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Message no. 1
From: Patrick Goodman <remo@***.NET>
Subject: R2 Robotics/Exoskeleton question
Date: Fri, 7 Aug 1998 12:15:20 -0500
Don't have RIGGER 2 at hand at the moment; if someone does, or knows
this off the top of their head, I'd appreciate it.

A character is paralyzed from the waist down. He's magically active, so
doesn't want to get cyberlegs. He's not too wild about a wheelchair.
Do the robotics rules in R2, or anywhere else for that matter, cover
some kind of exoskeleton that this guy could wear to enable him to walk
around? I mean, I know he's not going to be winning any marathons, but
basic mobility is what we're after. (And no, I've not worked out how
he'd control this doo-dad, since I don't even know if it's something
that can be done or not. I don't see a whole lot of ways around him
losing at least a point from his magic rating, but I'd like to try.)

---
(>) Texas 2-Step
El Paso: Never surrender. Never forget. Never forgive.
Message no. 2
From: "Frank Pelletier (Trinity)" <jeanpell@****.QC.CA>
Subject: Re: R2 Robotics/Exoskeleton question
Date: Fri, 7 Aug 1998 13:26:13 -0400
Patrick Goodman <remo@***.NET> once wrote,



>Don't have RIGGER 2 at hand at the moment; if someone does, or knows
>this off the top of their head, I'd appreciate it.
>
>A character is paralyzed from the waist down. He's magically active, so
>doesn't want to get cyberlegs. He's not too wild about a wheelchair.
>Do the robotics rules in R2, or anywhere else for that matter, cover
>some kind of exoskeleton that this guy could wear to enable him to walk
>around? I mean, I know he's not going to be winning any marathons, but
>basic mobility is what we're after. (And no, I've not worked out how
>he'd control this doo-dad, since I don't even know if it's something
>that can be done or not. I don't see a whole lot of ways around him
>losing at least a point from his magic rating, but I'd like to try.)
>


Oh yeah, it's very feasable (sp?). Use the anthroform chassis, build
something like Forest Gump's leg support, but mechanized, and strong enough
to support his own weight. Build up some lower torso support. Use a neural
net array to control the whole thing. And, on top of that, I don't think
mobility would be affected that much, considering R2 thinks most
drones/walkers have the same mobility/strenght as human legs (and that's
acceptable, considering the progress cyberware tech has made). Of course, I
wouldn't consider this very stealthy, and I don't think you could hide it
under a pair of pants, but it would help a cripple who doesn't want any
cyber replacement (or can't get them).

Now... I need to find my R2...about 60 miles away :) But stats for this
contraption shouldn't be real hard to make.

Trinity
-------------------------------------------------------------
Frank Pelletier
Trinity@********.com, jeanpell@****.qc.ca
This message was brought to you by Digital Underground - "Sex Packets"

"Happy Happy... Joy Joy" - Ren & Stimpy
Message no. 3
From: Sommers <sommers@*****.UMICH.EDU>
Subject: Re: R2 Robotics/Exoskeleton question
Date: Fri, 7 Aug 1998 13:33:40 -0400
At 12:15 PM 8/7/98 -0500, you wrote:
>Don't have RIGGER 2 at hand at the moment; if someone does, or knows
>this off the top of their head, I'd appreciate it.
>
>A character is paralyzed from the waist down. He's magically active, so
>doesn't want to get cyberlegs. He's not too wild about a wheelchair.
>Do the robotics rules in R2, or anywhere else for that matter, cover
>some kind of exoskeleton that this guy could wear to enable him to walk
>around? I mean, I know he's not going to be winning any marathons, but
>basic mobility is what we're after. (And no, I've not worked out how
>he'd control this doo-dad, since I don't even know if it's something
>that can be done or not. I don't see a whole lot of ways around him
>losing at least a point from his magic rating, but I'd like to try.)

He's a mage and you're talking about an exo-skeleton? Why bother. Just
quicken or spell lock a levitation spell on himslef, or on his wheelchair.
He can just float above it all. Hell, I knew a guy whose character floated
around all the time and he could walk. He just like to show off!

Sommers
"What do you mean I can't trip him?"
Message no. 4
From: bryan.covington@****.COM
Subject: Re: R2 Robotics/Exoskeleton question
Date: Fri, 7 Aug 1998 13:43:25 -0400
<snip paralyzed character woes>

> Oh yeah, it's very feasable (sp?). Use the anthroform chassis, build
> something like Forest Gump's leg support, but mechanized, and strong
> enough
> to support his own weight. Build up some lower torso support. Use a
> neural
> net array to control the whole thing. And, on top of that, I don't
> think
> mobility would be affected that much, considering R2 thinks most
> drones/walkers have the same mobility/strenght as human legs (and
> that's
> acceptable, considering the progress cyberware tech has made). Of
> course, I
> wouldn't consider this very stealthy, and I don't think you could hide
> it
> under a pair of pants, but it would help a cripple who doesn't want
> any
> cyber replacement (or can't get them).
>
Granted I don't know much about R2 but seems to me, you
might use something like an external simsense rig to control it. Since
it captures all the date about how the body is moving I imagine it could
be programmed to control the walker unit.
I tend to agree that it would neither be concealable or
very stealthy and would make most athletics damn near impossible.

Another solution, which would possibly cost a wee bit of
essence but nowhere near what cyberlegs would, what about fixing him? I
am not sure how badly he was injured, but since you said he was
paralyzed I assume he wasn't cut in half. If it was a spinal injury I
think it would be possible to put a bypass in his spine to allow the
signals to get to the legs. They are experimenting with this concept
even now.
Assuming his legs are not damaged and that its a
relatively small area of the spine that was damaged you would just
remove the damaged nerves and replace them with cybernetics. Since you
aren't losing much of your body I can't see something like this costing
more than about 0.5-0.75 essence (again assuming its not a spine
replacement that is required). Granted this will cost him a magic point
but it would essentially put him back together with minimal difference
from his original state.

On an even more organic note what about bioware? If they
can grow synaptic accelerators and intercept pain from the body (pain
editor), why on earth couldn't they just regrow or replace the nerve
tissue. Hell if you use clonal nerve tissue it might not even cost
anything (body or essence wise).

All in all any one of these options would likely cost
about the same once you consider hospitalization or the custom labor to
build the exoskeleton. Any way you slice it I can't really see paralysis
as nearly the life changing event it is now.
Message no. 5
From: Patrick Goodman <remo@***.NET>
Subject: Re: R2 Robotics/Exoskeleton question
Date: Fri, 7 Aug 1998 12:45:38 -0500
>Of course, I wouldn't
>consider this very stealthy, and I don't think you could hide it
>under a pair of pants, but it would help a cripple who doesn't
>want any cyber replacement (or can't get them).

Stealth isn't a consideration. Doesn't even have to be particularly
well-hidden.

>Now... I need to find my R2...about 60 miles away :) But stats for
this
>contraption shouldn't be real hard to make.

Mine's just across town, Frank; I just didn't have it handy, and was
working on a character idea during lunch. Thanks for letting me know
this is feasible; I appreciate the fast response.

---
(>) Texas 2-Step
El Paso: Never surrender. Never forget. Never forgive.
Message no. 6
From: Patrick Goodman <remo@***.NET>
Subject: Re: R2 Robotics/Exoskeleton question
Date: Fri, 7 Aug 1998 12:47:10 -0500
>He's a mage and you're talking about an exo-skeleton? Why bother. Just
>quicken or spell lock a levitation spell on himslef, or on his
wheelchair.
>He can just float above it all. Hell, I knew a guy whose character
floated
>around all the time and he could walk. He just like to show off!

It would make his family uncomfortable to have him floating around.
Message no. 7
From: Patrick Goodman <remo@***.NET>
Subject: Re: R2 Robotics/Exoskeleton question
Date: Fri, 7 Aug 1998 13:10:52 -0500
>...what about fixing him? I
>am not sure how badly he was injured....

Did you ever see M.A.N.T.I.S.? Don't feel bad if you didn't; it came
and went in the night. It's about a guy who gets shot in the back and
paralyzed, a la Ironside or Larry Flynt, and develops an exoskeleton
suit that enables him to do all sorts of nifty things and turns himself
into a vigilante, out to solve the mystery of who shot him and why.

Same thing, only this guy's not going to be going the vigilante route.

>If it was a spinal injury I think it would be possible to put a
>bypass in his spine to allow the signals to get to the legs.
>They are experimenting with this concept even now.

So you're thinking something like the reaction enhancers in
CYBERTECHNOLOGY? It's a notion I've considered, and I'm still thinking
about it; I'm *really* early in the character design stage right now.

>On an even more organic note what about bioware?
>... Hell if you use clonal nerve tissue it might not even cost
>anything (body or essence wise).

Doesn't bioware still frag with magic? Gotta go re-read SHADOWTECH and
the healing rules and stuff again....

---
(>) Texas 2-Step
El Paso: Never surrender. Never forget. Never forgive.
Message no. 8
From: Steve Collins <einan@*********.NET>
Subject: Re: R2 Robotics/Exoskeleton question
Date: Fri, 7 Aug 1998 14:44:49 -0400
>>He's a mage and you're talking about an exo-skeleton? Why bother. Just
>>quicken or spell lock a levitation spell on himslef, or on his
>wheelchair.
>>He can just float above it all. Hell, I knew a guy whose character
>floated
>>around all the time and he could walk. He just like to show off!
>
>It would make his family uncomfortable to have him floating around.
>


"So he sleeps above the covers, 4 feet above the covers" :)
Message no. 9
From: bryan.covington@****.COM
Subject: Re: R2 Robotics/Exoskeleton question
Date: Fri, 7 Aug 1998 14:54:59 -0400
> Did you ever see M.A.N.T.I.S.? Don't feel bad if you didn't; it came
> and went in the night. It's about a guy who gets shot in the back and
> paralyzed, a la Ironside or Larry Flynt, and develops an exoskeleton
> suit that enables him to do all sorts of nifty things and turns
> himself
> into a vigilante, out to solve the mystery of who shot him and why.
>
Sadly, I did. We actually figured out what is stood for:
Man
And
Night
Together
Is
Stupid

Please don't correct me I know it isn't the real one. I
also know its a stupid acronym, but it was a stupid show.

> Same thing, only this guy's not going to be going the vigilante route.
>
Good.

> >If it was a spinal injury I think it would be possible to put a
> >bypass in his spine to allow the signals to get to the legs.
> >They are experimenting with this concept even now.
>
> So you're thinking something like the reaction enhancers in
> CYBERTECHNOLOGY? It's a notion I've considered, and I'm still
> thinking
> about it; I'm *really* early in the character design stage right now.
>
I don't own cybertech so I don't know but I would think so. IIRC
the synaptic accelerators in Shadowtech (which I do have) are basically
a bypass. Along those lines.

Ah this is for YOUR character. I thought the person was
injured in an ongoing game. In that case the outward limitations are
sort of a character development issue. Most of my suggestions were "Fix
the problem" kind of solutions which would really make him no different
than any other character with the same stats.

> >On an even more organic note what about bioware?
> >... Hell if you use clonal nerve tissue it might not even cost
> >anything (body or essence wise).
>
> Doesn't bioware still frag with magic? Gotta go re-read SHADOWTECH
> and
> the healing rules and stuff again....
>
I don't recall. But it might be more acceptable to the
character, some people have a problem with cyber but not so much with
bioware. *shrug* your pc. Just thought I'd suggest it.


I think for a "no medical solution available" scenario
(allergic to/phobic of anesthetics or something), I think the quickened
spell or spell lock might be cool. You could even research a specific
spell. Design it just for him to let him walk again. Or just have him
cast the spell whenever he REALLY needs to walk.
Message no. 10
From: Erik Jameson <erikj@****.COM>
Subject: Re: R2 Robotics/Exoskeleton question
Date: Fri, 7 Aug 1998 15:05:41 -0400
At 01:43 PM 8/7/98 -0400, you wrote:

> All in all any one of these options would likely cost
>about the same once you consider hospitalization or the custom labor to
>build the exoskeleton. Any way you slice it I can't really see paralysis
>as nearly the life changing event it is now.

For the most part, you are probably right. Spinal injuries due to trauma
are probably easier to "cure" with the right bioware and cyberware.

But that still doesn't cure damage caused by some degenerative neural
disorder or from trauma to the brain's motor center itself. I'd also think
any cybernetic/bioware "cure" would have to be done relatively soon after
injury. My friend Rick is paraplegic from an childhood accident. His legs
never really developed that much beyond what they were then, obviously out
of proportion with the rest of his body. Fixing his spine would be of
limited utility to him; not to mention all the general atrophy that occurs
in those limbs.

Not to mention all the solutions must cost a pretty penny; while Bellevue
probably has very few cripples, I'd lay odds Puyallup has more than just a
couple.

A robotic walker does have potential though and could be the choice of the
rich that can't, for whatever reason, go with invasive surgical techniques.

Erik J.


http://www.fortunecity.com/rivendell/dungeon/480/index.html
The Reality Check for a Fictional World
Message no. 11
From: Erik Jameson <erikj@****.COM>
Subject: Re: R2 Robotics/Exoskeleton question
Date: Fri, 7 Aug 1998 15:19:27 -0400
At 01:10 PM 8/7/98 -0500, you wrote:

>So you're thinking something like the reaction enhancers in
>CYBERTECHNOLOGY? It's a notion I've considered, and I'm still thinking
>about it; I'm *really* early in the character design stage right now.

Potentially very valuable; the early models may very well have been
designed as a bridge over damaged spinal tissue and not as a reaction
enhancement.

>Doesn't bioware still frag with magic? Gotta go re-read SHADOWTECH and
>the healing rules and stuff again....

Yes it does. And re-read it anyway, just out of good practice.

Erik J.


http://www.fortunecity.com/rivendell/dungeon/480/index.html
The Reality Check for a Fictional World
Message no. 12
From: bryan.covington@****.COM
Subject: Re: R2 Robotics/Exoskeleton question
Date: Fri, 7 Aug 1998 15:51:19 -0400
> > All in all any one of these options would likely cost
> >about the same once you consider hospitalization or the custom labor
> to
> >build the exoskeleton. Any way you slice it I can't really see
> paralysis
> >as nearly the life changing event it is now.
>
> For the most part, you are probably right. Spinal injuries due to
> trauma
> are probably easier to "cure" with the right bioware and cyberware.
But that still doesn't cure damage caused by some degenerative neural
disorder or from trauma to the brain's motor center itself. I'd also
think
any cybernetic/bioware "cure" would have to be done relatively soon
after
injury. My friend Rick is paraplegic from an childhood accident. His
legs
never really developed that much beyond what they were then, obviously
out
of proportion with the rest of his body. Fixing his spine would be of
limited utility to him; not to mention all the general atrophy that
occurs
in those limbs.

Oh I agree something like MS or Parkinson's (in older folk)
can't really be fixed this way at all. The way the original post was
worded combined with my relatively unenlightened knowledge of paralysis,
led me to think of someone who's spine was injured in a wreck or fall,
and could be patched up right away.

> Not to mention all the solutions must cost a pretty penny; while
> Bellevue
> probably has very few cripples, I'd lay odds Puyallup has more than
> just a
> couple.
>
This was, is, and I fear will always be the case.

> A robotic walker does have potential though and could be the choice of
> the
> rich that can't, for whatever reason, go with invasive surgical
> techniques.
>
Just a word of warning. While I don't doubt it's feasibility,
robo-walker concept still seems like an end run around your ass to get
to your elbow. I think you may end up coming up with so many odd
coincidences to explain why the person can't use some other method, it
may not be logical in the end.
Message no. 13
From: Patrick Goodman <remo@***.NET>
Subject: Re: R2 Robotics/Exoskeleton question
Date: Fri, 7 Aug 1998 13:38:23 -0500
>"So he sleeps above the covers, 4 feet above the covers" :)

"Oh, Egon, we have *got* to get these two together!"
Message no. 14
From: Spike <u5a77@*****.CS.KEELE.AC.UK>
Subject: Re: R2 Robotics/Exoskeleton question
Date: Fri, 7 Aug 1998 21:16:55 +0100
And verily, did Patrick Goodman hastily scribble thusly...
|
|>"So he sleeps above the covers, 4 feet above the covers" :)
|
|"Oh, Egon, we have *got* to get these two together!"
|

<much later>

OK, SO.... He's a dog....
--
-----------------------------------------------------------------------------
|u5a77@*****.cs.keele.ac.uk| Windows95 (noun): 32 bit extensions and a |
| | graphical shell for a 16 bit patch to an 8 bit |
| Andrew Halliwell | operating system originally coded for a 4 bit |
| Finalist in:- |microprocessor, written by a 2 bit company, that|
| Computer Science | can't stand 1 bit of competition. |
-----------------------------------------------------------------------------
|GCv3.1 GCS/EL>$ d---(dpu) s+/- a- C++ U N++ o+ K- w-- M+/++ PS+++ PE- Y t+ |
|5++ X+/++ R+ tv+ b+ D G e>PhD h/h+ !r! !y-|I can't say F**K either now! :( |
Message no. 15
From: Erik Jameson <erikj@****.COM>
Subject: Re: R2 Robotics/Exoskeleton question
Date: Fri, 7 Aug 1998 16:51:49 -0400
At 03:51 PM 8/7/98 -0400, you wrote:

> Oh I agree something like MS or Parkinson's (in older folk)
>can't really be fixed this way at all. The way the original post was
>worded combined with my relatively unenlightened knowledge of paralysis,
>led me to think of someone who's spine was injured in a wreck or fall,
>and could be patched up right away.

As did I. However, when I think of people in wheelchairs, I think of both
Rick (spinal injury) and Stephen Hawkings (MS I think). So while the
original poster (Patrick I think) may have only had people with broken
backs in mind, I expanded upon it.

> Just a word of warning. While I don't doubt it's feasibility,
>robo-walker concept still seems like an end run around your ass to get
>to your elbow. I think you may end up coming up with so many odd
>coincidences to explain why the person can't use some other method, it
>may not be logical in the end.

Agreed; I've toyed with a couple of cripples as character concepts. The
rigger with the drone wheelchair and rigged van, living vicariously through
his drones. The quadraplegic decker (otaku?) who really only "lives" in
the Matrix since that's the only place where his mind is freed from the
shackles of his body.

Interesting concepts, but they require a deeper level of understanding and
thought/depth in order for all the concepts to fit into place. Why don't
they get cybernetic/bioware replacements or "cures"? Why does someone like
this run the shadows for a living? An especially critical question for
someone like this I should think. How do the other PCs know them? How
about the neighbors? What do they think? Do they help? Do they steal
from him since he (or she I suppose) can't fight back?

So it's clearly a very interesting concept for a PC and one that's very
rarely explored. But done *right* it could be quite cool. Done wrong, it
can all fall apart.

Erik J.


http://www.fortunecity.com/rivendell/dungeon/480/index.html
The Reality Check for a Fictional World
Message no. 16
From: Patrick Goodman <remo@***.NET>
Subject: Re: R2 Robotics/Exoskeleton question
Date: Fri, 7 Aug 1998 18:09:37 -0500
>> Did you ever see M.A.N.T.I.S.? Don't feel bad if you didn't; it came
>> and went in the night.
>>
> Sadly, I did. We actually figured out what is stood
for:
> Please don't correct me I know it isn't the real one. I
>also know its a stupid acronym, but it was a stupid show.

Actually, I kinda liked the concept. The execution sucked rat juice
through a straw, but the basic notion of it kind of appealed to me.
Finally got to watch the episodes I missed when they re-ran on Sci-Fi
Channel a few months back.

>> Same thing, only this guy's not going to be going the vigilante
route.
>>
> Good.

I concur.

> Ah this is for YOUR character.

An NPC, actually; I haven't had the opportunity to actually *play* in a
long time.

>I thought the person was
>injured in an ongoing game. In that case the outward limitations are
>sort of a character development issue. Most of my suggestions were "Fix
>the problem" kind of solutions which would really make him no different
>than any other character with the same stats.

I could have worded it better, but I was in a hurry when I did the
initial message.

No, I'm bouncing some NPC concepts around, seeing which ones work, which
don't. The NPC in question doesn't have to show up for a while yet, so I
can play around with it. There's a chance that I might merge this
notion with the idea I was having about a mechanic-adept from a couple
days ago. And yes, your assessment is correct, it's mostly a character
development/role-playing aspect.

>> >On an even more organic note what about bioware?
>>
>> Doesn't bioware still frag with magic? Gotta go re-read SHADOWTECH
>> and the healing rules and stuff again....
>>
> I don't recall. But it might be more acceptable to the
>character, some people have a problem with cyber but not so much with
>bioware. *shrug* your pc. Just thought I'd suggest it.

Erik reminded me that it does, in fact, mess with magic. Still an
option, but thinking like a mage or an adept (would *I* want something
jacking around with *my* Talent if I were in that position?) is making
me keep it on a back burner. FOr now.

> I think for a "no medical solution available" scenario
>(allergic to/phobic of anesthetics or something), I think the quickened
>spell or spell lock might be cool. You could even research a specific
>spell. Design it just for him to let him walk again. Or just have him
>cast the spell whenever he REALLY needs to walk.

Yeah, but which spell? There's not one that I can see that seems
appropriate, though it shouldn't be hard to come up with reversed
versions of a couple that I saw in AWAKENINGS for at least a temporary
fix.

See, this is what happens to me when I try to branch out and try
something different as a GM...if I'd just follow my original instincts
and stick with muscle and chrome....

---
(>) Texas 2-Step
El Paso: Never surrender. Never forget. Never forgive.
Message no. 17
From: Patrick Goodman <remo@***.NET>
Subject: Re: R2 Robotics/Exoskeleton question
Date: Fri, 7 Aug 1998 18:24:39 -0500
>Not to mention all the solutions must cost a pretty penny;

Going on the notion that a synaptic accelerator is close to some kind of
bypass unit to get signals around the damaged portion of the spine,
yeah, it's not going to be cheap. A Level 1 accelerator is 75K nuyen,
and a Level 2 is 200K. The reaction enhancer approach is 60K (is that
60K per point, as I think it should be, or just a flat 60K, by the
way?). So people in the poor parts of town aren't rushing right out for
this, by any means.

>A robotic walker does have potential though and could be the choice of
the
>rich that can't, for whatever reason, go with invasive surgical
techniques.

Hmmmm...campaign idea.... <scribbles notes>

---
(>) Texas 2-Step
El Paso: Never surrender. Never forget. Never forgive.
Message no. 18
From: Patrick Goodman <remo@***.NET>
Subject: Re: R2 Robotics/Exoskeleton question
Date: Fri, 7 Aug 1998 18:31:20 -0500
>The way the original post was
>worded combined with my relatively unenlightened knowledge of
paralysis,
>led me to think of someone who's spine was injured in a wreck or fall,
>and could be patched up right away.

My fault; I probably should have been clearer.

>While I don't doubt it's feasibility, robo-walker concept still
>seems like an end run around your ass to get to your elbow.

It might well be; haven't finalized anything. I've seen several ideas
how to go with this character; just gotta decide what I think is going
to work best.

>I think you may end up coming up with so many odd coincidences
>to explain why the person can't use some other method, it may
>not be logical in the end.

Thus all the questions on the list.

---
(>) Texas 2-Step
El Paso: Never surrender. Never forget. Never forgive.
Message no. 19
From: Patrick Goodman <remo@***.NET>
Subject: Re: R2 Robotics/Exoskeleton question
Date: Fri, 7 Aug 1998 18:36:19 -0500
>However, when I think of people in wheelchairs, I think of both
>Rick (spinal injury) and Stephen Hawkings (MS I think). So while
>the original poster (Patrick I think) may have only had people
>with broken backs in mind, I expanded upon it.

Oh, I like the expansions, too. To be honest, I was even narrower in my
focus, thinking in terms of this one particular character.

Lots of snippage, but I appreciate all the input.

---
(>) Texas 2-Step
El Paso: Never surrender. Never forget. Never forgive.
Message no. 20
From: Patrick Goodman <remo@***.NET>
Subject: Re: R2 Robotics/Exoskeleton question
Date: Fri, 7 Aug 1998 20:22:49 -0500
>However, when I think of people in wheelchairs, I think of both
>Rick (spinal injury) and Stephen Hawkings (MS I think).

Dr. Hawking has ALS (amyotrophic lateral sclerosis, or Lou Gehrig's
Disease), not MS. Just a point of clarification.
Message no. 21
From: Patrick Goodman <remo@***.NET>
Subject: Re: R2 Robotics/Exoskeleton question
Date: Sat, 8 Aug 1998 00:24:07 -0500
>A robotic walker does have potential though and could be the choice
>of the rich that can't, for whatever reason, go with invasive
>surgical techniques.

Another potential application for this kind of rig occurred to me over
dinner a little while ago: Aid in post-injury physical therapy while
they're getting their strength back for cyber-surgery, and after said
surgery before they turn on the devices and begin training. Put someone in
one of these rigs, and they can walk (and a similar rig could be made for
the upper body for quadriplegic injuries), and thus participate in their own
therapy, keeping their muscles from atrophying (sp?) while waiting for
implants or whatever. Being able to do for themselves would likely help a
*lot* psychologically.

Like Findler-Man said somewhere in CYBERTECHNOLOGY: Not everything has to do
with the biz.

Whatcha think?

---
(>) Texas 2-Step
El Paso: Never surrender. Never forget. Never forgive.
Message no. 22
From: Oliver McDonald <oliver@*********.COM>
Subject: Re: R2 Robotics/Exoskeleton question
Date: Sat, 8 Aug 1998 07:28:18 +0800
On Fri, 7 Aug 1998 13:10:52 -0500, Patrick Goodman wrote:

>Doesn't bioware still frag with magic? Gotta go re-read SHADOWTECH and
>the healing rules and stuff again....

Yes. The body cost from Bioware reduces magic rateing the same as essence cost from
Cyberware.

-----------------------------------------------------------
Oliver McDonald - oliver@*********.com
http://web2.spydernet.com

Space. The Final Frontier. Let's not close it down.

Brought to you via CyberSpace, the recursive frontier.
Message no. 23
From: Randy Nickel <LrdDrgn@***.COM>
Subject: Re: R2 Robotics/Exoskeleton question
Date: Sat, 8 Aug 1998 10:46:01 EDT
In a message dated 8/8/98 7:28:43 AM Pacific Daylight Time,
oliver@*********.com writes:

> Yes. The body cost from Bioware reduces magic rateing the same as essence
> cost from
> Cyberware.
>

As a house rule we have said that every 2 points of bioware reduces the Magic
attribute by 1. The basis for this is that bioware is still meat and not
metal/plastic.

Otter
Message no. 24
From: Bai Shen <baishen@**********.COM>
Subject: Re: R2 Robotics/Exoskeleton question
Date: Sun, 9 Aug 1998 16:41:48 -0400
> A character is paralyzed from the waist down. He's magically active, so
> doesn't want to get cyberlegs. He's not too wild about a wheelchair.
> Do the robotics rules in R2, or anywhere else for that matter, cover
> some kind of exoskeleton that this guy could wear to enable him to walk
> around? I mean, I know he's not going to be winning any marathons, but
> basic mobility is what we're after. (And no, I've not worked out how
> he'd control this doo-dad, since I don't even know if it's something
> that can be done or not. I don't see a whole lot of ways around him
> losing at least a point from his magic rating, but I'd like to try.)

Dunno if anyone else has mentioned this already(my mail server crashed
yesterday), but here goes. Using the rules in R2, I'd say it's possible
to build something to allow him to move around. It wouldn't be
comfortable, an' it sure as hell wouldn't be agile, but it'd be
possible. I don't have the book with me, so I can't give the exact
design(don't remember all the names/detials), but if you e-mail me later
I'll see what I can come up with.
--
Bai Shen
Nemo Me Impune Lacessit
http://www.series2000.com/users/baishen
UIN 3543257 (Don't ask to join if you aren't going to send me anything.)
Message no. 25
From: Bai Shen <baishen@**********.COM>
Subject: Re: R2 Robotics/Exoskeleton question
Date: Sun, 9 Aug 1998 18:26:18 -0400
> > Yes. The body cost from Bioware reduces magic rateing the same as essence
> > cost from
> > Cyberware.
> As a house rule we have said that every 2 points of bioware reduces the Magic
> attribute by 1. The basis for this is that bioware is still meat and not
> metal/plastic.

IIRC, Shadowtech actually states how Bioware reduces magic. The only
thing I remember is that you add half of your BI to any TN of magic used
against you.
--
Bai Shen
Nemo Me Impune Lacessit
http://www.series2000.com/users/baishen
UIN 3543257 (Don't ask to join if you aren't going to send me anything.)
Message no. 26
From: Erik Jameson <erikj@****.COM>
Subject: Re: R2 Robotics/Exoskeleton question
Date: Mon, 10 Aug 1998 13:20:54 -0400
At 12:24 AM 8/8/98 -0500, you wrote:
>>A robotic walker does have potential though and could be the choice
>>of the rich that can't, for whatever reason, go with invasive
>>surgical techniques.
>
>Another potential application for this kind of rig occurred to me over
>dinner a little while ago: Aid in post-injury physical therapy while
>they're getting their strength back for cyber-surgery, and after said
>surgery before they turn on the devices and begin training.

Wow.

Excellent thought there Patrick. As physical therapy, this sort of thing
would be friggin' brilliant. It could easily be programmed with "perfect"
strides and motion, which would help to teach the muscles and the brain how
to walk again.

Along the same lines, I imagine you might even be able to use this concept
in certain instances of injury, such as broken bones, as a sort of moving
cast. Wouldn't be ideal in many cases, but I could see some injuries using
a robotic moving cast that would provide the necessary support while
allowing a level of mobility.

Oh, this is great. I really like this Patrick. I wish *I* had thought of it.

Erik J.


http://www.fortunecity.com/rivendell/dungeon/480/index.html
The Reality Check for a Fictional World
Message no. 27
From: Patrick Goodman <remo@***.NET>
Subject: Re: R2 Robotics/Exoskeleton question
Date: Mon, 10 Aug 1998 12:57:45 -0500
>>Another potential application for this kind of rig...
>>Aid in post-injury physical therapy....
>
>Wow.

I got a "wow" from an old-timer. This improves my outlook on the week
tremendously....

>Oh, this is great. I really like this Patrick. I wish *I* had
>thought of it.

Well, I'm fixing to be in the process of writing it up. I'll post the
thing to the list and submit it to TSS as soon as I get it done. Would
you like a copy of the specs (along with the eccentric mechanic-adept
who designed it) sent to you dierectly?

---
(>) Texas 2-Step
El Paso: Never surrender. Never forget. Never forgive.
Message no. 28
From: Erik Jameson <erikj@****.COM>
Subject: Re: R2 Robotics/Exoskeleton question
Date: Mon, 10 Aug 1998 14:32:34 -0400
At 12:57 PM 8/10/98 -0500, you wrote:
>>>Another potential application for this kind of rig...
>>>Aid in post-injury physical therapy....
>>
>>Wow.
>
>I got a "wow" from an old-timer. This improves my outlook on the week
>tremendously....

I'm only an old-timer, not a guru. ;-) Besides, a good idea is a good idea.

>Well, I'm fixing to be in the process of writing it up. I'll post the
>thing to the list and submit it to TSS as soon as I get it done. Would
>you like a copy of the specs (along with the eccentric mechanic-adept
>who designed it) sent to you dierectly?

Sure, why not. Perhaps you could post at least the rehap-frame-drone thing
to the list also?

Erik J.


http://www.fortunecity.com/rivendell/dungeon/480/index.html
The Reality Check for a Fictional World
Message no. 29
From: Patrick Goodman <remo@***.NET>
Subject: Re: R2 Robotics/Exoskeleton question
Date: Mon, 10 Aug 1998 13:50:19 -0500
>>>Wow.
>>
>>I got a "wow" from an old-timer. This improves my outlook on the
>>week tremendously....
>
>I'm only an old-timer, not a guru. ;-)

Still beats "list newbie."

>Besides, a good idea is a good idea.

Spaceba.

>>Well, I'm fixing to be in the process of writing it up. I'll post
>>the thing to the list and submit it to TSS as soon as I get it done.
>>Would you like a copy of the specs (along with the eccentric
>>mechanic-adept who designed it) sent to you dierectly?
>
>Sure, why not. Perhaps you could post at least the rehap-frame-drone
>thing to the list also?

Not a problem.

---
(>) Texas 2-Step
El Paso: Never surrender. Never forget. Never forgive.
Message no. 30
From: Bai Shen <baishen@**********.COM>
Subject: Re: R2 Robotics/Exoskeleton question
Date: Mon, 10 Aug 1998 16:20:41 -0400
> >Oh, this is great. I really like this Patrick. I wish *I* had
> >thought of it.
> Well, I'm fixing to be in the process of writing it up. I'll post the
> thing to the list and submit it to TSS as soon as I get it done. Would
> you like a copy of the specs (along with the eccentric mechanic-adept
> who designed it) sent to you dierectly?

I'll take a copy.
--
Bai Shen
Nemo Me Impune Lacessit
http://www.series2000.com/users/baishen
UIN 3543257 (Don't ask to join if you aren't going to send me anything.)
Message no. 31
From: Mike Bobroff <Airwasp@***.COM>
Subject: Re: R2 Robotics/Exoskeleton question
Date: Tue, 11 Aug 1998 10:02:17 EDT
In a message dated 8/7/98 12:15:05 PM US Eastern Standard Time, remo@***.NET
writes:

> Don't have RIGGER 2 at hand at the moment; if someone does, or knows
> this off the top of their head, I'd appreciate it.
>
> A character is paralyzed from the waist down. He's magically active, so
> doesn't want to get cyberlegs. He's not too wild about a wheelchair.
> Do the robotics rules in R2, or anywhere else for that matter, cover
> some kind of exoskeleton that this guy could wear to enable him to walk
> around? I mean, I know he's not going to be winning any marathons, but
> basic mobility is what we're after. (And no, I've not worked out how
> he'd control this doo-dad, since I don't even know if it's something
> that can be done or not. I don't see a whole lot of ways around him
> losing at least a point from his magic rating, but I'd like to try.)

Perhaps if you considered a powered wheel-chair ... you could use the wheeled
drone chassis as the basis for it ...

And, if there is no RCI or Rigger Adaption, then there may be no need for the
guy to mentally control it ...

-Herc
------ The Best Mechanic you can ever have.
Message no. 32
From: Mike Bobroff <Airwasp@***.COM>
Subject: Re: R2 Robotics/Exoskeleton question
Date: Tue, 11 Aug 1998 10:13:39 EDT
In a message dated 8/8/98 9:28:39 AM US Eastern Standard Time,
oliver@*********.com writes:

> >Doesn't bioware still frag with magic? Gotta go re-read SHADOWTECH and
> >the healing rules and stuff again....
>
> Yes. The body cost from Bioware reduces magic rateing the same as essence
> cost from
> Cyberware.

Guys, this is no more in SR3 ... as per Mike they do not have a double
negative on mages ... though I would not go happy installing bioware into a
magical pc until the new Shadowtech book comes out next year with the ruling
on bioware and things like that.

-Herc
------ The Best Mechanic you can ever have.
Message no. 33
From: Patrick Goodman <remo@***.NET>
Subject: Re: R2 Robotics/Exoskeleton question
Date: Tue, 11 Aug 1998 22:09:00 -0500
>> A character is paralyzed from the waist down. He's magically active, so
>> doesn't want to get cyberlegs. He's not too wild about a wheelchair.
>
>Perhaps if you considered a powered wheel-chair ... you could use the
wheeled
>drone chassis as the basis for it ...

Yeah, but she's not too wild about the wheelchair notion (still lots of
barriers, even in the Awakened age), and she's a little on the
eccentric-inventor side anyway, which is pretty much why she's looking to
build it. Besides, having had the notion of the thing as a rehab device, I
feel strangely compelled to complete it. Call me odd....

>And, if there is no RCI or Rigger Adaption, then there may be no need for
the
>guy to mentally control it ...

Well, hand controls might kinda defeat the purpose of the thing, IM(MOL)HO.
Is there some kind of non-invasive mental control system? Someone, can't
remember who at the moment, suggested some kind of neural induction net.
Does such a thing exist?

---
(>) Texas 2-Step
El Paso: Never surrender. Never forget. Never forgive.
Message no. 34
From: Patrick Goodman <remo@***.NET>
Subject: Re: R2 Robotics/Exoskeleton question
Date: Tue, 11 Aug 1998 22:10:21 -0500
>> >Doesn't bioware still frag with magic? Gotta go re-read SHADOWTECH
>> >and the healing rules and stuff again....
>>
>> Yes. The body cost from Bioware reduces magic rateing the same as
>> essence cost from Cyberware.
>
>Guys, this is no more in SR3 ...

Yeah, but this gizmo and the NPC in question are being built under SR2
rules, since I won't be upgrading for a little while yet. Nice to know
that, though.

---
(>) Texas 2-Step
El Paso: Never surrender. Never forget. Never forgive.
Message no. 35
From: Alfredo B Alves <dghost@****.COM>
Subject: Re: R2 Robotics/Exoskeleton question
Date: Tue, 11 Aug 1998 23:56:32 -0500
On Tue, 11 Aug 1998 22:09:00 -0500 Patrick Goodman <remo@***.NET> writes:
>>> A character is paralyzed from the waist down. He's magically
active, so
>>> doesn't want to get cyberlegs. He's not too wild about a
wheelchair.

>>Perhaps if you considered a powered wheel-chair ... you could use the
wheeled
>>drone chassis as the basis for it ...

>Yeah, but she's not too wild about the wheelchair notion (still lots of
^^^^^
The char got a sex change? you sad "he" above ... :)

>barriers, even in the Awakened age), and she's a little on the
>eccentric-inventor side anyway, which is pretty much why she's looking
to
>build it. Besides, having had the notion of the thing as a rehab
device, I
>feel strangely compelled to complete it. Call me odd....

I (semi/un)officially call you odd. :)

>>And, if there is no RCI or Rigger Adaption, then there may be no need
for the
>>guy to mentally control it ...

>Well, hand controls might kinda defeat the purpose of the thing,
IM(MOL)HO.
>Is there some kind of non-invasive mental control system? Someone,
can't
>remember who at the moment, suggested some kind of neural induction net.
>Does such a thing exist?
>
>---
<SNIP>

Electrode Net ... No stats have been given in SR1 or SR2 (maybe SR3???
:). Nifty device. It's basically a non-cybered datajack. It's
something you wear instead of implant. would be great for the char :)

D. Ghost
(aka Pixel, Tantrum, RuPixel)
o/` Trideo killed the Video Star ... o/`

_____________________________________________________________________
You don't need to buy Internet access to use free Internet e-mail.
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Message no. 36
From: Patrick Goodman <remo@***.NET>
Subject: Re: R2 Robotics/Exoskeleton question
Date: Wed, 12 Aug 1998 01:28:29 -0500
>>Yeah, but she's not too wild about the wheelchair notion....
> ^^^^^
>The char got a sex change? you sad "he" above ... :)

Character's been in flux; at first, I had two characters planned, one of
them a mechanic-adept and the other a mage. Got rid of the mage, threw some
of his baggage (the spinal damage) on her, and here we are....

>>Besides, having had the notion of the thing as a rehab device, I
>>feel strangely compelled to complete it. Call me odd....
>
>I (semi/un)officially call you odd. :)

It's good to be loved.

>>Is there some kind of non-invasive mental control system? Someone,
>>can't remember who at the moment, suggested some kind of neural
>>induction net. Does such a thing exist?
>
>Electrode Net ... No stats have been given in SR1 or SR2 (maybe SR3???
>:). Nifty device. It's basically a non-cybered datajack. It's
>something you wear instead of implant. would be great for the char :)

It would, in fact, be perfect for the character. Guess I gotta homebrew
some stats; I just wanted to make sure something like that was at least
feasible given the game mechanics.

---
(>) Texas 2-Step
El Paso: Never surrender. Never forget. Never forgive.
Message no. 37
From: Mike Bobroff <Airwasp@***.COM>
Subject: Re: R2 Robotics/Exoskeleton question
Date: Wed, 12 Aug 1998 07:38:27 EDT
In a message dated 8/11/98 10:16:47 PM US Eastern Standard Time, remo@***.NET
writes:

> >And, if there is no RCI or Rigger Adaption, then there may be no need for
> the
> >guy to mentally control it ...
>
> Well, hand controls might kinda defeat the purpose of the thing, IM(MOL)HO.
> Is there some kind of non-invasive mental control system? Someone, can't
> remember who at the moment, suggested some kind of neural induction net.
> Does such a thing exist?

Yes, it is a variation on the ASIST Playback unit for people who want to enjoy
sims and don't have datajacks at all ...

-Herc
------ The Best Mechanic you can ever have.
Message no. 38
From: David Foster <fixer@*******.TLH.FL.US>
Subject: Re: R2 Robotics/Exoskeleton question
Date: Wed, 12 Aug 1998 08:25:15 -0400
On Tue, 11 Aug 1998, Alfredo B Alves wrote:

->On Tue, 11 Aug 1998 22:09:00 -0500 Patrick Goodman <remo@***.NET> writes:
->>>> A character is paralyzed from the waist down. He's magically
->active, so
->>>> doesn't want to get cyberlegs. He's not too wild about a
->wheelchair.
->
->>>Perhaps if you considered a powered wheel-chair ... you could use the
->wheeled
->>>drone chassis as the basis for it ...
->
->>Yeah, but she's not too wild about the wheelchair notion (still lots of
-> ^^^^^
->The char got a sex change? you sad "he" above ... :)

What about creating an ally spirit in the form of a wheelchair?
3D movement plus spirit speed.... more mobility than you can imagine.

Fixer --------------} The easy I do before breakfast,
the difficult I do all day long,
the impossible only during the week,
and miracles performed on an as-needed basis....

Now tell me, what was your problem?
Message no. 39
From: Drew Curtis <dcurtis@***.NET>
Subject: Re: R2 Robotics/Exoskeleton question
Date: Wed, 12 Aug 1998 10:15:02 -0400
On Tue, 11 Aug 1998, Patrick Goodman wrote:

> >> >Doesn't bioware still frag with magic? Gotta go re-read SHADOWTECH
> >> >and the healing rules and stuff again....
> >>
> >> Yes. The body cost from Bioware reduces magic rateing the same as
> >> essence cost from Cyberware.
> >
> >Guys, this is no more in SR3 ...
>

Where does it say this in the SR3 book? Or is this a rumor?
Message no. 40
From: Patrick Goodman <remo@***.NET>
Subject: Re: R2 Robotics/Exoskeleton question
Date: Wed, 12 Aug 1998 10:35:56 -0500
>> Someone, can't remember who at the moment, suggested some kind
>> of neural induction net. Does such a thing exist?
>
>Yes, it is a variation on the ASIST Playback unit for people who want
>to enjoy sims and don't have datajacks at all ...

<smashes forehead on desk> Duh.... SHADOWBEAT is proving more and more
useful; maybe it really is the Holy Grail.

---
(>) Texas 2-Step
El Paso: Never surrender. Never forget. Never forgive.
Message no. 41
From: Patrick Goodman <remo@***.NET>
Subject: Re: R2 Robotics/Exoskeleton question
Date: Wed, 12 Aug 1998 10:40:16 -0500
>->>Yeah, but she's not too wild about the wheelchair notion....
>-> ^^^^^
>->The char got a sex change? you sad "he" above ... :)
>
>What about creating an ally spirit in the form of a wheelchair?
>3D movement plus spirit speed.... more mobility than you can imagine.

Well, Siobhan isn't a mage, she's an adept (a very specialized one). She's
not going to be doing any summoning any time soon. Interesting notion,
though.... <hastily scribbles notes>

---
(>) Texas 2-Step
El Paso: Never surrender. Never forget. Never forgive.
Message no. 42
From: K is the Symbol <Ereskanti@***.COM>
Subject: Re: R2 Robotics/Exoskeleton question
Date: Wed, 12 Aug 1998 12:56:42 EDT
In a message dated 8/12/1998 7:17:21 AM US Eastern Standard Time,
fixer@*******.TLH.FL.US writes:

> What about creating an ally spirit in the form of a wheelchair?
> 3D movement plus spirit speed.... more mobility than you can imagine.
>
>
No NO NO!!! You get a drone/wheelchair thing going, put the Ally into it as
"Inhabitation", thus improving the one attribute that R2 skunks over so badly
(Body), and the chair even gets the 3-D movement. Best of both worlds IMO...
;P

-K (who just gave away a joke..)
Message no. 43
From: Bai Shen <baishen@**********.COM>
Subject: Re: R2 Robotics/Exoskeleton question
Date: Wed, 12 Aug 1998 21:01:41 -0400
> Well, hand controls might kinda defeat the purpose of the thing, IM(MOL)HO.
> Is there some kind of non-invasive mental control system? Someone, can't
> remember who at the moment, suggested some kind of neural induction net.
> Does such a thing exist?

They not only exist, they're rather plentiful. Look in VR2 for mentions
of using an induction node(I think that's the name) to deck. Also see
references in Shadowbeat. Basically, they allow a person to perform
Datajack actions without actually having a Datajack. However, to
paraphrase Shadowbeat, experiencing Simsense through it is akin to
taking a shower wearing armor.-grin-
--
Bai Shen
Nemo Me Impune Lacessit
http://www.series2000.com/users/baishen
UIN 3543257 (Don't ask to join if you aren't going to send me anything.)

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