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Message no. 1
From: Bull <chaos@*****.COM>
Subject: Quick Eulogy for the passing of SR2
Date: Mon, 6 Jul 1998 04:17:03 -0400
Well, maybe not :]

Ok, anyways, despite the enormously long weekend, I've decided to plod
along and report all of this while it's fresh in my mind. Who knows how
I'll feel tomorrow after a good nights sleep :]

Anyways, on with the show. This is what FASAMike announced at Origins
fduring the seminars about SR3. He really went into detail about
everything, so...

The details, in no particular order:

1. One of the best and biggest additions isn't a change so much as
something that was very curiously missing from the first two editions of
the game: A detailed explanation of just what shadowrunning was, and who
shadowrunners were. And there is a new piece of fiction in this area as well.

2. Examples. LOTS of examples. This is one area of the book that really
makes it "user friendly". They used examples quite frequently.

3. Initiative gets a slight facelift. This is one I partlicularly like
for various reasons <g>. Basically, the action order has been rearranged
slightly, so that everyone gets to go early in the round, and the
speedsters get all there extra actions later in the round.
Basically, you roll initiative. Everyone goes once, starting with the
highest initiative total. Once everyone has gone once, subtract 10 from
your rolled initiative. Everyone that still has a positive number gets to
go a second time, and so on. It works very well, and fixes the problem of
speedsters vs. magic.

4. Skills. Skills get a major overhaul as well.

-- There are now only General and Concentrations of skills.
-- Active Skills were broken up a lot, especially Firearms. Instead
of a general firearms skill, you now need to learn Pistol, Rifle, SMG, etc.
Then you can Concentrate in a certain type of pistol, or whatever.
-- You get 10 more points per priority than you used to using the
Priority System before. These are used for Active SKills only.
-- You get your Intelligence x 5 in Knowledge Skill points to buy
Knowledge Skills. These cover everything from theory skills to 20th
century comic books.
-- Skills are all linked directly to an attribute now. Your skills
are also limited by your attribute ratings. They cost more to buy above
your attribute (both at Char Gen and during game play with karma).
-- The Skill Web is gone. Instead there is a list with all the
skills grouped with similar skills. You can default to these skills or
your attribute only. No more making Eti tests using your firearms :]

5. Phys ADs are now known as simply Adepts. All the other magical adepts
are now known as Aspected Magicians.

6. Trolls/Elves are now priority C on the race Priority. Dwarves/Orks are D.

7. Etiquette is now chosen like every other skill. You can buy general
Eti, or you can specialize.

8. NPCs have no threat pool any more. Instead they get normal dice pools.

9. They modified the way you get Karma Pool. It's now 1 for every 20
instead of 1 for 10.

10. There will be rules for ways to burn Karma.

11. There is a section that discusses how to set Target Numbers.

12. There are several pages that explains exactly what the skill ratings
mean. They really emphasise the fact that 5-6 is a VERY high rating for
the skill, not "average". :]

13. MAGIC! Honestly, it didn;t look like any really drastic changes got
made. Basically, they reworked the philosophy of how magic works, things
like how Auras interacted and that really fixed a lot of the major problems.

-- Spellcasting is now based on your Sorcery, NOT the force. Force
still detrmines Opponents TN, the effect of the spell, etc. But you roll
your Sorc now instead of the force ewhile casting. I like this since it no
longer means that low level spells are more likely to fail :]
-- Magic Pool has been replaced by Spell Pool. This is now calulated
by adding Int, Will, and Magic, divided by 2 or 3 (I think), instead of
being directly related to the sorcery skill.
-- Spell Locks no longer exist. Instead you have Reuseable Spell
Foci (I think theya re called) that you bond, then you have to cast a spell
into it every time you activate it, and it works at the successes of that
casting. The real difference ebtween this and the locks (other than the
recastings) is that this doesn;t mystically disappear when activated, and
can easily be taken away or stolen.
-- Grounding has been almost eliminated, apparently. Not sure how
the new stuff works, but...
-- The carification of just what and where magic came from helped
explain things like Critter Powers and how they worked.

14. Street Gear! Lots of detailed minor street gear. Stuff like tools
and little stuff :] Woohoo!

15. Legality Ratings added

16. Recoil Compensation has been added to the weapons lists, so that you
know about any built in Recoil Comp.

17. LMGs got moved to Heavy Weapons (The newer version of personal gunnery
skill. Gunnery now covers Vehicle Weapons).

18. List of where weapon mounts go on guns.

19. BTLs, SINs, and the various Credstick rules added.

20. Rules for Spurs, and for using two spurs at once.

21. Boosted Reflexes and Bonelacing added.

22. Most of SSC stuff is added to basic gear lists.

23. Rules for Using Biotech with things like Medkits (Just how do these
work? :))

24. Manifestation gets renamed for Mages and Spirits. Don;t rememebr
which is which, but one gets called Materialization instead of
Manifestation, and the other remains Manifestation. This distinguishes
between what Astral mages do to get seen, and what Spirits do to move to
the physical realm.

25. Alphaware is in and is now basic gear. Price dropped to double
regular cyber. This means players now get to diecided money vs essence
when buying basic cyber.

26. Cyberlimb updates. Two different types, Synthetic limbs vs. Obvious.
Obvious are the big metal clunky kind, but they're cheaper and easier to
add mods. Synth are disguised, cost more, and are harder to add things.

27. Working with the above are guidelines for obvious cyber in public, and
how people react (Not Cyberpsychosis, I think, but more a social reaction).
This also has a section for wearing armor in public.

28. Cyberlimbs get strength boost. Instead of all cyberlimbs having a
strength 3, they start at the "average" strength for the race they are
designed for. 4 for Elves and Humans, 5 for Dwarf, 6 for Ork, and 8 for
Troll, I think.

29. Astral perception gets some modifiers, things like light, etc.

30. Overall, it looks to be a good book. The Manuscript that we got to
see looked fantastic, and it had some of the B&W art in it already. Good
stuff... :]

Well, anyways, that should answer your questions, and if not, I probably
can;t but will try.

Night all, time for me to sleep...

Bull
Message no. 2
From: Gurth <gurth@******.NL>
Subject: Re: Quick Eulogy for the passing of SR2
Date: Mon, 6 Jul 1998 11:37:16 +0100
Bull said on 4:17/6 Jul 98,...

> 3. Initiative gets a slight facelift. This is one I partlicularly like
> for various reasons <g>. Basically, the action order has been rearranged
> slightly, so that everyone gets to go early in the round, and the
> speedsters get all there extra actions later in the round.
> Basically, you roll initiative. Everyone goes once, starting with the
> highest initiative total. Once everyone has gone once, subtract 10 from
> your rolled initiative. Everyone that still has a positive number gets to
> go a second time, and so on. It works very well, and fixes the problem of
> speedsters vs. magic.

This sounds good, although I guess I'll have to wait and see the
actual rules because it sounds a bit fuzzy to me the way you
described it... Does everyone act at the same time or something?

> 4. Skills. Skills get a major overhaul as well.
>
> -- There are now only General and Concentrations of skills.
> -- Active Skills were broken up a lot, especially Firearms. Instead
> of a general firearms skill, you now need to learn Pistol, Rifle, SMG, etc.
> Then you can Concentrate in a certain type of pistol, or whatever.
> -- You get 10 more points per priority than you used to using the
> Priority System before. These are used for Active SKills only.
> -- You get your Intelligence x 5 in Knowledge Skill points to buy
> Knowledge Skills. These cover everything from theory skills to 20th
> century comic books.

Hmm... not sure about that one... I guess I'll have to wait and
see before making a decision whether or not I like it.

> -- Skills are all linked directly to an attribute now. Your
skills
> are also limited by your attribute ratings. They cost more to buy above
> your attribute (both at Char Gen and during game play with karma).
> -- The Skill Web is gone. Instead there is a list with all the
> skills grouped with similar skills. You can default to these skills or
> your attribute only. No more making Eti tests using your firearms :]

Argh! This doesn't sound so good at all... The skill web was IMHO
one of the best things in SR's whole skill system, because it
allowed anyone to apply knowledge to related areas. This new
system seems to limit it a lot more...

> 6. Trolls/Elves are now priority C on the race Priority. Dwarves/Orks are D.

Are you sure you didn't get the races mixed up? Elves and orks
are the common ones, trolls and dwarfs a lot less so.

> 8. NPCs have no threat pool any more. Instead they get normal dice pools.

I don't like that one... Makes for WAY too much bookkeeping, in
my experience (the first 6 months or so of playing SRII, I used
this system; I switched to TR because it's much easier to keep
tarck of).

> 11. There is a section that discusses how to set Target Numbers.

What do you mean, discussing how to set TNs? It's something
you can't really learn, but have to develop a feel for, isn't it? :)

> 13. MAGIC! Honestly, it didn;t look like any really drastic changes got
> made. Basically, they reworked the philosophy of how magic works, things
> like how Auras interacted and that really fixed a lot of the major problems.
>
> -- Spellcasting is now based on your Sorcery, NOT the force. Force
> still detrmines Opponents TN, the effect of the spell, etc. But you roll
> your Sorc now instead of the force ewhile casting. I like this since it no
> longer means that low level spells are more likely to fail :]

But it also means we'll probably see lots of magicians learning
only Force 1 spells for which there isn't a resistance test involved,
because they don't need the Force to generate successes any
longer.

> 14. Street Gear! Lots of detailed minor street gear. Stuff like tools
> and little stuff :] Woohoo!

I hope this means FASA will in future provide rules and stats for
not just the useful things, but also for (semi-)useless toys that
give color to a character...

> 18. List of where weapon mounts go on guns.

??? That's already there in SRI and SRII...

> 19. BTLs, SINs, and the various Credstick rules added.

Good!

> 23. Rules for Using Biotech with things like Medkits (Just how do these
> work? :))

See above :)

--
Gurth@******.nl - http://www.xs4all.nl/~gurth/index.html
Could you ever be alone?
-> NERPS Project Leader * ShadowRN GridSec * Unofficial Shadowrun Guru <-
-> The Plastic Warriors Page: http://www.xs4all.nl/~gurth/plastic.html <-
-> The New Character Mortuary: http://www.electricferret.com/mortuary/ <-

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Incubated into the First Church of the Sqooshy Ball, 21-05-1998
Message no. 3
From: Spike <u5a77@*****.CS.KEELE.AC.UK>
Subject: Re: Quick Eulogy for the passing of SR2
Date: Mon, 6 Jul 1998 13:57:24 +0100
And verily, did Bull hastily scribble thusly...
| Basically, you roll initiative. Everyone goes once, starting with the
|highest initiative total. Once everyone has gone once, subtract 10 from
|your rolled initiative. Everyone that still has a positive number gets to
|go a second time, and so on. It works very well, and fixes the problem of
|speedsters vs. magic.

Similar to RIFTS then.....


--
-----------------------------------------------------------------------------
|u5a77@*****.cs.keele.ac.uk| Windows95 (noun): 32 bit extensions and a |
| | graphical shell for a 16 bit patch to an 8 bit |
|Andrew Halliwell | operating system originally coded for a 4 bit |
|Principal Subjects in:- |microprocessor, written by a 2 bit company, that|
|Comp Sci & Electronics | can't stand 1 bit of competition. |
-----------------------------------------------------------------------------
|GCv3.1 GCS/EL>$ d---(dpu) s+/- a- C++ U N++ o+ K- w-- M+/++ PS+++ PE- Y t+ |
|5++ X+/++ R+ tv+ b+ D G e>PhD h/h+ !r! !y-|I can't say F**K either now! :( |
Message no. 4
From: Adam J <fro@***.AB.CA>
Subject: Re: Quick Eulogy for the passing of SR2
Date: Mon, 6 Jul 1998 07:53:41 -0600
At 11:37 06/07/98 +0100, you wrote:

>> 3. Initiative gets a slight facelift. This is one I partlicularly like
>
>This sounds good, although I guess I'll have to wait and see the
>actual rules because it sounds a bit fuzzy to me the way you
>described it... Does everyone act at the same time or something?

Since Mike talked about it publicly, I guess I can explain this now.. And,
if not, BULL DID IT!! ;)

Joe rolls 13 on his initiative, Sarah 17, Anti-Bob 6.

First Round:
Sarah: 17
Joe: 13
Anti-Bob: 6

Second Round
Sarah: 7
Joe: 3
Anti-Bob: None

Does that make more sense? It works really nicely :)

>> -- The Skill Web is gone. Instead there is a list with all the
>> skills grouped with similar skills. You can default to these skills or
>> your attribute only. No more making Eti tests using your firearms :]
>
>Argh! This doesn't sound so good at all... The skill web was IMHO
>one of the best things in SR's whole skill system, because it
>allowed anyone to apply knowledge to related areas. This new
>system seems to limit it a lot more...

I think this system will still allow for fair defaulting -- one other
change that I'm not sure if Bull mentioned, there are a lot more active
skills in general.

>> 6. Trolls/Elves are now priority C on the race Priority. Dwarves/Orks
are D.
>
>Are you sure you didn't get the races mixed up? Elves and orks
>are the common ones, trolls and dwarfs a lot less so.

He's right, IIRC..
They also got a few racial mods tweaking, but I can't remember exactly what.

>> 8. NPCs have no threat pool any more. Instead they get normal dice pools.
>
>I don't like that one... Makes for WAY too much bookkeeping, in
>my experience (the first 6 months or so of playing SRII, I used
>this system; I switched to TR because it's much easier to keep
>tarck of).

IMO if you don't want to keep track of everyones dice pools you could
probably use this formula to determine a quick and easy TR (All dice pools
added together) / Number of dice pools. It's off the top of my head, but
it should be decent.. :)

>> 11. There is a section that discusses how to set Target Numbers.
>
>What do you mean, discussing how to set TNs? It's something
>you can't really learn, but have to develop a feel for, isn't it? :)

I think so, but I also know alot of people who have a big problem with
this, so a little hand holding may be good.

>> 18. List of where weapon mounts go on guns.
>
>??? That's already there in SRI and SRII...

From talking to Bull on the phone last night, I believe he means they go
into more detail with the individual guns or type of guns. Also, they
added the recoil rating to the big list of guns in the back.

I seem to recall him mentioning something about a reloading chart, but then
he started blabbering about Ice Skating Ninjas. Mr Szeto, the looney bin
is third door to your right.. wait.. that's my room.. nevermind! :)

All in all, Bull's little pep talk has made me Really excited about SR3 >:)

-Adam
-
< http://www.interware.it/users/adamj / ICQ# 2350330 / fro@***.ab.ca >
< ShadowRN Assistant Fearless Leader / TSA Co-Admin / TSS Productions >
< FreeRPG & Shadowrun Webring Admin / The Shadowrun Supplemental >
< The Entity responsible for the First Church of the Sqooshy Ball >
Message no. 5
From: MC23 <mc23@**********.COM>
Subject: Re: Quick Eulogy for the passing of SR2
Date: Mon, 6 Jul 1998 10:30:05 -0400
Once upon a time, Bull wrote;

>The details, in no particular order:
>
>4. Skills. Skills get a major overhaul as well.
>
> -- Skills are all linked directly to an attribute now. Your skills
>are also limited by your attribute ratings. They cost more to buy above
>your attribute (both at Char Gen and during game play with karma).

Great, even more reasons to max Attributes at CharGen. B>[#

> -- The Skill Web is gone. Instead there is a list with all the
>skills grouped with similar skills. You can default to these skills or
>your attribute only. No more making Eti tests using your firearms :]

No tears here.

>6. Trolls/Elves are now priority C on the race Priority. Dwarves/Orks
>are D.

I hope that's not the right breakdown.

>9. They modified the way you get Karma Pool. It's now 1 for every 20
>instead of 1 for 10.

I wonder if the math example is right with this one (unlike the
companion). I'd rather see the death of Karma Pool.
>
>10. There will be rules for ways to burn Karma.

Burn Baby, BURN!! Ha-ha!!! B>]#

>11. There is a section that discusses how to set Target Numbers.

Bravo. SR2 does in like one or two sentences.
>
>12. There are several pages that explains exactly what the skill ratings
>mean. They really emphasise the fact that 5-6 is a VERY high rating for
>the skill, not "average". :]

Very High? very skilled perhaps. Did he mention any changes of
spending Karma or how to award Karma.

>16. Recoil Compensation has been added to the weapons lists, so that you
>know about any built in Recoil Comp.

Woo-Hoo!

>23. Rules for Using Biotech with things like Medkits (Just how do these
>work? :))

I hope they have a better magic/first aid combo rules.
>
>24. Manifestation gets renamed for Mages and Spirits. Don;t rememebr
>which is which, but one gets called Materialization instead of
>Manifestation, and the other remains Manifestation. This distinguishes
>between what Astral mages do to get seen, and what Spirits do to move to
>the physical realm.

If it's reversed then Manifestation would be the appearance on the
mundane plane and Materialization is the physical form on the mundane
plane.

>25. Alphaware is in and is now basic gear. Price dropped to double
>regular cyber. This means players now get to diecided money vs essence
>when buying basic cyber.

I guess it was time.

>26. Cyberlimb updates. Two different types, Synthetic limbs vs. Obvious.
>Obvious are the big metal clunky kind, but they're cheaper and easier to
>add mods. Synth are disguised, cost more, and are harder to add things.

Nice add. I always went for concealed before becuase I never could
see a reason to show your chrome. Very uncyberpunk I know.

>29. Astral perception gets some modifiers, things like light, etc.

What?

>30. Overall, it looks to be a good book. The Manuscript that we got to
>see looked fantastic, and it had some of the B&W art in it already. Good
>stuff... :]

You got manuscript?!? You BASTARD!!!

<><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><>

Ancient cultures believed that names held great power, personal names
more so and they were guarded very closely. To protect themselves, they
answered to another name, because if another discovered their real name,
it could be used against them.
History repeats itself.
Welcome to the Digital Age.
I am MC23
Message no. 6
From: Lehlan Decker <decker@****.FSU.EDU>
Subject: Re: Quick Eulogy for the passing of SR2
Date: Mon, 6 Jul 1998 10:47:59 -0500
>
> Once upon a time, Bull wrote;
>

>
> > -- The Skill Web is gone. Instead there is a list with all the
> >skills grouped with similar skills. You can default to these skills or
> >your attribute only. No more making Eti tests using your firearms :]
>
> No tears here.
>
Hey..Etiquette...Interogation, a gun can mean a lot of things.
Just because my PC doesn't know which fork to use, doesn't mean he
doesn't know how to negotiate using his predator. :)


>
> >9. They modified the way you get Karma Pool. It's now 1 for every 20
> >instead of 1 for 10.
>
> I wonder if the math example is right with this one (unlike the
> companion). I'd rather see the death of Karma Pool.
> >
As it is in SR2 yes. I still like SR1's karma style. Guess I'm
nostalgic, but thats what house rules are for. :)

<SNIP>
> >

>
> >25. Alphaware is in and is now basic gear. Price dropped to double
> >regular cyber. This means players now get to diecided money vs essence
> >when buying basic cyber.
>
> I guess it was time.
>
Well lets see, SSC and Shadowtech came along in what 2051 and 2052. Its
been 8 years, plenty of time for mass production and competition to sort
things out.

<SNIP>
>
> >30. Overall, it looks to be a good book. The Manuscript that we got to
> >see looked fantastic, and it had some of the B&W art in it already. Good
> >stuff... :]
>
> You got manuscript?!? You BASTARD!!!
>
Hmm..I wonder if we could convince him to use a scanner.....nah DLOH probably
wouldn't go for that. :(
Sigh...soon I will have more disposable income for trips to cons...BAHAHAHAH.

--
--------------------------------------------------------------------
Lehlan Decker (850)644-4534 Systems Development
decker@****.fsu.edu http://www.scri.fsu.edu/~decker
--------------------------------------------------------------------
Morality is moral only when it is voluntary.
Message no. 7
From: David Buehrer <dbuehrer@******.CARL.ORG>
Subject: Re: Quick Eulogy for the passing of SR2
Date: Mon, 6 Jul 1998 08:51:18 -0600
Adam J wrote:
/
/ >> 8. NPCs have no threat pool any more. Instead they get normal dice pools.
/ >
/ >I don't like that one... Makes for WAY too much bookkeeping, in
/ >my experience (the first 6 months or so of playing SRII, I used
/ >this system; I switched to TR because it's much easier to keep
/ >tarck of).
/
/ IMO if you don't want to keep track of everyones dice pools you could
/ probably use this formula to determine a quick and easy TR (All dice pools
/ added together) / Number of dice pools. It's off the top of my head, but
/ it should be decent.. :)

Aaarrrgg!

I wanted to be the first one to make a house rule for SR3!

<grump>

;)

-David
--
"If I told you, then I'd have to pull a Shadowrun against you. Sorry."
--
email: dbuehrer@******.carl.org
http://www.geocities.com/TimesSquare/1068/homepage.htm
Message no. 8
From: David Buehrer <dbuehrer@******.CARL.ORG>
Subject: Re: Quick Eulogy for the passing of SR2
Date: Mon, 6 Jul 1998 08:53:11 -0600
Gurth wrote:
/
/ Bull said on 4:17/6 Jul 98,...
/
/ > 13. MAGIC! Honestly, it didn;t look like any really drastic changes got
/ > made. Basically, they reworked the philosophy of how magic works, things
/ > like how Auras interacted and that really fixed a lot of the major problems.
/ >
/ > -- Spellcasting is now based on your Sorcery, NOT the force. Force
/ > still detrmines Opponents TN, the effect of the spell, etc. But you roll
/ > your Sorc now instead of the force ewhile casting. I like this since it no
/ > longer means that low level spells are more likely to fail :]
/
/ But it also means we'll probably see lots of magicians learning
/ only Force 1 spells for which there isn't a resistance test involved,
/ because they don't need the Force to generate successes any
/ longer.

Don't worry, Steve has addressed that issue quite well.

-David
--
"If I told you, then I'd have to pull a Shadowrun against you. Sorry."
--
email: dbuehrer@******.carl.org
http://www.geocities.com/TimesSquare/1068/homepage.htm
Message no. 9
From: Paul Gettle <RunnerPaul@*****.COM>
Subject: Re: Quick Eulogy for the passing of SR2
Date: Mon, 6 Jul 1998 10:53:14 -0400
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At 11:37 AM 7/6/98 +0100, Gurth wrote:
>
>> 18. List of where weapon mounts go on guns.
>
>??? That's already there in SRI and SRII...

If this is what I think it is, it's similar to what we started seeing
as of FoF.

That is, each weapon might or might not be able to take a mounted
accessory at a given location.
You know, all those weapon descriptions that read "This weapon accepts
standard top-mounted and barrel-monted accessories, but cannot accept
under-barel accesories."

Execpt this will be in convient list format. (I really like this,
since it adds variety to the arsenal)

Of course, this is the wildest of wild speculation, as I'm about as
out of the SR3 loop as one can get.

For those in the know, am I even close?

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--
-- Paul Gettle (RunnerPaul@*****.com)
PGP Fingerprint, Key ID:0x48F3AACD (RSA 1024, created 98/06/26)
C260 94B3 6722 6A25 63F8 0690 9EA2 3344

You dare defy my whims?!?
I am the game master; you are my pawns!
I created the world you see before you!
I control your fate!"
-- Dexter, Dexter's Laboratory.
Message no. 10
From: Lehlan Decker <decker@****.FSU.EDU>
Subject: Re: Quick Eulogy for the passing of SR2
Date: Mon, 6 Jul 1998 10:55:31 -0500
>
> Gurth wrote:
> /
> / Bull said on 4:17/6 Jul 98,...
> /
> / > 13. MAGIC! Honestly, it didn;t look like any really drastic changes got
> / > made. Basically, they reworked the philosophy of how magic works, things
> / > like how Auras interacted and that really fixed a lot of the major problems.
> / >
> / > -- Spellcasting is now based on your Sorcery, NOT the force. Force
> / > still detrmines Opponents TN, the effect of the spell, etc. But you roll
> / > your Sorc now instead of the force ewhile casting. I like this since it no
> / > longer means that low level spells are more likely to fail :]
> /
> / But it also means we'll probably see lots of magicians learning
> / only Force 1 spells for which there isn't a resistance test involved,
> / because they don't need the Force to generate successes any
> / longer.
>
> Don't worry, Steve has addressed that issue quite well.
>
Actually its kinda funny, but since Steve is on the list, and interacts
with quite a few of us, I feel pretty comfortable that the magic system
will be well thought out, and will "fix" most of our complaints over the
years. After seeing Bull's post, I'm slightly more worried about the
skill web and initiative etc, but hey you can't please everyone.
Hmm...what are we down too..two monthes and counting. :) SR3 here we come.

--
--------------------------------------------------------------------
Lehlan Decker (850)644-4534 Systems Development
decker@****.fsu.edu http://www.scri.fsu.edu/~decker
--------------------------------------------------------------------
Morality is moral only when it is voluntary.
Message no. 11
From: Adam J <fro@***.AB.CA>
Subject: Re: Quick Eulogy for the passing of SR2
Date: Mon, 6 Jul 1998 09:08:09 -0600
At 10:47 06/07/98 -0500, MC32 and Lehlan wrote:

>> You got manuscript?!? You BASTARD!!!

<rest snipped>

Bull doesn't -- he just read through Mikes.

-Adam J
-
< http://www.interware.it/users/adamj / ICQ# 2350330 / fro@***.ab.ca >
< ShadowRN Assistant Fearless Leader / TSA Co-Admin / TSS Productions >
< FreeRPG & Shadowrun Webring Admin / The Shadowrun Supplemental >
< The Entity responsible for the First Church of the Sqooshy Ball >
Message no. 12
From: The Bookworm <Thomas.M.Price@*******.EDU>
Subject: Re: Quick Eulogy for the passing of SR2
Date: Mon, 6 Jul 1998 10:04:48 -0500
On Mon, 6 Jul 1998, David Buehrer wrote:

> Adam J wrote:
> / IMO if you don't want to keep track of everyones dice pools you could
> / probably use this formula to determine a quick and easy TR (All dice pools
> / added together) / Number of dice pools. It's off the top of my head, but
> / it should be decent.. :)
> Aaarrrgg!
> I wanted to be the first one to make a house rule for SR3!
> <grump>
> ;)
> -David

Hmmm. What does it say about us when even though the games isnt even
finished yet, much less avalible for sale, and we are already making house
rules for it. :)

Thomas Price
aka The Bookworm
thomas.m.price@*******.edu
tmprice@***********.com
Message no. 13
From: John E Pederson <pedersje@******.ROSE-HULMAN.EDU>
Subject: Re: Quick Eulogy for the passing of SR2
Date: Mon, 6 Jul 1998 10:18:32 -0500
Snippage without warning or pattern.

Bull wrote:
>
> Well, maybe not :]
>
> Ok, anyways, despite the enormously long weekend, I've decided to plod
> along and report all of this while it's fresh in my mind. Who knows how
> I'll feel tomorrow after a good nights sleep :]

Sleep? Is that the thing where you lie down and don't get up for a while?

> Anyways, on with the show. This is what FASAMike announced at Origins
> fduring the seminars about SR3. He really went into detail about
> everything, so...
>
> The details, in no particular order:
>
> 1. One of the best and biggest additions isn't a change so much as
> something that was very curiously missing from the first two editions of
> the game: A detailed explanation of just what shadowrunning was, and who
> shadowrunners were. And there is a new piece of fiction in this area as well.

'Bout bleedin' time.

> 2. Examples. LOTS of examples. This is one area of the book that really
> makes it "user friendly". They used examples quite frequently.

Ooo. That by itself ought to solve a lot of arguments:)

> 3. Initiative gets a slight facelift. This is one I partlicularly like
> for various reasons <g>. Basically, the action order has been rearranged
> slightly, so that everyone gets to go early in the round, and the
> speedsters get all there extra actions later in the round.

Hmmm. Not so sure what to think about this. I don't see this as being a terribly
large improvement over the previous system, to be honest.

> 4. Skills. Skills get a major overhaul as well.
> Then you can Concentrate in a certain type of pistol, or whatever.
> -- You get 10 more points per priority than you used to using the
> Priority System before. These are used for Active SKills only.

Sounds they'd about have to, since a lot of characters before could get a *lot*
more out of a given skill. Not theat I'm really complaining though.

> -- You get your Intelligence x 5 in Knowledge Skill points to buy
> Knowledge Skills. These cover everything from theory skills to 20th
> century comic books.

Awesome. I rather like this idea (especially since these are basically freebie
points to spend on 'worthless' skills:)

> -- Skills are all linked directly to an attribute now.
> -- The Skill Web is gone. Instead there is a list with all the
> skills grouped with similar skills. You can default to these skills or
> your attribute only. No more making Eti tests using your firearms :]

Not sure whether I like this either. I'll reserve judgment 'till the 7th,
though.

> 5. Phys ADs are now known as simply Adepts. All the other magical adepts
> are now known as Aspected Magicians.

:P Like we won't still use the old names:)

> 6. Trolls/Elves are now priority C on the race Priority. Dwarves/Orks are D.

House rule #1... Can't say I like this one at all. Seems like a bad idea to me.
And like it's maybe a tad off in some respects.

> 7. Etiquette is now chosen like every other skill. You can buy general
> Eti, or you can specialize.

Well, that makes that much less odd:)

> 8. NPCs have no threat pool any more. Instead they get normal dice pools.

Err... House rule #2... I'll have to go with Gurth on this one. Threat Rating is
infinitely easier than trying to keep track of dice pools...

> 9. They modified the way you get Karma Pool. It's now 1 for every 20
> instead of 1 for 10.

Doesn't make any difference to me. I think I'm eliminating Karma pool in favor
of some variant of 1st ed. Karma rules if/when I GM next anyway.

> 13. MAGIC! Honestly, it didn;t look like any really drastic changes got
> made. Basically, they reworked the philosophy of how magic works, things
> like how Auras interacted and that really fixed a lot of the major problems.

Good. I'm sick of seeing that thread:)

> -- Spellcasting is now based on your Sorcery, NOT the force. Force
> still detrmines Opponents TN, the effect of the spell, etc. But you roll
> your Sorc now instead of the force ewhile casting. I like this since it no
> longer means that low level spells are more likely to fail :]

Well, I think I'll stick with the older rules. But that's just me. Honestly,
this seems a bit like a throwback to the first edition Sorcery rules. But only a
bit.

> 14. Street Gear! Lots of detailed minor street gear. Stuff like tools
> and little stuff :] Woohoo!
> 15. Legality Ratings added
> 16. Recoil Compensation has been added to the weapons lists, so that you
> know about any built in Recoil Comp.

Very awesome, on all three counts.

> 17. LMGs got moved to Heavy Weapons (The newer version of personal gunnery
> skill. Gunnery now covers Vehicle Weapons).

IMHO, this is where LMGs should probably have been to begin with.

> 19. BTLs, SINs, and the various Credstick rules added.

Good. They should've been there in the first place.

> 24. Manifestation gets renamed for Mages and Spirits. Don;t rememebr
> which is which, but one gets called Materialization instead of
> Manifestation, and the other remains Manifestation. This distinguishes
> between what Astral mages do to get seen, and what Spirits do to move to
> the physical realm.

Funny, seems like I remember Steve asking us about that one...

> 30. Overall, it looks to be a good book. The Manuscript that we got to
> see looked fantastic, and it had some of the B&W art in it already. Good
> stuff... :]

Lucky bastard:) I'm jealous, I don't even get a chance at this stuff until
August, and even then I miss the first two days:/

> Night all, time for me to sleep...

Hope you slept better than I did (one problem with caffeine...)

> Bull

--
John Pederson otherwise known as Lyle Canthros, shapeshifter-mage
----------------------------------------------------------------------
"Everyone who is seriously involved in the pursuit of science becomes
convinced that a spirit is manifest in the laws of the universe -- a
spirit vastly superior to that of man, and one in the face of which we
with our modest powers must feel humble."
--Albert Einstein
lobo1@****.com canthros1@***.com pedersje@******.rose-hulman.edu
http://www.geocities.com/Area51/Lair/4864 ICQ UIN 3190186
"I'm not fifty!" "SPOONMAN!!!" Number Two -- with a bullet!
Message no. 14
From: Mike Hartmann <hartmann@***********.M.EUNET.DE>
Subject: Re: Quick Eulogy for the passing of SR2
Date: Mon, 6 Jul 1998 17:49:40 +0200
Am 6 Jul 98, um 10:18 hat John E Pederson geschrieben:

> > Ok, anyways, despite the enormously long weekend, I've decided to plod
> > along and report all of this while it's fresh in my mind. Who knows how
> > I'll feel tomorrow after a good nights sleep :]
>
> Sleep? Is that the thing where you lie down and don't get up for a while?

Oh yeah, I have heard rumours about that kind of activity. Must be
illegal or something like that...

> > 2. Examples. LOTS of examples. This is one area of the book that really
> > makes it "user friendly". They used examples quite frequently.
>
> Ooo. That by itself ought to solve a lot of arguments:)

Hopefully they have at least two examples for everything. One
about the basic rule and the others for the special rules.

> > 3. Initiative gets a slight facelift. This is one I partlicularly like
> > for various reasons <g>. Basically, the action order has been rearranged
> > slightly, so that everyone gets to go early in the round, and the
> > speedsters get all there extra actions later in the round.
>
> Hmmm. Not so sure what to think about this. I don't see this as being a terribly
> large improvement over the previous system, to be honest.

Same here. With the old system it looked like this (initiative
converted to real-time):
"Sammy acts, Sammy acts, Sammy acts, Mage acts (after two
seconds of just standing around), Sammy acts"
Now it is:
"Sammy acts, Mage acts, Sammy, Sammy, Sammy" (Here the
mage acts and then stands around two seconds like frozen) at
least it somewhat stops sammies thinking like this: "Well, I have at
least 4 actions before the guards, so I can easily nail them before
they get to act."

> > 30. Overall, it looks to be a good book. The Manuscript that we got to
> > see looked fantastic, and it had some of the B&W art in it already. Good
> > stuff... :]
>
> Lucky bastard:) I'm jealous, I don't even get a chance at this stuff until
> August, and even then I miss the first two days:/


Lucky bastard :-) I can't even go there and get me a book, so I'll
have to wait till it makes its way to germany (which will most likely
not be before december or so)

bye Mike


---
Download the current version of SRCG at
www.fortunecity.com/tinpan/newreed/15/
Message no. 15
From: Tim Kerby <drekhead@***.NET>
Subject: Re: Quick Eulogy for the passing of SR2
Date: Mon, 6 Jul 1998 11:58:47 -0400
Guess I'll throw my two nuyen into the fray.

On 6 Jul 98, at 4:17, Bull wrote:

> 1. One of the best and biggest additions isn't a change so much as
> something that was very curiously missing from the first two editions of
> the game: A detailed explanation of just what shadowrunning was, and who
> shadowrunners were. And there is a new piece of fiction in this area as
> well.

I like this. Good background for newer players about what their role
is all about.

> 2. Examples. LOTS of examples. This is one area of the book that really
> makes it "user friendly". They used examples quite frequently.

Again, examples are great for new players, and for us old timers too.

> 3. Initiative gets a slight facelift. This is one I partlicularly like
> for various reasons <g>. Basically, the action order has been rearranged
> slightly, so that everyone gets to go early in the round, and the
> speedsters get all there extra actions later in the round.

I like the sound of this. It gives everyone a fair shake, and no more
sitting around while the sammies clean up. Yea, that will still
happen, but at least the slow characters get to make an impression
first.

> 4. Skills. Skills get a major overhaul as well.

Good.

> -- You get 10 more points per priority than you used to using the
> Priority System before. These are used for Active SKills only.

I like this. My players always groaned about having to spend Skill
points on "useless" skills that I made them take to flesh out their
backgrounds.

> -- You get your Intelligence x 5 in Knowledge Skill points to
> buy Knowledge Skills. These cover everything from theory skills to 20th
> century comic books.

Great idea. Love it, for the same reason stated above. I think this
will be a tremendous aid to help players roleplay.

> -- Skills are all linked directly to an attribute now. Your
> skills are also limited by your attribute ratings. They cost more to buy
> above your attribute (both at Char Gen and during game play with karma).

This I'm leary of. I'll have to wait and see how it pans out, but
other games I've played that did this always seemed to result in the
characters maxing out their attribute scores.

> -- The Skill Web is gone. Instead there is a list with all the
> skills grouped with similar skills. You can default to these skills or
> your attribute only. No more making Eti tests using your firearms :]

I like the Skill Web, especially the new one in the Companion. I'll
leave the verdict out on this one.

> 5. Phys ADs are now known as simply Adepts. All the other magical adepts
> are now known as Aspected Magicians.

Aspected? I don't like that at all. And they'll always be physads to
me. :)

> 6. Trolls/Elves are now priority C on the race Priority. Dwarves/Orks
> are D.

That seems strange to me. I use the point system, so I am curious how
this will pan out in that regard. (Come to think of it, I am curious
how the new skill point distribution will pan out in the point system
as well).

Question, Bull. Does SR3 cover the point system at all? What about
Edges/Flaws?

> 8. NPCs have no threat pool any more. Instead they get normal dice
> pools.

I think I agree with the others. I will be using a house rule here.
Too much bookeeping otherwise.

> 9. They modified the way you get Karma Pool. It's now 1 for every 20
> instead of 1 for 10.

I will still use my modified Karma rules from SR1.

> 10. There will be rules for ways to burn Karma.

Gotta' love that. :)

> 11. There is a section that discusses how to set Target Numbers.

Helpful for new GM's.

> 12. There are several pages that explains exactly what the skill ratings
> mean. They really emphasise the fact that 5-6 is a VERY high rating for
> the skill, not "average". :]

Good. I have one player in particular that I am sick of arguing with
over this topic.

> 13. MAGIC! Honestly, it didn;t look like any really drastic changes got
> made. Basically, they reworked the philosophy of how magic works, things
> like how Auras interacted and that really fixed a lot of the major
> problems.

Now what are we going to talk about? :)

> -- Spellcasting is now based on your Sorcery, NOT the force. Force
> still detrmines Opponents TN, the effect of the spell, etc. But you roll
> your Sorc now instead of the force ewhile casting. I like this since it
> no longer means that low level spells are more likely to fail :]

But like everyone else has said, I think it will be a lot more low
level spells being learned. Which may not necessarily be a bad thing.
Mages can be more diverse in their spell selections.

> - Magic Pool has been replaced by Spell Pool. This is now calulated
> by adding Int, Will, and Magic, divided by 2 or 3 (I think), instead of
> being directly related to the sorcery skill.

Again, sounds like a reason for characters to max attributes.

> -- Spell Locks no longer exist. Instead you have Reuseable Spell
> Foci (I think theya re called) that you bond, then you have to cast a
> spell into it every time you activate it, and it works at the successes of
> that casting. The real difference ebtween this and the locks (other than
> the recastings) is that this doesn;t mystically disappear when activated,
> and can easily be taken away or stolen.

I like the sound of that. But one question;
Can you ground through them? :) <ducks and runs for cover>

> 14. Street Gear! Lots of detailed minor street gear. Stuff like tools
> and little stuff :] Woohoo!
> 15. Legality Ratings added
> 16. Recoil Compensation has been added to the weapons lists, so that you
> know about any built in Recoil Comp.
> 17. LMGs got moved to Heavy Weapons (The newer version of personal
> gunnery skill. Gunnery now covers Vehicle Weapons).
> 18. List of where weapon mounts go on guns.

All good. I can't wait to see the new equipment charts. Players love
when they can buy all kinds of shit for their characters.

> 19. BTLs, SINs, and the various Credstick rules added.

About time.

> 20. Rules for Spurs, and for using two spurs at once.
> 21. Boosted Reflexes and Bonelacing added.
> 22. Most of SSC stuff is added to basic gear lists.
> 23. Rules for Using Biotech with things like Medkits (Just how do these
> work? :))

This sounds just like a clarification and compilation of rules now
scattered in different source books. I hope there is a lot of that,
in other areas as well.

> 24. Manifestation gets renamed for Mages and Spirits. Don;t rememebr
> which is which, but one gets called Materialization instead of
> Manifestation, and the other remains Manifestation. This distinguishes
> between what Astral mages do to get seen, and what Spirits do to move to
> the physical realm.

We covered that on the list, I think. Glad to hear it was included.
Made a lot of sense.

> 27. Working with the above are guidelines for obvious cyber in
> public, and how people react (Not Cyberpsychosis, I think, but more a
> social reaction).
> This also has a section for wearing armor in public.

I can't wait to see an "official" line on this. I'm been using house
rules on these topics in my game.

> 30. Overall, it looks to be a good book. The Manuscript that we got to
> see looked fantastic, and it had some of the B&W art in it already. Good
> stuff... :]

I can't wait to see it! Thanks Bull.

--

=================================================================
- Tim Kerby - drekhead@***.net - ICQ-UIN 2883757 -
-----------------------------------------------------------------
"Reality is the only obstacle to happiness." - Unknown
Message no. 16
From: Alfredo B Alves <dghost@****.COM>
Subject: Re: Quick Eulogy for the passing of SR2
Date: Tue, 16 Jun 1998 11:31:06 -0500
On Mon, 6 Jul 1998 11:37:16 +0100 Gurth <gurth@******.NL> writes:
>Bull said on 4:17/6 Jul 98,...
<SNIP Intiative since Adam J. clarified it :)>

I think I'll start using this now :)

>> 4. Skills. Skills get a major overhaul as well.
>>
>> -- There are now only General and Concentrations of skills.
>> -- Active Skills were broken up a lot, especially Firearms.
Instead
>> of a general firearms skill, you now need to learn Pistol, Rifle, SMG,
etc.
>> Then you can Concentrate in a certain type of pistol, or whatever.
>> -- You get 10 more points per priority than you used to using
the
>> Priority System before. These are used for Active SKills only.
>> -- You get your Intelligence x 5 in Knowledge Skill points to
buy
>> Knowledge Skills. These cover everything from theory skills to 20th
>> century comic books.

>Hmm... not sure about that one... I guess I'll have to wait and
>see before making a decision whether or not I like it.

Sounds good to me but looks like the SRCo will have to be updated ... I
wonder if an update will be in the book? (just switching to a 110 build
point standard ought to fix it since 10 skill points = 10 build points).
I hope they have new skills too. Like basket weaving :)

>> -- Skills are all linked directly to an attribute now. Your
skills
>> are also limited by your attribute ratings. They cost more to buy
above
>> your attribute (both at Char Gen and during game play with karma).
>> -- The Skill Web is gone. Instead there is a list with all the
>> skills grouped with similar skills. You can default to these skills
or
>> your attribute only. No more making Eti tests using your firearms :]

>Argh! This doesn't sound so good at all... The skill web was IMHO
>one of the best things in SR's whole skill system, because it
>allowed anyone to apply knowledge to related areas. This new
>system seems to limit it a lot more...

That depends on how the skills are "linked directly to an attribute" ...
If it's like Starwars ... :/ On the other hand, if it does limit
defaulting, it'll persuade more people to get the actual skill rather
than defaulting ... :)

<SNIP>
>> 13. MAGIC! Honestly, it didn;t look like any really drastic changes
got
>> made. Basically, they reworked the philosophy of how magic works,
things
>> like how Auras interacted and that really fixed a lot of the major
problems.
>>
>> -- Spellcasting is now based on your Sorcery, NOT the force.
Force
>> still detrmines Opponents TN, the effect of the spell, etc. But you
roll
>> your Sorc now instead of the force ewhile casting. I like this since
it no
>> longer means that low level spells are more likely to fail :]

>But it also means we'll probably see lots of magicians learning
>only Force 1 spells for which there isn't a resistance test involved,
>because they don't need the Force to generate successes any
>longer.

I thought there was alot of that now anyway ... like Force 1 or 2
Increase Attribute/Intiative spells adding in Magic Pool to compensate
... Isn't Quickening limited by the Force of the spell? IIRC, you can
only spend up to double the force of the spell so, unless it's changed in
3rd Ed, low Force spells are at a disadvantage for Quickenings ...

>> 14. Street Gear! Lots of detailed minor street gear. Stuff like
tools
>> and little stuff :] Woohoo!

>I hope this means FASA will in future provide rules and stats for
>not just the useful things, but also for (semi-)useless toys that
>give color to a character...

That's one of the things I loved about NAGRL, those lovely toys ... but
they were still semi-runner oriented ... However, I think that FASA might
have left out the random trinkets because the nuyen is approximately
equal to the current US dollar and they hoped you could fill in at home.
Though, if so, they should have made such a mention in the books ... :)

>> 18. List of where weapon mounts go on guns.

>??? That's already there in SRI and SRII...

I thought he meant like how do you attach a pistol to a pintle mount ...

<SNIP>

>--
>Gurth@******.nl -
<SNIP Sig>

I think I'm going to use the new magic rules in my home game as well :)

_____________________________________________________________________
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Message no. 17
From: Paul Gettle <RunnerPaul@*****.COM>
Subject: Re: Quick Eulogy for the passing of SR2
Date: Mon, 6 Jul 1998 13:16:55 -0400
-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----

At 11:58 AM 7/6/98 -0400, Tim wrote:
>> 3. Initiative gets a slight facelift. This is one I partlicularly
like
>> for various reasons <g>. Basically, the action order has been
rearranged
>> slightly, so that everyone gets to go early in the round, and the
>> speedsters get all there extra actions later in the round.
>
>I like the sound of this. It gives everyone a fair shake, and no more
>sitting around while the sammies clean up. Yea, that will still
>happen, but at least the slow characters get to make an impression
>first.

That would all depend on how delaying actions across the end of the
turn works in the new system, though, I suspect. After all, the slow
characters might still end up waiting around at the begining of the
new turn while the few speed demons take care of the actions they've
been delaying since the end of the previous turn.

I know if I were playing a speed demon, I'd take full advantage of
getting one of the last actions in the turn, so I could be ready and
waiting for whatever came down on the next turn. If they keep the same
system of allowing a delayer to intervene after someone else's action
is declared, and act first, then this would just 'feel' right to me.
Being able to intervene means getting your shot off first, or being
able to dodge out of the way just when you see the gunbarrel swinging
in your direction, tricks that those who are wired for speed just
might be able to pull off.

Of course, this still leads to frustration for the normals who only
get an action or two per turn, but that's always been the case, with
no simple solutions for it.


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--
-- Paul Gettle (RunnerPaul@*****.com)
PGP Fingerprint, Key ID:0x48F3AACD (RSA 1024, created 98/06/26)
C260 94B3 6722 6A25 63F8 0690 9EA2 3344

You dare defy my whims?!?
I am the game master; you are my pawns!
I created the world you see before you!
I control your fate!"
-- Dexter, Dexter's Laboratory.
Message no. 18
From: K is the Symbol <Ereskanti@***.COM>
Subject: Re: Quick Eulogy for the passing of SR2
Date: Mon, 6 Jul 1998 13:52:30 EDT
In a message dated 7/6/98 3:10:59 AM US Eastern Standard Time, chaos@*****.COM
writes:

> Well, maybe not :]

Oh yeah, tease us some more why don't ya :)

> Anyways, on with the show. This is what FASAMike announced at Origins
> fduring the seminars about SR3. He really went into detail about
> everything, so...
> The details, in no particular order:
>
> 1. One of the best and biggest additions isn't a change so much as
> something that was very curiously missing from the first two editions of
> the game: A detailed explanation of just what shadowrunning was, and who
> shadowrunners were. And there is a new piece of fiction in this area as
> well.

Okay, I am not entirely certain this would make any huge differences but okay.

> 2. Examples. LOTS of examples. This is one area of the book that really
> makes it "user friendly". They used examples quite frequently.

Oh boy, this could get confusing I think. Don't get me wrong, but examples
are great and -DO- help incredibly. BUT people are always gonna get the wrong
impressions.

> 3. Initiative gets a slight facelift. This is one I partlicularly like
> for various reasons <g>. Basically, the action order has been rearranged
> slightly, so that everyone gets to go early in the round, and the
> speedsters get all there extra actions later in the round.
> Basically, you roll initiative. Everyone goes once, starting with the
> highest initiative total. Once everyone has gone once, subtract 10 from
> your rolled initiative. Everyone that still has a positive number gets to
> go a second time, and so on. It works very well, and fixes the problem of
> speedsters vs. magic.

Didn't I hear about this one at some point?

> 4. Skills. Skills get a major overhaul as well.

Oh goodie ;)

> -- There are now only General and Concentrations of skills.
> -- Active Skills were broken up a lot, especially Firearms. Instead
> of a general firearms skill, you now need to learn Pistol, Rifle, SMG, etc.
> Then you can Concentrate in a certain type of pistol, or whatever.
> -- You get 10 more points per priority than you used to using the
> Priority System before. These are used for Active SKills only.
> -- You get your Intelligence x 5 in Knowledge Skill points to buy
> Knowledge Skills. These cover everything from theory skills to 20th
> century comic books.
> -- Skills are all linked directly to an attribute now. Your skills
> are also limited by your attribute ratings. They cost more to buy above
> your attribute (both at Char Gen and during game play with karma).
> -- The Skill Web is gone. Instead there is a list with all the
> skills grouped with similar skills. You can default to these skills or
> your attribute only. No more making Eti tests using your firearms :]

Ya know, my initial impression was "that sucks", but now that I think about
it, this makes a bundle of sense if you've explained it well enough (which I'm
sure your sleep addled mind and body have coordinated nicely to do :P)

> 5. Phys ADs are now known as simply Adepts. All the other magical adepts
> are now known as Aspected Magicians.

Saw this coming from a light years' distance.

> 6. Trolls/Elves are now priority C on the race Priority. Dwarves/Orks are
> D.

Oh yeah, this makes sense. Really. Given the basis of attribute benefits and
the like.

> 7. Etiquette is now chosen like every other skill. You can buy general
> Eti, or you can specialize.

This will make things easier.

> 8. NPCs have no threat pool any more. Instead they get normal dice pools.

Oh beg, grovel, let us all hope and pray that Bug Spirits are just a -bit-
slower then :)

> 9. They modified the way you get Karma Pool. It's now 1 for every 20
> instead of 1 for 10.

Okay, this isn't required. Not at all IMO. If you wanted this, you could
have opted for the SRComp's system and taken the flaw that does this anyway.
Why on earth did they do this in this fashion anyway?

> 10. There will be rules for ways to burn Karma.

Weren't there already???

> 11. There is a section that discusses how to set Target Numbers.

That might be helpful, not necessary, but helpful.

> 12. There are several pages that explains exactly what the skill ratings
> mean. They really emphasise the fact that 5-6 is a VERY high rating for
> the skill, not "average". :]

There were considered high before, 2-3 were the average before. Or are they
just trying to re-emphasize this?

> 13. MAGIC! Honestly, it didn;t look like any really drastic changes got
> made. Basically, they reworked the philosophy of how magic works, things
> like how Auras interacted and that really fixed a lot of the major
problems.

Not yet anyway :)

> -- Spellcasting is now based on your Sorcery, NOT the force. Force
> still detrmines Opponents TN, the effect of the spell, etc. But you roll
> your Sorc now instead of the force ewhile casting. I like this since it no
> longer means that low level spells are more likely to fail :]

Yep, saw this coming from a light years distance too. Basically take a look
at VR2 and you begin to an idea (not a clear one, but one in any case).

> -- Magic Pool has been replaced by Spell Pool. This is now calulated
> by adding Int, Will, and Magic, divided by 2 or 3 (I think), instead of
> being directly related to the sorcery skill.

Didn't I mention this to someone a while ago? I'm sure we did. BUT it will
make things a bit easier to clarify. I can also see some confusion where
Power Foci and the like are going to be compared.

> -- Spell Locks no longer exist. Instead you have Reuseable Spell
> Foci (I think theya re called) that you bond, then you have to cast a spell
> into it every time you activate it, and it works at the successes of that
> casting. The real difference ebtween this and the locks (other than the
> recastings) is that this doesn;t mystically disappear when activated, and
> can easily be taken away or stolen.

Oooh, now I see some initial resistances here. BUT that clarification
concerning "disappearing" is nice. Yeppers, guess I have to say I saw this
coming.

> -- Grounding has been almost eliminated, apparently. Not sure how
> the new stuff works, but...

Ah, but I'll wager a guess one these days to the general public. Go look into
Aura Manipulation and you will likely get the ideas you need.

> -- The carification of just what and where magic came from helped
> explain things like Critter Powers and how they worked.

Oh? Now this could be helpful, especially if something concerning critters
getting to use the "more complicated powers" like Illusion and the like.

> 14. Street Gear! Lots of detailed minor street gear. Stuff like tools
> and little stuff :] Woohoo!

Oh goodie, now I can finally design that personalized micro/electronics tool
kits that have been on Binder's gear list for years.

> 15. Legality Ratings added

Oh wow, let's hope they give a better list of details concerning how
"Legality" ratings come into play then.

> 16. Recoil Compensation has been added to the weapons lists, so that you
> know about any built in Recoil Comp.

Useful.

> 17. LMGs got moved to Heavy Weapons (The newer version of personal gunnery
> skill. Gunnery now covers Vehicle Weapons).

Okay, this finally makes some sense. That clarification between "Heavy
Weapons" and "Gunnery" was needed a long time ago.

> 18. List of where weapon mounts go on guns.

Could be useful as all hell.

> 19. BTLs, SINs, and the various Credstick rules added.

This will make it nice for the beginning or relatively new player.

> 20. Rules for Spurs, and for using two spurs at once.

Oh, then do they also toss in dual smartlink options yet??? Probably not, but
one could wonder.

> 21. Boosted Reflexes and Bonelacing added.

To the base book eh? Interesting? Wonder why they continue to carry the
dead-end tech (BR) instead of the more advanced stuff like the Reaction
Enhancers (which would work with Wired Reflexes for instance).

> 22. Most of SSC stuff is added to basic gear lists.

SSC??? Okay, I have missed the analogy...oh wait, forget it. This stuff was
already added in the extended section of the SR2 though. No huge change,
except they could have saved themselves almost 5 pages if they had kept it all
in one section instead of putting in multiple division areas.

> 23. Rules for Using Biotech with things like Medkits (Just how do these
> work? :))

We've had rules for these years ago, but it would be nice to see how FASA does
their descriptions.

> 24. Manifestation gets renamed for Mages and Spirits. Don;t rememebr
> which is which, but one gets called Materialization instead of
> Manifestation, and the other remains Manifestation. This distinguishes
> between what Astral mages do to get seen, and what Spirits do to move to
> the physical realm.

As Steve told us was likely to come along. Manifestation is for both
Magicians and Spirits while Materialization (the ability to take on a semi-
solid form or shell) is granted to most of the categories of spirits.

Yeah, most of what Kenson's been doing and suggested is understandable.

> 25. Alphaware is in and is now basic gear. Price dropped to double
> regular cyber. This means players now get to diecided money vs essence
> when buying basic cyber.

Good thing too.

> 26. Cyberlimb updates. Two different types, Synthetic limbs vs. Obvious.
> Obvious are the big metal clunky kind, but they're cheaper and easier to
> add mods. Synth are disguised, cost more, and are harder to add things.

Ah, nice consideration there. This is the intro to the new rules for
"biotech" that you mentioned in your other post btw.

> 27. Working with the above are guidelines for obvious cyber in public, and
> how people react (Not Cyberpsychosis, I think, but more a social reaction).
> This also has a section for wearing armor in public.

Ah, so now depending on where you are/living is how the crowds will respond to
you. Nice touches. Especially considering that Binder just moved to
Tenochtitlan for the hell of it (and what a beatiful hell it is too ;).

> 28. Cyberlimbs get strength boost. Instead of all cyberlimbs having a
> strength 3, they start at the "average" strength for the race they are
> designed for. 4 for Elves and Humans, 5 for Dwarf, 6 for Ork, and 8 for
> Troll, I think.

FINALLY! I was waiting for this. Makes far more design sense in the long
run.

> 29. Astral perception gets some modifiers, things like light, etc.

Ah, wonder how they determine the factors for this one...

> 30. Overall, it looks to be a good book. The Manuscript that we got to
> see looked fantastic, and it had some of the B&W art in it already. Good
> stuff... :]

Ah shucks, would have liked to have seen it. Maybe Jeremy will have some of
this when he gets here tomorrow night....

> Well, anyways, that should answer your questions, and if not, I probably
> can;t but will try.

It didn't necessarily answer any questions, but it definitely proved what I
already knew or had heard some rumors of.

> Night all, time for me to sleep...
> Bull

Catch ya later today or tonight even perhaps...
-K
Message no. 19
From: Gurth <gurth@******.NL>
Subject: Re: Quick Eulogy for the passing of SR2
Date: Mon, 6 Jul 1998 19:59:16 +0100
Adam J said on 7:53/6 Jul 98,...

> Since Mike talked about it publicly, I guess I can explain this now.. And,
> if not, BULL DID IT!! ;)
>
> Joe rolls 13 on his initiative, Sarah 17, Anti-Bob 6.
>
> First Round:
> Sarah: 17
> Joe: 13
> Anti-Bob: 6

What, you mean OBO? *Gurth spits to avert evil*

:)

> Second Round
> Sarah: 7
> Joe: 3
> Anti-Bob: None
>
> Does that make more sense? It works really nicely :)

Ah yes, that way it makes sense, and it also instantly solves the
problem of all magicians getting killed by the street sams before
they can act. Now the sams have to be careful at the start of the
turn, and only if they survive, do get to kill the magicians ;)

> >> 6. Trolls/Elves are now priority C on the race Priority. Dwarves/Orks
> are D.
> >
> >Are you sure you didn't get the races mixed up? Elves and orks
> >are the common ones, trolls and dwarfs a lot less so.
>
> He's right, IIRC..

Then it makes little or no sense to me... If you look at any
population chart in SR source material, the trolls and dwarfs are
very much outnumbered by the elves and orks. Unless the
intention behind the priority tables isn't to represent this, this
just doesn't feel right... (Read that sentence again, it does make
sense :)

> >> 8. NPCs have no threat pool any more. Instead they get normal dice pools.
>
> IMO if you don't want to keep track of everyones dice pools you could
> probably use this formula to determine a quick and easy TR (All dice pools
> added together) / Number of dice pools. It's off the top of my head, but
> it should be decent.. :)

I think I might just stick to TRs.

--
Gurth@******.nl - http://www.xs4all.nl/~gurth/index.html
Could you ever be alone?
-> NERPS Project Leader * ShadowRN GridSec * Unofficial Shadowrun Guru <-
-> The Plastic Warriors Page: http://www.xs4all.nl/~gurth/plastic.html <-
-> The New Character Mortuary: http://www.electricferret.com/mortuary/ <-

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Incubated into the First Church of the Sqooshy Ball, 21-05-1998
Message no. 20
From: K is the Symbol <Ereskanti@***.COM>
Subject: Re: Quick Eulogy for the passing of SR2
Date: Mon, 6 Jul 1998 14:02:58 EDT
In a message dated 7/6/98 4:49:23 AM US Eastern Standard Time, gurth@******.NL
writes:

> This sounds good, although I guess I'll have to wait and see the
> actual rules because it sounds a bit fuzzy to me the way you
> described it... Does everyone act at the same time or something?

IF I understand it correctly, it means everyone get's to act first, but then
everyone with some 'real speed' get's to react to the actions.

> > -- Skills are all linked directly to an attribute now. Your
> skills
> > are also limited by your attribute ratings. They cost more to buy above
> > your attribute (both at Char Gen and during game play with karma).
> > -- The Skill Web is gone. Instead there is a list with all the
> > skills grouped with similar skills. You can default to these skills or
> > your attribute only. No more making Eti tests using your firearms :]
>
> Argh! This doesn't sound so good at all... The skill web was IMHO
> one of the best things in SR's whole skill system, because it
> allowed anyone to apply knowledge to related areas. This new
> system seems to limit it a lot more...

Gurth, reread Bull's paragraph closer. It still does allow for relationship
theory to skills groups. It just doesn't allow for skills to cross various
"spheres of interest". IE, the usage of an Etiquette Skill to fire a Pistol.
I do agree, the Skill Web is nice, very nice actually. But on the
extreme/fringe edges of it, it is scarey.

> > 6. Trolls/Elves are now priority C on the race Priority. Dwarves/Orks
> are D.
>
> Are you sure you didn't get the races mixed up? Elves and orks
> are the common ones, trolls and dwarfs a lot less so.

I think I would look at it from the POV that Dwarves/Orks have fewer attribute
mods as compared to Trolls/Elves (well, this explanation works for Trolls
anyway). Priority means more to the basis of design, not the prevalence of
encounter.

> > 8. NPCs have no threat pool any more. Instead they get normal dice
pools.
>
>
> I don't like that one... Makes for WAY too much bookkeeping, in
> my experience (the first 6 months or so of playing SRII, I used
> this system; I switched to TR because it's much easier to keep
> tarck of).

I do agree with you, my earlier remark about Bug spirits and speed was because
of how Threat Rating and attacks are determined.

> > 11. There is a section that discusses how to set Target Numbers.
>
> What do you mean, discussing how to set TNs? It's something
> you can't really learn, but have to develop a feel for, isn't it? :)

Yes, but helping a newer GM in setting the feel for things is helpful.

> > -- Spellcasting is now based on your Sorcery, NOT the force. Force
> > still detrmines Opponents TN, the effect of the spell, etc. But you roll
> > your Sorc now instead of the force ewhile casting. I like this since it
> no
> > longer means that low level spells are more likely to fail :]
>
> But it also means we'll probably see lots of magicians learning
> only Force 1 spells for which there isn't a resistance test involved,
> because they don't need the Force to generate successes any
> longer.

Really? I don't think so. the drain tests are still being changed further
down the road, AND taking a spell at lower force still implies the
opponent/target has an easier time at resisting it. This is going back to the
concept of the "Magic is a Gun" theory. Power of the Gun is equal to the
Force of the spell. Skill at directing it is the guy pulling the trigger.

> > 14. Street Gear! Lots of detailed minor street gear. Stuff like tools
> > and little stuff :] Woohoo!
>
> I hope this means FASA will in future provide rules and stats for
> not just the useful things, but also for (semi-)useless toys that
> give color to a character...

Would be nice, but doubtful. NERPS stuff will likely not make it to any major
(non-Web) lists in the near future.

-K
Message no. 21
From: Nexx Many-Scars <Nexx3@***.COM>
Subject: Re: Quick Eulogy for the passing of SR2
Date: Mon, 6 Jul 1998 14:09:08 EDT
In a message dated 98-07-06 10:32:47 EDT, you write:

> >29. Astral perception gets some modifiers, things like light, etc.
>
> What?

That was my reaction... IIRC, either astral space always puts out a neutral
sort of light... or everyone and his dog (literally) glows, so light isn't
much of a problem so long as you're around.

Nexx
Message no. 22
From: "Droopy ." <mmanhardt@*****.NET>
Subject: Re: Quick Eulogy for the passing of SR2
Date: Mon, 6 Jul 1998 14:13:21 -0400
From: Gurth <gurth@******.NL>
Subject: Re: Quick Eulogy for the passing of SR2

> > Basically, you roll initiative. Everyone goes once, starting with the
> > highest initiative total. Once everyone has gone once, subtract 10 from
> > your rolled initiative. Everyone that still has a positive number gets to
> > go a second time, and so on. It works very well, and fixes the problem of
> > speedsters vs. magic.
>
> This sounds good, although I guess I'll have to wait and see the
> actual rules because it sounds a bit fuzzy to me the way you
> described it... Does everyone act at the same time or something?

Its kind of like in AD&D when you get an additional attack it
happens at the end of the round no matter what your initiative is.
Not sure I like this any more than the other way. There should be
a way to equalise this.

Maybe allowing the faster people to have a maximum of 1/2 their
actions before everyone else goes, then the other 1/2 afterwards.
This would go far in the way of evening things out.

> Argh! This doesn't sound so good at all... The skill web was IMHO
> one of the best things in SR's whole skill system, because it
> allowed anyone to apply knowledge to related areas. This new
> system seems to limit it a lot more...

I agree here totally. The skill web made sense.

> > 8. NPCs have no threat pool any more. Instead they get normal dice pools.
>
> I don't like that one... Makes for WAY too much bookkeeping, in
> my experience (the first 6 months or so of playing SRII, I used
> this system; I switched to TR because it's much easier to keep
> tarck of).

I plan to stick to the threat pool.



--Droopy
Message no. 23
From: K is the Symbol <Ereskanti@***.COM>
Subject: Re: Quick Eulogy for the passing of SR2
Date: Mon, 6 Jul 1998 14:17:55 EDT
In a message dated 7/6/98 9:55:48 AM US Eastern Standard Time,
decker@****.FSU.EDU writes:

> Actually its kinda funny, but since Steve is on the list, and interacts
> with quite a few of us, I feel pretty comfortable that the magic system
> will be well thought out, and will "fix" most of our complaints over the
> years. After seeing Bull's post, I'm slightly more worried about the
> skill web and initiative etc, but hey you can't please everyone.
> Hmm...what are we down too..two monthes and counting. :) SR3 here we come.
>
Actually Lehlah, it's 1 month now as i'm arriving at Gencon in exactly one
months time from today. And yes, I am starting to count finally.

-K
Message no. 24
From: K is the Symbol <Ereskanti@***.COM>
Subject: Re: Quick Eulogy for the passing of SR2
Date: Mon, 6 Jul 1998 14:26:50 EDT
In a message dated 7/6/98 10:59:26 AM US Eastern Standard Time,
drekhead@***.NET writes:

> > - Magic Pool has been replaced by Spell Pool. This is now calulated
> > by adding Int, Will, and Magic, divided by 2 or 3 (I think), instead of
> > being directly related to the sorcery skill.
>
> Again, sounds like a reason for characters to max attributes.
>
In this one aspect, I don't think I would care. Sure, the magician will
probably max out his/her Int/Will (or do you now pay for magic attribute as
well :). In that one case, it will simply drag out the power base for the
other attribs. Remember, never bring a knife to a Gun fight ;P

-K
Message no. 25
From: Lehlan Decker <decker@****.FSU.EDU>
Subject: Re: Quick Eulogy for the passing of SR2
Date: Mon, 6 Jul 1998 14:31:03 -0500
>
> In a message dated 7/6/98 9:55:48 AM US Eastern Standard Time,
> decker@****.FSU.EDU writes:
>
> > Actually its kinda funny, but since Steve is on the list, and interacts
> > with quite a few of us, I feel pretty comfortable that the magic system
> > will be well thought out, and will "fix" most of our complaints over
the
> > years. After seeing Bull's post, I'm slightly more worried about the
> > skill web and initiative etc, but hey you can't please everyone.
> > Hmm...what are we down too..two monthes and counting. :) SR3 here we come.
> >
> Actually Lehlah, it's 1 month now as i'm arriving at Gencon in exactly one
> months time from today. And yes, I am starting to count finally.
>
For you perhaps. For those of us unlucky enough not to make gencon
it may take a bit longer. :( Actually I'm more excited that the
errata for CyberPirates, R2, etc etc will finally appear after SR3 is out. :)


--
--------------------------------------------------------------------
Lehlan Decker (850)644-4534 Systems Development
decker@****.fsu.edu http://www.scri.fsu.edu/~decker
--------------------------------------------------------------------
Morality is moral only when it is voluntary.
Message no. 26
From: Bull <chaos@*****.COM>
Subject: Re: Quick Eulogy for the passing of SR2
Date: Mon, 6 Jul 1998 14:42:44 -0400
At 10:47 AM 7/6/98 -0500, Lehlan Decker wrote these timeless words:

>> >30. Overall, it looks to be a good book. The Manuscript that we got to
>> >see looked fantastic, and it had some of the B&W art in it already. Good
>> >stuff... :]
>>
>> You got manuscript?!? You BASTARD!!!
>>
>Hmm..I wonder if we could convince him to use a scanner.....nah DLOH probably
>wouldn't go for that. :(
>Sigh...soon I will have more disposable income for trips to cons...BAHAHAHAH.
>
Ok, I didn;t GET a manuscript... i got to leaf through one at Origins...
just to straighten things out (Although I really could use the money I've
been offered for Photocopies :))

Bull
--
Bull -- The Best Ork Decker You Never Met
chaos@*****.com ===== bull22@***********.com
http://www.geocities.com/Area51/Cavern/3604

=======================================================
= =
= Order is Illusion! Chaos is Bliss! Got any Fours? =
= =
Message no. 27
From: Bull <chaos@*****.COM>
Subject: Re: Quick Eulogy for the passing of SR2
Date: Mon, 6 Jul 1998 14:42:46 -0400
At 10:18 AM 7/6/98 -0500, John E Pederson wrote these timeless words:

>> 3. Initiative gets a slight facelift. This is one I partlicularly like
>> for various reasons <g>. Basically, the action order has been rearranged
>> slightly, so that everyone gets to go early in the round, and the
>> speedsters get all there extra actions later in the round.
>
>Hmmm. Not so sure what to think about this. I don't see this as being a
terribly
>large improvement over the previous system, to be honest.
>
Oh yeah? Well sit down and run a quick fight with someone with Wired 3
againats a group of 4-6 unchromed gangers both ways. With old system,
mister "38 on initiative" kills 3-4 gangers before they can even act. New
system, maybe he geeks one before he gets pummled.

Besides the GM side of the system, you also have a lot more teamwork, as
Mike put it, because suddenly everyone gets an action in the same round
right away.

>> 6. Trolls/Elves are now priority C on the race Priority. Dwarves/Orks
are D.
>
>House rule #1... Can't say I like this one at all. Seems like a bad idea
to me.
>And like it's maybe a tad off in some respects.
>
Agreed... This is one area I'm not sure I like, but... Until I see it in
action though... <shrug>

Lets just say that mid to late August should be quite interesting :]

>> 17. LMGs got moved to Heavy Weapons (The newer version of personal gunnery
>> skill. Gunnery now covers Vehicle Weapons).
>
>IMHO, this is where LMGs should probably have been to begin with.
>
<laugh>

Mike decided this after looking through a book about military weapons, and
was looking at this Light Machine Gun that's like 4 feet long and weighed
close to 100 pounds. His response was "Who the hell decided THAT was a
normal firearm??" :]

>> 24. Manifestation gets renamed for Mages and Spirits. Don;t rememebr
>> which is which, but one gets called Materialization instead of
>> Manifestation, and the other remains Manifestation. This distinguishes
>> between what Astral mages do to get seen, and what Spirits do to move to
>> the physical realm.
>
>Funny, seems like I remember Steve asking us about that one...
>
Gee, I wonder why? :]

Seriously, the list is really a greta place for feedback on stuff. We have
a great cross-section of SR players. and not everyone can agree on
everything. This, despite the arguments that shows up, is a great thing
because it lets people like Steve see both sides of an idea...

Bull
--
Bull -- The Best Ork Decker You Never Met
chaos@*****.com ===== bull22@***********.com
http://www.geocities.com/Area51/Cavern/3604

=======================================================
= =
= Order is Illusion! Chaos is Bliss! Got any Fours? =
= =
Message no. 28
From: Bull <chaos@*****.COM>
Subject: Re: Quick Eulogy for the passing of SR2
Date: Mon, 6 Jul 1998 14:42:42 -0400
At 01:57 PM 7/6/98 +0100, Spike wrote these timeless words:
>And verily, did Bull hastily scribble thusly...
>| Basically, you roll initiative. Everyone goes once, starting with the
>|highest initiative total. Once everyone has gone once, subtract 10 from
>|your rolled initiative. Everyone that still has a positive number gets to
>|go a second time, and so on. It works very well, and fixes the problem of
>|speedsters vs. magic.
>
>Similar to RIFTS then.....
>
Ummm... Not sure... I don;t play rifts :]

And since that's Palladium, it should ring a bell, but... I haven;t played
Ninja Turtles in years...

Bull
--
Bull -- The Best Ork Decker You Never Met
chaos@*****.com ===== bull22@***********.com
http://www.geocities.com/Area51/Cavern/3604

=======================================================
= =
= Order is Illusion! Chaos is Bliss! Got any Fours? =
= =
Message no. 29
From: Bull <chaos@*****.COM>
Subject: Re: Quick Eulogy for the passing of SR2
Date: Mon, 6 Jul 1998 14:42:38 -0400
At 11:37 AM 7/6/98 +0100, Gurth wrote these timeless words:
>Bull said on 4:17/6 Jul 98,...
>
>> 3. Initiative gets a slight facelift. This is one I partlicularly like
>> for various reasons <g>. Basically, the action order has been rearranged
>> slightly, so that everyone gets to go early in the round, and the
>> speedsters get all there extra actions later in the round.
>> Basically, you roll initiative. Everyone goes once, starting with the
>> highest initiative total. Once everyone has gone once, subtract 10 from
>> your rolled initiative. Everyone that still has a positive number gets to
>> go a second time, and so on. It works very well, and fixes the problem of
>> speedsters vs. magic.
>
>This sounds good, although I guess I'll have to wait and see the
>actual rules because it sounds a bit fuzzy to me the way you
>described it... Does everyone act at the same time or something?
>
The way mike decsribed it was this: Gurth has a 26 Initiative, Bull has
17, and Caric is going on a measly 5. Here's how it works...

Gurth goes first, then Bull, then Caric. After this, everyone substracts
10. Caric is down for the turn. Gurth has a 16 and Bull now has a 7, so
they get a second action, with Gurth going first. Now substract 10 again.
now only Gurth has an action, on 6.

Make sense? Mike has a big examples section on this one, because while the
concept is very simple once you understand it, but it's fuzzy until then :]

>> 6. Trolls/Elves are now priority C on the race Priority. Dwarves/Orks
are D.
>
>Are you sure you didn't get the races mixed up? Elves and orks
>are the common ones, trolls and dwarfs a lot less so.
>
This is based more on "power" than on commonality. In general, Dwarves and
Orks are the less powerful of the 4 metas. Oh yeah, and Dwarfs and Trolls
have a slight modification to their racial penalties... I think they're
not quite as harsh anymore...

>> 11. There is a section that discusses how to set Target Numbers.
>
>What do you mean, discussing how to set TNs? It's something
>you can't really learn, but have to develop a feel for, isn't it? :)
>
Honestlly I'm not sure... I'm assuming this is guidelines and such...
keep in mind a LOT of this book is really geared towards the new Player and
GM. And this is one of the sections I really haven;t read through yet
(Didn;t get a chance down there, so...)

>> 13. MAGIC! Honestly, it didn;t look like any really drastic changes got
>> made. Basically, they reworked the philosophy of how magic works, things
>> like how Auras interacted and that really fixed a lot of the major
problems.
>>
>> -- Spellcasting is now based on your Sorcery, NOT the force. Force
>> still detrmines Opponents TN, the effect of the spell, etc. But you roll
>> your Sorc now instead of the force ewhile casting. I like this since it no
>> longer means that low level spells are more likely to fail :]
>
>But it also means we'll probably see lots of magicians learning
>only Force 1 spells for which there isn't a resistance test involved,
>because they don't need the Force to generate successes any
>longer.
>
I'll have to wait and see the full magic stuff to really decide on this one
way or another really... I think it solves a lot of problems, and brings
magic inline with the rest of the skills. I'll need to wait for the new
spell list though...

>> 18. List of where weapon mounts go on guns.
>
>??? That's already there in SRI and SRII...
>
Well, I believe it's actually a little more detailed about what the mount
looks like and how it's attached, and such. In SR1 and 2 it's kind of a
nice vague "underbarrel" list, and no description of how big the mount is...

However, this is another section I haven;t read, so... <shrug>

Bull
Message no. 30
From: Bull <chaos@*****.COM>
Subject: Re: Quick Eulogy for the passing of SR2
Date: Mon, 6 Jul 1998 15:15:15 -0400
At 02:09 PM 7/6/98 EDT, Nexx Many-Scars wrote these timeless words:
>In a message dated 98-07-06 10:32:47 EDT, you write:
>
>> >29. Astral perception gets some modifiers, things like light, etc.
>>
>> What?
>
>That was my reaction... IIRC, either astral space always puts out a neutral
>sort of light... or everyone and his dog (literally) glows, so light isn't
>much of a problem so long as you're around.
>
I was fairly fuzzy on this one... Magic is NOT my strongest area, abnd
even less so when it comes to rules I've skimmed (and it sounds like this
may have been added after the playtest stuff I saw).

From what Mike hinted at (He was throwing so much at us that this was one
that no one thought to go back and ask for more clarification, I guess)
ambient light may be gone. It's probably related to the whole Aural issue
that gets reworked...

Bull
--
Bull -- The Best Ork Decker You Never Met
chaos@*****.com ===== bull22@***********.com
http://www.geocities.com/Area51/Cavern/3604

=======================================================
= =
= Order is Illusion! Chaos is Bliss! Got any Fours? =
= =
Message no. 31
From: Bull <chaos@*****.COM>
Subject: Re: Quick Eulogy for the passing of SR2
Date: Mon, 6 Jul 1998 15:15:11 -0400
At 01:52 PM 7/6/98 EDT, K is the Symbol wrote these timeless words:

>> Well, maybe not :]
>
>Oh yeah, tease us some more why don't ya :)
>
Hehe... Bascially I was trying to convince myself that, yes, I could
survive another three hours while I reread my notes and typed all that
up... I know I missed a few things, and if I remember I may add them
later, but in general you'll get it all in a month or so...


>> 3. Initiative gets a slight facelift. This is one I partlicularly like
>> for various reasons <g>. Basically, the action order has been rearranged
>> slightly, so that everyone gets to go early in the round, and the
>> speedsters get all there extra actions later in the round.
>> Basically, you roll initiative. Everyone goes once, starting with
the
>> highest initiative total. Once everyone has gone once, subtract 10 from
>> your rolled initiative. Everyone that still has a positive number gets to
>> go a second time, and so on. It works very well, and fixes the problem of
>> speedsters vs. magic.
>
>Didn't I hear about this one at some point?
>
You shouldn;t have... as far as I know, this was an area that even some of
the general playtesters didn;t end up working on... Mike really wanted
this section kept silent, especially till a system was worked out, because
it had the potential to spark so much discussion and argument... We went
through a good half dozen radically different systems before finding one
that worked...

>> -- There are now only General and Concentrations of skills.
>> -- Active Skills were broken up a lot, especially Firearms. Instead
>> of a general firearms skill, you now need to learn Pistol, Rifle, SMG,
etc.
>> Then you can Concentrate in a certain type of pistol, or whatever.
>> -- You get 10 more points per priority than you used to using the
>> Priority System before. These are used for Active SKills only.
>> -- You get your Intelligence x 5 in Knowledge Skill points to buy
>> Knowledge Skills. These cover everything from theory skills to 20th
>> century comic books.
>> -- Skills are all linked directly to an attribute now. Your skills
>> are also limited by your attribute ratings. They cost more to buy above
>> your attribute (both at Char Gen and during game play with karma).
>> -- The Skill Web is gone. Instead there is a list with all the
>> skills grouped with similar skills. You can default to these skills or
>> your attribute only. No more making Eti tests using your firearms :]
>
>Ya know, my initial impression was "that sucks", but now that I think about
>it, this makes a bundle of sense if you've explained it well enough (which
I'm
>sure your sleep addled mind and body have coordinated nicely to do :P)
>
I think I did... This section is actually one I spent the longest on
trying to figure out how to present, since between muy fuzzy recollection
and several pages of scribbled and barely legible notes didn;t exactly lend
itself to a simple explanation :]

>> 5. Phys ADs are now known as simply Adepts. All the other magical adepts
>> are now known as Aspected Magicians.
>
>Saw this coming from a light years' distance.
>
Hehe... at least from a 6 month old thread from Steve K :]

>> 9. They modified the way you get Karma Pool. It's now 1 for every 20
>> instead of 1 for 10.
>
>Okay, this isn't required. Not at all IMO. If you wanted this, you could
>have opted for the SRComp's system and taken the flaw that does this anyway.
>Why on earth did they do this in this fashion anyway?
>
<shrug>

Not sure about that....

>> 10. There will be rules for ways to burn Karma.
>
>Weren't there already???
>
This expolains the basic rules, and I believe adds a couple new options...
This is another one I don;t really know the details, just repeating what
was announced...

>> 12. There are several pages that explains exactly what the skill ratings
>> mean. They really emphasise the fact that 5-6 is a VERY high rating for
>> the skill, not "average". :]
>
>There were considered high before, 2-3 were the average before. Or are they
>just trying to re-emphasize this?
>
They really go into things like "Rating 5 armed combat means you've trained
for years with a master and are considered one of the best" type of thing.
It's a serious emphization about it, so that players might think twice
before giving their characters a 6 firearms and then saying "His father
took him to a shooting range once a month as a kid" as an explanation.

Not that this will really clear things up, but...

Oh, and a LOT of people didn;t realize that 6 was supposed to be a Master
level for a skill... I've gotten into several "discussions" on IRC about
this subject.

Bull
--
Bull -- The Best Ork Decker You Never Met
chaos@*****.com ===== bull22@***********.com
http://www.geocities.com/Area51/Cavern/3604

=======================================================
= =
= Order is Illusion! Chaos is Bliss! Got any Fours? =
= =
Message no. 32
From: Erik Jameson <erikj@****.COM>
Subject: Re: Quick Eulogy for the passing of SR2
Date: Mon, 6 Jul 1998 15:19:19 -0400
At 10:30 AM 7/6/98 -0400, you wrote:

>>26. Cyberlimb updates. Two different types, Synthetic limbs vs. Obvious.
>>Obvious are the big metal clunky kind, but they're cheaper and easier to
>>add mods. Synth are disguised, cost more, and are harder to add things.
>
> Nice add. I always went for concealed before becuase I never could
>see a reason to show your chrome. Very uncyberpunk I know.

Sounds pretty cool to me. Obvious limbs could probably have add-on/snap-on
modular additions, while you couldn't do the same with a synthentic limb.
I like this, at least in theory.

>>30. Overall, it looks to be a good book. The Manuscript that we got to
>>see looked fantastic, and it had some of the B&W art in it already. Good
>>stuff... :]
>
> You got manuscript?!? You BASTARD!!!

Wait a minute. Did Bull actually say he possesses a pre-production
manuscript, or that he got to look at one at Origins?

I'd be very suprised if he got a full manuscript, even if he was a
playtester and is Bull, master of bull. ;-)

Damn, I can't wait for SR3 to hit the shelves now...

Erik J.

URL to go here eventually...
Message no. 33
From: John E Pederson <pedersje@******.ROSE-HULMAN.EDU>
Subject: Re: Quick Eulogy for the passing of SR2
Date: Mon, 6 Jul 1998 14:57:31 -0500
I guess this means you're up, eh, Bull?
:)

Bull wrote:
>
> At 10:18 AM 7/6/98 -0500, John E Pederson wrote these timeless words:
> >Hmmm. Not so sure what to think about this. I don't see this as being a terribly
> >large improvement over the previous system, to be honest.
> >
> Oh yeah? Well sit down and run a quick fight with someone with Wired 3
> againats a group of 4-6 unchromed gangers both ways. With old system,
> mister "38 on initiative" kills 3-4 gangers before they can even act. New
> system, maybe he geeks one before he gets pummled.
>
> Besides the GM side of the system, you also have a lot more teamwork, as
> Mike put it, because suddenly everyone gets an action in the same round
> right away.


I'm well aware of what it means, Bull:) I'm just not so sure if I really like
it. And it's not like I said wasn't any better or that it was worse than the
current system. Just not a large improvement, IMHO. It seems to me that the guy
who 300+K nY on a new nervous system ought to be able to act twice or three
times before a group of gutterpunks who might be high on crystal meth. While the
new setup makes it possible for everyone to act before it's all over, I don't
think it accurately illustrates that. But that's just me:) Personally, I'm a
much bigger fan of distributing the actions around phase 0, with actions taking
place on both sides of that. But it's a tad more complicated than other methods.

> >> 6. Trolls/Elves are now priority C on the race Priority. Dwarves/Orks are
D.
> >
> >House rule #1... Can't say I like this one at all. Seems like a bad idea to me.
> >And like it's maybe a tad off in some respects.
> >
> Agreed... This is one area I'm not sure I like, but... Until I see it in
> action though... <shrug>
>
> Lets just say that mid to late August should be quite interesting :]

Yeah, no kidding. By the end of the week after GC, my roommate will probably be
so sick of listening to gripe/praise/rant about the new book that he won't want
to hear anything about Shadowrun for the next year or so:)

> Mike decided this after looking through a book about military weapons, and
> was looking at this Light Machine Gun that's like 4 feet long and weighed
> close to 100 pounds. His response was "Who the hell decided THAT was a
> normal firearm??" :]

I guess it wasn't a terribly difficult call, eh? :)

> >Funny, seems like I remember Steve asking us about that one...
> >
> Gee, I wonder why? :]
>
> Seriously, the list is really a greta place for feedback on stuff. We have
> a great cross-section of SR players. and not everyone can agree on
> everything. This, despite the arguments that shows up, is a great thing
> because it lets people like Steve see both sides of an idea...

<g> I've done the same from time to time for my own stuff. Now, if I can only
get myself into one of those books, I'll be set:)

--
John Pederson otherwise known as Lyle Canthros, shapeshifter-mage
----------------------------------------------------------------------
"Everyone who is seriously involved in the pursuit of science becomes
convinced that a spirit is manifest in the laws of the universe -- a
spirit vastly superior to that of man, and one in the face of which we
with our modest powers must feel humble."
--Albert Einstein
lobo1@****.com canthros1@***.com pedersje@******.rose-hulman.edu
http://www.geocities.com/Area51/Lair/4864 ICQ UIN 3190186
"I'm not fifty!" "SPOONMAN!!!" Number Two -- with a bullet!
Message no. 34
From: Smilin' Ted <Tuvyah@***.COM>
Subject: Re: Quick Eulogy for the passing of SR2
Date: Mon, 6 Jul 1998 15:57:24 EDT
In a message dated 7/6/98 7:59:39 AM, drekhead wrote:

>> 3. Initiative gets a slight facelift. This is one I partlicularly like
>> for various reasons <g>. Basically, the action order has been rearranged
>> slightly, so that everyone gets to go early in the round, and the
>> speedsters get all there extra actions later in the round.
>
>I like the sound of this. It gives everyone a fair shake, and no more
>sitting around while the sammies clean up. Yea, that will still
>happen, but at least the slow characters get to make an impression
>first.

At the very least, it will reduce the incentive for players building magicians
to take an increase reflexes spell every time, no matter what the background
or tradition of the PC.
Message no. 35
From: Bull <chaos@*****.COM>
Subject: Re: Quick Eulogy for the passing of SR2
Date: Mon, 6 Jul 1998 16:20:44 -0400
At 02:57 PM 7/6/98 -0500, John E Pederson wrote these timeless words:
>I guess this means you're up, eh, Bull?
>:)
>
Yeah, unfortunately... I woke up hungry, realizing I only ate lunch
yesterday, then decided I needed to see everyone's reactions to my posts :]

Honestly, I'm glad to see that, so far, no one has panicked as badly as I
half expected...

>I'm well aware of what it means, Bull:) I'm just not so sure if I really like
>it. And it's not like I said wasn't any better or that it was worse than the
>current system. Just not a large improvement, IMHO. It seems to me that
the guy
>who 300+K nY on a new nervous system ought to be able to act twice or three
>times before a group of gutterpunks who might be high on crystal meth.
While the
>new setup makes it possible for everyone to act before it's all over, I don't
>think it accurately illustrates that. But that's just me:) Personally, I'm a
>much bigger fan of distributing the actions around phase 0, with actions
taking
>place on both sides of that. But it's a tad more complicated than other
methods.
>
Well... Mike hinted at the possibility of tech or other stuff that would
allow characters to get an extra action early or whatever, but I know this
is still in the concept stage, so no hard info...

Bull
--
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chaos@*****.com ===== bull22@***********.com
http://www.geocities.com/Area51/Cavern/3604

=======================================================
= =
= Order is Illusion! Chaos is Bliss! Got any Fours? =
= =
Message no. 36
From: David Buehrer <dbuehrer@******.CARL.ORG>
Subject: Re: Quick Eulogy for the passing of SR2
Date: Mon, 6 Jul 1998 14:17:51 -0600
The Bookworm wrote:
/
/ On Mon, 6 Jul 1998, David Buehrer wrote:
/
/ > Adam J wrote:
/ > / IMO if you don't want to keep track of everyones dice pools you could
/ > / probably use this formula to determine a quick and easy TR (All dice pools
/ > / added together) / Number of dice pools. It's off the top of my head, but
/ > / it should be decent.. :)
/ > Aaarrrgg!
/ > I wanted to be the first one to make a house rule for SR3!
/ > <grump>
/ > ;)
/ > -David
/
/ Hmmm. What does it say about us when even though the games isnt even
/ finished yet, much less avalible for sale, and we are already making house
/ rules for it. :)

I don't know about anyone else, but I have a reputation to uphold ;)

-David
--
"If I told you, then I'd have to pull a Shadowrun against you. Sorry."
--
email: dbuehrer@******.carl.org
http://www.geocities.com/TimesSquare/1068/homepage.htm
Message no. 37
From: Tim Kerby <drekhead@***.NET>
Subject: Re: Quick Eulogy for the passing of SR2
Date: Mon, 6 Jul 1998 16:21:49 -0400
On 6 Jul 98, at 15:57, Smilin' Ted wrote:

> At the very least, it will reduce the incentive for players building
> magicians to take an increase reflexes spell every time, no matter what
> the background or tradition of the PC.

If it does that, I just might allow those spells in my game again. :)

--



=================================================================
- Tim Kerby - drekhead@***.net - ICQ-UIN 2883757 -
-----------------------------------------------------------------
"Reality is the only obstacle to happiness." - Unknown
Message no. 38
From: Alfredo B Alves <dghost@****.COM>
Subject: Re: Quick Eulogy for the passing of SR2
Date: Mon, 6 Jul 1998 15:12:17 -0500
On Mon, 6 Jul 1998 14:13:21 -0400 "Droopy ." <mmanhardt@*****.NET>
writes:
>From: Gurth <gurth@******.NL>
>Subject: Re: Quick Eulogy for the passing of SR2
>
>> > Basically, you roll initiative. Everyone goes once, starting
with the
>> > highest initiative total. Once everyone has gone once, subtract 10
from
>> > your rolled initiative. Everyone that still has a positive number
gets to
>> > go a second time, and so on. It works very well, and fixes the
problem of
>> > speedsters vs. magic.

>> This sounds good, although I guess I'll have to wait and see the
>> actual rules because it sounds a bit fuzzy to me the way you
>> described it... Does everyone act at the same time or something?

>Its kind of like in AD&D when you get an additional attack it
>happens at the end of the round no matter what your initiative is.
>Not sure I like this any more than the other way. There should be
>a way to equalise this.
>
>Maybe allowing the faster people to have a maximum of 1/2 their
>actions before everyone else goes, then the other 1/2 afterwards.
>This would go far in the way of evening things out.

<SNIP>
>--Droopy

I like Hero's & Rolemaster's sytems in this regard. In Hero each turn
was divided into 12 phases and you referenced your speed stat against a
chart to determine what phases you act on ... a speed of 1 acts on phase
7; a speed of 3 acts on phases 4, 8, and 12; and speed of 12 acts on all
12 phases ... if you had higher than 12, you act on all 12, then subtract
12 from your speed and consult again ...

Rolemaster also printing a system (in companion VI IIRC) where you keep
track of the time it takes to complete actions rather than intiative
scores ... ie, it'll take "w" seconds for me to attack/perfom a skill/etc
and it'll take so-and-so "x" seconds to complete what he/she's doing but
I started at time "y" and he/she started at time "z" so who will
finish
first?

D.Ghost
(aka Pixel, Tantrum, and RuPixel)
"Let he who is without SIN cast the first stone"

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Message no. 39
From: Lehlan Decker <decker@****.FSU.EDU>
Subject: Re: Quick Eulogy for the passing of SR2
Date: Mon, 6 Jul 1998 16:30:48 -0500
>
> At 02:57 PM 7/6/98 -0500, John E Pederson wrote these timeless words:
<SNIP Init ideas>
> >
> Well... Mike hinted at the possibility of tech or other stuff that would
> allow characters to get an extra action early or whatever, but I know this
> is still in the concept stage, so no hard info...
>
Ouch, that sounds way too similiar to "We know this isn't perfect, but
we'll release it, and come up with a hack/bugfix later".
Personally I never minded the old rules. Add in the one die that obeyed
the rule of sixes, and I found things usually balanced out ok (until you
hit the very high end of things). I'll reserve judgement until I see
the entire system however, if they fixed other combat problems, the initiative
system may make me happier then I think it will.



--
--------------------------------------------------------------------
Lehlan Decker (850)644-4534 Systems Development
decker@****.fsu.edu http://www.scri.fsu.edu/~decker
--------------------------------------------------------------------
Morality is moral only when it is voluntary.
Message no. 40
From: Lehlan Decker <decker@****.FSU.EDU>
Subject: Re: Quick Eulogy for the passing of SR2
Date: Mon, 6 Jul 1998 16:32:52 -0500
>
> On 6 Jul 98, at 15:57, Smilin' Ted wrote:
>
> > At the very least, it will reduce the incentive for players building
> > magicians to take an increase reflexes spell every time, no matter what
> > the background or tradition of the PC.
>
> If it does that, I just might allow those spells in my game again. :)
>
After you've grounded through enough spell locks, and destroyed enough
quickened spells, most of my PC's learned it wasn't worth it. If they
really wanted speed safely, they opt for that 1 point of magic loss =
cool cyberstuff option. My NPC's usually go the same route.
If you want easy speed increases, you run the risks. :)


--
--------------------------------------------------------------------
Lehlan Decker (850)644-4534 Systems Development
decker@****.fsu.edu http://www.scri.fsu.edu/~decker
--------------------------------------------------------------------
Morality is moral only when it is voluntary.
Message no. 41
From: Priell <priell@*********.NET.IL>
Subject: Re: Quick Eulogy for the passing of SR2
Date: Tue, 7 Jul 1998 00:26:27 +0300
>And verily, did Bull hastily scribble thusly...
>| Basically, you roll initiative. Everyone goes once, starting with=
the
>|highest initiative total. Once everyone has gone once, subtract 10 from
>|your rolled initiative. Everyone that still has a positive number gets=
to
>|go a second time, and so on. It works very well, and fixes the problem=
of
>|speedsters vs. magic.
>
>Similar to RIFTS then.....
>
I think there is a problem with that...
when you have high initiative maximum, it usually goes down the lower=
numbers
of the ten (32, 24, 41 - its hard to get 39, 29, 47)therefor, if you have=
an initiative
of 32, and your opponent has 6, he will have only one action, but that=
action will
take place before yours, and that could prove fatal. Plus, the whole point=
of high
initiative is having more actions (or even your first action) before your=
opponent...
I will use the normal system I think....

Nimrod Priell
Message no. 42
From: Matb <mbreton@**.NETCOM.COM>
Subject: Re: Quick Eulogy for the passing of SR2
Date: Tue, 7 Jul 1998 03:32:18 -0700
Priell wrote:

<hassan-CHOP>

> I think there is a problem with that...
> when you have high initiative maximum, it usually goes down the lower numbers
> of the ten (32, 24, 41 - its hard to get 39, 29, 47)therefor, if you have an
initiative
> of 32, and your opponent has 6, he will have only one action, but that action will
> take place before yours, and that could prove fatal. Plus, the whole point of high
> initiative is having more actions (or even your first action) before your opponent...
> I will use the normal system I think....

Actually, what it means is that sams and speed-demons have to learn to
play the defensive: their first action each turn is going to be to
turtle: Roll up in the armor and dodge or soak all incoming attacks.
Once the first thrust is over, they're at their leisure to pick apart
the opposition.


- Matt

------------------------------------
Quid gignitur ex hyaena et psittaco?
Animal uiribus ridendi in ioca sua eximum.

GridSec: SRCard / Freedonian Research Assistant
Teen Poets FAQ: http://pw1.netcom.com/~mbreton/poetry/poetfaq.htm
SRTCG Website: http://www.geocities.com/Area51/Station/2189/ccgtop.htm
Message no. 43
From: Alfredo B Alves <dghost@****.COM>
Subject: Re: Quick Eulogy for the passing of SR2
Date: Mon, 6 Jul 1998 16:39:14 -0500
On Mon, 6 Jul 1998 16:21:49 -0400 Tim Kerby <drekhead@***.NET> writes:
>On 6 Jul 98, at 15:57, Smilin' Ted wrote:
>> At the very least, it will reduce the incentive for players building
>> magicians to take an increase reflexes spell every time, no matter
what
>> the background or tradition of the PC.

>If it does that, I just might allow those spells in my game again. :)
>
>--
>
>
>
>=================================================================
> - Tim Kerby -
<SNIP Sig>

I actually told a player to take that spell because he didn't like
waiting on everyone and their mothers to go before he could act ... (Yes,
I know, may not be very IC but what's the point if the player isn't
enjoying himself?)

My Physical Adept only has +1 increase intiative power and she does just
fine :)

BTW, another way to control speed freaks is to apply the MBW penalties to
Wired reflexes (but they can avoid the penalties by turning their wires
on and off). So, if the sam is surprised, he has to spend an action
turning on his wires ... I would /maybe/ apply the penalties to boosted
reflexes/Synaptic accelerators but at least at with much longer intervals
between tests (use number of actual extra intiative dice as the rating of
the equivelant MBW system) ...

D.Ghost
(aka Pixel, Tantrum, and RuPixel)
"Let he who is without SIN cast the first stone"

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Message no. 44
From: roun <roun@***.NET>
Subject: Re: Quick Eulogy for the passing of SR2
Date: Mon, 6 Jul 1998 15:21:37 PDT
| At 11:37 06/07/98 +0100, you wrote:
|
| >> 3. Initiative gets a slight facelift. This is one I partlicularly
like
| >
| >This sounds good, although I guess I'll have to wait and see the
| >actual rules because it sounds a bit fuzzy to me the way you
| >described it... Does everyone act at the same time or something?
|
| Since Mike talked about it publicly, I guess I can explain this now.. And,
| if not, BULL DID IT!! ;)
|
| Joe rolls 13 on his initiative, Sarah 17, Anti-Bob 6.
|
| First Round:
| Sarah: 17
| Joe: 13
| Anti-Bob: 6
|
| Second Round
| Sarah: 7
| Joe: 3
| Anti-Bob: None
|
| Does that make more sense? It works really nicely :)
is that the new way?? that is the way i have always run it. was i
wrong??? oh well, it worked best that way for us.


| >> -- The Skill Web is gone. Instead there is a list with all the
| >> skills grouped with similar skills. You can default to these skills or
| >> your attribute only. No more making Eti tests using your firearms :]
| >
| >Argh! This doesn't sound so good at all... The skill web was IMHO
| >one of the best things in SR's whole skill system, because it
| >allowed anyone to apply knowledge to related areas. This new
| >system seems to limit it a lot more...
|
| I think this system will still allow for fair defaulting -- one other
| change that I'm not sure if Bull mentioned, there are a lot more active
| skills in general.
|
| >> 6. Trolls/Elves are now priority C on the race Priority. Dwarves/Orks
| are D.
| >
| >Are you sure you didn't get the races mixed up? Elves and orks
| >are the common ones, trolls and dwarfs a lot less so.
|
| He's right, IIRC..
| They also got a few racial mods tweaking, but I can't remember exactly
what.
good. this sounds good.


| >> 11. There is a section that discusses how to set Target Numbers.
<snip the rest>

I CANNOT WAIT TIL AUGUST....WAAAHHHHHH!!!!

roun aka david
roun@***.net

<<please direct all flames to my email address above, NOT the list>>
Message no. 45
From: roun <roun@***.NET>
Subject: Re: Quick Eulogy for the passing of SR2
Date: Mon, 6 Jul 1998 15:50:00 PDT
<snip a lot>
| > -- Skills are all linked directly to an attribute now. Your
| > skills are also limited by your attribute ratings. They cost more to
buy
| > above your attribute (both at Char Gen and during game play with
karma).
|
| This I'm leary of. I'll have to wait and see how it pans out, but
| other games I've played that did this always seemed to result in the
| characters maxing out their attribute scores.
taking a shot at this...am i right bull??? i think bull means that the
skills a linked directly to atrributes instead of the old skill web....not
that their skill values are linked to attribute values.

<sir snip a lot again>
| > - Magic Pool has been replaced by Spell Pool. This is now calulated
| > by adding Int, Will, and Magic, divided by 2 or 3 (I think), instead of
| > being directly related to the sorcery skill.
|
| Again, sounds like a reason for characters to max attributes.
yes but it is better IMHO than being based off of the sorcery skill. now
it is more like the combat pool which is good as now the mages cannot be
totally weak in the body and/or mind and still have a kickass magic pool.

| > -- Spell Locks no longer exist. Instead you have Reuseable Spell
| > Foci (I think theya re called) that you bond, then you have to cast a
| > spell into it every time you activate it, and it works at the successes
of
| > that casting. The real difference ebtween this and the locks (other
than
| > the recastings) is that this doesn;t mystically disappear when
activated,
| > and can easily be taken away or stolen.
|
| I like the sound of that. But one question;
| Can you ground through them? :) <ducks and runs for cover>
i do not know if i like the sound of that. it will prevent abuse for
sure...but...
actually bull said their is no more grounding...i think he said that
anyways.

<snip the rest>

again i can't wait to see it...and then to tinker with it so i like it
better...<grin>

roun aka david
roun@***.net

<<please direct all flames to my email address above, NOT the list>>
Message no. 46
From: Adam J <fro@***.AB.CA>
Subject: Re: Quick Eulogy for the passing of SR2
Date: Mon, 6 Jul 1998 17:13:21 -0600
At 15:21 06/07/98 PDT, you wrote:

>| Joe rolls 13 on his initiative, Sarah 17, Anti-Bob 6.
>|
>| First Round:
>| Sarah: 17
>| Joe: 13
>| Anti-Bob: 6
>|
>| Second Round
>| Sarah: 7
>| Joe: 3
>| Anti-Bob: None
>|

>is that the new way?? that is the way i have always run it. was i
>wrong??? oh well, it worked best that way for us.

SR2 would have been:

Sarah, Joe, Sarah, Anti-Bob, Joe.

-Adam J
-
< http://www.interware.it/users/adamj / ICQ# 2350330 / fro@***.ab.ca >
< ShadowRN Assistant Fearless Leader / TSA Co-Admin / TSS Productions >
< FreeRPG & Shadowrun Webring Admin / The Shadowrun Supplemental >
< The Entity responsible for the First Church of the Sqooshy Ball >
Message no. 47
From: Barbie <barbie@**********.COM>
Subject: Re: Quick Eulogy for the passing of SR2
Date: Tue, 7 Jul 1998 01:59:52 +0100
At 06-Jul-98 wrote Adam J:



>First Round:
>Sarah: 17
>Joe: 13
>Anti-Bob: 6

>Second Round
>Sarah: 7
>Joe: 3
>Anti-Bob: None

>Does that make more sense? It works really nicely :)

Bah same as in Rifts....I know what I will do for my game....



>All in all, Bull's little pep talk has made me Really excited about SR3 >:)

Strangly it turned me off...

--

-Barbie

---------------------------------------------------------------
"I am Microsoft of Borg. The superiority of other products is irrelevant."

http://www.amigaworld.com/barbie
FAQ keeper of SR_D, the german Shadowrun mailing list.
Amiga RC5 Team effort member.
---------------------------------------------------------------
Message no. 48
From: Barbie <barbie@**********.COM>
Subject: Re: Quick Eulogy for the passing of SR2
Date: Tue, 7 Jul 1998 02:04:03 +0100
At 06-Jul-98 wrote The Bookworm:



>Hmmm. What does it say about us when even though the games isnt even
>finished yet, much less avalible for sale, and we are already making house
>rules for it. :)

hmmm that we actually don`t need the new game but like to have it.
So we have something new to toy around with? :)

--

-Barbie

---------------------------------------------------------------
"I am Microsoft of Borg. The superiority of other products is irrelevant."

http://www.amigaworld.com/barbie
FAQ keeper of SR_D, the german Shadowrun mailing list.
Amiga RC5 Team effort member.
---------------------------------------------------------------
Message no. 49
From: MC23 <mc23@**********.COM>
Subject: Re: Quick Eulogy for the passing of SR2
Date: Mon, 6 Jul 1998 20:32:43 -0400
Once upon a time, K is the Symbol wrote;

>In a message dated 7/6/98 10:59:26 AM US Eastern Standard Time,
>drekhead@***.NET writes:
>
>> > - Magic Pool has been replaced by Spell Pool. This is now calulated
>> > by adding Int, Will, and Magic, divided by 2 or 3 (I think), instead of
>> > being directly related to the sorcery skill.
>>
>> Again, sounds like a reason for characters to max attributes.
>>
>In this one aspect, I don't think I would care. Sure, the magician will
>probably max out his/her Int/Will (or do you now pay for magic attribute as
>well :). In that one case, it will simply drag out the power base for the
>other attribs. Remember, never bring a knife to a Gun fight ;P

I meant all attributes. If higher Attributes makes your skills
higher or cheaper than it more than pays for itself and then some. I see
even more INT 6 Sammies in the future (Everyone for that matter). INT is
now the uber attribute. B>[#

<><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><>

"CYNIC, n. A blackguard whose faulty vision sees things as they are,
not as they ought to be."
-The Devil's Dictionary, Ambrose Bierce

I am MC23
Message no. 50
From: Machine-gun Kelly <MgkellyMP5@***.COM>
Subject: Re: Quick Eulogy for the passing of SR2
Date: Tue, 7 Jul 1998 00:33:36 EDT
In a message dated 98-07-06 14:39:05 EDT, you write:

> >But it also means we'll probably see lots of magicians learning
> >only Force 1 spells for which there isn't a resistance test involved,
> >because they don't need the Force to generate successes any
> >longer.

That might be true, but how many spells are there that don't require a
reistance test? Since the damage T# is still determined by the Force the spell
was cast at, you don't have to worry about Munchies learning every Combat
spell in the book at Force 1.

You have to worry about them wanting to start their Mage "Daughter-of-one-of-
the-guys-that-designed-the-Matrix-who's-also-Director-of-the-UCAS-FBI" with a
Rating 10 "Family-Heirloom" (BUUUUUUUUUULLLSHIIIIIIIIIIIIT) Power Focus
(Another long story) ;]

Mgkelly
Message no. 51
From: Nexx Many-Scars <Nexx3@***.COM>
Subject: Re: Quick Eulogy for the passing of SR2
Date: Tue, 7 Jul 1998 01:12:28 EDT
In a message dated 06/07/98 19:08:43 Central Daylight Time,
barbie@**********.COM writes:

> >Hmmm. What does it say about us when even though the games isnt even
> >finished yet, much less avalible for sale, and we are already making house
> >rules for it. :)
>
> hmmm that we actually don`t need the new game but like to have it.
> So we have something new to toy around with? :)

You know, with all of the complaining about the new version of SR, I see a
very AD&Dish scenario developing... where you have a bunch of die-hards who
refuse to use the new version, simply because they think its a terrible
version of the old version...

Nexx
Message no. 52
From: K is the Symbol <Ereskanti@***.COM>
Subject: Re: Quick Eulogy for the passing of SR2
Date: Tue, 7 Jul 1998 02:15:46 EDT
In a message dated 7/6/98 7:46:15 PM US Eastern Standard Time,
mc23@**********.COM writes:

> >In this one aspect, I don't think I would care. Sure, the magician will
> >probably max out his/her Int/Will (or do you now pay for magic attribute
as
> >well :). In that one case, it will simply drag out the power base for the
> >other attribs. Remember, never bring a knife to a Gun fight ;P
>
> I meant all attributes. If higher Attributes makes your skills
> higher or cheaper than it more than pays for itself and then some. I see
> even more INT 6 Sammies in the future (Everyone for that matter). INT is
> now the uber attribute. B>[#
>
I realize that, but if your group is more towards the methods that you speak
of here on the list guy, then there shouldn't be any way for them to have the
higher attributes to begin with and still actually have any usable skills or
other abilities. It is all in the trade off.

-K
Message no. 53
From: NightLife <habenir@*****.UC.EDU>
Subject: Re: Quick Eulogy for the passing of SR2
Date: Tue, 7 Jul 1998 03:33:21 -0400
At 11:37 AM 7/6/98 +0100, you wrote:
>Bull said on 4:17/6 Jul 98,...
>
>> 3. Initiative gets a slight facelift. This is one I partlicularly like
>> for various reasons <g>. Basically, the action order has been rearranged
>> slightly, so that everyone gets to go early in the round, and the
>> speedsters get all there extra actions later in the round.
>> Basically, you roll initiative. Everyone goes once, starting with the
>> highest initiative total. Once everyone has gone once, subtract 10 from
>> your rolled initiative. Everyone that still has a positive number gets to
>> go a second time, and so on. It works very well, and fixes the problem of
>> speedsters vs. magic.
>
>This sounds good, although I guess I'll have to wait and see the
>actual rules because it sounds a bit fuzzy to me the way you
>described it... Does everyone act at the same time or something?

Trust me it works a lot better. ;)

>> 4. Skills. Skills get a major overhaul as well.
>>
>> -- There are now only General and Concentrations of skills.
>> -- Active Skills were broken up a lot, especially Firearms. Instead
>> of a general firearms skill, you now need to learn Pistol, Rifle, SMG, etc.
>> Then you can Concentrate in a certain type of pistol, or whatever.
>> -- You get 10 more points per priority than you used to using the
>> Priority System before. These are used for Active SKills only.
>> -- You get your Intelligence x 5 in Knowledge Skill points to buy
>> Knowledge Skills. These cover everything from theory skills to 20th
>> century comic books.

This however is something that will be a problem. Int became what I call
the prime attibute. It's more important than all the rest no one and I mean
NO!!!! one will have less than a five in Int anymore and it still factors
too much into the cp. Skimp all that stats cause every runner need to be a
genius to run the streets and get the freebie skill points.

>Hmm... not sure about that one... I guess I'll have to wait and
>see before making a decision whether or not I like it.
>
>> -- Skills are all linked directly to an attribute now. Your
>skills
>> are also limited by your attribute ratings. They cost more to buy above
>> your attribute (both at Char Gen and during game play with karma).
>> -- The Skill Web is gone. Instead there is a list with all the
>> skills grouped with similar skills. You can default to these skills or
>> your attribute only. No more making Eti tests using your firearms :]


Definately a good move.


>> 6. Trolls/Elves are now priority C on the race Priority. Dwarves/Orks
are D.
>
>Are you sure you didn't get the races mixed up? Elves and orks
>are the common ones, trolls and dwarfs a lot less so.

This is another bs manuever. I could see priority C as in the more meta
option but now everyone can play an elf at next to no cost and get the +3
and the freebie LL vision for next to no cost. Now everyone's gonna be a
friggin faerie.

>> 8. NPCs have no threat pool any more. Instead they get normal dice pools.

>> 13. MAGIC! Honestly, it didn;t look like any really drastic changes got
>> made. Basically, they reworked the philosophy of how magic works, things

>> like how Auras interacted and that really fixed a lot of the major
problems.

The best revamping of the game I've ever seen.

>> 14. Street Gear! Lots of detailed minor street gear. Stuff like tools
>> and little stuff :] Woohoo!

Kooky. A move that they've needed to do since 1st edition.


>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
Nightlife Inc.
<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<

"I am telling you nothing - merely asking you to remember that death come in
many shades. Some are harsh and infinitely painful to look upon; others can
be
as peaceful and beautiful as the setting sun. I am an artist, and many colors
lie on upon my palette. Let me paint him a rainbow, and give you the means to
decide where it ends."

Erik from the book Phantom.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
Document Classified
<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<
Message no. 54
From: Gurth <gurth@******.NL>
Subject: Re: Quick Eulogy for the passing of SR2
Date: Tue, 7 Jul 1998 11:30:40 +0100
K is the Symbol said on 14:02/6 Jul 98,...

> > This sounds good, although I guess I'll have to wait and see the
> > actual rules because it sounds a bit fuzzy to me the way you
> > described it... Does everyone act at the same time or something?
>
> IF I understand it correctly, it means everyone get's to act first, but then
> everyone with some 'real speed' get's to react to the actions.

Which is very good in SR, since most firefights last two turns or
so. With the current rules all the sams go first and shoot up the
slower types; with these new rules at least the slow characters
get a chance to kill some street sams to even the odds a little.

> > Argh! This doesn't sound so good at all... The skill web was IMHO
> > one of the best things in SR's whole skill system, because it
> > allowed anyone to apply knowledge to related areas. This new
> > system seems to limit it a lot more...
>
> Gurth, reread Bull's paragraph closer. It still does allow for relationship
> theory to skills groups.

Yes, I realize that -- it's just that I've found the skill web to be
the best defaulting system I've seen in an RPG yet, because it
allows a way to establish the relationships between skills better
than saying "These skills are all in the same group." With the SW,
you can increase the difficulty for semi-related skills more than
for cloely-related ones.

> It just doesn't allow for skills to cross various
> "spheres of interest". IE, the usage of an Etiquette Skill to fire a
Pistol.
> I do agree, the Skill Web is nice, very nice actually. But on the
> extreme/fringe edges of it, it is scarey.

Everybody seems to forget about the arrows on the skill web. You
can't default from Firearms to Biotech even if you want to...

> > What do you mean, discussing how to set TNs? It's something
> > you can't really learn, but have to develop a feel for, isn't it? :)
>
> Yes, but helping a newer GM in setting the feel for things is helpful.

This was a JOKE, people!

> > But it also means we'll probably see lots of magicians learning
> > only Force 1 spells for which there isn't a resistance test involved,
> > because they don't need the Force to generate successes any
> > longer.
>
> Really? I don't think so. the drain tests are still being changed further
> down the road, AND taking a spell at lower force still implies the
> opponent/target has an easier time at resisting it. This is going back to the
> concept of the "Magic is a Gun" theory. Power of the Gun is equal to the
> Force of the spell. Skill at directing it is the guy pulling the trigger.

Again, I understand that, but look at Magic Fingers for example.
If you cast it at Force 1 under the current spellcasting system, it's
less likely to succeed than at Force 6. That's a reason for taking it
at a higher Force. However, if the Spell Success Test is made with
Sorcery skill, there is probably (note I say "probably" -- I haven't
seen the new rules) no reason not to take it at Force 1...

Unless of course the Force is, for instance, subtracted from the TN
of the Spel Success Test, much like a program's rating is in VR
2.0 matrix rules.

--
Gurth@******.nl - http://www.xs4all.nl/~gurth/index.html
Could you ever be alone?
-> NERPS Project Leader * ShadowRN GridSec * Unofficial Shadowrun Guru <-
-> The Plastic Warriors Page: http://www.xs4all.nl/~gurth/plastic.html <-
-> The New Character Mortuary: http://www.electricferret.com/mortuary/ <-

GC3.1: GAT/! d-(dpu) s:- !a>? C+(++)@ U P L E? W(++) N o? K- w+ O V? PS+
PE Y PGP- t(+) 5++ X++ R+++>$ tv+(++) b++@ DI? D+ G(++) e h! !r(---) y?
Incubated into the First Church of the Sqooshy Ball, 21-05-1998
Message no. 55
From: Gurth <gurth@******.NL>
Subject: Re: Quick Eulogy for the passing of SR2
Date: Tue, 7 Jul 1998 11:30:41 +0100
Barbie said on 1:59/7 Jul 98,...

> >All in all, Bull's little pep talk has made me Really excited about SR3 >:)
>
> Strangly it turned me off...

It leaves me hanging in the middle somewhere... On the one
hand I want to see the book, on the other I get the feeling they
changed too many of the basic principles of the past 9 years...

--
Gurth@******.nl - http://www.xs4all.nl/~gurth/index.html
Could you ever be alone?
-> NERPS Project Leader * ShadowRN GridSec * Unofficial Shadowrun Guru <-
-> The Plastic Warriors Page: http://www.xs4all.nl/~gurth/plastic.html <-
-> The New Character Mortuary: http://www.electricferret.com/mortuary/ <-

GC3.1: GAT/! d-(dpu) s:- !a>? C+(++)@ U P L E? W(++) N o? K- w+ O V? PS+
PE Y PGP- t(+) 5++ X++ R+++>$ tv+(++) b++@ DI? D+ G(++) e h! !r(---) y?
Incubated into the First Church of the Sqooshy Ball, 21-05-1998
Message no. 56
From: K is the Symbol <Ereskanti@***.COM>
Subject: Re: Quick Eulogy for the passing of SR2
Date: Tue, 7 Jul 1998 05:37:33 EDT
In a message dated 7/7/98 4:32:35 AM US Eastern Standard Time, gurth@******.NL
writes:

> Unless of course the Force is, for instance, subtracted from the TN
> of the Spel Success Test, much like a program's rating is in VR
> 2.0 matrix rules.
>
oooo, now wouldn't this be utterly terrifying a trick to behold....Hellblast
Force 6, "Well of course you blew up, you only had a Body of 5 you twit!!!!"
(says the GM to the player who thought he could resist anything because of his
armor)

-K
Message no. 57
From: John Dukes <dukes@*******.NET>
Subject: Re: Quick Eulogy for the passing of SR2
Date: Tue, 7 Jul 1998 09:55:13 -0500
>>> 6. Trolls/Elves are now priority C on the race Priority. Dwarves/Orks
>are D.
>
>This is another bs manuever. I could see priority C as in the more meta
>option but now everyone can play an elf at next to no cost and get the +3
>and the freebie LL vision for next to no cost. Now everyone's gonna be a
>friggin faerie.

Heh. Sounds like AD&D to me. I despise AD&D elves. I do rather like this
rule, however I'd have broken it down a bit differently. D -> orks, C->
everything else, B-> companion variants. Orks are supposed to be fairly
common, yet we dont have ANY in our gaming group. But we do have 3 or more
elves at any given time. Dwarves arent quite as common as orks, but if the
rule creates more of the crusty little bastards I'm all for it.

-Teeg
Message no. 58
From: Alfredo B Alves <dghost@****.COM>
Subject: Re: Quick Eulogy for the passing of SR2
Date: Tue, 7 Jul 1998 10:03:11 -0500
On Tue, 7 Jul 1998 11:30:40 +0100 Gurth <gurth@******.NL> writes:
>K is the Symbol said on 14:02/6 Jul 98,...
<SNIP>
>> > But it also means we'll probably see lots of magicians learning
>> > only Force 1 spells for which there isn't a resistance test
involved,
>> > because they don't need the Force to generate successes any
>> > longer.

>> Really? I don't think so. the drain tests are still being changed
further
>> down the road, AND taking a spell at lower force still implies the
>> opponent/target has an easier time at resisting it. This is going
back to >> the concept of the "Magic is a Gun" theory. Power of the Gun
is equal to
>> the Force of the spell. Skill at directing it is the guy pulling the
>> trigger.

>Again, I understand that, but look at Magic Fingers for example.
>If you cast it at Force 1 under the current spellcasting system, it's
>less likely to succeed than at Force 6. That's a reason for taking it
>at a higher Force. However, if the Spell Success Test is made with
>Sorcery skill, there is probably (note I say "probably" -- I haven't
>seen the new rules) no reason not to take it at Force 1...

Except that Magic Fingers acts as if it had a strength equal to its
force. You're more likely to see Force 1 Heal/Treat, Fashion, Makeover,
Personal Combat Sense, Invisibility, Increase Attribute/Reflexes and some
others ... If you want to encourage higher Force spells:

1) Limit sorcery to the Force of the spell :/
2) Limit Magic Pool to the Force of the spell :/
3) Smack your players around some ;) <j/k>
4) Have the spells intercepted often :)

>Unless of course the Force is, for instance, subtracted from the TN
>of the Spel Success Test, much like a program's rating is in VR
>2.0 matrix rules.
>
>--
>Gurth@******.nl -
<SNIP>

I thought about that then gave up when I tried to think of how to balance
the T#'s ... you'd have to raise them by 4 to 6 or so to keep game
balance but instead you'll throw off the curve. If the Base T# is 4, in
SR2 you roll 1 die (plus magic pool) against a target number of 4 and
have a decent to good chance of succeeding. Using Matrixesque Magic
rules, you'd roll sorcery versus a T# of 7-9 (4 plus 4 to 6 minus 1 for
Force) ... What ends up happening is that lower force spells are less
likely to succeed and very high force (6+) spells are more likely to get
obscene numbers of successes ... I'm not saying that's bad ... but you
have to be careful ... especially with those spells that are supposed to
have obscene target numbers ... :)

D.Ghost
(aka Pixel, Tantrum, and RuPixel)
"Let he who is without SIN cast the first stone"

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Message no. 59
From: John Penta <johndevil@****.COM>
Subject: Re: Quick Eulogy for the passing of SR2
Date: Tue, 7 Jul 1998 11:27:00 -0400
Bull's speech with >'s, mine w/o
Bull said:

>3. Initiative gets a slight facelift. This is one I partlicularly like
for various reasons <g>. Basically, the action order has been rearranged
slightly, so that everyone gets to go early in the round, and the
speedsters get all there extra actions later in the round.
Basically, you roll initiative. Everyone goes once, starting with
the
highest initiative total. Once everyone has gone once, subtract 10 from
your rolled initiative. Everyone that still has a positive number gets
to
go a second time, and so on. It works very well, and fixes the problem
of
speedsters vs. magic.

I'll haveta see that in practice.

Under skills:
> -- Active Skills were broken up a lot, especially Firearms. Instead
of a general firearms skill, you now need to learn Pistol, Rifle, SMG,
etc.
Then you can Concentrate in a certain type of pistol, or whatever.

EWWW! EWWW! Way too many skills. One of the things I liked about SR was
that there weren't 20 billion skills. ICK.

> -- Skills are all linked directly to an attribute now. Your
skills
are also limited by your attribute ratings. They cost more to buy above
your attribute (both at Char Gen and during game play with karma).
> -- The Skill Web is gone. Instead there is a list with all the
skills grouped with similar skills. You can default to these skills or
your attribute only. No more making Eti tests using your firearms :]

Skills limited by attributes:BAD. Skill web gone:OK, I guess.

>6. Trolls/Elves are now priority C on the race Priority. Dwarves/Orks
are D.

That makes LITTLE sense.

>7. Etiquette is now chosen like every other skill. You can buy general
Eti, or you can specialize.

I liked the old way.

>9. They modified the way you get Karma Pool. It's now 1 for every 20
instead of 1 for 10.

That is gonna HURT players, a LOT.

>11. There is a section that discusses how to set Target Numbers.

Woohoo! My players can't burn me for that now!

>12. There are several pages that explains exactly what the skill
ratings
mean. They really emphasise the fact that 5-6 is a VERY high rating for
the skill, not "average". :]

WOOHOO! No explaining! YAY!

>14. Street Gear! Lots of detailed minor street gear. Stuff like tools
and little stuff :] Woohoo!

Evil GMs, have fun! Players, BEWARE!:)

>15. Legality Ratings added

Good. VERY Good.

>17. LMGs got moved to Heavy Weapons (The newer version of personal
gunnery
skill. Gunnery now covers Vehicle Weapons).

Better fit.:)

>19. BTLs, SINs, and the various Credstick rules added

WAY overdue.

>25. Alphaware is in and is now basic gear. Price dropped to double
regular cyber. This means players now get to diecided money vs essence
when buying basic cyber.

EEK.

OK...I play (MUX) and GM(TT), so...mixed reactions. Some it is for the
worse from both perspectives, though. OTOH, some of it ROCKS from both
perspectives.....

JCP

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Message no. 60
From: "James L. Wells" <MekDaddy@***.COM>
Subject: Re: Quick Eulogy for the passing of SR2
Date: Tue, 7 Jul 1998 14:04:58 EDT
OK, being new to the list there was a lot that I missed but have picked up on
in the 2-3 hours I have been on here (I love this list already!). After 9
years of Shadowrun, I finally feel that I have the rules down and damn if the
rug isn't pulled out from under me by putting out SR3. Not that I am
complaining, well I guess I am but I am still gonna get the new one. BTW, can
you guys tell me when it is "supposed" to come out?
Now for a few comments. First off, I for one think I am going to like the
new initiative system. As a person who usually ended up playing someone who
went last, it was often like the scene out of Harlem Nights. It can be a real
pain, especially if you make a plan that revolves around the character going
last.
Second, skills. FASA is breaking down the skills? Please say it isn't so.
The skills in SR2 were elegant because they were simple. I feel that this
overcomplicates things when it really isn't necessary. Although, limiting
them may not be so bad. It can serve to keep things balanced out without the
GM having to be stingy with Karma. I played in one game for 2 years straight
and by the end of it, the GM had to drop Cheyenne Mountain on us to challenge
us. We had what we affectionately called "Karma Shields". Miss a roll?
Shields! And reroll nonsuccesses. As far as the skill web being gone, two
words: BAD IDEA.
The same goes for the karma pool as for the limiting of the skills. This
could be a good thing. See above paragraph. ;-)
I am not up on this race breakdown. Was this in a new Sourcebook I missed?
Or was it mentioned on this list?
I will be glad for the sections explaining target numbers, skill ratings, and
credstick rules. Those were always too vague for my liking. Also, detailing
street gear? Yea!!
Finally, Alpha cyberware made available. Happy, Happy, Joy, Joy!!!!

Just my
.02$

******************************************************************************
********************
Vorlons ask "Who are you?"
Shadows ask "What do you want?"
Humans ask "What the F**K is wrong with you people?!"
******************************************************************************
********************
Message no. 61
From: NightLife <habenir@*****.UC.EDU>
Subject: Re: Quick Eulogy for the passing of SR2
Date: Tue, 7 Jul 1998 18:22:42 -0400
>Heh. Sounds like AD&D to me. I despise AD&D elves.

As do I.

>I do rather like this
>rule, however I'd have broken it down a bit differently. D -> orks, C->
>everything else, B-> companion variants. Orks are supposed to be fairly
>common, yet we dont have ANY in our gaming group. But we do have 3 or more
>elves at any given time. Dwarves arent quite as common as orks, but if the
>rule creates more of the crusty little bastards I'm all for it.

Actually with a quick reworking of the companion meta's I got them to
comform to the +3 rules from Sr1. Having different costs for elves, orc,
etc...... only encourages munchkins. They were balanced before and had
their pro's and con's people played elves because of the tolkienst factor
and that they didn't have any minuses to thier stats on top of immortality.
If Fasa wanted to have more troll's and the rest they needed the same
treatment that thet elves got maybe a sourcebook devoted to them instead of
everyone else being a lackey of the IE conspiracy. A underground dwarven
kingdom would be cool. Tolieniesque I know but needed. Same for the Orc and
Trolls and book which brings them to the limelight so their more than
waling mountain with smaler brother and so they the dwarves aren't the
sidekicks to the fairies.
>-Teeg
>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
Nightlife Inc.
<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<

"I am telling you nothing - merely asking you to remember that death come in
many shades. Some are harsh and infinitely painful to look upon; others can
be
as peaceful and beautiful as the setting sun. I am an artist, and many colors
lie on upon my palette. Let me paint him a rainbow, and give you the means to
decide where it ends."

Erik from the book Phantom.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
Document Classified
<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<
Message no. 62
From: NightRain <nightrain@***.BRISNET.ORG.AU>
Subject: Re: Quick Eulogy for the passing of SR2
Date: Wed, 8 Jul 1998 10:41:05 +1000
> -----Original Message-----
> From: Shadowrun Discussion [mailto:SHADOWRN@********.ITRIBE.NET]On
> Behalf Of MC23
> Sent: Tuesday, July 07, 1998 12:30 AM
>
>
> >6. Trolls/Elves are now priority C on the race Priority.
> Dwarves/Orks
> >are D.
>
> I hope that's not the right breakdown.

Why does everyone say that? It appears to me that the idea is to
encourage people to play that races that currently get ignored, rather
than try to reflect the percentage of each metatype in the general
population.

NightRain.

----------------------------------------------------------------------
| The universe is a big place, |
| and whatever happens, you will not be missed |
----------------------------------------------------------------------

http://nightrain.home.ml.org

EMAIL : nightrain@***.brisnet.org.au
: macey@***.brisnet.org.au
ICQ : 2587947
Message no. 63
From: NightRain <nightrain@***.BRISNET.ORG.AU>
Subject: Re: Quick Eulogy for the passing of SR2
Date: Wed, 8 Jul 1998 10:41:08 +1000
> -----Original Message-----
> From: Shadowrun Discussion [mailto:SHADOWRN@********.ITRIBE.NET]On
> Behalf Of K is the Symbol
> Sent: Tuesday, July 07, 1998 4:03 AM
>
>
> Gurth, reread Bull's paragraph closer. It still does allow
> for relationship
> theory to skills groups. It just doesn't allow for skills
> to cross various
> "spheres of interest". IE, the usage of an Etiquette Skill
> to fire a Pistol.
> I do agree, the Skill Web is nice, very nice actually. But on the
> extreme/fringe edges of it, it is scarey.


How is it scary? Say it is possible to use Etiquette to fire a gun.
For one, the TN penalty would be HIDEOUS and two the GM has the right
to veto the use of any skill to default to another. I believe they
specifically mention that in the companion or something. So how is it
so scary?

NightRain.

----------------------------------------------------------------------
| The universe is a big place, |
| and whatever happens, you will not be missed |
----------------------------------------------------------------------

http://nightrain.home.ml.org

EMAIL : nightrain@***.brisnet.org.au
: macey@***.brisnet.org.au
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Message no. 64
From: NightRain <nightrain@***.BRISNET.ORG.AU>
Subject: Re: Quick Eulogy for the passing of SR2
Date: Wed, 8 Jul 1998 10:41:03 +1000
> -----Original Message-----
> From: Shadowrun Discussion [mailto:SHADOWRN@********.ITRIBE.NET]On
> Behalf Of Bull
> Sent: Monday, July 06, 1998 6:17 PM
>
>
> 4. Skills. Skills get a major overhaul as well.
>
> -- There are now only General and Concentrations of skills.
> -- Active Skills were broken up a lot, especially
> Firearms. Instead
> of a general firearms skill, you now need to learn Pistol,
> Rifle, SMG, etc.

> 7. Etiquette is now chosen like every other skill. You
> can buy general
> Eti, or you can specialize.

As my wife pointed out, to me, it seems a bit weird that they have
divided the firearms skill into several skill, all of which are fairly
heavily related, then at the same time, created a general etiquette
skill, which would cover lots of situations that are not even remotely
similar, such as Matrix and Magic.

NightRain.

----------------------------------------------------------------------
| The universe is a big place, |
| and whatever happens, you will not be missed |
----------------------------------------------------------------------

http://nightrain.home.ml.org

EMAIL : nightrain@***.brisnet.org.au
: macey@***.brisnet.org.au
ICQ : 2587947
Message no. 65
From: NightRain <nightrain@***.BRISNET.ORG.AU>
Subject: Re: Quick Eulogy for the passing of SR2
Date: Wed, 8 Jul 1998 10:41:06 +1000
> -----Original Message-----
> From: Shadowrun Discussion [mailto:SHADOWRN@********.ITRIBE.NET]On
> Behalf Of David Buehrer
> Sent: Tuesday, July 07, 1998 12:53 AM
>
>
> / But it also means we'll probably see lots of magicians learning
> / only Force 1 spells for which there isn't a resistance
> test involved,
> / because they don't need the Force to generate successes any
> / longer.
>
> Don't worry, Steve has addressed that issue quite well.

Do tell.

NightRain.

----------------------------------------------------------------------
| The universe is a big place, |
| and whatever happens, you will not be missed |
----------------------------------------------------------------------

http://nightrain.home.ml.org

EMAIL : nightrain@***.brisnet.org.au
: macey@***.brisnet.org.au
ICQ : 2587947
Message no. 66
From: Justin Bell <justin@******.NET>
Subject: Re: Quick Eulogy for the passing of SR2
Date: Tue, 7 Jul 1998 19:48:31 -0500
At 10:41 AM 7/8/98 +1000, NightRain wrote:
# As my wife pointed out, to me, it seems a bit weird that they have
# divided the firearms skill into several skill, all of which are fairly
# heavily related, then at the same time, created a general etiquette
# skill, which would cover lots of situations that are not even remotely
# similar, such as Matrix and Magic.

I am glad someone else saw this!

it is ridiculous that you can use a generalised Ettiquete skill, I mean,
hell, Street and Corp ett. arent even related, let alone matrix and magic.

yet, pulling a trigger is similar....
--
/- justin@****.mcp.com -------------------- justin@******.net -\
|Justin Bell NIC:JB3084| Time and rules are changing. |
|Simon & Schuster | Attention span is quickening. |
|Programmer | Welcome to the Information Age. |
\------------ http://www.mcp.com/people/justin/ ---------------/
Message no. 67
From: MC23 <mc23@**********.COM>
Subject: Re: Quick Eulogy for the passing of SR2
Date: Tue, 7 Jul 1998 20:51:19 -0400
Once upon a time, NightRain wrote;

>Why does everyone say that? It appears to me that the idea is to
>encourage people to play that races that currently get ignored, rather
>than try to reflect the percentage of each metatype in the general
>population.

Priorities should be set on value not how many are out there.

<><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><>

Ancient cultures believed that names held great power, personal names
more so and they were guarded very closely. To protect themselves, they
answered to another name, because if another discovered their real name,
it could be used against them.
History repeats itself.
Welcome to the Digital Age.
I am MC23
Message no. 68
From: MC23 <mc23@**********.COM>
Subject: Re: Quick Eulogy for the passing of SR2
Date: Tue, 7 Jul 1998 20:52:53 -0400
Once upon a time, NightRain wrote;

>> Don't worry, Steve has addressed that issue quite well.
>
>Do tell.
>
>NightRain.

In about a month.
Message no. 69
From: Adam J <fro@***.AB.CA>
Subject: Re: Quick Eulogy for the passing of SR2
Date: Tue, 7 Jul 1998 19:15:05 -0600
At 10:41 08/07/98 +1000, you wrote:

>As my wife pointed out, to me, it seems a bit weird that they have
>divided the firearms skill into several skill, all of which are fairly
>heavily related, then at the same time, created a general etiquette
>skill, which would cover lots of situations that are not even remotely
>similar, such as Matrix and Magic.

I agree, but my Etiquette rules were nixed >:)

One of my first house rules will be that Etiquette in itself won't be
useable, you'll have to concentrate.

The way I'm going to interperet this -- You need to know the basics of
Etiquette in general (Don't piss big people off, don't throw food), before
you can understand the more subtle dynamics of say, gang relations, or
corporate muckety-muck relations.

-Adam

-
< http://www.interware.it/users/adamj / ICQ# 2350330 / fro@***.ab.ca >
< ShadowRN Assistant Fearless Leader / TSA Co-Admin / TSS Productions >
< FreeRPG & Shadowrun Webring Admin / The Shadowrun Supplemental >
< The Entity responsible for the First Church of the Sqooshy Ball >
Message no. 70
From: Nexx Many-Scars <Nexx3@***.COM>
Subject: Re: Quick Eulogy for the passing of SR2
Date: Tue, 7 Jul 1998 23:02:27 EDT
In a message dated 07/07/98 19:51:26 Central Daylight Time, justin@******.NET
writes:

> it is ridiculous that you can use a generalised Ettiquete skill, I mean,
> hell, Street and Corp ett. arent even related, let alone matrix and magic

Or, as our PBEM is showing, trying mixing wolf ettiquette and Japanese
ettiquette...
Message no. 71
From: Alfredo B Alves <dghost@****.COM>
Subject: Re: Quick Eulogy for the passing of SR2
Date: Wed, 8 Jul 1998 00:05:01 -0500
On Mon, 6 Jul 1998 04:17:03 -0400 Bull <chaos@*****.COM> writes:
<SNIP>
>4. Skills. Skills get a major overhaul as well.
<SNIP>
> -- You get your Intelligence x 5 in Knowledge Skill points to buy
>Knowledge Skills. These cover everything from theory skills to 20th
>century comic books.
<SNIP>
>Bull

Waitasec are these points to buy nifty colorful background skills or
stuff like Computer Theory and such or both? Hmmm ... The way you said
it, seems you get to use it for both but I wanted to check ... I don't
know if I like that ... I'll have to see :)

D.Ghost (who is worried about Inteligence 6 magicians getting Magical
Theory 6 because they can ...)
(aka Pixel, Tantrum, and RuPixel)
"Let he who is without SIN cast the first stone"

_____________________________________________________________________
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Message no. 72
From: MC23 <mc23@**********.COM>
Subject: Re: Quick Eulogy for the passing of SR2
Date: Wed, 8 Jul 1998 01:18:17 -0400
Once upon a time, Alfredo B Alves wrote;

>Waitasec are these points to buy nifty colorful background skills or
>stuff like Computer Theory and such or both? Hmmm ... The way you said
>it, seems you get to use it for both but I wanted to check ... I don't
>know if I like that ... I'll have to see :)

Computer Theory hasn't been used since VR 2.0.

<><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><>

Ancient cultures believed that names held great power, personal names
more so and they were guarded very closely. To protect themselves, they
answered to another name, because if another discovered their real name,
it could be used against them.
History repeats itself.
Welcome to the Digital Age.
I am MC23
Message no. 73
From: Alfredo B Alves <dghost@****.COM>
Subject: Re: Quick Eulogy for the passing of SR2
Date: Wed, 8 Jul 1998 00:28:10 -0500
On Wed, 8 Jul 1998 01:18:17 -0400 MC23 <mc23@**********.COM> writes:
>Once upon a time, Alfredo B Alves wrote;
>>Waitasec are these points to buy nifty colorful background skills or
>>stuff like Computer Theory and such or both? Hmmm ... The way you said
>>it, seems you get to use it for both but I wanted to check ... I don't
>>know if I like that ... I'll have to see :)

> Computer Theory hasn't been used since VR 2.0.
<SNIP Sig>
> I am MC23

Hmmmmm ... Are you sure? The VR 2.0 Deckmeister actually has a computer
Theory of 4 so either that's a boo-boo or it's still used for /something/
...

D.Ghost
(aka Pixel, Tantrum, and RuPixel)
"Let he who is without SIN cast the first stone"

_____________________________________________________________________
You don't need to buy Internet access to use free Internet e-mail.
Get completely free e-mail from Juno at http://www.juno.com
Or call Juno at (800) 654-JUNO [654-5866]
Message no. 74
From: MC23 <mc23@**********.COM>
Subject: Re: Quick Eulogy for the passing of SR2
Date: Wed, 8 Jul 1998 01:50:20 -0400
Once upon a time, Alfredo B Alves wrote;

>Hmmmmm ... Are you sure? The VR 2.0 Deckmeister actually has a computer
>Theory of 4 so either that's a boo-boo or it's still used for /something/
>...

Did you see any use of that skill in VR 2.0? Computer skill does it
all. This debate was brought up last year on what's its use was after VR
2.0. The answer is none. Theory skill was there for dressing.

<><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><>

Ancient cultures believed that names held great power, personal names
more so and they were guarded very closely. To protect themselves, they
answered to another name, because if another discovered their real name,
it could be used against them.
History repeats itself.
Welcome to the Digital Age.
I am MC23
Message no. 75
From: Bull <chaos@*****.COM>
Subject: Re: Quick Eulogy for the passing of SR2
Date: Wed, 8 Jul 1998 04:29:49 -0400
At 10:41 AM 7/8/98 +1000, NightRain wrote these timeless words:
>> -----Original Message-----
>> From: Shadowrun Discussion [mailto:SHADOWRN@********.ITRIBE.NET]On
>> Behalf Of Bull
>> Sent: Monday, July 06, 1998 6:17 PM
>>
>>
>> 4. Skills. Skills get a major overhaul as well.
>>
>> -- There are now only General and Concentrations of skills.
>> -- Active Skills were broken up a lot, especially
>> Firearms. Instead
>> of a general firearms skill, you now need to learn Pistol,
>> Rifle, SMG, etc.
>
>> 7. Etiquette is now chosen like every other skill. You
>> can buy general
>> Eti, or you can specialize.
>
>As my wife pointed out, to me, it seems a bit weird that they have
>divided the firearms skill into several skill, all of which are fairly
>heavily related, then at the same time, created a general etiquette
>skill, which would cover lots of situations that are not even remotely
>similar, such as Matrix and Magic.
>
Basically because as Mike pointed out at the Con... he's fired his father
Police Revoilver numerous tiumes ata shooting range... But if he picked
up an UZI, he'd have only the most vague of ideas what to do...

Bull
--
Bull -- The Best Ork Decker You Never Met
chaos@*****.com ===== bull22@***********.com
http://www.geocities.com/Area51/Cavern/3604

=======================================================
= =
= Order is Illusion! Chaos is Bliss! Got any Fours? =
= =
Message no. 76
From: Nexx Many-Scars <Nexx3@***.COM>
Subject: Re: Quick Eulogy for the passing of SR2
Date: Wed, 8 Jul 1998 04:26:20 EDT
In a message dated 08/07/98 03:24:06 Central Daylight Time, chaos@*****.COM
writes:

> Basically because as Mike pointed out at the Con... he's fired his father
> Police Revoilver numerous tiumes ata shooting range... But if he picked
> up an UZI, he'd have only the most vague of ideas what to do...

However, by the same token, I've intereacted successfully amongst Academics
successfully for years... but I'm completely lost at a business meeting, or a
construction site.

Nexx
Message no. 77
From: Bull <chaos@*****.COM>
Subject: Re: Quick Eulogy for the passing of SR2
Date: Wed, 8 Jul 1998 04:39:07 -0400
At 07:48 PM 7/7/98 -0500, Justin Bell wrote these timeless words:
>At 10:41 AM 7/8/98 +1000, NightRain wrote:
># As my wife pointed out, to me, it seems a bit weird that they have
># divided the firearms skill into several skill, all of which are fairly
># heavily related, then at the same time, created a general etiquette
># skill, which would cover lots of situations that are not even remotely
># similar, such as Matrix and Magic.
>
>I am glad someone else saw this!
>
>it is ridiculous that you can use a generalised Ettiquete skill, I mean,
>hell, Street and Corp ett. arent even related, let alone matrix and magic.
>
Ok, I missed something in my last reply, so ignore it...

Basically this came down to the fact that the old system didn;t work well,
and nothing better could be created, so Mike opted for the most simple method.

Bull
--
Bull -- The Best Ork Decker You Never Met
chaos@*****.com ===== bull22@***********.com
http://www.geocities.com/Area51/Cavern/3604

=======================================================
= =
= Order is Illusion! Chaos is Bliss! Got any Fours? =
= =
Message no. 78
From: Bull <chaos@*****.COM>
Subject: Re: Quick Eulogy for the passing of SR2
Date: Wed, 8 Jul 1998 04:41:05 -0400
At 04:26 AM 7/8/98 EDT, Nexx Many-Scars wrote these timeless words:
>In a message dated 08/07/98 03:24:06 Central Daylight Time, chaos@*****.COM
>writes:
>
>> Basically because as Mike pointed out at the Con... he's fired his father
>> Police Revoilver numerous tiumes ata shooting range... But if he picked
>> up an UZI, he'd have only the most vague of ideas what to do...
>
>However, by the same token, I've intereacted successfully amongst Academics
>successfully for years... but I'm completely lost at a business meeting, or a
>construction site.
>
True... Catch my second post... I missed the fact that you were pointing
out this for Eti...

Like I said, it's not great, but.... Nothing better came up and this at
least stays in line with existing rules...

Bull
--
Bull -- The Best Ork Decker You Never Met
chaos@*****.com ===== bull22@***********.com
http://www.geocities.com/Area51/Cavern/3604

=======================================================
= =
= Order is Illusion! Chaos is Bliss! Got any Fours? =
= =
Message no. 79
From: Nexx Many-Scars <Nexx3@***.COM>
Subject: Re: Quick Eulogy for the passing of SR2
Date: Wed, 8 Jul 1998 04:35:33 EDT
In a message dated 08/07/98 03:34:39 Central Daylight Time, chaos@*****.COM
writes:

> >However, by the same token, I've intereacted successfully amongst Academics
> >successfully for years... but I'm completely lost at a business meeting,
or
> a
> >construction site.
> >
> True... Catch my second post... I missed the fact that you were pointing
> out this for Eti...

Yes.. I caught your second post about 10 seconds before your response to this
one came in...

Nexx
Message no. 80
From: MC23 <mc23@**********.COM>
Subject: Re: Quick Eulogy for the passing of SR2
Date: Wed, 8 Jul 1998 10:08:04 -0400
Once upon a time, Bull wrote;

>Like I said, it's not great, but.... Nothing better came up and this at
>least stays in line with existing rules...

grumble gripe.
<says things under his breathe>
spit.

<><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><>

I swear to tell
the Truth, the partial Truth, or something like the Truth.

I am MC23
Message no. 81
From: David Buehrer <dbuehrer@******.CARL.ORG>
Subject: Re: Quick Eulogy for the passing of SR2
Date: Wed, 8 Jul 1998 08:33:20 -0600
NightRain wrote:
/
/ > Behalf Of David Buehrer
/ >
/ > / But it also means we'll probably see lots of magicians learning
/ > / only Force 1 spells for which there isn't a resistance
/ > test involved,
/ > / because they don't need the Force to generate successes any
/ > / longer.
/ >
/ > Don't worry, Steve has addressed that issue quite well.
/
/ Do tell.

I'd love to, but I'm still bound by that non-disclosure contract I
signed. And I'm afraid to say anything when I don't know what changes
were made after playtesting was over.

-David
--
"If I told you, then I'd have to pull a Shadowrun against you. Sorry."
--
email: dbuehrer@******.carl.org
http://www.geocities.com/TimesSquare/1068/homepage.htm
Message no. 82
From: Iridios <iridios@*********.COM>
Subject: Re: Quick Eulogy for the passing of SR2
Date: Wed, 8 Jul 1998 11:58:19 -0400
Bull wrote:
Wed, 8 Jul 1998 04:29:49 -0400<snip>

> >> 4. Skills. Skills get a major overhaul as well.
> >>
> >> -- There are now only General and Concentrations of skills.
> >> -- Active Skills were broken up a lot, especially
> >> Firearms. Instead
> >> of a general firearms skill, you now need to learn Pistol,
> >> Rifle, SMG, etc.
> >
> >> 7. Etiquette is now chosen like every other skill. You
> >> can buy general
> >> Eti, or you can specialize.
> >
> >As my wife pointed out, to me, it seems a bit weird that they have
> >divided the firearms skill into several skill, all of which are fairly
> >heavily related, then at the same time, created a general etiquette
> >skill, which would cover lots of situations that are not even remotely
> >similar, such as Matrix and Magic.
> >
> Basically because as Mike pointed out at the Con... he's fired his father
> Police Revoilver numerous tiumes ata shooting range... But if he picked
> up an UZI, he'd have only the most vague of ideas what to do...

I'd havre to disagree here, the only weapon I've ever fired was a M-16 in the
military, yet I know that I'd be able to pick up most common assualt rifles,
shotguns, and handguns and be able to fire them in a pinch. Sure, I might not
be able to aim it as accurately at first (a + modifier to hit), but in a
firefight it would be enough to keep the heads of the enemy down a little bit
longer.

<snip sig>

--"Any science, sufficiently advanced is indistinguishable from magic."
--Arthur C. Clarke

Iridios
iridios@*********.com
http://www.geocities.com/Area51/Shadowlands/9489
http://members.theglobe.com/Iridios

-------Begin Geek Code Block------
GS d-(++) s+: a- C++ U?@>++ P L E?
W++ N o-- K- w(---) O? M-- V? PS+@
PE Y+ !PGP>++ t++@ 5+ X++@ R++@ tv
b+ DI++ !D G e+@>++++ h--- r+++ y+++
-------End Geek Code Block--------
Message no. 83
From: Erik Jameson <erikj@****.COM>
Subject: Re: Quick Eulogy for the passing of SR2
Date: Wed, 8 Jul 1998 13:30:49 -0400
At 07:48 PM 7/7/98 -0500, you wrote:

>it is ridiculous that you can use a generalised Ettiquete skill, I mean,
>hell, Street and Corp ett. arent even related, let alone matrix and magic.
>
>yet, pulling a trigger is similar....

My children, gather all ye together...

At the holy mount of GenCon, The Revelation of the Third shall come to pass
and all shall be made clear. The Third is Good, and it's Goodness shall be
made plain to all. Even what is now like mud shall be revealed to it's
true crystal clarity, and yay my children, you shall rejoice.

Erik J.

In other words, it'll make sense once you see the changed rules.
Message no. 84
From: "Droopy ." <mmanhardt@*****.NET>
Subject: Re: Quick Eulogy for the passing of SR2
Date: Wed, 8 Jul 1998 14:36:04 -0400
From: Iridios <iridios@*********.COM>
Subject: Re: Quick Eulogy for the passing of SR2

> > Basically because as Mike pointed out at the Con... he's fired his father
> > Police Revoilver numerous tiumes ata shooting range... But if he picked
> > up an UZI, he'd have only the most vague of ideas what to do...
>
> I'd havre to disagree here, the only weapon I've ever fired was a M-16 in the
> military, yet I know that I'd be able to pick up most common assualt rifles,
> shotguns, and handguns and be able to fire them in a pinch. Sure, I might not
> be able to aim it as accurately at first (a + modifier to hit), but in a
> firefight it would be enough to keep the heads of the enemy down a little bit
> longer.

Ok...Now for my opinion (its military, so I must have one) :P

I've fired most NATO and warsaw pact weapons available as of
1991 including some stuff thats not widely known about, from
pistols to dragon missle launchers.

In my experience, there is minimal difference between most
weapons. I never had problems hitting my target with anything left
or right handed once I had a few practice shots.

Some of the people I was with did have a harder time adjusting to
other weapons, but this decreased as they were exposed to more
weapons.

In the case of the M-16, the sights are tailored to the firer so
someone who hasn't fired another weapon would be unused to the
adjustments needed on fixed sights.

Once you throw in the different sighting systems (starlight scopes,
IR laser designators, etc) it gets even more interesting.


--Droopy
Message no. 85
From: Edward Poe <epoe@***.PCNETINC.COM>
Subject: Re: Quick Eulogy for the passing of SR2
Date: Wed, 8 Jul 1998 14:04:16 -0500
MC23 wrote on 8-JUL-1998,

> Did you see any use of that skill in VR 2.0? Computer skill does
it
>all. This debate was brought up last year on what's its use was after
VR
>2.0. The answer is none. Theory skill was there for dressing.

Actually, I was reading about it just this morning with regard
to some utility option - I think it had to do with writing a utility to
affect a particular brand of host (MCT, Fuchi, etc.). IIRC, the
programming test used the average of Computer and Comp Theory skills.

Hedley
Message no. 86
From: Alfredo B Alves <dghost@****.COM>
Subject: Re: Quick Eulogy for the passing of SR2
Date: Wed, 8 Jul 1998 15:18:39 -0500
On Wed, 8 Jul 1998 13:30:49 -0400 Erik Jameson <erikj@****.COM> writes:
>At 07:48 PM 7/7/98 -0500, you wrote:
>>it is ridiculous that you can use a generalised Ettiquete skill, I
mean,
>>hell, Street and Corp ett. arent even related, let alone matrix and
magic.
>>
>>yet, pulling a trigger is similar....
>
>My children, gather all ye together...
>
>At the holy mount of GenCon, The Revelation of the Third shall come to
pass
>and all shall be made clear. The Third is Good, and it's Goodness shall
be
>made plain to all. Even what is now like mud shall be revealed to it's
>true crystal clarity, and yay my children, you shall rejoice.
>
>Erik J.
>
>In other words, it'll make sense once you see the changed rules.

You Frighten Me .... :)

D.Ghost
(aka Pixel, Tantrum, and RuPixel)
"Let he who is without SIN cast the first stone"

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Message no. 87
From: Erik Jameson <erikj@****.COM>
Subject: Re: Quick Eulogy for the passing of SR2
Date: Wed, 8 Jul 1998 17:26:43 -0400
At 03:18 PM 7/8/98 -0500, you wrote:

>You Frighten Me .... :)

But why?

;-)

Erik J.

URL to go here soon...
Message no. 88
From: "Ubiratan P. Alberton" <ubiratan@**.HOMESHOPPING.COM.BR>
Subject: Re: Quick Eulogy for the passing of SR2
Date: Wed, 8 Jul 1998 19:55:38 -0300
At 04:39 08/07/98 -0400, you wrote:
>At 07:48 PM 7/7/98 -0500, Justin Bell wrote these timeless words:
>>At 10:41 AM 7/8/98 +1000, NightRain wrote:
>># As my wife pointed out, to me, it seems a bit weird that they have
>># divided the firearms skill into several skill, all of which are fairly
>># heavily related, then at the same time, created a general etiquette
>># skill, which would cover lots of situations that are not even remotely
>># similar, such as Matrix and Magic.
>>
>>I am glad someone else saw this!
>>
>>it is ridiculous that you can use a generalised Ettiquete skill, I mean,
>>hell, Street and Corp ett. arent even related, let alone matrix and magic.
>>
>Ok, I missed something in my last reply, so ignore it...
>
>Basically this came down to the fact that the old system didn;t work well,
>and nothing better could be created, so Mike opted for the most simple
method.
>
>


I tought all those you call concentrations were general skills... This
is the simplest method, not a general skill for everything...

Bira
Message no. 89
From: Wordman <wordman@*******.COM>
Subject: Re: Quick Eulogy for the passing of SR2
Date: Wed, 8 Jul 1998 22:41:37 -0400
>In a message dated 08/07/98 03:24:06 Central Daylight Time, Nexx writes:
>
>> Basically because as Mike pointed out at the Con... he's fired his father
>> Police Revoilver numerous tiumes ata shooting range... But if he picked
>> up an UZI, he'd have only the most vague of ideas what to do...
>
>However, by the same token, I've intereacted successfully amongst Academics
>successfully for years... but I'm completely lost at a business meeting, or a
>construction site.

But you still have a good idea of how to behave. (I think I'm correct in
assuming that you were making a point about etiquette being made a general
skill, here.) Etiquette learned in an academic environment doesn't stray to
far for corporate social rules. Even construction sites have similar rules
of "politeness" which are not hard to imagine based on academic etiquette.

I think etiquette splits more naturally by nationality than by occupation.

Wordman
Message no. 90
From: Robert Nesius <nesius@******.COM>
Subject: Re: Quick Eulogy for the passing of SR2
Date: Thu, 9 Jul 1998 22:29:00 -0700
At 10:16 AM -0700 7/6/98, Paul Gettle wrote:
>-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----
>
>At 11:58 AM 7/6/98 -0400, Tim wrote:
>>> 3. Initiative gets a slight facelift. This is one I partlicularly
>like
>>> for various reasons <g>. Basically, the action order has been
>rearranged
>>> slightly, so that everyone gets to go early in the round, and the
>>> speedsters get all there extra actions later in the round.

>
>Of course, this still leads to frustration for the normals who only
>get an action or two per turn, but that's always been the case, with
>no simple solutions for it.
>
>

I'm behind - sorry if this rehashes something all ready said...

Another reason I like this change is due to the dynamics of the
game that I've noticed. Specifically, when I saw "roll init,"
everyone moans and groans (oh shit, we're going to die, etc...).
At this point, everyone is focused on the game. Letting everyone
get their first action in the first phase means people get to
declare actions when they are paying attention the most - right
after they roll the dice for init. In the current system,
everyone rolls, gives me their numbers, and then the guys who
don't go for awhile sort of fade out a bit (in longish combat
sequences, which is how all SR combat sequences seem to go - longish),
and after the sammies/adepts/etc... go, I have to do a reset for
everyone.

I guess that's a minor point, but I like it.

-Rob
Message no. 91
From: wafflemiester <evamarie@**********.NET>
Subject: Re: Quick Eulogy for the passing of SR2
Date: Thu, 9 Jul 1998 17:42:59 -0500
> Re: Quick Eulogy for the passing of SR2 (John Dukes , Tue 9:55)
>
> >>> 6. Trolls/Elves are now priority C on the race Priority. Dwarves/Orks
> >are D.
> >
> >This is another bs manuever. I could see priority C as in the more meta
> >option but now everyone can play an elf at next to no cost and get the +3
> >and the freebie LL vision for next to no cost. Now everyone's gonna be a
> >friggin faerie.

Unlikely. Orks have a LOWER priority,and are basically the same
("better", if you are not a mage, IMO). Elf bonuses (and lack of
penalties) are good, but not overwhelming. Plus, there will be solid
(munchkin encouraging) reasons to play humans, afaik. Something about
the karma pool, I think.
Sign me up for a Human adept, please. :)

-Mongoose-
Message no. 92
From: NightRain <nightrain@***.BRISNET.ORG.AU>
Subject: Re: Quick Eulogy for the passing of SR2
Date: Fri, 10 Jul 1998 12:30:10 +1000
> -----Original Message-----
> From: Shadowrun Discussion [mailto:SHADOWRN@********.ITRIBE.NET]On
> Behalf Of David Buehrer
> Sent: Thursday, July 09, 1998 12:33 AM
>
>
> / > Don't worry, Steve has addressed that issue quite well.
> /
> / Do tell.
>
> I'd love to, but I'm still bound by that non-disclosure contract I
> signed. And I'm afraid to say anything when I don't know
> what changes
> were made after playtesting was over.

Steve himself answered it though, so I guess it matters not.

NightRain.

----------------------------------------------------------------------
| The universe is a big place, |
| and whatever happens, you will not be missed |
----------------------------------------------------------------------

http://nightrain.home.ml.org

EMAIL : nightrain@***.brisnet.org.au
: macey@***.brisnet.org.au
ICQ : 2587947
Message no. 93
From: NightRain <nightrain@***.BRISNET.ORG.AU>
Subject: Re: Quick Eulogy for the passing of SR2
Date: Fri, 10 Jul 1998 12:30:12 +1000
> -----Original Message-----
> From: Shadowrun Discussion [mailto:SHADOWRN@********.ITRIBE.NET]On
> Behalf Of Bull
> Sent: Wednesday, July 08, 1998 6:39 PM
>
>
> Ok, I missed something in my last reply, so ignore it...
>
> Basically this came down to the fact that the old system
> didn;t work well,
> and nothing better could be created, so Mike opted for the
> most simple method.

What didn't work about the old system? It just seems weird to me.

NightRain.

----------------------------------------------------------------------
| The universe is a big place, |
| and whatever happens, you will not be missed |
----------------------------------------------------------------------

http://nightrain.home.ml.org

EMAIL : nightrain@***.brisnet.org.au
: macey@***.brisnet.org.au
ICQ : 2587947
Message no. 94
From: K is the Symbol <Ereskanti@***.COM>
Subject: Re: Quick Eulogy for the passing of SR2
Date: Fri, 10 Jul 1998 15:54:02 EDT
In a message dated 7/10/98 9:15:58 AM US Eastern Standard Time,
nesius@******.COM writes:


<snipped commentary on the new Initiative System for SR3>
> I guess that's a minor point, but I like it.
>
actually, so do we. I playtested it last Tuesday night. It went rather well
actually. We didn't have the actions of the Astral speedfreak just making
everyone sit there and twiddle their thumbs. It let everyone have their
actions, the guys with more initiative dice did still go before everyone else
(as their end init was still higher), and as Rob pointed out in his summary,
the game was still directly in their mind. It was nice, very nice.

-K
Message no. 95
From: wafflemiester <evamarie@**********.NET>
Subject: Re: Quick Eulogy for the passing of SR2
Date: Sat, 11 Jul 1998 15:22:09 -0500
> Re: Quick Eulogy for the passing of SR2 (Robert Nesius , Fri 0:29)
>
> At 10:16 AM -0700 7/6/98, Paul Gettle wrote:
> >-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----
> >
> >At 11:58 AM 7/6/98 -0400, Tim wrote:
> >>> 3. Initiative gets a slight facelift. This is one I partlicularly
> >like
> >>> for various reasons <g>. Basically, the action order has been
> >rearranged
> >>> slightly, so that everyone gets to go early in the round, and the
> >>> speedsters get all there extra actions later in the round.
>
> Another reason I like this change is due to the dynamics of the
> game that I've noticed. Letting everyone
> get their first action in the first phase means people get to
> declare actions when they are paying attention the most - right
> after they roll the dice for init. In the current system,
> everyone rolls, gives me their numbers, and then the guys who
> don't go for awhile sort of fade out a bit (in longish combat
> sequences, which is how all SR combat sequences seem to go - longish),
> and after the sammies/adepts/etc... go, I have to do a reset for
> everyone.
>
> I guess that's a minor point, but I like it.

Its a MAJOR point if it affects the playbility and enjoyment of the
game. I agree, its aVERY good thing if you canset the scene and not
have to re-describe it when the bulk of the people finally get to act.
When playing a very fast character, I can say that the teamwork at the
start of the round and the fact that I won't feel as compelled to "get
rolling and out of everyones way", or have to hold half my actions to
optimize tactics, will improve play a lot.
That said, my first action will likely be to either shoot then run
away, or use a flash grenade to obscure the opositions sight, or some
other "cowardly" tactic that ensures I (and / or my slower companions)
can mop up with later actions... to me, that seems a very "realistic"
situation- the fast (and the smart) fight a defensive battle.

-Mongoose-
Message no. 96
From: Bull <chaos@*****.COM>
Subject: Quick Eulogy for the passing of SR2
Date: Fri, 24 Jul 1998 18:54:22 -0400
NOTE: I sent this to the mailing list earlier this month after returning
from Origins... There was a bit more, and if you catch me online (On IRC
tonight or whenever) I can give you more of a rundown...

Gld to have you back hon... We've missed ya! :]

Steve
=================================================

Well, maybe not :]

Ok, anyways, despite the enormously long weekend, I've decided to plod
along and report all of this while it's fresh in my mind. Who knows how
I'll feel tomorrow after a good nights sleep :]

Anyways, on with the show. This is what FASAMike announced at Origins
fduring the seminars about SR3. He really went into detail about
everything, so...

The details, in no particular order:

1. One of the best and biggest additions isn't a change so much as
something that was very curiously missing from the first two editions of
the game: A detailed explanation of just what shadowrunning was, and who
shadowrunners were. And there is a new piece of fiction in this area as well.

2. Examples. LOTS of examples. This is one area of the book that really
makes it "user friendly". They used examples quite frequently.

3. Initiative gets a slight facelift. This is one I partlicularly like
for various reasons <g>. Basically, the action order has been rearranged
slightly, so that everyone gets to go early in the round, and the
speedsters get all there extra actions later in the round.
Basically, you roll initiative. Everyone goes once, starting with the
highest initiative total. Once everyone has gone once, subtract 10 from
your rolled initiative. Everyone that still has a positive number gets to
go a second time, and so on. It works very well, and fixes the problem of
speedsters vs. magic.

4. Skills. Skills get a major overhaul as well.

-- There are now only General and Concentrations of skills.
-- Active Skills were broken up a lot, especially Firearms. Instead
of a general firearms skill, you now need to learn Pistol, Rifle, SMG, etc.
Then you can Concentrate in a certain type of pistol, or whatever.
-- You get 10 more points per priority than you used to using the
Priority System before. These are used for Active SKills only.
-- You get your Intelligence x 5 in Knowledge Skill points to buy
Knowledge Skills. These cover everything from theory skills to 20th
century comic books.
-- Skills are all linked directly to an attribute now. Your skills
are also limited by your attribute ratings. They cost more to buy above
your attribute (both at Char Gen and during game play with karma).
-- The Skill Web is gone. Instead there is a list with all the
skills grouped with similar skills. You can default to these skills or
your attribute only. No more making Eti tests using your firearms :]

5. Phys ADs are now known as simply Adepts. All the other magical adepts
are now known as Aspected Magicians.

6. Trolls/Elves are now priority C on the race Priority. Dwarves/Orks are D.

7. Etiquette is now chosen like every other skill. You can buy general
Eti, or you can specialize.

8. NPCs have no threat pool any more. Instead they get normal dice pools.

9. They modified the way you get Karma Pool. It's now 1 for every 20
instead of 1 for 10.

10. There will be rules for ways to burn Karma.

11. There is a section that discusses how to set Target Numbers.

12. There are several pages that explains exactly what the skill ratings
mean. They really emphasise the fact that 5-6 is a VERY high rating for
the skill, not "average". :]

13. MAGIC! Honestly, it didn;t look like any really drastic changes got
made. Basically, they reworked the philosophy of how magic works, things
like how Auras interacted and that really fixed a lot of the major problems.

-- Spellcasting is now based on your Sorcery, NOT the force. Force
still detrmines Opponents TN, the effect of the spell, etc. But you roll
your Sorc now instead of the force ewhile casting. I like this since it no
longer means that low level spells are more likely to fail :]
-- Magic Pool has been replaced by Spell Pool. This is now calulated
by adding Int, Will, and Magic, divided by 2 or 3 (I think), instead of
being directly related to the sorcery skill.
-- Spell Locks no longer exist. Instead you have Reuseable Spell
Foci (I think theya re called) that you bond, then you have to cast a spell
into it every time you activate it, and it works at the successes of that
casting. The real difference ebtween this and the locks (other than the
recastings) is that this doesn;t mystically disappear when activated, and
can easily be taken away or stolen.
-- Grounding has been almost eliminated, apparently. Not sure how
the new stuff works, but...
-- The carification of just what and where magic came from helped
explain things like Critter Powers and how they worked.

14. Street Gear! Lots of detailed minor street gear. Stuff like tools
and little stuff :] Woohoo!

15. Legality Ratings added

16. Recoil Compensation has been added to the weapons lists, so that you
know about any built in Recoil Comp.

17. LMGs got moved to Heavy Weapons (The newer version of personal gunnery
skill. Gunnery now covers Vehicle Weapons).

18. List of where weapon mounts go on guns.

19. BTLs, SINs, and the various Credstick rules added.

20. Rules for Spurs, and for using two spurs at once.

21. Boosted Reflexes and Bonelacing added.

22. Most of SSC stuff is added to basic gear lists.

23. Rules for Using Biotech with things like Medkits (Just how do these
work? :))

24. Manifestation gets renamed for Mages and Spirits. Don;t rememebr
which is which, but one gets called Materialization instead of
Manifestation, and the other remains Manifestation. This distinguishes
between what Astral mages do to get seen, and what Spirits do to move to
the physical realm.

25. Alphaware is in and is now basic gear. Price dropped to double
regular cyber. This means players now get to diecided money vs essence
when buying basic cyber.

26. Cyberlimb updates. Two different types, Synthetic limbs vs. Obvious.
Obvious are the big metal clunky kind, but they're cheaper and easier to
add mods. Synth are disguised, cost more, and are harder to add things.

27. Working with the above are guidelines for obvious cyber in public, and
how people react (Not Cyberpsychosis, I think, but more a social reaction).
This also has a section for wearing armor in public.

28. Cyberlimbs get strength boost. Instead of all cyberlimbs having a
strength 3, they start at the "average" strength for the race they are
designed for. 4 for Elves and Humans, 5 for Dwarf, 6 for Ork, and 8 for
Troll, I think.

29. Astral perception gets some modifiers, things like light, etc.

30. Overall, it looks to be a good book. The Manuscript that we got to
see looked fantastic, and it had some of the B&W art in it already. Good
stuff... :]

Well, anyways, that should answer your questions, and if not, I probably
can;t but will try.

Night all, time for me to sleep...

Bull


--
Bull -- The Best Ork Decker You Never Met
chaos@*****.com ===== bull22@***********.com
http://www.geocities.com/Area51/Cavern/3604

=======================================================
= =
= Order is Illusion! Chaos is Bliss! Got any Fours? =
= =
=======================================================

"We come from Stucco Village, where we bake bread
and play tether ball all day!"
-- A really weird scene from Trinity, the 3 AM version
Message no. 97
From: Bull <chaos@*****.COM>
Subject: Re: Quick Eulogy for the passing of SR2
Date: Fri, 24 Jul 1998 18:59:51 -0400
At 06:54 PM 7/24/98 -0400, Bull wrote these timeless words:
>NOTE: I sent this to the mailing list earlier this month after returning
>from Origins... There was a bit more, and if you catch me online (On IRC
>tonight or whenever) I can give you more of a rundown...
>
>Gld to have you back hon... We've missed ya! :]
>
>Steve
>
[SNIP LOTS]

SIGH

This was supposed to go privately to Lady J... Sorry for teh repeat mail...

Lady J: It still applies :]

Bull
--
Bull -- The Best Ork Decker You Never Met
chaos@*****.com ===== bull22@***********.com
http://www.geocities.com/Area51/Cavern/3604

=======================================================
= =
= Order is Illusion! Chaos is Bliss! Got any Fours? =
= =
=======================================================

"We come from Stucco Village, where we bake bread
and play tether ball all day!"
-- A really weird scene from Trinity, the 3 AM version

Further Reading

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