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Message no. 1
From: Erik Jameson <erikj@****.COM>
Subject: Racism in SR (was Re: Humanis Contacts)
Date: Mon, 23 Mar 1998 21:06:21 -0500
Excellent response Fade. I'm glad that I guessed right.

<asbestos warning> As a reminder to the people who will participate in this
discussion, please, since we talking about race and racism (very sensitive
topics), let's try not to step on too many toes and keep those
flamethrowers you all got for Christmas in the closet. <asbestos warning off>

Not only is the Internet a great equalizer, it's also an incredible forum
for people to be heard. Freedom of speech is one of the defining credos of
the Internet, able to bind together liberal and conservative, old and
young, rich and poor, corporate collective and individual.

This does have it's drawbacks. Some US family think tank, I think it was,
published some study recently about hate and the Internet. They claimed
that in 1993 (or something) there was only one hate web site. They now
claim there are thousands of hate sites. Now, while I question the numbers
and their motives, they did get that basic fact down, that there has been
an explosion of hate sites on the Internet (which would coincide with the
general Internet growth).

So not only do we have to put up with stupid pages about Sally and her
puppy, we also have to wade through sex sites (some of which I strongly
suspect are 100% illegal in the majority of jurisdictions) and thousands of
web sites devoted to nothing but hatred. Anonymity often brings out these
sorts of people.

I really don't want to get into a debate about free speech or anything. So
please don't go there.

But what I do wonder about is racism in SR in 205X and how various people
play that. Let's take a look at the basic elements in SR canon:

According to the sourcebooks and some of the novels, racism is alive and
well. Entire nations are founded on principles of racism (the two Tirs,
Imperial Japan, apparently Azzania,) and other nations simply have
institutionalized, but unofficial racism (UCAS, CAS, England). A large
number of street gangs are built around race hatred, and organized crime
has strong racial overtones and blatant implications. The Humanis Policlub
and various other hate groups (Alamos 20K for example) are supposed to very
powerful, very nasty. Kyle Brackhaven, a blatant racist, came relatively
close to winning the UCAS election.

Fade also brings up the point that statistically, in game mechanics, trolls
really aren't as smart as humans or elfs. Dwarfs really are a bit slower.
Elfs really are a bit less "robust" than humans. And trolls and orcs are,
let's be honest, typically ugly (can you imagine Cindy Crawford or some
other supermodel with dermal deposits, fangs and a horn? Sorry, not my
idea of a beautiful woman.). In real life, scientists *have* discovered
minor, almost negligible, differences between different "races" (which, as
any anthropologist can tell you, is a racist misnomer; different races
can't interbreed by definition) such as a slight difference in the
percentage of fast twitch vs. slow twitch muscle fibers in blacks vs.
whites and Asians. Nothing major, and it's only an average, but there are
differences

And yet, despite all this, most gaming groups totally ignore the race
situation. I suspect that it is because for most people, the entire
question of racism simply makes them uncomfortable and they don't want to
deal with it. Which is why, now that I think about it some more, is why
most people don't use Humanis except as doofish thugs and MOM activists are
sweetness and light. That's easy to deal with.

If you really want a more realistic game world, I wouldn't bother with hit
locations charts and special martial arts and the like; I would deal with
hard to accept game/life concepts such as, but not limited to, racism.
Sure, it's not something easy to get a handle on. Sure, it's easier to
simply label all racists as "evil;" but isn't that sort of labeling what
the racists do?

I'm not advocating racism or even necessarily the usage or racist PCs,
since they can possibly be disruptive (regardless of if they are Humanis or
Lord Torgo; remember, racism isn't the sole domain of humans/whites alone).
But I would advocate exploring these concepts with your gaming group.

It is these sorts of game explorations that can cause the players
themselves to examine their thoughts and opinions. That has to be a good
thing, and that's one of the best things about RPGs, the chance to explore
not only another world, but yourself as well. I think sometimes we get so
caught up in the entertainment factor that we forget that RPGs can also be
a learning experience.

Well, that's enough from me for now.

<thinks about hiding under asbestos blanket, then decides he doesn't need it>

Erik J.


"Oh, the silent helicopters and the men in black fatigues? They're just my
car pool to work."
Message no. 2
From: Robert Watkins <robert.watkins@******.COM>
Subject: Re: Racism in SR (was Re: Humanis Contacts)
Date: Tue, 24 Mar 1998 12:32:30 +1000
Erik Jameson writes:
[a wonderful article on the place of racism in roleplaying snipped]

Erik, that's one of the better pieces I've seen submitted to this list,
ever...

To continue, I'd like to make some comments as well.
<don asbestos overcoat>
Racism is linked to prejudice in many ways. Prejudice is always bad: it's
the forming of an opinion on a subject not on sufficient, or even
insufficient, information, but on no information. I'd say that EVERYBODY is
prejudiced in some way or another, over some issue, where they'd take a side
without hearing the facts (e.g. Joe Bloggs is being tried for killing his
mother. He admits he did it. Is he a good person or a bad person? With that
question, most people would say bad, without even considering possibilities
like self-defence or being abused as a child, etc, etc).

Racism is a hatred of either a specific race/tribe/sub-species, or of all
other races/tribes/sub-species. In most instances, racism is prejudical as
well.

Racists NEVER see themselves as "bad", or "evil". They always see
themselves
as hating or disliking the other groups because they are threatened by the
other group in some way.

Racists don't have to be sadistic, though that is the usual portrayal. For
example, a storekeeper who refuses to serve blacks (or trolls, or wendigos)
is as racist as a Race Warrior who patrols the street looking for trogs to
bash up.

Finally, the visible face of racism (the KKK, or Humanis, or whatever) is
always just the tip of the iceberg. The racist extremists are just that:
extremists. The majority of racists will not go to that extreme. They'll be
the people who voted Brackhaven at the election because "Well, he's right!
Those Indians did kick my pop out of his home in Ohio. And didn't Henry get
robbed by a couple of trolls? Why, he didn't have a chance against them.
They were just too strong!", etc etc.

The trouble with racism is that it is an extremely sensitive topic, and it
makes it hard to have _rational_ debates about the issues. For example, if
in SR, a scientist came out with a study proving that trolls, for example,
had a generally lower average IQ (say, as part of a proposal to increase
funding for troll students to compensate for the genetic disability), that
scientist would instantly be labelled a racist by MOM, and hailed as a "good
old boy" who "proved what we've been saying all along" by Humanis.
Similarly
if a scientist came out with a study showing that goblinization at or past
puberty is an extremely traumatic process which sometimes (say, 10% of the
time) produces mental instability to some degree or another.

All that said, you can't really ignore race issues in SR. Less than 20 years
ago, racial violence tore apart nearly the whole world in the Night of Rage.
Metahumans, especially orks and trolls, _are_ intimidating to the average
"normal" human. Humanis really is a powerful political lobby group. If you
ignore race issues in SR, you're ignore a very powerful aspect of the game
that contributes a lot to the 'dark' aspect of cyberpunk.

--
.sig deleted to conserve electrons robert.watkins@******.com
Message no. 3
From: Fade <runefo@***.UIO.NO>
Subject: Re: Racism in SR (was Re: Humanis Contacts)
Date: Tue, 24 Mar 1998 04:25:12 +0000
Erik Jameson wrote:
> Not only is the Internet a great equalizer, it's also an incredible forum
> for people to be heard. Freedom of speech is one of the defining credos of
> the Internet, able to bind together liberal and conservative, old and
> young, rich and poor, corporate collective and individual.
>
> This does have it's drawbacks. Some US family think tank, I think it was,
> published some study recently about hate and the Internet. They claimed
> that in 1993 (or something) there was only one hate web site. They now
> claim there are thousands of hate sites.
*snip*

I have no problem with this number. It can be way higher now, if you
count home pages with racist content. Dedicated hate sites..
probably, I dunno. You see its cause in a lot of sigs: "What you pay
is what you get.". I'm very curious about the internet's future. A
few cases seeme innocuous. Global Money Games, a global lottery, was
recently started in Switzerland, at least partially by a few
norwegians. The Norwegian justice department wants to take action
against it, as it is quite illegal. Anyway, it's going bankrupt so
the point is mote. Who cares, right? And anyway, it's in switzerland.
Same with those hate or porn sites. They're located with ISP's where
they can't be touched, or just hop around. We're entering into a lot
of interesting cases of, among other things, extraterritoriality.
It's another little detail that shows that the increasing
globalization - the global village - is far outside governemtn
control. It's happening at breakneck speed. We're not far from global
currencies, powerless governments, superpowerful megacorporations.
Except unlike in SR (Or like in SR) they'll be headless giants
flailing wildly, not controlled constructs. Our world has the
potential to be a dark, dreary place - a place far worse than SR,
without that spark of magic to give hope.. But I'll never see that
dark dreariness in the mirror. Neither will most of you. We'll barely
notice it. Like most of the salarymen in SR.... I wish I had the
courage to try to do something about it, and if I had the courage,
also had the wisdom to do the right thing.

(Someone on this list, somewhere, just thought, hm.. I'll make this
run with a fanatical political activist called... hm.. 'Fade'.. .;)

Back to racism.. actually, no. Erik Jameson said it more than well
enough, and I have nothing to add that would improve it. Very good
points, all of them, and more than a little thought provoking.
Thanks.
--
Fade

And the Prince of Lies said:
"To reign is worth ambition, though in Hell:
Better to reign in hell than to serve in heaven."
-John Milton, Paradise Lost
Message no. 4
From: Erik Jameson <erikj@****.COM>
Subject: Re: Racism in SR (was Re: Humanis Contacts)
Date: Tue, 24 Mar 1998 13:15:33 -0500
At 12:32 PM 3/24/98 +1000, you wrote:
>Erik Jameson writes:
>[a wonderful article on the place of racism in roleplaying snipped]
>
>Erik, that's one of the better pieces I've seen submitted to this list,
>ever...
>
Well, thank you. Nice to know that people actually read some of these
threads.

<snip another excellent article on racism in RPGs>

I must say that this was also top-notch, and I think you really hit the
nail on the head with your points.

Now, I only hope that the list actually read both of our posts and is
willing to take them seriously.

Erik J.


"Oh, the silent helicopters and the men in black fatigues? They're just my
car pool to work."
Message no. 5
From: David Buehrer <dbuehrer@******.CARL.ORG>
Subject: Re: Racism in SR (was Re: Humanis Contacts)
Date: Tue, 24 Mar 1998 12:09:35 -0700
Erik Jameson wrote:
/
/ Now, I only hope that the list actually read both of our posts and is
/ willing to take them seriously.

Did and done. Couldn't think of anything to add. Nothing to argue
with :)

-David
--
"Belief is a truth held in the mind.
Faith is a fire in the heart."
- Joseph F. Newton
--
ShadowRN GridSec
email: dbuehrer@******.carl.org
http://www.geocities.com/TimesSquare/1068/homepage.htm
Message no. 6
From: Lehlan Decker <decker@****.FSU.EDU>
Subject: Re: Racism in SR (was Re: Humanis Contacts)
Date: Tue, 24 Mar 1998 14:15:16 -0500
On Tue, Mar 24, 1998 at 12:09:35PM -0700, David Buehrer wrote:
> Erik Jameson wrote:
> /
> / Now, I only hope that the list actually read both of our posts and is
> / willing to take them seriously.
>
> Did and done. Couldn't think of anything to add. Nothing to argue
> with :)
>
Heh..which almost takes all the phone out of it. :)


--
--------------------------------------------------------------------
Lehlan Decker 644-4534 Systems Development
decker@****.fsu.edu http://www.scri.fsu.edu/~decker
--------------------------------------------------------------------
"Uh-Oh Toto, it doesn't look like we're gods anymore."
Message no. 7
From: Da Twink Daddy <twinkie@*******.DMSC.K12.AR.US>
Subject: Re: Racism in SR (was Re: Humanis Contacts)
Date: Tue, 24 Mar 1998 13:48:09 -0600
-----Original Message-----
From: Lehlan Decker <decker@****.FSU.EDU>


>> / Now, I only hope that the list actually read both of our posts and is
>> / willing to take them seriously.

>> Did and done. Couldn't think of anything to add. Nothing to argue
>> with :)

Ditto.

>Heh..which almost takes all the phone out of it. :)


Phone? Er, don't you mean fun? (Or is that what the smiley is for?)

*realized this thread is way to peaceful*

So, how about them woodchucks? are they racist?
are they sentient? are any racists sentient?

*Looks, towards Gurth's stairs, remembers that carp gun and jumps through
the warp into the metaplane of Twink created by Wyrmy's (aka Wyrmy the Red
and Green etc.) Force 8 ally.*

Da Twink Daddy ( twinkie@*******.dmsc.k12.ar.us gilmeth@*********.com
UIN:514984)
----------
"Don't hit me!! I'm in the Twilight Zone!!!" --Zippy the Pinhead
----------
http://vancove.dmsc.k12.ar.us/~twinkie/
http://www.geocities.com/SiliconValley/Pines/3759/
Message no. 8
From: Lehlan Decker <decker@****.FSU.EDU>
Subject: Re: Racism in SR (was Re: Humanis Contacts)
Date: Tue, 24 Mar 1998 15:09:25 -0500
On Tue, Mar 24, 1998 at 01:48:09PM -0600, Da Twink Daddy wrote:

>
> >Heh..which almost takes all the phone out of it. :)
>
>
> Phone? Er, don't you mean fun? (Or is that what the smiley is for?)
>
Heh..I meant fun, but as usual, my brain sometimes crosses things
when I'm reading mail, on the phone, and compiling code. It wouldn't
be the 1st time. :)


> *realized this thread is way to peaceful*
>
> So, how about them woodchucks? are they racist?
> are they sentient? are any racists sentient?
>
> *Looks, towards Gurth's stairs, remembers that carp gun and jumps through
> the warp into the metaplane of Twink created by Wyrmy's (aka Wyrmy the Red
> and Green etc.) Force 8 ally.*
>

*********THWAP****************************
Never mention those hideous furry things every gain! :)
Or even Gurth's stair's won't be enough protection. The hounds
of Gridsec will be unleased. :)
(And the answer is no they aren't racist or sentient, at least
I hope not).

--
--------------------------------------------------------------------
Lehlan Decker 644-4534 Systems Development
decker@****.fsu.edu http://www.scri.fsu.edu/~decker
--------------------------------------------------------------------
"Uh-Oh Toto, it doesn't look like we're gods anymore."
Message no. 9
From: Danyel N Woods <9604801@********.AC.NZ>
Subject: Re: Racism in SR (was Re: Humanis Contacts)
Date: Wed, 25 Mar 1998 09:43:06 +1200
Quoth Dave Buehrer (0710 25-03-98):

Erik Jameson wrote:
/
/ Now, I only hope that the list actually read both of our posts
and is
/ willing to take them seriously.

Did and done. Couldn't think of anything to add. Nothing to
argue
with :)

Now, everyone's made coherent, considered points on this, and the posts
are getting their due consideration, but I'd just like to raise
something semi-related that has always puzzled me:

Whenever one is shown an 'economically depressed' area in Shadowrun, it
is usually populated by metahumans, predominantly the Goblinised. Now,
admittedly I know nothing of America's race-relations problems other
than what I see and hear on (and infer from) the news, but why are these
areas like this? Example: the African-American and Hispanic-American
areas of modern-day LA. Even given the upheavals of the intervening
sixty years, the populations of those areas aren't going to change much,
are they? The residents will be the children/grand-children of today's
residents. The socio-economic makeup of America will still involve large
areas of this 'underclass'. Goblinisation Day, 2021, affected 10% of
the population - all the population, not just the poor. Millionaires of
all stripes would have been affected too. Would the banks foreclose on
them just because they grew a foot taller and needed some serious dental
work? Unlikely.

What I'm saying is, most of the socioeconomic difficulties of America's
'minorities' (not my term) appear to be inherited from past oppression
or lack of citizenship. The so-called 'trogs' have no such history of
oppression (they only appeared forty-odd years ago), so they would be
less likely to have such ghettos.

I anxiously await explanations/discussion. (If this doesn't liven up
this thread, I doubt anything will.)

*Reaching for the fire-extinguisher, hoping it won't be needed*

Danyel Woods
9604801@********.ac.nz
Hi, I'm Chucky. Wanna play?
Message no. 10
From: Brett Borger <bxb121@***.EDU>
Subject: Re: Racism in SR (was Re: Humanis Contacts)
Date: Tue, 24 Mar 1998 16:59:51 EST
> Whenever one is shown an 'economically depressed' area in Shadowrun,
> it is usually populated by metahumans, predominantly the Goblinised.

True

> 'underclass'. Goblinisation Day, 2021, affected 10% of the
> population - all the population, not just the poor. Millionaires of
> all stripes would have been affected too. Would the banks foreclose
> on them just because they grew a foot taller and needed some serious
> dental work? Unlikely.

Okay, true. Now Look at the middle class. Here, Banks WOULD
foreclose. You'd lose your job, and not get hired elsewhere. On the
Night of Rage, metahumans were gathered up, and their properties
seized. Presumabably before that, before goblinization was
understood, they were quarantined, went through expensive medical
tests, etc.

So it is QUITE believable that in the course of a single generation
the metahumans would become the majority of the poor.

Now the second half of your question, the Why aren't the poor areas
also minority skin-colors? is harder to answer. My guess is that
FASA didn't want to have to mess with that. Besides, as they said,
who cares about the color of that guy's skin when that THING across
the bus from you has hands the size of your head?

-=SwiftOne=-
Some of my best friends are racists.

(J/k!)

>
> What I'm saying is, most of the socioeconomic difficulties of
> America's 'minorities' (not my term) appear to be inherited from
> past oppression or lack of citizenship. The so-called 'trogs' have
> no such history of oppression (they only appeared forty-odd years
> ago), so they would be less likely to have such ghettos.
>
> I anxiously await explanations/discussion. (If this doesn't liven
> up this thread, I doubt anything will.)
>
> *Reaching for the fire-extinguisher, hoping it won't be needed*
>
> Danyel Woods
> 9604801@********.ac.nz
> Hi, I'm Chucky. Wanna play?
Message no. 11
From: Robert Watkins <robert.watkins@******.COM>
Subject: Re: Racism in SR (was Re: Humanis Contacts)
Date: Wed, 25 Mar 1998 08:39:36 +1000
Daynel N Woods writes:
>Whenever one is shown an 'economically depressed' area in Shadowrun, it
>is usually populated by metahumans, predominantly the Goblinised. Now,
>admittedly I know nothing of America's race-relations problems other
>than what I see and hear on (and infer from) the news, but why are these
>areas like this? Example: the African-American and Hispanic-American
>areas of modern-day LA. Even given the upheavals of the intervening
>sixty years, the populations of those areas aren't going to change much,
>are they? The residents will be the children/grand-children of today's
>residents.

Not necessarilly. The Hispanics could well have been classed as Amerindians
of Aztec descent, and repatriated to Aztlan.

> The socio-economic makeup of America will still involve large
>areas of this 'underclass'. Goblinisation Day, 2021, affected 10% of
>the population - all the population, not just the poor. Millionaires of
>all stripes would have been affected too. Would the banks foreclose on
>them just because they grew a foot taller and needed some serious dental
>work? Unlikely.


It was 10% of the population, but it was not a uniform spread. Certain
groups of people (mostly ethnic groups) had a higher than normal expression
of goblinisation, which conversely means that others had a lower level of
goblinisation. Also, as mentioned in the Londong Source Book, a lot of the
upper crust families (old money, mainly) did away with the goblinised
relatives.

>What I'm saying is, most of the socioeconomic difficulties of America's
>'minorities' (not my term) appear to be inherited from past oppression
>or lack of citizenship. The so-called 'trogs' have no such history of
>oppression (they only appeared forty-odd years ago), so they would be
>less likely to have such ghettos.


The Night of Rage wouldn't have hurt... Think: Metahumans were dispossed of
their humans by the government, and rounded up into holding pens. All
assets, such as the family home, were taken away. Then many of them were
killed in those selfsame holding pens. The survivors have no money, no
home... no hope. Instant ghettos.

>I anxiously await explanations/discussion. (If this doesn't liven up
>this thread, I doubt anything will.)
Message no. 12
From: David Thompson <david.s.thompson@****.EDU>
Subject: Re: Racism in SR (was Re: Humanis Contacts)
Date: Tue, 24 Mar 1998 17:52:06 -0500
At 09:43 AM 3/25/98 +1200, Danyel N Woods <9604801@********.AC.NZ>
wrote:
>
>Now, everyone's made coherent, considered points on this, and the posts
>are getting their due consideration, but I'd just like to raise
>something semi-related that has always puzzled me:
>
>Whenever one is shown an 'economically depressed' area in Shadowrun, it
>is usually populated by metahumans, predominantly the Goblinised. Now,
>admittedly I know nothing of America's race-relations problems other
>than what I see and hear on (and infer from) the news, but why are these
>areas like this? Example: the African-American and Hispanic-American
>areas of modern-day LA. Even given the upheavals of the intervening
>sixty years, the populations of those areas aren't going to change much,
>are they? The residents will be the children/grand-children of today's
>residents. The socio-economic makeup of America will still involve large
>areas of this 'underclass'. Goblinisation Day, 2021, affected 10% of
>the population - all the population, not just the poor. Millionaires of
>all stripes would have been affected too. Would the banks foreclose on
>them just because they grew a foot taller and needed some serious dental
>work? Unlikely.
>
>What I'm saying is, most of the socioeconomic difficulties of America's
>'minorities' (not my term) appear to be inherited from past oppression
>or lack of citizenship. The so-called 'trogs' have no such history of
>oppression (they only appeared forty-odd years ago), so they would be
>less likely to have such ghettos.
>
>I anxiously await explanations/discussion. (If this doesn't liven up
>this thread, I doubt anything will.)

I think I've brought this up on the list before (months ago), but it
applies again.

A warning, it got a little long and boring. Sorry.
As my sociology prof said:
In a sociological discussion of the impoverished classes in the inner
cities of America, the african-american population is not the only group.
Historically, it was the most recent wave of immigrant that was thrust into
the inner city working dreary factory jobs and barely making a living.
They would, however, educate their children, and the children would then
move out of the ghetto and they would be replaced by the next wave of
immigrants. These waves went something like Irish, Italian, Eastern
European. Next came the african-americans, many of them moving up from the
south after emancipation, seeking jobs. A number of factors conspired to
trap much of the population at that point. Immigration numbers fell off,
and the jobs moved out of the inner cities. Factories were being moved out
of cities, and even out of the US. Other populations have moved through,
both hispanic and asian. The hispanic are often caught in the trap of
migrant farm workers, but many of the asian groups faired much differently,
and better. They would often form small and incredibly cohesive
communities, thereby assisting each other and suceeding economically within
a generation.

Now stops the history and starts SR:
goblinization. Due to the extreme reaction by many, orks and trolls were
thrust out of society, and the only choice was to sink to the bottom, and
their non-human children with them. This simply displaces those currently
occupying the bottom (as history has shown), therefore african-american
populations exit the barrens (no doubt making much more attractive workers
to any racist megacorp than a meta). The key in the past has been
education, and with racism keeping trolls and orks out of schools ("because
they are dumber, and would terrorize real humans" being the racist and
reactionary line) they would become the underclass, while corporations
would quickly embrace any real humans (no matter their color, and most
likely all with a SIN) in job-training programs. The entire makeup of the
American underclass has changed in the past with the influx of new
populations (just not recently), and it is entirely possible that
goblinization could force yet another shift.

--DT

Further Reading

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