunts stop shooting (so
much) because now they're worried about being hit themselves and
sniper-boy can get the hell out of there.

Does THAT make sense?

> >*Doc' wonders if a grenade launcher would work as a deterrent to
relatives with a penchant for big, sloppy kisses...*
>
> Nope.
> Paul J. Adam

*Doc' holds up a rabid rottweiler for Paul's inspection. "Well?"*
==Doc'
(aka Mr. Freaky Big, Super-Dynamic Troll of Tomorrow)

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Message no. 139
From: Rand Ratinac docwagon101@*****.com
Subject: Questions of great importance (Steve, Jon, RA:S people especially)
Date: Wed, 8 Sep 1999 18:56:15 -0700 (PDT)
> >> If he needs a thumper, just give him a MGL-6 or similar. Better
yet, give his _spotter_ the grenade launcher.
> >
> >That's the other thing I was considering.
> >
> >When it comes to spotters, though, can you GUARANTEE that a sniper
will always have one?
>
> Can you GUARANTEE the sniper will have the right grenade loaded in
his thumper?
>
> It's a lot less convenient for a sniper, bedded down in firing
position, to change loads than it is for his spotter...
>
> Also, one _excellent_ reason to have a spotter - the sniper's
spending a - lot- of time with his eye glued to a scope. Who's watching
his back?

Again, that's the military/SR problem. In the military (and most other
real-life sniper situations) you HAVE a spotter. What about SR (when
you rarely do) or the real life situations when you DON'T have one?
Then you have to watch your own back.

> It happened. 1st Battalion, the Queen's Regiment, went out to do two
exercises. The first was with blank rounds, the second with live.
"Blank on the left, live on the right" for magazine pouches.
>
> Inevitably, the blank exercise had to be stopped when the defenders
found 7.62mm ball rounds coming past them... even exercise firefights
get lively as hell. Start throwing live rounds about, and you want to
keep life as simple as humanly possible.

Okay. So they'll use some of the techniques you guys have been talking
about.

> >Anyway, if you burn through a full SMG clip (30-odd rounds) on burst
fire and you need to reload and keep firing, I'd say you're probably
screwed anyway and it doesn't matter HOW much noise you make. Neh?
>
> Nope. Any idea how much ammo _real_ firefights get through?
> Paul J. Adam

A heap. At which point the other side has been firing and has had the
time to call in reinforcements. In which case it doesn't matter if YOU
start making noise, because THEY'VE been making noise for ages. So, as
I said, you're screwed (at least as far as being quiet goes).

Silent firefights are a ONE-WAY STREET. The sneaky guys have to take
out the opposition quickly and quietly. You give them the time to get
off more than one or two shots and you've lost the advantage that
silencers and sound-suppressors give you. Right?
==Doc'
(aka Mr. Freaky Big, Super-Dynamic Troll of Tomorrow)

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Message no. 140
From: Rand Ratinac docwagon101@*****.com
Subject: Questions of great importance (Steve, Jon, RA:S people especially)
Date: Wed, 8 Sep 1999 18:59:40 -0700 (PDT)
> >SR sniper and I've NEVER had a spotter (not enough manpower), and
I've
>
> Well, talk to your rigger and decker and build one.
> Kevin Dole, aka CyberRaven, aka IronRaven, aka Steel Tengu

*Doc' looks embarrassed.*

Well, I haven't used him with a rigger (yet) or a decker who knew
enough about mechanics to build something like that.

You work with what you have, you know?
==Doc'
(aka Mr. Freaky Big, Super-Dynamic Troll of Tomorrow)

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Message no. 141
From: Rand Ratinac docwagon101@*****.com
Subject: Questions of great importance (Steve, Jon, RA:S people especially)
Date: Wed, 8 Sep 1999 19:01:38 -0700 (PDT)
> > When it comes to spotters, though, can you GUARANTEE that a sniper
will always have one?
>
> As long as he doesn't get killed, IMO yes.
> [arclight@*********.de]

Again, military situations, sure. SR - very iffy.
==Doc'
(aka Mr. Freaky Big, Super-Dynamic Troll of Tomorrow)

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Message no. 142
From: Rand Ratinac docwagon101@*****.com
Subject: Questions of great importance (Steve, Jon, RA:S people especially)
Date: Wed, 8 Sep 1999 19:21:02 -0700 (PDT)
> Look, if oyur sniper has been spotted and starts whiping off HE all
over the show he wont act as a sniper for the rest of the mission. The
entire mission profile will change. If he does realise he has been
spotted, he should move damnit, not let rip with HE.

Sure, but it's six of one, half-a-dozen of the other. If he fires
grenades, he makes noise and he can't snipe. If he DOESN'T fire, the
other side does, they make noise and he can't act as a sniper. Either
way, he's stuffed.

I'm not looking at the GL as an alternate weapon (except in extremely
rare cases), I'm looking at it as a defensive weapon to cover a retreat
when the mission is shot - or the mission is OVER and he's being chased
by the bad guys.

I mean, really, what happens when you make the kill and it's time to
bug out? You think the bad guys WON'T be chasing you (if they find
you)?

> Besides, he should have a spotter and other teammates taking up the
enemy's attention so that he can fulfil his role, right?
> - + - BRUCE <gyro@********.co.za> -

Right, he SHOULD. Doesn't mean he WILL.

*"Dib dib dib, dob dob dob and all that."*
==Doc'
(aka Mr. Freaky Big, Super-Dynamic Troll of Tomorrow)

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Message no. 143
From: Rand Ratinac docwagon101@*****.com
Subject: Questions of great importance (Steve, Jon, RA:S people especially)
Date: Wed, 8 Sep 1999 19:55:54 -0700 (PDT)
> >If you have a senior officer with info, men and the
> appropriate
>
> Err....
> In the West, we teach our sargents and grunts how to think.

Yes, but they don't always have what they NEED. You chopped the last
part of my post, Kevin. The appropriate MATERIEL. (Sorry, can't do the
funny accent thingy. :) ) Those troopies may KNOW what to do, but
there's no guarantee they will have the manpower or equipment to do so.

> >materiels at hand. Anyway, you're being too
> literal. A patrol stumbles
> >across a sniper. Okay, so they don't go charging
> after him, they hunt
>
> Well, if the sniper lets them "stumble across" him, he's srcewed up.
His options are to either engage or not engage. If they are likely to
hit his location, he should be booting out of there and thinking "don't
see me, I'm just a bush".

Fair enough. Talking contingencies though (I like doing that :) ), even
the best situational awareness isn't going let the sniper spot each and
every danger each and every time.

> >cover and shoot to keep his head down while calling in support.
Would THAT be how they'd operate?
>
> One way of doing it, I supose. And while they wait for air or arty,
I'm getting the hell outta Dodge.

That's how I'd do it, but it'd be difficult if they're shooting rounds
over my head all the time. In which case a GL would be mahhhvellous for
suppressing their suppressive fire.

Yes, hopefully my spotter can do that for me, but there aren't any
guarantees. And if you haven't got a spotter...

> Either than, or I blow the radio man's chest out through his radio
pack and then move onto other targets, but only if I'm real confident
in my position.
> Kevin Dole, aka CyberRaven, aka IronRaven, aka Steel Tengu

Yeah, that's cool, but you really only want to do that if they haven't
had the chance to get a message off or if you're so close to achieving
your mission that it won't matter if they got a message out or not.

I suppose you could shoot radio-guy to prevent them from following you
and radioing coordinates, then bug out, but that isn't always going to
work, is it?
==Doc'
(aka Mr. Freaky Big, Super-Dynamic Troll of Tomorrow)

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Message no. 144
From: Rand Ratinac docwagon101@*****.com
Subject: Questions of great importance (Steve, Jon, RA:S people especially)
Date: Wed, 8 Sep 1999 20:16:20 -0700 (PDT)
> >You work with what you have, you know?
>
> Sounds like someone needs to kiss up to thier
> fixer/dealer (and maybe work thier GMover with a wiffleball bat for a
half hour <g>).
> To buy one, I'd say 20K yen (it is basically the brians of a sentry
gun with some changes and some excessories), with availability of
something like 12/30 days with and SI of around 2 becuase it is of
limited use on the streets. Case has B3/I5 armour, waterproof, weighs
around 4 kg with the tripod, and a conceal of 3. Has ragnefinder, mag
3 (~ x15) optics, with lo-lite and thermal modes, and can call wind.
Figure it sets up inabout two minutes, needs a minute to initialize,
and it really likes to have a map soft and GPS data. It talks to your
encephalon or I/O system as per your rules (I've never heard of two
groups doing it quite the same way).
> I might make something up that uses my Smartsight system for
datafeed.
> Kevin Dole, aka CyberRaven, aka IronRaven, aka Steel Tengu

Pretty toy. :)

What does my unaugmented adept sniper do, though? He can't link into it
cybernetically. Give it a microtransceiver and a voice module (or some
such thing) so it can talk to him?
==Doc'
(aka Mr. Freaky Big, Super-Dynamic Troll of Tomorrow)

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Message no. 145
From: abortion_engine abortion_engine@*******.com
Subject: Questions of great importance (Steve, Jon, RA:S peopleespecially)
Date: Wed, 8 Sep 1999 23:26:03 -0400
Thank god. I sure would like to have you along next time I play my
uber-Rigger. It'd be nice to have someone who understands what I can do with
all these drones. [C'mon, guys, they're there for a reason!]

Integration is essential to the fabric of Shadowrun now, at least on the
high-end. [And particularly if your GM read RBB2 before you did, and reads
FoF every night when he goes to sleep.]


----- Original Message -----
From: <Ereskanti@***.com>
To: <shadowrn@*********.org>
Sent: Wednesday, September 08, 1999 1:26 PM
Subject: Re: Questions of great importance (Steve, Jon, RA:S
peopleespecially)


> In a message dated 9/7/1999 2:08:55 PM US Eastern Standard Time,
> gurth@******.nl writes:
>
> > > Anyway, FWIW, I agree - a sniper rifle is a *very* focused bit of
kit -
> no
> > sniper
> > > in his right mind would want to compromise the performance in that
way...
> >
> > IMHO it's much better to put the GL into the spotter's hands, which
means
> > it can be used (in emergencies) when the sniper is occupied.
>
> I would like to toss this little bit of thinking into this mess. The
Sniper
> could have some kind of assistance drone working with him, that might be
> using "FDDM" or "IVIS", and place the same kind of modifier onto
his/her
> Sniper Rifle. For several moments, the Sniper "paints/designates" several
> targets ahead of time. These are then placed into the FDDM/IVIS systems
of
> the drone travelling with. If the Sniper begins to fall under fire, the
> Sniper merely expends a free action (via a cyberlink in this instance) to
> tell the drone(s) in question to "deal with target 'b' now". This way the
> Sniper retains control over his situation and can respond accordingly.
This
> is the manner of the future. Truly capable/resourceful are going to want
to
> retain a level of self-assurance and control. In the age of demi-paranoia
> that SR has (at least, in the eyes of the "Prime Runners" that move within
it
> have) it would seem like a suitable alternative, and would mean less
people
> involved that you would have to split the payment with. And along with
> payment, the Karmic Reputation.
>
> "Why yes sir, I do work alone ..."
> "But this last incident reported continued sniper activity in the midst of
> grenade coverage of larger targets ... surely you had to have someone
backing
> you up..."
> "No sir, I'm just capable of planning ahead better ... and isn't that what
> you want in this instance?"
> "Yes, so very true. Now then, lets' discuss those nasty details of
> payment........."
>
> -K
>
>
Message no. 146
From: abortion_engine abortion_engine@*******.com
Subject: Questions of great importance (Steve, Jon, RA:S people especially)
Date: Wed, 8 Sep 1999 23:32:12 -0400
> At 14.18 09-08-99 +0100, you wrote:
> >What if you're wearing gloves?
>
> I use coloured baseplates to mark what is in the mag. HOwever, if need to
> be able to keep track of various loads in readily available pouches, you
> can get lumincent paint. It needs to be charged from alight source, but
> one dot for ball, two for HE and AP, and three for tracer works.
> Or, you can add a strip of luminscent paint to the bases of your mags and
> write (symbols are easier to deal with than words, mind you) what is in
> them with thick, alc-based markers.
>
> >Far too much sharp glass or metallic debris around, and sliced-up fingers
> >might be nonlethal but they're pretty disabling.
>
> Even in the woods, you want gloves- wire, thorns, serrated leaves, old
> stone walls, all kinds of things. And having gloves, a few biners, a
heavy
> belt and 40 feet of rope is a good idea in general, reguardless of your
> theatre. You can anchor for repell in a few second sonce you know how,
and
> sliding 30 feet and dropping five or six is better than just jumping over
a
> 40 foot cliff or out of a 5th story window.
>
I never wear gloves so thick I can't tell the difference between cloth and
slick tape. It's pretty obvious. I like to use those Kevlar Friskmasters;
they're really cut-resistant, but they're shooter's gloves, so you can still
feel through them. Usually, though, I settle for Hatch's Neoprene Specialist
gloves. They're fantastic. They don't resist cutting or tearing all that
well--I've got a big hole in my thumb right now, in fact, thank you very
much--but there's nothing I can't feel while wearing them. They're made out
of wetsuit material. Good stuff. It'd be nice to have a Kevlar glove with
neoprene underfingers, but glovemakers don't really care what I think.
Message no. 147
From: abortion_engine abortion_engine@*******.com
Subject: Questions of great importance (Steve, Jon, RA:S people especially)
Date: Wed, 8 Sep 1999 23:40:24 -0400
----- Original Message -----
From: IronRaven <cyberraven@********.net>
To: <shadowrn@*********.org>
Sent: Wednesday, September 08, 1999 6:44 PM
Subject: RE: Questions of great importance (Steve, Jon, RA:S people
especially)


> At 17.39 09-08-99 +0200, you wrote:
> > I think you know that the OICW can do a lot more than
> >airburst some grenades with a high degree of precision. You
>
> I am somewhat familiar with the system's capabilities. My biggest
> objection is to making the grenade launcher the primary weapon, rather
than
> the carbine component. I admit that I am "old school", and place an
> emphasis on marksmanship, so that colours my opinion. I also have
> reservations about the amount of ammuntion that can be carried, the fact
> that it reduces the need to teach aiming (which is highly useful skill
when
> there are things you don't want to hit around) and the fact that as far as
> I can tell, it is not really suitable for indirect fire. It also seems
> likely that you can sabotage that oh-so-critical range finder, and that
> making a sesor to detect would be very easy- there goes the concept of
> ambushes.
> Now, if the Army want's to issue them to replace half of the M-203s (one
> of each to a squad), OK. But all of them, or even all rifles as I've
heard
> some individuals state, being switched over to the OICWs is a scary
> thought. The OCIW has the tech edge and more firepower, but the M-203 can
> be used as a baby mortar if need be, is mechanically simple and is more
> versatile. The idea I keep hearing is for urban combat- OK, that's all
> fine and good. Does that mean that grunts are going to have to learn an
> addition weapon and carry one that they aren't as familiar with, due to
> training budget restrictions, in the worst terrain known, after the trade
> in thier regular rifle? Or are you going to have units that do nothing
but
> urban?
>
> >switch, you have a nice carbine as second weapon. All this
>
> Barrel is a bit stubby for my taste.
>
> >at IIRC a bit more weight than a M16A2. You only need some
>
> Actually, quite a bit more than the -16A2, even with an M-203 under it,
> IIRC. And a hell of a lot more expensive.
>
> To me, the thing reeks of people who are trying to short-cut things and
> worship technology. Troops aren't smart enough to learn how to shoot,
give
> them something that fires salvos, even if it frequently a tactically
> inferior weapon and it requires batteries to be used at all. (I may have
> red dots on some of my rifles and shotguns, but I can pull them off and go
> to the iron sights in about a minute, and fi thebattereis die, the gun
> still go "bang"- no can do with the main part of the OICW.)
> OK, that works fine until someone actually figures out how to break the
> damn thing- then they have a multi-grand weapon that is worthless except
> maybe as a club that might be fixable if the only guy in the platoon with
> an electronics degree didn't get tagged five seconds into a firefight and
> he has four or five quite minutes to fix it.
> Grunt level weapons should be simple, reliable and able to survive being
> used to butstroke a water buffalo into submission.
>

Would you please forward a copy of this message to every military standards
commission in the world? I'm sure you'd get a free beer at every military
base in the world.

These people don't seem to get that a rifle is not an airplane--more complex
is not better. [Hell, to hear some pilots tell it, they'd rather everybody
still flew Sopwith Camels.]

Excellent point about red dot and reticle sights. I sometimes use laser
sights, but ever since the first time the battery died--yes, Joseph, you
warned me--I spent at least half my shooting practice firing without one. I
wish I could use red dot or reticle sights, but my eyes are kind of wierd,
and I can't even use scopes properly. I can never see through them right.
[Don't ask me, ask my stupid eye doctor.]

Using a grenade launcher as a primary weapon is, in my book--I'm old school
too--the sheerest folly.

And hey, someone want to tell me what happens to this thousand-dollar watsis
when you drop it in a mud puddle?
Message no. 148
From: abortion_engine abortion_engine@*******.com
Subject: Questions of great importance (Steve, Jon, RA:S people especially)
Date: Thu, 9 Sep 1999 00:04:10 -0400
> In article <3.0.3.32.19990908184421.00a9b1cc@***.softhome.net>,
> IronRaven <cyberraven@********.net> writes
> > Grunt level weapons should be simple, reliable and able to survive
being
> >used to butstroke a water buffalo into submission.
>
> Over on ShadowTK I had a character express the (doubtless heretical)
> opinion that a suggested UCAS SpecFor unit should train with and use AK-
> family weapons. Easy to get ammo and spare parts for, simple and
> reliable, utterly deniable, and while not sniper weapons they have quite
> respectable combat accuracy if the right examples are chosen.
>
> --
> Paul J. Adam
>
You know, I've used a lot of rifles. There was a time in my life when I used
an M-16A1 for everything. It was never more than arm's reach away. I cleaned
it [like I had a choice], I shot it, I carried it, and in private moments, I
kissed it. [No, really.] And if I occassionally used it to scratch my back,
people were usually inclined to overlook the action.

But AK family weapons...man. You just can't bust one. They cost, what, four
quid and change now? [Not really, but it sure seems that way.] How about
those barrel-clearing instructions? "If barrel is not clear: fire two to
three rounds through barrel. Barrel is now being clear." And a whole family
now? Shotguns, assault rifles, the works? Kalashnikov gets my vote.
Message no. 149
From: abortion_engine abortion_engine@*******.com
Subject: Questions of great importance (Steve, Jon, RA:S people especially)
Date: Thu, 9 Sep 1999 00:26:27 -0400
----- Original Message -----
From: Rand Ratinac <docwagon101@*****.com>
To: <shadowrn@*********.org>
Sent: Wednesday, September 08, 1999 11:16 PM
Subject: Re: Questions of great importance (Steve, Jon, RA:S people
especially)


> > >You work with what you have, you know?
> >
> > Sounds like someone needs to kiss up to thier
> > fixer/dealer (and maybe work thier GMover with a wiffleball bat for a
> half hour <g>).
> > To buy one, I'd say 20K yen (it is basically the brians of a sentry
> gun with some changes and some excessories), with availability of
> something like 12/30 days with and SI of around 2 becuase it is of
> limited use on the streets. Case has B3/I5 armour, waterproof, weighs
> around 4 kg with the tripod, and a conceal of 3. Has ragnefinder, mag
> 3 (~ x15) optics, with lo-lite and thermal modes, and can call wind.
> Figure it sets up inabout two minutes, needs a minute to initialize,
> and it really likes to have a map soft and GPS data. It talks to your
> encephalon or I/O system as per your rules (I've never heard of two
> groups doing it quite the same way).
> > I might make something up that uses my Smartsight system for
> datafeed.
> > Kevin Dole, aka CyberRaven, aka IronRaven, aka Steel Tengu
>
> Pretty toy. :)
>
> What does my unaugmented adept sniper do, though? He can't link into it
> cybernetically. Give it a microtransceiver and a voice module (or some
> such thing) so it can talk to him?
> ==> Doc'
> (aka Mr. Freaky Big, Super-Dynamic Troll of Tomorrow)
>
> .sig Sauer
> __________________________________________________
> Do You Yahoo!?
> Bid and sell for free at http://auctions.yahoo.com
>
>
'Trodes, my friend. 'Trodes.
Message no. 150
From: Rand Ratinac docwagon101@*****.com
Subject: Questions of great importance (Steve, Jon, RA:S people especially)
Date: Wed, 8 Sep 1999 22:40:33 -0700 (PDT)
> > > I would like to toss this little bit of thinking into this mess.
The Sniper could have some kind of assistance drone working with him,
that might be using "FDDM" or "IVIS", and place the same kind of
modifier onto his/her Sniper Rifle
> > <Snippola(TM)>
> > > -K
> >
> > Interesting idea, K.
> >
> > Why not take it to its logical conclusion? If you can have a drone
covering you, why put yourself at risk at all? Why not have a drone
doing the sniping as well?
>
> Because, as per SR rules, "Drones" and "Riggers" cannot make
"Called
Shots". At least, that is the rule that was quoted to me by someone
who plays them more than I and actually read the Rigger-2 from cover to
cover where I went through it section at a time. Snipers *NEED* to be
able to make called shots.

Why?

Realistically, sure. But in SR? When you're using a 14S (or 14D - a
drone can use a Barrett a lot better than a person can) rifle, called
shots will make little, if any, difference.

> IF the rules is correct,

No, K. If the rules ARE correct...

8-)

> > In a well-equipped world, snipers will be phased out by riggers as
the riggers are simply more versatile and aren't risking their hides.
> >
> > Of course, I personally hate the idea. I REALLY like my adept
sniper. :)
>
> I don't think *that* idea will ever happen. In most cases, the
rigger has one problem over the sniper. Cyberware Cost.

Note the "well-equipped world" phrase. Realistically, snipers would
still have their place in cheap militaries, small-time shadow teams and
grunt corp forces, but spec forces teams (corp or military),
well-equipped military forces and high-end shadow teams would be able
to afford this.

> > *Doc' sulks and starts collecting zappers...*
>
> Zappers???
> -K

Well, whatever. Not sure if I used the right name. You know, those
nasty, rigger-stuffing missiles from Lone Star and Rigger 2.
==Doc'
(aka Mr. Freaky Big, Super-Dynamic Troll of Tomorrow)

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Message no. 151
From: Rand Ratinac docwagon101@*****.com
Subject: Questions of great importance (Steve, Jon, RA:S people especially)
Date: Wed, 8 Sep 1999 22:43:32 -0700 (PDT)
> > What does my unaugmented adept sniper do, though? He can't link
into it cybernetically. Give it a microtransceiver and a voice module
(or some such thing) so it can talk to him?
> > Doc'
>
> 'Trodes, my friend. 'Trodes.

Jeeeeeez...

I need to get SR1 out again. :)

Do they even have prices for those things in SR2 or 3?
==Doc'
(aka Mr. Freaky Big, Super-Dynamic Troll of Tomorrow)

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Message no. 152
From: Rand Ratinac docwagon101@*****.com
Subject: Questions of great importance (Steve, Jon, RA:S people especially)
Date: Wed, 8 Sep 1999 23:08:21 -0700 (PDT)
> > > > *Doc' sulks and starts collecting zappers...*
> > >
> > > Zappers???
> > > -K
> >
> > Well, whatever. Not sure if I used the right name. You know, those
nasty, rigger-stuffing missiles from Lone Star and Rigger 2.
>
> MEAN!!! You are MEAN!!! But you know what? Did you ever look at
that drone for the Zappers in R2 (the missile I mean, not the drone,
sorry), take the little "balls" and cart them around and use them like
"EMP Grenades?" We do. Absolutely fiendish. Sure, you have to
actually *hit* someone then, but what the hell is the difference. The
chaos is sheer enjoyment if it is planned and followed through
correctly.
> -K

*lol*

And you call me mean??

GO...sh...!!!

The ULTIMATE drone killers! Can you imagine what you could do in the
arc if you took in a few pouches of those babies???

*Doc' starts to exhibit spasms not unlike those of a rigger hit by a
zapper...or a person in pure and utter ecstasy...*
==Doc'
(aka Mr. Freaky Big, Super-Dynamic Troll of Tomorrow)

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Message no. 153
From: abortion_engine abortion_engine@*******.com
Subject: Questions of great importance (Steve, Jon, RA:S people especially)
Date: Thu, 9 Sep 1999 03:18:27 -0400
> > > What does my unaugmented adept sniper do, though? He can't link
> into it cybernetically. Give it a microtransceiver and a voice module
> (or some such thing) so it can talk to him?
> > > Doc'
> >
> > 'Trodes, my friend. 'Trodes.
>
> Jeeeeeez...
>
> I need to get SR1 out again. :)
>
> Do they even have prices for those things in SR2 or 3?

I doubt it. [You mean you don't just make this stuff up? Man, my GM's gonna
be _pissed._]
Message no. 154
From: abortion_engine abortion_engine@*******.com
Subject: Questions of great importance (Steve, Jon, RA:Speopleespecially)
Date: Thu, 9 Sep 1999 03:22:17 -0400
> Okay, now I have to say it. Whomever this person is reading that stuff
like
> that needs help ... psychiatric help ;-P
>
> -K
>

I don't even begin to disagree.
Message no. 155
From: Gurth gurth@******.nl
Subject: Questions of great importance (Steve, Jon, RA:S people especially)
Date: Thu, 9 Sep 1999 12:29:48 +0200
According to Rand Ratinac, at 18:23 on 8 Sep 99, the word on
the street was...

> > Besides, in a military setting you don't send men running out at a
> > sniper's position; you throw smoke and manoeuvre to cover, or you call
> > in mortar fire on him.
>
> If you have a senior officer with info, men and the appropriate
> materiels at hand.

Junior officer -- since Vietnam, just about any platoon can call down fire
support, though it may take a while to arrive.

> Anyway, you're being too literal. A patrol stumbles across a sniper.
> Okay, so they don't go charging after him, they hunt cover and shoot to
> keep his head down while calling in support. Would THAT be how they'd
> operate?

More or less, I guess.

> If so, sniper-boy caps off a few grenades, the grunts stop shooting (so
> much) because now they're worried about being hit themselves and
> sniper-boy can get the hell out of there.

The grunts would put up as large a volume of fire as they can on the
sniper's suspected positions, in order to make the sniper keep his head
down. A few well-aimed shots from the sniper might make the grunts take
some casualties, but I doubt it'd be enough to make them stop firing, let
alone pull back.

--
Gurth@******.nl - http://www.xs4all.nl/~gurth/index.html
Send BIOS authors and hard drive manufacturers back to school!
-> NAGEE Editor * ShadowRN GridSec * Unofficial Shadowrun Guru <-
->The Plastic Warriors Page: http://shadowrun.html.com/plasticwarriors/<-
-> The New Character Mortuary: http://www.electricferret.com/mortuary/ <-

GC3.1: GAT/! d-(dpu) s:- !a>? C+(++)@ U P L E? W(++) N o? K- w+ O V? PS+
PE Y PGP- t(+) 5++ X++ R+++>$ tv+(++) b++@ DI? D+ G(++) e h! !r(---) y?
Incubated into the First Church of the Sqooshy Ball, 21-05-1998
Message no. 156
From: Gurth gurth@******.nl
Subject: Questions of great importance (Steve, Jon, RA:S people especially)
Date: Thu, 9 Sep 1999 12:29:48 +0200
According to Paul J. Adam, at 14:16 on 8 Sep 99, the word on
the street was...

> >Anyway, if you burn through a full SMG clip (30-odd rounds) on burst
> >fire and you need to reload and keep firing, I'd say you're probably
> >screwed anyway and it doesn't matter HOW much noise you make. Neh?
>
> Nope. Any idea how much ammo _real_ firefights get through?

I doubt most SR players do, with the way you can use a single clip in at
least ten firefights and still have a few rounds left in SR's game system.

(To tell the truth, I've never been in anything even resembling a real
firefight, but I have read too many accounts of them and looked at too
many pictures of soldiers in wartime not to get a good idea, I think :)

--
Gurth@******.nl - http://www.xs4all.nl/~gurth/index.html
Send BIOS authors and hard drive manufacturers back to school!
-> NAGEE Editor * ShadowRN GridSec * Unofficial Shadowrun Guru <-
->The Plastic Warriors Page: http://shadowrun.html.com/plasticwarriors/<-
-> The New Character Mortuary: http://www.electricferret.com/mortuary/ <-

GC3.1: GAT/! d-(dpu) s:- !a>? C+(++)@ U P L E? W(++) N o? K- w+ O V? PS+
PE Y PGP- t(+) 5++ X++ R+++>$ tv+(++) b++@ DI? D+ G(++) e h! !r(---) y?
Incubated into the First Church of the Sqooshy Ball, 21-05-1998
Message no. 157
From: Arclight arclight@*********.de
Subject: Questions of great importance (Steve, Jon, RA:S people especially)
Date: Thu, 9 Sep 1999 14:02:40 +0200
And finally, abortion_engine expressed himself by writing:

<snip>

> And hey, someone want to tell me what happens to this
> thousand-dollar watsis when you drop it in a mud puddle?

AFAIK it will fire after a short cleaning. It's
a Heckler&Koch, you know.

--
[arclight@*********.de]<><><><><><>[ICQ14322211]
Waiting to be contradicted :)
<><><><[http://www.datahaven.de/arclight]><><><>;
Message no. 158
From: Arclight arclight@*********.de
Subject: Questions of great importance (Steve, Jon, RA:S people especially)
Date: Thu, 9 Sep 1999 20:06:32 +0200
And finally, IronRaven expressed himself by writing:

> The sub-carbine is H&K, the launcher is made America (AAI, IIRC).

The carbine and GL are HK, ammunition is Dynamit Nobel,
the manufacturer of the optics and grenade programming module
escapes me for the moment.

--
[arclight@*********.de]<><><><><><>[ICQ14322211]
Vorsicht Ritchie, ein Hochhäus!! - Wer?
<><><><[http://www.datahaven.de/arclight]><><><>;
Message no. 159
From: Paul J. Adam Paul@********.demon.co.uk
Subject: Questions of great importance (Steve, Jon, RA:S people especially)
Date: Thu, 9 Sep 1999 17:26:55 +0100
In article <19990909012352.27097.rocketmail@******.mail.yahoo.com>,
Rand Ratinac <docwagon101@*****.com> writes
>> No, it's a very sniper-centric POV. No way would a sniper want to be
>that close to the enemy...
>
>No, Paul, what JAMES was discussing was unsniperish, except in a SWAT
>team or urban theatre situation. You're talking about something else.
>And you're right there. But if a sniper wants to carry a secondary
>weapon, would a pistol or SMG really be as good as a GL?

Better.

>AFAIK, those
>things don't have the range of a GL, so the GL allows the sniper to
>keep his distance moreso than the others.

A sniper can evade if the enemy's a couple of hundred yards away -
nobody's going to stand up and charge his position, he'll be well
camouflaged and he should have recced a bugout route that puts him in
dead ground.

A one-man band does _not_ stop to shoot it out with an infantry unit that
knows where he is: he'll be quickly pinned down by suppressive fire.


>> A GL needs _more_ aiming, not less: you need to estimate the range
>much more accurately, and allow much more for wind than with a rifle or
>SMG.
>
>Sorry, poor phrasing. Aiming is not such a concern if you want to
>DISSUADE pursuit. It is if you want to HIT pursuers.

_Sigh_ I'd personally be a damn sight more worried about the sniper's rifle
than about some wildly-aimed grenades.

>How hard is it to put a bunch of smoke grenades about 50 metres behind
>you and in a 20-odd metre row?

If that's all you want, have a couple of WP grenades taped to your web
gear. Throw them and evade behind that hot, IR-blocking smoke.

Again, a good sniper has an escape route planned.

>> Get your spotter to put the thumper on his rifle, if you need it.
>
>Again, fine for the military. Not so good in SR.

Why not? _Hire_ a spotter. Otherwise, you're in serious danger of getting
outflanked while you're peering through your scope.

>> Sure. It means he's out of rifle ammunition and now he's reloading
>his grenade launcher.
>
>So you're saying the sniper would stay put and hit the bad guys until
>he runs outta ammo.

No - the sniper would evade immediately, not stand and shoot it out. If
the enemy have your location, you've lost most of your advantage and
need to be elsewhere quickly.

>> Besides, in a military setting you don't send men running out at a
>sniper's position; you throw smoke and manoeuvre to cover, or you call
>in mortar fire on him.
>
>If you have a senior officer with info, men and the appropriate
>materiels at hand.

Section commanders can call in mortar fire. Every rifle platoon in the
British Army has a 51mm mortar of its own, too.

>Anyway, you're being too literal. A patrol stumbles
>across a sniper. Okay, so they don't go charging after him, they hunt
>cover and shoot to keep his head down while calling in support. Would
>THAT be how they'd operate?

Precisely.

>If so, sniper-boy caps off a few grenades, the grunts stop shooting (so
>much) because now they're worried about being hit themselves and
>sniper-boy can get the hell out of there.
>
>Does THAT make sense?

Nope. Why is "sniper boy" able to fire and move with eight men firing
assault rifles (and likely a few grenade launchers of their own) at him? If
one man firing a few grenades produces such paralysis, imagine two or
three men firing grenades (at a much less dispersed target) while the rest
of the section lay down rifle and LMG fire. You want to stick your head up
into _that_?


Sniper-boy, once under fire, slides back down the ridge, so he's out of
sight of the enemy, and gets out of Dodge or to his next position. He
doesn't stop to shoot it out with a force that outnumbers and outguns
him.

>*Doc' holds up a rabid rottweiler for Paul's inspection. "Well?"*

That's _much_ more like it.

--
Paul J. Adam
Message no. 160
From: abortion_engine abortion_engine@*******.com
Subject: Questions of great importance (Steve, Jon, RA:S people especially)
Date: Thu, 9 Sep 1999 15:53:39 -0400
> And finally, abortion_engine expressed himself by writing:
>
> <snip>
>
> > And hey, someone want to tell me what happens to this
> > thousand-dollar watsis when you drop it in a mud puddle?
>
> AFAIK it will fire after a short cleaning. It's
> a Heckler&Koch, you know.
>
Some days my H & K works fine after cleaning. In fact, most days. But it
takes longer than I'd like to clean it, and, well, my H & K doesn't have
BATTERIES.
Message no. 161
From: abortion_engine abortion_engine@*******.com
Subject: Questions of great importance (Steve, Jon, RA:S people especially)
Date: Thu, 9 Sep 1999 15:56:53 -0400
> According to Paul J. Adam, at 14:16 on 8 Sep 99, the word on
> the street was...
>
> > >Anyway, if you burn through a full SMG clip (30-odd rounds) on burst
> > >fire and you need to reload and keep firing, I'd say you're probably
> > >screwed anyway and it doesn't matter HOW much noise you make. Neh?
> >
> > Nope. Any idea how much ammo _real_ firefights get through?
>
> I doubt most SR players do, with the way you can use a single clip in at
> least ten firefights and still have a few rounds left in SR's game system.
>
> (To tell the truth, I've never been in anything even resembling a real
> firefight, but I have read too many accounts of them and looked at too
> many pictures of soldiers in wartime not to get a good idea, I think :)

I don't actually _know_ you, Gurth, but it seems, based on what I've read
that you've posted, that you probably have a pretty good idea.

BTW, is it just me, or is not enough made of suppressing fire in SR? One of
the most useful tools in many types of combat, IMO. Then again, it seems
like most of the FASA staff is too young to have been in any real wars.
Message no. 162
From: abortion_engine abortion_engine@*******.com
Subject: Questions of great importance (Steve, Jon, RA:S people especially)
Date: Thu, 9 Sep 1999 15:58:36 -0400
> At 12.29 09-09-99 +0200, you wrote:
> >The grunts would put up as large a volume of fire as they can on the
> >sniper's suspected positions, in order to make the sniper keep his head
>
> Sniper pack! Have a number of sniper teams covering an area, that can
> work indepently or can co-ordinate by radio for group ambushes. Nasty
when
> it is done right, but terrain has to be very special for you to be able to
> do it. You only hear one or two shots, but it sounds like it came from
six
> differnt places, and six guys go down. A half second latter, whie you are
> still going "****!!!!!!", six more guys.
> Either that, or one team fires, and then another to allow the first team
> to move, and so on. (One of the best reasons to give spotters rifles
> rather than carbines, but this is all offense with reduced defense, and
GLs
> are nice somethimes too.)
> And if you want to be real nasty, add a couple of MMGs and/or a single
> 60mm to the fray, but all dispursed. If you get successfully rushed, that
> element is screweded, but if done right, the target is being bit from so
> many different locations they can't think straight, and locations are
> mutually supporting. Kinda like hyenas killing a lion.
>
You're right; this requires very specialized terrain. But, if you have the
element of terrain and surprise, this sort of tactic is very effective. I
always like ambushes. More of them die than you. That's usually a good
thing.
Message no. 163
From: abortion_engine abortion_engine@*******.com
Subject: Questions of great importance (Steve, Jon, RA:S people especially)
Date: Thu, 9 Sep 1999 16:17:18 -0400
> > > Besides, in a military setting you don't send men running out at a
> > > sniper's position; you throw smoke and manoeuvre to cover, or you call
> > > in mortar fire on him.
> >
> > If you have a senior officer with info, men and the appropriate
> > materiels at hand.
>
> Junior officer -- since Vietnam, just about any platoon can call down fire
> support, though it may take a while to arrive.

Yes. Just about anyone can call down fire support now. [In US units, at
least. Don't know about anyone else anymore.] I've got the little orange
card right here.
Message no. 164
From: Arclight arclight@*********.de
Subject: Questions of great importance (Steve, Jon, RA:S people especially)
Date: Thu, 9 Sep 1999 23:39:13 +0200
And finally, abortion_engine expressed himself by writing:

> Some days my H & K works fine after cleaning. In fact, most days. But it
> takes longer than I'd like to clean it, and, well, my H & K doesn't have
> BATTERIES.

hmh... ok, herewith I admit that I have no field experience:

If you put your flashlight into the mud, does it work
after pulling it out and cleaning the lense? Or a GPS?
It uses electronics and batteries, so does it stop
working when dirty?

--
[arclight@*********.de]<><><><><><>[ICQ14322211]
All suspects are guilty, serious. Otherwise they
wouldn't be suspects, would they?
<><><><[http://www.datahaven.de/arclight]><><><>;
Message no. 165
From: Arclight arclight@*********.de
Subject: Questions of great importance (Steve, Jon, RA:S people especially)
Date: Thu, 9 Sep 1999 23:39:14 +0200
And finally, IronRaven expressed himself by writing:

> Team leader, I'm willing to bet, who is listed as AAI.

this is from a .html I have, sorry, don't know where
I got this from...

--- Start ---

Alliant Techsystems is responsible for total weapon
system integration, testing, engineering, and prototype demonstration.
This includes integrating the HE warhead and fuzing mechanism to ensure
that OICW performance and projectile accuracy objectives are achieved.

Contraves Brashear Systems Inc., of Pittsburgh, Penn., is
responsible for development of the FCS. The company has a worldwide
reputation as a designer, producer, and supplier of highly technical
integrated electro-optical systems.

Heckler and Koch (HK) GmbH and HK Inc., Sterling, Va., have
extensive weapon design, manufacturing, and customer service fielding
experience. Developing high-quality, lightweight, and superior weapons
is an HK "no compromise" tradition. [this IMO means they do carbine+GL]

Dynamit Nobel AG (DNAG) is responsible for the 5.56mm product
development. The company leads the industry in environmentally safe,
caseless, and combustible-cased small arms ammunition and also supports
HE propulsion efforts.

--- End ---


> I'm surprised- the
> drawings of the guts for the launcher don't have the "H&K look" to
them.
> (Don't ask me to describe it, it's a "gut" thing.)

The technology this weapon uses is really high-end
anyway, might be a reason. Both barrels are titanium shells
with steel inserts, for exampel.

--
[arclight@*********.de]<><><><><><>[ICQ14322211]
"It may not be war, but it sure as hell ain't peace"
Major General Steven Arnold - On Somalia
<><><><[http://www.datahaven.de/arclight]><><><>;
Message no. 166
From: Mike & Linda Frankl mlfrankl@***.com
Subject: Questions of great importance (Steve, Jon, RA:S people especially)
Date: Thu, 9 Sep 1999 18:59:29 -0400
Abortion_engine commented:
> BTW, is it just me, or is not enough made of suppressing fire in
> SR? One of
> the most useful tools in many types of combat, IMO. Then again, it seems
> like most of the FASA staff is too young to have been in any real wars.

The rules are there for it in FoF and I have my NPC's use it pretty
effectively. My players usually learn by example and then integrate it into
their methods.

The fastest way to get players to try out new tactics is to spook them with
it in combat once or twice.

;)

Smilin' Jack
Message no. 167
From: Rand Ratinac docwagon101@*****.com
Subject: Questions of great importance (Steve, Jon, RA:S people especially)
Date: Thu, 9 Sep 1999 22:18:48 -0700 (PDT)
> >the best situational awareness isn't going let the sniper spot each
and every danger each and every time.
>
> Use your ears and nose- you'd be amazed how much they give you.

*lol*

Not with MY nasal passages. :)

> >Yeah, that's cool, but you really only want to do that if they
haven't
>
> Notice that I said "real confident" in my possision. And I mean
REAL positive. As in, they can set a nuke off on it and I'll have a
hot flash, type confident.

Wow - so you mean never, then?

8-)

> >I suppose you could shoot radio-guy to prevent them from following
you and radioing coordinates, then bug out, but that isn't always going
to
>
> Not always, but tagging the RATELO is a good opening move. Him, and
the guy with the funny red target on his uniform.
> Kevin Dole, aka CyberRaven, aka IronRaven, aka Steel Tengu

I think my sarcasm interpreter chip is on the fritz. You talking about
the CO there? :)

Btw, this is just a general note. I give up. I'll never convince you
guys that putting a GL on a sniper rifle is a good idea.

But then, you're probably right. :)

Still (you knew there was one of those, didn't you?), I think that in
certain circumstances it could be a useful combination. Just can't
think of what those might be.

8-)

*Doc' wonders if it occurs to anyone else how much the above smiley
resembles Dilbert...*
==Doc'
(aka Mr. Freaky Big, Super-Dynamic Troll of Tomorrow)

.sig Sauer
__________________________________________________
Do You Yahoo!?
Bid and sell for free at http://auctions.yahoo.com
Message no. 168
From: Bruce gyro@********.co.za
Subject: Questions of great importance (Steve, Jon, RA:S people especially)
Date: Fri, 10 Sep 1999 10:20:45 +0200
<snip>
>> Not always, but tagging the RATELO is a good opening move. Him,
and
>the guy with the funny red target on his uniform.
>> Kevin Dole, aka CyberRaven, aka IronRaven, aka Steel Tengu
>
>I think my sarcasm interpreter chip is on the fritz. You talking
about
>the CO there? :)

The medico I think....
<snip>
>8-)
>
>*Doc' wonders if it occurs to anyone else how much the above smiley
>resembles Dilbert...*

More like his dog actually..
Message no. 169
From: abortion_engine abortion_engine@*******.com
Subject: Questions of great importance (Steve, Jon, RA:S people especially)
Date: Fri, 10 Sep 1999 05:52:38 -0400
> At 15.56 09-09-99 -0400, you wrote:
> >BTW, is it just me, or is not enough made of suppressing fire in SR? One
of
>
> Field os Fire, p78

I know. Trust me. I know. Still not enough.

> >like most of the FASA staff is too young to have been in any real wars.
>
> Interesting statement. Define "real war". That is like saying "low
> intensity conflict". I agree withe Marine who said "If I'm being shot at,
> it is high intensity." (Paraphrase, I don't remember the actual quote of
> the top of my head.)

Excellent point.
Message no. 170
From: abortion_engine abortion_engine@*******.com
Subject: Questions of great importance (Steve, Jon, RA:S people especially)
Date: Fri, 10 Sep 1999 05:57:18 -0400
> And finally, abortion_engine expressed himself by writing:
>
> > Some days my H & K works fine after cleaning. In fact, most days. But it
> > takes longer than I'd like to clean it, and, well, my H & K doesn't have
> > BATTERIES.
>
> hmh... ok, herewith I admit that I have no field experience:
>
> If you put your flashlight into the mud, does it work
> after pulling it out and cleaning the lense? Or a GPS?
> It uses electronics and batteries, so does it stop
> working when dirty?
>
MY flashlight works fine when you drop it in the mud, or hold it underwater.
But US military ISSUE flashlights frequently don't. ["Oh, you mean I've got
to screw it all the way on?"]

My GPS, for the record, stopped working the day I fell in the swamp. So it
isn't really a GPS now. It is a sort of bookend for my old 3-1/4 floppies.
But it was cheap. Really cheap. Like,
gee-I-don't-need-this-but-it's-so-cheap-I-think-I'll-buy-it cheap.
Message no. 171
From: Arclight arclight@*********.de
Subject: Questions of great importance (Steve, Jon, RA:S people especially)
Date: Fri, 10 Sep 1999 19:01:27 +0200
And finally, IronRaven expressed himself by writing:

<snip>

> No, the person with the red cross on his helmet. I have
> few compunctions about shooting medics.

Ugh, that's nasty...

--
[arclight@*********.de]<><><><><><>[ICQ14322211]
Vorsicht Ritchie, ein Hochhäus!! - Wer?
<><><><[http://www.datahaven.de/arclight]><><><>;
Message no. 172
From: Patrick Goodman remo@***.net
Subject: Questions of great importance (Steve, Jon, RA:S people especially)
Date: Fri, 10 Sep 1999 15:16:45 -0500
> No, the person with the red cross on his helmet. I have
> few compunctions about shooting medics.

So I guess the whole "honor" diatribe you went on a few weeks back was just
a scam too, eh?

Patrick
Message no. 173
From: Paul J. Adam Paul@********.demon.co.uk
Subject: Questions of great importance (Steve, Jon, RA:S people especially)
Date: Fri, 10 Sep 1999 23:10:58 +0100
In article <3.0.3.32.19990910171323.009b2cec@***.softhome.net>,
IronRaven <cyberraven@********.net> writes
> I know that sounds confusing. Basically, it depends on the medic, who
>they work for, and what they are doing. If they are being a good little
>corpsman, and carrying nothing more than a sidearm and some smoke, and just
>trying to help peole, fine. You carry the red cross and a rifle, you
>become a probable target. You fire that rifle at me or my forces, and you
>are a target.

And you know what? That's entirely in accordance with the Laws of Armed
Conflict I was taught. A Red Cross/Red Crescent carries obligations as well
as protections. Unarmed medics are off-limits: "medical personnel" who
are active combatants are fair game. Hospitals are to be protected: but if
they've got some AA guns on the roof they forfeit that protection.

And so it goes.



--
Paul J. Adam
Message no. 174
From: Paul J. Adam Paul@********.demon.co.uk
Subject: Questions of great importance (Steve, Jon, RA:S people especially)
Date: Fri, 10 Sep 1999 23:12:18 +0100
In article <3.0.3.32.19990910161008.009aeeb8@***.softhome.net>,
IronRaven <cyberraven@********.net> writes
> Outside of Europe, the US, Japan, the Commonwealth and maybe Isreal,
>SoKor
>and Singapore, the "laws of war" aren't really taught. Russian and Chinese
>troops aren't told, based off of the debrief data I've seen from defectors,
>not to shoot things with red crosses on them.

fUSSR troops weren't briefed "don't shoot at red crosses", from the data I
got.


--
Paul J. Adam
Message no. 175
From: Gurth gurth@******.nl
Subject: Questions of great importance (Steve, Jon, RA:S people especially)
Date: Sat, 11 Sep 1999 20:32:51 +0200
According to Graht, at 17:02 on 9 Sep 99, the word on
the street was...

> /The grunts would put up as large a volume of fire as they can on the
> /sniper's suspected positions, in order to make the sniper keep his head
> /down. A few well-aimed shots from the sniper might make the grunts take
> /some casualties, but I doubt it'd be enough to make them stop firing, let
> /alone pull back.
>
> I'm suddenly reminded of a scene near the end of the movie "Full Metal
> Jacket" where a platoon puts up a *hellacious* amount of fire in response
> to a sniper. If you haven't seen the movie, I highly recommend it.

Good example, and also a good example of what it would do against a well-
positioned sniper, at least in an urban area.

Still, there is a reason US troops in Vietnam used to do "mad minutes"
just before sunset -- they'd fire all weapons into the brush around their
camp for about a minute; it'd waste a hell of a lot of ammunition, but
usually it was enough to convince any NLF or PAVN snipers not to bother.

--
Gurth@******.nl - http://www.xs4all.nl/~gurth/index.html
Send BIOS authors and hard drive manufacturers back to school!
-> NAGEE Editor * ShadowRN GridSec * Unofficial Shadowrun Guru <-
->The Plastic Warriors Page: http://shadowrun.html.com/plasticwarriors/<-
-> The New Character Mortuary: http://www.electricferret.com/mortuary/ <-

GC3.1: GAT/! d-(dpu) s:- !a>? C+(++)@ U P L E? W(++) N o? K- w+ O V? PS+
PE Y PGP- t(+) 5++ X++ R+++>$ tv+(++) b++@ DI? D+ G(++) e h! !r(---) y?
Incubated into the First Church of the Sqooshy Ball, 21-05-1998
Message no. 176
From: Gurth gurth@******.nl
Subject: Questions of great importance (Steve, Jon, RA:S people especially)
Date: Sat, 11 Sep 1999 20:32:51 +0200
According to abortion_engine, at 15:56 on 9 Sep 99, the word on
the street was...

> BTW, is it just me, or is not enough made of suppressing fire in SR? One of
> the most useful tools in many types of combat, IMO.

Not in the way SR's rules use it. One bullet that hits is not really
dangerous from most weapons in SR, at least not if you've got decent armor
and Body (which shadowrunners and their opposition do, in my experience),
and the suppressive fire rules cause very few hits...

I'm using a house rule that says every success means one bullet hits,
rather than every two successes, and it helps make suppressive fire more
attractive, but still most players for some reason prefer to aim and shoot
full-auto instead.

--
Gurth@******.nl - http://www.xs4all.nl/~gurth/index.html
Send BIOS authors and hard drive manufacturers back to school!
-> NAGEE Editor * ShadowRN GridSec * Unofficial Shadowrun Guru <-
->The Plastic Warriors Page: http://shadowrun.html.com/plasticwarriors/<-
-> The New Character Mortuary: http://www.electricferret.com/mortuary/ <-

GC3.1: GAT/! d-(dpu) s:- !a>? C+(++)@ U P L E? W(++) N o? K- w+ O V? PS+
PE Y PGP- t(+) 5++ X++ R+++>$ tv+(++) b++@ DI? D+ G(++) e h! !r(---) y?
Incubated into the First Church of the Sqooshy Ball, 21-05-1998

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