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Message no. 1
From: "Jason Carter, Nightstalker" <CARTER@***.EDU>
Subject: Quickenings and Wards
Date: Tue, 22 Jun 1993 13:11:10 -0700
Minotaur,

Good luck with your Astralless campaign. Now on the question of Quickenings
and Wards, that's a harder question to answer than you might think. It appears
that the wise sages of FASA didn't bother to produce any rules on what happens
when an astral active items comes into contact with a ward. This doesn't only
apply to quickenings but also all active foci expect for Weapon foci. You might
even say it counts for spells that are being sustained, and don't forget
anchored spells. This is a can of worms that they skillfully overlooked when
writting the Grimoire (both times).

I really don't know what to say. Maybe just execute a quick force test with
the foci/quickening/anchoring rolling its force with target number equal to the
ward and the ward rolling its force with a target number equalt to the foci's
force. If the foci gets one net success then it passes through. If it doesn't
the mage receives a mild shock and cannot pass through the barrier with the
item is active. All future attempts will fail against this particualar ward,
except for quickening which may try again as many times as the magician likes.

See Ya in Shadows,
Jason J Carter
The Nightstalker
Message no. 2
From: Mark Steedman <M.J.Steedman@***.RGU.AC.UK>
Subject: Quickenings and wards.
Date: Wed, 24 Sep 1997 13:44:20 GMT
Max Rible writes

> >If you can find a friendly mage initiation costs are balanced, except
> >you might 'skip' grade 0 which really gives masking and thats about
> >it, remember they can mask quickened spells from a fellow member of
> >thier magical group even though they cannot cast them, this is very
> >powerful!
>
> Quickened spells aren't very powerful, actually. They're astral entities,
> so the moment you walk through a ward, the ward will attempt to chew up
> your quickened spell. If it eats your spell, kiss the karma good-bye.
That seriously depends on how much karma you put into it.

> Either way, every mage on the ritual tema that cast the ward knows something
> was attacking the ward, and wherever they are they're probably pushing
> their little warning buttons to alert the security system at the site
> you're invading.
>
This rule came in with Awakenings (and is yet another case where the
FASA published version is inferior to Steves origonal version if
you've seen both), and i tend to ignore it the reason beiong it
really frags with the balance in the game if the magcians cannot have
boosts to their abilities and the sammies can. It's quite simple if
the bad guys can afford a ward plus backup i'm plain not going in
there without some reflex increases, plain forget it (never mind
detect enemies and the other 101 uses for a quickened spell).

Before everyone says, just use spell locks, they can be turned off,
well ok but how would you like my mage with spell locked levitate
person and improved invis and personal bullet barrier 9+mods, who
with ruthymoid ploymers is immune (due to not being seen, far too few
people look up for mundane snipers on buildings let alone flying
invisible mages) to just about anything but astral security. And that
except the ploymers maybe is easy at creation.

The 'sparkle when the magical item passes through the ward' effect is
ok, and even the rules are ok when you consider wards cost arround
400000 yen/year just in materials let alone mage wages each ward
(which is enough to cover a 'typical' house if you have a team of
mages working on it) so should be very VERY rare.

Used sensible masked spells are incredible (if the GM's paying
attention and the players don't find a few loopholes) they are the
magicians answer to cyber, typically not quite as effective but they
give magicians a chance, if you are going to put wards on everything
put rating 10 MAD scanners set for cyber on every entrance as well,
its fair then the sammie walking in the door trips everything just as
fast and the players will in short order turn down future runs like
than [unless allowed and inclinded to take a banshee to blow security
into the next centuary first, followed by a very rapid departure
ahead of the backup]

Mark
Message no. 3
From: David Buehrer <dbuehrer@****.ORG>
Subject: Re: Quickenings and wards.
Date: Wed, 24 Sep 1997 07:14:36 -0600
Mark Steedman wrote:
|
| Before everyone says, just use spell locks, they can be turned off,
| well ok but how would you like my mage with spell locked levitate
| person and improved invis and personal bullet barrier 9+mods, who
| with ruthymoid ploymers is immune (due to not being seen, far too few
| people look up for mundane snipers on buildings let alone flying
| invisible mages) to just about anything but astral security. And that
| except the ploymers maybe is easy at creation.

No problem. They become the ultimate thief and gain a huge rep. Then
one day they're hired for a really big job. They set up, go in, and
get the "item" and turn it over to the Johnson that hired them who
pays them and sends them on their merry way. The corporation that
"lost" the item sends a troubleshooting team to get the item back
(much cheaper than setting up impenetrable security). The team has
full access to corporate resources. The thief suddenly finds himself
the object of a very organized, methodical manhunt. He starts losing
friends and contacts as the troubleshooters close in on him. What's
he gonna do? <EGMG>

I see a lot of, "How am I going to stop this character?" when GMs
should be thinking, "How am I going to react to this character?"

-David
http://www.geocities.com/TimesSquare/1068/homepage.htm
--
"Creativity is allowing yourself to make mistakes. Art is knowing
which ones to keep."
Message no. 4
From: Mark Steedman <M.J.Steedman@***.RGU.AC.UK>
Subject: Re: Quickenings and wards.
Date: Wed, 24 Sep 1997 15:44:46 GMT
David Buehrer writes
> Mark Steedman wrote:
> |
> | Before everyone says, just use spell locks, they can be turned off,
> | well ok but how would you like my mage with spell locked levitate
> | person and improved invis and personal bullet barrier 9+mods, who
> | with ruthymoid ploymers is immune (due to not being seen, far too few
> | people look up for mundane snipers on buildings let alone flying
> | invisible mages) to just about anything but astral security. And that
> | except the ploymers maybe is easy at creation.
>
> No problem. They become the ultimate thief and gain a huge rep. Then
> one day they're hired for a really big job. They set up, go in, and
> get the "item" and turn it over to the Johnson that hired them who
> pays them and sends them on their merry way. The corporation that
> "lost" the item sends a troubleshooting team to get the item back
> (much cheaper than setting up impenetrable security). The team has
> full access to corporate resources. The thief suddenly finds himself
> the object of a very organized, methodical manhunt. He starts losing
> friends and contacts as the troubleshooters close in on him. What's
> he gonna do? <EGMG>
>
The problem i see here is twofold.
1) identify the thief, assuming you never saw him (there are plenty
of solutions to not leaving ritual links lying about if the GM gets
very nasty) ok you can crack the corp that hired him, but first
identify them. Sure enough money in the shadows will find the ID if
they did legwork. though they may just hire the team back, i have a
AAA mega at the moment that would kind of like to hire the runners
that just hit them because they appeared to just appear and disappear
(even after being found) inside a super secure area and the sec team
was really pissed when a very through search found out how :)

2) what do you gain from killing his contacts etc once Johnson has
the item, revenge does not help the bottom line, it will happen from
time to time but.


> I see a lot of, "How am I going to stop this
> character?" when GMs should be thinking, "How am I going to react
> to this character?"

I may say this was mostly used as an example of the problems forcing
folks to turn off spell locks cause. I have had a mage who sustained
levitate and improved invis a lot, and had ruthymoid polymers. I got
really fed up of every sec team in sight having ultrasound! because
the GM could not cope (though watching one GM's reaction to 'the
autocannon targets you, [me] 'how we're 500m down range :)' was kind
of fun (i had been watching through clairvoyance and had the levitate
and elemental with movement power all set up for a quick escape) )

I generally allow PC's to do things, if they are good enough to waltz
it, well they do. This attracts hiring for even better stuff, my high
powered Sunday folks have gotten used to 250K each demands, because
thats what has been seen, so they are going to get hired by folks who
value their lives/job more than 2 million yen and expect opposition
that bad. Yes it is going to get nasty :)

You have a point, too many people do respond 'my ...... [character
type] is doing ........' how do i stop it, well how to respond is
probably better. Being invisible and undetectable is all well and
good, fine give the team bodyguard work, invisible guard don't deter
:) [also if they have the targets travel plans fun really can break
out, oh i'm waiting, and the Ambush is populated from NERPS Edge
runners :) ]

Mark
Message no. 5
From: "Wendy Wanders, Subject 117" <KGGEWEHR@******.ACS.MUOHIO.EDU>
Subject: Re: Quickenings and wards.
Date: Wed, 24 Sep 1997 11:57:37 -0500
You wrote:
> > Either way, every mage on the ritual tema that cast the ward knows something
> > was attacking the ward, and wherever they are they're probably pushing
> > their little warning buttons to alert the security system at the site
> > you're invading.
> >
> This rule came in with Awakenings (and is yet another case where the
> FASA published version is inferior to Steves origonal version if
> you've seen both), and i tend to ignore it the reason beiong it
> really frags with the balance in the game if the magcians cannot have
> boosts to their abilities and the sammies can. It's quite simple if
> the bad guys can afford a ward plus backup i'm plain not going in
> there without some reflex increases, plain forget it (never mind
> detect enemies and the other 101 uses for a quickened spell).

> Before everyone says, just use spell locks, they can be turned off,
> well ok but how would you like my mage with spell locked levitate
> person and improved invis and personal bullet barrier 9+mods, who
> with ruthymoid ploymers is immune (due to not being seen, far too few
> people look up for mundane snipers on buildings let alone flying
> invisible mages) to just about anything but astral security. And that
> except the ploymers maybe is easy at creation.
I was with you up to this point. Now I'm confused. What does the deadliness
of this character have to do with whether or not spell locks are a solution to
the 'wards twig to quickened spells passing through them'?

Characters who want
permanent advantages in the form of spell effects must either deal with the
astral vulnerability of it (force 1 on all spell locks) or have a beacon that
gives them away astrally (quickening, anchoring). There is a price for that
sort of power. You also have to leave your elementals at home... Wards are
expensive as hell, as you said, shouldn't be seen everywhere, and when you see
them, they denote serious security and require other methods.

> Used sensible masked spells are incredible (if the GM's paying
> attention and the players don't find a few loopholes) they are the
> magicians answer to cyber, typically not quite as effective but they
> give magicians a chance, if you are going to put wards on everything
> put rating 10 MAD scanners set for cyber on every entrance as well,
> its fair then the sammie walking in the door trips everything just as
> fast and the players will in short order turn down future runs like
> than [unless allowed and inclinded to take a banshee to blow security
> into the next centuary first, followed by a very rapid departure
> ahead of the backup]
I agree that a cyberware scanner shouldn't be too great an expense if you're
paying out for wards or other astral security. By the same token, corps with
money for some astral security, but not wards, would often have the money for
some spirits (a few thousand nuyen spent when things are tough and you think
your competitors might be wanting something you have). Spirits and/or mages
projecting and walking around the grounds would not be uncommon for powerful
corps, imo, just because of corporate vulnerability otherwise. Astral secirity
is a necessity in 2050, if you have something worth stealing and you're a
corporation. If nothing else, hellhounds and the like would be patrolling to
watch for astrally active things.

It has always been my opinion that one of a mage's biggest drawbacks is his
ability to be recognized a such, all the time, in astral. This is why I
dislike Masking so much, it starts taking away the drawbacks that mages have as
a result of what they are.

losthalo
Message no. 6
From: "Wendy Wanders, Subject 117" <KGGEWEHR@******.ACS.MUOHIO.EDU>
Subject: Re: Quickenings and wards.
Date: Wed, 24 Sep 1997 12:22:53 -0500
You wrote:
> No problem. They become the ultimate thief and gain a huge rep. Then
> one day they're hired for a really big job. They set up, go in, and
> get the "item" and turn it over to the Johnson that hired them who
> pays them and sends them on their merry way. The corporation that
> "lost" the item sends a troubleshooting team to get the item back
> (much cheaper than setting up impenetrable security). The team has
> full access to corporate resources. The thief suddenly finds himself
> the object of a very organized, methodical manhunt. He starts losing
> friends and contacts as the troubleshooters close in on him. What's
> he gonna do? <EGMG>

> I see a lot of, "How am I going to stop this character?" when GMs
> should be thinking, "How am I going to react to this character?"

And as for getting sniped, assassinated by this guy: everyone starts getting
paranoid about the Invisible Sniper. Those who are likely targets, corp
personnel and higher crime figures, start taking precautions: don't go out
unless you have to (corp-types can usually get all they want on corp property
anyway, going out is just for fun); don't advertise who you are or where you're
going, no one is told until you decide to go; keep security around, magical
sorts if possible, to either notice this guy or to cack him even after the job
to eliminate the threat; set up traps for him, where astral security is hidden
around a likely target unobtrusively, and waits... Word gets around when
someone finds something that bypasses traditional protection. You'd likely,
after the third or second hit, become a target of wetwork hired out by
Lone Star through a third party.

losthalo
Message no. 7
From: "Wendy Wanders, Subject 117" <KGGEWEHR@******.ACS.MUOHIO.EDU>
Subject: Re: Quickenings and wards.
Date: Wed, 24 Sep 1997 12:46:27 -0500
You wrote:
> > I see a lot of, "How am I going to stop this
> > character?" when GMs should be thinking, "How am I going to react
> > to this character?"

> I may say this was mostly used as an example of the problems forcing
> folks to turn off spell locks cause. I have had a mage who sustained
> levitate and improved invis a lot, and had ruthymoid polymers. I got
> really fed up of every sec team in sight having ultrasound! because
> the GM could not cope
Spending your time coming up with 'invincible' abilities is annoying to any GM.
If a lot of people in the game world start using invis and polymers to snipe
without being seen, well, you'll see a lot of secguards with ultrasound. And
specifically how else should the GM have handled it, if you didn't like what
did happen?

> I generally allow PC's to do things, if they are good enough to waltz
> it, well they do. This attracts hiring for even better stuff, my high
> powered Sunday folks have gotten used to 250K each demands, because
> thats what has been seen, so they are going to get hired by folks who
> value their lives/job more than 2 million yen and expect opposition
> that bad. Yes it is going to get nasty :)
Me, I don't like it when the PCs are allowed combos that no one else has
'figured out'. How long have the polymers and the invisibility spell been
around? Corps pay mages and security staff to find solutions to things like
this. You may waltz in once, but people take notice of it, and work to fill
the gap.

> You have a point, too many people do respond 'my ...... [character
> type] is doing ........' how do i stop it, well how to respond is
> probably better. Being invisible and undetectable is all well and
> good, fine give the team bodyguard work, invisible guard don't deter
> :) [also if they have the targets travel plans fun really can break
> out, oh i'm waiting, and the Ambush is populated from NERPS Edge
> runners :) ]
This I don't like. Saying that the characters don't get offered any more jobs
like the one they performed so *well* last week? "Uh, yeah. Nothing but
bodyguard work, now. Sorry." No, the character would get hired for more of
the same, and would have to deal with the new measures against his little
tricks.

losthalo
Message no. 8
From: Max Rible <slothman@*********.ORG>
Subject: Re: Quickenings and wards.
Date: Wed, 24 Sep 1997 10:33:22 -0800
At 13:44 9/24/97 GMT, Mark Steedman wrote:
>Max Rible writes
>> Quickened spells aren't very powerful, actually. They're astral entities,
>> so the moment you walk through a ward, the ward will attempt to chew up
>> your quickened spell.

>> Either way, every mage on the ritual team that cast the ward knows
something
>> was attacking the ward, and wherever they are they're probably pushing
>> their little warning buttons to alert the security system at the site
>> you're invading.

>This rule came in with Awakenings (and is yet another case where the
>FASA published version is inferior to Steves origonal version if
>you've seen both),

Did it come in with Awakenings? I thought wards pinging their creators
was in the main book, and Quickenings being astral entities in the Grimoire.
It's entirely possible that if it did come in with Awakenings, it was put
there for a good reason. Steve, are you reading this thread? Any opinions?

>The 'sparkle when the magical item passes through the ward' effect is
>ok, and even the rules are ok when you consider wards cost arround
>400000 yen/year just in materials let alone mage wages each ward
>(which is enough to cover a 'typical' house if you have a team of
>mages working on it) so should be very VERY rare.

Depends on the ward. If you use a ritual team on the ward and cast
it at low force, it's not that expensive.

--
%% Max Rible %% slothman@*****.com %% http://www.amurgsval.org/~slothman/ %%
%% "Before enlightenment: sharpen claws, catch mice. %%
%% After enlightenment: sharpen claws, catch mice." - me %%
Message no. 9
From: Mark Steedman <M.J.Steedman@***.RGU.AC.UK>
Subject: Re: Quickenings and wards.
Date: Thu, 25 Sep 1997 10:44:14 GMT
Wendy Wanders writes
>
> > Before everyone says, just use spell locks, they can be turned off,
> > well ok but how would you like my mage with spell locked levitate
> > person and improved invis and personal bullet barrier 9+mods, who
> > with ruthymoid ploymers is immune (due to not being seen, far too few
> > people look up for mundane snipers on buildings let alone flying
> > invisible mages) to just about anything but astral security. And that
> > except the ploymers maybe is easy at creation.
> I was with you up to this point. Now I'm confused. What does the deadliness
> of this character have to do with whether or not spell locks are a solution to
> the 'wards twig to quickened spells passing through them'?
>
It was intended as an example of why allowing spell locks to be
switched on and off is potentially disasterous for game balance.
Things can get bad enough without that, and turned off locks pass
through wards, quickening cannot be turned off.

> Characters who want
> permanent advantages in the form of spell effects must either deal with the
> astral vulnerability of it (force 1 on all spell locks) or have a beacon that
> gives them away astrally (quickening, anchoring). There is a price for that
> sort of power.
True. But the simple fact is with wired sammies going about you have
them or die the moment you get ambushed.

> You also have to leave your elementals at home... Wards are
> expensive as hell, as you said, shouldn't be seen everywhere, and when you see
> them, they denote serious security and require other methods.
>
Agreed.

> > Used sensible masked spells are incredible (if the GM's paying

> > give magicians a chance, if you are going to put wards on everything
> > put rating 10 MAD scanners set for cyber on every entrance as well,

> I agree that a cyberware scanner shouldn't be too great an expense if you're
> paying out for wards or other astral security. By the same token, corps with
> money for some astral security, but not wards, would often have the money for
> some spirits (a few thousand nuyen spent when things are tough and you think
> your competitors might be wanting something you have). Spirits and/or mages
> projecting and walking around the grounds would not be uncommon for powerful
> corps, imo, just because of corporate vulnerability otherwise. Astral secirity
> is a necessity in 2050, if you have something worth stealing and you're a
> corporation. If nothing else, hellhounds and the like would be patrolling to
> watch for astrally active things.
>
Generally i rate permanent astrally patrolling elementals as fairly
common in major corporations. There is a rule in the grimoire that
allows them for kamra to serve for ever. Sure it costs in karma but
thats one off, and the conjouring cost is low, and to a copr mage you
get quite a lot of bang for that karmic buck. This is probably the
most common feature for major league astral security.

> It has always been my opinion that one of a mage's biggest drawbacks is his
> ability to be recognized a such, all the time, in astral. This is why I
> dislike Masking so much, it starts taking away the drawbacks that mages have as
> a result of what they are.
>
And the reason i rate it as the number 1 metamagic power. Masking
foci simply is the only way magicians can survive at high power
levels without getting cybered up and i just don;t agree with forcing
folks to cyber their magicians to keep them playable, i like the
roleplaying of staying pure magic (although from a power point of view
there are a few things even as the system stands that only
cybre/bioware can do)

Mark
Message no. 10
From: Mark Steedman <M.J.Steedman@***.RGU.AC.UK>
Subject: Re: Quickenings and wards.
Date: Thu, 25 Sep 1997 10:59:55 GMT
Wendy Wanders writes
>
> > I may say this was mostly used as an example of the problems forcing
> > folks to turn off spell locks cause. I have had a mage who sustained
> > levitate and improved invis a lot, and had ruthymoid polymers. I got
> > really fed up of every sec team in sight having ultrasound! because
> > the GM could not cope
> Spending your time coming up with 'invincible' abilities is annoying to any GM.
> If a lot of people in the game world start using invis and polymers to snipe
> without being seen, well, you'll see a lot of secguards with ultrasound. And
> specifically how else should the GM have handled it, if you didn't like what
> did happen?
>
I was pushing things in order to survive. I had cases where the team
got ambushed and despite 6+4D6 initiative bad guys were going twice
before me regularly! I wouldn't have minded these sort of measures
when appropriate but it got to the stage where i couldn't do
anything, i was going out of my way to sneak and the GM wouldn't
allow it!

As to what do you do about this, well once you meet actual close up
security or inside buildings it doesn't help much, also sustaining 2
spells plays hell with your TN's (why i despise spell locks you can
turn on and off as this then becomes possible without the TN problem)
It was mostly the fact that every set of badguys always had the same
uncommon solution that got me. Note all this is useless once you have
to engage the bad guys, open the door (alarmed) etc.

[i now switch from things i did as a player in another game to the
game i'm running]

> > I generally allow PC's to do things, if they are good enough to waltz
> > it, well they do. This attracts hiring for even better stuff, my high
> > powered Sunday folks have gotten used to 250K each demands, because
> > thats what has been seen, so they are going to get hired by folks who
> > value their lives/job more than 2 million yen and expect opposition
> > that bad. Yes it is going to get nasty :)
> Me, I don't like it when the PCs are allowed combos that no one else has
> 'figured out'. How long have the polymers and the invisibility spell been
> around? Corps pay mages and security staff to find solutions to things like
> this. You may waltz in once, but people take notice of it, and work to fill
> the gap.
You are going on about the other stuff above still. I as a GM watch
for players with nasty tricks. No i wouldn't have complained about
the occasional badguy with polymers and inproved invis in the game i
was using it in, that would have been fair, 100 percent of all goons
having ultrasound well, the '100 percent', was the problem!

> > You have a point, too many people do respond 'my ...... [character
> > type] is doing ........' how do i stop it, well how to respond is
> > probably better. Being invisible and undetectable is all well and
> > good, fine give the team bodyguard work, invisible guard don't deter
> > :) [also if they have the targets travel plans fun really can break
> > out, oh i'm waiting, and the Ambush is populated from NERPS Edge
> > runners :) ]
> This I don't like. Saying that the characters don't get offered any more jobs
> like the one they performed so *well* last week? "Uh, yeah. Nothing but
> bodyguard work, now. Sorry." No, the character would get hired for more of
> the same, and would have to deal with the new measures against his little
> tricks.
>
You would have a point if that was the case, but then you are having
to comment without all the facts.
This little 'bodyguarding job' is paying 250Kyen/runner and involves
getting from Seattle to Poland by surface transport the lady has
arranged (there is a reason she has not told them that
planes/teleporting/levitation spells etc are banned). Problem 1 is
some terrorists decided to hijack the QE3 they are on in the middle
of the Atlantic :), problem 2 will be an ambush.

The other probelm with giving them more 'ultra high quality'
corporate runs is the poor GM needs the time to design them, the
facility they just knocked over in about 5 hours took me over a month
to design! And there is a limit to building reuse (and at these power
levels i need to make notes because i don't like the 'no you cannot
so that because i just changed the adventure to stop it' style of
GMing its plain not fair! i call it railroading and it gets old fast
if the only way you can do an adventure is the one the GM will allow)

I am designing another corporate run in the league of the one they
just did but i need the time in the real world so they are getting
somethings thats a sheet of notes a group of terrorists from stats
from my GM's file and some runners from NERPS because it took a
couple of hours to prep.

Mark
Message no. 11
From: Mark Steedman <M.J.Steedman@***.RGU.AC.UK>
Subject: Re: Quickenings and wards.
Date: Thu, 25 Sep 1997 11:24:02 GMT
Max Rible writes

> >This rule came in with Awakenings (and is yet another case where the
> >FASA published version is inferior to Steves origonal version if
> >you've seen both),
>
> Did it come in with Awakenings? I thought wards pinging their creators
> was in the main book,
that probably is.

> and Quickenings being astral entities in the Grimoire.
certainly because thats where they are described.

> It's entirely possible that if it did come in with Awakenings, it was put
> there for a good reason. Steve, are you reading this thread? Any opinions?
>
The bit that is in awakenings is the 'wards destroy / fight '
quickenings and foci bit.

> >The 'sparkle when the magical item passes through the ward' effect is
> >ok, and even the rules are ok when you consider wards cost arround
> >400000 yen/year just in materials let alone mage wages each ward
> >(which is enough to cover a 'typical' house if you have a team of
> >mages working on it) so should be very VERY rare.
>
> Depends on the ward. If you use a ritual team on the ward and cast
> it at low force, it's not that expensive.
>
It's pretty expensive, they don't last long and ritual teams are very
expensive for a few hours every week per ward.
Also although this does dramatically improve the wards size its still
pretty small compared to an office block (even a small one). Ok a
floor of research labs but by the time you get that close the mage
just waits outside the door on rear guard. (hes often the one with
the invis to keep a subtle eye out for guards anyway)

Mark
Message no. 12
From: "Wendy Wanders, Subject 117" <KGGEWEHR@******.ACS.MUOHIO.EDU>
Subject: Re: Quickenings and wards.
Date: Thu, 25 Sep 1997 10:24:52 -0500
You wrote:
> It was intended as an example of why allowing spell locks to be
> switched on and off is potentially disasterous for game balance.
> Things can get bad enough without that, and turned off locks pass
> through wards, quickening cannot be turned off.
The spell lock's advantage is its onagainoffagain, the quickening's advantage
is a higher force for attacking it, and no chance of grounding through it [at
least that's how I'd rule it, not trynna start THAT up again]. *shrug*

> True. But the simple fact is with wired sammies going about you have
> them or die the moment you get ambushed.
That's what Detect Enemies is for, not to mention reconnaisance. Mages are
better at recon than anyone else, spirits, detection spells, etc. Also, mages
tend to have high combat pools which are used for nothing else than defense,
and if they survive the first salvo, their sammies should be returning fire and
drawing it away from the mage. But yeah, I do see your point, it's just that
the sammie pays essence for his cyber, and a _lot_ of it for reflex boosts. The
mage, paying 1 Karma for a lock or Karma equal to the force for a quickened
spell, doesn't seem equal to me. The vulnerability of those two makes it
risky, same as the sam pays something for his reflex increases. The mage's
drawback is ever that he's vulnerable to magic, he shows up easily on the
astral, spirits can be sent to attack his foci. The sam's is that not only
does he suffer the ill effects of low essence (again, this varies from group to
group, but many see low essence as uncomfortable or bad for the character's
sanity), and scanners pick up his cyber (scanners being more common by far than
astral security of any sort). The samurai can't even head into an arcology
mall or other public places if they have scanners... the mage? If he's being
suspicious astral security will bug him, otherwise, he's a curiosity. He can
travel to those places. So, let the mage have his reflex increases, he'll just
have to deal with the downside, try to find a way around it. Perhaps try
designing a spell specifically for penetrating wards with such permanent spells
in tow? Or attempt some sort of distraction?

> Generally i rate permanent astrally patrolling elementals as fairly
> common in major corporations. There is a rule in the grimoire that
> allows them for kamra to serve for ever. Sure it costs in karma but
> thats one off, and the conjouring cost is low, and to a copr mage you
> get quite a lot of bang for that karmic buck. This is probably the
> most common feature for major league astral security.
Exactly. And that sort of security you can try to circumvent more easily than
the ward which alerts its castersof any intrusion (I'm still a little unsure of
why that rule was implemented, since other barriers only let the caster know
when they've been disrupted *shrug*).

> And the reason i rate it as the number 1 metamagic power. Masking
> foci simply is the only way magicians can survive at high power
> levels without getting cybered up and i just don;t agree with forcing
> folks to cyber their magicians to keep them playable, i like the
> roleplaying of staying pure magic (although from a power point of view
> there are a few things even as the system stands that only
> cybre/bioware can do)
I wouldn't give magicians no choice but to cyber up, but... why exactly do they
have to use masking? I ask because I don't allow masking in any way, shape or
form for magicians. I prefer things to not be capable of hiding on the astral
aside from, say Astral Static. This because I see the astral as a place of
true forms, shapeshifters appear as their animal form, dragons look like
dragons, illusion spells don't affect it... Masking also has that 'you're not
an initiate so you can't do anything about it' quality to it, which I don't
like. Quickening, centering, anchoring, shielding, they all complement
existing abilities. You can kill a quickened spell, anchorings get used up and
you can defend against them, centering just removes penalites, and shielding
just makes it harder to cast spells. Masking, unless you are an initiate, you
don't see anything unusual, no chance to penetrate it at all.

losthalo
Message no. 13
From: "Wendy Wanders, Subject 117" <KGGEWEHR@******.ACS.MUOHIO.EDU>
Subject: Re: Quickenings and wards.
Date: Thu, 25 Sep 1997 10:48:48 -0500
You wrote:
> I was pushing things in order to survive. I had cases where the team
> got ambushed and despite 6+4D6 initiative bad guys were going twice
> before me regularly! I wouldn't have minded these sort of measures
> when appropriate but it got to the stage where i couldn't do
> anything, i was going out of my way to sneak and the GM wouldn't
> allow it!
Sounds like you and the GM were in an arms race... that sucks. "The bad guys
just have better stuff than you" is a poor way to make the players work hard.
I tend to, if anything, give the players something equivalent to their power
and let them think their way around things, or use other methods to deal with
it.

> As to what do you do about this, well once you meet actual close up
> security or inside buildings it doesn't help much, also sustaining 2
> spells plays hell with your TN's (why i despise spell locks you can
> turn on and off as this then becomes possible without the TN problem)
> It was mostly the fact that every set of badguys always had the same
> uncommon solution that got me. Note all this is useless once you have
> to engage the bad guys, open the door (alarmed) etc.
Well, the spell locks are a big target waiting to get shot in astral space
(same goes for quickenings, they're just harder to shoot). I do wonder about
the 2nd ed decision to allow spell locks to be turned on and off like a switch,
since it was a change from 1st ed.

> [i now switch from things i did as a player in another game to the
> game i'm running]

> You are going on about the other stuff above still. I as a GM watch
> for players with nasty tricks. No i wouldn't have complained about
> the occasional badguy with polymers and inproved invis in the game i
> was using it in, that would have been fair, 100 percent of all goons
> having ultrasound well, the '100 percent', was the problem!
Yes. It depends though on how many times you'd invisibly sniped someone...
After a while, ultrasound seems a cheap option to protect corp interests. But
yeah, I'd think the GM would feel he was cheating a bit. "Yeah, of course they
have ultrasound." OTOH, invisibility and Nature Spirit Concealment power are
common stealth enhancers for SR teams, so it's not a big stretch for ultrasound
to become common (or thermo, which also sees through invis). Corps have been
seeing magic for decades now, so they do know some of the common
countermeasures. But the GM throwing that in just to get your char sucks.

> You would have a point if that was the case, but then you are having
> to comment without all the facts.
> This little 'bodyguarding job' is paying 250Kyen/runner and involves
> getting from Seattle to Poland by surface transport the lady has
> arranged (there is a reason she has not told them that
> planes/teleporting/levitation spells etc are banned). Problem 1 is
> some terrorists decided to hijack the QE3 they are on in the middle
> of the Atlantic :), problem 2 will be an ambush.
Me, I wouldn't take a job that took me that far out've town, byut that's just
me.

> The other probelm with giving them more 'ultra high quality'
> corporate runs is the poor GM needs the time to design them, the
> facility they just knocked over in about 5 hours took me over a month
> to design! And there is a limit to building reuse (and at these power
> levels i need to make notes because i don't like the 'no you cannot
> so that because i just changed the adventure to stop it' style of
> GMing its plain not fair! i call it railroading and it gets old fast
> if the only way you can do an adventure is the one the GM will allow)
Hmm. Instead of corp targets, maybe give them a few runs against some
organized crime? Put the frighteners on a few up-and-coming Mafia men that are
bugging someone, or intercept a shipment of small arms being smuggled into the
harbor, or something similar. The Yakuza, given their level of influence in
Seattle, make it tough on people who go after them, they have the resources to
make it difficult for a team. Orrrrrrr... Have some past problems the
characters had come back to haunt them while they're looking for that next big
job. An old enemy finally tracks them down, or a Lone Star cop comes looking
for a bribe to ignore some evidence... A decker happens to rob one of their
false-SIN bank accounts. :)

> I am designing another corporate run in the league of the one they
> just did but i need the time in the real world so they are getting
> somethings thats a sheet of notes a group of terrorists from stats
> from my GM's file and some runners from NERPS because it took a
> couple of hours to prep.

Here's another idea: got anyone in the group that's up to running a game or
two? If you need a lot of time to prep, maybe someone else could come up with
a run, even let you play for a session or two? My original group, we always
shared GMing duties between the two or three that could run well, so everyone
got to play. This worked well for AD&D, SR, and other games, though I was sole
GM for Call ot Cthulhu. But sharing the duties, even if just once in a while,
makes the burden a lot lighter.

losthalo
Message no. 14
From: Mark Steedman <M.J.Steedman@***.RGU.AC.UK>
Subject: Re: Quickenings and wards.
Date: Thu, 25 Sep 1997 16:11:17 GMT
Wendy Wanders writes

> You wrote:
> > It was intended as an example of why allowing spell locks to be
> > switched on and off is potentially disasterous for game balance.
> > Things can get bad enough without that, and turned off locks pass
> > through wards, quickening cannot be turned off.
> The spell lock's advantage is its onagainoffagain, the quickening's advantage
> is a higher force for attacking it, and no chance of grounding through it [at
> least that's how I'd rule it, not trynna start THAT up again]. *shrug*
>
No i don't want that again, even if you disallow switching on and off
spell locks it can be done with anchoring so. I just find the idea of
folks starting the game with improved invis they threw an elemental
and a pile of fetish foci in they can turn on and off for a simple
action and no drain a little nasty, yes note those fetish foci, dice,
can we say horrible great handfuls of dice, sure its expensive but
the effect is extreame.

> > True. But the simple fact is with wired sammies going about you have
> > them or die the moment you get ambushed.
> That's what Detect Enemies is for,
Which i always use, but, 'you detect them comming roll initiative,
you get shot, shot shot,' is hopeless, if i had GM's again that were
a bit kinder when i'm playing life might be tolerable but the last
two decently powered games i played i got real fed up of 'you find
out combats starting (despite detect enemies) and get shot and
grenaded 5 time before having a 'dive for cover' move let alone
shooting back even with reflex boosts.

> not to mention reconnaisance. Mages are
> better at recon than anyone else, spirits, detection spells, etc. Also, mages
> tend to have high combat pools which are used for nothing else than defense,
True, though 'high' combat pools are usually more than offset by the
sammies body attribute.

> and if they survive the first salvo, their sammies should be returning fire and
> drawing it away from the mage. But yeah, I do see your point, it's just that
> the sammie pays essence for his cyber, and a _lot_ of it for reflex boosts. The
> mage, paying 1 Karma for a lock or Karma equal to the force for a quickened
> spell, doesn't seem equal to me.
True, though the lock does cost 45K yen and you have to know the
spell it can be a bit cheap compared.

> The vulnerability of those two makes it
> risky, same as the sam pays something for his reflex increases. The mage's
> drawback is ever that he's vulnerable to magic, he shows up easily on the
> astral, spirits can be sent to attack his foci. The sam's is that not only
> does he suffer the ill effects of low essence (again, this varies from group to
> group, but many see low essence as uncomfortable or bad for the character's
> sanity), and scanners pick up his cyber (scanners being more common by far than
> astral security of any sort). The samurai can't even head into an arcology
> mall or other public places if they have scanners... the mage? If he's being
> suspicious astral security will bug him, otherwise, he's a curiosity. He can
> travel to those places. So, let the mage have his reflex increases, he'll just
> have to deal with the downside, try to find a way around it. Perhaps try
> designing a spell specifically for penetrating wards with such permanent spells
> in tow? Or attempt some sort of distraction?
>
genarally agreeable.

> > Generally i rate permanent astrally patrolling elementals as fairly
> > common in major corporations. There is a rule in the grimoire that
> > allows them for kamra to serve for ever. Sure it costs in karma but
> > thats one off, and the conjouring cost is low, and to a copr mage you
> > get quite a lot of bang for that karmic buck. This is probably the
> > most common feature for major league astral security.
> Exactly. And that sort of security you can try to circumvent more easily than
> the ward which alerts its castersof any intrusion (I'm still a little unsure of
> why that rule was implemented, since other barriers only let the caster know
> when they've been disrupted *shrug*).
>
Yes, masking being the best solution, though expensive in initiation
to obtain you need a grade per spell.

> > And the reason i rate it as the number 1 metamagic power. Masking
> > foci simply is the only way magicians can survive at high power
> > levels without getting cybered up and i just don;t agree with forcing
> > folks to cyber their magicians to keep them playable, i like the
> > roleplaying of staying pure magic (although from a power point of view
> > there are a few things even as the system stands that only
> > cybre/bioware can do)
> I wouldn't give magicians no choice but to cyber up, but... why exactly do they
> have to use masking? I ask because I don't allow masking in any way, shape or
> form for magicians. I prefer things to not be capable of hiding on the astral
> aside from, say Astral Static. This because I see the astral as a place of
> true forms, shapeshifters appear as their animal form, dragons look like
> dragons, illusion spells don't affect it...
Yeah but otherwise there are problems because those locks are real
deadly to the owner if you're not careful.

> Masking also has that 'you're not
> an initiate so you can't do anything about it' quality to it, which I don't
> like.
actually you can, try a little 'detect magic' spell, this finds foci
etc in range, now if the guys got three magic items and appears
mundane the comment 'grade three plus initiate get the swat squad!!!
springs to mind :), i loath the day a player find that one :) i had
enough fun with it as a player though never got thats useage it did
lovely as a danger free replacement for perception for astral drek
detection.

> Quickening, centering, anchoring, shielding, they all complement
> existing abilities. You can kill a quickened spell, anchorings get used up and
> you can defend against them, centering just removes penalites, and shielding
> just makes it harder to cast spells. Masking, unless you are an initiate, you
> don't see anything unusual, no chance to penetrate it at all.
>
See above. But yes it can be rather good. I rate it as the best
abiltiy.

Mark
Message no. 15
From: "Wendy Wanders, Subject 117" <KGGEWEHR@******.ACS.MUOHIO.EDU>
Subject: Re: Quickenings and wards.
Date: Thu, 25 Sep 1997 19:45:37 -0500
You wrote:
> No i don't want that again, even if you disallow switching on and off
> spell locks it can be done with anchoring so. I just find the idea of
> folks starting the game with improved invis they threw an elemental
> and a pile of fetish foci in they can turn on and off for a simple
> action and no drain a little nasty, yes note those fetish foci, dice,
> can we say horrible great handfuls of dice, sure its expensive but
> the effect is extreame.
Yes, handfuls of dice are horrible in SR. That's why I despise combat pool,
and karma pool. There are always those extra dice and rerolls lying around to
save people, or make the ambush that much more deadly, and they make a sniper
just plain ludicrous.

> Which i always use, but, 'you detect them comming roll initiative,
> you get shot, shot shot,' is hopeless, if i had GM's again that were
> a bit kinder when i'm playing life might be tolerable but the last
> two decently powered games i played i got real fed up of 'you find
> out combats starting (despite detect enemies) and get shot and
> grenaded 5 time before having a 'dive for cover' move let alone
> shooting back even with reflex boosts.
Talk with the GM when things like this happen. If they don't have a good
solution, they probably shouldn't be running games, and aren't worth playing
with. Game mechanic changes don't solve these problems.

losthalo
Message no. 16
From: Timothy Little <t_little@**********.UTAS.EDU.AU>
Subject: Re: Quickenings and wards.
Date: Fri, 26 Sep 1997 11:22:51 +1000
At 07:14 AM 9/24/97 -0600, David wrote:
[... how to stop levitating invisible mage with ruthenium polymers? ...]
>
>No problem. They become the ultimate thief and gain a huge rep.

Strange as it may seem, I *have* a character with levitate/invis/polymers.
He is most definitely a good thief, but doesn't claim any invididual merit
for his successful infiltrations - they're always part of a team effort.

It isn't public knowledge who in the team does that sneaky work, and since he
hasn't been caught yet, the corp doesn't know either.
In some cases, they don't know they were robbed - the best crime is never
discovered.

> Then
>one day they're hired for a really big job. They set up, go in, and
>get the "item" and turn it over to the Johnson that hired them who
>pays them and sends them on their merry way. The corporation that
>"lost" the item sends a troubleshooting team to get the item back
>(much cheaper than setting up impenetrable security). The team has
>full access to corporate resources. The thief suddenly finds himself
>the object of a very organized, methodical manhunt. He starts losing
>friends and contacts as the troubleshooters close in on him. What's
>he gonna do? <EGMG>

If the corp knows what happened, we haven't done as well as we planned.
If the corp knows who set it up, someone leaked.
If the corp knows who did it, we disappear - that's what the 'shadow' in
shadowrunner means.
If the corp knows who our friends are, they've already found us.
If our friends start turning up dead, we disappear and hit back big.

In our game it's against the unwritten rules for a corp to do this.
Breaking the rules gives the corp a bad name among the shadow community,
just as similar behaviour gets a bad rep for runners.
eg. Aztechnology has broken these rules a number of times, including once
against our group. Since they've repeatedly placed themselves outside the
rules, it's a general presumption not to limit collateral damage as much
against the Azzies as runners do against other corps.

>I see a lot of, "How am I going to stop this character?" when GMs
>should be thinking, "How am I going to react to this character?"

I partially agree.

GMs should be thinking "how can I stop such characters" from the point of
view of the corp, who don't know the exact capabilities of the runners.

A GM thinking "how can I stop these particular characters" is probably using
OOC knowledge, just like a player would be if they read the "GM only"
sections
of a sourcebook. Both are unfair and unrealistic.

--
Tim Little
Message no. 17
From: Mark Steedman <M.J.Steedman@***.RGU.AC.UK>
Subject: Re: Quickenings and wards.
Date: Fri, 26 Sep 1997 09:55:43 GMT
Wendy Wanders writes

> > Which i always use, but, 'you detect them comming roll initiative,
> > you get shot, shot shot,' is hopeless, if i had GM's again that were
> > a bit kinder when i'm playing life might be tolerable but the last
> > two decently powered games i played i got real fed up of 'you find
> > out combats starting (despite detect enemies) and get shot and
> > grenaded 5 time before having a 'dive for cover' move let alone
> > shooting back even with reflex boosts.
> Talk with the GM when things like this happen.
i tried.

> If they don't have a good
> solution, they probably shouldn't be running games, and aren't worth playing
> with. Game mechanic changes don't solve these problems.
>
I had some pretty serious things to say at the time. I got out of one
game for this complaint. The annoying thing is though when most of
the other will put up (because they have hiddeously wired mundanes) a
solution without managing to find a totally unconnected group is
tricky, and as this was already at the club.

Thankfully things have improved, though i still wish i could play
another long term SR game with a really good and reliably so GM, some
have been good 50% of the time, and annoying as above at others which
wrecked my trust for them.

Mark
Message no. 18
From: Mark Steedman <M.J.Steedman@***.RGU.AC.UK>
Subject: Re: Quickenings and wards.
Date: Fri, 26 Sep 1997 10:00:47 GMT
Timothy Little writes

> At 07:14 AM 9/24/97 -0600, David wrote:
> [... how to stop levitating invisible mage with ruthenium polymers? ...]
> >
> >No problem. They become the ultimate thief and gain a huge rep.
>
> Strange as it may seem, I *have* a character with levitate/invis/polymers.
> He is most definitely a good thief, but doesn't claim any invididual merit
> for his successful infiltrations - they're always part of a team effort.
>
Yes i also used it as part of the team. Often because i was the mag
not the dermal armoured sammie, so i hid and sniped as they went in
below. The bad guys already had something to shoot at i was just
ensuring the combat below was a 'little biassed', this is 'war' after
all :)

> GMs should be thinking "how can I stop such characters" from the point of
> view of the corp, who don't know the exact capabilities of the runners.
>
Yes, this is often my comment to the now high powered Sunday game i
run, please, easy on the sec armour, i know by being clever you can
sneak it there but i need an excuse for another load of guys with
APDS and wired 3 and if you force me you get out antitank weapons to
dent your armour, all the will happen is PC's will die. [you would be
amazed what some cunning and a hired atriculated lorry can hide till
its far too late and they don't stay about long enough for the
banshees to arrive, be sensible :) ]

> A GM thinking "how can I stop these particular characters" is probably
using
> OOC knowledge, just like a player would be if they read the "GM only"
> sections
> of a sourcebook. Both are unfair and unrealistic.
>
Yep.

Mark
Message no. 19
From: Steve Kenson <TalonMail@***.COM>
Subject: Re: Quickenings and wards
Date: Fri, 26 Sep 1997 12:47:24 -0400
Max Rible <slothman@*********.ORG> writes:
>Did it come in with Awakenings? I thought wards pinging their creators
>was in the main book, and Quickenings being astral entities in the Grimoire.
>It's entirely possible that if it did come in with Awakenings, it was put
>there for a good reason. Steve, are you reading this thread? Any opinions?

A ward's creator knowing when his wards are attacked is in Grimoire (I don't
have a page reference handy at the moment). Likewise with Quickenings being
astral entities. The rules for wards interacting with stuff like spell locks,
foci, etc. appeared in Awakenings. The logic behind they was wards exist to
keep all active astral intruders out. Passive astral forms can walk through a
ward or astral barrier through the force of their embodied will, carrying
lesser active forms like a lock or a quickening through as they go, but the
ward still gets one free whack at the lock, focus, quickening, etc. as it
passes through.

Mainly it was intended to dissuade characters from walking around with their
magical gear "on" all of the time. I add to the rule the fact that characters
are never affected by their own wards/astral barriers (except for spells like
Mana Barrier) and in most magical traditions, the creator of the wards and
open a "doorway" through it for other people to enter without being affected
by the ward.

Hope that helps,
Steve
Message no. 20
From: David Thompson <david.s.thompson@****.EDU>
Subject: Re: Quickenings and wards.
Date: Fri, 26 Sep 1997 18:45:15 -0400
At 10:24 AM 9/25/97 -0500, you wrote:
Masking, unless you are an initiate, you
>don't see anything unusual, no chance to penetrate it at all.
>

Just step back from the rules for a second on this issues. Sure, another
MAGE type who isn't initiated can't penetrate the masking, but the majority
of mundanes can't astrally percieve at all. What do they do? They just
look at the guy. Hmm, 7' tall, 7' wide, moves with some serious twitching,
and has many mysterious bulges -- that guy is a sammie. Other guy, does
have an apparent neck, doesn't skitter around like he smokes crack, no
panther auto-cannon, and some funky stuff hanging off his jacket -- he is
probably a mage.
This will still work, masking or not, and if you pay attention, you can
probably guess fairly well about who does what. (And before everyone
yells, but my mage wears full military grade armor, or my sammie looks
normal, I don't care. Overall, you can tell by looking who has active
cyber reflex enhancements and who doesn't (IMO), and that is usually a good
start in determining who the mage is or isn't.)

--DT
Message no. 21
From: Tim Cooper <z-i-m@****.COM>
Subject: Re: Quickenings and wards.
Date: Sat, 27 Sep 1997 16:09:49 EDT
On Fri, 26 Sep 1997 18:45:15 -0400 David Thompson writes:

>Just step back from the rules for a second on this issues. Sure,
another
>MAGE type who isn't initiated can't penetrate the masking, but the
majority
>of mundanes can't astrally percieve at all. What do they do? They just
>look at the guy. Hmm, 7' tall, 7' wide, moves with some serious
twitching,
>and has many mysterious bulges -- that guy is a sammie. Other guy, does
>have an apparent neck, doesn't skitter around like he smokes crack, no
>panther auto-cannon, and some funky stuff hanging off his jacket -- he
is
>probably a mage.

Yeah, but just because they guy isn't chromed out to the gills doesn't
mean he's automatically a mage... at least not it the games we run
(YMMV). Also given the prevalence of native american culture in that
area, if you peg every guy with a fringy vest as a shaman you're pretty
well "crying wolf" most of the time. Especially since less than 1% of
the population is magically active.

>This will still work, masking or not, and if you pay attention, you can
>probably guess fairly well about who does what. (And before everyone
>yells, but my mage wears full military grade armor, or my sammie looks
>normal, I don't care. Overall, you can tell by looking who has active
>cyber reflex enhancements and who doesn't (IMO), and that is usually a
good
>start in determining who the mage is or isn't.)

Or who has a reflex trigger... to a degree you have a point, but it's
not something that you could stake your life on.

Heck, I've been in games where EVERYONE, magician or no, had cyber reflex
enhancements.

~Tim

Further Reading

If you enjoyed reading about Quickenings and wards., you may also be interested in:

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