Logs for ShadowRN and Associated Mailing Lists

From:	Fade <runefo@***.UIO.NO>
Subject:	Random killing
Date:	Tue, 18 Nov 1997 02:51:22 +0000

Message no. 1 Someone posted a post about having a problem with PC's, and in
particular mages, which randomly kills a squatter (or ten), for no
apparent purpose.

This is a moral problem, and has to be addressed immediately if the
players behave in such a manner. Ask the players if that is what
their characters really would have done, and if so, if it is
characters they really wish to portray. I doubt the answer to both
those questions is yes, and if it isn't, suggest they do not do this
action. If it is yes to both, then ask yourself if you want these
guys as players. Then let it slip. Because, realistically, if someone
goes somewhere and randomly pops off a guy, there is no way in hell
he's going to get caught unless he's extremely stupid. But if he does
it a number of times, then the odds can catch up on him. Perhaps the
local gang doesn't take kindly to someone popping off the local
homeboys, and the sentry with the HMG on the roof behind the runner
decides to pop him one back. (Tripod mounted, scoped, and *MEAN*, of
course.). Gangs are more likely to dispense justice in cases like
this than the police. Or a free spirit kinda liked the guy. (Spawn,
anyone?). Don't leave them any doubt whatsoever, once the shit hits
the fan. They die, they die badly, with little or no chance of
survival, and as a direct consequence of their actions. Another
option, rather than direct justice, is to flip the coin. That guy he
just walked past draws his savalette guardian and blows his brain
out, just for the hell of it. No more chance of survival than he gave
the squatter. (First, perception test, reaction test, defence test.
All of these would have either high TN's or large numbers of
successes; enough to burn up (and then some) most karma pools.). Or a
random sniper. Things like that happen. Not often, though, just about
as often as squatters get shot for no reason... point that out, if he
asks why afterwards.

--
Fade

"My snipers can drop you. Anywhere. Anytime.
Go in peace."

From:	David Buehrer <dbuehrer@******.CARL.ORG>
Subject:	Re: Random killing
Date:	Tue, 18 Nov 1997 10:53:28 -0700

Message no. 2 Fade wrote:
/
/ Someone posted a post about having a problem with PC's, and in
/ particular mages, which randomly kills a squatter (or ten), for no
/ apparent purpose.
/
/ This is a moral problem, and has to be addressed immediately if the
/ players behave in such a manner. Ask the players if that is what
/ their characters really would have done, and if so, if it is
/ characters they really wish to portray. I doubt the answer to both
/ those questions is yes, and if it isn't, suggest they do not do this
/ action. If it is yes to both, then ask yourself if you want these
/ guys as players.

Immoral characters I got no problem with. Immoral players... it
depends <shrug>. This is something that's entirely up to the GM.
Like Fade said, make sure you differentiate the character's actions
and philosophy from the player's.

/ Then let it slip. Because, realistically, if someone
/ goes somewhere and randomly pops off a guy, there is no way in hell
/ he's going to get caught unless he's extremely stupid.

This reminds me of the scene from "Last Action Hero" where the bad
guy, after entering the RL universe, pops a street person to test the
local law enforcement. Even after shouting, "I've just killed
someone!" at the top of his lungs the only response was from a member
of the local population screaming at him to shut the fuck up. On the
one hand it was kinda funny, but on the other hand it was kinda
scary.

/ But if he does
/ it a number of times, then the odds can catch up on him.

To true.

-David
--
"Creativity is allowing yourself to make mistakes. Art is knowing
which ones to keep."
--
http://www.geocities.com/TimesSquare/1068/homepage.htm

From:	"Leszek Karlik, aka Mike" <trrkt@*****.ONET.PL>
Subject:	Re: Random killing
Date:	Tue, 18 Nov 1997 19:59:18 +0000

Message no. 3 On 18 Nov 97, David Buehrer disseminated foul capitalist propaganda
by writing:

> Fade wrote:

<snip>

> Immoral characters I got no problem with. Immoral players... it
> depends <shrug>. This is something that's entirely up to the GM.
> Like Fade said, make sure you differentiate the character's actions
> and philosophy from the player's.

Yep. Well, we've got one player who plays a sammy. Sammy with lots of
cyber and a psychosis. Jeeez. You can't imagine the troubles he can
brew... Like, two guys wanted to mug him for a cigarette, so he gave
them the cigarette and then shot them.
We're forcing him to change now, since he had to have a plastic
surgery after a big problem with Lone Star and medias. He looks like
an ork now. (And he's a racist... And we've got an orcish sammy...)
The "behave or I'll Thought Control you" threat does wonders, though.
Besides, we told him he can have as much fun as he wants, but not
during the work.

But it has nothing to do with the player. The same player plays a
great Jedi in SW (I've got two Jedis - one is already halfway to the
Dark Side, but the other one keeps on going...).

And you really wouldn't like to meet my Amber Shapeshifter, Galtai,
the meanest, most amoral SOB I've ever met (or played, for that
matter). He's fun to play, though...

<snip>
> This reminds me of the scene from "Last Action Hero" where the bad
> guy, after entering the RL universe, pops a street person to test
> the local law enforcement. Even after shouting, "I've just killed
> someone!" at the top of his lungs the only response was from a
> member of the local population screaming at him to shut the fuck up.
> On the one hand it was kinda funny, but on the other hand it was
> kinda scary.

Yep. That's the one. And that's how it looks in the Barrens.
Actually, our GM would probably have no problem with frying some
squatter in the Barrens. I mean, gangs over there have FA
weapons... Lone Star has other things to do...

Leszek Karlik, aka Mike - trrkt@*****.onet.pl; http://www.wlkp.top.pl/~bear/mike; FIAWOL
FL/GN Leszek/Raptor II/ISD Vanguard, (SS) (PC) (ISM) {IWATS-IIC} JH(Sith)/House Scholae
Palatinae
A clean desk is a sign of a cluttered desk drawer.

From:	Gurth <gurth@******.NL>
Subject:	Re: Random killing
Date:	Wed, 19 Nov 1997 11:52:37 +0100

Message no. 4 Leszek Karlik, aka Mike said on 19:59/18 Nov 97...

> Yep. Well, we've got one player who plays a sammy. Sammy with lots of
> cyber and a psychosis. Jeeez. You can't imagine the troubles he can
> brew... Like, two guys wanted to mug him for a cigarette, so he gave
> them the cigarette and then shot them.

I've got a similar problem with some of my players... They come across a
few gangers demanding "breath tax," 25 nuyen per person. They've just
gotten something like 12,500 nuyen as advance payment for their current
run but refuse to pay the gangers, instead shooting one of them with a
narcoject and cleaving the other in half with a sword (IIRC the
sword-wielder got 6 or so net successes...).

--
Gurth@******.nl - http://www.xs4all.nl/~gurth/index.html
The future. Available tomorrow.
-> NERPS Project Leader & Unofficial Shadowrun Guru <-
-> The Plastic Warriors Page: http://www.xs4all.nl/~gurth/plastic.html <-
-> The New Character Mortuary: http://www.electricferret.com/mortuary/ <-

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From:	losthalo <losthalo@********.COM>
Subject:	Re: Random killing
Date:	Wed, 19 Nov 1997 12:31:29 -0500

Message no. 5 At 11:52 AM 11/19/97 +0100, you wrote:

>I've got a similar problem with some of my players... They come across a
>few gangers demanding "breath tax," 25 nuyen per person. They've just
>gotten something like 12,500 nuyen as advance payment for their current
>run but refuse to pay the gangers, instead shooting one of them with a
>narcoject and cleaving the other in half with a sword (IIRC the
>sword-wielder got 6 or so net successes...).

I this depends on *why* these characters did these things. Was it because
25 -Y- mattered to them, or a cigarette? Surely not. But if I'm a
professinal killer, I'm not going to get mugged, even if it's for 25 -Y-,
right? If nothing else, think of your self-respect and reputation here.
Not only this, but... one might expect someone who's altered their body to
become a weapon to be rather violent, if provoked. Threatening me with a
weapon would really bother me, especially if the punk should know better,
right? And if he's on my walk home, well, he's pulling this shit in my
neighborhood? No, I don't need that drek around where I live, I see enough
violence doing jobs for the Mafia and Yamatetsu. Maybe the next pair of
muggers will think twice.

Now, if they did it just because the players like 'killing stuff', suggest
they go back to fantasy games where everything you kill has an x.p. award
attached to it, even if it's just a giant squirrel.

losthalo

From:	"Ojaste,James [NCR]" <James.Ojaste@**.GC.CA>
Subject:	Re: Random killing
Date:	Wed, 19 Nov 1997 15:01:51 -0500

Message no. 6 Leszek Karlik, aka Mike[SMTP:trrkt@*****.ONET.PL] wrote:
> > Immoral characters I got no problem with. Immoral players... it
> > depends <shrug>. This is something that's entirely up to the GM.
> > Like Fade said, make sure you differentiate the character's actions
> > and philosophy from the player's.
[snip]
> And you really wouldn't like to meet my Amber Shapeshifter, Galtai,
> the meanest, most amoral SOB I've ever met (or played, for that
> matter). He's fun to play, though...

<ramble>
Yeah - the most annoying, psychotic, or just plain mean characters
are usually the most fun to play for some reason. The only
problem is that the character has to be (in some way) competent,
or else they'll get stabbed in the back (or shot, shadow
permitting ;-) ).

It's a tricky balance to maintain at times, and it's even harder
to know when the character *would* cross the line. It really
sucks sending characters into situations that you know will
kill them...
</ramble>

Ah well, c'est la vie.

James Ojaste

From:	Lady Jestyr <jestyr@*******.DIALIX.COM.AU>
Subject:	Re: Random killing
Date:	Thu, 20 Nov 1997 08:59:22 +1100

Message no. 7 > >I've got a similar problem with some of my players... They come across a
> >few gangers demanding "breath tax," 25 nuyen per person. They've just
> >gotten something like 12,500 nuyen as advance payment for their current
> >run but refuse to pay the gangers, instead shooting one of them with a
> >narcoject and cleaving the other in half with a sword (IIRC the
> >sword-wielder got 6 or so net successes...).
>
> I this depends on *why* these characters did these things. Was it because
> 25 -Y- mattered to them, or a cigarette? Surely not. But if I'm a
> professinal killer, I'm not going to get mugged, even if it's for 25 -Y-,
> right? If nothing else, think of your self-respect and reputation here.
> Not only this, but... one might expect someone who's altered their body to
<nibble>

The sad thing is that there's such an easy way to turn this into a
situation in the PCs' favour without resorting to disgusting amounts of
violence. Situation: PCs get mugged. Response: PCs display guns, violent
cyberware etc, channel some raw mana, whatever, and make it perfectly
clear that if the punks mess with them the punks will be *dead*. Then
give the punks *fifty* nuyen each, not 25, and ask them if they know
anything about "that building over there" (or whatever the players think
they might be able to get some useful information on).

The punks get to live, the PCs don't turn into violent idiots, they get
a useful source of information, and making buddies with your local gang
is often a good thing.

Sheesh. And it seems so *obvious* to me...

Lady Jestyr

-------------------------------------------------------------
"All right! Bovine intervention!!!" -- The Tick
-------------------------------------------------------------
Elle Holmes jestyr@*******.dialix.com.au
http://jestyr.home.ml.org/
-------------------------------------------------------------

From:	"Paul J. Adam" <shadowrn@********.DEMON.CO.UK>
Subject:	Re: Random killing
Date:	Thu, 20 Nov 1997 00:14:31 +0000

Message no. 8 In article <Pine.BSF.3.95.971120085539.7701A-
100000@*******.dialix.com.au>, Lady Jestyr
<jestyr@*******.DIALIX.COM.AU> writes
>The sad thing is that there's such an easy way to turn this into a
>situation in the PCs' favour without resorting to disgusting amounts of
>violence. Situation: PCs get mugged. Response: PCs display guns, violent
>cyberware etc, channel some raw mana, whatever, and make it perfectly
>clear that if the punks mess with them the punks will be *dead*. Then
>give the punks *fifty* nuyen each, not 25, and ask them if they know
>anything about "that building over there" (or whatever the players think
>they might be able to get some useful information on).
>
>The punks get to live, the PCs don't turn into violent idiots, they get
>a useful source of information, and making buddies with your local gang
>is often a good thing.
>
>Sheesh. And it seems so *obvious* to me...

I saw it in a movie, but it works for me too :)

(King of New York, dir. Abel Ferrara. Starred Christopher Walken.
Brilliant movie...)

--
There are four kinds of homicide: felonious, excusable, justifiable and
praiseworthy...

Paul J. Adam paul@********.demon.co.uk

From:	Tim Cooper <z-i-m@****.COM>
Subject:	Re: Random killing
Date:	Thu, 20 Nov 1997 00:48:14 EST

Message no. 9 On Thu, 20 Nov 1997 08:59:22 +1100 Lady Jestyr writes:
[snip]

>The punks get to live, the PCs don't turn into violent idiots, they get
>a useful source of information, and making buddies with your local gang
>is often a good thing.

Well, if it's your *local* gang, then you'd think that the runners would
have enough brains to be exempt from their pestering through some sort of
deal with the local Boss (it's always nice to have extra security, or an
advance warning system - just make sure that it's paid well, or it may
give you up to a higher bidder).

~Tim

From:	Tim Cooper <z-i-m@****.COM>
Subject:	Re: Random killing
Date:	Thu, 20 Nov 1997 00:48:14 EST

Message no. 10 On Wed, 19 Nov 1997 11:52:37 +0100 Gurth <gurth@******.NL> writes:

>I've got a similar problem with some of my players... They come across a
>few gangers demanding "breath tax," 25 nuyen per person. They've just
>gotten something like 12,500 nuyen as advance payment for their current
>run but refuse to pay the gangers, instead shooting one of them with a
>narcoject and cleaving the other in half with a sword (IIRC the
>sword-wielder got 6 or so net successes...).

Well, sure... I've got characters that'd do the same. It's not the
money, but the principle of the matter.

Anyway, the important thing is why didn't the ganger's sniper (they did
have one didn't they, to enforce the "tax"?) take them out... or are you
just waiting till the runners hole-up so the rest of the gang can seek
retribution. 'Course you can always just have the gangers show up at the
most in-oportune time (like in the middle of an otherwise nice and
stealthy extraction) and make a big mess, etc..

~Tim

From:	Gurth <gurth@******.NL>
Subject:	Re: Random killing
Date:	Thu, 20 Nov 1997 11:40:52 +0100

Message no. 11 Tim Cooper said on 0:48/20 Nov 97...

[breath tax]
> Anyway, the important thing is why didn't the ganger's sniper (they did
> have one didn't they, to enforce the "tax"?) take them out...

He tried, and missed most of the time. I guess he positioned himself too
far away to be useful.

> or are you just waiting till the runners hole-up so the rest of the gang
> can seek retribution. 'Course you can always just have the gangers show
> up at the most in-oportune time (like in the middle of an otherwise nice
> and stealthy extraction) and make a big mess, etc..

I might just do that... Thanks for the idea ;)

--
Gurth@******.nl - http://www.xs4all.nl/~gurth/index.html
The future. Available tomorrow.
-> NERPS Project Leader & Unofficial Shadowrun Guru <-
-> The Plastic Warriors Page: http://www.xs4all.nl/~gurth/plastic.html <-
-> The New Character Mortuary: http://www.electricferret.com/mortuary/ <-

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From:	"David R. Lowe" <dlowe@****.COM>
Subject:	Re: Random killing
Date:	Thu, 20 Nov 1997 12:33:39 -0800

Message no. 12 At 11:40 AM 11/20/97, Gurth wrote:
<snip whol lotta stuff about players offing everyone they meet>

My players seem to know better than to just waste randoms on the street. My
basic philosophy on NPCs is that every NPC is a potential contact.

While the common response is to set the players up with tougher opposition
than they expect and smack them down right then and there. I tend to take
the long term approach. I usually frag with their resources, either
contacts or stuff.

Think about it, word gets out that one or several of the runners are
popping folks randomly. Soon, contacts will stop talking to them for fear
of association, tires get slashed, molotov coctails get tossed though the
window of their fancy wharehouse in the barrens. Drek will start to fall if
they act unsociably.

Other ideas: Jane Ganger they messed up is the run-away daughter of some
corp exec. He'll find out who did it, and several months later they get a
run that's a set-up or a double-cross.

Joe Squatter sitting on the street is actually an undercover media photog
doing a story on chip dealing. When they pull the chip out of his skull and
play it back, guess who's faces are on the 10:00 o'clock news?

Billy Ganger, left for dead, has Spider climb into his ear and bring him
back from the great beyond. Several months later the runners find they are
caught up in a web of revenge by a crazed spider shaman (no, not
Spidey-Mon!)

I always try to go for the long-term retribution. It's so much more
satisfying than just gunning them down on the streets.

D.

David R. Lowe (dlowe@****.com)
Photography/Graphic Design

"HTML, the most fun you can have without a vowel."

Hey, there's a URL in my sig file now!
Check it out at www.lowephoto.com.

-
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From:	losthalo <losthalo@********.COM>
Subject:	Re: Random killing
Date:	Thu, 20 Nov 1997 16:30:38 -0500

Message no. 13 At 12:33 PM 11/20/97 -0800, you wrote:

>I always try to go for the long-term retribution. It's so much more
>satisfying than just gunning them down on the streets.

And the reference that immediately came to mind here is Molly's little
story she tells Case in Neuromancer, late in the novel, about Yakuza-style
revenge. Cold, slow, and inevitable. They'll let you run for a while,
think you've got away, and then strike once you have something to lose. :)

losthalo

From:	"David R. Lowe" <dlowe@****.COM>
Subject:	Re: Random killing
Date:	Thu, 20 Nov 1997 13:41:39 -0800

Message no. 14 At 4:30 PM 11/20/97, losthalo wrote:
>At 12:33 PM 11/20/97 -0800, you wrote:
>
>>I always try to go for the long-term retribution. It's so much more
>>satisfying than just gunning them down on the streets.
>
>And the reference that immediately came to mind here is Molly's little
>story she tells Case in Neuromancer, late in the novel, about Yakuza-style
>revenge. Cold, slow, and inevitable. They'll let you run for a while,
>think you've got away, and then strike once you have something to lose. :)

Game I was in a looooong time ago one of the players fragged off the Yaks.
A year later his younger sister was a washed-up chip head in a Yak pleasure
house. Mean GM, mean.

D.

David R. Lowe (dlowe@****.com)
Photography/Graphic Design

"HTML, the most fun you can have without a vowel."

Hey, there's a URL in my sig file now!
Check it out at www.lowephoto.com.

-
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From:	"Jackson, Hank" <Hank.Jackson@*********.COM>
Subject:	Re: Random killing
Date:	Thu, 20 Nov 1997 17:07:51 -0500

Message no. 15 In my game, I haven't gone for the long term retribution. The act
committed was so foolish that I had to teach my players that this is not
acceptable, right now. They were upset by being extorted by the local
gangs. After resisting the extortion once and getting beat up because
of it, they were pissed. So one night they had business to conduct on
Psycho turf. Well, I couldn't just let them waltz in and out. So while
they were leaving they heard footsteps behind them and turned to see two
Psychos following them while informing others of their location. Upon
being told that an LAPD refueling station was nearby, they presumed that
they were safe and turned around, pulled guns and shot the two Psychos
dead. Then they ran away laughing. Now they have 30 new enemies and
have been having trouble going about life without running into Psychos.
Not only that, but they have demonstrated that they are not `properly'
fearful of LA gangs, so every other gang in the city feels the need to
make them feel fear. I felt extremely justified in doing whatever to
them to get it through their minds that gratuitous killing has dire
consequences.

Galen

From:	"J. Keith Henry" <Ereskanti@***.COM>
Subject:	Re: Random killing
Date:	Sat, 22 Nov 1997 17:33:46 -0500

Message no. 16 In a message dated 97-11-19 17:05:41 EST, jestyr@*******.DIALIX.COM.AU
writes:

> The punks get to live, the PCs don't turn into violent idiots, they get
> a useful source of information, and making buddies with your local gang
> is often a good thing.
>
> Sheesh. And it seems so *obvious* to me...
>
> Lady Jestyr
>
Very obvious actually...but the original gun-brawling, violence impending,
situation is so familiar....sad.

-K

From:	Tobias Berghoff <Zixx@*****.TEUTO.DE>
Subject:	Re: Random killing
Date:	Sun, 23 Nov 1997 15:36:00 GMT

Message no. 17 on 20.11.97 dlowe@****.COM wrote:

d> >>I always try to go for the long-term retribution. It's so much more
d> >>satisfying than just gunning them down on the streets.
d> >
d> >And the reference that immediately came to mind here is Molly's little
d> >story she tells Case in Neuromancer, late in the novel, about Yakuza-style
d> >revenge. Cold, slow, and inevitable. They'll let you run for a while,
d> >think you've got away, and then strike once you have something to lose.
d> >:)
d>
d> Game I was in a looooong time ago one of the players fragged off the Yaks.
d> A year later his younger sister was a washed-up chip head in a Yak pleasure
d> house. Mean GM, mean.

O.K. here's another nice one: In my group there is a guy who really pissed
of the Yaks (he practically handed on of their territorys over to the
Mafia). Now, he's got a grilfriend and he's really in love (Yes Barbie,
you know the story). The bad thing is that she's a Yakuza-life-waster.
She'll try to marry him, maybe they'll get a child. And in a year, maybe
two, she kills him. Nice, ain't it.

Tobias Berghoff a.k.a Zixx a.k.a. Charon, your friendly werepanther physad.

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