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Message no. 1
From: shadowrn@*********.com (Wally the Intrepid)
Subject: Questions, quandries, quagmires
Date: Sat Dec 8 09:35:01 2001
Hi all. Had a fun game last night, but more questions arose from it,
again.

Just to clarify SR3's pp. 176 & 191 info: In astral combat, a Weapon
Focus adds its Force to the wielder's Charisma for the damage code, and also
to the wielder's Sorcery (for lack of a superior skill) for the attack
value. And its base astral damage code is the same that it has on the
Physical. Yes?
In other words, an elf magician with an 8 Charisma and a Sorcery skill
of 6, wielding a Weapon Focus (Sword) - 5, does 15M damage wielding it with
a Sorcery skill of 11?? (Force - 5 Sword Focus base damage = CHA+2+5(M) If
this is so, jeez, this is gonna get nasty!
Oh! Also, can the Weapon Focus-wielding magician still choose to do Stun
damage, astrally?


About Possession, specifically a Free (Hearth) Spirit's use of it: Is
the term "astrally active" the same as the term "Awakened"? If so, why
do
the authors not just use the latter term which is more commonly used?
Anyways, has it always been the rule, throughout the various versions of SR,
that -only- astrally active targets may be Possessed? Mundanes can never be
Possessed in any way, shape or form? When said spirit Possesses an unwilling
(or willing for that matter) magician, does it get access to that magician's
spells, and if so, would it cast them using the magician's (possibly
superior) Sorcery skill. Can it benefit from, and use, the magician's bonded
and active foci? If so, can it activate the magician's inactive, but bonded,
foci?
What happens when a possessed magician tries to traverse a magical
barrier?


Oh, BTW: as per your feedback all this week, our Snake Shaman fought her
astral battle without beneit of either Armor or Increased Reflexes - 3
spells. Her opponent did have Astral Armor though, but thankfully, she still
prevailed (Hmm, possibly because of the magician having to Sustain that
spell.) So thanks very much, as always,

--Wally
http://home.earthlink.net/~stormknight/
Contact me on ICQ at UIN# 163454
Message no. 2
From: shadowrn@*********.com (Rand Ratinac)
Subject: Questions, quandries, quagmires
Date: Sat Dec 8 10:25:01 2001
> About Possession, specifically a Free (Hearth)
Spirit's use of it: Is the term "astrally active" the
same as the term "Awakened"? If so, why do the authors
not just use the latter term which is more commonly
used?
> --Wally

Wally, this is the only one of your questions I have
time to answer before hitting the sack (as I'd have to
look up most of the others :) ). Astrally active means
active on the astral plane, not awakened. So if you're
dual natured, astrally perceiving or astrally
projecting (or if you're a spirit or other native of
the astral realms), then you're astrally active.

Btw, I think you have the weapon focus rules down.

====Doc'
(aka Mr. Freaky Big, Super-Dynamic Troll of Tomorrow, aka Doc'booner, aka Doc' Vader)

.sig Sauer

If you SMELL what the DOC' is COOKING!!!

________________________________________________________________
Nokia 5510 looks weird sounds great.
Go to http://uk.promotions.yahoo.com/nokia/ discover and win it!
The competition ends 16 th of December 2001.
Message no. 3
From: shadowrn@*********.com (Wally the Intrepid)
Subject: Questions, quandries, quagmires
Date: Sat Dec 8 15:45:00 2001
----- Original Message -----
From: "Rand Ratinac" <docwagon101@*****.com>
Sent: Saturday, December 08, 2001 8:25 AM

> > About Possession, specifically a Free (Hearth)
> Spirit's use of it: Is the term "astrally active" the
> same as the term "Awakened"? If so, why do the authors
> not just use the latter term which is more commonly
> used?
> > --Wally
>
> Wally, this is the only one of your questions I have
> time to answer before hitting the sack (as I'd have to
> look up most of the others :) ). Astrally active means
> active on the astral plane, not awakened. So if you're
> dual natured, astrally perceiving or astrally
> projecting (or if you're a spirit or other native of
> the astral realms), then you're astrally active.

Um, OK, but then what does Awakened mean? I thought Awakened was the
same as "astrally active", ie. a magician. Is this not true? *rubbing
temples*

> Btw, I think you have the weapon focus rules down.

Great! Thanks, Doc.

--Wally
http://home.earthlink.net/~stormknight/
Contact me on ICQ at UIN# 163454
Message no. 4
From: shadowrn@*********.com (BD)
Subject: Questions, quandries, quagmires
Date: Sat Dec 8 15:55:02 2001
> Um, OK, but then what does Awakened mean? I thought Awakened was the same
as "astrally active", ie. a magician. Is this not true? *rubbing temples*
>

Awakened is being magical in some way: mages are Awakened, as are Hell
Hounds, as are Talis Cats. Consider the definition of Awakened to be: a
creature (including humans) who have some magical ability(ies). Astrally
Active means what Doc' said: you're projecting, perceiving, etc. You can
be Awakened and not be astrally active, but you can't be astrally active
and not be Awakened. Get it? :)

====-Boondocker

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Message no. 5
From: shadowrn@*********.com (Wally the Intrepid)
Subject: Questions, quandries, quagmires
Date: Sat Dec 8 16:05:00 2001
----- Original Message -----
From: "BD" <l3oondocker@*****.com>
Sent: Saturday, December 08, 2001 1:58 PM

> > Um, OK, but then what does Awakened mean? I thought Awakened was the
same
> as "astrally active", ie. a magician. Is this not true? *rubbing temples*
> >
>
> Awakened is being magical in some way: mages are Awakened, as are Hell
> Hounds, as are Talis Cats. Consider the definition of Awakened to be: a
> creature (including humans) who have some magical ability(ies). Astrally
> Active means what Doc' said: you're projecting, perceiving, etc. You can
> be Awakened and not be astrally active, but you can't be astrally active
> and not be Awakened. Get it? :)

Ah-HA!! Thank-you, good neighbor! Excellent definition. *bow*

--Wally
http://home.earthlink.net/~stormknight/
Contact me on ICQ at UIN# 163454
Message no. 6
From: shadowrn@*********.com (Bira)
Subject: Questions, quandries, quagmires
Date: Sat Dec 8 17:20:00 2001
On Sat, 8 Dec 2001 13:48:41 -0700
"Wally the Intrepid" <stormknight@*********.net> wrote:

> Um, OK, but then what does Awakened mean? I thought Awakened was the
> same as "astrally active", ie. a magician. Is this not true? *rubbing
> temples*

No, "Awakened" is someone or something able to use magic, that
is, _magically_ active. Some Awakened characters/critters can become
_astrally_ active, e.g. present in astral space. A full mage is astrally
active when he is engaged in either astral perception or astral projection.

--
Bira -- SysOp da Shadowland.BR
http://www.shadowland.com.br
Redator de Shadowrun da RPG em Revista
http://www.rpgemrevista.f2s.com
Message no. 7
From: shadowrn@*********.com (Rand Ratinac)
Subject: Questions, quandries, quagmires
Date: Sat Dec 8 20:45:01 2001
> > Wally, this is the only one of your questions I
have time to answer before hitting the sack (as I'd
have to look up most of the others :) ). Astrally
active means active on the astral plane, not awakened.
So if you're dual natured, astrally perceiving or
astrally projecting (or if you're a spirit or other
native of the astral realms), then you're astrally
active.
>
> Um, OK, but then what does Awakened mean? I
thought Awakened was the same as "astrally active",
ie. a magician. Is this not true? *rubbing temples*

No no no...check what I said again. Awakened means
"capable of magic of some sort, or possessing a
magical nature". Spirits, dragons, hellhounds and
other such critters are awakened. So are the various
types of mages and adepts. Metahuman races are not, by
definition, awakened, although individual specimens
can be mages or adepts and thus be awakened.

Okay? Got that?

Now, like I explained about, astrally active means
"active on the astral plane". This is a condition that
being awakened ALLOWS you to satisfy, but just being
awakened does NOT automatically make you astrally
active. So a mage or adept who can astrally perceive,
or a mage who can astrally project can BECOME astrally
active. Until they start perceiving or projecting,
however, they are NOT astrally active. They are simply
awakened. Dual-natured beings are ALWAYS astrally
active and awakened, because they're always dealing
with both the astral and physical plane. Spirits are
always either dual-natured (present on both planes) or
present on the astral plane, but not on the physical.
They can't simply be on the physical plane. (They can,
however, go away to a metaplane.) When they're around
the physical or astral plane, however, they're always
astrally active.

Look at it this way - being awakened is a state of
being (you either are or you aren't and you can't
suddenly stop being awakened, unless you get too much
cyber, or take too much damage or the like), being
astrally active is something you DO (perceiving,
projecting etc.).

Here's something that might help. Magical foci.
They're not subject to possession, because they're not
alive. Nor are they awakened (only living beings are
classed as awakened or not). They can, however, be
astrally active. If they're on, they're astrally
active. They have a link to the astral plane that can
be attacked by beings that are present on the astral
plane. If they're off, they're not astrally active and
they're not vulnerable to attack from the astral
plane.

Last thing that might help - you're only vulnerable to
attack from the astral if you're astrally active. But
you can be awakened all the time. Like I said, being
awakened simply means you can do magic, or are
magical, nothing more. So have a look in the magic
section of SR3 - that describes what conditions you
have to satisfy to be vulnerable to attack from the
astral plane. Satisfying those conditions means that
at that particular point in time, you're astrally
active.

This is my EXHAUSTIVE explanation - you probably got
it about halfway through, but here it all is anyway.
;)

> > Btw, I think you have the weapon focus rules down.
>
> Great! Thanks, Doc.
>
> --Wally

Remember, I said I think. ;)

====Doc'
(aka Mr. Freaky Big, Super-Dynamic Troll of Tomorrow, aka Doc'booner, aka Doc' Vader)

.sig Sauer

If you SMELL what the DOC' is COOKING!!!

________________________________________________________________
Nokia 5510 looks weird sounds great.
Go to http://uk.promotions.yahoo.com/nokia/ discover and win it!
The competition ends 16 th of December 2001.
Message no. 8
From: shadowrn@*********.com (Rand Ratinac)
Subject: Questions, quandries, quagmires
Date: Sat Dec 8 21:05:01 2001
<snipt!(TM)>

Wally, dude - sorry for unintentionally implying brain
death on your part. ;) Just realised that I never
explained what awakened was, just astrally active.
Oops. Guess I'm the brain dead one. ;)

====Doc'
(aka Mr. Freaky Big, Super-Dynamic Troll of Tomorrow, aka Doc'booner, aka Doc' Vader)

.sig Sauer

If you SMELL what the DOC' is COOKING!!!

________________________________________________________________
Nokia 5510 looks weird sounds great.
Go to http://uk.promotions.yahoo.com/nokia/ discover and win it!
The competition ends 16 th of December 2001.
Message no. 9
From: shadowrn@*********.com (Damion Milliken)
Subject: Questions, quandries, quagmires
Date: Mon Dec 10 06:40:01 2001
Wally the Intrepid writes:

> Just to clarify SR3's pp. 176 & 191 info: In astral combat, a Weapon Focus
> adds its Force to the wielder's Charisma for the damage code, and also to
> the wielder's Sorcery (for lack of a superior skill) for the attack value.
> And its base astral damage code is the same that it has on the Physical.
> Yes?

I'm not so sure about the adding to Sorcery bit, actually. I thought that
weapon foci added their Force to the appropriate Armed Combat skill. Like,
for example, a weapon focus sword added it's Rating to your Edged Weapons
skill. I also always thought that you needed to use the appropriate weapon
skill to attack with a weapon focus, whether on the astral or not. The using
Sorcery option, I thought, was for suckers who didn't have either a weapon
focus and the ability to use it, or decent skills in unarmed combat.

> Oh! Also, can the Weapon Focus-wielding magician still choose to do Stun
> damage, astrally?

I thought that weapon foci did their normal damage on the astral. Thus, a
weapon focus club would be Stun. A weapon focus knife, Physical.

> Mundanes can never be Possessed in any way, shape or form?

A spirit may use the "Astral Gateway" Power to draw an unwilling mundane
into astral space and then attempt to Possess them.

> When said spirit Possesses an unwilling (or willing for that matter)
> magician, does it get access to that magician's spells, and if so, would it
> cast them using the magician's (possibly superior) Sorcery skill.

Yes. The rules specifically say this. In the case of unwilling possession,
though, there is a TN penalty for using the possessee's skills (+2 I think).

> Can it benefit from, and use, the magician's bonded and active foci? If
> so, can it activate the magician's inactive, but bonded, foci?

I'd say yes to both, but I don't think it's actually covered in the rules.

> What happens when a possessed magician tries to traverse a magical barrier?

They are treated much the same as a dual natured being. Thus, pretty much,
they are blocked. The "fast interaction" rules in MitS may be useful, here,
as they may separate the astral and physical components, and thus unpossess
the target.

--
Damion Milliken University of Wollongong
Unofficial Shadowrun Guru E-mail: dam01@***.edu.au
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Message no. 10
From: shadowrn@*********.com (Chris Maxfield)
Subject: Questions, quandries, quagmires
Date: Mon Dec 10 08:30:01 2001
Records show that at 22:40 on Monday 10/12/01, Damion Milliken scribbled:
>Wally the Intrepid writes:
>
>> Just to clarify SR3's pp. 176 & 191 info: In astral combat, a Weapon Focus
>> adds its Force to the wielder's Charisma for the damage code, and also to
>> the wielder's Sorcery (for lack of a superior skill) for the attack value.
>> And its base astral damage code is the same that it has on the Physical.
>> Yes?

I'm afraid the weapon focus does not adds its Force to the wielder's
Charisma (or Strength in physical combat) in astral combat i.e. versus
spirits, projecting magicians or dual natured creatures/people. It only
adds its Force in dice to the appropriate skill test. The only exception to
this rule is when the magician attacks a non-intelligent astral object. In
this case, it is an opposed test between the magician's Charisma and the
astral object's Force, and half the weapon focus's Force is added to the
magician's Charisma only for the purpose of this particular opposed test.

>I'm not so sure about the adding to Sorcery bit, actually. I thought that
>weapon foci added their Force to the appropriate Armed Combat skill. Like,
>for example, a weapon focus sword added it's Rating to your Edged Weapons
>skill. I also always thought that you needed to use the appropriate weapon
>skill to attack with a weapon focus, whether on the astral or not. The using
>Sorcery option, I thought, was for suckers who didn't have either a weapon
>focus and the ability to use it, or decent skills in unarmed combat.

The wording on p174 suggests to me that the weapon focus can be used with
Sorcery skill. It says "The character my attack using Armed Combat if armed
with a weapon focus, Unarmed Combat if not, or Sorcery in place of either
skill."

The "in place of either skill" bit seems conclusive to me. Sorcery Skill
rules! :-)

Chris
Message no. 11
From: shadowrn@*********.com (Lars Wagner Hansen)
Subject: Questions, quandries, quagmires
Date: Fri Dec 21 16:40:01 2001
From: "Wally the Intrepid" <stormknight@*********.net>
> Just to clarify SR3's pp. 176 & 191 info: In astral combat, a Weapon
> Focus adds its Force to the wielder's Charisma for the damage code, and also
> to the wielder's Sorcery (for lack of a superior skill) for the attack
> value. And its base astral damage code is the same that it has on the
> Physical. Yes?

It add its force to appropriate combat skill, without any doubt. Page 191 is
very clear on this point. This bonus is added both in physical combat and astral
combat. That could be Clubs, Cyber-Implant Combat, Edged Weapons, Pole
Arms/Staffs, Whips, Oral Strike or Chainsaw depending on the weapon used, or you
could use Sorcery for any weapon on the astral plane.

Page 191 is rather vague on the amount of damage done by a weapon focus. As I
read it it give its base damage based on the weapon in both physical and astral
combat.

A sword would give (STR+2)M, a knife (STR)L and a pole arm (STR+3)S, and a fork
(STR-1)L. In astral combat you substitute STR with CHA.

The tricky part is actually the table on page 176. According to this table armed
combat in astral space gives "(Charisma) + Weapon Focus Damage". But what
exactly is this, it dosn't make any sense.

How should this be understood?

In SR2 a weapon focus gave (Charisma+Force/2)M no matter what type of weapon it
was. It might be wierd that a magic fork (force 1) would do that same amount of
damage as a magic katana (force 1), but at least you couldn't misunderstand the
rules.


> In other words, an elf magician with an 8 Charisma and a Sorcery skill
> of 6, wielding a Weapon Focus (Sword) - 5, does 15M damage wielding it with
> a Sorcery skill of 11?? (Force - 5 Sword Focus base damage = CHA+2+5(M) If
> this is so, jeez, this is gonna get nasty!

Only if read the way you read the table: "Add force to Charisma, base on weapons
damage."

But it is also expensive!

It will cost you (Reach+1)x100K+Forcex90K nuyen = 2x100K+5x90Ke0.000 nuyen,
and (3+Reach)xForce = 4x5 = 20 karma to bond it.

> Oh! Also, can the Weapon Focus-wielding magician still choose to do Stun
> damage, astrally?

Yes. P. 176 says so straight out.

Lars
--
Lars Wagner Hansen, Jagtvej 11, 4180 Sorø
l-hansen@*****.tele.dk http://home4.inet.tele.dk/l-hansen
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