Back to the main page

Mailing List Logs for ShadowRN

Message no. 1
From: Scott Taylor Spencer <sts100z@********.CC.ODU.EDU>
Subject: ranges
Date: Wed, 8 Mar 1995 12:21:37 -0500
Ok all you wonderful runners, I have a question for you. Does any
besides me have a problem with the ranges that SRII gives? Why does a
sniper rifle have less distance than a MMG? Any answers would be
appreciated.

Thanx
Angus Blackwatch the Scotish Troll
Scott Spencer (secret Identity)
Message no. 2
From: Damion Milliken <adm82@***.EDU.AU>
Subject: Re: ranges
Date: Thu, 9 Mar 1995 12:45:05 +1000
Scott Taylor Spencer writes:

> Ok all you wonderful runners, I have a question for you. Does any
> besides me have a problem with the ranges that SRII gives? Why does a
> sniper rifle have less distance than a MMG? Any answers would be
> appreciated.

Everybody has a problem with SR ranges. Most people (like me) couldn't be
bothered or do not have suffieient knowledge to rectify the problem however.
Some of the more military/weaponry knowledgeable on the list have changed the
ranges though (I think Marc redid the lot, using real world ranges - If you
have Marc (or anyone else) would you mind posting the new range tables, as I
would like to change mine someday?).

--
Damion Milliken University of Wollongong E-mail: adm82@***.edu.au

(GEEK CODE 2.1) GE -d+@ H s++:-- !g p0 !au a18 w+ v(?) C++ US++>+++ P+ L !3
E? N K- W M@ !V po@ Y+ t+ 5 !j R+(++) G(+)('''') !tv(--@)
b++ D B? e+ u@ h* f+ !r n----(--)@ !y+
Message no. 3
From: Gurth <gurth@******.NL>
Subject: Re: ranges
Date: Thu, 9 Mar 1995 14:17:06 +0100
>Ok all you wonderful runners, I have a question for you. Does any
>besides me have a problem with the ranges that SRII gives? Why does a
>sniper rifle have less distance than a MMG? Any answers would be
>appreciated.

We've had this a million times, I think :), so here goes: the ranges are
ridiculous for half of the weapon types in SR. Reaver posted a more accurate
range table last week I believe, so check the logs for that one. I
personally am also of the opinion that the ranges for some weapons need to
be altered, but I haven't done it (yet).


Gurth@******.nl - Gurth@***.nl - http://www.xs4all.nl/~gurth/index.html
They're the self-appointed righteous pragmatists
And they know fifty ways to save the world
Geek Code v2.1: GS/AT/! -d+ H s:- !g p?(3) !au a>? w+(+++) v*(---) C+(++) U
P? !L !3 E? N++ K- W+ -po+(po) Y+ t(+) 5 !j R+(++)>+++$ tv+(++) b+@ D+(++)
B? e+ u+@ h! f--(?) !r(--)(*) n---->!n y?
Message no. 4
From: Luc <rjwate01@********.SPD.LOUISVILLE.EDU>
Subject: Re: ranges
Date: Thu, 9 Mar 1995 12:52:17 EST
>
> Ok all you wonderful runners, I have a question for you. Does any
> besides me have a problem with the ranges that SRII gives? Why does a
> sniper rifle have less distance than a MMG? Any answers would be
> appreciated.
>
yes yes yes

actually just yesterday a friend (kilroy) and I were talking about the goofy
ranges and both agree that 'edge of the sword' is a good source for ranges.
I'm working on setting up conversions so that items out of 'edge of the sword'
can be used for shadowrun second edition (will probably take a week).

Luc
Message no. 5
From: Quicksilver <jhurley1@****.STEVENS-TECH.EDU>
Subject: Re: ranges
Date: Fri, 10 Mar 1995 12:02:10 -30000
On Thu, 9 Mar 1995, Gurth wrote:

> >Ok all you wonderful runners, I have a question for you. Does any
> >besides me have a problem with the ranges that SRII gives? Why does a
> >sniper rifle have less distance than a MMG? Any answers would be
> >appreciated.
>
> We've had this a million times, I think :), so here goes: the ranges are
> ridiculous for half of the weapon types in SR. Reaver posted a more accurate
> range table last week I believe, so check the logs for that one. I
> personally am also of the opinion that the ranges for some weapons need to
> be altered, but I haven't done it (yet).

Yes, the ranges are incredibly short for the weapons, IF YOU ARE ON A
RANGE AND HAVE THE TIME TO AIM. In most SR firefights, you are in a
restricted space, shooting from the hip, and doing the see target,
acquire target, aim and shoot (or the draw, nock, aim, release, for the
archers out there) in a second or less.
[we pause while quicksilver goes and gets his copy of Fiels of Fire]

Let's take an assault rifle (downtown and blow away some U2C's! Mayber
not...)
Ranges are 0-15,16-40,41-100,101-250. (which, incidentally, outranges an
LMG, and compares favorably with a sinper rifle).

250 meters in a LONG way. Go out to an american football field. Stand
at one endzone. (You can do this on a real football (soccer) field too,
but I think they are larger (having not played soccer since grade school).
Anyone in the other endzone is quite far away. now 250 meters is more
than twice that distance. OK, the base TN is 9. But we are on a range,
remember. So we can aim for our firearms skill DIV 2 round, bringing the
9 TN down to 7 (for a firearms skill of 4), which is a 6 under standard
rules. On 8 dice (4 combat pool, which almost everyone will have, if
they are enough on the ball to have gotten that 4 firearms (min two stats
of 3 and a stat of 2), that averages to 1.333... successes, or every
third shot will have two successes. On iron sights, with an ROF of 1
AIMED shot every six seconds(which is faster than most people fire on
the range, anyway.) Under standard rules, with a mag-3 scope, this TN is
reduced to 2! (Alert, house rule)

Now, if you are complaining about sniping applications, I agree with you
a bit. Here's what I do: Instead of bringing the range categories down,
scopes do the following, they multiply the range category by their rating+1.
IE, a mag-3 scope on an assault rifle changes the range table to the
following:0-60 (15*4), 61-160 (40*4), 161-400 (100*4), 401-1000 (250*4).
You can now hit someone at 1600 meters with a well-sighted sniper rifle.
It's still a bitch of a shot, even with firearms 6 (tn 6+), but it can be
done.

On to table differences such as MMGs having a better range that sniping
rifles: If you look at the table, a MG that chambers the same round in
front of the same powder (approx) as the sniping rifle, you'll note that
it has a significantly *shorter* range than the sniping rifle. Yes, the
heavy weapons have a longer range than the sniping rifle. But, they
chamber a heavier round with more powder behind it, using a longer
barrel. Yes, they do have a longer effective range. But their SHORT
range is the same as the sniping rifle, and the ranges compare favorably
until extreme range.

Which brings me to a point I have to make: I don't mind the ranges, I
think the damage codes are broken. When the way armor worked in SRI
changed, they should have changed the damge codes as well.

Let's analyze the components of a damage code. What is the power in game
terms, and what are it's effects? The power of a round in SRII is
strictly (under the game mechanics) a measure of it armor-piercing
ability. the damage level of a round is how efficiently it dumps its
kinetic energy into a target. (Yes, I know the game claims these
attributes are not quite the same, but that's what the rules model out
to). So why does a slow, large bullet penentrate armor better, yet deal
as much or less damage when it does penentrate, as a fast small bullet? (9M
heavy pistol, 8M assault rifle, 7S (!) sporting rifle)??? I propose the
following......

Hold-Outs should continue with their 4 power rating, but the damage code
should be upped to M, or in the case of a few, vastly overpowered
derringers, to S(You shoot someone with a .45 caliber pistol bullet, at
closer than 5 meters (Short range for a HO) I don't care what he's
wearing, he's gonna feel it! And so are you.... Recoil is a bitch).
Light Pistols should do the same amount of damage as an SMG (They use the
same ammo....) probably 6-8M. Heavy Pistols, with their large, slow
bullets, should do 5-7S. Rifles: Assault rifles, with their light, fast
bullets, should have a lot of power, in the 7-9 range, but only do base L
damage. Sport and Sniping rifles should do the same amount of damage,
with sniping rifles doing a little more. Call it in the 8-10 range with
a base power of M (Thease are heavier bullets, on average, than the AR
chambers. Yes, that makes these weapons the most damaging small arms in
the game, short of shotguns. A talented hunter (Firearms 4-5) can drop
an average bear (Bod 9/1) with a single shot, with only a bit of luck).
Shotguns slugs are OK, being both relatively fast and heavy, they would
average 8-10S. LMGs would chamber AR ammo, but maybe have a little more
power due to their longer barrel, giving them a 8-11 L rating. Heavy
weapons are a little beyond the scope, but the Heavy Weapon MGs should do
9-12 M (maybe S for an HMG), and I have no idea what a panther should do
(Lots N(for Nasty), definitely).

Ammo: APDS continues to do what it does. Explosive ammo ups the damage,
but *lowers* the power(massive, but superficial wounds). Flechette(ie
shot) ups the power, uses the shot rules, and is resisted by 1.5(2?)*
ballistic. (Chainmail won't stop shot too well, but would have a
relatively high impact, now, won't it?) Tracer remains the same, EX
explosive reduces power more, but ups damage code by 2(pre-det is a
bitch). Stun/Gel goes against impact with a reduced power and
upped damage level for pistols and non Assault rifles (ARs chamber too
small a round for stun rounds to be effective), and a shotgun just
changes to stun damage.

Where does that leave us? With a reason to use anything short of a Heavy
pistol for a sidearm, Rifles having better penentration than pistols,
skill being more important with a rifle(if you hit someone in the arm
with a 5.56 round, it is probably going through with minimal energy loss
unless it hits the bone. A pistol slug is going to stay in, and most
likely rip a larger hole in the arm), and a slightly more logical damage
rating system.

Any complaints? Fine, send them to /dev/null@**********.org

Just kidding..... I'll even listen to flames. But I reserved my wet,
dikoted, cyber-carp already, so I just might use it on YOU.

:-)

Chavez:"I want to see his eyes when it happens."
Clark:"So use a good scope on the rifle."
Message no. 6
From: Damion Milliken <adm82@***.EDU.AU>
Subject: Re: ranges
Date: Sat, 11 Mar 1995 15:28:16 +1000
Quicksilver writes:

[Why SR ranges are poor]

Well, you convinced me. That all makes quite nice sense.

> Now, if you are complaining about sniping applications, I agree with you
> a bit. Here's what I do: Instead of bringing the range categories down,
> scopes do the following, they multiply the range category by their rating+1.
> IE, a mag-3 scope on an assault rifle changes the range table to the
> following:0-60 (15*4), 61-160 (40*4), 161-400 (100*4), 401-1000 (250*4).
> You can now hit someone at 1600 meters with a well-sighted sniper rifle.
> It's still a bitch of a shot, even with firearms 6 (tn 6+), but it can be
> done.

This is a little tricky with some weapons. Namely that sighted shotgun, or
that sighted heavy pistol. These weapons (so I'm told) have about the
correct ranges as it is. If one does this, we end up giving them ranges
which they are not going to be able to achieve.

> Hold-Outs should continue with their 4 power rating, but the damage code
> should be upped to M, or in the case of a few, vastly overpowered
> derringers, to S(You shoot someone with a .45 caliber pistol bullet, at
> closer than 5 meters (Short range for a HO) I don't care what he's
> wearing, he's gonna feel it! And so are you.... Recoil is a bitch).

I like the sounds of your arguments here. Many time on here we've discussed
the problem with Hold-outs; namely that they do shit all damage when in fact
they use pretty nasty rounds.

[Other weapons snipped]

Hmm, you seem to know what you're talking about. Have you actually gone
through and changed the weapon damages yet?

> Explosive ammo ups the damage, but *lowers* the power(massive, but
> superficial wounds).

You mean something like -2 Power, +1 Wound Category?

> Flechette(ie shot) ups the power, uses the shot rules, and is resisted by
> 1.5(2?)* ballistic. (Chainmail won't stop shot too well, but would have a
> relatively high impact, now, won't it?)

Soe Flechette would clock in at something like +2 Power, and resisted using
1.5 times ballistic? Would you have flchette rounds from, say a pistol for
eg, use the same shot spreading rules as shot rounds from a shotgun? [As a
side note, what kind of ratings would you assign chainmail and platemail?]

> Tracer remains the same

They have a -1 Power by the rules don't they? That doesn't make an awful lot
of sense to me, wouldn't the have the same damage as normal rounds?

> EX explosive reduces power more, but ups damage code by 2

Ouch! So they get a -4 Power, +2 Wound Category (or similar)?

> Stun/Gel goes against impact with a reduced power and upped damage level
> for pistols and non Assault rifles (ARs chamber too small a round for stun
> rounds to be effective), and a shotgun just changes to stun damage.

So Stun rounds (for weapons other than ARs and LMGs) get a -2 Power, and use
impact armour? While ARs and LMGs do not have stun rounds. And Shotguns do
their normal damage, but stun instead?

[BTW, it was the threat of the cyber-carp which made me agree with you :-)]

--
Damion Milliken University of Wollongong E-mail: adm82@***.edu.au

(GEEK CODE 2.1) GE -d+@ H s++:-- !g p0 !au a18 w+ v(?) C++ US++>+++ P+ L !3
E? N K- W M@ !V po@ Y+ t+ 5 !j R+(++) G(+)('''') !tv(--@)
b++ D B? e+ u@ h* f+ !r n----(--)@ !y+
Message no. 7
From: Quicksilver <jhurley1@****.STEVENS-TECH.EDU>
Subject: Re: ranges
Date: Sat, 11 Mar 1995 03:31:09 -30000
On Sat, 11 Mar 1995, Damion Milliken wrote:

> Quicksilver writes:
>
> [Why SR ranges are poor]
>
> Well, you convinced me. That all makes quite nice sense.
>
> > Now, if you are complaining about sniping applications, I agree with you
> > a bit. Here's what I do: Instead of bringing the range categories down,
> > scopes do the following, they multiply the range category by their rating+1.
> > IE, a mag-3 scope on an assault rifle changes the range table to the
> > following:0-60 (15*4), 61-160 (40*4), 161-400 (100*4), 401-1000 (250*4).
> > You can now hit someone at 1600 meters with a well-sighted sniper rifle.
> > It's still a bitch of a shot, even with firearms 6 (tn 6+), but it can be
> > done.
>
> This is a little tricky with some weapons. Namely that sighted shotgun, or
> that sighted heavy pistol. These weapons (so I'm told) have about the
> correct ranges as it is. If one does this, we end up giving them ranges
> which they are not going to be able to achieve.

Don't allow sights on pistols. Or set a max range. Or both. Or
neither. I think that a heavy pistol should be able to kick a bullet out
to 200 m, just don't expect to hit a man-sized target. A shotgun firing
slugs would have a pretty long range. But I can't see justifying using a
scope on a shot load.

{snip}
>
> [Other weapons snipped]
>
> Hmm, you seem to know what you're talking about. Have you actually gone
> through and changed the weapon damages yet?

Given it a lot of thought. Haven't (yet) playtested them. May start a
playtest campaign.

>
> > Explosive ammo ups the damage, but *lowers* the power(massive, but
> > superficial wounds).
>
> You mean something like -2 Power, +1 Wound Category?

Around there

>
> > Flechette(ie shot) ups the power, uses the shot rules, and is resisted by
> > 1.5(2?)* ballistic. (Chainmail won't stop shot too well, but would have a
> > relatively high impact, now, won't it?)
>
> Soe Flechette would clock in at something like +2 Power, and resisted using
> 1.5 times ballistic? Would you have flchette rounds from, say a pistol for
> eg, use the same shot spreading rules as shot rounds from a shotgun? [As a
> side note, what kind of ratings would you assign chainmail and platemail?]

Whoops. Substitute code for power above. Call it +1 damage level.
Flechette rounds from a (standard) weapon would be the equivalent of
Glazer slugs today. Shot would be choked. Same damage, one uses shotgun
choke rules, one doesn't. I'm a little hazy on these rounds.

>
> > Tracer remains the same
>
> They have a -1 Power by the rules don't they? That doesn't make an awful lot
> of sense to me, wouldn't the have the same damage as normal rounds?

Not quite. The tracer round itself does not count for power, but does
count for damage level, in multi-round bursts. Makes sense, considering
that a tracer round is much lighter than a regular bullet. It won't
penentrate drek-all.

>
> > EX explosive reduces power more, but ups damage code by 2
>
> Ouch! So they get a -4 Power, +2 Wound Category (or similar)?

Maybe a -3.

>
> > Stun/Gel goes against impact with a reduced power and upped damage level
> > for pistols and non Assault rifles (ARs chamber too small a round for stun
> > rounds to be effective), and a shotgun just changes to stun damage.
>
> So Stun rounds (for weapons other than ARs and LMGs) get a -2 Power, and use
> impact armour? While ARs and LMGs do not have stun rounds. And Shotguns do
> their normal damage, but stun instead?

Yep.

>
> [BTW, it was the threat of the cyber-carp which made me agree with you :-)]

Eff'n USPS lost the damn' thing in the mail. It's now on back order from
Morgan's World o' Wicker, supplier to the Kobold Armies United!


Chavez:"I want to see his eyes when it happens."
Clark:"So use a good scope on the rifle."
Message no. 8
From: Damion Milliken <adm82@***.EDU.AU>
Subject: Re: ranges
Date: Sat, 11 Mar 1995 19:46:44 +1000
Quicksilver writes:

> Given it a lot of thought. Haven't (yet) playtested them. May start a
> playtest campaign.

I might propose it to my group, see what they think of the idea. If they
agree, we'll give it a try.

> Not quite. The tracer round itself does not count for power, but does
> count for damage level, in multi-round bursts. Makes sense, considering
> that a tracer round is much lighter than a regular bullet. It won't
> penentrate drek-all.

They are really that much lighter? But they will be traveling at the same
kind of speed, and isn't it (I've been informed) the velocity which is the
determining factor? A small difference is mass wouldn't effect it that much
would it?

--
Damion Milliken University of Wollongong E-mail: adm82@***.edu.au

(GEEK CODE 2.1) GE -d+@ H s++:-- !g p0 !au a18 w+ v(?) C++ US++>+++ P+ L !3
E? N K- W M@ !V po@ Y+ t+ 5 !j R+(++) G(+)('''') !tv(--@)
b++ D B? e+ u@ h* f+ !r n----(--)@ !y+
Message no. 9
From: Gurth <gurth@******.NL>
Subject: Re: ranges
Date: Sat, 11 Mar 1995 12:20:14 +0100
>[As a
>side note, what kind of ratings would you assign chainmail and platemail?]

Absolutely _not_ the ratings they gave chain mail in Harlequin's Back. A
chain mail of 6/4 armor is totally unrealistic. More like 2/1. Plate mail
maybe 3/2.


Gurth@******.nl - Gurth@***.nl - http://www.xs4all.nl/~gurth/index.html
The story you have just heard is true.
The names have not been changed to protect the guilty.
Geek Code v2.1: GS/AT/! -d+ H s:- !g p?(3) !au a>? w+(+++) v*(---) C+(++) U
P? !L !3 E? N++ K- W+ -po+(po) Y+ t(+) 5 !j R+(++)>+++$ tv+(++) b+@ D+(++)
B? e+ u+@ h! f--(?) !r(--)(*) n---->!n y?
Message no. 10
From: Damion Milliken <adm82@***.EDU.AU>
Subject: Re: ranges
Date: Sun, 12 Mar 1995 00:16:28 +1000
Gurth writes:

> Absolutely _not_ the ratings they gave chain mail in Harlequin's Back. A
> chain mail of 6/4 armor is totally unrealistic. More like 2/1. Plate mail
> maybe 3/2.

That seems kinda wussy to me. Just how good is platemail at stopping melee
weapon blows anyhow? Do you think it is better at stopping bullets then
melee attacks (as the 3/2 would seem to indicate)?

--
Damion Milliken University of Wollongong E-mail: adm82@***.edu.au

(GEEK CODE 2.1) GE -d+@ H s++:-- !g p0 !au a18 w+ v(?) C++ US++>+++ P+ L !3
E? N K- W M@ !V po@ Y+ t+ 5 !j R+(++) G(+)('''') !tv(--@)
b++ D B? e+ u@ h* f+ !r n----(--)@ !y+
Message no. 11
From: Gurth <gurth@******.NL>
Subject: Re: ranges
Date: Sun, 12 Mar 1995 11:26:48 +0100
>That seems kinda wussy to me. Just how good is platemail at stopping melee
>weapon blows anyhow? Do you think it is better at stopping bullets then
>melee attacks (as the 3/2 would seem to indicate)?

Err, yes. I suppose you're right :) It should have been more like 1/3 for
plate mail, and 2/1 for chain mail. Come to think of it, chain mail would be
hard to give Shadowrun armor ratings -- bullets and arrows can pass through
the rings without much trouble, it won't really stop a club because it is
too flexible, but will prevent a sword from cutting into your flesh...


Gurth@******.nl - Gurth@***.nl - http://www.xs4all.nl/~gurth/index.html
The story you have just heard is true.
The names have not been changed to protect the guilty.
Geek Code v2.1: GS/AT/! -d+ H s:- !g p?(3) !au a>? w+(+++) v*(---) C+(++) U
P? !L !3 E? N++ K- W+ -po+(po) Y+ t(+) 5 !j R+(++)>+++$ tv+(++) b+@ D+(++)
B? e+ u+@ h! f--(?) !r(--)(*) n---->!n y?

Further Reading

If you enjoyed reading about ranges, you may also be interested in:

Disclaimer

These messages were posted a long time ago on a mailing list far, far away. The copyright to their contents probably lies with the original authors of the individual messages, but since they were published in an electronic forum that anyone could subscribe to, and the logs were available to subscribers and most likely non-subscribers as well, it's felt that re-publishing them here is a kind of public service.

Thwap!