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Message no. 1
From: Mike Hartmann <hartmann@***********.M.EUNET.DE>
Subject: Raising attributes and skills
Date: Sun, 2 Mar 1997 17:25:27 +0000
Hi people,

just one simple (or not so simple ?) question:

how do you handle the cost of raising skills and attributes, if they
are cyber-/bio-/physad-enhanced? Do the cost depend on the "natural"
attribute/skill or on the modified?

For example: John Doe has a natural Quickness of 5, which is
enhanced by a muscle augmentation rating 4, for a total of 9. Now he
has some spare karma and wants to raise it. Will the cost be
a) 6 (for raising the natural Quickness from 5 to 6)
b) 10 (for raising the total Quickness from 9 to 10) _OR_
c) 15 (because the total Quickness is beyond the racial maximum) ????

For skills this question is similar, if you use reflex recorders or
the physad-power "enhanced skill".

Before you answer take the following "arguments" into account:
- cyberware-modified attributes are not always used, so applying the
cost of the total attribute would be unjust.
- bioware-modified attributes are counted as natural attributes (to
be found somewhere in shadowtech)
- it is harder to raise a high attribute, especially if it is
"technically" enhanced.
- what about quickened/locked "enhance atteibute"-spells? Are they
destroyed when raising the attribute, because the spell is "tuned"
to the old attribute (Target number is twice the attribute). Are the
cost for raising the attribute based on the enhanced one?

(Those arguments showed up, when we were discussing the thing
in our group)

Well, think about it...:-)

Bye Mike-awaiting-a-long-thread-about this-thing
Message no. 2
From: MC23 <mc23@****.NET>
Subject: Re: Raising attributes and skills
Date: Sun, 2 Mar 1997 12:18:05 -0500
Mike Hartmann wrote,
>how do you handle the cost of raising skills and attributes, if they
>are cyber-/bio-/physad-enhanced? Do the cost depend on the "natural"
>attribute/skill or on the modified?

The increase is based on natural cost in my game. I also have house
rules making multiple increases in attributes more expensive. Artificial
stats (cyberlimbs and reflex recorders) are never effected by any
increase. Those are independent. A visit (or several) may be required to
make sure the wares are adjusting with the meat. That could cost some
money along with the normal karma cost.

>For skills this question is similar, if you use reflex recorders or
>the physad-power "enhanced skill".

Reflex recorder is preprogrammed and as such cannot be raised by
normal means. Enhanced ability is a physAd power and is always additional
to the skill itself. If the cost of the power is changed by the new skill
level then I wouldn't allow Enhanced ability to work until the new cost
is "paid" for.

>Before you answer take the following "arguments" into account:
> - cyberware-modified attributes are not always used, so applying the
>cost of the total attribute would be unjust.

Yep, or possibly independent of regular attributes

> - bioware-modified attributes are counted as natural attributes (to
>be found somewhere in shadowtech)

So increase it based off of adjusted level or regular level plus
nuyen costs to cover physical therapy for increasing a bioware attribute.

> - it is harder to raise a high attribute, especially if it is
>"technically" enhanced.

Yep again.

> - what about quickened/locked "enhance atteibute"-spells? Are they
>destroyed when raising the attribute, because the spell is "tuned"
>to the old attribute (Target number is twice the attribute). Are the
>cost for raising the attribute based on the enhanced one?

I would probably let this one slide as ok. If it bothers you, retest
(unless of course you have the original test rolls) to see if the spell
is still "synched" to the spell lock's target aura.


<><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><>

Ancient cultures believed that names held great power, personal names
more so and they were guarded very closely. To protect themselves, they
answered to another name, because if another discovered their real name,
it could be used against them.
History repeats itself.
Welcome to the Digital Age.
I am MC23
Message no. 3
From: Droopy <droopy@*******.NB.NET>
Subject: Re: Raising attributes and skills
Date: Mon, 3 Mar 1997 01:46:57 +0000
> From: Mike Hartmann <hartmann@***********.M.EUNET.DE>
> Subject: Raising attributes and skills

> For example: John Doe has a natural Quickness of 5, which is
> enhanced by a muscle augmentation rating 4, for a total of 9. Now he
> has some spare karma and wants to raise it. Will the cost be
> a) 6 (for raising the natural Quickness from 5 to 6)
> b) 10 (for raising the total Quickness from 9 to 10) _OR_
> c) 15 (because the total Quickness is beyond the racial maximum) ????

I'd say b since in SR1 (there is no reference in SR2) it says that
the cost is equal to the "current value of the attribute" which is 9.
I would not go with c because you are not increasing the natural
attribute beyond it's limit.

I could've sworn that there was a direct reference to doing it this
way, but can't find it right now. I do know that we have always done
it that way. (of course, we had the rule of 1's screwed up for a
long time as well.)


--Droopy
droopy@**.net
Message no. 4
From: Gurth <gurth@******.NL>
Subject: Re: Raising attributes and skills
Date: Mon, 3 Mar 1997 11:36:48 +0100
Mike Hartmann said on 17:25/ 2 Mar 97...

> how do you handle the cost of raising skills and attributes, if they
> are cyber-/bio-/physad-enhanced? Do the cost depend on the "natural"
> attribute/skill or on the modified?

I use the base rating to calculate the Karma cost, and then apply the
modifiers to the new rating. For example, if you have Strength 4(5), it
costs 5 Karma Points to bring it up to 5(6).

--
Gurth@******.nl - http://www.xs4all.nl/~gurth/index.html
They all are.
-> NERPS Project Leader & Unofficial Shadowrun Guru <-
-> The Plastic Warriors Page: http://www.xs4all.nl/~gurth/plastic.html <-

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Message no. 5
From: Droopy <droopy@*******.NB.NET>
Subject: Re: Raising attributes and skills
Date: Tue, 4 Mar 1997 01:13:41 +0000
> From: Droopy <droopy@*******.nb.net>
> Subject: Re: Raising attributes and skills

> I'd say b since in SR1 (there is no reference in SR2) it says that
> the cost is equal to the "current value of the attribute" which is 9.
> I would not go with c because you are not increasing the natural
> attribute beyond it's limit.
>
> I could've sworn that there was a direct reference to doing it this
> way, but can't find it right now. I do know that we have always done
> it that way. (of course, we had the rule of 1's screwed up for a
> long time as well.)

Aha! Found it. Grimoire, 14th ed (that's 1st ed for you rubes) pg 16
and SR2 main book pg 125 under Improved Physical attributes....(SR2
wording) "If the adept later wants to increase a Physical Attribute
using Karma in the normal manner (pg 190), the cost is based on the
total attribute rating, that is, including the magical improvements."

Haven't found a reference for cyberware yet, but it'd logicly follow
the same rule.


--Droopy
Reading those books again for the first time.....
droopy@**.net
Message no. 6
From: Tim P Cooper <z-i-m@****.COM>
Subject: Re: Raising attributes and skills
Date: Tue, 4 Mar 1997 14:17:34 EST
On Tue, 4 Mar 1997 01:13:41 +0000 Droopy writes:
>Aha! Found it. Grimoire, 14th ed (that's 1st ed for you rubes) pg 16
>and SR2 main book pg 125 under Improved Physical attributes....(SR2
>wording) "If the adept later wants to increase a Physical Attribute
>using Karma in the normal manner (pg 190), the cost is based on the
>total attribute rating, that is, including the magical improvements."
>
>Haven't found a reference for cyberware yet, but it'd logicly follow
>the same rule.

Nope, I think it explicitly says that the Physad. bonuses are counted as
the natural attribute rating (it would have to be an exception, otherwise
why mention it at all?). See SR2 pg 42 - under Attribute Ratings, 2nd
paragraph. That whole paragraph indicates to me that you just pay Karma
on the Natural att. (especially that second sentence). Although I'd
agree that it isn't very direct in saying that, but that's what I get
from it.

~Tim
Message no. 7
From: Droopy <droopy@*******.NB.NET>
Subject: Re: Raising attributes and skills
Date: Tue, 4 Mar 1997 15:42:18 +0000
> From: Tim P Cooper <z-i-m@****.COM>
> Subject: Re: Raising attributes and skills

> >Haven't found a reference for cyberware yet, but it'd logicly follow
> >the same rule.
>
> Nope, I think it explicitly says that the Physad. bonuses are counted as
> the natural attribute rating (it would have to be an exception, otherwise
> why mention it at all?). See SR2 pg 42 - under Attribute Ratings, 2nd
> paragraph. That whole paragraph indicates to me that you just pay Karma
> on the Natural att. (especially that second sentence). Although I'd
> agree that it isn't very direct in saying that, but that's what I get
> from it.

2nd sentence? Anyway, the part about a physad's mod being considered
the natural attribute was right after a sentence that explained that
rules will specify natural or modified.

Also, Bioware enhancements are considered to be the natural attribute
as well. I can't see getting a bonus to improve cyberware enhanced
attributes over bioware and magic.


--Droopy
droopy@**.net
Message no. 8
From: Czar Eggbert <czregbrt@*********.EDU>
Subject: Re: Raising attributes and skills
Date: Tue, 4 Mar 1997 19:52:22 -0600
On Tue, 4 Mar 1997, Tim P Cooper wrote:

> On Tue, 4 Mar 1997 01:13:41 +0000 Droopy writes:
> >Aha! Found it. Grimoire, 14th ed (that's 1st ed for you rubes) pg 16
> >and SR2 main book pg 125 under Improved Physical attributes....(SR2
> >wording) "If the adept later wants to increase a Physical Attribute
> >using Karma in the normal manner (pg 190), the cost is based on the
> >total attribute rating, that is, including the magical improvements."
> >
> >Haven't found a reference for cyberware yet, but it'd logicly follow
> >the same rule.
>
> Nope, I think it explicitly says that the Physad. bonuses are counted as
> the natural attribute rating (it would have to be an exception, otherwise
> why mention it at all?). See SR2 pg 42 - under Attribute Ratings, 2nd
> paragraph. That whole paragraph indicates to me that you just pay Karma
> on the Natural att. (especially that second sentence). Although I'd
> agree that it isn't very direct in saying that, but that's what I get
> from it.
>
> ~Tim
>

This brings me to a very interesting question.....

What happens when you have a physad with a na..um..starting
body/strength/quickness of, say, 3 and then increases it via his magic to
a 9....Can he raise that attribute with Karma sence his beginning
attribute is less than max???

BTW I know that to increse it he spends more than 6 magic points....lets
just assume he is an initate...

Czar Eggbert
Message no. 9
From: Tim Cooper <tpcooper@***.CSUPOMONA.EDU>
Subject: Re: Raising attributes and skills
Date: Tue, 4 Mar 1997 18:26:23 -0800
On Tue, 4 Mar 1997, Czar Eggbert wrote:

> On Tue, 4 Mar 1997, Tim P Cooper wrote:
>
> This brings me to a very interesting question.....
>
> What happens when you have a physad with a na..um..starting
> body/strength/quickness of, say, 3 and then increases it via his magic to
> a 9....Can he raise that attribute with Karma sence his beginning
> attribute is less than max???
>
> BTW I know that to increse it he spends more than 6 magic points....lets
> just assume he is an initate...

Yes, a very HIGH initiate..:)

>
> Czar Eggbert
>

Now if you'll notice in the section that I was refering to (I
convieniently deleted it - just go read pg 42 of SR2 under Attribute
RAtings..) you'll see that physad bonuses are considered NATURAL, thus if
he raises his att to 9 then it's a 9 for the purposes of Karamic increase.

~Tim

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