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From:	The Digital Mage <mn3rge@****.ac.uk>
Subject:	Racial Maximums
Date:	Wed, 6 Dec 1995 09:24:20 +0000 (GMT)

Message no. 1 > I belive the maximum you can raise an attribute is 1.5 times the racial
> maximum (by using Karma)
Does this new rule of FASA's annoy anyone else as well? I mean whats teh
point of saying teh racial maximum is 6 if you then say you can increase
it to 150% of that? A Wolf Shaman initiate I used to GM for (and still do
on occassion) now has a Willpower of 8 (maybe 9 I can't remember) and
also Quickness of 9 (he's an elf).

The guy who plays the female street sam also wanted to get her body up to
8 or 9, but not accept taht it would make her look REAL butch and a not
to everyones tastes even though she has Charisma:6 and tailored
pheremones. I already had played up teh point that with even body:5 and
strength:6 she was looking like a female bodybuilder.

I don't, however, have any problem of certain characters being able to
have certain attributes above teh max e.g Corp scientist Int:8, but
allowing every character, be able to push up every stat is just a little
much. Maybe if a character sacrificed something at character generation,
the limit could be raised to 1.5 times max on ONE attribute.

The Otaku thing seems balanced though.

The Digital Mage : mn3rge@****.ac.uk
Shadowrun WWW site at http://www.bath.ac.uk/~mn3rge/Shadowrun
-------------------------------------------------------
"We're falling from ecstacy, like Changlings."
-Fields of the Nephilim, Psychonaut Lib 111.

From:	Charles McKenzie <kilroy@**.wisc.edu>
Subject:	Re: Racial Maximums
Date:	Wed, 6 Dec 1995 03:53:36 -0600 (CST)

Message no. 2 On Wed, 6 Dec 1995, The Digital Mage wrote:
> I don't, however, have any problem of certain characters being able to
> have certain attributes above teh max e.g Corp scientist Int:8, but
> allowing every character, be able to push up every stat is just a little=

> much. Maybe if a character sacrificed something at character generation,=

> the limit could be raised to 1.5 times max on ONE attribute.

Why is this a problem?
In order for a character to boost an attribute from 6 to 9, they need
48 karma. I don't know what most other GMs are like, but this is far
from a trivial ammount in my game. Spending this kind of karma doing
something implies that the character is devoting a major part of his life=

to getting stronger/faster/tougher. For the ammount of karma a character
spends on this attribute, they cound get a new skill of 6 (expert).

It's the choice of getting a little better at something or of going
out and (from scratch) getting a PhD in something else. For what a
character sacrifices, they could do far worse things that boost an
attribute by 3.

Just my thoughts on the matter,

Chuck McKenzie ® kilroy@***.cs.wisc.edu
Finger me for my PGP key http://yar.cs.wisc.edu/~kilroy/

From:	The Digital Mage <mn3rge@****.ac.uk>
Subject:	Re: Racial Maximums (fwd)
Date:	Wed, 6 Dec 1995 13:37:38 +0000 (GMT)

Message no. 3 Note this is a forwarded messages, not by me! :)

The Digital Mage : mn3rge@****.ac.uk
Shadowrun WWW site at http://www.bath.ac.uk/~mn3rge/Shadowrun
-------------------------------------------------------
"We're falling from ecstacy, like Changlings."
-Fields of the Nephilim, Psychonaut Lib 111.

---------- Forwarded message ----------

Charles McKenzie writes

> On Wed, 6 Dec 1995, The Digital Mage wrote:
> > I don't, however, have any problem of certain characters being able to
> > have certain attributes above teh max e.g Corp scientist Int:8, but
> > allowing every character, be able to push up every stat is just a
> > little much.
>
> Why is this a problem?
> In order for a character to boost an attribute from 6 to 9, they need
> 48 karma. I don't know what most other GMs are like, but this is far
> from a trivial ammount in my game. Spending this kind of karma doing
> something implies that the character is devoting a major part of
> his life
> to getting stronger/faster/tougher. For the ammount of karma a character
> spends on this attribute, they cound get a new skill of 6 (expert).
>
> It's the choice of getting a little better at something or of going
> out and (from scratch) getting a PhD in something else. For what a
> character sacrifices, they could do far worse things that boost an
> attribute by 3.
>
like put firearms or sorcery from 6 to 9! considering you can put
attribute fro 6 to 10 for 2 karma thats pretty lousy! (oh the 1 karma
i'll learn +4 str at force 1, another 1 to quicken it, ah 46 left
over will more than cover the initation grade to mask it and look at
all those freebie bonuses!!) [and cyber don't even cost karma at all
if you're not a magician]

48 karma will buy about grade 3 initate from nothing or enough extra
utility spells to make the GM go home in defeat.(assuming a decent
inital spell list) [ which says lots for where its best spent is game
wreckings what you want]

> Just my thoughts on the matter,
>
all very valid.
As a result i don't think of post racial maximum attributes as being
a problem, all 1's and 6's at startup is much more hassle as those
1's are far too cheap to put up.
My solution is to bill folks at
FASA's cost for a 1st increase
Double FASA for a 2nd
Triple FASA for a 3rd e.t.c.

so human starting at 6
6 -> 7 = 14 (7*2)
7 -> 8 = 32 (8*2 * 2)
8 -> 9 = 54 (9*2 * 3) yes that is 100 Karma ouch!

and i have still seen 3's turning into 6's!!
thats 4 + 10 + 18 = 32 karma on an attribute (only 15 by FASA rulings)

> Chuck McKenzie ® kilroy@***.cs.wisc.edu
>
>

Mark

From:	Stainless Steel Rat <ratinox@***.neu.edu>
Subject:	Re: Racial Maximums
Date:	Wed, 6 Dec 1995 12:02:51 -0500

Message no. 4 -----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----

>>>>> "TDM" == The Digital Mage <mn3rge@****.ac.uk> writes:

TDM> Does this new rule of FASA's annoy anyone else as well? I mean
TDM> whats teh point of saying teh racial maximum is 6 if you then say
TDM> you can increase it to 150% of that?

Because the "racial maximum" is the *NORMAL* maximum that most people
could achieve. An Olympic weightlifter will certainly exceed a Strength
6, but it takes an extraordinary effort to achieve that level of
ability.

And BTW, this is not a "new" rule; it's been around since the first
edition of the game.

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From:	U-Gene <R3STG@***.CC.UAKRON.EDU>
Subject:	Re: Racial Maximums
Date:	Wed, 06 Dec 95 12:50:10 EST

Message no. 5 Stainless Steel Rat:
>And BTW, this is not a new rule; it's been around since the first
>edition of the game.

Charles McKenzie mentioned it was an optional rule in the SR2 book.
I'll take a look, but I'd think I ever seen it in there.
If someone knows where it came from, let me know. Thanks.

U-Gene << is exasperated. Didn't think I knew such big words, did ya? >>

From:	Charles McKenzie <kilroy@**.wisc.edu>
Subject:	Re: Racial Maximums
Date:	Wed, 6 Dec 1995 14:39:55 -0600 (CST)

Message no. 6 On Wed, 6 Dec 1995, U-Gene wrote:
> Charles McKenzie mentioned it was an optional rule in the SR2 book.
> I'll take a look, but I'd think I ever seen it in there.
> If someone knows where it came from, let me know. Thanks.

SR2, page 190, under "Good Karma"
"Attribute ratings cannot normally exceed the character's racial
maximum. However, if the gamemaster agrees, paying double the Good Karma=

Points can raise the Attribute above the racial maximum. Fro example, a
human character who wanted to raise her Strength from 6 to 7 would have
to spend 14 Good Karma Points to do so. The gamemaster should probably
discourage players from raising a character's Attributes to beyond 1.5 x
the racial maximum."

Hope that helps.

(It might be in SR1 also, but I'm too lazy to look.)

Chuck McKenzie ® kilroy@***.cs.wisc.edu
Finger me for my PGP key http://yar.cs.wisc.edu/~kilroy/
UW-Madison « Madison, WI

From:	Charles McKenzie <kilroy@**.wisc.edu>
Subject:	Re: Racial Maximums
Date:	Wed, 6 Dec 1995 14:48:12 -0600 (CST)

Message no. 7 Arg...
Anyone know why I get these =20 things on line wraps?
I'm in windows 3.1, (don't laugh...they're cleaning my lab),
telneted to pine (on ultrix). Any idea what I need to do to take them out?
It just started happening a few days ago.
(Sorry this isn't SR related, but my last message looked REALLY BAD.)

On Wed, 6 Dec 1995, Charles McKenzie wrote:

> On Wed, 6 Dec 1995, U-Gene wrote:
> > Charles McKenzie mentioned it was an optional rule in the SR2 book.
> > I'll take a look, but I'd think I ever seen it in there.
> > If someone knows where it came from, let me know. Thanks.
> =09
> SR2, page 190, under "Good Karma"
> =09"Attribute ratings cannot normally exceed the character's racial=2=
0
> maximum. However, if the gamemaster agrees, paying double the Good Karma=
=
> =20
> Points can raise the Attribute above the racial maximum. Fro example, a=
=20
> human character who wanted to raise her Strength from 6 to 7 would have=
=20
> to spend 14 Good Karma Points to do so. The gamemaster should probably=
=20
> discourage players from raising a character's Attributes to beyond 1.5 x=
=20
> the racial maximum."
>
> Hope that helps.
>
> (It might be in SR1 also, but I'm too lazy to look.)
>
> Chuck McKenzie =AE kilroy@***.cs.wisc.edu =20
> Finger me for my PGP key http://yar.cs.wisc.edu/~kilroy/
> UW-Madison =AB Madison, WI
>
>

Chuck McKenzie ® kilroy@***.cs.wisc.edu
Finger me for my PGP key http://yar.cs.wisc.edu/~kilroy/
UW-Madison « Madison, WI

From:	"Gurth" <gurth@******.nl>
Subject:	Re: Racial Maximums
Date:	Thu, 7 Dec 1995 11:34:14 +0100

Message no. 8 Stainless Steel Rat said on 6 Dec 95...

[maximum attribute valu = 1.5x racial maximum]
> And BTW, this is not a "new" rule; it's been around since the first
> edition of the game.

Funny... I always thought in SR1 you could only raise your attributes to
the racial maximum and not beyond... Are you sure?

--
Gurth@******.nl - http://www.xs4all.nl/~gurth/index.html
I'm so happy 'cause today I found my friends are in my computer
-> NERPS Project Leader & Unofficial Shadowrun Guru <-
-> The Character Mortuary: http://huizen.dds.nl/~mortuary/mortuary.html <-

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From:	"A Halliwell" <u5a77@**.keele.ac.uk>
Subject:	Re: Racial Maximums
Date:	Thu, 7 Dec 1995 13:15:30 +0000 (GMT)

Message no. 9 >
> Stainless Steel Rat said on 6 Dec 95...
>
> [maximum attribute valu = 1.5x racial maximum]
> > And BTW, this is not a "new" rule; it's been around since the first
> > edition of the game.
>
> Funny... I always thought in SR1 you could only raise your attributes to
> the racial maximum and not beyond... Are you sure?

I'm more familiar with SR1 that SR2 (mainly because that's what I still play
and I'm pretty sure that not only does it say you CAN NOT raise your stats
above the racial max, but you can only EVER raise your stats ONCE. When we
raise our stats we put a star next to them as a marker saying the stat HAS
been raised.
I think they should have kept this rule for SR2 because it stops players
from being silly. A mage that starts with a low strength shouldn't be able
to more than double it in the course of 2 adventures (which is quite
possible in SR2.
As a house rule in SR1 I do allow an increase above racial max if the
character started with his stat AT racial max.

> --
> Gurth@******.nl - http://www.xs4all.nl/~gurth/index.html
> I'm so happy 'cause today I found my friends are in my computer
> -> NERPS Project Leader & Unofficial Shadowrun Guru <-
> -> The Character Mortuary: http://huizen.dds.nl/~mortuary/mortuary.html <-
>
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>

--
______________________________________________________________________________
| |What to do if you find yourself stuck in a crackin |
|u5a77@**.keele.ac.uk |the ground beneath a giant bolder, which you can't |
| |move, with no hope of rescue. |
|Andrew Halliwell |Consider how lucky you are that life has been good |
|Principal in:- |to you so far... |
|Comp Sci & Visual Arts | -The BOOK, Hitchhikers guide to the galaxy. |
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From:	Guy Swartwood <gswartwo@*********.WichitaKS.ATTGIS.COM>
Subject:	Re: Racial Maximums
Date:	Thu, 07 Dec 95 10:35:00 PST

Message no. 10 <<<about racial maximums and raising abilities?>>>

>I'm more familiar with SR1 that SR2 (mainly because that's what I still
play
>and I'm pretty sure that not only does it say you CAN NOT raise your stats
>above the racial max, but you can only EVER raise your stats ONCE. When we
>raise our stats we put a star next to them as a marker saying the stat HAS
>been raised.
>I think they should have kept this rule for SR2 because it stops players
>from being silly. A mage that starts with a low strength shouldn't be able
>to more than double it in the course of 2 adventures (which is quite
>possible in SR2.
>As a house rule in SR1 I do allow an increase above racial max if the
>character started with his stat AT racial max.

I have no opinion on raising character attributes above racial maxiumums
above the fact that it is the GM's call no matter what. If the GM feels like
it is acceptable, so be it.

What I do find silly is that the absolute thinking of raising attributes
only once.

It comes down to the GM's playing style. In my campaign, you are allowed to
raise your attributes more than once. One point at a time. There is nothing
wrong with a mage with a strength of 2 going to strength of 5 or six as long
as 1. I approve of it 2. that it is a point at a time
3. that it takes a long period of time. I feel that the increase takes
lots of work and time, therefore when a player who just raised an attribute
finishes another adventure and asks for another increase, I decline because
I feel that not enough time has lapsed for the increase to take affect.

It justs cuts down to the fact that it is GM's call.

Guy Swartwood corporate decker by day, Shadowrunner at night
wildman@******.net
gswartwo@*********.wichitaks.attgis.com

From:	Stainless Steel Rat <ratinox@***.neu.edu>
Subject:	Re: Racial Maximums
Date:	Thu, 7 Dec 1995 12:17:10 -0500

Message no. 11 -----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----

>>>>> "G" == Gurth <gurth@******.nl> writes:

>> And BTW, this is not a "new" rule; it's been around since the first
>> edition of the game.

G> Funny... I always thought in SR1 you could only raise your attributes
G> to the racial maximum and not beyond... Are you sure?

It's in one of seven-odd printings of the first edition rulebook. I
don't remember which one as I haven't had the need to even look in my
fifth, corrected printing in years :).

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From:	Craig S Dohmen <dohmen@*******.cse.psu.edu>
Subject:	Re: Racial Maximums
Date:	Thu, 7 Dec 1995 18:33:07 -0500

Message no. 12 On Thu, 7 Dec 1995, A Halliwell wrote:

> I think they should have kept this rule for SR2 because it stops players
> from being silly. A mage that starts with a low strength shouldn't be able
> to more than double it in the course of 2 adventures (which is quite
> possible in SR2.

A long time ago, my GM and I dicussed this and came up with the
following method:

1st raise of attribute costs karma = value you're raising it to
2nd raise of attribute costs karma = 2 * value ...
3rd raise = 3 * value ...
...

We never got around to deciding about increasing beyond racial maxima.
So, with this method, you can increase your body from 2 to 6 if you
want, but it's going to cost you. ( 3 + 2(4) + 3(5) + 4(6) = 50 karma )

--Craig

From:	seb@***.ripco.com (Sebastian Wiers)
Subject:	Re: Racial Maximums
Date:	Thu, 7 Dec 1995 22:49:49 -0600 (CST)

Message no. 13 > Does this new rule of FASA's annoy anyone else as well? I mean whats teh
> point of saying teh racial maximum is 6 if you then say you can increase
> it to 150% of that? A Wolf Shaman initiate I used to GM for (and still do
> on occassion) now has a Willpower of 8 (maybe 9 I can't remember) and
> also Quickness of 9 (he's an elf).
>Digital Mage
do most people have problems like this? In our campaign, the only caracter
with maxed attibutes is a phys ad with about 90 karma, so maybe it depends on
Karma, but the cost is usually high enough to discourage REALLY high stats.
Of couse, all stats maxed annoys some GMS
seb

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