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Message no. 1
From: Luke Kendall <luke@********.CANON.OZ.AU>
Subject: Quickening + Anchoring = Invulnerability
Date: Mon, 4 Jul 1994 09:43:40 +1000
Once again, a rules problem. For a relatively low karma cost, an
initiated mage can quicken vast amounts of armour, and anchor lots
of Treat Deadly Wounds spells hooked up to a cheap bio-monitor.

Now, if this is standard practice for nasty mages in published FASA
modules, then they obviously want the world to workl like this.

If they don't, then maybe it means that this is something that they
didn't see.

Opinions?

luke
Message no. 2
From: Stainless Steel Rat <ratinox@***.NEU.EDU>
Subject: Re: Quickening + Anchoring = Invulnerability
Date: Sun, 3 Jul 1994 21:00:23 -0400
>>>>> "Luke" == Luke Kendall <luke@********.CANON.OZ.AU>
writes:

Luke> Once again, a rules problem. For a relatively low karma cost, an
Luke> initiated mage can quicken vast amounts of armour, and anchor lots of
Luke> Treat Deadly Wounds spells hooked up to a cheap bio-monitor.

Yeah, and you're a walking target for any astrally projecting mage who
wants to hellblast you and anyone around you. Quickenings can be grounded
through, just like spell locks, it's just harder to do.

--
Rat <ratinox@***.neu.edu> | "Good, bad... I'm the guy with the
gun."
http://www.ccs.neu.edu/home/ratinox | --Ashe, "Army of Darkness"
Message no. 3
From: Luke Kendall <luke@********.CANON.OZ.AU>
Subject: Re: Quickening + Anchoring = Invulnerability
Date: Mon, 4 Jul 1994 12:21:08 +1000
>>>>> "Luke" == Luke Kendall <luke@********.CANON.OZ.AU>
writes:

Luke> Once again, a rules problem. For a relatively low karma cost, an
Luke> initiated mage can quicken vast amounts of armour, and anchor lots of
Luke> Treat Deadly Wounds spells hooked up to a cheap bio-monitor.

Rat> Yeah, and you're a walking target for any astrally projecting mage who
Rat> wants to hellblast you and anyone around you. Quickenings can be grounded
Rat> through, just like spell locks, it's just harder to do.

So what? It does no damage because of your absurd armour and your enhanced
willpower. And even if it does, the Treat Deadly Wounds takes care of
the left-over light damage.

Likewise if you're hit by a missile.

Any _more_ opinions?

luke
Message no. 4
From: Stainless Steel Rat <ratinox@***.NEU.EDU>
Subject: Re: Quickening + Anchoring = Invulnerability
Date: Sun, 3 Jul 1994 22:28:33 -0400
>>>>> "Luke" == Luke Kendall <luke@********.CANON.OZ.AU>
writes:

Luke> Once again, a rules problem. For a relatively low karma cost, an
Luke> initiated mage can quicken vast amounts of armour, and anchor lots of
Luke> Treat Deadly Wounds spells hooked up to a cheap bio-monitor.

Rat> Yeah, and you're a walking target for any astrally projecting mage who
Rat> wants to hellblast you and anyone around you. Quickenings can be grounded
Rat> through, just like spell locks, it's just harder to do.

Luke> So what? It does no damage because of your absurd armour and your
Luke> enhanced willpower.

Not if I keep popping your quickenings. Once I bust through the last one,
you take whatever damage is left. And I can sit around in astral all day
and take my time, unless you want to come after me and leave all your
goodies behind :).

Luke> And even if it does, the Treat Deadly Wounds takes care of the
Luke> left-over light damage.

Those treat spells require being sustained over a period of time for the
effects to become "permanant" (I think 10 turns for treat). You don't get
the healing until that time is up. If those quickenings get popped before
then, you're screwed.

Luke> Likewise if you're hit by a missile.

Luke> Any _more_ opinions?

Plenty :)

--
Rat <ratinox@***.neu.edu> | I don't care; I want the Green Ranger's
http://www.ccs.neu.edu/home/ratinox | flute!
Message no. 5
From: Luke Kendall <luke@********.CANON.OZ.AU>
Subject: Re: Quickening + Anchoring = Invulnerability
Date: Mon, 4 Jul 1994 12:42:30 +1000
Rat> Not if I keep popping your quickenings. Once I bust through the last one,
Rat> you take whatever damage is left. And I can sit around in astral all day
Rat> and take my time, unless you want to come after me and leave all your
Rat> goodies behind :).

Hmm. With a large Rating spirit or elemental on guard (gurading the locks
or quickenings) this is not much of a problem. And if the mage has an
astral weapon with a reach advantage, he'll be only too pleased to leave
his body and beat the sh*t out of you astrally.

Which just means that the only way to take down a potent mage is with
another potent mage, or a group of mages making a concerted astral attack.
Which is ok, I guess. Certainly for the bad guys - that's expected. For
the players, with Superman as a buddy, well ...

Rat> Those treat spells require being sustained over a period of time for the
Rat> effects to become "permanant" (I think 10 turns for treat).

10 turns divided by the number of successes. TN 4; let's say 20 dice behind
the spell; hmmm. 1 turn.

Still, that's going to cause him troubles for a few seconds...

thanks,
luke
Message no. 6
From: Stainless Steel Rat <ratinox@***.NEU.EDU>
Subject: Re: Quickening + Anchoring = Invulnerability
Date: Sun, 3 Jul 1994 23:10:55 -0400
>>>>> "Luke" == Luke Kendall <luke@********.CANON.OZ.AU>
writes:

Rat> Not if I keep popping your quickenings. Once I bust through the last
Rat> one, you take whatever damage is left. And I can sit around in astral
Rat> all day and take my time, unless you want to come after me and leave
Rat> all your goodies behind :).
Luke> Hmm. With a large Rating spirit or elemental on guard (gurading the
Luke> locks or quickenings) this is not much of a problem.

More likely, if I were going after you that seriously I'd have backup of my
own to deal with your elementals or spirits. I'd likely help my backup take
down your reserves first, then go after you. Of course, if I were that
serious about taking you down, I'd also be tossing in physical threats just
to make you think twice about leaving the meat behind.

Luke> And if the mage has an astral weapon with a reach advantage, he'll be
Luke> only too pleased to leave his body and beat the sh*t out of you
Luke> astrally.

If you can catch me--range in astral space is kinda funny that way. I might
even be tempted to try to ground through your weapon focus while I'm at it
(probably not, though, you're quickenings make much better targets).

While you're physical and I'm astral I've got an advantage in speed and you
can't attack me. When you go astral the speed edge goes away and it comes
down to real ability. At worst it'd be an even fight unless I were totally
stupid to have gone after you in the first place :).

Luke> Which just means that the only way to take down a potent mage is with
Luke> another potent mage, or a group of mages making a concerted astral
Luke> attack.

This has almost always been the case, even with the first edition Shadowrun
without a Grimthingy around. BTW, the best defense against any astral atack
is to not carry around anything with a dual nature. Yeah, it means you're
less powerful in the physical world, but you're not vunlerable somewhere
else, where you might not be paying attention.

Luke> Which is ok, I guess. Certainly for the bad guys - that's expected.
Luke> For the players, with Superman as a buddy, well ...

If the players have Superman for a buddy you can be damn sure that the GM
is going to be throwing the likes of Lex Luthor and Sinestro at them.

Rat> Those treat spells require being sustained over a period of time for the
Rat> effects to become "permanant" (I think 10 turns for treat).
Luke> 10 turns divided by the number of successes. TN 4; let's say 20 dice
Luke> behind the spell; hmmm. 1 turn.r

Luke> Still, that's going to cause him troubles for a few seconds...

That's all it takes to kill you dead :).

--
Rat <ratinox@***.neu.edu> | "I'd rather be a pig than a
fascist."
http://www.ccs.neu.edu/home/ratinox | --Porco Rosso (The Crimson Pig)
Message no. 7
From: Ivy Ryan <ivyryan@***.EFN.ORG>
Subject: Re: Quickening + Anchoring = Invulnerability
Date: Mon, 4 Jul 1994 08:29:05 -0700
Hi Luke,
From what you wrote I get the idea that you are playing a mixed SRI/SRII
game. (Treat Deadly doesn't exist in SRII y'see, and anchoring doesn't exist
in SRI.)
On Mon, 4 Jul 1994, Luke Kendall wrote:

> >>>>> "Luke" == Luke Kendall
<luke@********.CANON.OZ.AU> writes:
>
> Luke> Once again, a rules problem. For a relatively low karma cost, an
>
> Rat> Yeah, and you're a walking target for any astrally projecting mage who
>
> So what? It does no damage because of your absurd armour and your enhanced
> willpower. And even if it does, the Treat Deadly Wounds takes care of
> the left-over light damage.


I have to deal with this kind of thing often, because of my players. So
here's a few hints. #1. Switch to SRII completely. Dump all of the old
SRI stuff.

#2. The anchored treat or heal spell only does so much, and it doesn't
get Karmic rerolls, so it's a non-problem if you enforce the rules.

#3. All the Armor spell gives a mage is more body dice. That isn't
enough help at all. Have an astral mage dump a Force 9 Powerball down
the quickening. The Astral mage's Target Number is the number of points
that were used to quicken the spell. So, even if the mage shrugs the
spell off, the quickening is gone. (Unless they quicken it at some high
number, like 18! I have a player who did. But it cost her 18 Karma to
do it.) If the quickening is that high, use ritual magic with a Force 10
Elemental area effect fire attack. In other words, burn the quickening,
then get the mage later.

> Likewise if you're hit by a missile.

Huge Body numbers can complicate things, but then again, Missiles and
Assault Cannons still work.

> Any _more_ opinions?

Nah, just things I had to work out to challenge players whose characters
had 350+ Karma POOLS.

Ivy
Message no. 8
From: Chris Ryan <chrisr@****.QUT.EDU.AU>
Subject: Re: Quickening + Anchoring = Invulnerability
Date: Tue, 5 Jul 1994 10:54:43 --1000
> Once again, a rules problem. For a relatively low karma cost, an
> initiated mage can quicken vast amounts of armour, and anchor lots
> of Treat Deadly Wounds spells hooked up to a cheap bio-monitor.
>
> Now, if this is standard practice for nasty mages in published FASA
> modules, then they obviously want the world to workl like this.
>
> If they don't, then maybe it means that this is something that they
> didn't see.

Wards are a real problem. Your quickened spell will fight the ward. No
matter the result, the ward's creator will know something's happened and
could possibly investigate. This is a bummer if you're trying to infiltrate
a site...

Chris

Chris Ryan | Earthdawn List: earthdawn@********.iquest.com
QDPI/QUT | (email me for subscription details)
Brisbane Qld Australia |
chrisr@****.qut.edu.au |
Message no. 9
From: Tim Skirvin <tskirvin@********.UNI.UIUC.EDU>
Subject: Re: Quickening + Anchoring = Invulnerability
Date: Tue, 5 Jul 1994 00:03:02 -0500
> 10 turns divided by the number of successes. TN 4; let's say 20
> dice behind the spell; hmmm. 1 turn.

Don't forget, it doesn't automatically heal all that much. You have
to allocate some of that time to the actual HEALING, too...

And 20 dice for that quickening? Bad things could happen, very
bad things, when it's cast...hmm. Force 6 drain on a treat...

-------------Tim Skirvin (tskirvin@********.uni.uiuc.edu-------------
"He's NOT a gibbering idiot - he's cured of gibbering, he's just an
idiot now." -- Jane, "Waiting for God"
Message no. 10
From: Tim Skirvin <tskirvin@********.UNI.UIUC.EDU>
Subject: Re: Quickening + Anchoring = Invulnerability
Date: Tue, 5 Jul 1994 00:06:00 -0500
> even be tempted to try to ground through your weapon focus while
> I'm at it (probably not, though, you're quickenings make much
> better targets).

While reading all this, I thought of something...

CAN you ground through quickenings? I thought that we went over this
a while back, and the consensus was that you could NOT...

(I'll look it up some time. My Grimoire's too far away to find right
now, though...)

-------------Tim Skirvin (tskirvin@********.uni.uiuc.edu-------------
"He's NOT a gibbering idiot - he's cured of gibbering, he's just an
idiot now." -- Jane, "Waiting for God"
Message no. 11
From: Luke Kendall <luke@********.CANON.OZ.AU>
Subject: Re: Quickening + Anchoring = Invulnerability
Date: Tue, 5 Jul 1994 13:33:31 +1000
Chris Ryan:

> Wards are a real problem. Your quickened spell will fight the ward. No
> matter the result, the ward's creator will know something's happened and
> could possibly investigate. This is a bummer if you're trying to infiltrate
> a site...

Very true. But it seems like a completely independent `problem' to me.

luke
Message no. 12
From: Darth Vader <j07c@***.UNI-BREMEN.DE>
Subject: Re: Quickening + Anchoring = Invulnerability
Date: Tue, 5 Jul 1994 11:22:57 +0100
> While reading all this, I thought of something...
>
> CAN you ground through quickenings? I thought that we went over this
> a while back, and the consensus was that you could NOT...

When a mage is in the astral he can attack everything thats has an astral
presense. Power foci, spirits-elementals, dual natured creatures, spells,
weapon foci, spell locks, anchorings, quickenings, spirit foci?, spell foci
etc. you get the idea all function as some sort of astral beacon and thus
can be attacked by a magician either by way of spell or melee attack.
Now if said object is connected to something in the real world, and our
magician hits it with a spell then the spell grounds through it.
Thats the way I see things and as far as I know that the 'official' FASA
version of the story as told by our DLoH.

--
Strong am I with the Force... but not that strong!
Twilight is upon me and soon night must fall.
That is the way of things ... the way of the Force.

GCS -d+@ -p+(---) c+++ l++ u+++ e+ m++(-) s+/ !n(---) h*(+) f+ !g w+ t+ r++ y?
Message no. 13
From: Stainless Steel Rat <ratinox@***.NEU.EDU>
Subject: Re: Quickening + Anchoring = Invulnerability
Date: Tue, 5 Jul 1994 09:45:17 -0400
>>>>> "Tim" == Tim Skirvin <tskirvin@********.UNI.UIUC.EDU>
writes:

Tim> CAN you ground through quickenings? I thought that we went
Tim> over this a while back, and the consensus was that you could NOT...

You can ground through anything that has a dual nature, ie, exists in both
physical and astral space. This includes, but is not limited to: dual
natured critters, astrally percieving (but not projecting) mages, active
spell locks, bonded foci, and quickenings. The benefit to quickenings over
spell locks is that they have a Force rating higher than 1.

--
Rat <ratinox@***.neu.edu> | "Carpe Joltem! (Seize the Caffeine)"
--Me
http://www.ccs.neu.edu/home/ratinox |
Message no. 14
From: Marc A Renouf <jormung@*****.UMICH.EDU>
Subject: Re: Quickening + Anchoring = Invulnerability
Date: Tue, 5 Jul 1994 11:40:19 -0400
On Sun, 3 Jul 1994, Stainless Steel Rat wrote:

> >>>>> "Luke" == Luke Kendall
<luke@********.CANON.OZ.AU> writes:
>
> Luke> Once again, a rules problem. For a relatively low karma cost, an
> Luke> initiated mage can quicken vast amounts of armour, and anchor lots of
> Luke> Treat Deadly Wounds spells hooked up to a cheap bio-monitor.
>
> Yeah, and you're a walking target for any astrally projecting mage who
> wants to hellblast you and anyone around you. Quickenings can be grounded
> through, just like spell locks, it's just harder to do.
>
> --
> Rat <ratinox@***.neu.edu> | "Good, bad... I'm the guy with the
gun."
> http://www.ccs.neu.edu/home/ratinox | --Ashe, "Army of Darkness"
>

Nope. Quickenings can NOT be ground through, but they DO cost lots o'
karma and they can be dispelled/combatted astrally. Most mages only cast
spells to be quickened at a low force, so they are fairly easy to
obliterate. Oh, yeah one more thing. If someone attacks your focus or
lock, you can allocate spell defense dice. Not so for quickenings, which
makes them a more tempting target, even though you can't ground thru
them. Tempting indeed, especially when you KNOW that the mage who cast
them put his hard earned karma into them.

Marc
Message no. 15
From: "Jason Carter, Nightstalker" <CARTER@***.EDU>
Subject: Re: Quickening + Anchoring = Invulnerability
Date: Mon, 4 Jul 1994 00:01:06 -0700
Luke Wrote:

>Once again, a rules problem. For a relatively low karma cost, an
>initiated mage can quicken vast amounts of armour, and anchor lots
>of Treat Deadly Wounds spells hooked up to a cheap bio-monitor.

First of all, vast amounts of quickened armor cost more than a little bit of
karma. Second, you have just made yourself a target for any magician you run
into. If he looks into astral space he has a horde of targets for spells.
Also, elementals and spirits can be easily used to destroy quickening and
anchored spell and they don't even have to manifest. Lastly, you'll have a hell
of a time getting past any astral barrier. The Treat spell must be maintained
before the effect is permenant and how will the bumch of Treat spells know
which one is set off. Lastly, there is no Treat Deadly wound is SRII.

>Now, if this is standard practice for nasty mages in published FASA
>modules, then they obviously want the world to workl like this.

I've never seen a character in a FASA module decked out like that.

>If they don't, then maybe it means that this is something that they
>didn't see.

No, they see that there are enough reasons not to do this.

*******************************************************************************
* See Ya in Shadows * * "Trust No One." *
* Jason J Carter * Carter@***.EDU * The late Deep Throat *
* The Nightstalker * * The X-Files *
*******************************************************************************
Message no. 16
From: Marc A Renouf <jormung@*****.UMICH.EDU>
Subject: Re: Quickening + Anchoring = Invulnerability
Date: Tue, 5 Jul 1994 11:59:43 -0400
On Mon, 4 Jul 1994, Luke Kendall wrote:

> Rat> Not if I keep popping your quickenings. Once I bust through the last one,
> Rat> you take whatever damage is left. And I can sit around in astral all day
> Rat> and take my time, unless you want to come after me and leave all your
> Rat> goodies behind :).
>
> Hmm. With a large Rating spirit or elemental on guard (gurading the locks
> or quickenings) this is not much of a problem. And if the mage has an
> astral weapon with a reach advantage, he'll be only too pleased to leave
> his body and beat the sh*t out of you astrally.
>
> Which just means that the only way to take down a potent mage is with
> another potent mage, or a group of mages making a concerted astral attack.
> Which is ok, I guess. Certainly for the bad guys - that's expected. For
> the players, with Superman as a buddy, well ...
>
> Rat> Those treat spells require being sustained over a period of time for the
> Rat> effects to become "permanant" (I think 10 turns for treat).
>
> 10 turns divided by the number of successes. TN 4; let's say 20 dice behind
> the spell; hmmm. 1 turn.
>
> Still, that's going to cause him troubles for a few seconds...
>
> thanks,
> luke
>

Just remember this. The best way to keep a mage from casting a spell is
to put a bullet in his head. I don't care how much armor/treat/elemental
patrol/reach-capable-weapon-foci/anchorings/quickenings you have. If I
take my time aiming and calling a shot with, oh, say a Barret .50 cal
sniper rifle, you will die. I can hit you in a spot without armor, so
you are looking at a t# of 14. I don't care if you are rolling
twenty-some dice for your body, you won't get more than me (as my
shooting target number is probably on the order of 2-5.) So then your
treat spell kicks in. Remember that successes for treat and heal are
split between the number of boxes healed and the time it takes to do it,
so you have to trade off somewhere. You either heal one box really fast
or several boxes at a slower rate, and during that time, I get to shoot
again. Oh, I forgot, the Barret is semiauto (heh), so I get to shoot
twice before you get to do anything. What are the chances that I can
exceed you natural physical overflow before you are beyond the help of
healing magics? Pretty damn good.
The classic "battle of mages" where mighty spells are flung between
opponents is an AD&D thing. With quickening, shielding, spell defense,
and what have you, the Shadowrun "battle of mages" goes to the guy who
draws his gun quickest.

Marc
Message no. 17
From: "J.W.Thomas" <cm5323@***.AC.UK>
Subject: Re: Quickening + Anchoring = Invulnerability
Date: Tue, 5 Jul 1994 17:25:35 +0100
>
> On Mon, 4 Jul 1994, Luke Kendall wrote:
>
> > Rat> Not if I keep popping your quickenings. Once I bust through the last
one,
> > Rat> you take whatever damage is left. And I can sit around in astral all
day
> > Rat> and take my time, unless you want to come after me and leave all your
> > Rat> goodies behind :).
> >
> > Hmm. With a large Rating spirit or elemental on guard (gurading the locks
> > or quickenings) this is not much of a problem. And if the mage has an
> > astral weapon with a reach advantage, he'll be only too pleased to leave
> > his body and beat the sh*t out of you astrally.
<CHOP>
HE HE HE... careful it maybe a trap to lure you from the
physical world......

> > Which just means that the only way to take down a potent mage is with
> > another potent mage, or a group of mages making a concerted astral attack.
> > Which is ok, I guess. Certainly for the bad guys - that's expected. For
> > the players, with Superman as a buddy, well ...
<CHOP>
what about mage takedown by other archytypes?
Sammie...HMG or demolitions
Rigger...RAM THE MAGE
Decker...Override a plane and crash it on the mage
Rocker...ERM.....er...
<CHOP> most mages dont like being set on fire/having building
collapsed onto them/being run over by remoted 16 wheeler MAC
trucks/landed on by Boeing 777's

> Just remember this. The best way to keep a mage from casting a spell is
> to put a bullet in his head.
> take my time aiming and calling a shot with, oh, say a Barret .50 cal
> again. Oh, I forgot, the Barret is semiauto (heh), so I get to shoot
> twice before you get to do anything. What are the chances that I can
> exceed you natural physical overflow before you are beyond the help of
> healing magics? Pretty damn good.
>
<CHOP> What about a personal anti bullet barrier ?
I used a nasty trick on a Mage once...
conjurer friend put lots of BIG force elements on 2 successes
ORDERS
1.stay with this item.attack whatever it hits
2. <saved for the attack>

The 'item' was a BULLET...the mage was physical and angry, and
had this big shit eating grin when the sammie pulled the SMG
It goes off BBRRRRR and the mage looses his bullet
barrier...BBBBRRRRRRRR....no more mage...

CHOPPER
Message no. 18
From: Tim Skirvin <tskirvin@********.UNI.UIUC.EDU>
Subject: Re: Quickening + Anchoring = Invulnerability
Date: Tue, 5 Jul 1994 11:47:16 -0500
> When a mage is in the astral he can attack everything thats has
> an astral
> presense. Power foci, spirits-elementals, dual natured creatures,
> spells,

Yeah, I know he can ATTACK the quickening. That's no problem.
But, as far as I know, you can't ground through sustained spells either...and
that's what quickenings are.

-------------Tim Skirvin (tskirvin@********.uni.uiuc.edu-------------
"He's NOT a gibbering idiot - he's cured of gibbering, he's just an
idiot now." -- Jane, "Waiting for God"
Message no. 19
From: Stainless Steel Rat <ratinox@***.NEU.EDU>
Subject: Re: Quickening + Anchoring = Invulnerability
Date: Tue, 5 Jul 1994 12:55:57 -0400
>>>>> "Marc" == Marc A Renouf <jormung@*****.UMICH.EDU>
writes:

Marc> Nope. Quickenings can NOT be ground through, but they DO cost lots
Marc> o' karma and they can be dispelled/combatted astrally.

According to the Dark Lord on High and his assistant (Tom Dowd and Paul
Hume) you can ground through a quickening.

--
Rat <ratinox@***.neu.edu> | On the seventh day the Lord said: I'm
http://www.ccs.neu.edu/home/ratinox | pooped. You build the theme park.
Message no. 20
From: Robert Watkins <bob@**.NTU.EDU.AU>
Subject: Re: Quickening + Anchoring = Invulnerability
Date: Wed, 6 Jul 1994 04:57:45 +0930
> Just remember this. The best way to keep a mage from casting a spell is
> to put a bullet in his head. I don't care how much armor/treat/elemental
> patrol/reach-capable-weapon-foci/anchorings/quickenings you have. If I
> take my time aiming and calling a shot with, oh, say a Barret .50 cal
> sniper rifle, you will die. I can hit you in a spot without armor, so

We're being munchkins, right? With munchkin protections?
Okay, how long are you going to aim? Cause my watcher spirits are buzzing
all around me VERY fast, and as soon as you pull out that rifle, I'm
sending in a manabolt, or at least a serious elemental or spirit.

You'd have better luck with a derringer. Sniper's don't work up against a
TRULY paranoid person.

> you are looking at a t# of 14. I don't care if you are rolling
> twenty-some dice for your body, you won't get more than me (as my
> shooting target number is probably on the order of 2-5.) So then your
> treat spell kicks in. Remember that successes for treat and heal are
> split between the number of boxes healed and the time it takes to do it,
> so you have to trade off somewhere. You either heal one box really fast
> or several boxes at a slower rate, and during that time, I get to shoot
> again. Oh, I forgot, the Barret is semiauto (heh), so I get to shoot
> twice before you get to do anything. What are the chances that I can
> exceed you natural physical overflow before you are beyond the help of
> healing magics? Pretty damn good.

What about my automagically-raising anti-bullet barrier?? Or, better yet,
my autmagically-raising anti-bullet barrier with an acid blast going back
down the line of fire? (One of my players wanted that once. *shudder*)
What about the fact that if I'm that paranoid, odds are I'd never go out
in public? And, even if you kill me, you'd never escape my "friends". Like
that free spirit I've just _got_to_ be chummy with. Or my good friend,
Lofwyr.

Remember folks: No matter how munchkin the situation is, it can always get
more. :)

> The classic "battle of mages" where mighty spells are flung between
> opponents is an AD&D thing. With quickening, shielding, spell defense,
> and what have you, the Shadowrun "battle of mages" goes to the guy who
> draws his gun quickest.
>
I kind of like what happens in "Choose your enemies carefully", to tell
the truth. The High Druid's got his anti-bullet barrier already up. Damn
shame about the floor.

> Marc
>


--
Robert Watkins bob@**.ntu.edu.au
Real Programmers never work 9 to 5. If any real programmers are around at 9 am,
it's because they were up all night.
Message no. 21
From: Robert Watkins <bob@**.NTU.EDU.AU>
Subject: Re: Quickening + Anchoring = Invulnerability
Date: Wed, 6 Jul 1994 05:10:13 +0930
> what about mage takedown by other archytypes?
> Sammie...HMG or demolitions
> Rigger...RAM THE MAGE
> Decker...Override a plane and crash it on the mage
> Rocker...ERM.....er...
Rocker...Play Kylie Minogue songs REALLY LOUD, and even more
off-key than they started at?

--
Robert Watkins bob@**.ntu.edu.au
Real Programmers never work 9 to 5. If any real programmers are around at 9 am,
it's because they were up all night.
Message no. 22
From: Robert Watkins <bob@**.NTU.EDU.AU>
Subject: Re: Quickening + Anchoring = Invulnerability
Date: Wed, 6 Jul 1994 05:17:25 +0930
> Yeah, I know he can ATTACK the quickening. That's no problem.
> But, as far as I know, you can't ground through sustained spells either...and
> that's what quickenings are.
>

Nope, the word from the DLOH was that you could ground through
quickenings. And quickenings have the same relationship to a sustained
spell that a spell lock has.

Mind you, anyone tossing decent quickenings around can probably use the
metamagic ability to "hide" them.


--
Robert Watkins bob@**.ntu.edu.au
Real Programmers never work 9 to 5. If any real programmers are around at 9 am,
it's because they were up all night.
Message no. 23
From: Tim Skirvin <tskirvin@********.UNI.UIUC.EDU>
Subject: Re: Quickening + Anchoring = Invulnerability
Date: Tue, 5 Jul 1994 18:34:44 -0500
> Nope, the word from the DLOH was that you could ground through
> quickenings. And quickenings have the same relationship to a
> sustained

Ah. There should be a DLOH-Handbook (Misc Shadowrun Rulings).

Still, I can see too many abuses for that...defensive stuff. Make
a "light" spell or something like that quickened in your room (cover it up
if you don't want light, of course...), then if someone in your apartment that
you don't like, blast 'em bad with a really big fireball from astral.

It didn't even look dangerous, before...and it's cheaper than anchoring.

Sure, it's beatable, but for the first couple of times, it's a decent
strategy, at least until everyone else figures out the strategy and starts
to defend against it...

-------------Tim Skirvin (tskirvin@********.uni.uiuc.edu-------------
"He's NOT a gibbering idiot - he's cured of gibbering, he's just an
idiot now." -- Jane, "Waiting for God"
Message no. 24
From: Stainless Steel Rat <ratinox@***.NEU.EDU>
Subject: Re: Quickening + Anchoring = Invulnerability
Date: Tue, 5 Jul 1994 20:23:53 -0400
>>>>> "Tim" == Tim Skirvin <tskirvin@********.UNI.UIUC.EDU>
writes:

Tim> Still, I can see too many abuses for that...defensive stuff.
Tim> Make a "light" spell or something like that quickened in your room
Tim> (cover it up if you don't want light, of course...), then if someone
Tim> in your apartment that you don't like, blast 'em bad with a really big
Tim> fireball from astral.

Easier and cheaper to bring in a watcher or something for that purpose.

--
Rat <ratinox@***.neu.edu> | "...and I didn't even need pants!"
http://www.ccs.neu.edu/home/ratinox | --Dilbert [Scott Adams]
Message no. 25
From: "Jason Carter, Nightstalker" <CARTER@***.EDU>
Subject: Re: Quickening + Anchoring = Invulnerability
Date: Tue, 5 Jul 1994 22:29:20 -0700
Good God!!!! How many times must we go over this?

THE RULEBOOKS SAY:

You may ground through any dual-natured object. These include Foci and Spell
Locks, Anchorings, Dual-Natured Beings, and Astally perceiving Magicians.

THE DLOH SAYS:

That sustained spells with physical effects may also be grounded through. This
includes quickenings and spells being activally sustained by a magician.

*******************************************************************************
* See Ya in Shadows * * "Trust No One." *
* Jason J Carter * Carter@***.EDU * The late Deep Throat *
* The Nightstalker * * The X-Files *
*******************************************************************************
Message no. 26
From: Paolo Marcucci <marcucci@***.TS.ASTRO.IT>
Subject: Re: Quickening + Anchoring = Invulnerability (fwd)
Date: Wed, 6 Jul 1994 09:12:42 METDST
>
> > Nope, the word from the DLOH was that you could ground through
> > quickenings. And quickenings have the same relationship to a
> > sustained
>
> Ah. There should be a DLOH-Handbook (Misc Shadowrun Rulings).

I agree. Have someone out there a collection of the rule modification
(kinda official) from the DLOH? (Smartlink II, quickenings...)

> -------------Tim Skirvin (tskirvin@********.uni.uiuc.edu-------------
--
______________________________________________________________________
Paolo Marcucci Osservatorio Astronomico di Trieste - Italy
marcucci@***.ts.astro.it http://www.oat.ts.astro.it/marcucci.html
Message no. 27
From: Darth Vader <j07c@***.UNI-BREMEN.DE>
Subject: Re: Quickening + Anchoring = Invulnerability
Date: Wed, 6 Jul 1994 10:10:11 +0100
> Still, I can see too many abuses for that...defensive stuff. Make
> a "light" spell or something like that quickened in your room (cover it up
> if you don't want light, of course...), then if someone in your apartment that
> you don't like, blast 'em bad with a really big fireball from astral.

Thats right there is only one flaw in your logic, gate to the astral is
open to everyone not just you. I dont think that a permanent invitation
to hellblast your doss is a clever thing to leave out in the astral.
Magic is the most powerfull thing in SRII and the DLoH WISELY decided
that anything with an astral presence a link to the real world can be
grounded through, it cut back a bit on the power of mages and makes them
a LOT more interesting.

--
Strong am I with the Force... but not that strong!
Twilight is upon me and soon night must fall.
That is the way of things ... the way of the Force.

GCS -d+@ -p+(---) c+++ l++ u+++ e+ m++(-) s+/ !n(---) h*(+) f+ !g w+ t+ r++ y?
Message no. 28
From: Darth Vader <j07c@***.UNI-BREMEN.DE>
Subject: Re: Quickening + Anchoring = Invulnerability
Date: Wed, 6 Jul 1994 10:14:01 +0100
>
> > When a mage is in the astral he can attack everything thats has
> > an astral
> > presense. Power foci, spirits-elementals, dual natured creatures,
> > spells,
>
> Yeah, I know he can ATTACK the quickening. That's no problem.
> But, as far as I know, you can't ground through sustained spells either...and
> that's what quickenings are.

Please DO NOT QUOTE ME OUT OF CONTEXT. I continued to say that If this
astral presense has a link to the real world it can be grounded through
and that includes quickenings.

--
Strong am I with the Force... but not that strong!
Twilight is upon me and soon night must fall.
That is the way of things ... the way of the Force.

GCS -d+@ -p+(---) c+++ l++ u+++ e+ m++(-) s+/ !n(---) h*(+) f+ !g w+ t+ r++ y?
Message no. 29
From: Marc A Renouf <jormung@*****.UMICH.EDU>
Subject: Re: Quickening + Anchoring = Invulnerability
Date: Wed, 6 Jul 1994 10:55:58 -0400
OK, so the sniper thing may not work when you have that heinous level
anti-bullet barrier. But ho many mages do you know that have
anti-falling building barriers. And magical barriers can be broken
through just like normal barriers. BTW...what is the damage code of a
falling building? (Astronomical)D ?

Marc
Message no. 30
From: Tim Skirvin <tskirvin@********.UNI.UIUC.EDU>
Subject: Re: Quickening + Anchoring = Invulnerability
Date: Wed, 6 Jul 1994 16:35:36 -0500
> Easier and cheaper to bring in a watcher or something for that
> purpose.

Cheaper? Maybe Karma-wise, but that doesn't last either...quickenings
can serve a good dual-purpose inside the place, and they don't take too
much karma for cheap spells...

Important thing, though...have the place set up so no OTHER mages can
get in astrally. Wouldn't do to suddenly explode in the middle of the night
now, would it?

-------------Tim Skirvin (tskirvin@********.uni.uiuc.edu-------------
"He's NOT a gibbering idiot - he's cured of gibbering, he's just an
idiot now." -- Jane, "Waiting for God"
Message no. 31
From: Tim Skirvin <tskirvin@********.UNI.UIUC.EDU>
Subject: Re: Quickening + Anchoring = Invulnerability
Date: Wed, 6 Jul 1994 16:46:59 -0500
> Please DO NOT QUOTE ME OUT OF CONTEXT. I continued to say that If
> this

I didn't.

Trust me on that one...I have no reason to do so at all, and if I wanted
to it would be a lot more in my favor.

> astral presense has a link to the real world it can be grounded
> through
> and that includes quickenings.

I read it, and I didn't get that out of it...

-------------Tim Skirvin (tskirvin@********.uni.uiuc.edu-------------
"He's NOT a gibbering idiot - he's cured of gibbering, he's just an
idiot now." -- Jane, "Waiting for God"
Message no. 32
From: Stainless Steel Rat <ratinox@***.NEU.EDU>
Subject: Re: Quickening + Anchoring = Invulnerability
Date: Thu, 7 Jul 1994 09:38:05 -0400
>>>>> "Tim" == Tim Skirvin <tskirvin@********.UNI.UIUC.EDU>
writes:

>> Easier and cheaper to bring in a watcher or something for that
>> purpose.
Tim> Cheaper? Maybe Karma-wise, but that doesn't last either...
Tim> quickenings can serve a good dual-purpose inside the place, and they
Tim> don't take too much karma for cheap spells...

Well, watchers don't cost a thing to summon, you can summon them quickly,
and send them away when you're done so they're not hanging around screaming
"TARGET!" like a lock or quickening.

Tim> Important thing, though... have the place set up so no OTHER
Tim> mages can get in astrally. Wouldn't do to suddenly explode in the
Tim> middle of the night now, would it?

Yeah? And how do you go about doing that?

--
Rat <ratinox@***.neu.edu> | Anything not nailed down is mine.
http://www.ccs.neu.edu/home/ratinox | Anything I can pry up is not nailed down.
Message no. 33
From: Chris Lubrecht <lubrecht@***.EDU>
Subject: Re: Quickening + Anchoring = Invulnerability
Date: Thu, 7 Jul 1994 14:07:33 -0400
On Thu, 7 Jul 1994, Stainless Steel Rat wrote:

> >>>>> "Tim" == Tim Skirvin
<tskirvin@********.UNI.UIUC.EDU> writes:
>
> >> Easier and cheaper to bring in a watcher or something for that
> >> purpose.
> Tim> Cheaper? Maybe Karma-wise, but that doesn't last either...
> Tim> quickenings can serve a good dual-purpose inside the place, and they
> Tim> don't take too much karma for cheap spells...
>
> Well, watchers don't cost a thing to summon, you can summon them quickly,
> and send them away when you're done so they're not hanging around screaming
> "TARGET!" like a lock or quickening.
>
> Tim> Important thing, though... have the place set up so no OTHER
> Tim> mages can get in astrally. Wouldn't do to suddenly explode in the
> Tim> middle of the night now, would it?
>
> Yeah? And how do you go about doing that?
>
> --
> Rat <ratinox@***.neu.edu> | Anything not nailed down is mine.
> http://www.ccs.neu.edu/home/ratinox | Anything I can pry up is not nailed down.
>

Sleep in a really high rating medicine lodge. :-)

Nigel
Message no. 34
From: Tim Skirvin <tskirvin@********.UNI.UIUC.EDU>
Subject: Re: Quickening + Anchoring = Invulnerability
Date: Thu, 7 Jul 1994 16:28:23 -0500
> Well, watchers don't cost a thing to summon, you can summon them
> quickly, and send them away when you're done so they're not hanging
> around screaming "TARGET!" like a lock or quickening.

Yes, they are fun. I like watchers. But quickenings etc can be nice
too...

> Yeah? And how do you go about doing that?

Either wards or medicine lodges, I suppose...

-------------Tim Skirvin (tskirvin@********.uni.uiuc.edu-------------
"He's NOT a gibbering idiot - he's cured of gibbering, he's just an
idiot now." -- Jane, "Waiting for God"
Message no. 35
From: Stainless Steel Rat <ratinox@***.NEU.EDU>
Subject: Re: Quickening + Anchoring = Invulnerability
Date: Thu, 7 Jul 1994 19:41:47 -0400
>>>>> "Tim" == Tim Skirvin <tskirvin@********.UNI.UIUC.EDU>
writes:

>> Yeah? And how do you go about doing that? [isolating yourself totally
>> from astral mages]
Tim> Either wards or medicine lodges, I suppose...

Either can be overcome.

Someone sent me some e-mail, with a much simpler solution: surround
yourself with living biomass. Living matter is absolutely impenetrable in
astral space. He gave some rather high-tech suggestions, but I think things
like clinging ivy would do the trick.

--
Rat <ratinox@***.neu.edu> | "The only way to deal with temptation is
http://www.ccs.neu.edu/home/ratinox | to yield to it." --Oscar Wilde
Message no. 36
From: Mercenary X <kdye@*****.STANFORD.EDU>
Subject: Re: Quickening + Anchoring = Invulnerability
Date: Thu, 7 Jul 1994 17:55:20 -0700
On Thu, 7 Jul 1994, Stainless Steel Rat wrote:

> >>>>> "Tim" == Tim Skirvin
<tskirvin@********.UNI.UIUC.EDU> writes:
>
> >> Yeah? And how do you go about doing that? [isolating yourself totally
> >> from astral mages]
> Tim> Either wards or medicine lodges, I suppose...
>
> Either can be overcome.
>
> Someone sent me some e-mail, with a much simpler solution: surround
> yourself with living biomass. Living matter is absolutely impenetrable in
> astral space. He gave some rather high-tech suggestions, but I think things
> like clinging ivy would do the trick.
Whats gonna stop the mage from frying the ivy in the real world
then turning astral and goin' in?

> --
> Rat <ratinox@***.neu.edu> | "The only way to deal with
temptation is
> http://www.ccs.neu.edu/home/ratinox | to yield to it." --Oscar Wilde
>
Message no. 37
From: Stainless Steel Rat <ratinox@***.NEU.EDU>
Subject: Re: Quickening + Anchoring = Invulnerability
Date: Thu, 7 Jul 1994 21:01:33 -0400
>>>>> "Mercenary" == Mercenary X <kdye@*****.STANFORD.EDU>
writes:

Mercenary> Whats gonna stop the mage from frying the ivy in the
Mercenary> real world then turning astral and goin' in?

Nope. It's technically not a dual-natured thing, therefore you can't ground
into it, therefore you can't affect it from astral space.

Yet another of the weirdnesses from Paul Hume.

--
Rat <ratinox@***.neu.edu> | "Carpe Joltem! (Seize the Caffeine)"
--Me
http://www.ccs.neu.edu/home/ratinox |
Message no. 38
From: Luke Kendall <luke@********.CANON.OZ.AU>
Subject: Re: Quickening + Anchoring = Invulnerability
Date: Fri, 8 Jul 1994 11:21:59 +1000
Mercenary> Whats gonna stop the mage from frying the ivy in the
Mercenary> real world then turning astral and goin' in?

Rat> Nope. It's technically not a dual-natured thing, therefore you can't
Rat> ground into it, therefore you can't affect it from astral space.

I think he meant walk up to the dorr, fry it, then go in. But most people
would be woken by the frying ivy or the smoke detectors.

Rat> Yet another of the weirdnesses from Paul Hume.

No. Astral space is a place where life force and emotions are solid and
real. That's what you see with, and work with. You don't see with light,
you see by the magical energies that emanate from living things and spirits.

And that interpretation makes sense of a whole lot of things. Until you
get to the part where they wimp out and let astral beings see through glass,
or see in enclosed areas that are dead dead dead and scoured clean of all
life.

_That's_ one of the weirdnesses from Paul Hume.

luke
Message no. 39
From: Stainless Steel Rat <ratinox@***.NEU.EDU>
Subject: Re: Quickening + Anchoring = Invulnerability
Date: Thu, 7 Jul 1994 21:47:28 -0400
>>>>> "Luke" == Luke Kendall <luke@********.CANON.OZ.AU>
writes:

Luke> I think he meant walk up to the dorr, fry it, then go in. But most
Luke> people would be woken by the frying ivy or the smoke detectors.

Ah, ok. If that's the case, then the physical defenses should be adequite
to deal with a physical assault.

Rat> Yet another of the weirdnesses from Paul Hume.
Luke> No. Astral space is a place where life force and emotions are solid
Luke> and real. That's what you see with, and work with. You don't see
Luke> with light, you see by the magical energies that emanate from living
Luke> things and spirits.

Yeah, but here's where it gets weird. Any living thing has both a physical
presence and an astral presence. A thing with both a physical presence and
an astral presence is dual-natured. But there are many things, like plants
and mundanes, for example, which contradict that rule. That's why I call it
a weirdness.

Luke> And that interpretation makes sense of a whole lot of things. Until
Luke> you get to the part where they wimp out and let astral beings see
Luke> through glass, or see in enclosed areas that are dead dead dead and
Luke> scoured clean of all life.

Luke> _That's_ one of the weirdnesses from Paul Hume.

No, that's a fuckup, plain and simple. By all other definitions, glass
should be opaque in astral space.

--
Rat <ratinox@***.neu.edu> | "Good, bad... I'm the guy with the
gun."
http://www.ccs.neu.edu/home/ratinox | --Ashe, "Army of Darkness"
Message no. 40
From: Gian-Paolo Musumeci <musumeci@***.LIS.UIUC.EDU>
Subject: Re: Quickening + Anchoring = Invulnerability
Date: Thu, 7 Jul 1994 22:23:42 -0500
Okay, take a flamethrower to the street sammy covered in leaves, then have
your mage go in and fry his ass.
Message no. 41
From: Luke Kendall <luke@********.CANON.OZ.AU>
Subject: Re: Quickening + Anchoring = Invulnerability
Date: Fri, 8 Jul 1994 13:46:17 +1000
Gian-Paolo Musumeci:

> Okay, take a flamethrower to the street sammy covered in leaves, then have
> your mage go in and fry his ass.

But he's wearing a fire proof suit! And armour over the top of that.
And boy, does he have an itch he wishes he could scratch! :-)

luke@***.escalation.game
Message no. 42
From: Jai Tao <jdfalk@****.CAIS.COM>
Subject: Re: Quickening + Anchoring = Invulnerability
Date: Fri, 8 Jul 1994 00:40:30 -0400
On Fri, 8 Jul 1994, Luke Kendall wrote:

> Gian-Paolo Musumeci:
>
> > Okay, take a flamethrower to the street sammy covered in leaves, then have
> > your mage go in and fry his ass.
>
> But he's wearing a fire proof suit! And armour over the top of that.
> And boy, does he have an itch he wishes he could scratch! :-)
>
And even worse...where in GHOD's name are you going to find
_leaves_ in a sprawl? Fast food wrappers, perhaps (and those might even
burn better, what with the grease), but plant life?
Message no. 43
From: Tim Skirvin <tskirvin@********.UNI.UIUC.EDU>
Subject: Re: Quickening + Anchoring = Invulnerability
Date: Fri, 8 Jul 1994 00:26:05 -0500
> Either can be overcome.

Lots of things can be overcome. Sometimes, this can be good.

> Someone sent me some e-mail, with a much simpler solution: surround
> yourself with living biomass. Living matter is absolutely
> impenetrable in astral space. He gave some rather high-tech
> suggestions, but I think things like clinging ivy would do the
> trick.

It depends a lot on what you want to do yourself.

Take the example of a physical system. If you want to have it hooked
into the net, then all's well and fine. If you make it one way, then you can
only get in from the physical site, and it's completely safe. However, if you
want to hook it up to the REST of the world, there can be problems of sec-
urity. People can break in. Also, in some cases, you can't get out...anyway,
the main problem is if YOU want to get into your system remotely. If you can
get in, then chances are that someone else can get in also...like wards and
medicine lodges. But if they can't get in, then neither can you.

A lot of times, I'd like to be able to check out who's invading my
home...

Make any sense at all?

-------------Tim Skirvin (tskirvin@********.uni.uiuc.edu-------------
"He's NOT a gibbering idiot - he's cured of gibbering, he's just an
idiot now." -- Jane, "Waiting for God"
Message no. 44
From: Bryan Prince <WALAB@******.HH.VANDERBILT.EDU>
Subject: Re: Quickening + Anchoring = Invulnerability
Date: Fri, 8 Jul 1994 08:43:01 -0600
Concerning Astral Security Measures:
Mercenary X asks:"What's gonna stop the mage from frying the ivy in the real
world then turning astral and goin' in?"
First of all I sent some suggestions to Rat concerning the use of biomass to
protect a building/room-though I don't know if I am the only one. To answer
Mercenary X's question-In my original description, the mage could not see the
biomass in the wall of the building. It was contained in vats that lined the
wall [about 6" thick] and full of things like algae, bacteria and protozoa.
A real astral soup that should be inpentrable from the astral. And yes, I
used grow lights and decay zones to maintain optimal growth. If a mage can't
see what he is trying to cast at, he can't hit it. If he uses a physical or
damaging manipulation spell, he blows his stealthy approach and alerts the
guards. All in all a good way to protect yourself from astral approaches.
Just my $0.02 worth.
Bryan Prince

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