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Message no. 1
From: Richard Bukowski <bukowski@**.BERKELEY.EDU>
Subject: Ramblings on magic and FAB
Date: Sat, 13 May 1995 16:40:32 -0700
So, what do you other GMs actually _do_ about this business of
exclusivity bonuses and fetish bonuses taken by characters?
Personally, I find a +2 force bonus without any corresponding drain
modifier pretty f*ing powerful. I have a wolf shaman in my group who
took sleep with expendable fetish required (thank the gods she didn't
take exclusive); she nails people with a force 6 mental attack spell
and resists 2D drain. With the modifiers for totem (+2 combat
spells), plus her combat spell focus (power 2) and magic pool
(specialized, of course, in combat spells, for an 8), she has
12 pool dice to add to her 6 attack dice and 6 drain resistance dice.
Needless to say she flattens people by the truckload and never takes
drain (6 dice vs. a TN of 2 _expects_ to produce 5 successes; add just
3 pool dice and she's taking an L drain only if she _really_ gets
unlucky, while throwing that force 6 stun blast, with, of course, 9
pool dice left over for attack boosting or shielding). I believe she
didn't take exclusivity simply because it wouldn't help statistically;
she's already down to 2 on her drain TN!!! And fetishes are not hard
to come by... easy to make, easy to buy, and cheap to boot. She even
had a special case made to store some in case of a fireball or some
such; reinforced steel/leather lined case holding 10 spare fetishes
for emergencies. Yarg.

Oh, did I mention all my players (and me :)are CS nerds, and the
aforementioned wolf shaman is played by my SO, who was an applied math
undergrad? The first thing she did when learning Shadowrun is to make
a huge pile of charts giving the expected number of successes, plus
the % chance of getting at least (n) successes when rolling (x) dice
against TN (y). None of my players will sustain a spell anymore
because these charts show the gruesome statistical effect of a +2 to
_any_ TN.

I'm of the opinion that they goofed royally when designing the rules
for exclusive and fetish spells. I think they're much too much bang
for a negligible disadvantage... I liked the rule that they only add
dice, not actual force, to the power of the spell, but my players
would lynch me if I tried to change the rules on that now, in the
middle of the game. Does _anyone_ out there worry about exclusivity?
I don't think in all my years of playing that I actually tried to cast
a spell while sustaining another spell more than once or twice.
That's because I know for a fact I'll take drain if I do, with the +2
TN modifier for sustaining. So, if I'm not going to bother anyhow,
why not take "exclusive" and boost the hell out of the effectiveness
of my spells, not to mention spending 2 less of my precious Resource
force points at character generation? Sheesh. And the only time the
fetish thing is a disadvantage is if you get captured. And how often
does that happen? Hmmmmmm... <evil GM grin>

Enough on those modifiers. Now I'd like to attack Shadowrun on a
different ground. :) I just bought Corporate Security Handbook (CSH)
yesterday, and boy am I disappointed. Silly me, I thought there would
be something in it I could actually use. But no; the only thing in
the whole book that I didn't have in my corporate security setups
ALREADY by common sense (come on, guys. A new bunch of drones? That
stick to walls and shoot at things? New squirt guns? Oh, gee,
_that's_ original) is FAB. The whole stupid book is a huge sales
brochure for FAB. FAB walls, FAB nets, catch those Evil Astral Mages
today, it slices, it dices, just look at that tomato...

Okay, so the only new idea in it is FAB. That would actually be fine
with me, IF THEY HAD GIVEN RULES FOR IT THAT I COULD @!#@$!$@ USE!!!!
But no. I had thought of FAB YEARS AGO. It's a pretty g*d d**n
_obvious_ idea; if astral entities can't pass through living matter,
build a wall out of living matter. What's alive and easy to
feed/maintain/doesn't need exercise or light, or need to move at all?
That's right, folks, bacteria. Pretty straightforward. But, there's
all those nasty problems that come up. Can an astral entity interact with
such a wall? Can you slip through cracks? Can you now make astrally
potent bullets by filling them with bacteria? Can two walls of
bacteria crush a purely astral entity between them? Can a pile of
bacteria dropped on an astral entity already standing on a pile of
bacteria be physically supported by that astral entity?

Okay, so FASA comes out with a book that pushes FAB. Great, sez I.
They'll address all these problems that immediately occurred to me
when _I_ first thought of it 6 f**ing years ago. So what do I get for
my $18? THEY MENTION ALL THE PROBLEMS, AND DON'T ANSWER ONE FRAGGING
ONE OF THEM. You get all of these problems mentioned in the sidebars.
Answers? None. What does it say in the GM rules section? "FAB can
be wierd in the game; make sure you and your players understand its
use before you use it." NO I DON'T UNDERSTAND IT'S USE FASA; YOU
WERE SUPPOSED TO EXPLAIN IT, THAT'S WHY I SPENT $18 ON YOUR FRAGGING
BOOK!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

As you can tell, I'm a bit upset about the whole thing. ("I am not
bitter!" :):) Sorry to take up your time, but I wanted to vent.

Rick
Message no. 2
From: Gurth <gurth@******.NL>
Subject: Re: Ramblings on magic and FAB
Date: Sun, 14 May 1995 12:03:11 +0200
>So, what do you other GMs actually _do_ about this business of
>exclusivity bonuses and fetish bonuses taken by characters?

Nothing, really. Let them cast their spells with the fetishes.

[snip]
>Needless to say she flattens people by the truckload and never takes
>drain (6 dice vs. a TN of 2 _expects_ to produce 5 successes; add just
>3 pool dice and she's taking an L drain only if she _really_ gets
>unlucky, while throwing that force 6 stun blast, with, of course, 9
>pool dice left over for attack boosting or shielding). I believe she
>didn't take exclusivity simply because it wouldn't help statistically;
>she's already down to 2 on her drain TN!!! And fetishes are not hard
>to come by... easy to make, easy to buy, and cheap to boot. She even
>had a special case made to store some in case of a fireball or some
>such; reinforced steel/leather lined case holding 10 spare fetishes
>for emergencies. Yarg.

So steal the case if that's your problem. Have some ganger on a bike drive
by, hit her in the back of the neck with a club so she goes unconcious (too
bad they chucked away that SR1 rule about hitting someone from behind :),
and when she wakes up, all her valuables are gone, and so is the case.
I had the same sort of situation (though not as severe as your player makes
it, I think), and what happened was that some corp security tried to arrest
the shaman, and when she was facing the wall they started removing the
fetishes from her pockets. I just rolled dice to determine which and how
many they took every time, until she tried to escape (which succeeded by
means of an Invisibility spell). But it did relieve her of a number of fetishes.

>The first thing she did when learning Shadowrun is to make
>a huge pile of charts giving the expected number of successes, plus
>the % chance of getting at least (n) successes when rolling (x) dice
>against TN (y).

That sounds like a roll-player to me... did she play **&* before SR? :)
Seriously, I've got a chart with the average number of successes too, but I
hardly ever use it except to see "Oh, now I should around get X sucesses"
after I've decided how many dice to roll :) Maybe you should tell her the
game's name is rol_e_playing...

>I'm of the opinion that they goofed royally when designing the rules
>for exclusive and fetish spells. I think they're much too much bang
>for a negligible disadvantage...

Here I would like to say again that I don't believe in "every advantage
should have a disadvantage" or the other way around.

>I liked the rule that they only add
>dice, not actual force, to the power of the spell, but my players
>would lynch me if I tried to change the rules on that now, in the
>middle of the game.

Then do it without telling them. If they cast a Force 4 spell plus exp.
fetish, let the NPC target roll against a 4 instead of a 6, behind your nice
little GM screen :) Just be mysterious about TNs and only look at their dice
rolls and count the successes for yourself without telling them how many
they've scored. This usually works for me...


Gurth@******.nl - Gurth@***.nl - http://www.xs4all.nl/~gurth/index.html
Zonco presents... Aural Floss! Order now while stocks last!
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B? e+ u+@ h! f--(?) !r(--)(*) n---->!n y? Unofficial Shadowrun Guru :)
Message no. 3
From: Jani Fikouras <feanor@**********.UNI-BREMEN.DE>
Subject: Re: Ramblings on magic and FAB
Date: Sun, 14 May 1995 17:03:17 +0200
> So, what do you other GMs actually _do_ about this business of
> exclusivity bonuses and fetish bonuses taken by characters?
> Personally, I find a +2 force bonus without any corresponding drain
> modifier pretty f*ing powerful. I have a wolf shaman in my group who
> took sleep with expendable fetish required (thank the gods she didn't
> take exclusive); she nails people with a force 6 mental attack spell
> and resists 2D drain.

The Drain code for sleep is F/2-1 so the aforementioned player
would still have a TN of 2 even if she didnt use the fetish. I dont
see why she didnt go for a force 8 spell (6+2).

> With the modifiers for totem (+2 combat
> spells), plus her combat spell focus (power 2) and magic pool
> (specialized, of course, in combat spells, for an 8), she has
> 12 pool dice to add to her 6 attack dice and 6 drain resistance dice.
> Needless to say she flattens people by the truckload and never takes
> drain (6 dice vs. a TN of 2 _expects_ to produce 5 successes; add just
> 3 pool dice and she's taking an L drain only if she _really_ gets
> unlucky, while throwing that force 6 stun blast, with, of course, 9
> pool dice left over for attack boosting or shielding).

Well this sounds very much like Bob's gripe so I am gona give
you a recap of Damion's briliant answer :) It seems that your
player has specialised herself in chucking combat spells
(not a very interesting ocupation if I may say so), so its only
natural that she excells in that domain, after all she *is*
a specialist, so it should be expected that she can toss a combat
spell better than the average magician no ? - so far so good.

The problem is that players see the advantages the magic
system can provide and go for them, and the GMs just sit there
and let them have them, but dont enforce the disadvantages.
Take your player for example, a specialisation is combat spells
means a general socery rating of 4, this means she gets her
ass kicked in astral combat (only 4 dice), has only 5 combat pool
dice when casting other spells (there is a nice list of
disadvantages in the nagm I recomend reading it) and has a generally
*bad* time when doing anything other than tossing spells.

And besides, the 2 extra dice are not such a big deal after all.

> I believe she
> didn't take exclusivity simply because it wouldn't help statistically;
> she's already down to 2 on her drain TN!!! And fetishes are not hard
> to come by... easy to make, easy to buy, and cheap to boot. She even
> had a special case made to store some in case of a fireball or some
> such; reinforced steel/leather lined case holding 10 spare fetishes
> for emergencies. Yarg.

Good idea, I like imaginative players.

> Oh, did I mention all my players (and me :)are CS nerds, and the
> aforementioned wolf shaman is played by my SO, who was an applied math
> undergrad? The first thing she did when learning Shadowrun is to make
> a huge pile of charts giving the expected number of successes, plus
> the % chance of getting at least (n) successes when rolling (x) dice
> against TN (y). None of my players will sustain a spell anymore
> because these charts show the gruesome statistical effect of a +2 to
> _any_ TN.

*shrug* you are right, but there are times when you have no choice
but to do it, and believe me that is when it hurts the most if you
cant do it.

> I'm of the opinion that they goofed royally when designing the rules
> for exclusive and fetish spells. I think they're much too much bang
> for a negligible disadvantage... I liked the rule that they only add
> dice, not actual force, to the power of the spell, but my players
> would lynch me if I tried to change the rules on that now, in the
> middle of the game. Does _anyone_ out there worry about exclusivity?

I dont, exclusivity is a very stupid thing to take for ones spells
(unless one does it for roleplaying purposes) it severely limits your
options and generally makes for baaaad gaming. Its the kind of thing
that forces the players to keep fighting because they feel they have no
choice.

> I don't think in all my years of playing that I actually tried to cast
> a spell while sustaining another spell more than once or twice.

We seem to have *radically different styles of play. I used to
sustain about 3 spells on average at least once in every session.

> That's because I know for a fact I'll take drain if I do, with the +2
> TN modifier for sustaining. So, if I'm not going to bother anyhow,
> why not take "exclusive" and boost the hell out of the effectiveness
> of my spells, not to mention spending 2 less of my precious Resource
> force points at character generation? Sheesh. And the only time the
> fetish thing is a disadvantage is if you get captured. And how often
> does that happen? Hmmmmmm... <evil GM grin>

This is all very nice, but what happens when the star storms into the
apartment and you got only 3 seconds to come up with a solution or
you all get busted!!!

> use before you use it." NO I DON'T UNDERSTAND IT'S USE FASA; YOU
> WERE SUPPOSED TO EXPLAIN IT, THAT'S WHY I SPENT $18 ON YOUR FRAGGING
> BOOK!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Why didnt you have a look in it before buying it ?

--
"Believe in Angels." -- The Crow

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Message no. 4
From: ATREIDE - Aymeric RICHARD <arichard@****.IRESTE.FR>
Subject: Re: Ramblings on magic and FAB
Date: Mon, 15 May 1995 16:43:47 +0100
On Saturday, Rick wrote :
>
> Personally, I find a +2 force bonus without any corresponding drain
> modifier pretty f*ing powerful. I have a wolf shaman in my group who
> took sleep with expendable fetish required (thank the gods she didn't
> take exclusive); she nails people with a force 6 mental attack spell
> and resists 2D drain.
> [etc... deleted] Yarg.

As FASA says : Welcome to the 6th Wolrd ;-)

> Rick
>


--

ATREIDE

GCS d(++) H--() s !g p*+ au a- !v C+(++) UL+ P?>+ L+>++ N+ E- W M-- Y(+) t+
R+(++) G' !tv b++ D+ u**-
|-----------------------------------------------------------------------------|
| "Enjoy your life, it's so short when you have a Dragon in front of you..." |
| |
| Aymeric RICHARD - Atreide on IRC E-Mail : arichard@****.ireste.fr |
|-----------------------------------------------------------------------------|
Message no. 5
From: ATREIDE - Aymeric RICHARD <arichard@****.IRESTE.FR>
Subject: Re: Ramblings on magic and FAB
Date: Mon, 15 May 1995 17:07:47 +0100
On saturday Rick talked about "FAB". What does it EXACTLY stand for ?
I can understand the suject but no more.

> What's alive and easy to feed/maintain/doesn't need exercise or light,
> or need to move at all? That's right, folks, bacteria.
I did not bought CSH (I planned but I may not to buy it now).
However, The idea of using bacteria seems strange to me : there are
lots of bacterias in air and water and magicians can travel both.
Moreover it may be very difficult to have such a concentration that is
fixed to something (but that's 2050+ not prehistorical 1995+ will you
answer...)

> Can an astral entity interact with such a wall?
What do you mean by "interact" ?

> Can you slip through cracks?
Have you seen any mage go in a hole in a tree ? No and holes are bigger
than cracks ! Because a magician cannot change his/her astral form like ghosts
are supposed to do (can they in SR wolrd? they are spirits = astral bodies).
This is a delicate problem in fact.

> Can you now make astrally potent bullets by filling them with bacteria?
When a closed car strikes a mana barrier its passengers are not stopped.
If bacterias are IN the bullet they will not be considered astrally meaning
(but may be considered for infection of physical wounds).
If bacterias are ON the bullet the heat will destroy them, so there is
no consideration to be done at all in this case.

> Can two walls of bacteria crush a purely astral entity between them?
Can an astral entity be crushed between a tree and Earth (2 living things,
more living than bacterias I would say) ?
My answer is YES for the tree. For the walls of bacteria it depends on
whether you say it can block the progression of an astral entity or not.

I wounder if you can aim a spell at bacteria (mana thing). If so a Fireball
will destroy the living thing then remove the danger and the wall will not
be harmfull. I would say it is a counterpart to walls covered by bacteria.
Needless to say it can be easely spotted by the guarding spirit *Evil GM Grin*

> Can a pile of bacteria dropped on an astral entity already standing
> on a pile of bacteria be physically supported by that astral entity?
NO ! There is no way to "carry" bacteria. See what I wrote about
air and sea.

> As you can tell, I'm a bit upset about the whole thing.
Do you ? :-)

--

ATREIDE

GCS d(++) H--() s !g p*+ au a- !v C+(++) UL+ P?>+ L+>++ N+ E- W M-- Y(+) t+
R+(++) G' !tv b++ D+ u**-
|-----------------------------------------------------------------------------|
| "Enjoy your life, it's so short when you have a Dragon in front of you..." |
| |
| Aymeric RICHARD - Atreide on IRC E-Mail : arichard@****.ireste.fr |
|-----------------------------------------------------------------------------|
Message no. 6
From: Mark Steedman <RSMS@******.EEE.RGU.AC.UK>
Subject: Re: Ramblings on magic and FAB
Date: Mon, 15 May 1995 19:29:53 GMT
Jani Fikouras writes

> > So, what do you other GMs actually _do_ about this business of
> > exclusivity bonuses and fetish bonuses taken by characters?
> > Personally, I find a +2 force bonus without any corresponding drain
> > modifier pretty f*ing powerful.
>
> The Drain code for sleep is F/2-1 so the aforementioned player
> would still have a TN of 2 even if she didnt use the fetish. I dont
> see why she didnt go for a force 8 spell (6+2).
>
Sleep, take it straight!!! 6M area for 2S drain, no fetishes, to run
out at inconvenient moments, get stolen, burned e.t.c. any you can
cast it while inivisible (improved invis also sustained).

> > 12 pool dice to add to her 6 attack dice and 6 drain resistance dice.
> > Needless to say she flattens people by the truckload and never takes
> > drain
Drain, thats something other people suffer from!, well most of the
time.
>
> The problem is that players see the advantages the magic
> system can provide and go for them, and the GMs just sit there
> and let them have them, but dont enforce the disadvantages.
> Take your player for example, a specialisation is combat spells
> means a general socery rating of 4, this means she gets her
> ass kicked in astral combat (only 4 dice), has only 5 combat pool
> dice when casting other spells (there is a nice list of
> disadvantages in the nagm I recomend reading it) and has a generally
> *bad* time when doing anything other than tossing spells.
>
> And besides, the 2 extra dice are not such a big deal after all.
>
This specialisation in combat magic is going to hurt if the
opposition ever get shielding! which only really hurts combat spells
(there are others but not common)

> > Oh, did I mention all my players (and me :)are CS nerds, and the
> > aforementioned wolf shaman is played by my SO, who was an applied math
> > undergrad? The first thing she did when learning Shadowrun is to make
> > a huge pile of charts giving the expected number of successes, plus
> > the % chance of getting at least (n) successes when rolling (x) dice
> > against TN (y). None of my players will sustain a spell anymore
> > because these charts show the gruesome statistical effect of a +2 to
> > _any_ TN.
>
> *shrug* you are right, but there are times when you have no choice
> but to do it, and believe me that is when it hurts the most if you
> cant do it.
>
They needed to write out the pile of charts. A bit of mental maths is
good enough to point out that any target number penalty is a real
pain, thats why reach is so hard in Hand-hand.

> > Does _anyone_ out there worry about exclusivity?
>
> I dont, exclusivity is a very stupid thing to take for ones spells
> (unless one does it for roleplaying purposes) it severely limits your
> options and generally makes for baaaad gaming. Its the kind of thing
> that forces the players to keep fighting because they feel they have no
> choice.
>
Exclusivity is one of those things i reserve for the fireball type
spells that have really silly drains (ie if you are going to cast it
use every trick in the book to ensure taking that ((F/2)+3)D drain
was worth the pain) and things like mind probe that need force but
are not used in combat where you might need to sustain something else
at the same time.

> > I don't think in all my years of playing that I actually tried to cast
> > a spell while sustaining another spell more than once or twice.
>
> We seem to have *radically different styles of play. I used to
> sustain about 3 spells on average at least once in every session.
>
The bottom line of this one is
Do the +2's to target numbers (and any plusses from wounds e.t.c.)
apply to damage resistance (which drain is generally counted as) tests
in SR2. I and every GM i have ever met say they don't, though the
book makes no distinctions and could be read to imply they do. Only
multicasting explicitly says it affects drain target numbers.
If you rule they do get these penalties expect to see two types of
character
1) uninjured with Karma pool remaining
2) fragged or dead (because the karma pool ran out and suddenly the
effects of taking damage became exponential)

And yes i regularly sustain a spell (typicall impoved invis or
levitate) and then cast others. Oh for centering vs penalties (do i
need some karma) so i can get away with more than 1 at a time.

> > use before you use it." NO I DON'T UNDERSTAND IT'S USE FASA; YOU
> > WERE SUPPOSED TO EXPLAIN IT, THAT'S WHY I SPENT $18 ON YOUR FRAGGING
> > BOOK!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
>
One of a long long list of similar complaints, but it would take
all the fun out of the rules arguements (and break your back carrying
the books) if FASA answered everything. FAB though is a particularly
bad case.

> Why didnt you have a look in it before buying it ?
>
> --
> "Believe in Angels." -- The Crow
>
Mark
Message no. 7
From: P Ward <P.Ward@**.CF.AC.UK>
Subject: Re: Ramblings on magic and FAB
Date: Tue, 16 May 1995 10:49:13 BST
OK chummers here goes :-
FAB FAt Astral Bacteria (or something like that).

You can make bullets filled with bacvteria (assuming the bacteria will
survive discharge), but they will not put holes in enemy mages. At worst
they will hit him and spin him round, the astral doesn;t work like the
physical, you don;t get penetrating trauma (or blunt for that matter),
your aura is weakened/dispruted, but the wound appearing on your body is
similar tot hat which would have been inflicated by the same blow on the
physical plane.

Nice sidestep of a difficult question by the folks at FASA there, hey guys?
Neat simple and above all; workable.


And that also means that the FAB pipe won't do extra damage.

Query: can you attack a manifesting mage in the same way that you attack
manifesting spirits? If so, then the pipe will just work in the same way
as a normal melee attack on a mage would, although the presence of FAB
would guarentee some form of knockback. (which I believe doesn;t usually
occur on the astral)..


The critical mass stuff seems like a good way of exaplaining why you
can go astral, and why living things stop you, it might not have any basis
in real science, but the neither does the astral plane (As yet).


Phil (Runs-With-The-Pack)

PS. My real complaint is still; what the hell is the TNo for dodging
a squirt gun or Narcoject dart?
Message no. 8
From: ATREIDE - Aymeric RICHARD <arichard@****.IRESTE.FR>
Subject: Re: Ramblings on magic and FAB
Date: Tue, 16 May 1995 17:53:23 +0100
> Query: can you attack a manifesting mage in the same way that you attack
> manifesting spirits? If so, then the pipe will just work in the same way
> as a normal melee attack on a mage would, although the presence of FAB
> would guarentee some form of knockback. (which I believe doesn;t usually
> occur on the astral)..
My answer is based on 2 questions ;-)
1) Can a spirit in manifestation form act on phisical world ?
YES
2) Can a mage in manifestation form act on phisical world ?
NO

Answer :
These are 2 types of manifestation... Deduce consequences

There is no knockback specified in rules because (I think) FASA considered
UP and DOWN does not really matters in Astral (mages can fly) so they cannot
fall (which is the main good point in knocking back). Moreover even though
magicians are pushed by a blow movement in Astral is so fast that it does
not have any consequence in tactics.

--
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Message no. 9
From: Sebastian Vilstrup <vilstrup@*****.IHI.KU.DK>
Subject: Re: Ramblings on magic and FAB
Date: Tue, 16 May 1995 20:29:12 +0200
On Sat, 13 May 1995, Richard Bukowski wrote:

> So, what do you other GMs actually _do_ about this business of
> exclusivity bonuses and fetish bonuses taken by characters?
> Personally, I find a +2 force bonus without any corresponding drain
> modifier pretty f*ing powerful. I have a wolf shaman in my group who
> took sleep with expendable fetish required (thank the gods she didn't
> take exclusive); she nails people with a force 6 mental attack spell
> and resists 2D drain. With the modifiers for totem (+2 combat
> spells), plus her combat spell focus (power 2) and magic pool
> (specialized, of course, in combat spells, for an 8), she has
> 12 pool dice to add to her 6 attack dice and 6 drain resistance dice.
> Needless to say she flattens people by the truckload and never takes
> drain (6 dice vs. a TN of 2 _expects_ to produce 5 successes; add just
> 3 pool dice and she's taking an L drain only if she _really_ gets
> unlucky, while throwing that force 6 stun blast, with, of course, 9
> pool dice left over for attack boosting or shielding). I believe she
> didn't take exclusivity simply because it wouldn't help statistically;
> she's already down to 2 on her drain TN!!! And fetishes are not hard
> to come by... easy to make, easy to buy, and cheap to boot. She even
> had a special case made to store some in case of a fireball or some
> such; reinforced steel/leather lined case holding 10 spare fetishes
> for emergencies. Yarg.

Whoa, bring some bucket of iced water for this man. If you read the rest
of his rambling on FAB (whazzit anyway), you'd know he was steaming angry!
<splash splash> better now, Rick? :)

First of all, I use full force as the drain target instead half force,
as suggested somewhere in the GM's section of SRII.
Second, the exclusive
spells can't be cast while sustaining another spell, or vice versa. in my
game a quickened or active spell locked spell still counts as sustained.
This means that no-one with any brains would pick an exclusive spell
(unless it was "Improved Instant Taiwanese Cookies" :)
Third, remember that the maximum magic pool dice used to boost an
attack is equal to the magic attribute of the caster

Still she's just a mage. Any selfrespecting target has willpower 5 or
6, which is the way to go if you want to survive in the grisly
mage-favoring world. Oh, and don't forget the Hyper compound from
ShadowTech. Load these babies into your favourite squirt/Narcoject gun
and the mages will be out of the game in no time.

Orf Korz Ama Tuhrminater

- Sebastian
Message no. 10
From: Gurth <gurth@******.NL>
Subject: Re: Ramblings on magic and FAB
Date: Wed, 17 May 1995 13:56:13 +0200
>Oh, and don't forget the Hyper compound from
>ShadowTech. Load these babies into your favourite squirt/Narcoject gun

This only gets fun with a toxin exhaler :)


Gurth@******.nl - Gurth@***.nl - http://www.xs4all.nl/~gurth/index.html
What do I do next?
Geek Code v2.1: GS/AT/! -d+ H s:- !g p?(3) !au a>? w+(+++) v*(---) C+(++) U
P? !L !3 E? N++ K- W+ -po+(po) Y+ t(+) 5 !j R+(++)>+++$ tv+(++) b+@ D+(++)
B? e+ u+@ h! f--(?) !r(--)(*) n---->!n y? Unofficial Shadowrun Guru :)
Message no. 11
From: P Ward <P.Ward@**.CF.AC.UK>
Subject: Re: Ramblings on magic and FAB
Date: Wed, 17 May 1995 13:24:46 BST
Gurth Wrote :-

> This only gets fun with a toxin exhaler :)

But you try carrying around all the slap-patches and specific-
toxin antidotes you need when you have a troll with multiple
toxins and a bad cold or flu, it is nhjot a pretty sight
(unless he unloads a dose of hyper into the van) ;-)

Phil (renegade)
Message no. 12
From: Jani Fikouras <feanor@**********.UNI-BREMEN.DE>
Subject: Re: Ramblings on magic and FAB
Date: Wed, 17 May 1995 16:27:36 +0200
> Query: can you attack a manifesting mage in the same way that you attack
> manifesting spirits? If so, then the pipe will just work in the same way
> as a normal melee attack on a mage would, although the presence of FAB
> would guarentee some form of knockback. (which I believe doesn;t usually
> occur on the astral)..

Look at what a manifesting magician can do and then look at what manifesting
spirits can do. Does that answer the question ? A manifesting magicain can just
sit there and talk - he is visible. A manifesting spirit can affect others
(can beat the carp out of them). So I think that its only fair that one canot
affect a manifesting mage.

--
"Tonight, hell sends an Angel bearing gifts"

GCS d H s+: !g p1 !au a- w+ v-(?) C++++ UA++S++L+$>++++ L+>+++ E--- N+ W(+)(---)
M-- !V(--) -po+(---) Y+ t++ 5++ R+++ tv b++ e+ u++(-) h*(+) f+ r- n!(-) y?
Message no. 13
From: Mark Steedman <RSMS@******.EEE.RGU.AC.UK>
Subject: Re: Ramblings on magic and FAB
Date: Wed, 17 May 1995 16:58:17 GMT
ATREIDE - Aymeric RICHARD writes

> > Query: can you attack a manifesting mage in the same way that you attack
> > manifesting spirits? If so, then the pipe will just work in the same way
> > as a normal melee attack on a mage would, although the presence of FAB
> > would guarentee some form of knockback. (which I believe doesn;t usually
> > occur on the astral)..
> My answer is based on 2 questions ;-)
> 1) Can a spirit in manifestation form act on phisical world ?
> YES
> 2) Can a mage in manifestation form act on phisical world ?
> NO
>
> Answer :
> These are 2 types of manifestation... Deduce consequences
>
But FAB nets are supposed to enclose full astral mages!! I think you
misunderstood me. This query is based on the fact that the bit of
tree is alive and therefore has a 'living' aura , hance astral
objects CANNOT pass through it. Wether said mage is manifest or not
is irrelevant in this case!!!

> There is no knockback specified in rules because (I think) FASA considered
> UP and DOWN does not really matters in Astral (mages can fly) so they cannot
> fall (which is the main good point in knocking back). Moreover even though
> magicians are pushed by a blow movement in Astral is so fast that it does
> not have any consequence in tactics.
>
Mark
Message no. 14
From: ATREIDE - Aymeric RICHARD <arichard@****.IRESTE.FR>
Subject: Re: Ramblings on magic and FAB
Date: Wed, 17 May 1995 18:51:05 +0100
Mark wrote :
> But FAB nets are supposed to enclose full astral mages!! I think you
> misunderstood me. This query is based on the fact that the bit of
> tree is alive and therefore has a 'living' aura , hance astral
> objects CANNOT pass through it. Wether said mage is manifest or not
> is irrelevant in this case!!!
Now I understand what you wrote... As you supposed I did not understood
that the pipe was filled with FAB.
As far as I'm concerned I will not use FAB but I keep the rule that living
things block, but BIG things so ok for a wall covered by bushes.

--
|-----------------------------------------------------------------------------|
| ATREIDE | GCS d(++) H--() s !g p*+ au a- !v |
| Aymeric RICHARD - Atreide on IRC | C+(++) UL+ P?>+ L+>++ N+ E- W M-- |
| E-Mail : arichard@****.ireste.fr | Y(+) t+ R+(++) G' !tv b++ D+ u**- |
|-----------------------------------------------------------------------------|
Message no. 15
From: Sebastian Wiers <seb@***.RIPCO.COM>
Subject: Re: Ramblings on magic and FAB
Date: Wed, 17 May 1995 15:29:21 -0500
You said specialized in spellcasting/combat, with a combat spell focas/ blah
blah blah?
Well, sounds like s/he didn't study much shielding. How many out there use
the general skill (or some concentration or whatever) to determine shielding
dice? Spellcasting might count, since you know spells, but socery has other
uses...
Combat specialized mages are nasty, but specialized. Hit em where it hurts-
hapens to me all the time.
-the other Sebastian
Message no. 16
From: Stefan Struck <struck@******.INFORMATIK.UNI-BONN.DE>
Subject: Re: Ramblings on magic and FAB
Date: Thu, 18 May 1995 09:06:34 +0200
Jani wrote:
> Look at what a manifesting magician can do and then look at what manifesting
> spirits can do. Does that answer the question ? A manifesting magicain can just
> sit there and talk - he is visible. A manifesting spirit can affect others
> (can beat the carp out of them). So I think that its only fair that one canot
> affect a manifesting mage.
>
Some time ago someone said that Fasa's mixing manifest and manifest with two
different meanings.
First : Manfesting mages
Second: Manifest Power
IMHO this hits the point. They are just not the same.
bye,
Stefan
---------------------------------------------------------------------
e-mail: struck@****.informatik.uni-bonn.de
---------------------------------------------------------------------
Message no. 17
From: P Ward <P.Ward@**.CF.AC.UK>
Subject: Re: Ramblings on magic and FAB
Date: Fri, 19 May 1995 12:25:39 BST
Sebastian Wrote
> You said specialized in spellcasting/combat, with a combat spell focas/ blah

According to the NAGA, the spell-purpose, etc specilisation of sorcery
actually does count for shileding/spell defense purposes, but only for
that category, if you have spell-casting then that doesn't count (I think)

It's like a web, connected at both ends.

Sorcery :- casting and defense
Casting :- Casting only, for all purposes
Defense :- Defense only, for all purposes
Purpose :- casting and defence, but only for that purpose

Note that 'Purpose' is a speciailsation of both 'Casting' and 'Defense'
Concentrations. Ho-hum.

It gets fiddly, but it's pretty simple really.


The combat-purpose focus, that doesn't count for spell-defense, even
against combat spells.

Phil (Runs-With-The-Pack, who sticks to General SKills and Power Foci)
Message no. 18
From: Marc A Renouf <jormung@*****.UMICH.EDU>
Subject: Re: Ramblings on magic and FAB
Date: Fri, 19 May 1995 15:17:19 -0400
On Fri, 19 May 1995, P Ward wrote:

> The combat-purpose focus, that doesn't count for spell-defense, even
> against combat spells.

Correction, you cannot allocate it as spell defense to others.
For yourself, the dice gained from Purpose Foci can be used in "resisting
the effects of spells of the applicable category," which is, in essence,
spell defense. Look in the definition of Purpose Foci in the Shadowrun
II book. The two sentences are very close to each other and may seem
contradictory, but they are not.

Marc
Message no. 19
From: P Ward <P.Ward@**.CF.AC.UK>
Subject: Re: Ramblings on magic and FAB
Date: Sat, 20 May 1995 09:18:30 BST
Spell Purpose foci can be used for Spell defence on yourself?
Why not on other peolpe then?

Seems rather strange. I'll stick to Power Foci, ta.

Phil (Runs-With-The-Pack)

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