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Message no. 1
From: Adam L <runeweaver@********.NET>
Subject: [Quite OT] Rant - Teacher's Pay
Date: Wed, 5 Aug 1998 16:33:19 -0400
>What exactly do teachers deserve to be paid? I hate to burst your bubble
>but salaries are set by supply and demand not the value of the job being
>performed. If it was the other way around then secretaries would be just
>about the highest paid people around (Try finding a well running office
>without a good one) and Athletes and Entertainers would make next to
>nothing.There are not many people who can play a sport well enough to be
>a professional so the ones who can make millions. There are thousands
>and thousands of people who can be teachers so they don't make that much.
>But how much do they make really? Well let's see the averahe job has 260
>work days a year -10 holidays -5 sick personal days -10 vacation days
>leaving 235 work days a year. In most school juristiction's there are
>about190 school days a year. The average work day for full time employees
>is 8hrs without a paid lunch. The average school day is 6.5 to 7 hours
>long but I'll call it the same cause there are papers to grade, reports
>to read and tests to make up after hours (call it 1.5 to 2.5 hrs a day).
>Plus I know the teachers typically have to work 1 week before and after
>the school yeas abnd possibly another 2 weeks in the summer for an
>adittional 20 days and I'll give them the bennefit of the doubt and say
>they don't have enough sick days to matter. That means the average
>teacher works 3 weeks less that the average person. In my home State of
>Massachusetts the average annual income in the state was around $28,000.
>Starting Pay for a teacher was $27,500, The highest paid teachers made
>$46,000 (more that 15yrs teaching plus a masters degree). It seems to me
>that they were being paid pretty well.

I'm afraid you have some serious misinformation about the teaching
profession, at least those teachers who are serious about their work. As
the son of a teacher I know that the hours you mention don't even *begin*
to scratch the tip of the iceburg. If a teacher actually only had to work
the hours you mentioned, you would be quite correct, but these are the
'official' hours. That doesn't cover the *many* hours that must be spent
outside the classroom working on lesson plans and talking to parents who
are having problems with their kids. I've had quite a few teachers the only
worked the hours that you mentioned and to be perfectly blunt, the
education that I recieved in that class was next to worthless. There is an
assumption on the part of many people in eduation that if you throw enough
premade worksheets at the kids, they will learn something from it, and
anyone who was been in school recently can tell you that this is plainly
false. *Some* people can learn this way, but the majority of people do not
learn as well in this environment then they would be able to in less
structered and more discussion oriented classroom. Having a less structured
class requires more time and effort on the part of the teachers and so is
often neglected. Maybe if we made it worthwhile for our teachers to make
education interesting we would have more people who thought getting an
education was *ok*, instead of having 'em out on the streets, abusing
childern/spouses/drugs and sucking up our (for our American audience) tax
money with welfare checks.
-AdamL (Drrakn)
Message no. 2
From: Robert Watkins <robert.watkins@******.COM>
Subject: Re: [Quite OT] Rant - Teacher's Pay
Date: Thu, 6 Aug 1998 12:49:39 +1000
<rant begins>

As a side issue to Adam's post, he's right: _good_ teachers work very long
hours.

As a son of two teachers, I know the amount of work a teacher will do. In
addition to the school day (during which teachers often give up their lunch
period to do either yard duty or to be available to their students), there
are several hours a week involved in administrative duties after school
hours. These include:

* marking (a huge task, even for the easier marking subjects such as maths)
* lesson preparation (roughly half the time required for a lesson needs to
be spent in advance preparing for it)
* preparing assignments, tests, etc (this is aside from lesson preparation,
trust me)
* Parent/Teacher nights, which frequently run almost until midnight.
* extra-curricular activities, such as coaching the soccer team, or
supervising a school camp.

A poor teacher will work the bare minimum, and spend only about two hours
outside of school time on school work.

A _typical_ teacher will probably spend about 15 hours a week outside of
school time on school work.

A good teacher (and my parents were, thank you very much), will spend
between 20 and 40 hours a week outside of school time on school work.

As for pay: in the earlier seventies, teaching was invariably above national
averages in pay, for someone with only a few years experience. It was also a
respected profession. Nowdays, there isn't a country in the western world
where teachers get paid above national averages until they have several
years experience, and the teachers get almost zip in the way of respect.
They have to put up with a lot more crap than they used to (especially in
the States... sorry, but it's true), are more likely to be abused physically
(and verbally) by students, and don't get the support from the community
that they used to. Parents used to actually care about their children's
education, but nowdays they seem to think it's totally the school's
responsibility, even down to such things as manners, proper behaviour, and
(in some extreme cases) toilet training. Schools are not permitted to hold
students who don't achieve to a suitable standard back a grade, and so you
have people who fail grade after grade and still progress in the school
system.

These are symptoms of the problem. Other symptoms include the fact that it
is almost impossible to get decent quality recruits into the teaching system
these days. The need for new teachers is present, but because the
powers-that-be do not chose to reform the system, they accept sub-standard
people into the profession. As a result, you are getting teachers who are
not well-motivated, and don't put the effort in, but it must be stressed
that this was a symptom of the decling respect for and conditions of the
teaching profession, rather than a cause. (Of course, it becomes a cause for
further decline, and so on)

Finally, a challenge:
If you, personally, feel that teachers are slack, get paid too much, and
generally live a life of luxury, ask yourself why you did not choose to be a
teacher. If it's such a good thing, why not join in?

As a child of two teachers, I broke a family tradition when I did not want
to be a teacher, a tradition that had stretched back about five generations
on my mother's side. My reasoning for it was that teaching, today, is a crap
profession, gets blamed for every problem in society when it's largely the
fault of the parents of the students, and is far too dangerous.

The reason the teaching system is in such a poor state is not because of the
teachers, it is because of community attitudes and lack of importance placed
on education by society and government (which is because of the lack of
importance placed on education by society). This is true, to some degree, of
every country in the western world.

Okay, my rant's over.
</rant begins>
Message no. 3
From: John Penta <johndevil@****.COM>
Subject: Re: [Quite OT] Rant - Teacher's Pay
Date: Sun, 9 Aug 1998 12:13:07 -0400
About what Robert said about teaching being dangerous. I'm 14...I
suggested to my history teacher last year, SORTA tongue-and-cheek, that
teachers should be given .45s and concealed carry permits. To my
surprise, she agreed. So did SEVERAL other teachers, when I mentioned it
would be for the BAD school districts.

Course, detention would be dead, then.:)

John

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Message no. 4
From: Danyel N Woods <9604801@********.AC.NZ>
Subject: Re: [Quite OT] Rant - Teacher's Pay
Date: Wed, 12 Aug 1998 18:36:32 +1200
Quoth John Penta (0413 10-8-98 NZT):

>About what Robert said about teaching being dangerous. I'm 14...I
>suggested to my history teacher last year, SORTA tongue-and-cheek, that
>teachers should be given .45s and concealed carry permits. To my
>surprise, she agreed. So did SEVERAL other teachers, when I mentioned
it
>would be for the BAD school districts.
>
>Course, detention would be dead, then.:)

I don't know about that, but some gun nuts would have you believe that
it's a good idea. A firearms magazine I bought yesterday (as reference
material for SR) gave the example of two different school shootings.
The 'first' example was the one where those two kids went to school and
opened fire unopposed. Result: five dead, a dozen wounded.
The second example was a similar incident two weeks earlier, where a
civilian (perhaps a parent?) brought their pistol to the school and laid
down suppressive fire that kept the gunman too busy ducking to shoot
straight. The cops arrived about as fast as they did in the first
incident and thanked the armed civilian for his help. Result: two dead,
no wounded.
(All of the above is as I remember it from the magazine, so if anyone
got it wrong, it was them, not me. :-)

Now, I have no real convictions on the matter of firearms laws (hell,
here in New Zealand the _cops_ don't carry guns 85% of the time), but
it's food for thought, isn't it?

Danyel Woods - 9604801@********.ac.nz
'No, I'm Chaos and he's Mayhem. We're a double act.'

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