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Message no. 1
From: K is the Symbol <Ereskanti@***.COM>
Subject: Racial Attributes (Re: gnomes)
Date: Tue, 14 Jul 1998 13:06:54 EDT
In a message dated 7/14/98 9:06:39 AM US Eastern Standard Time, WiebkeT@**
ONLINE.DE writes:

> Is a gnome (not a dwarf) able to use a light machine pistol (for
> example)? Up to which size of weapon could he use? Also, I wonder
> if I should allow the player to give his gnome strength more than
> 3?
>
Okay, this is something that has always bothered me as well. I think part of
our problem as players is that we tend to take picture relationships
(comparing the size of one image to another), and make huge leaps of decisions
based upon such. We see that Gnome hiding (hell, he's just standing there
really) right next to the Nordic Giant in the SRComp, and figure ... "there
ain't NO way he can lift as much as the Human could, let alone an Ork" ... I
don't know, size comparisons by race are a relatively non-existent rule in SR,
with the exception of (BIG) Trolls and larger weapons like the PAC or Machine
Guns.

Even then, I'm probably forgetting stuff and remembering House Rules.

Blix, my suggestion on the idea of size of gun compared to size of character
is to use common sense. When that doesn't fail, find a rigger 2 book, use the
cost modifier for .... ah forget it, got the book...(flips some
pages)..."Adjusted Controls", cost additions to vehicles that need modified
control or seating or frame (?) for unusual (read as, non-human sized) areas.
Dwarves (Gnomes?) have a 2,500 nuyen additional cost for a car, perhaps a
tenth that for the modification of a firearms (going on a size comparison to a
firearms is relatively small, as a drone is (normally) smaller than a full
size counterpart). So perhaps an additional 250 nuyen for the modification of
a weapon for the use of the character in question.

No, as for recoil or street index mods??? Lots of details here that you
-could- accomplish.

Just use Gurth's suggestion that SR is a Cinematic Combat System, and skip
most of it. Go back to Common Sense ;)

-K
Message no. 2
From: Erik Jameson <erikj@****.COM>
Subject: Re: Racial Attributes (Re: gnomes)
Date: Tue, 14 Jul 1998 14:14:06 -0400
At 01:06 PM 7/14/98 EDT, you wrote:

>Okay, this is something that has always bothered me as well. I think part of
>our problem as players is that we tend to take picture relationships
>(comparing the size of one image to another), and make huge leaps of
decisions
>based upon such. We see that Gnome hiding (hell, he's just standing there
>really) right next to the Nordic Giant in the SRComp, and figure ... "there
>ain't NO way he can lift as much as the Human could, let alone an Ork" ... I
>don't know, size comparisons by race are a relatively non-existent rule in
SR,
>with the exception of (BIG) Trolls and larger weapons like the PAC or Machine
>Guns.

Actually, up to a certain extreme point, it should be easier for the
dwarf/gnome to lift as much as a human.

If you look at most bodybuilders and many weightlifters/powerlifters, they
tend to be on the shorter side of things; a top professional bodybuiler
averages about 5'8" or so, and anyone above 6 foot is a damn giant. It's
got to do with the mechanics and lever type actions of having shorter bones
and shorter muscle attachments.

One of the strongest men, pound for pound, is that Turkish "Pocket
Hercules" Olympic powerlifter. He's only something like 5 foot tall,
weighs something like 120 pounds, yet he can lift several times his own
weight above his head. It's actually an *advantage* to be shorter when it
comes to lifting heavy weights. Now, Pocket Hercules can't lift as much
*total* as some massive 6'8" 350 pounder, and that's where you get your
strength bonuses for orks and trolls.

It's odd and counterintuitive I agree, but it's borne out daily at your
local neighborhood gym.

So I don't see any real reason to limit a gnome to Strength 3. Give them
the same Rating 6 un-modified maximum of any other race. You could, I
suppose, increase the karma cost of raising Strength to 6, but I would
seriously allow it.

Should a gnome be able to use a Panther Assault Cannon? Well, that's
getting into an area where I would simply say to you and your players to
simply use common sense, as has been said before by others.

Erik J.



http://www.fortunecity.com/rivendell/dungeon/480/index.html
The Reality Check for a Fictional World
Message no. 3
From: Nexx Many-Scars <Nexx3@***.COM>
Subject: Re: Racial Attributes (Re: gnomes)
Date: Tue, 14 Jul 1998 16:01:45 EDT
In a message dated 98-07-14 13:08:15 EDT, you write:

> Okay, this is something that has always bothered me as well. I think part
> of
> our problem as players is that we tend to take picture relationships
> (comparing the size of one image to another), and make huge leaps of
> decisions
> based upon such. We see that Gnome hiding (hell, he's just standing there
> really) right next to the Nordic Giant in the SRComp, and figure ... "there
> ain't NO way he can lift as much as the Human could, let alone an Ork" ...
I
> don't know, size comparisons by race are a relatively non-existent rule in
> SR,
> with the exception of (BIG) Trolls and larger weapons like the PAC or
> Machine
> Guns.

One thing I remember (I don't know where from, but I think it was an SR, not
ED, book...) is that dwarves have a muscular density that rivals that of
reptiles. Now, gnomes are built lighter than normal dwarves, so they don't
have that +2 bonus to strength, but they do have a similar muscular density,
so they can get quite impressive in their strength (at least for little
squirts who barely top a meter).

Nexx
Message no. 4
From: Martin Steffens <chimerae@***.IE>
Subject: Re: Racial Attributes (Re: gnomes)
Date: Wed, 15 Jul 1998 10:22:26 +0000
and thus did Erik Jameson speak on 14 Jul 98 at 14:14:

> Actually, up to a certain extreme point, it should be easier for the
> dwarf/gnome to lift as much as a human.
>
> If you look at most bodybuilders and many weightlifters/powerlifters, they
> tend to be on the shorter side of things; a top professional bodybuiler
> averages about 5'8" or so, and anyone above 6 foot is a damn giant. It's
> got to do with the mechanics and lever type actions of having shorter bones
> and shorter muscle attachments.

You're completely right, plus the fact that if you're taller you also
have to lift your weight a lot higher than the smaller person has to
and that can really matter a lot for the last push from your chest up
to above your head.

The muscles in a human's body are not exactly set up to give a
maximum leverage in many cases. for example you could easily lift
five times as much weight with your biceps if they would be attached
close to your wrist, simply because you can then use your elbow joint
more efficiently as a hinge.
For a example of both in glorious ASCII graphics:

@**********

@**********

@= elbow joint / hinge
L= ligament of muscle
-= fore arm bone
W= weight in hands

First case the muscle has to pull with a force four times that of the
weight to keep it up while next it only has to use a force 4/3 times
that of the weight. so instead of a muscle enhancement / replacement,
get a ligament re-alignment. Should be completely essence free and
just as effective (although you might not get a quickness bonus).

> Should a gnome be able to use a Panther Assault Cannon? Well, that's
> getting into an area where I would simply say to you and your players to
> simply use common sense, as has been said before by others.

Look at the little buggers! They might be able to carry one easily,
but it would be huge to them. It would be like normal humans walking
around with a 4 metre pole (13 foot for the metrically challenged).
I would restrict the number and type of items they want to carry
around. Before you know it they will look like a walking backpack.

Martin,
(The Trivia Buff <strikes again!/ha:ha:ha>)
Message no. 5
From: Wiebke & Birger Timm <WiebkeT@********.DE>
Subject: Re: Racial Attributes (Re: gnomes)
Date: Wed, 15 Jul 1998 16:00:30 +0200
Erik Jameson wrote:

> If you look at most bodybuilders and many weightlifters/powerlifters, they
> tend to be on the shorter side of things; a top professional bodybuiler
> averages about 5'8" or so, and anyone above 6 foot is a damn giant. It's
> got to do with the mechanics and lever type actions of having shorter bones
> and shorter muscle attachments.
>
> One of the strongest men, pound for pound, is that Turkish "Pocket
> Hercules" Olympic powerlifter. He's only something like 5 foot tall,
> weighs something like 120 pounds, yet he can lift several times his own
> weight above his head. It's actually an *advantage* to be shorter when it
> comes to lifting heavy weights. Now, Pocket Hercules can't lift as much
> *total* as some massive 6'8" 350 pounder, and that's where you get your
> strength bonuses for orks and trolls.
>
> It's odd and counterintuitive I agree, but it's borne out daily at your
> local neighborhood gym.
>

Hm... how about using the metric system as I really have no idea about how much
an inch ro a foot is...:-) Sorry...

Blix
Message no. 6
From: Tim Kerby <drekhead@***.NET>
Subject: Re: Racial Attributes (Re: gnomes)
Date: Wed, 15 Jul 1998 10:22:17 -0400
On 15 Jul 98, at 16:00, Wiebke & Birger Timm wrote:

> > One of the strongest men, pound for pound, is that Turkish "Pocket
> > Hercules" Olympic powerlifter. He's only something like 5 foot tall,
> > weighs something like 120 pounds, yet he can lift several times his own
> > weight above his head. It's actually an *advantage* to be shorter when
> > it comes to lifting heavy weights. Now, Pocket Hercules can't lift as
> > much *total* as some massive 6'8" 350 pounder, and that's where you get
> > your strength bonuses for orks and trolls.
>
> Hm... how about using the metric system as I really have no idea about how
> much an inch ro a foot is...:-) Sorry...

Ok, Blix, here is the translation to metric.

5 feet tall would be 1.524 meters.
6'8" or 6.666 feet would be 2.0325 meters.
120 pounds would be 54.431 kilos (kg).
350 pounds would be 158.757 kilos (kg).

(Not bad for an American, eh?) ;)

--





=================================================================
- Tim Kerby - drekhead@***.net - ICQ-UIN 2883757 -
-----------------------------------------------------------------
"Reality is the only obstacle to happiness." - Unknown
Message no. 7
From: Spike <u5a77@*****.CS.KEELE.AC.UK>
Subject: Re: Racial Attributes (Re: gnomes)
Date: Wed, 15 Jul 1998 15:43:23 +0100
And verily, did Wiebke & Birger Timm hastily scribble thusly...
|Hm... how about using the metric system as I really have no idea about how much
|an inch ro a foot is...:-) Sorry...

Simple. 12 inches to a foot.
3 Feet for a yard.
1 yard is pretty close to 1 meter...
--
-----------------------------------------------------------------------------
|u5a77@*****.cs.keele.ac.uk| Windows95 (noun): 32 bit extensions and a |
| | graphical shell for a 16 bit patch to an 8 bit |
| Andrew Halliwell | operating system originally coded for a 4 bit |
| Finalist in:- |microprocessor, written by a 2 bit company, that|
| Computer Science | can't stand 1 bit of competition. |
-----------------------------------------------------------------------------
|GCv3.1 GCS/EL>$ d---(dpu) s+/- a- C++ U N++ o+ K- w-- M+/++ PS+++ PE- Y t+ |
|5++ X+/++ R+ tv+ b+ D G e>PhD h/h+ !r! !y-|I can't say F**K either now! :( |
Message no. 8
From: Gurth <gurth@******.NL>
Subject: Re: Racial Attributes (Re: gnomes)
Date: Wed, 15 Jul 1998 20:38:27 +0100
Tim Kerby said on 10:22/15 Jul 98,...

> 5 feet tall would be 1.524 meters.
> 6'8" or 6.666 feet would be 2.0325 meters.
> 120 pounds would be 54.431 kilos (kg).
> 350 pounds would be 158.757 kilos (kg).
>
> (Not bad for an American, eh?) ;)

Except you never seem to have heard of significant digits :)

(I always get a laugh out of subtitled documentaries on TV, where
English narrators say things like "The two cities are some 200
miles apart" and it gets translated as 321.8 km...)

--
Gurth@******.nl - http://www.xs4all.nl/~gurth/index.html
"That's IT, lunchbox!!! We'll go to Shermer, Illinois!"
-> NERPS Project Leader * ShadowRN GridSec * Unofficial Shadowrun Guru <-
-> The Plastic Warriors Page: http://www.xs4all.nl/~gurth/plastic.html <-
-> The New Character Mortuary: http://www.electricferret.com/mortuary/ <-

GC3.1: GAT/! d-(dpu) s:- !a>? C+(++)@ U P L E? W(++) N o? K- w+ O V? PS+
PE Y PGP- t(+) 5++ X++ R+++>$ tv+(++) b++@ DI? D+ G(++) e h! !r(---) y?
Incubated into the First Church of the Sqooshy Ball, 21-05-1998
Message no. 9
From: Wiebke & Birger Timm <WiebkeT@********.DE>
Subject: Re: Racial Attributes (Re: gnomes)
Date: Wed, 15 Jul 1998 22:18:15 +0200
Tim Kerby wrote:

> Ok, Blix, here is the translation to metric.
>
> 5 feet tall would be 1.524 meters.
> 6'8" or 6.666 feet would be 2.0325 meters.
> 120 pounds would be 54.431 kilos (kg).
> 350 pounds would be 158.757 kilos (kg).
>
> (Not bad for an American, eh?) ;)

I won't comment on that ;-)

Thanks a lot!

Blix
Message no. 10
From: Wiebke & Birger Timm <WiebkeT@********.DE>
Subject: Re: Racial Attributes (Re: gnomes)
Date: Wed, 15 Jul 1998 22:26:52 +0200
Spike wrote:

> Simple. 12 inches to a foot.
> 3 Feet for a yard.
> 1 yard is pretty close to 1 meter...

Oh, I see...simple...

*thinking*

*scraching head*

*scowling*

...don't try to confuse me completely, won't you! ;-)

Blix
Message no. 11
From: wafflemiester <evamarie@**********.NET>
Subject: Re: Racial Attributes (Re: gnomes)
Date: Fri, 17 Jul 1998 02:50:38 -0500
>
> Re: Racial Attributes (Re: gnomes) (Martin Steffens , Wed 5:22)

> The muscles in a human's body are not exactly set up to give a
> maximum leverage in many cases.

What SORT of leverage? Lverage that DECREASES load, but INCREASES
travel is very important, especially as muscle has a limited contactile
ratio.
Evolution tends to provide an optimal balnce for the task at hand.
Motionsthat need to be fast have low mechanical advantage, on purpose.

> for example you could easily lift
> five times as much weight with your biceps if they would be attached
> close to your wrist, simply because you can then use your elbow joint
> more efficiently as a hinge.

Your range of motion would be similar to that of a turtle, whose
muscular arnagment is about like that. Yourarm motions would also
beabout as SLOW as a turtles.

> For a example of both in glorious ASCII graphics:
>
> @**********
>
> @**********
>
> @= elbow joint / hinge
> L= ligament of muscle
> -= fore arm bone
> W= weight in hands
>
> First case the muscle has to pull with a force four times that of the
> weight to keep it up while next it only has to use a force 4/3 times
> that of the weight.

It alsohas to contact alonger distance, taking a longer time.

> so instead of a muscle enhancement / replacement,
> get a ligament re-alignment. Should be completely essence free and
> just as effective (although you might not get a quickness bonus).

You would get a PENALTY. HMM, rather like a dwarf or a troll does...
:)
>
> Martin,
> (The Trivia Buff <strikes again!/ha:ha:ha>)

-Mongoose-
(No aplied knowledge should be considered trivial.)
Message no. 12
From: wafflemiester <evamarie@**********.NET>
Subject: Re: Racial Attributes (Re: gnomes)
Date: Fri, 17 Jul 1998 15:29:49 -0500
> Re: Racial Attributes (Re: gnomes) (Wiebke & Birger Timm , Wed 15:26)
>
> Spike wrote:
>
> > Simple. 12 inches to a foot.
> > 3 Feet for a yard.
> > 1 yard is pretty close to 1 meter...

> ...don't try to confuse me completely, won't you! ;-)
>
> Blix

1 meter is very close to 39 inches, or 3.25 feet, or 1.1 yards. That
ought to make things simple.
It works forme- I almost intutivly grasp meters now, no easy job if
taught carpentry as a child in the US. I do all my metal work with
metric measuers, when I can find meter sticks and tape measures, and
computer layouts support metric, even if our paper industy won't yet.

mongoose
Message no. 13
From: "Ubiratan P. Alberton" <ubiratan@**.HOMESHOPPING.COM.BR>
Subject: Re: Racial Attributes (Re: gnomes)
Date: Fri, 17 Jul 1998 21:27:03 -0300
At 10:22 15/07/98 +0000, you wrote:
>and thus did Erik Jameson speak on 14 Jul 98 at 14:14:
>
>
>Look at the little buggers! They might be able to carry one easily,
>but it would be huge to them. It would be like normal humans walking
>around with a 4 metre pole (13 foot for the metrically challenged).
>I would restrict the number and type of items they want to carry
>around. Before you know it they will look like a walking backpack.
>

Hey, I just tought of a Gnome Gunner now... :)

Give him Gunnery 6 or more... He could use a tripod for the cannon, or
simply be also a
rigger and shoot those twin Victories that are up in the turret :) .

Bira
Message no. 14
From: Avenger <Avenger@*******.DEMON.CO.UK>
Subject: Re: Racial Attributes (Re: gnomes)
Date: Sat, 18 Jul 1998 02:29:28 +0100
In article <3.0.5.32.19980717212703.007e4300@****
gw.homeshopping.com.br>, Ubiratan P. Alberton <ubiratan@**.HOMESHOPPING.
COM.BR> writes
>At 10:22 15/07/98 +0000, you wrote:
>>and thus did Erik Jameson speak on 14 Jul 98 at 14:14:
>>Look at the little buggers! They might be able to carry one easily,
>>but it would be huge to them. It would be like normal humans walking
>
> Hey, I just tought of a Gnome Gunner now... :)
>
> Give him Gunnery 6 or more... He could use a tripod for the cannon, or
>simply be also a
>rigger and shoot those twin Victories that are up in the turret :) .

Why is it that a strange vision, of a little guy, hanging from a pair of
guns spitting bullets at the sky, buildings and surrounding countryside
while his feet dangle a couple of feet off the floor suddenly fill my
mind?

--
Avenger
http://www.shalako.demon.co.uk/index.htm
(Newbies Survival Guide to Stk & SR stuff)
http://freespace.virgin.net/p.siems/index.htm
(UK Survival Guide, SR Guide to the Oceans.)
Message no. 15
From: "Ubiratan P. Alberton" <ubiratan@**.HOMESHOPPING.COM.BR>
Subject: Re: Racial Attributes (Re: gnomes)
Date: Fri, 17 Jul 1998 22:01:18 -0300
At 10:22 15/07/98 -0400, you wrote:
>On 15 Jul 98, at 16:00, Wiebke & Birger Timm wrote:
>
>> > One of the strongest men, pound for pound, is that Turkish "Pocket
>> > Hercules" Olympic powerlifter. He's only something like 5 foot tall,
>> > weighs something like 120 pounds, yet he can lift several times his own
>> > weight above his head. It's actually an *advantage* to be shorter when
>> > it comes to lifting heavy weights. Now, Pocket Hercules can't lift as
>> > much *total* as some massive 6'8" 350 pounder, and that's where you get
>> > your strength bonuses for orks and trolls.
>>
>> Hm... how about using the metric system as I really have no idea about how
>> much an inch ro a foot is...:-) Sorry...
>
>Ok, Blix, here is the translation to metric.
>
>5 feet tall would be 1.524 meters.
>6'8" or 6.666 feet would be 2.0325 meters.
>120 pounds would be 54.431 kilos (kg).
>350 pounds would be 158.757 kilos (kg).
>
>(Not bad for an American, eh?) ;)
>

This not counting you probably used a program or a calculator to do
it... :)

Bira
Message no. 16
From: Martin Steffens <chimerae@***.IE>
Subject: Re: Racial Attributes (Re: gnomes)
Date: Sat, 18 Jul 1998 15:50:47 +0000
and thus did wafflemiester speak on 17 Jul 98 at 2:50:

[snip]
> Your range of motion would be similar to that of a turtle, whose
> muscular arnagment is about like that. Yourarm motions would also
> be about as SLOW as a turtles.

Ah damn, I knew it was too good to be true... Thanks for the
correction.

> You would get a PENALTY. HMM, rather like a dwarf or a troll does...
> :)

You might be on to something here...

Karina & Martin Steffens
chimerae@***.ie

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