Back to the main page

Mailing List Logs for ShadowRN

Message no. 1
From: Darth Vader <j07c@***.UNI-BREMEN.DE>
Subject: Racism-Sexism do they exist?
Date: Fri, 20 May 1994 11:51:44 +0100
Hoi Chummers, I recall reading in SRII that racism (As we know it
today) and sexism are not present in the world of SR. Racists
seem more concerned with the new meta-races and have forgotten
old hatreds. It sez something along those lines about sexism, I think
things like technology helping bridge the gap and the day to day
problems bla bla etc.

Well anyway It kinda hit me while I was reading 'Fade to black'
and 'Streets of Blood'. The main character in 'Fade to Black' is
a first rate male chauvinist, and 'streets os blood' gives us
a highly racist picture of England (the part about that Indian-
female-Orc Street Sam). What do you think about it chummers ?

--

Strong am I with the Force... but not that strong!
Twilight is upon me and soon night must fall.
That is the way of things ... the way of the Force.

GCS -d+@ -p+(---) c+++ l++ u+++ e+ m++(-) s+/ !n(---) h*(+) f+ !g w+ t+ r++ y?
Message no. 2
From: cabanc@******.WKU.EDU
Subject: Re: Racism-Sexism do they exist?
Date: Fri, 20 May 1994 10:55:22 EDT
Darth Vader <j07c@***.UNI-BREMEN.DE> writes:
>
> Hoi Chummers, I recall reading in SRII that racism (As we know it
> today) and sexism are not present in the world of SR. Racists
> seem more concerned with the new meta-races and have forgotten
> old hatreds.
Hmm, I always looked at it that the meta-races get
more, but the older prejudices still exist. i.e. a Klansman/Skin
head given a choice between beating up a orc or a black will beat up
on the orc then the black.

It sez something along those lines about sexism, I think
> things like technology helping bridge the gap and the day to day
> problems bla bla etc.
No way will sexism disapear in 70 years. Technology may
bridge the gap, but you can't change how men think. If it were
logical it wouldn't exist in the first place.

>
> Well anyway It kinda hit me while I was reading 'Fade to black'
> and 'Streets of Blood'. The main character in 'Fade to Black' is
> a first rate male chauvinist, and 'streets os blood' gives us
> a highly racist picture of England (the part about that Indian-
> female-Orc Street Sam). What do you think about it chummers ?
>
__-, ___ _________
__(__)|___ _______/ |________|
`----------|_______________---/ `----_____|___
( ___+-----------------<---------_____________-----_
`----- `-----------' | +---_/
candi cabaniss ____/__/___/_____
9780 morgantown rd. | ====== ||
bowling green, ky 42101 |_________________||
cabanc@******.wku.edu
Message no. 3
From: Chris Lubrecht <lubrecht@***.EDU>
Subject: Re: Racism-Sexism do they exist?
Date: Fri, 20 May 1994 12:10:00 -0400
Racisim on any terms exists in SR II. Racism is nor only limited to
humans. Wheter it is applied to Orks or humans it is still racism.
Sexism will always exist (*duck*), some people have a need to feel
better, stronger, faster ect, then someone else. Like it or not, men
will always dominate society based on educational history. Look at all
those nursery rhymes you learned as a kid, they are all male-centric,
citing women as being weak and dumb.
Your point on technology might make a difference. However, if the
difference between sexes is closed, then perhaps sexism might start
happening in the other direction (like
today...militant-feminists-diet-coke commercial)
I do not think either could ever disapear entirly.

Nigel
(grabbing water to put out thr flames)
Message no. 4
From: Micah Levy <M.Levy@**.UCL.AC.UK>
Subject: Re: Racism-Sexism do they exist?
Date: Fri, 20 May 1994 19:24:52 +0100
Interestingly enough, one of my group at the moment plays a quebecois who
absolutely abhors Native Americans but will tolerate the meta-races. He calls
shamanism 'sham'inism and as a mage this does not make him very popular with
the native shaman. ho hum.
Message no. 5
From: Ivy Ryan <ivyryan@***.ORG>
Subject: Re: Racism-Sexism do they exist?
Date: Fri, 20 May 1994 17:18:41 -0700
On Fri, 20 May 1994 cabanc@******.WKU.EDU wrote:

> Darth Vader <j07c@***.UNI-BREMEN.DE> writes:
> >
> > Hoi Chummers, I recall reading in SRII that racism (As we know it
> > today) and sexism are not present in the world of SR. Racists
> > seem more concerned with the new meta-races and have forgotten
> > old hatreds.
> Hmm, I always looked at it that the meta-races get
> more, but the older prejudices still exist. i.e. a Klansman/Skin
> head given a choice between beating up a orc or a black will beat up
> on the orc then the black.
>
> It sez something along those lines about sexism, I think
> > things like technology helping bridge the gap and the day to day
> > problems bla bla etc.
> No way will sexism disapear in 70 years. Technology may
> bridge the gap, but you can't change how men think. If it were
> logical it wouldn't exist in the first place.
>
> >
> > Well anyway It kinda hit me while I was reading 'Fade to black'
> > and 'Streets of Blood'. The main character in 'Fade to Black' is
> > a first rate male chauvinist, and 'streets os blood' gives us
> > a highly racist picture of England (the part about that Indian-
> > female-Orc Street Sam). What do you think about it chummers ?
> >
> __-, ___ _________
> __(__)|___ _______/ |________|
> `----------|_______________---/ `----_____|___
> ( ___+-----------------<---------_____________-----_
> `----- `-----------' | +---_/
> candi cabaniss ____/__/___/_____
> 9780 morgantown rd. | ====== ||
> bowling green, ky 42101 |_________________||
> cabanc@******.wku.edu
>
Well, candi,
I agree, racism and sexism will still be with the world in 2055.
Another problem I have, along those lines, and caused by the same people,
is the idea that christianity, or normal muslim, will accept magic. No
way, jose! They have been persecuting mages, witches, shaman, and
everything else for so long there is no way they are going to "accept"
magic peacefully. Or at all.
Ivy K
Message no. 6
From: "C. Paul Douglas" <granite@*****.NET>
Subject: Re: Racism-Sexism do they exist?
Date: Sat, 21 May 1994 10:09:33 -0400
On Fri, 20 May 1994, Ivy Ryan wrote:
> Well, candi,
> I agree, racism and sexism will still be with the world in 2055.
> Another problem I have, along those lines, and caused by the same people,
> is the idea that christianity, or normal muslim, will accept magic. No
> way, jose! They have been persecuting mages, witches, shaman, and
> everything else for so long there is no way they are going to "accept"
> magic peacefully. Or at all.
> Ivy K
>
Now I can't comment on muslim but...as far as Christianity goes I feel
qualified to comment..In order to believe in to bible one must believe to
a certain extent in a kind of mystical power that allows for resurection,
asexual reproduction, healing of wounds and illness, parting of great
volumes of water, transformation of human flesh into salt..to name only a
few of the more magic related events of the bible...Now I have been to
some Evangelical churchs that as a regular part of their service have
people speaking in toungues [I can't spell] and the laying on of hands
where people profess to be healed instantly afterwards...So I don't think
that magic would be too hard to reconcile in many cases...
---------------------------------GRANITE
Message no. 7
From: Gian-Paolo Musumeci <musumeci@***.LIS.UIUC.EDU>
Subject: Re: Racism-Sexism do they exist?
Date: Sat, 21 May 1994 09:11:38 -0500
Then again, the Bible also says that you are to cast out the mages and witches
in your midst...

It works both ways, and for the past 1600 years or so (since the fall of the
Roman Empire) Western 'civilization' has been persecuting those who do not
follow mainstream religions (ie -- Roman Christianity)...so is 1600 years of
tradition going to change in 60 years?

Hard for me to see.
Message no. 8
From: "C. Paul Douglas" <granite@*****.NET>
Subject: Re: Racism-Sexism do they exist?
Date: Sat, 21 May 1994 10:23:48 -0400
On Sat, 21 May 1994, Gian-Paolo Musumeci wrote:

> Then again, the Bible also says that you are to cast out the mages and witches
> in your midst...
>
This is one of those places I think that the deffinition of the words has
changed...However, I can say that If I were to suddenly attain magical
ability I would feel it to be a gift from God not a power with its source
in blacker realms...And I believe that it is the source of the powers
that were professed by the mages and witches [which may have been priests
and priestess of other religions] that doomed them to persecution...

...... Western 'civilization' has been persecuting those who do not
> follow mainstream religions (ie -- Roman Christianity)...so is 1600 years of
> tradition going to change in 60 years?
>
Well - without getting personal - I am not nor do I intend to become a
Roman Catholic and I have nor met with any persecution yet...Nor have
those that I knew were Catholic [of whatever variety] been persecuted
[that I know of anyway]....But I think this discussion gets off the
subject...And I think that during those 1600 years things and attitudes
have changed..Afterall I haven't seen a good witch burning in weeks.....
----------------------GRANITE
Message no. 9
From: Gian-Paolo Musumeci <musumeci@***.LIS.UIUC.EDU>
Subject: Re: Racism-Sexism do they exist?
Date: Sat, 21 May 1994 09:35:08 -0500
Okay, say you were a teenage kid, say about 17, who wanted to tell his/her
conservative Roman Catholic parents he was Wiccan. This might not be fun.
Message no. 10
From: Ivy Ryan <ivyryan@***.ORG>
Subject: Re: Racism-Sexism do they exist?
Date: Sat, 21 May 1994 07:33:10 -0700
On Sat, 21 May 1994, C. Paul Douglas wrote:

> On Fri, 20 May 1994, Ivy Ryan wrote:
> > Well, candi,
> > I agree, racism and sexism will still be with the world in 2055.
> > Another problem I have, along those lines, and caused by the same people,
> > is the idea that christianity, or normal muslim, will accept magic. No
> > way, jose! They have been persecuting mages, witches, shaman, and
> > everything else for so long there is no way they are going to "accept"
> > magic peacefully. Or at all.
> > Ivy K
> >
> Now I can't comment on muslim but...as far as Christianity goes I feel
> qualified to comment..In order to believe in to bible one must believe to
> a certain extent in a kind of mystical power that allows for resurection,
> asexual reproduction, healing of wounds and illness, parting of great
> volumes of water, transformation of human flesh into salt..to name only a
> few of the more magic related events of the bible...Now I have been to
> some Evangelical churchs that as a regular part of their service have
> people speaking in toungues [I can't spell] and the laying on of hands
> where people profess to be healed instantly afterwards...So I don't think
> that magic would be too hard to reconcile in many cases...
> ---------------------------------GRANITE
>
Christianity, as far as I have been able to find out (I'm not
christian) allows *Miracles* but absolutely *bans* (with the death
penalty) magic. Magic is supposed to be a tool of their devil while
miracles are given by their god. That is what I got from some
Comparative Religion classes, I have nothing else to go by. I *do* know
that the bible has the words "Thou shalt not suffer a Witch to live"
though and I also know that it is sometimes written "Thou shalt not
suffer a Priestess to live." I'm a Priestess, so I may have an
unfriendly take on the subject.:)
Ivy K
Message no. 11
From: Ivy Ryan <ivyryan@***.ORG>
Subject: Re: Racism-Sexism do they exist?
Date: Sat, 21 May 1994 07:35:24 -0700
On Sat, 21 May 1994, Gian-Paolo Musumeci wrote:

> Then again, the Bible also says that you are to cast out the mages and witches
> in your midst...
>
> It works both ways, and for the past 1600 years or so (since the fall of the
> Roman Empire) Western 'civilization' has been persecuting those who do not
> follow mainstream religions (ie -- Roman Christianity)...so is 1600 years of
> tradition going to change in 60 years?
>
> Hard for me to see.
>
Thank you Gian-Paolo,
I was pretty sure that it was in there, but I don't own a bible
(wouldn't do me any good, might do me harm, I'm pagan, and a Priestess.)
so I was hoping that someone would post it.
Ivy K
Message no. 12
From: Ivy Ryan <ivyryan@***.ORG>
Subject: Re: Racism-Sexism do they exist?
Date: Sat, 21 May 1994 07:36:31 -0700
On Sat, 21 May 1994, Gian-Paolo Musumeci wrote:

> Then again, the Bible also says that you are to cast out the mages and witches
> in your midst...
>
> It works both ways, and for the past 1600 years or so (since the fall of the
> Roman Empire) Western 'civilization' has been persecuting those who do not
> follow mainstream religions (ie -- Roman Christianity)...so is 1600 years of
> tradition going to change in 60 years?
>
> Hard for me to see.
>
From Comparative Religion I seem to remember that they also have
a lot of hard words for women too.
Ivy K
Message no. 13
From: Ivy Ryan <ivyryan@***.ORG>
Subject: Re: Racism-Sexism do they exist?
Date: Sat, 21 May 1994 07:45:54 -0700
On Sat, 21 May 1994, C. Paul Douglas wrote:

> On Sat, 21 May 1994, Gian-Paolo Musumeci wrote:
>
> > Then again, the Bible also says that you are to cast out the mages and witches
> > in your midst...
> >
> This is one of those places I think that the deffinition of the words has
> changed...However, I can say that If I were to suddenly attain magical
> ability I would feel it to be a gift from God not a power with its source
> in blacker realms...And I believe that it is the source of the powers
> that were professed by the mages and witches [which may have been priests
> and priestess of other religions] that doomed them to persecution...

If the definition has changed, re-write the book to show that.
Otherwise we pagans are going to take you at your words.

>
> ...... Western 'civilization' has been persecuting those who do not
> > follow mainstream religions (ie -- Roman Christianity)...so is 1600 years of
> > tradition going to change in 60 years?
> >
> Well - without getting personal - I am not nor do I intend to become a
> Roman Catholic and I have nor met with any persecution yet...Nor have
> those that I knew were Catholic [of whatever variety] been persecuted
> [that I know of anyway]....But I think this discussion gets off the
> subject...And I think that during those 1600 years things and attitudes
> have changed..Afterall I haven't seen a good witch burning in weeks.....
> ----------------------GRANITE
>
You are christian. Obviously. The christians were *doing* the
persecuting, not being persecuted. Catholics, Protestants, methodists,
lutherans, puritans, all of them were burning witches. The last witch
burning I know of happened in 1968 and the last attacks on witches and
mages was this morning on christian television.
That resivor of hatred isn't going to "dry-up" in 60 years just
because magic returns to the world. The christians will think their god
gave them the power to do miracles, and the rest of us will know it's
just natural magic returning. And I'll bet the christians will try to
start another pogrom.
Ivy K
Message no. 14
From: Tim Skirvin <tskirvin@********.UNI.UIUC.EDU>
Subject: Re: Racism-Sexism do they exist?
Date: Sat, 21 May 1994 10:39:41 -0500
Basically, though, no matter HOW the chruches nowadays are, the changes
made in Shadowrun are GOING to make a differnce to them. The reaction of
Ireland to the Catholic Church's edicts (they dropped the church once they were
told that their kids were evil perversions...do you blame them?) was pretty
realistic, I'd say.

Even the chruch realizes that saying that magic is evil and such is
going to alienate most of the world...

-------------Tim Skirvin (tskirvin@********.uni.uiuc.edu-------------
"He's NOT a gibbering idiot - he's cured of gibbering, he's just an
idiot now." -- Jane, "Waiting for God"
Message no. 15
From: Bryan Prince <WALAB@******.HH.VANDERBILT.EDU>
Subject: Re: Racism-Sexism do they exist?
Date: Sat, 21 May 1994 10:57:36 -0600
OK, People, listen up. If you will read your SR and SRII, you will find
that FASA deals with Magic and the Church, at least from a Catholic
viewpoint. The Magic is not 'evil' or an 'abomination' but it is judged
on the use to which it is put. This allows priests to use magic for
exorcisims (sp?), ect. Human History, not just Religious History is
full of examples of one group hating another, making that group a scape-
goat, and justifying a genocidal campaign with their hatred.
This is unfortunate truth (i.e. Night(s) of Rage,ect.). Lets keep this
discussion in the realms of SR, ok? List religions that have taken s
a stance in your campaigns, to help round things out. Please don't
use the list as a bashing board. And please don't read this as a flame,
I'm just trying to contribute a rational viewpoint in the midst of what
I've been reading.
Hope I've not offended anyone with this, but if I have I Apologise.
Bryan Prince
Message no. 16
From: Ivy Ryan <ivyryan@***.ORG>
Subject: Re: Racism-Sexism do they exist?
Date: Sat, 21 May 1994 22:47:41 -0700
On Sat, 21 May 1994, Gian-Paolo Musumeci wrote:

> Okay, say you were a teenage kid, say about 17, who wanted to tell his/her
> conservative Roman Catholic parents he was Wiccan. This might not be fun.
>
No Joke, not at all. I have known a couple. One got disowned.
Ivy K
Message no. 17
From: Ivy Ryan <ivyryan@***.ORG>
Subject: Re: Racism-Sexism do they exist?
Date: Sat, 21 May 1994 23:20:38 -0700
On Sat, 21 May 1994, Tim Skirvin wrote:

> Basically, though, no matter HOW the chruches nowadays are, the changes
> made in Shadowrun are GOING to make a differnce to them. The reaction of
> Ireland to the Catholic Church's edicts (they dropped the church once they were
> told that their kids were evil perversions...do you blame them?) was pretty
> realistic, I'd say.
>
> Even the chruch realizes that saying that magic is evil and such is
> going to alienate most of the world...
>
I'm not sanguine about that Tim, they have been saving that magic
is evil for 2,000 years now. I don't think they;ll change in the next 60
years. Look at the track record.

I did like the way the catholic church was handled in Tir na n0g
though. I'm not sure that it would go that way, but it did sound good.
Ivy K
Message no. 18
From: Ivy Ryan <ivyryan@***.ORG>
Subject: Re: Racism-Sexism do they exist?
Date: Sat, 21 May 1994 23:42:12 -0700
On Sat, 21 May 1994, Bryan Prince wrote:

> OK, People, listen up. If you will read your SR and SRII, you will find
> that FASA deals with Magic and the Church, at least from a Catholic
> viewpoint. The Magic is not 'evil' or an 'abomination' but it is judged
> on the use to which it is put. This allows priests to use magic for
> exorcisims (sp?), ect. Human History, not just Religious History is
> full of examples of one group hating another, making that group a scape-
> goat, and justifying a genocidal campaign with their hatred.
> This is unfortunate truth (i.e. Night(s) of Rage,ect.). Lets keep this
> discussion in the realms of SR, ok? List religions that have taken s
> a stance in your campaigns, to help round things out. Please don't
> use the list as a bashing board. And please don't read this as a flame,
> I'm just trying to contribute a rational viewpoint in the midst of what
> I've been reading.
> Hope I've not offended anyone with this, but if I have I Apologise.
> Bryan Prince
>
Actually, Bryan, I think this *has* been a rational discussion of
whether the christian, muslim, and jewish religions would *really* have
decided to allow magic so easily.
In my world the millenianist fighting was just dying down when
magic became obvious. That kicked over another bucket of worms that
hasn't quit wiggling as of 2055.
Unitarians Accept magic and shamanism
Mainline christianity (catholic, methodist, lutheran,
presbyterian, protestant) accepts priestly "miracles" and train priests
but no "mages" and definitely no shamans.
fundamentalist christians (baptist, church of god, four square
other major fundamentalist) No magic, No shamans No metahumans, but they
aren't openly burning them anymore.
revivalist christians (various groups from jehovah's witnesses on)
Burn them all! Mages, shaman, metahumans, to the stake with them!
mormons: NOT in Ute nation, back in Pennsylvania instead. Very
anti meta, magic, shaman but not openly burning them.
jews: more restrictive than SRII but not burning anyone.
muslims: sunni; anti-meta, magic, shaman, violently.
shiite; as above, but really violent (stoning, mostly,
with small stones)
The other major muslim (sorry, my mind slipped on me, I
can't remember their names, and they're on my hard-drive so I can't look
em up) Anyway, they're pro magic, anti shaman, metahuman
Hindu; pro-,agic, anti meta, iffy on shaman, anti weisse.
(everyone that's anti shaman is even more anti-weisse)
buddist; comme-ca, but don't be a meta. varies by country.
shinto; anti meta, shaman, very pro magic
most of africa; no people, no problem
east africa; anti-patriarchel, pro meta, magic, shaman, weisse
and very pro-Goddess as their's returned.
That's how it is in my world,
Ivy K
PS: My outlook comes from having been a practicing Priestess for
almost 30 years now. I've seen the attitudes from the outside of the
patriarchy, not the inside.
Message no. 19
From: Ivy Ryan <ivyryan@***.ORG>
Subject: Re: Racism-Sexism do they exist?
Date: Sat, 21 May 1994 23:44:46 -0700
On Sat, 21 May 1994, Bryan Prince wrote:

> OK, People, listen up. If you will read your SR and SRII, you will find
> that FASA deals with Magic and the Church, at least from a Catholic
> viewpoint. The Magic is not 'evil' or an 'abomination' but it is judged
> on the use to which it is put. This allows priests to use magic for
> exorcisims (sp?), ect. Human History, not just Religious History is
> full of examples of one group hating another, making that group a scape-
> goat, and justifying a genocidal campaign with their hatred.
> This is unfortunate truth (i.e. Night(s) of Rage,ect.). Lets keep this
> discussion in the realms of SR, ok? List religions that have taken s
> a stance in your campaigns, to help round things out. Please don't
> use the list as a bashing board. And please don't read this as a flame,
> I'm just trying to contribute a rational viewpoint in the midst of what
> I've been reading.
> Hope I've not offended anyone with this, but if I have I Apologise.
> Bryan Prince
>
Oh, yes, I forgot.
I am quite aware of what FASA says is the situation. The
conversation was as to the reasonablness of the official word. Some of
us do not think that the FASA version is realistic. I'm definitely one
of the disbelievers.
You didn't hurt my feelings though.
Ivy K
Message no. 20
From: Tim Skirvin <tskirvin@********.UNI.UIUC.EDU>
Subject: Re: Racism-Sexism do they exist?
Date: Sun, 22 May 1994 11:07:04 -0500
> I'm not sanguine about that Tim, they have been saving that
> magic is evil for 2,000 years now. I don't think they;ll change in
> the next 60 years. Look at the track record.

They've been saying that magic is evil for 2000 years, but now they
finally SEE magic. And it did take them a while to change...long enough to
realize that condemning it was quite dumb...

The first three books go into it too. That was a pretty strange ele-
ment...

-------------Tim Skirvin (tskirvin@********.uni.uiuc.edu-------------
"He's NOT a gibbering idiot - he's cured of gibbering, he's just an
idiot now." -- Jane, "Waiting for God"
Message no. 21
From: Gian-Paolo Musumeci <musumeci@***.LIS.UIUC.EDU>
Subject: Re: Racism-Sexism do they exist?
Date: Sun, 22 May 1994 12:21:05 -0500
60 years is NOT quite a while for the Roman Catholic Church.

Pray tell, just -how- late was Vatican II again?
Message no. 22
From: Tim Skirvin <tskirvin@********.UNI.UIUC.EDU>
Subject: Re: Racism-Sexism do they exist?
Date: Sun, 22 May 1994 16:51:45 -0500
> 60 years is NOT quite a while for the Roman Catholic Church.

Maybe so, but how about 60 years of new magic? This is a BIG deal
for the world...

My point? They're going to be FORCED to change. Or else they
lose. The church IS mostly political...

-------------Tim Skirvin (tskirvin@********.uni.uiuc.edu-------------
"He's NOT a gibbering idiot - he's cured of gibbering, he's just an
idiot now." -- Jane, "Waiting for God"
Message no. 23
From: Stainless Steel Rat <ratinox@***.NEU.EDU>
Subject: Re: Racism-Sexism do they exist?
Date: Sun, 22 May 1994 19:32:46 -0400
>>>>> "Gian-Paolo" == Gian-Paolo Musumeci
<musumeci@***.LIS.UIUC.EDU>
>>>>> writes:

Gian-Paolo> 60 years is NOT quite a while for the Roman Catholic Church.

Depends on what's at stake. If 35 percent of your congregation suddenly
manifests some form of magic, from UGE to full-fledged Shamanism, I'd bet
anything that you'd take a really good look at the situation and come to a
decision quickly.

In the case of Shadowrun, the RCC decided that magic, just like technology,
is a tool, and it is the intent that determines whether the action is a
sin. The more fundamental Christian sects/cults are taking a more hard-
nosed, literal stance (so what else is new... these are the people who
think that gathering up all the non-fundamentalist Christians in the world
and executing them would be a good thing).

I should point out that within the RCC today, "magic" isn't necessarilly
evil, per se, as exorcisms are a ritual sometimes used in rather extreme
cases, and miracles, by definition, can happen.

\||| | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | |||/
== Rat <ratinox@***.neu.edu> WWW Page: http://www.ccs.neu.edu/home/ratinox ==
== "Regis Philbin?" Some kind of plant? --Kwai Chang Caine ==
/||| | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | |||\
Message no. 24
From: Gian-Paolo Musumeci <musumeci@***.LIS.UIUC.EDU>
Subject: Re: Racism-Sexism do they exist?
Date: Sun, 22 May 1994 18:42:30 -0500
Skirv, are you Roman Catholic?

Guess what? I (supposedly) am.

I think I have a bit more of an insight into this, and the Church DOES NOT LIKE
CHANGE.

Sorry if this sounds like a flame.
Message no. 25
From: Tim Skirvin <tskirvin@********.UNI.UIUC.EDU>
Subject: Re: Racism-Sexism do they exist?
Date: Sun, 22 May 1994 20:06:45 -0500
> Skirv, are you Roman Catholic?

God, no <grin>.

> Guess what? I (supposedly) am.

Mega supposedly.

> I think I have a bit more of an insight into this, and the Church
> DOES NOT LIKE CHANGE.

But how are they going to react if, say 10% of all members are suddenly
either a different race or are magically adept, and then 40% more are connected
in some way to that other 10%?

In other words, you're going to look REALLY bad if you lose half
your members because you won't make a snap judgement (and it's not like they
did, either, G-P...they first lost Ireland and piles of other stuff, and
THEN finally gave the edict that magic was OK).

> Sorry if this sounds like a flame.

You DARE flame me?

<Grin>

-------------Tim Skirvin (tskirvin@********.uni.uiuc.edu-------------
"He's NOT a gibbering idiot - he's cured of gibbering, he's just an
idiot now." -- Jane, "Waiting for God"
Message no. 26
From: Gian-Paolo Musumeci <musumeci@***.LIS.UIUC.EDU>
Subject: Re: Racism-Sexism do they exist?
Date: Sun, 22 May 1994 20:31:51 -0500
I still think that the Church would say, as it always has, that the declarations
on magic are made from the Throne of Peter and are therefore infallible. Guess
again, Skirv. ;-)

Supposedly? Heh. Try "because my parents say so."
Message no. 27
From: Tim Skirvin <tskirvin@********.UNI.UIUC.EDU>
Subject: Re: Racism-Sexism do they exist?
Date: Sun, 22 May 1994 20:35:26 -0500
> I still think that the Church would say, as it always has, that the
> declarations
>
> on magic are made from the Throne of Peter and are therefore
> infallible. Guess again, Skirv. ;-)

They did. Then they lost all access to Ireland, and major portion of
the rest of the world. Plus, some of their higher priests were mages and
such (I can understand not allowing shamans for them, but I think that they'd
give up on hermetics [especially hermetic sorcery adepts] after a while, much
like they did with science...sortof). What would YOU do in that situation...
reinterpret your Bible, or declare that 50% of the world was evil (more than
before).

> Supposedly? Heh. Try "because my parents say so."

Works for me. And, scarily, it's actually correct too...

-------------Tim Skirvin (tskirvin@********.uni.uiuc.edu-------------
"He's NOT a gibbering idiot - he's cured of gibbering, he's just an
idiot now." -- Jane, "Waiting for God"
Message no. 28
From: Gian-Paolo Musumeci <musumeci@***.LIS.UIUC.EDU>
Subject: Re: Racism-Sexism do they exist?
Date: Sun, 22 May 1994 21:21:00 -0500
I still think that the Church would not have been quite so open to change. Oh
boy. They lose Ireland. Wheeeeee! The Church still has a massive following
especially if they play on anti-magery sentiments. How do you think the Church
managed to pull off the Inquisition? Times were bad, blame it on the withces,
er, witches, burn them at the stake...

(No offense intended to you, Ivy *smile*)

The Church might look at it as a sign of the "Second Coming" -- if you believe
that.
Message no. 29
From: "David L. Hoff" <DLHOFF@****.WISC.EDU>
Subject: Re: Racism-Sexism do they exist?
Date: Sun, 22 May 1994 23:15:00 CDT
Ok, I tried, I really, really tried not to post on this subject, but...

Concerning religion and change, five years ago I would not have predicted some
religions allowing female priests/pastors, yet there have been some ones
recently (I think the church of England?) who now allow females.

Concerning the persecution of evil, etc: In recent history, there have been
lots of stories in the news about priests of different religions who are
child abusers, pedophiles, etc. In my opinion, if the church wanted to burn
someone at the stake, I would these people would be prime candidates. But they
dont do it. They usually try and hush it up. Why? Because they don't want to
admit that one of their ordained priests could be evil. So, lets take this to
the SR world. You suddenly have priests, pastors, "well respected members
of the church", etc who are going through goblinization, becoming magically
active, etc. I would think that they would _have_ to accept it. Maybe not until
some zealots tried to murder half a congregation, and the rest of the
congregation fights back, but it would happen.

Another thing going in the favor of religions changing is that many people who
I know that are members of a church are not exactly "perfect". For example,
many churches look the other way if a couple that is going to be married has
had sexual relations before the marriage, because there are a _lot_ of people
who have, and if the church made a huge deal about it, they would lose lots
of support.

I do not want this to sound like _all_ religions are going to accept it, or
that the change will come quickly or peacably. I am just saying that there
are many religions that will accept it eventually, because they will have to
accept it, or die out.

--David L. Hoff
dlhoff@****.wisc.edu
Message no. 30
From: "Seth A. Buntain" <enthar@***.EDU>
Subject: Re: Racism-Sexism do they exist?
Date: Mon, 23 May 1994 12:15:17 -0500
However:
> Hindu; pro-,agic, anti meta, iffy on shaman, anti weisse.
> (everyone that's anti shaman is even more anti-weisse)
> buddist; comme-ca, but don't be a meta. varies by country.

Buddist philosophy would be very hippocritcal if they rejected meta
humans. I think perhaps you are mistaking the prejudices of the eastern
peoples with the prejudices of the philosophy.
Both Buddists and Hindi come from ancient Indian belief systems. If you look
at those old texts (like the Mahabartha (sp?) especially for the Hindu) you
can find Monkey men, Blue people, alongside you heroes or even _as_ your
heroes.

Of course, std.dsclmr applies. Not a history, philosophy, or comparative
religion major, but Ive been exposed to Hindu and Buddist philosophy most of
my life.

> That's how it is in my world,
> Ivy K
> PS: My outlook comes from having been a practicing Priestess for
> almost 30 years now. I've seen the attitudes from the outside of the
> patriarchy, not the inside.
>

--
Seth Buntain | "You will find that a great many of the truths
Enthar the Eternal | that we cling to depend greatly on our own point
email: enthar@***.edu | of view" --Obi Wan Kenobi
(V 1.01) GE d -p+ c++ l u e+(*) m(++) s/- !n h- f+ g- w+ t+(++) r+(++) !y
"It's a damn poor man who can't spell a wyrd in more than one way!"
-Thomas Jefferson
My opinions, comments and even facts are all mine.
Message no. 31
From: Ivy Ryan <ivyryan@***.ORG>
Subject: Re: Racism-Sexism do they exist?
Date: Mon, 23 May 1994 11:50:28 -0700
N

On Sun, 22 May 1994, Tim Skirvin wrote:

> > I'm not sanguine about that Tim, they have been saving that
> > magic is evil for 2,000 years now. I don't think they;ll change in
> > the next 60 years. Look at the track record.
>
> They've been saying that magic is evil for 2000 years, but now they
> finally SEE magic. And it did take them a while to change...long enough to
> realize that condemning it was quite dumb...
>
> The first three books go into it too. That was a pretty strange ele-
> ment...
>
> I haven't read any of the fiction. Deirdre read quite a ffew of
them and gave it up as a bad job. I don't bother to read "flack-fiction"
because it just flacks for the game. I learned that back with the first
of the FASA "novelizations" by Charrette.
OTOH, whilst I think that all of us in the original conversation
*knew* what FASA *said* was the case vis a vis the religions, the
conversation was about the chances to FASA's publications being *accurate*.
That is the only question. Were they accurate, or were they
covering their butts to keep the anti-gamers off their necks. I think
they were covering. You are welcome to the argument, just please, let's
argue the subject.
Ivy K
Message no. 32
From: Ivy Ryan <ivyryan@***.ORG>
Subject: Re: Racism-Sexism do they exist?
Date: Mon, 23 May 1994 14:01:54 -0700
On Sun, 22 May 1994, Tim Skirvin wrote:

> > 60 years is NOT quite a while for the Roman Catholic Church.
>
> Maybe so, but how about 60 years of new magic? This is a BIG deal
> for the world...

Not big enough, by the track record. Really.

>
> My point? They're going to be FORCED to change. Or else they
> lose. The church IS mostly political...

Actually, they'll lose. Whether they change or not, the end is
written. SRII Rulebook, pg.147, left column, 1st paragraph. The spirit
will exist for (Essence) hours after death. . . No, afterlife, No
Reincarnation, No nothing. Ergo, the end of the religions. There's
another comment that says the same thing in Tir na n0g, written by Ehran
the Scribe. And, to make it worse, it's *common* knowledge. All the
religions are dying, the current generation of followers is probably the
last for most of them. Some will survive as co-ops for help for each
other, but as religions, they're doomed.
Ivy K
Message no. 33
From: Ivy Ryan <ivyryan@***.ORG>
Subject: Re: Racism-Sexism do they exist?
Date: Mon, 23 May 1994 14:11:21 -0700
Rat, Miracles, yes! Magic, no!
But all religions are dying anyway. Why, you ask? Because all
religions promise some "better life" after death.
Why are they dying?
SRII Rulebook, pg.147, left column, 1st paragraph. "The spirit
lasts (Essence) hours after the death of the body."
But, given the historical facts of the major religions over the
last two thousand years, they will try, in order.
1) Ignore it, maybe it'll go away.
2) Kill them all!
3) Steal as much of it as they can use, and forbid the laity to
use any of it.
4) Grudgingly accept it (In my world the Unitarians are at this point)
5) Go crazy with it.
It would take the mainstream religions about 300 years to get to
step 4, and they are all dying *now*, so it's back to covert war against
the heathen, idolatrous, shaman and Weisse, and some preaching against
those devil's children, the mages.
But, that's *my* world.
Ivy K
Message no. 34
From: Ivy Ryan <ivyryan@***.ORG>
Subject: Re: Racism-Sexism do they exist?
Date: Mon, 23 May 1994 14:20:20 -0700
On Sun, 22 May 1994, Gian-Paolo Musumeci wrote:

> I still think that the Church would not have been quite so open to change. Oh
> boy. They lose Ireland. Wheeeeee! The Church still has a massive following
> especially if they play on anti-magery sentiments. How do you think the Church
> managed to pull off the Inquisition? Times were bad, blame it on the withces,
> er, witches, burn them at the stake...

The 'Hatred" card has always been the favored move for the
patriarchs and they will use it in this case. Less than one percent of
the population is a mage, right. Perfect targets for a hate campaign.
Shadowbeat even gives examples of professional anti-mage and anti-shaman
propaganda.

> (No offense intended to you, Ivy *smile*)

None taken, G-P. :)

> The Church might look at it as a sign of the "Second Coming" -- if you
believe
> that.

Well, that is something that FASA didn't mention. And should
have. The time from 1999 to 2010 is gonna be pretty crazy with
Millenialist stuff anyway. All of christianity is expecting a return
right around that time. Too dangerous for FASA to touch, of course, but.
. .
I used it in the timeline for my world. Fighting started in
midsummer 2002 and continued till 2012 with some still goin on.
Everybody blamed everyone for the lack of any return.
I have a lot of the 'real world' in my game. I just went by what
has already happened, and built from there.
Ivy K
Message no. 35
From: Robert Watkins <bob@**.NTU.EDU.AU>
Subject: Re: Racism-Sexism do they exist?
Date: Tue, 24 May 1994 14:31:30 +0930
> Actually, they'll lose. Whether they change or not, the end is
> written. SRII Rulebook, pg.147, left column, 1st paragraph. The spirit
> will exist for (Essence) hours after death. . . No, afterlife, No
> Reincarnation, No nothing. Ergo, the end of the religions. There's
> another comment that says the same thing in Tir na n0g, written by Ehran
> the Scribe. And, to make it worse, it's *common* knowledge. All the
> religions are dying, the current generation of followers is probably the
> last for most of them. Some will survive as co-ops for help for each
> other, but as religions, they're doomed.

Actually, one religion seems to be flourishing, if you read the books.

The Church Of The Whole Earth, Inc.

As to what they say about the afterlife, I dunno.
Also, just because it's common knowledge that the spirit doesn't stick
around for more than a few hours after death may not kill religion. After
all, where does it go?? That has been the question for a long time.

--
Robert Watkins bob@**.ntu.edu.au
Real Programmers never work 9 to 5. If any real programmers are around at 9 am,
it's because they were up all night.
Message no. 36
From: Tim Skirvin <tskirvin@********.UNI.UIUC.EDU>
Subject: Re: Racism-Sexism do they exist?
Date: Tue, 24 May 1994 15:13:24 -0500
> Actually, they'll lose. Whether they change or not, the
> end is written. SRII Rulebook, pg.147, left column, 1st paragraph.
> The spirit

You know, this sounds REALLY funny in this discussion. "And Dowd
spake 'so the church will die, and there will be lots of revolts, and a big
dragon will come down and devour everyone whole'. And there was much rejoi-
cing". <grin>

Anyway, you're probably right that, in the game, the current religions
are dying. However, that's not to say that ALL relgions are dying...there will
probably be plenty of new offshoots of Christianity, and the Universial Brother-
hood will exist for a while...people that try to explain the magic with their
own faith or something...

People WANT to believe in something.

-------------Tim Skirvin (tskirvin@********.uni.uiuc.edu-------------
"He's NOT a gibbering idiot - he's cured of gibbering, he's just an
idiot now." -- Jane, "Waiting for God"
Message no. 37
From: Tim Skirvin <tskirvin@********.UNI.UIUC.EDU>
Subject: Re: Racism-Sexism do they exist?
Date: Tue, 24 May 1994 15:22:41 -0500
> Actually, one religion seems to be flourishing, if you read the
> books.
>
> The Church Of The Whole Earth, Inc.

Don't forget NERPS. It's the ULTIMATE problem solver...

NERPS for religion.

- Tim Skirvin
Message no. 38
From: Neal A Porter <nap@*****.PHYSICS.SWIN.OZ.AU>
Subject: Re: Racism-Sexism do they exist?
Date: Wed, 25 May 1994 14:23:22 +1000
> You are christian. Obviously. The christians were *doing* the
>persecuting, not being persecuted. Catholics, Protestants, methodists,
>lutherans, puritans, all of them were burning witches. The last witch
>burning I know of happened in 1968 and the last attacks on witches and
>mages was this morning on christian television.
> That resivor of hatred isn't going to "dry-up" in 60 years just
>because magic returns to the world. The christians will think their god
>gave them the power to do miracles, and the rest of us will know it's
>just natural magic returning. And I'll bet the christians will try to
>start another pogrom.
> Ivy K
>

Before you get to worried about a pogrom in SR, remember what happened
to Tehran. Thats how the Sixth world punishes those who refuse to except
that it exists.

A'Deus.
Message no. 39
From: Chris Lubrecht <lubrecht@***.EDU>
Subject: Re: Racism-Sexism do they exist?
Date: Wed, 25 May 1994 09:10:37 -0400
On Wed, 25 May 1994, Neal A Porter wrote:

> > You are christian. Obviously. The christians were *doing* the
> >persecuting, not being persecuted. Catholics, Protestants, methodists,
> >lutherans, puritans, all of them were burning witches. The last witch
> >burning I know of happened in 1968 and the last attacks on witches and
> >mages was this morning on christian television.
> > That resivor of hatred isn't going to "dry-up" in 60 years

Actually I disagree. While religious persecution is evedent in all world
religions, (or at least the major ones), the leaders of these religions
have at least conditioned their followers. The leaders will have to
either acknowledge magic or loss their congragations, (and that means
money) At first , as was already stated, they may go "the salam route"
but eventuall magic will at least become tolerated.
As for persecution, I think you are off base by limiting it to only the
Christian religions. Islam is just as bad if not worse. The biggist
predjudiced, pesecuting religion of them all are the Hindus. Come to
think of it the Jews are'nt always nice, and the Buddhist's........
Every mass organization has the potential to wield its power in an "evil"
way. Religions are no exception.

Nigel

What a group!!! Religion and Politics!!!!
Message no. 40
From: Chris Lubrecht <lubrecht@***.EDU>
Subject: Re: Racism-Sexism do they exist?
Date: Wed, 25 May 1994 09:11:57 -0400
ooops sorry, mis-quote.
I have mistakenly quoted Neal Porter, when it shoul have been Ivy K
mea culpa

Nigel
Message no. 41
From: Ivy Ryan <ivyryan@***.ORG>
Subject: Re: Racism-Sexism do they exist?
Date: Wed, 25 May 1994 11:26:27 -0700
On Wed, 25 May 1994, Neal A Porter wrote:

> > You are christian. Obviously. The christians were *doing* the
Quite a bit deleted.


> >just natural magic returning. And I'll bet the christians will try to
> >start another pogrom.
> > Ivy K
> >
>
> Before you get to worried about a pogrom in SR, remember what happened
> to Tehran. Thats how the Sixth world punishes those who refuse to except
> that it exists.
>
> A'Deus.
>
Good point A'Deus, in fact, so good that it has been happening for over a
real year in *my* game world. Everything from Draconic strikes a'la
Tehran to a "terrorist" meta-human group called "Twilight" that is
made
up of magically active beings.

Someone else made the point that it could get dangerous to worship in a
church the denied the use/existance of magic. That too has been
happening. In fact, it has posed a neat moral problem to some runners.
They were hired to guard a church every sunday. The mage had to stand
guard each sunday and listen to the preacher tell the congregation how
"mages are the sworn chattel of the devil" and the like. And then the
preacher would come out after the services were over and pay the mage for
guarding the church. (The mage was the leader of the group.) The
runners are still doing it too. They figure freedom of speech, and
getting paid, is better than *proving* to the church-goers that mages
really *are* evil by blowing up the church.

It works.
Ivy K
Message no. 42
From: Robert Watkins <bob@**.NTU.EDU.AU>
Subject: Re: Racism-Sexism do they exist?
Date: Thu, 26 May 1994 12:56:56 +0930
>
> On Wed, 25 May 1994, Neal A Porter wrote:
>
> > > You are christian. Obviously. The christians were *doing* the
> > >persecuting, not being persecuted. Catholics, Protestants, methodists,
> > >lutherans, puritans, all of them were burning witches. The last witch
> > >burning I know of happened in 1968 and the last attacks on witches and
> > >mages was this morning on christian television.
> > > That resivor of hatred isn't going to "dry-up" in 60 years
>

Old Jungle Saying: Never burn someone at the stake who can toss a
fireball.

> Actually I disagree. While religious persecution is evedent in all world
> religions, (or at least the major ones), the leaders of these religions
> have at least conditioned their followers. The leaders will have to
> either acknowledge magic or loss their congragations, (and that means
> money) At first , as was already stated, they may go "the salam route"
> but eventuall magic will at least become tolerated.

Matter of fact, in SR, all of the major Christian sects have accepted
magic in at least a minimal sense (ie, it's okay to use it on Church
business).

> As for persecution, I think you are off base by limiting it to only the
> Christian religions. Islam is just as bad if not worse. The biggist
> predjudiced, pesecuting religion of them all are the Hindus. Come to
> think of it the Jews are'nt always nice, and the Buddhist's........

Oh come off it... the vast bulk of Islam is the most tolerant religion in
the world. The Sunni Muslims aren't the ones doing all the jihads, etc,
that's the (minority) Shi'ite sect. And, again in SR, the Sunnis are quite
tolerant, and the Shi'ites ban it. Asian religions have always accepted
magic as a force in the world, and don't care about magic, per se, but
what it is used for. Same with Buddhists, and I don't know what the Jew's
think.

> Every mass organization has the potential to wield its power in an "evil"
> way. Religions are no exception.

Far from being an exception, religions are historically the biggest
example.

--
Robert Watkins bob@**.ntu.edu.au
Real Programmers never work 9 to 5. If any real programmers are around at 9 am,
it's because they were up all night.

Further Reading

If you enjoyed reading about Racism-Sexism do they exist?, you may also be interested in:

Disclaimer

These messages were posted a long time ago on a mailing list far, far away. The copyright to their contents probably lies with the original authors of the individual messages, but since they were published in an electronic forum that anyone could subscribe to, and the logs were available to subscribers and most likely non-subscribers as well, it's felt that re-publishing them here is a kind of public service.

Thwap!