Logs for ShadowRN and Associated Mailing Lists

From:	jhm@*****.com (J Hulley-Miller)
Subject:	Quickened spells and Horrors.
Date:	Fri, 03 May 1996 02:43:34 -0400

Message no. 1 Greetings,

Out of curiousity, would someone with Quickened spells attract Horrors (as
opposed to those without).

jhm

--
J Hulley-Miller <jhm@*****.com>
____ <fidonet#1:107/330>
\/\/ "Human nature is never so weak as in a bookstore" - Henry Ward Beecher

From:	Tim Serpas <wretch@**.com>
Subject:	Re: Quickened spells and Horrors.
Date:	Fri, 3 May 1996 02:24:30 -0500 (CDT)

Message no. 2 On Fri, 3 May 1996, J Hulley-Miller wrote:

> Out of curiousity, would someone with Quickened spells attract Horrors (as
> opposed to those without).

Horrors? Never heard of them. They have something to do with magic?

(Tongue firmly planted in cheek)
Tim Serpas
wretch@**.com

From:	"Gurth" <gurth@******.nl>
Subject:	Re: Quickened spells and Horrors.
Date:	Fri, 3 May 1996 11:36:14 +0100

Message no. 3 J Hulley-Miller said on 2:43/ 3 May 96...

> Out of curiousity, would someone with Quickened spells attract Horrors (as
> opposed to those without).

If they were around, they probably would... Since there are hardly any in
the world just yet, I don't think you should worry about walking around
with quickened spells.

Unless of course your GM intends to send you up against Horrors :)

--
Gurth@******.nl - http://www.xs4all.nl/~gurth/index.html
I'm tired of this shit... All this talk about strife...
-> NERPS Project Leader & Unofficial Shadowrun Guru <-
-> The Character Mortuary: http://huizen.dds.nl/~mortuary/mortuary.html <-

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From:	"Mark Steedman" <M.J.Steedman@***.rgu.ac.uk>
Subject:	Re: Quickened spells and Horrors.
Date:	Fri, 3 May 1996 10:56:08 GMT

Message no. 4 Tim Serpas writes
>
>
> Horrors? Never heard of them. They have something to do with magic?
>
Horrors (ED term) AKA 'the Enemy'.
Yes they sure would be attracted to quickened spells if there were
any of the things about. However given that there might be a half
dozen Horrors through so far (they being big nasty magical threat on
a scale beyond bugs) there are better targets than odd mages with
quickened spells.

Mark

From:	"Mark Steedman" <M.J.Steedman@***.rgu.ac.uk>
Subject:	Re: Quickened spells and Horrors.
Date:	Fri, 3 May 1996 11:17:57 GMT

Message no. 5 Gurth writes
>
> If they were around, they probably would... Since there are hardly any in
> the world just yet, I don't think you should worry about walking around
> with quickened spells.
>
> Unless of course your GM intends to send you up against Horrors :)
>
I'd still be careful. Unmasked quickening virtually writes 'i'm
initiate' all over the astral plane, may or may not (GM depending)
allow the 'hey guys grounding fireball!!' and is a nice target for
dispelling etc. So regardless Horrors are the least of your worries
about this, anyway once the horror gets LOS most have a nice power
called Horror mark that make the quesion 'do you have active astral
links' a moot point, like it doesn't worry about it. Of course
problem one is opposition identification, if you have players that
are merrily convinced the things a bug or something it really doesn't
matter they won't get scarred of what they don't know about :)

Mark

From:	"Sascha Pabst" <Sascha.Pabst@**********.Uni-Oldenburg.DE>
Subject:	Re: Quickened spells and Horrors.
Date:	Fri, 3 May 1996 19:05:03 +0200

Message no. 6 At 10:56 Uhr 3.5.1996, Mark Steedman wrote:
>Tim Serpas writes
>> Horrors? Never heard of them. They have something to do with magic?

>Horrors (ED term) AKA 'the Enemy'.
>Yes [... snip]

*sigh*
Sascha

--
+---___---------+----------------------------------------+--------------------+
| / / _______ | Jhary-a-Conel aka Sascha Pabst |The one who does not|
| / /_/ ____/ |Sascha.Pabst@**********.Uni-Oldenburg.de| learn from history |
| \___ __/ | | is bound to live |
|==== \_/ ======| *Wearing hats is just a way of life* | through it again. |
|LOGOUT FASCISM!| - Me | |
+------------- http://www.informatik.uni-oldenburg.de/~jhary -----------------+

From:	"Randy Nickel (General)" <a-randyn@*********.com>
Subject:	RE: Quickened spells and Horrors.
Date:	Fri, 3 May 1996 11:39:30 -0700

Message no. 7 Greetings,

Out of curiousity, would someone with Quickened spells attract Horrors
(as
opposed to those without).

I am sure someone has answered this but I will also.

Horrors are almost as attracted to magic as they are strong emotions.
Quickened Spells should be just as enticing.

Randy Nickel

From:	jhm@*****.com (J Hulley-Miller)
Subject:	Quickened spells and Horrors.
Date:	Sat, 04 May 1996 14:30:21 -0400

Message no. 8 Greetings,

03 May 96 11:36, "Gurth" <gurth@******.nl> wrote:

>G> If they were around, they probably would... Since there are hardly any
>G> in the world just yet, I don't think you should worry about walking
>G> around with quickened spells.

>From the way things are going in the books, FASA is going to introduce them to
the world pretty soon...

jhm

--
J Hulley-Miller <jhm@*****.com>
____ <fidonet#1:107/330>
\/\/ "Human nature is never so weak as in a bookstore" - Henry Ward Beecher

From:	bqtech1@***.pipeline.com (Andrew W. Ragland)
Subject:	Re: Quickened spells and Horrors.
Date:	Sat, 4 May 1996 19:53:28 -0400

Message no. 9 On May 04, 1996 14:30:21, 'jhm@*****.com (J Hulley-Miller)' wrote:

>From the way things are going in the books, FASA is going to introduce
them to
>the world pretty soon...

And the survey says: BZZT! Thanks for playing.

FASA has announced that they're not bringing the Horrors into the SR
universe any time in the near future. Read Black Madonna.

--
Andrew W. Ragland, Product Support Manager, R & M BioMetrics / BioQuant
raglan45@*****.mmc.edu *** bqtech1@***.pipeline.com
GoTW!4)Au!3( TM(An) B0/32Bk cGR{BR}p+4BM PPrSaG V++s M++p2wD ZGo(NrGnCl)
C+3P2e a33 n*O b-:+D H193 g+* m-3 w++T r++E D-% h+ S* k++* Rm SmNn N0689n1w
LusTN+ HzMc2p4

From:	"Gurth" <gurth@******.nl>
Subject:	Re: Quickened spells and Horrors.
Date:	Sun, 5 May 1996 12:16:09 +0100

Message no. 10 J Hulley-Miller said on 14:30/ 4 May 96...

> >G> If they were around, they probably would... Since there are hardly any
> >G> in the world just yet, I don't think you should worry about walking
> >G> around with quickened spells.
>
>From the way things are going in the books, FASA is going to introduce them to
> the world pretty soon...

Erm, not any longer... As was explained on this list by Steve Kenson a
month or so ago, Carl Sargent liked the EI (Elven Illuminati) and Horrors
a lot, so he was planning to take SR further in that direction. Then he
decided he didn't want to be SR line developer after all. Mike Mulvihill
took over from there, and as far as we know he wants to take SR in a
different direction -- away from the "Horrors are coming/immortal elves
rule the world" storyline of the past few years.

That doesn't mean they won't be there any longer, they just won't be as
prominent as they were (or so we were told :)

--
Gurth@******.nl - http://www.xs4all.nl/~gurth/index.html
It's superficial progress, they call it liberation.
-> NERPS Project Leader & Unofficial Shadowrun Guru <-
-> The Character Mortuary: http://huizen.dds.nl/~mortuary/mortuary.html <-

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From:	jhm@*****.com (J Hulley-Miller)
Subject:	Quickened spells and Horrors.
Date:	Sun, 05 May 1996 19:34:56 -0400

Message no. 11 Greetings,

05 May 96 12:16, "Gurth" <gurth@******.nl> wrote:

>G> Mike Mulvihill took over from there, and as far as we know he wants
>G> to take SR in a different direction -- away from the "Horrors are
>G> coming/immortal elves rule the world" storyline of the past few
>G> years.

That doesnt make me happy... I rather liked the way things were going. Where
does Mulvihill intend to take things ?

jhm

--
J Hulley-Miller <jhm@*****.com>
____ <fidonet#1:107/330>
\/\/ "Human nature is never so weak as in a bookstore" - Henry Ward Beecher

From:	Ken <kwhorner@*******.edu>
Subject:	Re: Quickened spells and Horrors.
Date:	Mon, 6 May 1996 11:37:04 -0700 (PDT)

Message no. 12 On Mon, 6 May 1996, Gurth wrote:

> J Hulley-Miller said on 19:34/ 5 May 96...
>
> > >G> Mike Mulvihill took over from there, and as far as we know he wants
> > >G> to take SR in a different direction -- away from the "Horrors are
> > >G> coming/immortal elves rule the world" storyline of the past few
> > >G> years.
> >
> > That doesnt make me happy... I rather liked the way things were going.
>
> That probably makes you a minority group on this list. Most people here
> have seen enough about immortal elves to last a lifetime :)
>
And if your an immortal elf, that would be an eternity........ ;)

Nutcracker

From:	Matti Aistrich <aistrich@********.hkkk.fi>
Subject:	Re: Quickened spells and Horrors.
Date:	Tue, 7 May 1996 10:35:25 +0300 (EET DST)

Message no. 13 On Mon, 6 May 1996, Peter David Boddy wrote:

> As a mage with quickened spells on him/her, I'd have to say that there are
> more pressing things to worry about than Horrors. Namely other mages
> (which are a lot more common) who will target your quickened spell from
> astral space, or the fact that the quickened spell adds a little to your

Yes! Let's start an argument on whether you can ground through quickened
spells or not! Something original for a change! Something never before
discussed!

---------------------------------------------
: Perfect is : Matti M. Aistrich :
: only just : :
: good enough! : aistrich@********.hkkk.fi :
---------------------------------------------
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From:	"Sascha Pabst" <Sascha.Pabst@**********.Uni-Oldenburg.DE>
Subject:	Re: Quickened spells and Horrors.
Date:	Tue, 7 May 1996 11:52:18 +0200

Message no. 14 At 9:35 Uhr 7.05.96, Matti Aistrich wrote:
>On Mon, 6 May 1996, Peter David Boddy wrote:
>> As a mage with quickened spells on him/her, I'd have to say that there are
>> more pressing things to worry about than Horrors. Namely other mages
>> (which are a lot more common) who will target your quickened spell from
>> astral space, or the fact that the quickened spell adds a little to your
>
>Yes! Let's start an argument on whether you can ground through quickened
>spells or not! Something original for a change! Something never before
>discussed!

*sigh* Read it: Attacking the quickened spell (to break it). Peter obviously
DID know what he wrote :-)

Sascha

--
+---___---------+----------------------------------------+--------------------+
| / / _______ | Jhary-a-Conel aka Sascha Pabst |The one who does not|
| / /_/ ____/ |Sascha.Pabst@**********.Uni-Oldenburg.de| learn from history |
| \___ __/ | | is bound to live |
|==== \_/ ======| *Wearing hats is just a way of life* | through it again. |
|LOGOUT FASCISM!| - Me | |
+------------- http://www.informatik.uni-oldenburg.de/~jhary -----------------+

From:	Peter David Boddy <pdboddy@****.carleton.ca>
Subject:	Re: Quickened spells and Horrors.
Date:	Tue, 7 May 96 11:26:47 EDT

Message no. 15 Sascha Pabst writes:
>
> At 9:35 Uhr 7.05.96, Matti Aistrich wrote:
> >On Mon, 6 May 1996, Peter David Boddy wrote:
> >> As a mage with quickened spells on him/her, I'd have to say that there are
> >> more pressing things to worry about than Horrors. Namely other mages
> >> (which are a lot more common) who will target your quickened spell from
> >> astral space, or the fact that the quickened spell adds a little to your
> >
> >Yes! Let's start an argument on whether you can ground through quickened
> >spells or not! Something original for a change! Something never before
> >discussed!
>
> *sigh* Read it: Attacking the quickened spell (to break it). Peter obviously
> DID know what he wrote :-)
>
> Sascha

Thank you Sascha:) Another thing to add to the Quickened Spell/Horror
argument. If you are worried about someone attacking your quickened
spells, what about your magical weapons focus, power foci, fetishes,
elementals who owe you favours, your hermetic circle/shamanic lodge, etc.?
Honestly, if you are going to worry about every little thing, you are going
to end up (your character , that is) a wimpering, crying, curled up in the
corner mage. Every magical occurance leaves a trace in astral space.
There are probably hundreds of magical occurances happening at any given
moment, surely your mage can hide his doing's in all that. My point is,
there are times when you have to be paranoid, and times you don't. Forget
the Horrors, worry about other mages, spirits and elementals.

Pete

Pete aka Spitfire
Test your might...
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Peter David Boddy
Carleton University
Email address: pdboddy@****.carleton.ca
Email address: bx955@*******.carleton.ca
----------------------------------------------------------------------

From:	Tom Pendergrast <pendergr@***.EDU>
Subject:	Re: Quickened spells and Horrors.
Date:	Tue, 07 May 1996 18:14:13 -0700 (PDT)

Message no. 16 Just one thing I thought about campers... If a mage is initiated and
quickens a spell on himself, he might just be powerful enough to deal
with astral horrors or whatever... even at low grades initiate mages are
badasses in the astral...

---Tom---

From:	"Gurth" <gurth@******.nl>
Subject:	Re: Quickened spells and Horrors.
Date:	Wed, 8 May 1996 11:37:31 +0100

Message no. 17 Tom Pendergrast said on 18:14/ 7 May 96...

> Just one thing I thought about campers... If a mage is initiated and
> quickens a spell on himself, he might just be powerful enough to deal
> with astral horrors or whatever... even at low grades initiate mages are
> badasses in the astral...

Only in part, if you ask me... Although it's been some time since I ran
HB, the Horror-constructs in that book gave the players quite a lot of
trouble, even though the shaman was a grade 4 or 5 initiate back then.
Just asa for example (don't read on if you haven't played Harlequin's Back
yet, OK?)

the enemy crawlers mentioned on page 25 have Body 10, Willpower 8, and 6
Threat Rating dice. These are some of the tougher constructs in the
adventure, but imagine the stats of the Horrors themselves... Take the
wraith (PAoE) and add a bit to that, I think...

--
Gurth@******.nl - http://www.xs4all.nl/~gurth/index.html
"They" can do anything they want.
-> NERPS Project Leader & Unofficial Shadowrun Guru <-
-> The Character Mortuary: http://huizen.dds.nl/~mortuary/mortuary.html <-

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From:	Peter David Boddy <pdboddy@****.carleton.ca>
Subject:	Re: Quickened spells and Horrors.
Date:	Wed, 8 May 96 5:40:53 EDT

Message no. 18 Tom Pendergrast writes:
>
>
> Just one thing I thought about campers... If a mage is initiated and
> quickens a spell on himself, he might just be powerful enough to deal
> with astral horrors or whatever... even at low grades initiate mages are
> badasses in the astral...
>

That may be true, though I thought that the argument was that if Horrors
were introduced to Shadowrun, wouldn't they be attracted to quickened
spells like moths to a light at night.

Pete

Pete aka Spitfire
Test your might...
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Peter David Boddy
Carleton University
Email address: pdboddy@****.carleton.ca
Email address: bx955@*******.carleton.ca
----------------------------------------------------------------------

From:	Peter David Boddy <pdboddy@****.carleton.ca>
Subject:	Re: Quickened spells and Horrors.
Date:	Wed, 8 May 96 5:58:56 EDT

Message no. 19 Gurth writes:
>
> the enemy crawlers mentioned on page 25 have Body 10, Willpower 8, and 6
> Threat Rating dice. These are some of the tougher constructs in the
> adventure, but imagine the stats of the Horrors themselves... Take the
> wraith (PAoE) and add a bit to that, I think...

YIKES!! I repeat what I said before. You either have a nasty GM, or live
in a nasty neighbourhood to be worried about those things. Kinda makes
you think twice about visiting Europe, or Aztlan for a run or two, doesn't
it. Methinks I'll be very interested to read Threats, which should be
out shortly.

Pete

Pete aka Spitfire
Test your might...
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Peter David Boddy
Carleton University
Email address: pdboddy@****.carleton.ca
Email address: bx955@*******.carleton.ca
----------------------------------------------------------------------

From:	"Andre' Selmer" <031ANDRE@******.wits.ac.za>
Subject:	Re: Quickened spells and Horrors.
Date:	Wed, 8 May 1996 12:30:06 GMT + 2:00

Message no. 20 @ >
@ >
@ > Just one thing I thought about campers... If a mage is initiated and
@ > quickens a spell on himself, he might just be powerful enough to deal
@ > with astral horrors or whatever... even at low grades initiate mages are
@ > badasses in the astral...
@ >
@
@ That may be true, though I thought that the argument was that if Horrors
@ were introduced to Shadowrun, wouldn't they be attracted to quickened
@ spells like moths to a light at night.

That is assuming that they pitch up from almost nowhere, are in
small enough numbers so as not to pollute astral. There again as
mentioned before, why would a horror (intellegent one) even consider
that itsy bitsy shadowmage, when there are the likes of the grand
druid and others. Not to mention horrors feed off human misery and
deprevation, heck all they need to do is sit happy in Redmond for a
few years. There is no more wretched place on earth.

Andre'

-- We exist because you want us to, because you are
|__|__ afraid to fact the facts. We are what you fear
/\ /\ \ in the deep recesses of your soul, yourselves.
|\ /\ /| | It is there in the shadows of your soul and those
|/ \/ \| | of the street that we exist. Through the use of
\/__\/ might, magic, cunning, blood, sweat and tears we
protect you from your fears, from youselves, from
others and keep your utopia, not ours, intact.

From:	"Mark Steedman" <M.J.Steedman@***.rgu.ac.uk>
Subject:	Re: Quickened spells and Horrors.
Date:	Wed, 8 May 1996 11:14:01 GMT

Message no. 21 Peter David Boddy writes

> Tom Pendergrast writes:
> >
> >
> > Just one thing I thought about campers... If a mage is initiated and
> > quickens a spell on himself, he might just be powerful enough to deal
> > with astral horrors or whatever... even at low grades initiate mages are
> > badasses in the astral...
> >
If you want to go astral near a horror be my guest, Abosolutely no
way am i joining you. You are obviously unaware (fairly rasonable
considering the info in SR in hard at best to come by) that horros
cause astral corruption by thier mere presence. One look at the rules
[yes they exist, though FASA don't tell you about the link to Horros
in SR probably becasue they are so rare in SR] for background counts
in the region of 'corruption' levels should pursuade you 10 grades of
initiation won't help nuch.

>
> That may be true, though I thought that the argument was that if Horrors
> were introduced to Shadowrun, wouldn't they be attracted to quickened
> spells like moths to a light at night.
>
Yes, if they didn't have jucier targets, like thay huge great veil
about the Tir Na Nog.

> Pete
>
Mark

From:	"Mark Steedman" <M.J.Steedman@***.rgu.ac.uk>
Subject:	Re: Quickened spells and Horrors.
Date:	Wed, 8 May 1996 11:24:05 GMT

Message no. 22 "Gurth" writes

> Only in part, if you ask me... Although it's been some time since I ran
> HB, the Horror-constructs in that book gave the players quite a lot of
> trouble, even though the shaman was a grade 4 or 5 initiate back then.
> Just asa for example (don't read on if you haven't played Harlequin's Back
> yet, OK?)
>
>
>
>

>
> the enemy crawlers mentioned on page 25 have Body 10, Willpower 8, and 6
> Threat Rating dice. These are some of the tougher constructs in the
> adventure,
Yes! i sent more than one PC flying on a D physical after only one
attack salvo from these things the first time they met them. Once
they got organised they are manageable but very very nasty. Most of
the rest of the stats are similarly good, oh and they are fast, very
fast.

> but imagine the stats of the Horrors themselves... Take the
> wraith (PAoE) and add a bit to that, I think...
Depends on Horror. Having played enough ED. They range from don't
walk on it, nearly literally to well Vergigorm (which is quite
capable of doing exactly what its sub name 'hunter of great dragons'
suggests).
Your 'typical' [no such thing but] big time horror has ED steps in
armour in the 20 to 30 region, and would have similar values in SR,
yes enough armour to ignore an AP panther cannon and the body to soak
it. Add the effect they hav on the astal, the fact that many work
'behind the scenes' through dreams, that horrible power 'horror mark'
[SR has nothing as bad, at least SR critters have to see you to hurt
you] etc.

Certainly though Wraiths are a good start, though a fully powered up
one is equivalent physical attributes wise to something very nasty.

Mark

>
> --
> Gurth@******.nl - http://www.xs4all.nl/~gurth/index.html
> "They" can do anything they want.
> -> NERPS Project Leader & Unofficial Shadowrun Guru <-
> -> The Character Mortuary: http://huizen.dds.nl/~mortuary/mortuary.html <-
>
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> ------END GEEK CODE BLOCK------
>

From:	Matti Aistrich <aistrich@********.hkkk.fi>
Subject:	Re: Quickened spells and Horrors.
Date:	Wed, 8 May 1996 13:39:23 +0300 (EET DST)

Message no. 23 On Wed, 8 May 1996, Mark Steedman wrote:

> > the enemy crawlers mentioned on page 25 have Body 10, Willpower 8, and 6
> > Threat Rating dice. These are some of the tougher constructs in the
> > adventure,
> Yes! i sent more than one PC flying on a D physical after only one
> attack salvo from these things the first time they met them. Once
> they got organised they are manageable but very very nasty. Most of
> the rest of the stats are similarly good, oh and they are fast, very
> fast.
>
Yeah -- sometimes a tough enough opponent is the only way to make players
start thinking of tactics instead of just standing there and exchanging
blows.

---------------------------------------------
: Perfect is : Matti M. Aistrich :
: only just : :
: good enough! : aistrich@********.hkkk.fi :
---------------------------------------------
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From:	"Andre' Selmer" <031ANDRE@******.wits.ac.za>
Subject:	Re: Quickened spells and Horrors.
Date:	Wed, 8 May 1996 13:05:04 GMT + 2:00

Message no. 24 @ On Wed, 8 May 1996, Mark Steedman wrote:
@
@ > > the enemy crawlers mentioned on page 25 have Body 10, Willpower 8, and 6
@ > > Threat Rating dice. These are some of the tougher constructs in the
@ > > adventure,
@ > Yes! i sent more than one PC flying on a D physical after only one
@ > attack salvo from these things the first time they met them. Once
@ > they got organised they are manageable but very very nasty. Most of
@ > the rest of the stats are similarly good, oh and they are fast, very
@ > fast.
@ >
@ Yeah -- sometimes a tough enough opponent is the only way to make players
@ start thinking of tactics instead of just standing there and exchanging
@ blows.

Try playing a character with such a low toughness and even lower
strenght (non mage character) and tactics become a big time priority.
Alternatively have a street sam with very low level wires, that
character is also toast without some form of tactics (Btw Trolls and
Orcs don't count in the last category;)

Andre'

-- We exist because you want us to, because you are
|__|__ afraid to fact the facts. We are what you fear
/\ /\ \ in the deep recesses of your soul, yourselves.
|\ /\ /| | It is there in the shadows of your soul and those
|/ \/ \| | of the street that we exist. Through the use of
\/__\/ might, magic, cunning, blood, sweat and tears we
protect you from your fears, from youselves, from
others and keep your utopia, not ours, intact.

From:	"A Halliwell" <u5a77@**.keele.ac.uk>
Subject:	Re: Quickened spells and Horrors.
Date:	Wed, 8 May 1996 12:17:30 +0100 (BST)

Message no. 25 |
|
|Just one thing I thought about campers... If a mage is initiated and
|quickens a spell on himself, he might just be powerful enough to deal
|with astral horrors or whatever... even at low grades initiate mages are
|badasses in the astral...

Try telling that to him after he's had a Horror Mark.....
(The Horror can do things to him through it, using any of it's powers, from
anywhere.)
--
______________________________________________________________________________
|u5a77@**.keele.ac.uk |It has been widely reported in the newspapers, that |
|Andrew Halliwell | a so called "puppet" of the queen mother, would |
|Principal subjects in:-| appear on this weeks program. To the press, the |
|Comp Sci & Visual Arts |public, and the many members of parlaiment who have |
|-----------------------|so kindly rung in to complain,we would like to admit|
| that this is an outragious and contemptable untruth perpatrated by us, to |
| bring the program into line with current government policy guidelines |
| Spitting Image have never made such a puppet, and were on holiday at the |
|time it wasn't made.... Thank you. (Spitting Image, when it was still funny)|
------------------------------------------------------------------------------
|GCv3.1 GCS/FA>$ d---(dpu) s+/- a- C++ U N++ K- w-- M+/++ PS+++ PE- Y t+ 5++ |
|X+/++ R+ tv+ b+ D G e>PhD h/h+ !r! !y-|I can still say FUCK! Americans can't|
------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From:	"Sascha Pabst" <Sascha.Pabst@**********.Uni-Oldenburg.DE>
Subject:	Re: Quickened spells and Horrors.
Date:	Wed, 8 May 1996 20:41:53 +0200

Message no. 26 At 14:30 Uhr 8.05.96, Andre' Selmer wrote:
[...]
>Not to mention horrors feed off human misery and
>deprevation, heck all they need to do is sit happy in Redmond for a
>few years. There is no more wretched place on earth.

There are: the Pullayup Barrens.
Denver.

Sascha

--
+---___---------+----------------------------------------+--------------------+
| / / _______ | Jhary-a-Conel aka Sascha Pabst |The one who does not|
| / /_/ ____/ |Sascha.Pabst@**********.Uni-Oldenburg.de| learn from history |
| \___ __/ | | is bound to live |
|==== \_/ ======| *Wearing hats is just a way of life* | through it again. |
|LOGOUT FASCISM!| - Me | |
+------------- http://www.informatik.uni-oldenburg.de/~jhary -----------------+

From:	"Dr. Bolthy von Schotz" <bolthy@**.COM>
Subject:	Re: Quickened spells and Horrors.
Date:	Wed, 8 May 1996 13:48:38 -0500 (CDT)

Message no. 27 On Wed, 8 May 1996, Sascha Pabst wrote:

> At 14:30 Uhr 8.05.96, Andre' Selmer wrote:
> [...]
> >Not to mention horrors feed off human misery and
> >deprevation, heck all they need to do is sit happy in Redmond for a
> >few years. There is no more wretched place on earth.
>
> There are: the Pullayup Barrens.
> Denver.
>

You forgot:
Washington, DC
Eastern Washington State
Central California...

Umm...=)

|\ /\ |\ | |\
|/ \/ | \ |\ | \
|\ /\ | |/ \ |
|/ / \ | | \|

http://weber.u.washington.edu/~bolthy
"Remember: Heaven is Blue. Tomorrow, the world."
-Head of the Blue Meanies

From:	Valerie A Olson <volson@********.ca>
Subject:	Re: Quickened spells and Horrors.
Date:	Wed, 8 May 1996 19:58:00 -0400 (EDT)

Message no. 28 On Wed, 8 May 1996, Matti Aistrich wrote:

> On Wed, 8 May 1996, Mark Steedman wrote:
>
> > > the enemy crawlers mentioned on page 25 have Body 10, Willpower 8, and 6
> > > Threat Rating dice. These are some of the tougher constructs in the
> > > adventure,
> > Yes! i sent more than one PC flying on a D physical after only one
> > attack salvo from these things the first time they met them. Once
> > they got organised they are manageable but very very nasty. Most of
> > the rest of the stats are similarly good, oh and they are fast, very
> > fast.
> >
> Yeah -- sometimes a tough enough opponent is the only way to make players
> start thinking of tactics instead of just standing there and exchanging
> blows.
>
On the other hand it may just be time to bring out the bigger guns!
There wasn't much in H.B. that was happy after my panther took a piece
out of them! Heh,heh,heh.

The ROO-MAN.

From:	wilsonpj@******.STCLOUD.MSUS.EDU (Peter)
Subject:	Re: Quickened spells and Horrors.
Date:	Thu, 09 May 1996 00:57:57 -0600

Message no. 29 On Wed, 08 May 1996, the ROO-MAN wrote:

>
> On the other hand it may just be time to bring out the bigger guns!
>There wasn't much in H.B. that was happy after my panther took a piece
>out of them! Heh,heh,heh.
>

You're talking about Harlequin's Back right, where the PC's are sent an a
quest to some meta-planes where their equipnent is changed for each period?
What was he carrying in the first world you visited, a siege engine?

Piatro

From:	Peter David Boddy <pdboddy@****.carleton.ca>
Subject:	Re: Quickened spells and Horrors.
Date:	Thu, 9 May 96 3:15:02 EDT

Message no. 30 Valerie A Olson writes:
> > Yeah -- sometimes a tough enough opponent is the only way to make players
> > start thinking of tactics instead of just standing there and exchanging
> > blows.
> >
> On the other hand it may just be time to bring out the bigger guns!
> There wasn't much in H.B. that was happy after my panther took a piece
> out of them! Heh,heh,heh.
>

Panther Cannon+Unfortunant Target=Chunky Salsa Dip!

Break out the tacos:)

Pete

Pete aka Spitfire
Test your might...
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Peter David Boddy
Carleton University
Email address: pdboddy@****.carleton.ca
Email address: bx955@*******.carleton.ca
----------------------------------------------------------------------

From:	"Mark Steedman" <M.J.Steedman@***.rgu.ac.uk>
Subject:	Re: Quickened spells and Horrors.
Date:	Thu, 9 May 1996 08:42:18 GMT

Message no. 31 Piatro writes
> On Wed, 08 May 1996, the ROO-MAN wrote:
>
> >
> > On the other hand it may just be time to bring out the bigger guns!
> >There wasn't much in H.B. that was happy after my panther took a piece
> >out of them! Heh,heh,heh.
> >
>
> You're talking about Harlequin's Back right,
it is accepted HB = Harlequins back.

> where the PC's are sent an a
> quest to some meta-planes where their equipnent is changed for each period?
> What was he carrying in the first world you visited, a siege engine?
>
I hope he wasn't. My point on this is fine when he had it it would
kill crawlers, sure, when i ran the adventure the PC's had stuff that
could kill them, try a franchie spass with IPEX rounds, only it
doesn't work if the critter goes first, runs up to character and
goes, two attacks, 12M stun (or something like that) + loads, and
repeat, oh you'r unconcious so i don't get to use the bite. [in fact
they never found out about the bite, nothing that got hit hard enough
to use it stood up long enough for it to matter].
at the bridge pt1, A bit of imitation of Harlequin an the ED
'recovery' spell was required, it involved throwing all easily
grabbed dice at the GM screen and declaring the PC's cured. [they
seriously needed it :) ]

Overall HB is best suited to well skills rounded characters, armed
combat is just 'slightly' handy.

> Piatro
>
Mark

From:	"A Halliwell" <u5a77@**.keele.ac.uk>
Subject:	Re: Quickened spells and Horrors.
Date:	Thu, 9 May 1996 10:39:04 +0100 (BST)

Message no. 32 |
|On Wed, 08 May 1996, the ROO-MAN wrote:
|
|>
|> On the other hand it may just be time to bring out the bigger guns!
|>There wasn't much in H.B. that was happy after my panther took a piece
|>out of them! Heh,heh,heh.
|>
|
|You're talking about Harlequin's Back right, where the PC's are sent an a
|quest to some meta-planes where their equipnent is changed for each period?
|What was he carrying in the first world you visited, a siege engine?

That only happened in the metaplanes themselves. The first place they went
was the "divide" where the horrors were about to start crossing the bridge.
The characters still have their weapons there......

--
______________________________________________________________________________
|u5a77@**.keele.ac.uk |It has been widely reported in the newspapers, that |
|Andrew Halliwell | a so called "puppet" of the queen mother, would |
|Principal subjects in:-| appear on this weeks program. To the press, the |
|Comp Sci & Visual Arts |public, and the many members of parlaiment who have |
|-----------------------|so kindly rung in to complain,we would like to admit|
| that this is an outragious and contemptable untruth perpatrated by us, to |
| bring the program into line with current government policy guidelines |
| Spitting Image have never made such a puppet, and were on holiday at the |
|time it wasn't made.... Thank you. (Spitting Image, when it was still funny)|
------------------------------------------------------------------------------
|GCv3.1 GCS/FA>$ d---(dpu) s+/- a- C++ U N++ K- w-- M+/++ PS+++ PE- Y t+ 5++ |
|X+/++ R+ tv+ b+ D G e>PhD h/h+ !r! !y-|I can still say FUCK! Americans can't|
------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From:	Valerie A Olson <volson@********.ca>
Subject:	Re: Quickened spells and Horrors.
Date:	Thu, 9 May 1996 06:22:47 -0400 (EDT)

Message no. 33 On Thu, 9 May 1996, Peter wrote:

> On Wed, 08 May 1996, the ROO-MAN wrote:
>
> >
> > On the other hand it may just be time to bring out the bigger guns!
> >There wasn't much in H.B. that was happy after my panther took a piece
> >out of them! Heh,heh,heh.
> >
>
> You're talking about Harlequin's Back right, where the PC's are sent an a
> quest to some meta-planes where their equipnent is changed for each period?
> What was he carrying in the first world you visited, a siege engine?
>
> Piatro
>
>
I gotta admit on the first world i was in a world of unhappiness with
a crossbow instead of a gun and was reduced to throwing rocks! that sucked.

The ROO-MAN.>

From:	"Gurth" <gurth@******.nl>
Subject:	Re: Quickened spells and Horrors.
Date:	Thu, 9 May 1996 13:12:57 +0100

Message no. 34 Valerie A Olson said on 19:58/ 8 May 96...

> On the other hand it may just be time to bring out the bigger guns!
> There wasn't much in H.B. that was happy after my panther took a piece
> out of them! Heh,heh,heh.

If that's what you put your trust in, I guess you had a pretty hard time
in some of the sub-adventures...

--
Gurth@******.nl - http://www.xs4all.nl/~gurth/index.html
"They" can do anything they want.
-> NERPS Project Leader & Unofficial Shadowrun Guru <-
-> The Character Mortuary: http://huizen.dds.nl/~mortuary/mortuary.html <-

-----BEGIN GEEK CODE BLOCK-----
Version 3.1:
GAT/! d-(dpu) s:- !a>? C+(++)@ U P L E? W(++) N o? K- w+ O V? PS+ PE
Y PGP- t(+) 5+ X++ R+++>$ tv+(++) b++@ DI? D+ G(++) e h! !r(---) y?
------END GEEK CODE BLOCK------

From:	"Dr. Bolthy von Schotz" <bolthy@**.com>
Subject:	Re: Quickened spells and Horrors.
Date:	Thu, 9 May 1996 09:05:15 -0500 (CDT)

Message no. 35 On Thu, 9 May 1996, Peter David Boddy wrote:

> Valerie A Olson writes:
> > > Yeah -- sometimes a tough enough opponent is the only way to make players
> > > start thinking of tactics instead of just standing there and exchanging
> > > blows.
> > >
> > On the other hand it may just be time to bring out the bigger guns!
> > There wasn't much in H.B. that was happy after my panther took a piece
> > out of them! Heh,heh,heh.
> >
>
> Panther Cannon+Unfortunant Target=Chunky Salsa Dip!
>
> Break out the tacos:)
>

Actually, the rules specifically state that you only get the chunky salsa
effect when you combine grenades with confined spaces. ;)

|\ /\ |\ | |\
|/ \/ | \ |\ | \
|\ /\ | |/ \ |
|/ / \ | | \|

http://weber.u.washington.edu/~bolthy
"Remember: Heaven is Blue. Tomorrow, the world."
-Head of the Blue Meanies

From:	Jonas Gabrielson <m94jga@*******.tdb.uu.se>
Subject:	Re: Quickened spells and Horrors.
Date:	Thu, 9 May 1996 17:00:35 +0200 (MET DST)

Message no. 36 On Wed, 8 May 1996, Peter David Boddy wrote:

> Gurth writes:
> >
> > the enemy crawlers mentioned on page 25 have Body 10, Willpower 8, and 6
> > Threat Rating dice. These are some of the tougher constructs in the
> > adventure, but imagine the stats of the Horrors themselves... Take the
> > wraith (PAoE) and add a bit to that, I think...
>
> YIKES!! I repeat what I said before. You either have a nasty GM, or live
> in a nasty neighbourhood to be worried about those things. Kinda makes
> you think twice about visiting Europe, or Aztlan for a run or two, doesn't
> it. Methinks I'll be very interested to read Threats, which should be
> out shortly.

Yeah!!!
I'll buy ten copies and cuddle with them in bed!!! 8)

-Jonas Gabrielson, a major EI/H-fan

From:	"Mark Steedman" <M.J.Steedman@***.rgu.ac.uk>
Subject:	Re: Quickened spells and Horrors.
Date:	Thu, 9 May 1996 16:20:00 GMT

Message no. 37 Dr. Bolthy von Schotz writes
>
> Actually, the rules specifically state that you only get the chunky salsa
> effect when you combine grenades with confined spaces. ;)
>
Maybe :), but that doesn't stop characters with big weapons trying. I
mean one poor target (they accused it of being a bug, wrong it was
worse but) LMG, full auto ADPS, HMG minigun, 15rnds APDS then a Great
dragon ATGM! Chunky, the salsa wasn't chunky it was mush, ok it did
live through the first couple (far too much armour and a bucket of
karma does wonders). Ok so it was planned as a big showdown and i had
expected the HMG but the poor target got one action, get back off the
floor, ever tried rolling 25's for strength? it seemed reasonable
after the HMG salvo.

Mark

From:	"Dr. Bolthy von Schotz" <bolthy@**.com>
Subject:	Re: Quickened spells and Horrors.
Date:	Thu, 9 May 1996 10:35:27 -0500 (CDT)

Message no. 38 On Thu, 9 May 1996, Mark Steedman wrote:

> Dr. Bolthy von Schotz writes
> >
> > Actually, the rules specifically state that you only get the chunky salsa
> > effect when you combine grenades with confined spaces. ;)
> >
> Maybe :), but that doesn't stop characters with big weapons trying. I
> mean one poor target (they accused it of being a bug, wrong it was
> worse but) LMG, full auto ADPS, HMG minigun, 15rnds APDS then a Great
> dragon ATGM! Chunky, the salsa wasn't chunky it was mush, ok it did
> live through the first couple (far too much armour and a bucket of
> karma does wonders). Ok so it was planned as a big showdown and i had
> expected the HMG but the poor target got one action, get back off the
> floor, ever tried rolling 25's for strength? it seemed reasonable
> after the HMG salvo.
>

Nope! Too bad! *spanking canon frantically* canon sez you can only get
the effect with grenades. Sorry, d00d. Can't do it. Ha ha!

*slap* *slap*

Sorry... don't know what came over me.

|\ /\ |\ | |\
|/ \/ | \ |\ | \
|\ /\ | |/ \ |
|/ / \ | | \|

http://weber.u.washington.edu/~bolthy
"Remember: Heaven is Blue. Tomorrow, the world."
-Head of the Blue Meanies

From:	Robert Watkins <robertdw@*******.com.au>
Subject:	Re: Quickened spells and Horrors.
Date:	Sat, 11 May 96 11:17:45 +1030

Message no. 39 >|You're talking about Harlequin's Back right, where the PC's are sent an a
>|quest to some meta-planes where their equipnent is changed for each period?
>|What was he carrying in the first world you visited, a siege engine?
>
>That only happened in the metaplanes themselves. The first place they went
>was the "divide" where the horrors were about to start crossing the bridge.
>The characters still have their weapons there......

Yeah, but his quote is still valid... the characters only had the weapons
that they _usually_ have with them, and it is these same weapons that
transform when you move to the metaplanes.

(Personally, I'd have to be worried about a group that _usually_ carries
around a Panther Assault Cannon (or an LMG or a sniper rifle... *sigh*
some people are munchkins))

Oh, yeah... how to annoy munchkins. <slight topic drift> I had a player
that really likes to carry an LMG around in the boot of his car. Well,
one day I casually mention that LS is doing a traffic blitz. Later that
night (game wise), he's cruising down a street in Downtown (at about 120
kmh or about 75 miles/hour), and I roll the dice... yep, he's flagged
down for a speeding ticket. Heck, I hadn't even PLANNED to search the car.

The resulting high-speed chase took us an hour to game out.

--
*************************************************************************
* .--_ # "My opinions may have changed, but not the fact *
* _-0(#)) # that I'm right." -- Old Fortune Saying *
* @__ )/ # *
* )=(===__==,= # Robert Watkins <---> robertdw@*******.com.au *
* {}== \--==--`= # *
* ,_) \ # "A friend is someone who watches the same *
* L_===__)=, # TV programs as you" *
*************************************************************************

From:	Valerie A Olson <volson@********.ca>
Subject:	Re: Quickened spells and Horrors.
Date:	Fri, 10 May 1996 22:05:27 -0400 (EDT)

Message no. 40 On Sat, 11 May 1996, Robert Watkins wrote:

> >|You're talking about Harlequin's Back right, where the PC's are sent an a
> >|quest to some meta-planes where their equipnent is changed for each period?
> >|What was he carrying in the first world you visited, a siege engine?
> >
> >That only happened in the metaplanes themselves. The first place they went
> >was the "divide" where the horrors were about to start crossing the
bridge.
> >The characters still have their weapons there......
>
> Yeah, but his quote is still valid... the characters only had the weapons
> that they _usually_ have with them, and it is these same weapons that
> transform when you move to the metaplanes.
>
> (Personally, I'd have to be worried about a group that _usually_ carries
> around a Panther Assault Cannon (or an LMG or a sniper rifle... *sigh*
> some people are munchkins))
>
HEY! I take offence at that! The way I figure it, a troll considering
his size, would have as little trouble with an assualt canon, as a human
would have with a rifle/shotgun. No-one complains about a human carrying
a shotgun on a run, but if a troll carries an assualt canon he's a
munchkin! ( where does that come from by the way? ) I don't think enough
people take size into consideration in this game, e.g. how does a troll
fit those enormouse fingers into the tiny little trigger guard on his
gun? Personally I solve it by cutting the trigger guard off my guns,
alternately I guess you could have the gun customised. I also have a probelem
with the quick-draw rules; the book states that something can only be
quick-drawn if something is in a holster, and is pistol-sized. I argue that
a large, heavy pistol on a dwarf would be no larger than a shotgun on a
troll, so why couldn't a troll fit a shotgun in a shoulder holster (he is,
like, 3 metres tall) and quick-draw it?? The answer, cause the rules don't
take size into account!

Just my two nuyen....
the Roo-man.

From:	TopCat <topcat@******.net>
Subject:	Re: Quickened spells and Horrors.
Date:	Sat, 11 May 1996 00:15:18 -0500

Message no. 41 >(Personally, I'd have to be worried about a group that _usually_ carries
>around a Panther Assault Cannon (or an LMG or a sniper rifle... *sigh*
>some people are munchkins))

It's munchkin to have a PAC or an LMG, but a high force manabolt and 10
grades of initiation isn't? Sounds like a serious case of mageness going
around the list...

--------------------------------------------------------
* Bob Ooton -- <topcat@******.net> *
* Golden Tiger Association -- Submission Fighting Team *
--------------------------------------------------------
* All you need to start up an insane asylum is *
* an empty room and the right kind of people *
--------------------------------------------------------

From:	Robert Watkins <robertdw@*******.com.au>
Subject:	Re: Quickened spells and Horrors.
Date:	Sat, 11 May 96 21:05:08 +1030

Message no. 42 >It's munchkin to have a PAC or an LMG, but a high force manabolt and 10
>grades of initiation isn't? Sounds like a serious case of mageness going
>around the list...

No, High-force manabolt and 10 grades of initiation is munchkin as well.
(Happy?)

Look, I come down on power gaming. Full stop. I don't like my players
starting out with massive weaponary, and I don't like them starting out
with massive spells, _either_. I have come to the conclusion, drawn from
empirical evidence, that a mage with a Force 6 manabolt is likely to be
more munchkinous than a guy with an assault cannon.

--
* *
/_\ "A friend is someone who likes the same TV programs you do" /_\
{~._.~} "Eternal nothingness is fine if you happen {~._.~}
( Y ) to be dressed for it." -- Woody Allen ( Y )
()~*~() Robert Watkins robertdw@*******.com.au ()~*~()
(_)-(_) (_)-(_)

From:	Peter David Boddy <pdboddy@****.carleton.ca>
Subject:	Re: Quickened spells and Horrors.
Date:	Sat, 11 May 96 11:58:02 EDT

Message no. 43 Robert Watkins writes:
>
> >It's munchkin to have a PAC or an LMG, but a high force manabolt and 10
> >grades of initiation isn't? Sounds like a serious case of mageness going
> >around the list...
>
> Look, I come down on power gaming. Full stop. I don't like my players
> starting out with massive weaponary, and I don't like them starting out
> with massive spells, _either_. I have come to the conclusion, drawn from
> empirical evidence, that a mage with a Force 6 manabolt is likely to be
> more munchkinous than a guy with an assault cannon.
>

Unless you have lowered the priority for magic, the most starting force
points a mage will have is 35. Meaning that he/she could have about 6
spells at force 6. (5 at force 6, one at force five) Not a lot of spells
there. Now, if a mage doesn't want to fry himself summoning a spirit, or
casting a spell, he has high willpower and high charisma, so he is lacking
in body and quickness and strength (assume that is int. is above average).
He will be screwed the first time he gets shot (assuming his bullet
barrier isn't cast in time), or when he really needed the mask spell or
invisibility, when all he has is mana-this and power-that, and a force 6
hellblast.

Pete

Pete aka Spitfire
Test your might...
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Peter David Boddy
Carleton University
Email address: pdboddy@****.carleton.ca
Email address: bx955@*******.carleton.ca
----------------------------------------------------------------------

From:	"Sascha Pabst" <Sascha.Pabst@**********.Uni-Oldenburg.DE>
Subject:	Re: Quickened spells and Horrors.
Date:	Sat, 11 May 1996 20:18:46 +0200

Message no. 44 At 7:15 Uhr 11.05.96, TopCat wrote:
>It's munchkin to have a PAC or an LMG, but a high force manabolt and 10
>grades of initiation isn't? Sounds like a serious case of mageness going
>around the list...
What's the difference between a manabolt and a LMG/PAC/assembled Sniper
Rifle? Hm? Can you tell me or are you so magophob you can't even think
about spells?
Well, I give you the answer: You can't see 'em until you use 'em.
When they are used, the opposition should react equally (usually, drop
dead). But having a manabolt with you - some memories in ya brain -
is less obvious then carrying a LMG through Seattle's Streets - until
someone invents a Read-Ya-Brain-O'mat, of course. :-)

Sascha

--
+---___---------+----------------------------------------+--------------------+
| / / _______ | Jhary-a-Conel aka Sascha Pabst |The one who does not|
| / /_/ ____/ |Sascha.Pabst@**********.Uni-Oldenburg.de| learn from history |
| \___ __/ | | is bound to live |
|==== \_/ ======| *Wearing hats is just a way of life* | through it again. |
|LOGOUT FASCISM!| - Me | |
+------------- http://www.informatik.uni-oldenburg.de/~jhary -----------------+

From:	TopCat <topcat@******.net>
Subject:	Re: Quickened spells and Horrors.
Date:	Sat, 11 May 1996 15:39:47 -0500

Message no. 45 >>It's munchkin to have a PAC or an LMG, but a high force manabolt and 10
>>grades of initiation isn't? Sounds like a serious case of mageness going
>>around the list...

>What's the difference between a manabolt and a LMG/PAC/assembled Sniper
>Rifle? Hm? Can you tell me or are you so magophob you can't even think
>about spells?
>Well, I give you the answer: You can't see 'em until you use 'em.
>When they are used, the opposition should react equally (usually, drop
>dead). But having a manabolt with you - some memories in ya brain -
>is less obvious then carrying a LMG through Seattle's Streets - until
>someone invents a Read-Ya-Brain-O'mat, of course. :-)

True enough, but any _smart_ shadowrunner goes equipped for the job. Which
means dragging PAC's and LMG's (which I personally find to be just that side
of useless) where they'll be necessary. If you know you'll be up against a
big barrier spell (which all mages have, right?) then you need something
bigger than the barrier.

Sure, you can't go bringing it into a bar, but only a moron would think that
that was what I was talking about. You keep those things stashed until
needed then transport them as quietly as possible to the target area. I
usually keep most of my weapons at my armorer's place until needed, often
just renting weapons for particular jobs as needed.

I'm not a "magophob" but I do despise the way I see magic getting severely
preferential treatment in many things mentioned on this list. We (being the
groups I've been in) prefer a balanced game, it's more fun that way.

And all it takes for a manabolt to be realized is to know that the character
can cast such a spell. S'why I do silly little thing like research targets,
so I know what they are capable of. I choose the tools that I think'll put
me over the top of the target's abilities and I do the job. It isn't
munchkin, it isn't brain-reading, it's preparation. If your shadowrunners
don't do this whenever possible, then they should be dead by now.

--------------------------------------------------------
* Bob Ooton -- <topcat@******.net> *
* Golden Tiger Association -- Submission Fighting Team *
--------------------------------------------------------
* All you need to start up an insane asylum is *
* an empty room and the right kind of people *
--------------------------------------------------------

From:	"Sascha Pabst" <Sascha.Pabst@**********.Uni-Oldenburg.DE>
Subject:	Re: Quickened spells and Horrors.
Date:	Sat, 11 May 1996 23:16:00 +0200

Message no. 46 At 22:39 Uhr 11.05.96, TopCat wrote:
>Sure, you can't go bringing [PAC, LMG] into a bar, but only a moron would
>think that
>that was what I was talking about. You keep those things stashed until
>needed then transport them as quietly as possible to the target area. I
>usually keep most of my weapons at my armorer's place until needed, often
>just renting weapons for particular jobs as needed.
Hm... who was the one who talked about "getting the magician while
the spellocks are off"? I really don't know, Someone said so in this
stupid discussion (in which I participate, stupid me). I agree to that,
as I agree to you: You can bring down anyone who isn't expecting an attack.
And a group can only be survive AND be good (efficient) if the whole
team works together and each member fills hin his/her gap.

I wouldn't like to go out on a run without a quick, heavily cybered fighter,
a good rigger, and a magician. If a team acts as a group of individuals,
they are meat once they meet opposition that earns this word.
Can we agree on that?

>And all it takes for a manabolt to be realized is to know that the character
>can cast such a spell. S'why I do silly little thing like research targets,
>so I know what they are capable of. I choose the tools that I think'll put
>me over the top of the target's abilities and I do the job. It isn't
>munchkin, it isn't brain-reading, it's preparation. If your shadowrunners
>don't do this whenever possible, then they should be dead by now.
a) I agree, but
b) that is only true if you are a "target" and someone has done his
research on you. _I_ talked about the average gangie/LS Cop/SecGuard
who doesn't know you and just scans you over.

But lets stay to the agreement: People who don't do their homework deserve
to be taken out of the job queue.

Sascha

--
+---___---------+----------------------------------------+--------------------+
| / / _______ | Jhary-a-Conel aka Sascha Pabst |The one who does not|
| / /_/ ____/ |Sascha.Pabst@**********.Uni-Oldenburg.de| learn from history |
| \___ __/ | | is bound to live |
|==== \_/ ======| *Wearing hats is just a way of life* | through it again. |
|LOGOUT FASCISM!| - Me | |
+------------- http://www.informatik.uni-oldenburg.de/~jhary -----------------+

From:	TopCat <topcat@******.net>
Subject:	Re: Quickened spells and Horrors.
Date:	Sat, 11 May 1996 16:41:11 -0500

Message no. 47 >I wouldn't like to go out on a run without a quick, heavily cybered fighter,
>a good rigger, and a magician. If a team acts as a group of individuals,
>they are meat once they meet opposition that earns this word.
>Can we agree on that?

Our runs were (that campaign has died now) handled almost exclusively by
samurai and physads. I know this isn't typical, but we managed to handle
magical opposition fairly well and butcher non-magical assets. Butcher is
probably a bad choice of word, because we used gel rounds, narcojects
(usually loaded with Gamma-Scopolamine), or tasers whenever we could. The
sack of blood mage and worthless shaman were little more than karma-leeches
and bodies to drag out.

With my ongoing campaign, people get hassled for heavy pistols and anything
else is worth some serious nastiness. Skills are paramount in importance
and as such, most supermages don't do well in it (because they have usually
have low stats and/or skills, which reduces their usefulness in the
campaign). Spells could be useful (very) in this campaign, but actual
thinking by players improves the game drastically as opposed to "I got 4
successes with (whatever) spell, so what do I know now?".

-------------------------------------
"I was thinking of the immortal words
of Socrates, who said: I drank what?"
-- Real Genius
-------------------------------------
TopCat at the bottom...

From:	Peter David Boddy <pdboddy@****.carleton.ca>
Subject:	Re: Quickened spells and Horrors.
Date:	Sat, 11 May 96 18:26:36 EDT

Message no. 48 TopCat writes:
> Our runs were (that campaign has died now) handled almost exclusively by
> samurai and physads. I know this isn't typical, but we managed to handle
> magical opposition fairly well and butcher non-magical assets. Butcher is
> probably a bad choice of word, because we used gel rounds, narcojects
> (usually loaded with Gamma-Scopolamine), or tasers whenever we could. The
> sack of blood mage and worthless shaman were little more than karma-leeches
> and bodies to drag out.

In our campaign, the Gm tailors adventures, and the world to a point, to
our groups advantages and disadvantages. If we are magic heavy, there are
more magical foes. If we are 'light' in the magic department, there are
less magical foes. We won't meet the magical encounters in the Sprawl
book, the only magical things would be in big runs.

> With my ongoing campaign, people get hassled for heavy pistols and anything
> else is worth some serious nastiness. Skills are paramount in importance

It all depends on where you are going. Bellview you say? Don't bother
bringing anything that can classify as a weapon. Those people pay through
the nose for 'no worries, no trogs, no violence'. Redmonds, on the other
hand, you'd better have at least an SMG, or you're likely to get jumped.

Pete

Pete aka Spitfire
Test your might...
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Peter David Boddy
Carleton University
Email address: pdboddy@****.carleton.ca
Email address: bx955@*******.carleton.ca
----------------------------------------------------------------------

From:	TopCat <topcat@******.net>
Subject:	Re: Quickened spells and Horrors.
Date:	Sat, 11 May 1996 19:36:09 -0500

Message no. 49 >In our campaign, the Gm tailors adventures, and the world to a point, to
>our groups advantages and disadvantages. If we are magic heavy, there are
>more magical foes. If we are 'light' in the magic department, there are
>less magical foes. We won't meet the magical encounters in the Sprawl
>book, the only magical things would be in big runs.

Herein lies one of the keys of successful shadowrunning and game enjoyment.
The players, gamemaster, and characters must combine to create truly
entertaining runs. The death of several minor campaigns occurred almost
immediately after the groups decided to take a run for which they weren't
suited for (stealth ops for the combat team, combat ops for the stealth
team, riggers without vehicles or drones in the jungle, etc...). The runs
sucked, but would've been great if the right teams had gone on them. Since
then we've realized that this must nearly always be the case...why?

Well, no Johnson in his right mind would hire a kill-'em-all team to go on a
stealth operation. Nor would they send a weak team to fight mercenaries.
Nor would they send riggers without their toys into the jungle. Only bad
things can happen in those situations.

The main problem we had there was GM's who would make one run, then take the
group (whichever one) through it. More often than not it would've been a
great run for another group, but became a nightmare for players and GM both
when the group just couldn't fit to the run. Which is why the only
surviving campaign is the detective campaign, which is hideously malleable
and always falls within the capabilities and interests of the players and
gamemaster.

>> With my ongoing campaign, people get hassled for heavy pistols and anything
>> else is worth some serious nastiness. Skills are paramount in importance

>It all depends on where you are going. Bellview you say? Don't bother
>bringing anything that can classify as a weapon. Those people pay through
>the nose for 'no worries, no trogs, no violence'. Redmonds, on the other
>hand, you'd better have at least an SMG, or you're likely to get jumped.

As I mentioned, this is in a detective-based low-power campaign. So big
guns are a bad thing to have around anywhere. One detective carries a Super
Warhawk loaded with gel rounds, the other carries a Ceska vz/120. That's
all the weaponry they have. Well, not all. One has killing hands and the
other is known to wear shock gloves from time to time. They've both got
licenses for their weapons and are known by Lone Star (in a good way) so
they get by with what they have. If things go decently, they won't have to
pull their pistols at all during a job.

-------------------------------------
"I was thinking of the immortal words
of Socrates, who said: I drank what?"
-- Real Genius
-------------------------------------
TopCat at the bottom...

From:	Tom Pendergrast <pendergr@***.EDU>
Subject:	Re: Quickened spells and Horrors.
Date:	Sat, 11 May 1996 19:04:16 -0700 (PDT)

Message no. 50 > >(Personally, I'd have to be worried about a group that _usually_ carries
> >around a Panther Assault Cannon (or an LMG or a sniper rifle... *sigh*
> >some people are munchkins))
>
> It's munchkin to have a PAC or an LMG, but a high force manabolt and 10
> grades of initiation isn't? Sounds like a serious case of mageness going
> around the list...

((Hokay... hold on... first off, this mage earned every bit of Karma that
he spent on his initiation. Second, whatever cash he may have had,
(which wasn't much), couln't be spent on new guns and 'ware, like a
sammie can. Third, the entire thing was roleplayed, and took over two
years of real-time (eight of game time). Can anyone honestly say that
they actually roleplay these cyber monsters? And yeah, it is a little
strange to carry around a cannon... does anyone stop to think how
fraggin' obvious these things are? I mean a cannon is worth at least to
carloads of LS and a chopper or two... a mage doesn't get shot on sight
for knowing how to cast a manabolt-9. And something else eveyone seems
to be forgetting: there is a time and a place for everything in SRII.
You don't just walk down the street with your LMG slung over your
shoulder. Think of just a little realism folks... you truly are a
munchkin if you think you can get away with you PAC like that... and why
ISN'T a grade 10 initiate munchkinous? Because the whole thing was a
slow, gradual build, moderated by the GM, and COMPLETELY JUSTIFIED...

sorry if my tone got just a bit warm there... just returning
words in kind...

---Tom---

Message no. 51 On Fri, 10 May 1996, Valerie A Olson wrote:

>
>
> On Sat, 11 May 1996, Robert Watkins wrote:
>
> > >|You're talking about Harlequin's Back right, where the PC's are sent an a
> > >|quest to some meta-planes where their equipnent is changed for each period?
> > >|What was he carrying in the first world you visited, a siege engine?
> > >
> > >That only happened in the metaplanes themselves. The first place they went
> > >was the "divide" where the horrors were about to start crossing
the bridge.
> > >The characters still have their weapons there......
> >
> > Yeah, but his quote is still valid... the characters only had the weapons
> > that they _usually_ have with them, and it is these same weapons that
> > transform when you move to the metaplanes.
> >
> > (Personally, I'd have to be worried about a group that _usually_ carries
> > around a Panther Assault Cannon (or an LMG or a sniper rifle... *sigh*
> > some people are munchkins))
> >
> HEY! I take offence at that! The way I figure it, a troll considering
> his size, would have as little trouble with an assualt canon, as a human
> would have with a rifle/shotgun. No-one complains about a human carrying
> a shotgun on a run, but if a troll carries an assualt canon he's a
> munchkin! ( where does that come from by the way? ) I don't think enough
> people take size into consideration in this game, e.g. how does a troll
> fit those enormouse fingers into the tiny little trigger guard on his
> gun? Personally I solve it by cutting the trigger guard off my guns,
> alternately I guess you could have the gun customised. I also have a probelem
> with the quick-draw rules; the book states that something can only be
> quick-drawn if something is in a holster, and is pistol-sized. I argue that
> a large, heavy pistol on a dwarf would be no larger than a shotgun on a
> troll, so why couldn't a troll fit a shotgun in a shoulder holster (he is,
> like, 3 metres tall) and quick-draw it?? The answer, cause the rules don't
> take size into account!
>

Yeah, concealability rules are kinda wierd in Shadowrun... We had a
problem in our group with a street sammie carrying an AK-98 EVERYWHERE.
He claimed he kept it under his long coat. We let it slide for a while,
but got tired of him claiming that he had it in increasingly absurd
situations ("We've been walking through high security neighborhood, and
you have an assault rifle under your long coat?") Lone Star recently
relieved him of his assault cannon, though... I could have probably made
his life more difficult, but I didn't... don't know why...

|\ /\ |\ | |\
|/ \/ | \ |\ | \
|\ /\ | |/ \ |
|/ / \ | | \|

http://weber.u.washington.edu/~bolthy
"Remember: Heaven is Blue. Tomorrow, the world."
-Head of the Blue Meanies

Message no. 52 On Sat, 11 May 1996, TopCat wrote:

> >(Personally, I'd have to be worried about a group that _usually_ carries
> >around a Panther Assault Cannon (or an LMG or a sniper rifle... *sigh*
> >some people are munchkins))
>
> It's munchkin to have a PAC or an LMG, but a high force manabolt and 10
> grades of initiation isn't? Sounds like a serious case of mageness going
> around the list...
>

I don't think it's munchkin to have heavy artillary (coming from someone
with an armored SAAB Dynamite with a PAC mounted on his pop-up turret
=)). But spells are just a little bit more concealable... When our
group gets frisked and have to check their weapons, our physad holds up
two fingers on each hand, and asks, "Do they take my five-shooters??
Huh? Do they try?"

In case you don't get it, he's talking about his distance strike ability
(which he decided recently was too powerful, and offered to give it up...
Now he has to figure out what to do with all those points...)

|\ /\ |\ | |\
|/ \/ | \ |\ | \
|\ /\ | |/ \ |
|/ / \ | | \|

http://weber.u.washington.edu/~bolthy
"Remember: Heaven is Blue. Tomorrow, the world."
-Head of the Blue Meanies

Message no. 53 >> (Personally, I'd have to be worried about a group that _usually_ carries
>> around a Panther Assault Cannon (or an LMG or a sniper rifle...
So, people shouldn't use the weapons in the book? Do you go up to your
players and say "You can't use that! It's unbalancing for gods sake!"

>> *sigh*
>> some people are munchkins))
And some people ((put everything they say in double paranthesis))

Mike Broadwater
http://www.olemiss.edu/~neon
"You only need to things in this world. WD40 to make things go, and duct
tape to make them stop."

Message no. 54 >Can anyone honestly say that
>they actually roleplay these cyber monsters?

>and why
>ISN'T a grade 10 initiate munchkinous? Because the whole thing was a
>slow, gradual build, moderated by the GM, and COMPLETELY JUSTIFIED...
>
> sorry if my tone got just a bit warm there... just returning
>words in kind...
>
>
> ---Tom---

Are you saying that the people who role play dealing with corps, role play
their characters, build up a history, work on building a good rep with their
character, and work at getting high grade cyber are less "worthy"? Do you
think no one can role play anything but a mage? Are you that arrogant? I
mean, a get haughty, but I never presume that someone's character was
_given_ all his stuff. I role played my sam for 5 years of real time and 7
of game, and thats why he got to be where he was. Now, are you saying that
that takes less than what you put into it? I'd like to hear you say it.
Either admit that a sam can be role played up to a power level, as any
character can, or be hypocritical and say that only you and your mage can
be. Which is it? There's as much role playing to saying "I went and bought
a..." as there is to "I spend x amount of karma and wrote a thesis, here is
my role, gimme my new initiate grade." But a good roleplayer will work at
it more than that.

And on the lots of karma vs. lots of money for character build up, it all
depends on GM. I had a GM, and how I GM, it's easier to get money than
Karma. My universe just hands it out slower than corps hand out cash.

Mike Broadwater
http://www.olemiss.edu/~neon
"You only need to things in this world. WD40 to make things go, and duct
tape to make them stop."

Message no. 55 >At 7:15 Uhr 11.05.96, TopCat wrote:
>>It's munchkin to have a PAC or an LMG, but a high force manabolt and 10
>>grades of initiation isn't? Sounds like a serious case of mageness going
>>around the list...
>What's the difference between a manabolt and a LMG/PAC/assembled Sniper
>Rifle? Hm? Can you tell me or are you so magophob you can't even think
>about spells?
>Well, I give you the answer: You can't see 'em until you use 'em.
>When they are used, the opposition should react equally (usually, drop
>dead). But having a manabolt with you - some memories in ya brain -
>is less obvious then carrying a LMG through Seattle's Streets - until
>someone invents a Read-Ya-Brain-O'mat, of course. :-)
>
> Sascha

What does that have to do with anything? The question is why is one
muchkinous (good god I _hate_ that term) and the other not? Why is a PAC of
LMG -bad- and a force 10 manabolt -good-? From your description, I'd say
the mana bolt was the bad one, not the LMG. Of course they both have
advantages over the other, but it equals out, so why is a PAC bad, but a
mana bolt ok? Or are they basically equal?

Mike Broadwater
http://www.olemiss.edu/~neon
"You only need to things in this world. WD40 to make things go, and duct
tape to make them stop."

Message no. 56 On Mon, 13 May 1996, Mike Broadwater wrote:

>
> Are you saying that the people who role play dealing with corps, role play
> their characters, build up a history, work on building a good rep with their
> character, and work at getting high grade cyber are less "worthy"? Do you
> think no one can role play anything but a mage? Are you that arrogant? I
> mean, a get haughty, but I never presume that someone's character was
> _given_ all his stuff. I role played my sam for 5 years of real time and 7
> of game, and thats why he got to be where he was. Now, are you saying that
> that takes less than what you put into it? I'd like to hear you say it.
> Either admit that a sam can be role played up to a power level, as any
> character can, or be hypocritical and say that only you and your mage can
> be. Which is it? There's as much role playing to saying "I went and bought
> a..." as there is to "I spend x amount of karma and wrote a thesis, here is
> my role, gimme my new initiate grade." But a good roleplayer will work at
> it more than that.
>

You played 5 years RL and only 7 years passed in the game?! GRRK! We've
been playing our latest campaign for maybe a couple months RL, and
already we've gone through over three years game time. Between sammies
getting shot up, mages learning spells, and various cyberware
installations, we typically have a month or two minimum of game time
between adventures... *shudder*

|\ /\ |\ | |\
|/ \/ | \ |\ | \
|\ /\ | |/ \ |
|/ / \ | | \|

http://weber.u.washington.edu/~bolthy
"Remember: Heaven is Blue. Tomorrow, the world."
-Head of the Blue Meanies

Message no. 57 >Between sammies
>getting shot up, mages learning spells, and various cyberware
>installations, we typically have a month or two minimum of game time
>between adventures... *shudder*

Between SR and all the other games I play, we typically have 1-2 months
between game sessions.

Mike Broadwater
http://www.olemiss.edu/~neon
"You only need to things in this world. WD40 to make things go, and duct
tape to make them stop."

Message no. 58 >>>(Personally, I'd have to be worried about a group that _usually_ carries
>>>around a Panther Assault Cannon (or an LMG or a sniper rifle... *sigh*
>>>some people are munchkins))

>> It's munchkin to have a PAC or an LMG, but a high force manabolt and 10
>> grades of initiation isn't? Sounds like a serious case of mageness going
>> around the list...

>((Hokay... hold on... first off, this mage earned every bit of Karma that
>he spent on his initiation. Second, whatever cash he may have had,
>(which wasn't much), couln't be spent on new guns and 'ware, like a
>sammie can.

Why couldn't it? This I gotta hear...

Also, your GM handed out enough karma for a character to get that obscenely
powerful, but they don't get any cash for the runs? That's a magekin GM.

>Third, the entire thing was roleplayed, and took over two
>years of real-time (eight of game time). Can anyone honestly say that
>they actually roleplay these cyber monsters?

I roleplayed TopCat for quite a while...stopped because it wasn't fun to be
that powerful when the rest of the characters weren't. If the opposition
was tough enough for TopCat, it'd kill the others. If it was tough for the
others, he'd waltz through it before they ever got to fire. So I stopped
playing him and kept writing about him because it was interesting.

>And yeah, it is a little
>strange to carry around a cannon... does anyone stop to think how
>fraggin' obvious these things are? I mean a cannon is worth at least to
>carloads of LS and a chopper or two... a mage doesn't get shot on sight
>for knowing how to cast a manabolt-9.

Panther's real obvious. But once you're known to use a mega-powerful
manabolt, people will remember it. ("Isn't that the guy who melted Lenny
last week?" "Yep, better get the cybermonster over here")

>And something else eveyone seems
>to be forgetting: there is a time and a place for everything in SRII.
>You don't just walk down the street with your LMG slung over your
>shoulder. Think of just a little realism folks... you truly are a
>munchkin if you think you can get away with you PAC like that... and why
>ISN'T a grade 10 initiate munchkinous? Because the whole thing was a
>slow, gradual build, moderated by the GM, and COMPLETELY JUSTIFIED...

Never have just thought I could walk around the street with artillery.
Never have done it. It'd be stupid. Almost as stupid as to think that
people wouldn't recognize the man who actually broke through to the 10th
grade of initiation and can throw magic the likes of which ole Howling
Coyote'd have to smile at.

-------------------------------------
"I was thinking of the immortal words
of Socrates, who said: I drank what?"
-- Real Genius
-------------------------------------
TopCat at the bottom...

Message no. 59 At 20:42 Uhr 13.05.96, Mike Broadwater wrote:
>What does that have to do with anything? The question is why is one
>muchkinous (good god I _hate_ that term) and the other not? Why is a PAC of
>LMG -bad- and a force 10 manabolt -good-? From your description, I'd say
>the mana bolt was the bad one, not the LMG. Of course they both have
>advantages over the other, but it equals out, so why is a PAC bad, but a
>mana bolt ok? Or are they basically equal?
Um, either I misinterpreted you, or vice versa. What I wanted to say was
that it is some obscure style of gaming - in my opinion, of course -
when someone runs around with obvious, military grade equipment. And
spells are not obvious (Heck, in our game even LS doesn't have Assault
Rifles on normal patrol!)

Sascha

--
+---___---------+----------------------------------------+--------------------+
| / / _______ | Jhary-a-Conel aka Sascha Pabst |The one who does not|
| / /_/ ____/ |Sascha.Pabst@**********.Uni-Oldenburg.de| learn from history |
| \___ __/ | | is bound to live |
|==== \_/ ======| *Wearing hats is just a way of life* | through it again. |
|LOGOUT FASCISM!| - Me | |
+------------- http://www.informatik.uni-oldenburg.de/~jhary -----------------+

Message no. 60 >Are you saying that the people who role play dealing with corps, role play
>their characters, build up a history, work on building a good rep with their
>character, and work at getting high grade cyber are less "worthy"? Do you
>think no one can role play anything but a mage? Are you that arrogant? I
>mean, a get haughty, but I never presume that someone's character was
>_given_ all his stuff. I role played my sam for 5 years of real time and 7
>of game, and thats why he got to be where he was. Now, are you saying that
>that takes less than what you put into it? I'd like to hear you say it.
>Either admit that a sam can be role played up to a power level, as any
>character can, or be hypocritical and say that only you and your mage can
>be. Which is it? There's as much role playing to saying "I went and bought
>a..." as there is to "I spend x amount of karma and wrote a thesis, here is
>my role, gimme my new initiate grade." But a good roleplayer will work at
>it more than that.

Amen, Brother Broadwater! Preach on! ;)

Think he'll figure it out after this one?

-------------------------------------
"I was thinking of the immortal words
of Socrates, who said: I drank what?"
-- Real Genius
-------------------------------------
TopCat at the bottom...

Message no. 61 > What does that have to do with anything? The question is why is one
> muchkinous (good god I _hate_ that term) and the other not? Why is a PAC of
> LMG -bad- and a force 10 manabolt -good-? From your description, I'd say
> the mana bolt was the bad one, not the LMG. Of course they both have
> advantages over the other, but it equals out, so why is a PAC bad, but a
> mana bolt ok? Or are they basically equal?

Think of realism for a second, (yes I realize that force-X spels are hard
to get...) in general, it is more likely that you are going to get away
with carrying a spell, --which cannot be detected by any means, (except by
assensing to find out if the person's a mage)-- than a cannon, which is
huge and easily recognizable...

---Tom---

Message no. 62 > >((Hokay... hold on... first off, this mage earned every bit of Karma that
> >he spent on his initiation. Second, whatever cash he may have had,
> >(which wasn't much), couln't be spent on new guns and 'ware, like a
> >sammie can.

> Why couldn't it? This I gotta hear...
>
> Also, your GM handed out enough karma for a character to get that obscenely
> powerful, but they don't get any cash for the runs? That's a magekin GM.

((Is it just me, or do people just love putting words into my mouth.
<Again> The mage in questin was not mine. My char in that group had
more karma and more cash than the mage. He has nearly two million in
cyber/bioware (but has an ess of 4.0) The cash that the mage got usually
went to helping out my char (and the others), because it was nt worth it
to go out and buy stuff like foci... (which he had to end up making
himself)... And no, the GM in question does not prefer mages... he is a
cyber and decker man...))

> I roleplayed TopCat for quite a while...stopped because it wasn't fun to be
> that powerful when the rest of the characters weren't.

((How did you get that way? Were you handed extra stuff, or did you
transfer the char from another campaign? (The latter of which is
perfectly acceptable, so long as the char fits into the new one)))

> Panther's real obvious. But once you're known to use a mega-powerful
> manabolt, people will remember it. ("Isn't that the guy who melted Lenny
> last week?" "Yep, better get the cybermonster over here")

((If you are recognizable like that, you have screwed up somewhere and
are dogmeat...))

> Never have just thought I could walk around the street with artillery.
> Never have done it. It'd be stupid. Almost as stupid as to think that
> people wouldn't recognize the man who actually broke through to the 10th
> grade of initiation and can throw magic the likes of which ole Howling
> Coyote'd have to smile at.

((Aint being secretive and careful grand?))

---Tom---

Message no. 63 >((Is it just me, or do people just love putting words into my mouth.

It's just you. They're your words. Unless some nasty person sends email in
your name from time to time...

><Again> The mage in questin was not mine. My char in that group had
>more karma and more cash than the mage. He has nearly two million in
>cyber/bioware (but has an ess of 4.0) The cash that the mage got usually
>went to helping out my char (and the others), because it was nt worth it
>to go out and buy stuff like foci... (which he had to end up making
>himself)... And no, the GM in question does not prefer mages... he is a
>cyber and decker man...))

The GM may like to play cybered people more, but from what I'd seen you type
he lets mages run rampant through the camapign. Now, he may let everyone
run rampant through the campaign, so it might actually be balanced. But I
haven't seen any posts along those lines from you.

>> I roleplayed TopCat for quite a while...stopped because it wasn't fun to be
>> that powerful when the rest of the characters weren't.

>((How did you get that way? Were you handed extra stuff, or did you
>transfer the char from another campaign? (The latter of which is
>perfectly acceptable, so long as the char fits into the new one)))

I picked up a copy of SRII and within an hour I knew how to powergame it.
TopCat was powergamed at creation. From there I started writing and doing
little side runs with the GM, because I wasn't happy powergaming. I used
the karma to build up skills that reflected what I had written and what I
had done, as well as to even out my previous min/maxing. After about 6
months of this, I was still ahead of the rest of the team power-wise, and I
had more peripheral skills than them as well. That's when he got retired.

>> Panther's real obvious. But once you're known to use a mega-powerful
>> manabolt, people will remember it. ("Isn't that the guy who melted Lenny
>> last week?" "Yep, better get the cybermonster over here")

>((If you are recognizable like that, you have screwed up somewhere and
>are dogmeat...))

Spell signatures.

>> Never have just thought I could walk around the street with artillery.
>> Never have done it. It'd be stupid. Almost as stupid as to think that
>> people wouldn't recognize the man who actually broke through to the 10th
>> grade of initiation and can throw magic the likes of which ole Howling
>> Coyote'd have to smile at.

>((Aint being secretive and careful grand?))

There's always those who're sneakier and more perceptive. Unless you get to
get away with it.

-------------------------------------
"I was thinking of the immortal words
of Socrates, who said: I drank what?"
-- Real Genius
-------------------------------------
TopCat at the bottom...

Message no. 64 Dr. Bolthy von Schotz writes:
>
> You played 5 years RL and only 7 years passed in the game?! GRRK! We've
> been playing our latest campaign for maybe a couple months RL, and
> already we've gone through over three years game time. Between sammies
> getting shot up, mages learning spells, and various cyberware
> installations, we typically have a month or two minimum of game time
> between adventures... *shudder*
>

I second that. I just joined a new campaign, and have played for about a
month. Seven months have gone by in the game. Though I think his group
might not meet as often as mine.

Pete

Pete aka Spitfire
Test your might...
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Peter David Boddy
Carleton University
Email address: pdboddy@****.carleton.ca
Email address: bx955@*******.carleton.ca
----------------------------------------------------------------------

Message no. 65 >You played 5 years RL and only 7 years passed in the game?! GRRK! We've
>been playing our latest campaign for maybe a couple months RL, and
>already we've gone through over three years game time. Between sammies
>getting shot up, mages learning spells, and various cyberware
>installations, we typically have a month or two minimum of game time
>between adventures... *shudder*

It depends how frequent your sessions are and how long they go for. It
also depends on what you're playing. For example, my current group has
been kicking around now for about 8 months, and we've done 13 in game
time. (Okay, so 2 months of that was HB). It depends.

(OTH, when I played in highschool, with about 15 hours a week, we did 5
years in one).

--
*************************************************************************
* .--_ # "My opinions may have changed, but not the fact *
* _-0(#)) # that I'm right." -- Old Fortune Saying *
* @__ )/ # *
* )=(===__==,= # Robert Watkins <---> robertdw@*******.com.au *
* {}== \--==--`= # *
* ,_) \ # "A friend is someone who watches the same *
* L_===__)=, # TV programs as you" *
*************************************************************************

Message no. 66 >Think of realism for a second, (yes I realize that force-X spels are hard
>to get...) in general, it is more likely that you are going to get away
>with carrying a spell, --which cannot be detected by any means, (except by
>assensing to find out if the person's a mage)-- than a cannon, which is
>huge and easily recognizable...

It's also far more likely that you could GET a PAC then you could a Force
10 spell, for the same reason deckers should find Rating 12-15 programs
hard to get.

--
* *
/_\ "A friend is someone who likes the same TV programs you do" /_\
{~._.~} "Eternal nothingness is fine if you happen {~._.~}
( Y ) to be dressed for it." -- Woody Allen ( Y )
()~*~() Robert Watkins robertdw@*******.com.au ()~*~()
(_)-(_) (_)-(_)

Message no. 67 TopCat said on 16:55/13 May 96...

> >((Hokay... hold on... first off, this mage earned every bit of Karma that
> >he spent on his initiation. Second, whatever cash he may have had,
> >(which wasn't much), couln't be spent on new guns and 'ware, like a
> >sammie can.
>
> Why couldn't it? This I gotta hear...
>
> Also, your GM handed out enough karma for a character to get that obscenely
> powerful, but they don't get any cash for the runs? That's a magekin GM.

Our magicians usually have lots of spare cash lying around, while the
other types spend it all. There's not all *that* much you can spend money
on as a magician without also having to invest Karma. I think my Karma
awards are a bit on the low side, while the money is on the high side,
though.

--
Gurth@******.nl - http://www.xs4all.nl/~gurth/index.html
Just kidding. Maybe...
-> NERPS Project Leader & Unofficial Shadowrun Guru <-
-> The Character Mortuary: http://huizen.dds.nl/~mortuary/mortuary.html <-

-----BEGIN GEEK CODE BLOCK-----
Version 3.1:
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Y PGP- t(+) 5+ X++ R+++>$ tv+(++) b++@ DI? D+ G(++) e h! !r(---) y?
------END GEEK CODE BLOCK------

Message no. 68 >>> (Personally, I'd have to be worried about a group that _usually_ carries
>>> around a Panther Assault Cannon (or an LMG or a sniper rifle...
>So, people shouldn't use the weapons in the book? Do you go up to your
>players and say "You can't use that! It's unbalancing for gods sake!"

No. What I do is play the game. If you _usually_ carry a Panther Assault
Cannon, then you _usually_ get shot down in the street for carrying an
obvious heavy weapon in downtown. What do you do? Let them go into
high-class restaurants in battle-dress with light machine guns slung over
their backs?

>>> *sigh*
>>> some people are munchkins))
>And some people ((put everything they say in double paranthesis))

No, I indent. (eg, this is the first level (and this is the second), and
then I close them afterwards). A habit I picked up from programming.

The double parentheses guy is someone else... and he does it because his
mailer doesn't process a "quote" marker properly.

--
* *
/_\ "A friend is someone who likes the same TV programs you do" /_\
{~._.~} "Eternal nothingness is fine if you happen {~._.~}
( Y ) to be dressed for it." -- Woody Allen ( Y )
()~*~() Robert Watkins robertdw@*******.com.au ()~*~()
(_)-(_) (_)-(_)

Message no. 69 @ >>> (Personally, I'd have to be worried about a group that _usually_ carries
@
@ >>> around a Panther Assault Cannon (or an LMG or a sniper rifle...
@ >So, people shouldn't use the weapons in the book? Do you go up to your
@ >players and say "You can't use that! It's unbalancing for gods sake!"
@
@ No. What I do is play the game. If you _usually_ carry a Panther Assault
@ Cannon, then you _usually_ get shot down in the street for carrying an
@ obvious heavy weapon in downtown. What do you do? Let them go into
@ high-class restaurants in battle-dress with light machine guns slung over
@ their backs?

Tried that once. My character was as nervous as hell as there was
a series of killings and his friends where implicated. One morning
about 5 there was a knock on the door. Limbering up the LMG my
character called that the door was open. The door opened to reviel a
Lone Star Sarg. on the other side.

Andre'

-- We exist because you want us to, because you are
|__|__ afraid to fact the facts. We are what you fear
/\ /\ \ in the deep recesses of your soul, yourselves.
|\ /\ /| | It is there in the shadows of your soul and those
|/ \/ \| | of the street that we exist. Through the use of
\/__\/ might, magic, cunning, blood, sweat and tears we
protect you from your fears, from youselves, from
others and keep your utopia, not ours, intact.

Message no. 70 In message <199605131259.IAA06138@*****.itribe.net> mbroadwa@*******.glenayre.com
(Mike Broadwater) writes:
> So, people shouldn't use the weapons in the book? Do you go up to your
> players and say "You can't use that! It's unbalancing for gods sake!"

An excellent point. The PAC is as extreme as an Urban Renewal spell, and
should be as rarely used. That doesn't mean that support weapons - belt-fed
MGs, grenade launchers, missiles, et al - don't have a valid place, just
not a common one.

As usual, mostly it just depends on how the player handles it. "I carefully
replace the FN MAG-5 in its sealed canister and put it back behind the wall...
luckily I didn't need it this time." is fine by me. "I put the Panther into
its shoulder holster as I get off the bike and swagger into the Sheraton
lobby..." is going to provoke a slight reaction from the GM, mostly hysterical
laughter.

If you tell the gunbunnies that they cannot, ever, under any circumstances
use the Really Big Guns, then ban all spells with a base damage of Serious
or higher too :) Fair all round, right?

--
.Sig file under repair, new machine

paul@********.demon.co.uk Paul J. Adam

Message no. 71 >>>> (Personally, I'd have to be worried about a group that _usually_ carries
>>>> around a Panther Assault Cannon (or an LMG or a sniper rifle...
>>So, people shouldn't use the weapons in the book? Do you go up to your
>>players and say "You can't use that! It's unbalancing for gods sake!"
>
>No. What I do is play the game. If you _usually_ carry a Panther Assault
>Cannon, then you _usually_ get shot down in the street for carrying an
>obvious heavy weapon in downtown. What do you do? Let them go into
>high-class restaurants in battle-dress with light machine guns slung over
>their backs?

No, and I never said anything of the sort. The discussion was that a spell
is ok to have and their are no repurcussions, but that anyone who owns a PAC
is a "munchkin" or "power gamer". If my players don't role play well,
they'll get dicked, and they no it. If they want to try going into a
restaurant that way thats fine. Do you let your mage fire off spells in
public and then assume that LS won't call out their magical ass kickers? Do
any of your restaurants think about magical security, or is just all
physical? This wasn't about, can they carry it in downtown Seattle. Only a
fucking moron would think that they could, or that this is what the
discussion was about. It was about the force 10 mana bolt being "ok" gaming
wise and a PAC being "bad". Not bad to carry around, just bad to have.

Mike Broadwater
http://www.olemiss.edu/~neon
"You only need to things in this world. WD40 to make things go, and duct
tape to make them stop."

Message no. 72 On Mon, 13 May 1996, Mike Broadwater wrote:

> >Between sammies
> >getting shot up, mages learning spells, and various cyberware
> >installations, we typically have a month or two minimum of game time
> >between adventures... *shudder*
>
> Between SR and all the other games I play, we typically have 1-2 months
> between game sessions.
>

Ah... that makes a bit of sense considering we play every weekend,
sometimes twice...

|\ /\ |\ | |\
|/ \/ | \ |\ | \
|\ /\ | |/ \ |
|/ / \ | | \|

http://weber.u.washington.edu/~bolthy
"Remember: Heaven is Blue. Tomorrow, the world."
-Head of the Blue Meanies

Message no. 73 On Tue, 14 May 1996, Gurth wrote:

> TopCat said on 16:55/13 May 96...
>
> > >((Hokay... hold on... first off, this mage earned every bit of Karma that
> > >he spent on his initiation. Second, whatever cash he may have had,
> > >(which wasn't much), couln't be spent on new guns and 'ware, like a
> > >sammie can.
> >
> > Why couldn't it? This I gotta hear...
> >
> > Also, your GM handed out enough karma for a character to get that obscenely
> > powerful, but they don't get any cash for the runs? That's a magekin GM.
>
> Our magicians usually have lots of spare cash lying around, while the
> other types spend it all. There's not all *that* much you can spend money
> on as a magician without also having to invest Karma. I think my Karma
> awards are a bit on the low side, while the money is on the high side,
> though.
>

Sounds like my group... I'm struggling to get 25,000 more nuyen to get a med
facility, while our physad drives a milk truck to pay off his low
lifestyle while he's got 400,000+ stashed away...

|\ /\ |\ | |\
|/ \/ | \ |\ | \
|\ /\ | |/ \ |
|/ / \ | | \|

http://weber.u.washington.edu/~bolthy
"Remember: Heaven is Blue. Tomorrow, the world."
-Head of the Blue Meanies

Message no. 74 Paul J. Adam writes:
> If you tell the gunbunnies that they cannot, ever, under any circumstances
> use the Really Big Guns, then ban all spells with a base damage of Serious
> or higher too :) Fair all round, right?

Just to toot my own horn, so to speak, our group has a way of dealing with
this. No skill or spell cann start off higher than 6 right? (except for
concentrations and specializations). We allow any weapon of LMG or lower,
plus miniature grenade launchers, and regular sized grenades. If someone
want something heavier, then they have to spend game time to find it.
(Basically time and effort). If mages want force 7 or higher spells, they
either have to find someone to teach them, or they have to design and test
them. (Both of which take time and effort.) Usually the mage spends the
time and effort designing the spells him/herself, and the gun nuts only
get the BIG guns when they really need them. No arguments in our group.

Pete

Pete aka Spitfire
Test your might...
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Peter David Boddy
Carleton University
Email address: pdboddy@****.carleton.ca
Email address: bx955@*******.carleton.ca
----------------------------------------------------------------------

Message no. 75 > >Think of realism for a second, (yes I realize that force-X spels are hard
> >to get...) in general, it is more likely that you are going to get away
> >with carrying a spell, --which cannot be detected by any means, (except by
> >assensing to find out if the person's a mage)-- than a cannon, which is
> >huge and easily recognizable...
>
> It's also far more likely that you could GET a PAC then you could a Force
> 10 spell, for the same reason deckers should find Rating 12-15 programs
> hard to get.

All the mages that I have seen research their own spells after the
start... all the deckers I have seen write their own programs after the
start... I cant say I've seen a Sammie make their own cannon though...

---Tom---

Message no. 76 At 15:11 Uhr 14.05.96, Mike Broadwater wrote:
>[the discussion] was about the force 10 mana bolt being "ok" gaming
>wise and a PAC being "bad". Not bad to carry around, just bad to have.

... it is? Oooops.. maybe I was running in open doors. I understood
the last messages as 'it is equally (un-)intelligent to carry around
a heavy weapon then a high powered spell'.

Um... which side do I choose now? My shaman collected more the 10 Assault
Rifles, 2 Vindicators with motion triggers, and -let's see- yes, a Panther,
too... And, of course, his collection of Sniper Rifles (he collects 'em).
All well hidden in his safehouse, of course...

Sascha

--
+---___---------+----------------------------------------+--------------------+
| / / _______ | Jhary-a-Conel aka Sascha Pabst |The one who does not|
| / /_/ ____/ |Sascha.Pabst@**********.Uni-Oldenburg.de| learn from history |
| \___ __/ | | is bound to live |
|==== \_/ ======| *Wearing hats is just a way of life* | through it again. |
|LOGOUT FASCISM!| - Me | |
+------------- http://www.informatik.uni-oldenburg.de/~jhary -----------------+

Message no. 77 > Tried that once. My character was as nervous as hell as there was
> a series of killings and his friends where implicated. One morning
> about 5 there was a knock on the door. Limbering up the LMG my
> character called that the door was open. The door opened to reviel a
> Lone Star Sarg. on the other side.

((Look first. If you've got a low lifestyle, look through the peephole,
if you've got a mid or migher, you've probably got at least some
semblance of security, so there's probably a camera... and instead of an
LMG, a heavy pistol works nicely... and you can hide it from view when
you open the door <we've seen it in movies enough...))

---Tom---

Message no. 78 > >And some people ((put everything they say in double paranthesis))
>
> No, I indent. (eg, this is the first level (and this is the second), and
> then I close them afterwards). A habit I picked up from programming.
>
> The double parentheses guy is someone else... and he does it because his
> mailer doesn't process a "quote" marker properly.

((I'm the double parenthesis guy. Doesn't have anything to do with my
mailer... just a habit I guess... distinguishes my text from everything
else... espescially when we get replies to replies to replies to replies
with dozenzs of > > > > > > going...))

---Tom---

Message no. 79 >Our magicians usually have lots of spare cash lying around, while the
>other types spend it all. There's not all *that* much you can spend money
>on as a magician without also having to invest Karma. I think my Karma
>awards are a bit on the low side, while the money is on the high side,
>though.

Magicians could spend cash on...

1) libraries
2) labs
3) lifestyle
4) vehicles
5) equipment of all sorts
6) armor
7) initiatory groups
8) family
9) retirement
10) investments
11) fake id's
12) bribes
13) information
14) bodyguards

Well, there's 14 and there's dozens more to think of (though #5 is kind of a
catch-all). None of thsoe require karma of any amount and all are valid
personal expenses.

As a side note, our campaigns generally give out a little too much karma
(but make sure that it is spent according to what has been going on in the
campaign) while giving out little cash (after all expenses were recorded,
we'd end up with between 5-10K per run, per person).

-------------------------------------
"I was thinking of the immortal words
of Socrates, who said: I drank what?"
-- Real Genius
-------------------------------------
TopCat at the bottom...

Message no. 80 At 01:05 PM 5/14/96 GMT, Paul J. Adam wrote:
>If you tell the gunbunnies that they cannot, ever, under any circumstances
>use the Really Big Guns, then ban all spells with a base damage of Serious
>or higher too :) Fair all round, right?

And once again, the man proves why he's one of the Last of the
Samurai/Mohicans ;)

-------------------------------------
"I was thinking of the immortal words
of Socrates, who said: I drank what?"
-- Real Genius
-------------------------------------
TopCat at the bottom...

Message no. 81 Tom Pendergrast wrote:
|
|
|
|> Tried that once. My character was as nervous as hell as there was
|> a series of killings and his friends where implicated. One morning
|> about 5 there was a knock on the door. Limbering up the LMG my
|> character called that the door was open. The door opened to reviel a
|> Lone Star Sarg. on the other side.
|
|((Look first. If you've got a low lifestyle, look through the peephole,
|if you've got a mid or migher, you've probably got at least some
|semblance of security, so there's probably a camera... and instead of an
|LMG, a heavy pistol works nicely... and you can hide it from view when
|you open the door <we've seen it in movies enough...))

This reminds me of an interlude I once ran for a player. In one of the
source books a remark is made about a game show called "Knock Knock" where
the contestents are contacted at home to play along with the contestent in
the studio. If the team wins they get a lot of nifty prizes. But if they
lose the guy at home is in big trouble, because a team of thugs comes
crashing in and trashes his pad.

So the PC is sitting at home and the phone rings. It's Knock Knock and
they've chosen him to play along. I've got a list of SR related trivia
questions ready and start to fire away. The player wasn't up on SR trivia
and lost pretty badly. Niether the player nor the PC had ever heard of
Knock Knock and so had no forewarning about what happened next. The PC did
have a rotary cannon hanging over his fireplace though (fully loaded of
course). He moved to the other side of town about 10 minutes after that.

The other fun trick to try with this is to have the thugs bust in on the PC
because they got the wrong apartment number.

-David

/^\/^\/^\/^\/^\/^\/^\/^\ dbuehrer@****.org /^\/^\/^\/^\/^\/^\/^\/^\
~~~~~~http://www.geocities.com/TimesSquare/1068/homepage.html~~~~~~

Message no. 82 > You forgot:
> Washington, DC
> Eastern Washington State
> Central California...
>
> Umm...=)

How about the Stink Fens of London?

Message no. 83 At 22:17 Uhr 14.05.96, Tom Pendergrast wrote:
>> Tried that once. My character was as nervous as hell as there was
>> a series of killings and his friends where implicated. One morning
>> about 5 there was a knock on the door. Limbering up the LMG my
>> character called that the door was open. The door opened to reviel a
>> Lone Star Sarg. on the other side.
>((Look first. If you've got a low lifestyle, look through the peephole,
>if you've got a mid or migher, you've probably got at least some
>semblance of security, so there's probably a camera... and instead of an
>LMG, a heavy pistol works nicely... and you can hide it from view when
>you open the door <we've seen it in movies enough...))

Good advice. And: When no camera is installed, install one yourself, at
least into the peephole. Nothing is such a good target as someone pressing
his/her eye to the hole, darken it.
Another advice: When nervous (with reason, not just paranoid), do not sleep
alone. Be with two or three of your chummers, one keeps watch, the other
sleep. In case of someone at the door, three cover, one opens ('lets see...
who has the shortes match this time... hm...')

Sascha

--
+---___---------+----------------------------------------+--------------------+
| / / _______ | Jhary-a-Conel aka Sascha Pabst |The one who does not|
| / /_/ ____/ |Sascha.Pabst@**********.Uni-Oldenburg.de| learn from history |
| \___ __/ | | is bound to live |
|==== \_/ ======| *Wearing hats is just a way of life* | through it again. |
|LOGOUT FASCISM!| - Me | |
+------------- http://www.informatik.uni-oldenburg.de/~jhary -----------------+

Message no. 84 > > TopCat said on 16:55/13 May 96...
> >
> > Our magicians usually have lots of spare cash lying around, while the
> > other types spend it all. There's not all *that* much you can spend money
> > on as a magician without also having to invest Karma. I think my Karma
> > awards are a bit on the low side, while the money is on the high side,
> > though.

I think I read somwhere on the net that the average payoff for a
standard run among GMs worldwide was 35,000 NY and 5.45 Good Karma. I
don't know if it's balanced in the long run, though, since I mostly lie
lower than this.

-Jonas Gabrielson, making gamers pay through the nose for Karma

Message no. 85 ---------------Original Message---------------

All the mages that I have seen research their own spells after the
start... all the deckers I have seen write their own programs after the
start... I cant say I've seen a Sammie make their own cannon though...

---Tom---

----------End of Original Message----------
Why not? Mages have magical theory. Deckers have some kind of
computer skill (I don't know what VR2 uses). Sammies have
build/repair firearms.

Patrick

Message no. 86 >
Sam designing guns.
>
> Why not? Mages have magical theory. Deckers have some kind of
> computer skill (I don't know what VR2 uses). Sammies have
> build/repair firearms.
>
The problems are you need machine shops, development etc. Handgun
technology has been pretty much stalled effectiveness wise for years.
(it's more a matter of the ratio, mass-caliber-range-silence etc
that you want that changes - have to ask one of the experts here for
details)
Folks generally want to build something better than the book stuff
which has been developed by corps and governments with masses of
experts and litrally decades of experience to draw on (never mind
facilities to blow your poor PC's mind with envy)
The reason programme design is not so far off is the development
rate, you cannot keep up without writing your own as even black
market disribution electronically is only so fast.
Spell likewise the technology curve is far behind.

Finally FASA provided rules ofr two and not the other. There would be
a case for designing guns from scrap (if you have to make your own
because you could not get them into ____ country) or if you want
something wierd or 'for one assination - dismatle do not reuse'
though but most players with requests don't want this.

> Patrick
>
Mark

Message no. 87 On Wed, 15 May 1996, Mark Steedman wrote:

>
> >
> Sam designing guns.
> >
> > Why not? Mages have magical theory. Deckers have some kind of
> > computer skill (I don't know what VR2 uses). Sammies have
> > build/repair firearms.
> >
> The problems are you need machine shops, development etc. Handgun
> technology has been pretty much stalled effectiveness wise for years.
> (it's more a matter of the ratio, mass-caliber-range-silence etc
> that you want that changes - have to ask one of the experts here for
> details)
> Folks generally want to build something better than the book stuff
> which has been developed by corps and governments with masses of
> experts and litrally decades of experience to draw on (never mind
> facilities to blow your poor PC's mind with envy)

<SNIP>
>
> Finally FASA provided rules ofr two and not the other. There would be
> a case for designing guns from scrap (if you have to make your own
> because you could not get them into ____ country) or if you want
> something wierd or 'for one assination - dismatle do not reuse'
> though but most players with requests don't want this.
>
> > Patrick
> >
> Mark
>
OTOH, FASA do give rules for customising weapons, and I can see no
reason a Sammie with b/r fire arms couldn't do that on his own. Provided
of course he has the requisite equipment.

Cheers,
The ROO-MAN.
via his wife.

Message no. 88 On Tue, 14 May 1996, Tom Pendergrast wrote:
> All the mages that I have seen research their own spells after the
> start... all the deckers I have seen write their own programs after the
> start... I cant say I've seen a Sammie make their own cannon though...
>

Firearmes (B/R) and an appropriate facility. =)

|\ /\ |\ | |\
|/ \/ | \ |\ | \
|\ /\ | |/ \ |
|/ / \ | | \|

http://weber.u.washington.edu/~bolthy
"Remember: Heaven is Blue. Tomorrow, the world."
-Head of the Blue Meanies

Message no. 89 On Tue, 14 May 1996, Russ Myrick wrote:

> > You forgot:
> > Washington, DC
> > Eastern Washington State
> > Central California...
> >
> > Umm...=)
>
> How about the Stink Fens of London?
>
>
>

How about France?

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|/ \/ | \ |\ | \
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http://weber.u.washington.edu/~bolthy
"Remember: Heaven is Blue. Tomorrow, the world."
-Head of the Blue Meanies

Message no. 90 >How about France?

Just in general, or a specific place? Me, I'm for France in general :)

Mike Broadwater
http://www.olemiss.edu/~neon
"An object at rest cannot be stopped! YEAH, BABY! YEAH!" - The Evil Midnight
Bomber What Bombs at Midnight.

Message no. 91 |
|>How about France?
|
|Just in general, or a specific place? Me, I'm for France in general :)

But.,.... but.... It's full of French.........

:)
--
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|Andrew Halliwell | a so called "puppet" of the queen mother, would |
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Message no. 92 >|
>|>How about France?
>|
>|Just in general, or a specific place? Me, I'm for France in general :)
>
>But.,.... but.... It's full of French.........
>
>:)

Oh, you're right. It's already full of whore..er..horrors :)

Mike Broadwater
http://www.olemiss.edu/~neon
"An object at rest cannot be stopped! YEAH, BABY! YEAH!" - The Evil Midnight
Bomber What Bombs at Midnight.

Message no. 93 In message <Chameleon.960515210303.PDL@*****.co.kr.dacom.co.kr>,
PDL@****.dacom.co.kr writes
>
>---------------Original Message---------------
>All the mages that I have seen research their own spells after the
>start... all the deckers I have seen write their own programs after the
>start... I cant say I've seen a Sammie make their own cannon though...
>----------End of Original Message----------
>Why not? Mages have magical theory. Deckers have some kind of
>computer skill (I don't know what VR2 uses). Sammies have
>build/repair firearms.

Let's just say that it isn't quite a case of "roll Firearms B/R, target
number 5, yep, you just built a Guardian." Vehicle B/R doesn't mean you
can design a car and build it...

There's not much scope for an individual at home to significantly
improve on well-designed firearms, other than by adding aftermarket
accessories.
--
Paul J. Adam

Turnpike evaluation. For Turnpike information, mailto:info@********.com

Message no. 94 > ---------------Original Message---------------
> All the mages that I have seen research their own spells after the
> start... all the deckers I have seen write their own programs after the
> start... I cant say I've seen a Sammie make their own cannon though...
> ---Tom---
> ----------End of Original Message----------

> Why not? Mages have magical theory. Deckers have some kind of
> computer skill (I don't know what VR2 uses). Sammies have
> build/repair firearms.
> Patrick

There are no hard and fast rules for it. SURE, the skill for it is out
there, but how do you handle it? Then theres getting the parts, getting
a real cannon to make sure that the one you are making is compatible with
others... (or you'd have to make your own ammo too!)... there is a lot of
question involved... but I can see it as something that can work...
(Hmmm... perhaps FASA would come out with rules for making your own
cybertoys and guns? I wouldn't count on it though...)

---Tom---

Message no. 95 On Wed, 15 May 1996, Mike Broadwater wrote:

> >How about France?
>
> Just in general, or a specific place? Me, I'm for France in general :)
>
>

The whole nation in general. Anyone remember TV Nation where they were
trying to talk the defense department into declaring war on france?

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http://weber.u.washington.edu/~bolthy
"Remember: Heaven is Blue. Tomorrow, the world."
-Head of the Blue Meanies

Message no. 96 Tom wrote: [Re: new gun design]

>
>There are no hard and fast rules for it. SURE, the skill for it is out
>there, but how do you handle it? Then theres getting the parts, getting
>a real cannon to make sure that the one you are making is compatible with
>others... (or you'd have to make your own ammo too!)... there is a lot of
>question involved... but I can see it as something that can work...
>(Hmmm... perhaps FASA would come out with rules for making your own
>cybertoys and guns? I wouldn't count on it though...)
>

Sure, let them try. Let them figure out the ammounts of matterials needed
for multiple production runs (after all, you have to test each variable
seperately (propellant, material/materials, shape and thats just for ammo)
I would say estimate the cost of making the product and multiply it by 200
to 300. Now, they need to spend the time actually designing, building,
testing and redesigning. For some projects this work can be split up and
done between runs, but others have to be monitored diligently. (I can't go
on a run now, I just started the decay rate tests on the nitro-triggers!!)

So after spending millions on reasearch, spent a year (on and off) working
on it, they roll their B/R skill. "Well no luck so far. Your new thermite
still burns at the same speed and temp as the standard stuff. Oh by the
way, an ex-merc friend of yours calls to tell you about Ares' Thermite II.
Spread it on like butter, then spray it with the activator solution so feat
it up. And it goes great with fresh baked bread."

(this doesn't stop my players, they see it as a chalange)

Piatro

Message no. 97 >
>
> > > TopCat said on 16:55/13 May 96...
> > >
> > > Our magicians usually have lots of spare cash lying around, while the
> > > other types spend it all. There's not all *that* much you can spend money
> > > on as a magician without also having to invest Karma. I think my Karma
> > > awards are a bit on the low side, while the money is on the high side,
> > > though.
>
> I think I read somwhere on the net that the average payoff for a
> standard run among GMs worldwide was 35,000 NY and 5.45 Good Karma. I
> don't know if it's balanced in the long run, though, since I mostly lie
> lower than this.
>
> -Jonas Gabrielson, making gamers pay through the nose for Karma
>
Ouch I usually give a few more karma than this usually about 7 karma
and the cash I give doesn't top 10,000 nuyen.

Love is the fine line between pleasure and pain

Except when you're into S&M when it's just pain! pain! pain!

Haloween Jack

Message no. 98 > |
> |>How about France?
> |
> |Just in general, or a specific place? Me, I'm for France in general :)
>
> But.,.... but.... It's full of French.........
>
> :)
> --
Mind you the same could be said about the Englishmen by the Welsh.

:]
:]
:[

Love is the fine line between pleasure and pain

Except when you're into S&M when it's just pain! pain! pain!

Haloween Jack

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