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Message no. 1
From: Alfredo B Alves <dghost@****.COM>
Subject: R2 bites... let's fix it! (Also: Attention Car enthusiasts)
Date: Fri, 8 May 1998 03:42:50 -0500
I dunno if I'll really get around to it, but I wanna fix R2. I think it
has great potential but it isn't quite "there" yet.

So, who wants to help? I'm looking fer peeps who are car
(/boat/plane/etc) savy since I'm not. I'm not sure how to do this,
private e-mail? or on RN? what are your thoughts? also, I anybody
capable of converting specifications into game terms? (ie from "braking
from x speed it went y feet" and "0-60 in x secs" get Accel?) I already
"fixed" the winches: Cost should be 1/2 load rating. Anybody else got
any fixes? (and no, going back to RBB does not count as a fix... ;)

D.Ghost
(aka Pixel, Tantrum)

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Message no. 2
From: "Ojaste,James [NCR]" <James.Ojaste@**.GC.CA>
Subject: Re: R2 bites... let's fix it! (Also: Attention Car enthusiasts)
Date: Fri, 8 May 1998 09:39:40 -0400
Alfredo B. Alves wrote:
>I dunno if I'll really get around to it, but I wanna fix R2. I think it
>has great potential but it isn't quite "there" yet.

We've been through all this before, but IMHO the biggest problem with
R2 is the editing & layout. Mod costs aren't placed where you'd expect
and several examples are just plain wrong.

>So, who wants to help? I'm looking fer peeps who are car
>(/boat/plane/etc) savy since I'm not. I'm not sure how to do this,

Well, have you asked Jon Szeto? He's pretty vehicle savvy... :-)

>private e-mail? or on RN? what are your thoughts? also, I anybody
>capable of converting specifications into game terms? (ie from "braking
>from x speed it went y feet" and "0-60 in x secs" get Accel?) I
already

This is easy. Apart from that icky "feet" thing - go Metric!

>"fixed" the winches: Cost should be 1/2 load rating. Anybody else got
>any fixes? (and no, going back to RBB does not count as a fix... ;)

Why should the winch cost change? Just switch to a higher or lower
gear ratio as the load changes - more teeth won't cost more money...

James Ojaste
Message no. 3
From: Airwasp <Airwasp@***.COM>
Subject: Re: R2 bites... let's fix it! (Also: Attention Car enthusiasts)
Date: Fri, 8 May 1998 10:23:13 EDT
In a message dated 5/8/98 8:43:46 AM !!!First Boot!!!, dghost@****.COM writes:

> I dunno if I'll really get around to it, but I wanna fix R2. I think it
> has great potential but it isn't quite "there" yet.
>
> So, who wants to help? I'm looking fer peeps who are car
> (/boat/plane/etc) savy since I'm not. I'm not sure how to do this,
> private e-mail? or on RN? what are your thoughts? also, I anybody
> capable of converting specifications into game terms? (ie from "braking
> from x speed it went y feet" and "0-60 in x secs" get Accel?) I
already
> "fixed" the winches: Cost should be 1/2 load rating. Anybody else got
> any fixes? (and no, going back to RBB does not count as a fix... ;)

IMHO, R2 is in decent shape as it is already. And with some of the ideas that
Keith have had, Jon Szeto would more than likely roll over in laughter from
some of them.

The one problem with R2 is that R2 is not a normal sourcebook. It is a
compilation of rules with some stories introducing some of the chapters.

And remember, all rules in SR are optional.

As for myself, R2 is considered one of three or four bibles for the game in
Lafayette. Without it, our game might not be thumping a war path to see who
can beat each other out in terms of toys and the like.

Mike
Message no. 4
From: Max Rible <slothman@*********.ORG>
Subject: Re: R2 bites... let's fix it! (Also: Attention Car enthusiasts)
Date: Fri, 8 May 1998 09:28:51 -0800
At 03:42 5/8/98 -0500, Alfredo B Alves insinuated:
>I dunno if I'll really get around to it, but I wanna fix R2. I think it
>has great potential but it isn't quite "there" yet.

I wouldn't say it "bites"-- the vehicle design system is actually pretty
good, and *far* better than none at all-- but it needs a lot of fixing in
places. Take a look at <http://www.amurgsval.org/shadowrun/rigging.html>; for
my stack of fixes thus far.

--
%% Max Rible %% slothman@*****.com %% http://www.amurgsval.org/~slothman/ %%
%% "Ham is good... Glowing *tattooed* ham is *bad*!" - the Tick %%
Message no. 5
From: Alexia Silverstein <alexia_silverstein@*****.COM>
Subject: Re: R2 bites... let's fix it! (Also: Attention Car enthusiasts)
Date: Fri, 8 May 1998 11:47:20 -0700
I'm sorry I don't know squat about cars 'cept I broke the last one...
But I do know I like the R1 book better 'cause it's got pictures. The
R2 book doesn't and I keep asking the other players who mostly can't
explain what some of the things in the book would look like.
So if you do come up with another Rigger book, please PLEASE!!! Add
Pictures!!!

http://www.sova.net/trish/shadowrun
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Message no. 6
From: Erik Jameson <erikj@****.COM>
Subject: Re: R2 bites... let's fix it! (Also: Attention Car enthusiasts)
Date: Fri, 8 May 1998 15:46:00 -0400
At 11:47 AM 5/8/98 -0700, you wrote:

>So if you do come up with another Rigger book, please PLEASE!!! Add
>Pictures!!!

Somehow I doubt another Rigger book is due out anytime soon.

BUT I agree that pictures of the vehicles would have been terribly cool. I
know that I've sometimes gone with the lesser vehicle (statwise) simply
because it looked so much cooler. Case in point; old friend of mine went
and has his rigger get and trick out the VW Superkombi. Apparently it fit
the number crunching he wanted to do. Myself, I think's it's horribly
ugly. Me, I'll take the Saab Dynamit anyday. No, it's not a van, no it
can't hold as much modifications (like pop-up turrets) but the Dynamit is
just too damn cool. Even with the fact, I seem to recall, it's stats
dropped with R2.

Give something sleek lines and good (but not necessarily outstanding stats)
and I'll probably pick that over the ugly stat-god.

Unfortunately, it's very difficult to do that if all you have is R2 and
can't refer back to the pictures in RBB.

Erik J.


"Forgive me FASA for I have sinned. It has been 6 days since I last played
Shadowrun and 15 days since I last bought a SRTCG booster pack."
Message no. 7
From: Alfredo B Alves <dghost@****.COM>
Subject: Re: R2 bites... let's fix it! (Also: Attention Car enthusiasts)
Date: Fri, 8 May 1998 19:49:50 -0500
>At 03:42 5/8/98 -0500, Alfredo B Alves insinuated:
>>I dunno if I'll really get around to it, but I wanna fix R2. I think
it
>>has great potential but it isn't quite "there" yet.

On Fri, 8 May 1998 09:28:51 -0800 Max Rible <slothman@*********.ORG>
writes:
>I wouldn't say it "bites"-- the vehicle design system is actually pretty
>good, and *far* better than none at all-- but it needs a lot of fixing
in
>places. Take a look at
<http://www.amurgsval.org/shadowrun/rigging.html>; for
>my stack of fixes thus far.
>
>--
>%% Max Rible %% slothman@*****.com %%
<SNIP (The tick rocks!)>

I apologize, I use words / insults differently and sometimes I forget it
comes across wrong w/o body language, etc... when *I* say something bites
or call some one a chessy insult (like you weenie ["I am not the weenie!
You are the weenie! ;) ], or zagnut) that's just me be playful. I like
R2, I just think it a few holes that need to be patched. :)

Btw, I'm still looking over your fixes...

D.Ghost
(aka Pixel, Tantrum)
"You take that one little wooden boy!" --The Tick

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Message no. 8
From: Alfredo B Alves <dghost@****.COM>
Subject: Re: R2 bites... let's fix it! (Also: Attention Car enthusiasts)
Date: Fri, 8 May 1998 19:58:35 -0500
On Fri, 8 May 1998 09:39:40 -0400 "Ojaste,James [NCR]"
<James.Ojaste@**.GC.CA> writes:
>Alfredo B. Alves wrote:
>>I dunno if I'll really get around to it, but I wanna fix R2. I think
it
>>has great potential but it isn't quite "there" yet.

>We've been through all this before, but IMHO the biggest problem with R2
is >the editing & layout. Mod costs aren't placed where you'd expect and
several >examples are just plain wrong.

>>So, who wants to help? I'm looking fer peeps who are car
>>(/boat/plane/etc) savy since I'm not. I'm not sure how to do this,

>Well, have you asked Jon Szeto? He's pretty vehicle savvy... :-)

I would think he's kinda busy ... (If he's not, it'd really rock to get
get his help :)

>>private e-mail? or on RN? what are your thoughts? also, I anybody
capable of >>converting specifications into game terms? (ie from
"braking from x speed it >>went y feet" and "0-60 in x secs" get
Accel?)
I already

>This is easy. Apart from that icky "feet" thing - go Metric!

Yah, but I live in the states so most measurements I get are prolly gonna
be in the English sys ...

>>"fixed" the winches: Cost should be 1/2 load rating. Anybody else got
>>any fixes? (and no, going back to RBB does not count as a fix... ;)

>Why should the winch cost change? Just switch to a higher or lower
>gear ratio as the load changes - more teeth won't cost more money...
>
>James Ojaste

???? That last bit I don't understand ... (I implied I wasn't vehicle
savy for a reason ...) However I based the prices on a site I found on
the net. Since 1 US$ ~= 1 nuyen (I understand this is based on comparing
McDonalds to the soy-burger joint in NAGRL), the prices came to be about
1/2 Load rating ...
The site's url is: http://www.accessoryworldinc.com/

D.Ghost
(aka Pixel, Tantrum)

_____________________________________________________________________
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Get completely free e-mail from Juno at http://www.juno.com
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Message no. 9
From: Alfredo B Alves <dghost@****.COM>
Subject: Re: R2 bites... let's fix it! (Also: Attention Car enthusiasts)
Date: Fri, 8 May 1998 19:39:49 -0500
>At 11:47 AM 5/8/98 -0700, you wrote:
>>So if you do come up with another Rigger book, please PLEASE!!! Add
>>Pictures!!!

I was thinking more along the lines of a patch to fix certain parts of
R2, but some of the R2 drones have pics (I wish more did).

On Fri, 8 May 1998 15:46:00 -0400 Erik Jameson <erikj@****.COM> writes:
>Somehow I doubt another Rigger book is due out anytime soon.
>
>BUT I agree that pictures of the vehicles would have been terribly cool.
I
>know that I've sometimes gone with the lesser vehicle (statwise) simply
>because it looked so much cooler. Case in point; old friend of mine
went
>and has his rigger get and trick out the VW Superkombi. Apparently it
fit
>the number crunching he wanted to do. Myself, I think's it's horribly
ugly. >Me, I'll take the Saab Dynamit anyday. No, it's not a van, no it
can't hold >as much modifications (like pop-up turrets) but the Dynamit
is just too damn >cool. Even with the fact, I seem to recall, it's stats
dropped with R2.
>
>Give something sleek lines and good (but not necessarily outstanding
stats)
>and I'll probably pick that over the ugly stat-god.
>
>Unfortunately, it's very difficult to do that if all you have is R2 and
>can't refer back to the pictures in RBB.
>
>Erik J.
<SNIP>

Actually R2 Beefed the hell out of the Saab Dynamit (although ya might
not of noticed it ..., and it did the same with most, if not every, other
vehicle)

What changed: Body increased by 1; Armor removed; Economy greatly
reduced; price reduced;
The big thing was the change in Speed. "what's he talking about? R1 & R2
both list the speed as 250." wrong. R1's Tops Speed was the absolute
(IIRC) top speed it go. In R2 the absolute is 1.5 times it's speed (at a
penalty to handling) so the Dynamit can go at a top speed of 375 meters
per combat phase or 450 km/hr (about 277 mph). scary, neh?

D.Ghost
(aka Pixel, Tantrum)

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Message no. 10
From: Gurth <gurth@******.NL>
Subject: Re: R2 bites... let's fix it! (Also: Attention Car enthusiasts)
Date: Sat, 9 May 1998 12:45:29 +0100
Alexia Silverstein said on 11:47/ 8 May 98...

> I'm sorry I don't know squat about cars 'cept I broke the last one...
> But I do know I like the R1 book better 'cause it's got pictures. The
> R2 book doesn't and I keep asking the other players who mostly can't
> explain what some of the things in the book would look like.
> So if you do come up with another Rigger book, please PLEASE!!! Add
> Pictures!!!

I take both with me to the game. The RBB so everyone can see what their
vehicles look like (even though some of the pictures are pretty lame IMO),
and R2 for the rules. Unfortunately it adds yet another book to the stack
I have to carry along, but unfortunately if R2 had had pictures of all the
vehicles it would have been much thicker.

--
Gurth@******.nl - http://www.xs4all.nl/~gurth/index.html - UIN5044116
Just passing time.
-> NERPS Project Leader * ShadowRN GridSec * Unofficial Shadowrun Guru <-
-> The Plastic Warriors Page: http://www.xs4all.nl/~gurth/plastic.html <-
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Message no. 11
From: Barbie <barbie@**********.COM>
Subject: Re: R2 bites... let's fix it! (Also: Attention Car enthusiasts)
Date: Mon, 11 May 1998 01:58:11 +0100
At 08-Mai-98 wrote Airwasp:



>The one problem with R2 is that R2 is not a normal sourcebook. It is a
>compilation of rules with some stories introducing some of the chapters.

>And remember, all rules in SR are optional.

Exactly and thats why R2 doesn`t exists in my game at all

>As for myself, R2 is considered one of three or four bibles for the game in
>Lafayette. Without it, our game might not be thumping a war path to see who
>can beat each other out in terms of toys and the like.

I use it as table protector for my coke glass...

ahh I should shut up now...

Sorry but I H-A-T-E the book

--

Barbie
---------------------------------------------------------------
"Who needs horror movies when we have Microsoft?"
--Christine Comaford PC Week 27/9/95

http://www.amigaworld.com/barbie
FAQ keeper of SR_D, the german Shadowrun mailing list.
Amiga RC5 Team effort member.
---------------------------------------------------------------
Message no. 12
From: "Ojaste,James [NCR]" <James.Ojaste@**.GC.CA>
Subject: Re: R2 bites... let's fix it! (Also: Attention Car enthusiasts)
Date: Mon, 11 May 1998 10:34:48 -0400
Alfredo B. Alves wrote:
>>>So, who wants to help? I'm looking fer peeps who are car
>>>(/boat/plane/etc) savy since I'm not. I'm not sure how to do this,
>
>>Well, have you asked Jon Szeto? He's pretty vehicle savvy... :-)
>
>I would think he's kinda busy ... (If he's not, it'd really rock to get
>get his help :)

Well, if you don't ask...

>>>private e-mail? or on RN? what are your thoughts? also, I anybody
>capable of >>converting specifications into game terms? (ie from
>"braking from x speed it >>went y feet" and "0-60 in x secs"
get Accel?)
>I already
>
>>This is easy. Apart from that icky "feet" thing - go Metric!
>
>Yah, but I live in the states so most measurements I get are prolly gonna
>be in the English sys ...

Well, R2 is in metric so you might as well convert those
measurements... :-)

>>>"fixed" the winches: Cost should be 1/2 load rating. Anybody else
got
>>>any fixes? (and no, going back to RBB does not count as a fix... ;)
>
>>Why should the winch cost change? Just switch to a higher or lower
>>gear ratio as the load changes - more teeth won't cost more money...
>
>???? That last bit I don't understand ... (I implied I wasn't vehicle
>savy for a reason ...) However I based the prices on a site I found on

Well, if you want a given motor to be able to pull more weight, you
can trade off torque for RPMs. Think of a bicycle chain - you can
only pedal so hard, but you can turn that constant energy source into
high torque (low gear for going up hills, which is basically a higher
load) or into high RPMs (high gear for going flat or downhill - a
much lower load). So the only things that you have to worry about
changing are how strong the cable is and how strong the mount is,
but cable is cheap, and so are bolts. So we can pretty much ignore
them...

>the net. Since 1 US$ ~= 1 nuyen (I understand this is based on comparing

$1 US is about 0.5Y, IIRC - I think it's listed in Denver...

>McDonalds to the soy-burger joint in NAGRL), the prices came to be about
>1/2 Load rating ...
>The site's url is: http://www.accessoryworldinc.com/

I don't see how you got Cost = 1/2 Load from that - I took a look
at the truck winches, and you can basically double the load for
$100-150. 100Y would be 0.1 DP per doubling... Not significant. :-)

James Ojaste
Message no. 13
From: Alfredo B Alves <dghost@****.COM>
Subject: Re: R2 bites... let's fix it! (Also: Attention Car enthusiasts)
Date: Mon, 11 May 1998 10:05:29 -0500
On Mon, 11 May 1998 10:34:48 -0400 "Ojaste,James [NCR]"
<James.Ojaste@**.GC.CA> writes:
>Alfredo B. Alves wrote:
>>>>So, who wants to help? I'm looking fer peeps who are car
>>>>(/boat/plane/etc) savy since I'm not. I'm not sure how to do this,
>>
>>>Well, have you asked Jon Szeto? He's pretty vehicle savvy... :-)
>>
>>I would think he's kinda busy ... (If he's not, it'd really rock to
>get
>>get his help :)
>
>Well, if you don't ask...

I did ask about the winches and he the R2 was as he intended it (although
I think he suggested substituting load for sqrt of load .... can't
remember :)

>>>>private e-mail? or on RN? what are your thoughts? also, I anybody
capable >>>>of converting specifications into game terms? (ie from
"braking from x >>>>speed it >>went y feet" and "0-60 in
x secs" get
Accel?) I already

>>>This is easy. Apart from that icky "feet" thing - go Metric!

>>Yah, but I live in the states so most measurements I get are prolly
gonna
>>be in the English sys ...

>Well, R2 is in metric so you might as well convert those
>measurements... :-)

Yuppers, I was planning on it but I don't like it I was hoping to find
someone who was good at converting ... Oh well I'll setup a Spreadsheet
or something ... :)

>>>>"fixed" the winches: Cost should be 1/2 load rating. Anybody
else
got
>>>>any fixes? (and no, going back to RBB does not count as a fix... ;)

>>>Why should the winch cost change? Just switch to a higher or lower
>>>gear ratio as the load changes - more teeth won't cost more money...

>>???? That last bit I don't understand ... (I implied I wasn't vehicle
>>savy for a reason ...) However I based the prices on a site I found on

>Well, if you want a given motor to be able to pull more weight, you
>can trade off torque for RPMs. Think of a bicycle chain - you can
>only pedal so hard, but you can turn that constant energy source into
>high torque (low gear for going up hills, which is basically a higher
>load) or into high RPMs (high gear for going flat or downhill - a
>much lower load). So the only things that you have to worry about
>changing are how strong the cable is and how strong the mount is,
>but cable is cheap, and so are bolts. So we can pretty much ignore
>them...

ah, ok in R2 terms, what would you say the "exchange reate" would be?
and would acceleration be affected?

>>the net. Since 1 US$ ~= 1 nuyen (I understand this is based on
comparing

>$1 US is about 0.5Y, IIRC - I think it's listed in Denver...

I think you are thinking of the UCAS dollar (which is 5$ = 1 nuyen)

>>McDonalds to the soy-burger joint in NAGRL), the prices came to be
about
>>1/2 Load rating ...
>>The site's url is: http://www.accessoryworldinc.com/

>I don't see how you got Cost = 1/2 Load from that - I took a look
>at the truck winches, and you can basically double the load for
>$100-150. 100Y would be 0.1 DP per doubling... Not significant. :-)
>
>James Ojaste

100Y P not .1 ... and I set up a chart of the different winches on
that site and compared their prices to the Load rating (Load=1/2 stall
rating) and on average the ratio came to about $1/1 nuyen yeilds 2 points
of load (I think for one winch, it was actual 3 points of load per
dollar/nuyen)

D.Ghost
(aka Pixel, Tantrum)

_____________________________________________________________________
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Message no. 14
From: "Ojaste,James [NCR]" <James.Ojaste@**.GC.CA>
Subject: Re: R2 bites... let's fix it! (Also: Attention Car enthusiasts)
Date: Mon, 11 May 1998 11:33:28 -0400
Alfredo B. Alves wrote:
>>>>Why should the winch cost change? Just switch to a higher or lower
>>>>gear ratio as the load changes - more teeth won't cost more money...
>>Well, if you want a given motor to be able to pull more weight, you
>>can trade off torque for RPMs. Think of a bicycle chain - you can
>>only pedal so hard, but you can turn that constant energy source into
>>high torque (low gear for going up hills, which is basically a higher
>>load) or into high RPMs (high gear for going flat or downhill - a
>>much lower load). So the only things that you have to worry about
>>changing are how strong the cable is and how strong the mount is,
>>but cable is cheap, and so are bolts. So we can pretty much ignore
>>them...
>
>ah, ok in R2 terms, what would you say the "exchange reate" would be?
>and would acceleration be affected?

It should be whatever ratio you want - just keep in mind it's a ratio.
So you can pull twice the load at half the speed etc.

>>>the net. Since 1 US$ ~= 1 nuyen (I understand this is based on
>comparing
>
>>$1 US is about 0.5Y, IIRC - I think it's listed in Denver...
>
>I think you are thinking of the UCAS dollar (which is 5$ = 1 nuyen)

Doh! Yeah... *hangs head in shame*

>>>McDonalds to the soy-burger joint in NAGRL), the prices came to be
>about
>>>1/2 Load rating ...
>>>The site's url is: http://www.accessoryworldinc.com/
>
>>I don't see how you got Cost = 1/2 Load from that - I took a look
>>at the truck winches, and you can basically double the load for
>>$100-150. 100Y would be 0.1 DP per doubling... Not significant. :-)
>
>100Y P not .1 ... and I set up a chart of the different winches on

Argh! Alright! That does it! I need a math copro. :-P

>that site and compared their prices to the Load rating (Load=1/2 stall
>rating) and on average the ratio came to about $1/1 nuyen yeilds 2 points
>of load (I think for one winch, it was actual 3 points of load per
>dollar/nuyen)

Alright, let's take another look:
Model Stall Load Cost Cost/Stall Load
ATV Winches:
T1500 885kg $200 $0.23/kg
T2000 ???kg $260 ?
Trailer Winches:
S2500 1400kg $400 $0.29/kg
S3500 1850kg $450 $0.24/kg
S4500 2300kg $500 $0.22/kg
Truck Winches:
S6000 3000kg $760 $0.25/kg
S9000 5400kg $860 $0.16/kg
X6 3000kg $650 $0.22/kg
X9 5400kg $760 $0.14/kg

Now, R2 has winches costing 1DP/kg of winch load rating. If the load
rating is half the stall load rating (I'll trust you on that), the
cost per kg above should be doubled, leading to a cost of $0.28/kg
up to $0.58/kg. I'd say that the DP cost is too high, yeah...

I could see extra DP being charged for mounting, designing the frame
to support the weight (you can get winches for cars and bikes, for
instance), etc. 1DP/kg still seems a little high, though...

James Ojaste

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