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Message no. 1
From: Timothy Brush <tbrush@*******.ROYALROADS.CA>
Subject: Re: Rant
Date: Mon, 3 Oct 1994 08:30:18 PDT
Well I must confess. I've had that GM-vs-player attitude before,
unfortunately. :( Oh well, I still don't think that Mr. Johnson was quite
as bad as one I got double-crossed by.
The run was a pretty exciting one though. Actually the run was easy,
trying to repay the Mr. Johnson was tricky. At the delivery of the goods
,which were in a sealed crate we weren't suppose to open, Mr Johnson have
enough mages to level a city block (well ok about 8 we could so). The
crate contained about a dozen weapon foci and about the same number of
power foci (all of rating 3+, or so I was told).
When we did the run we also stumbled across an unconscious body with
the goods (which of course Mr Johnson wanted without extra compensation).
I believe had we known what the crate contained we would how faded like
the shadows we were (or at least tried). Apparently in addition to his
gang of (initiates) mages, he had 3 snippers, a helo, 3 combat drones and
an addition 4 mages with binoculars, as well as a bunch of troll things (I
think, never really saw them... they weren't needed.)
Well fortunately for us the meeting took place on a pier and our
rigger had spent he nuyen extremely wisely. And I myself had a platinum
docwagon card. Well our rigger had equiped his van with double ejection
seats and carried around 4-7 kilos of C12. Another of our team, who had
been slightly injured in the initial run, happened to be in the van and
had a little knowledge of demolitions (talk about being in the right place
at the right time. :) ! ) Anyways, with the aid of my headphone we
coordinated our (demise) escape. We rigged the explosives, set the van on
auto-countdown to drive right through the group of mages, and delayed my
actions and the shamans (in addition to my pushing my docwagon band, what
is it again less than 10 mins? :) ).
Well the plan confused and shocked the GM! :) We managed to somehow
escape with only one loss (poor dwarf, damn ejection seat malfunctioned)
and managed to knock-off 5 of the 8 mages!!!! :) I was considered dead,
and the shaman burned many karma to suppress the damage to a medium wound
(who said shamans suck? :)
While the GM was still in shock from our inventive escape, we went
right after Mr. Johnson before he could prepare. Needless to say it was a
losing battle (and needless to say we don't play with that GM anymore! )
Message no. 2
From: Nightfox <DJWA@******.UCC.NAU.EDU>
Subject: Re: Rant
Date: Mon, 3 Oct 1994 17:28:58 -0700
>crate contained about a dozen weapon foci and about the same number of
>power foci (all of rating 3+, or so I was told).

>gang of (initiates) mages, he had 3 snippers, a helo, 3 combat drones and
>an addition 4 mages with binoculars, as well as a bunch of troll things (I
>think, never really saw them... they weren't needed.)

you have to love this Intelligence. Pay a group of shadowrunners a little money
to get stuff that is worth LOADS of cash. Its pretty obvious that something
isn't right and it would be better to just take the good and run.

Meanwhile - Johnson Spends 1000x as much to by the people so that he can kill
the runners who got the stuff for him.

This is sort of lacking in intelligence - why didn't he just use everyone else
he highered to get the bloody focuses for him instead of highering them and a
shadowrun team? It definately makes more sense.

Nightfox

Heck - if he wanted to kill you guys that bad - just go through with the meet,
and get the drum of foci. Them hit a release and fall through the floor, it
closes above him and the building explodes.
Message no. 3
From: Timothy Brush <tbrush@*******.ROYALROADS.CA>
Subject: Re: Rant
Date: Tue, 4 Oct 1994 09:57:29 PDT
Well I don't actually think he had to pay the mages. :( Only the
hitman (snippers on the roofs). I believe the GM's explaination was that
he belonged to a group of initiates. And the mages were part of that
circle. :(
Had we known what was in the crate we would have vanished from sight
and lived off a talismonger buddy our shaman had, as he slowly sold the
foci. Unfortunately the GM though it wise to add an equalizer (not really,
all he did was make sure no one opened the crate and that the prisonner
was unhuarmed, but I sure if it came down to it the equalizer was probably
some grade 20+ initiate who would of knocked us all off without blinking.)
So needless to say, even when we tried to run, we weren't going to be
alive as the GM saw it.


THOR!
Message no. 4
From: NightLife <habenir@******.SAN.UC.EDU>
Subject: Re: Rant
Date: Tue, 15 Oct 1996 01:42:06 -0700
<snip>

>I have one of those in my game. He suffers from *sll* of the above.
>Funnily enough his character is an ex doc wagon medoc, presumably that
>means he can heal them after he's shot the crap out of them. Everyone
>allows him to play because he's such a willing bullet barrier.
>No not really, he is trying very hard to make this one a proper
>character, after playing 15 or 16 bullet stoppers.


Umm yeah maybe if he's willing to change but I myself don't have the time
nor the inclination to babysit somebody who's gamed for years.

< snip >

>The only kind of player I won't allow to return after I;ve asked him to
>leave, is one who causes not only trouble for the PCs in the game, but
>also causes trouble for the players, with misinformationm cheating and
>lying. I;ve had one, he was asked to leave. *He* will not be invited
>to return.


Right now I'm is a position. By the way i'm not even close to bragging on
this where friends of friends as well as starngers seek me out to try to get
into my game so I can dump a munchie or fanboy as I call them without a
second thought. So I don't put up with a whole lot because somebody more
than willing to take their place.

<snip>

>I've met the type. Thankfully I don't have the type in my gmae, but I
>know GMs who do, and like you they shake their head in frustration and
>disbelief at the attitude of this strange kind and thankfully rare
>player.
>
They're abour as rare as a burger on the receiving end of a flamethrower. In
my area they tend to congrate in one place and seem to breed like roaches
not to insult a roach.


>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
Nightlife Inc.
<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<

If you have to ask then it's probably classified.
Which means that I have to follow protocol.
But if you ask nicley I might forget that you asked.
Then again maybe not.

>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
Document Classified
<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<
Message no. 5
From: Pete Sims <petesims@********.DEMON.CO.UK>
Subject: Re: Rant
Date: Wed, 16 Oct 1996 13:32:09 +0100
In article <1.5.4.32.19961015084206.00673a58@******.san.uc.edu>,
NightLife <habenir@******.san.uc.edu> writes
[snip]
>>No not really, he is trying very hard to make this one a proper
>>character, after playing 15 or 16 bullet stoppers.
>
>Umm yeah maybe if he's willing to change but I myself don't have the time
>nor the inclination to babysit somebody who's gamed for years.

I'm a little different there, I have a lot of patience for people, maybe
I'm just a terminal optimist, I don't know, but I like to give people as
much chance as possible. If they appear to be making an effort, I'll
quite happily geve 'em a chance. However....

[snip]
>>also causes trouble for the players, with misinformationm cheating and
>>lying. I;ve had one, he was asked to leave. *He* will not be invited
>>to return.
>
>Right now I'm is a position. By the way i'm not even close to bragging on
>this where friends of friends as well as starngers seek me out to try to get
>into my game so I can dump a munchie or fanboy as I call them without a
>second thought. So I don't put up with a whole lot because somebody more
>than willing to take their place.

You are lucky here, where I live gamers are a premium, so we tend to
hang on to the ones we've got. There are replacements available, people
always want to migrate from one game to another, but it takes a while
for a new player to accustom themselves to a different style of GMing.
Living in a limited environment like this tends to make a person much
more tolerant of *misguided* players. The one I have noticed, and I
brought this up in a different thread, is that a lot of munchkins seem
to come from a background of AD&D, where they are used to the "see it
kill it" mentality that AD&D encourages. After all, no death and
destruction, no XP. Shadowrun is far better in it's methods, leaving
plenty of room for awards for a manner of different actions, rather than
kill, kill, kill. Unfortunately, some GMs have also come from the AD&D
history line, and also have a hard time adjusting to the concept of
GMing a game for players rather than the "dungeon bash" style game with
endless combats.

(For those in here who are not like this I apologise, this is not an
attack on all GMs, just some of the more irritating oikes in my area)

>
><snip>
>
>>I've met the type. Thankfully I don't have the type in my gmae, but I
>>know GMs who do, and like you they shake their head in frustration and
>>disbelief at the attitude of this strange kind and thankfully rare
>>player.
>>
>They're abour as rare as a burger on the receiving end of a flamethrower. In
>my area they tend to congrate in one place and seem to breed like roaches
>not to insult a roach.

I can only assume that your area has an unfortunately improportionate
number of "roach" players. Again where I live, players are a limited
commodity, GMs even more so, the repeat offenders who quite obviously
aren't going to alter their style of gameplay to fit in with the
majority of players are usually asked if they would rather go off and
play Warhammer, which is more suited to their style of play and mind
scale. Or, if they have a reputation over a few GM groups, they are
usually refered to the mother and toddler nurseries. :)

Pete
--
Pete Sims
Message no. 6
From: NightLife <habenir@******.SAN.UC.EDU>
Subject: Re: Rant
Date: Tue, 15 Oct 1996 21:42:24 -0700
snip
>I'm a little different there, I have a lot of patience for people, maybe
>I'm just a terminal optimist, I don't know, but I like to give people as
>much chance as possible. If they appear to be making an effort, I'll
>quite happily geve 'em a chance. However....

Oh I didn't say there weren't chances. Personally I go by the baseball
system. Three strikes and your out. No more no less.

double snip

>You are lucky here, where I live gamers are a premium, so we tend to
>hang on to the ones we've got. There are replacements available, people
>always want to migrate from one game to another, but it takes a while
>for a new player to accustom themselves to a different style of GMing.

I know about that right now I'm in the process of trying to teach a guy how
to RP. One night after a game he came up and asked to to show him how. So I
tend to take that as a compliment. As for blaming AD&D I don't know it's
true many munchies play this but they also play things like Rifts( One of my
favorite games ), Champions, Vampire, and a not so well know game called
battlelords. As for becoming accustomed to a new GM. I never sit there and
play pick on the rookie. No insult to you "Rookie" just a term. I had it
done to me. That why I don't play Vampire LA anymore.

>Living in a limited environment like this tends to make a person much
>more tolerant of *misguided* players. The one I have noticed, and I
>brought this up in a different thread, is that a lot of munchkins seem
>to come from a background of AD&D, where they are used to the "see it
>kill it" mentality that AD&D encourages. After all, no death and
>destruction, no XP. Shadowrun is far better in it's methods, leaving
>plenty of room for awards for a manner of different actions, rather than
>kill, kill, kill. Unfortunately, some GMs have also come from the AD&D
>history line, and also have a hard time adjusting to the concept of
>GMing a game for players rather than the "dungeon bash" style game with
>endless combats.

Oncew again it boils down to the GM. You can't expect a newbie to run a
perfect game it took me almost six years to get to this situation, the one
I'm in. When I first started the only attaction was my story ideas and
getting player beyond my circle of friends was difficult. Now that isn't the
case anymore. This however doesn't excuse those who are unwilling to learn
and evolve.

snip

>I can only assume that your area has an unfortunately improportionate
>number of "roach" players. Again where I live, players are a limited
>commodity, GMs even more so, the repeat offenders who quite obviously
>aren't going to alter their style of gameplay to fit in with the
>majority of players are usually asked if they would rather go off and
>play Warhammer, which is more suited to their style of play and mind
>scale. Or, if they have a reputation over a few GM groups, they are
>usually refered to the mother and toddler nurseries. :)
>
>
There now lack of players in the Cincy area it's just the trouble of finding
them and sorting through all the rough for a diamond. That all I do. The
repaet offender just start their own munchie games perpuating the disease.
Poison those who could be good RP'ers


>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
Nightlife Inc.
<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<

If you have to ask then it's probably classified.
Which means that I have to follow protocol.
But if you ask nicley I might forget that you asked.
Then again maybe not.

>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
Document Classified
<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<
Message no. 7
From: Pete Sims <petesims@********.DEMON.CO.UK>
Subject: Re: Rant
Date: Thu, 17 Oct 1996 05:49:59 +0100
In article <1.5.4.32.19961016044224.0068eea0@******.san.uc.edu>,
NightLife <habenir@******.san.uc.edu> writes
[snip]
>>quite happily geve 'em a chance. However....
>
>Oh I didn't say there weren't chances. Personally I go by the baseball
>system. Three strikes and your out. No more no less.

Sorry, you just *seemed* a little harsh, the baseball system works well
for me too. :)

>
>double snip
>
>>You are lucky here, where I live gamers are a premium, so we tend to
>>hang on to the ones we've got. There are replacements available, people
>>always want to migrate from one game to another, but it takes a while
>>for a new player to accustom themselves to a different style of GMing.
>
>I know about that right now I'm in the process of trying to teach a guy how
>to RP. One night after a game he came up and asked to to show him how. So I

I've done that with one of my players, and it seems to have worked, once
he found out what was expected of him he seemed to make a better effort
with his character, instead of continually going after the "treasure".

>tend to take that as a compliment. As for blaming AD&D I don't know it's
>true many munchies play this but they also play things like Rifts( One of my
>favorite games ), Champions, Vampire, and a not so well know game called
>battlelords. As for becoming accustomed to a new GM. I never sit there and
>play pick on the rookie. No insult to you "Rookie" just a term. I had it
>done to me. That why I don't play Vampire LA anymore.

We don't get a lot of game variation here where I live, I think we've
all tried the different systems but have all settled on pretty much one
we like, and rarely vary it. We do have a VAmpire LRP group here on the
Island, but they seem to have fogotten it's supposed to be a
*masquerade* and have gone completely over the top, into what I describe
as idiocy.

[snip]
>>kill, kill, kill. Unfortunately, some GMs have also come from the AD&D
>>history line, and also have a hard time adjusting to the concept of
>>GMing a game for players rather than the "dungeon bash" style game with
>>endless combats.
>
>Oncew again it boils down to the GM. You can't expect a newbie to run a
>perfect game it took me almost six years to get to this situation, the one
>I'm in. When I first started the only attaction was my story ideas and
>getting player beyond my circle of friends was difficult. Now that isn't the
>case anymore. This however doesn't excuse those who are unwilling to learn
>and evolve.

No it doesn't.. Logically, if a person wants to learn a game system a
certain amount of evloution must take place. We are all evolving
continually, it's the very nature of life. It's a great shame to see
players and GM's alike locked into a particular style of play, with
little or no variation on a theme. The one thing that strikes me as
particularly odd with this, is the way they are so vehemently resistant
to change.

[snip]
>>majority of players are usually asked if they would rather go off and
>>play Warhammer, which is more suited to their style of play and mind
>>scale. Or, if they have a reputation over a few GM groups, they are
>>usually refered to the mother and toddler nurseries. :)
>>
>>
>There now lack of players in the Cincy area it's just the trouble of finding
>them and sorting through all the rough for a diamond. That all I do. The
>repaet offender just start their own munchie games perpuating the disease.
>Poison those who could be good RP'ers

Not so easy to do here, I live in an area (rural) that would disappear
inside Cincinatti (sp?) so we are possibly more resitant to beating the
crap out of people who munchkinise, and tend to work very hard to bring
them into the realm of roleplaying, sometimes however, there are
terminal cases :(

Pete

--
Pete Sims
Heroes or Fools? That's a determination others will make in hindsight. But by
being here now, we make that determination for ourselves, and it's neither.
Lt.Col.T.C.McQueen
Message no. 8
From: NightLife <habenir@******.SAN.UC.EDU>
Subject: Re: Rant
Date: Wed, 16 Oct 1996 01:29:54 -0700
>Sorry, you just *seemed* a little harsh, the baseball system works well
>for me too. :)

Sometime I come off that way. Generally though I'm pretty easy to get along
with unless I'm in a "poo-poo" mood. ;-)

snip

>I've done that with one of my players, and it seems to have worked, once
>he found out what was expected of him he seemed to make a better effort
>with his character, instead of continually going after the "treasure".

It's a pain isn't it?

snip
>We don't get a lot of game variation here where I live, I think we've
>all tried the different systems but have all settled on pretty much one
>we like, and rarely vary it. We do have a VAmpire LRP group here on the
>Island, but they seem to have fogotten it's supposed to be a
>*masquerade* and have gone completely over the top, into what I describe
>as idiocy.

Same here.

double snip ;-)


>No it doesn't.. Logically, if a person wants to learn a game system a
>certain amount of evloution must take place. We are all evolving
>continually, it's the very nature of life. It's a great shame to see
>players and GM's alike locked into a particular style of play, with
>little or no variation on a theme. The one thing that strikes me as
>particularly odd with this, is the way they are so vehemently resistant
>to change.

Too true. That why I dug out ( and I'm not kidding. ) my sledgehammer out of
the garage. Whack it once on the ground or the offending PC ( just kidding )
for that matter it tends to get attention. ;-)


>Not so easy to do here, I live in an area (rural) that would disappear
>inside Cincinatti (sp?) so we are possibly more resitant to beating the
>crap out of people who munchkinise, and tend to work very hard to bring
>them into the realm of roleplaying, sometimes however, there are
>terminal cases :(

See there are grounds for Dr. Korvorkians work ;-) If you haven't guessed my
humor tends to run towards the dark and sarastic.


>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
Nightlife Inc.
<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<

If you have to ask then it's probably classified.
Which means that I have to follow protocol.
But if you ask nicley I might forget that you asked.
Then again maybe not.

>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
Document Classified
<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<
Message no. 9
From: Rookie <rookie@*******.COM>
Subject: Re: Rant
Date: Thu, 17 Oct 1996 10:14:56 -0600
----------
> From: NightLife <habenir@******.SAN.UC.EDU>
> To: SHADOWRN@********.ITRIBE.NET
> Subject: Re: Rant
> Date: Tuesday, October 15, 1996 10:42 PM
>
>I never sit there and play pick on the rookie. No insult to you "Rookie"
just a term. I >had it done to me. That why I don't play Vampire LA
anymore.
>

None taken but I used to get picked on. Still do sometimes. Asher and the
Whinner named Paul are the one's getting picked on.


-Rookie

And when it comes the living will envy the Dead!

Rookie@*******.com
55464@**.ev.maricopa.edu
http://www.netzone.com/~rookie
Message no. 10
From: NightLife <habenir@******.SAN.UC.EDU>
Subject: Re: Rant
Date: Wed, 16 Oct 1996 15:40:49 -0700
>None taken but I used to get picked on. Still do sometimes. Asher and the
>Whinner named Paul are the one's getting picked on.
>
>
>-Rookie
>
Ok, but were you killed your first time playing game.


>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
Nightlife Inc.
<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<

If you have to ask then it's probably classified.
Which means that I have to follow protocol.
But if you ask nicley I might forget that you asked.
Then again maybe not.

>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
Document Classified
<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<
Message no. 11
From: Rookie <rookie@*******.COM>
Subject: Re: Rant
Date: Thu, 17 Oct 1996 13:06:42 -0600
> Ok, but were you killed your first time playing game.
>

Actually I was killed with in the first 2 hours! :)


-Rookie

And when it comes the living will envy the Dead!

Rookie@*******.com
55464@**.ev.maricopa.edu
http://www.netzone.com/~rookie
Message no. 12
From: NightLife <habenir@******.SAN.UC.EDU>
Subject: Re: Rant
Date: Wed, 16 Oct 1996 16:37:49 -0700
>Yes it does considering I did under the hands of a HitMan. That was
>contracted to kill ONE of the mombers of are group.
>
>-Rookie
>
Actually I was killed by a friends group . This guy who had pestering me to
play for weeks allowed it to happen. Needless to say I stormed out of there
I was pissed. Killing newbies seems to be the general theme in Vampire games
anyway so that basically why I won't touch that game ever again.


>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
Nightlife Inc.
<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<

If you have to ask then it's probably classified.
Which means that I have to follow protocol.
But if you ask nicley I might forget that you asked.
Then again maybe not.

>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
Document Classified
<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<
Message no. 13
From: Pete Sims <petesims@********.DEMON.CO.UK>
Subject: Re: Rant
Date: Fri, 18 Oct 1996 01:39:18 +0100
In article <1.5.4.32.19961016082954.0068bef4@******.san.uc.edu>,
NightLife <habenir@******.san.uc.edu> writes
>>Sorry, you just *seemed* a little harsh, the baseball system works well
>>for me too. :)
>
>Sometime I come off that way. Generally though I'm pretty easy to get along
>with unless I'm in a "poo-poo" mood. ;-)

Oh, right, Not something that occurs regularly then :)

[snip]
>>with his character, instead of continually going after the "treasure".
>
>It's a pain isn't it?
Yes and no, at the time it was a real pain, becuase we just couldn't get
him to understand that this wasn't the idea. For example. A genetic
laboratory that the team had broken into was experimenting on
crossbreeding of species, and had just successfully cross bred a
rotweiller, cougar and thrown in a little shark dna for that extra added
attitude. Later, prior to the PCs arrival, an accident had occcured at
the centre, and the staff were in quarantine, the place had virtually
shut down around them (the reason for the PCs presence, to get a decker
in and crack the security to get the scientists out.... Meanwhile a
minor frag up with the electrics had released said beasty onto the first
underground floor.

The PCs walk in, down the elevator to the first security level. The
first thing they see are torn and shredded bodies, the next thing they
see are torn and shredded bodies, the third thing they see are torn and
shredded bodies - do you see a pattern here, this one player didn't.
Everyone else is locked and loaded and ready to rock, him, he's
searching the bodies. As an added temptation, to test him out, I left a
nice shiny credstick on the counter top in the staff canteen. In full
view, in fact under a spotlight :) (convenient huh?) Said nitwit
ignores the trail of gore and the blood splattered over the counter. He
ignored the fragging great big beasty sitting munching on Mr. Security
guard, and went straight for the credstick. Hmmm. thinks beastie, fresh
meat, nicer lunch... :) Attacks said nitwit. Nitwit pulls Manhunter
caps of one round and dies....

Oh, he says, I thought the manhunter did more damage than that, I did
say I was going to shoot it between the eyes. In time scale he had
three seconds to react, I think I was generous letting him get the gun
out of his secure boot holster which was hidden under his denims. Rest
of team open fire after realising what nitwit was doing, unfortunately
too late. (ahhhhh)

Next nitwit comment - but I thought the whole idea of this game was to
collect as much money as possible, and to kill things. <disbelief -
hysterical laughter - no mate, close, but no cigar>

This happened a number of other times, except each one was subsequently
more ludicrous. One which I will never forget, was when he held one of
the major NPCs out of a window seven stories up by his throat and
informed the unfortunate chap that unless he talked quickly, now, he was
going to let go ( the rest of the team weren't present, he'd gone off on
his own). Now I don't suggest anyone tries this, but the thought of
some with their hand around my throat, and my *entire* body weight
swining from that grip, would, I feel make speech a teeny bit difficult.
Needless to say that nitwit let go. Seven storeys later, there's a
splat, and half their information goes to the city morgue. :(

[snip]
>>little or no variation on a theme. The one thing that strikes me as
>>particularly odd with this, is the way they are so vehemently resistant
>>to change.
>
>Too true. That why I dug out ( and I'm not kidding. ) my sledgehammer out of
>the garage. Whack it once on the ground or the offending PC ( just kidding )
>for that matter it tends to get attention. ;-)

Ah, one of the aforementioned vehement defenders :) L(

[snip]
>>them into the realm of roleplaying, sometimes however, there are
>>terminal cases :(
>
>See there are grounds for Dr. Korvorkians work ;-) If you haven't guessed my
>humor tends to run towards the dark and sarastic.

No Nightlife - I hadn't noticed :)

Pete
--
Pete Sims
It is a mistake to allow any mechanical object to realize that you are in a
hurry.
Message no. 14
From: NightLife <habenir@******.SAN.UC.EDU>
Subject: Re: Rant
Date: Wed, 16 Oct 1996 23:47:10 -0700
>Oh, right, Not something that occurs regularly then :)


Not unless something has gone out of it's way that make my life that much
more difficult. it runs about 70/30 good/bad mood.


snip
re nitwit comments
I like it.


>Ah, one of the aforementioned vehement defenders :) L(

What :) followed by a L( mean ?

>No Nightlife - I hadn't noticed :)

You're to kind.


>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
Nightlife Inc.
<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<

If you have to ask then it's probably classified.
Which means that I have to follow protocol.
But if you ask nicley I might forget that you asked.
Then again maybe not.

>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
Document Classified
<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<
Message no. 15
From: Gurth <gurth@******.NL>
Subject: Re: Rant
Date: Fri, 18 Oct 1996 13:03:11 +0100
NightLife said on 16:37/16 Oct 96...

> Actually I was killed by a friends group . This guy who had pestering me to
> play for weeks allowed it to happen. Needless to say I stormed out of there
> I was pissed. Killing newbies seems to be the general theme in Vampire games
> anyway so that basically why I won't touch that game ever again.

Doesn't really make sense to me... Look for another group to play it with,
if the one you were with before has this habit of killing new characters.
Not liking a game because of the way one group plays it, I find a bit
strange.

--
Gurth@******.nl - http://www.xs4all.nl/~gurth/index.html
My words are minimal.
-> NERPS Project Leader & Unofficial Shadowrun Guru <-
-> The Plastic Warriors Page: http://www.xs4all.nl/~gurth/plastic.html <-

-----BEGIN GEEK CODE BLOCK-----
Version 3.1:
GAT/! d-(dpu) s:- !a>? C+(++)@ U P L E? W(++) N o? K- w+ O V? PS+ PE
Y PGP- t(+) 5+ X++ R+++>$ tv+(++) b++@ DI? D+ G(++) e h! !r(---) y?
------END GEEK CODE BLOCK------
Message no. 16
From: NightLife <habenir@******.SAN.UC.EDU>
Subject: Re: Rant
Date: Thu, 17 Oct 1996 13:23:14 -0700
>Doesn't really make sense to me... Look for another group to play it with,
>if the one you were with before has this habit of killing new characters.
>Not liking a game because of the way one group plays it, I find a bit
>strange.
>
I did me and Pete were going on about bad gaming experences. As for not
playing that game again. Oh well that's your opinion. Vamp just seems to
attact sociopaths IMO.


>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
Nightlife Inc.
<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<

If you have to ask then it's probably classified.
Which means that I have to follow protocol.
But if you ask nicely I might forget that you asked.
Then again maybe not.

>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
Document Classified
<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<
Message no. 17
From: Steven Ratkovich <chaos@*****.COM>
Subject: Re: Rant
Date: Fri, 18 Oct 1996 16:01:45 -0500
>>Doesn't really make sense to me... Look for another group to play it with,
>>if the one you were with before has this habit of killing new characters.
>>Not liking a game because of the way one group plays it, I find a bit
>>strange.
>>
>I did me and Pete were going on about bad gaming experences. As for not
>playing that game again. Oh well that's your opinion. Vamp just seems to
>attact sociopaths IMO.
>
Almost 100% of the people that I know who are Vampire and/or White Wolf in
general fans are both PIBs and Munchkins.

For those of you who don't know what a PIB is, it's a Person (or People) In
Black. one of those antisocial idiots who do nothing but listen to
depressing alternative music, bitch about everything in general, wear black
all teh time, and have the intelligence of a cantalope.

Vampire lends tself way to well to Munchkinism as well, because, hey! You
are all Vampires! BTW, has anyone ever thought that the premise of the game
was just a bit silly?? After all, a half dozen powerful vampires hanging
around each otehr playing plitics??? Seems just a little dumb to me...

Oh, well... just my two sense, and one more reason to play SR over Vamp...:)

-Bull-the-Vampire-Player-hunting-decker-turned-GM

(BTW, just my own opinion of the game, you are allowed to disagree with me...:))
Message no. 18
From: David Buehrer <dbuehrer@****.ORG>
Subject: Re: Rant
Date: Fri, 18 Oct 1996 15:04:50 -0600
Steven Ratkovich wrote:
|
|Almost 100% of the people that I know who are Vampire and/or White Wolf in
|general fans are both PIBs and Munchkins.

|Vampire lends tself way to well to Munchkinism as well, because, hey! You
|are all Vampires! BTW, has anyone ever thought that the premise of the game
|was just a bit silly?? After all, a half dozen powerful vampires hanging
|around each otehr playing plitics??? Seems just a little dumb to me...

|(BTW, just my own opinion of the game, you are allowed to disagree
|with me...:))

Just a quick comment, and then I'll drop the thread.
You're right that Vampire is almost 100% PIBs (most of whom
are munchkins). But, I've played it in my group (*not*
PIBs or munchkins (at least not in a bad way :)) and had a
lot of fun. You do need a GM that really has a nack for
politics though (which we did).

On the other hand, White Wolf's Magic system sucks the sweat
off of a dead man's balls.

-David

/^\/^\/^\/^\/^\/^\/^\ dbuehrer@****.org /^\/^\/^\/^\/^\/^\/^\
"His thoughts tumbled in his head, making and breaking
alliances like underpants in a dryer without Cling Free."
~~~http://www.geocities.com/TimesSquare/1068/homepage.htm~~~~
Message no. 19
From: Rick Jones <rick@******.COM>
Subject: Re: Rant
Date: Fri, 18 Oct 1996 16:17:55 -0500
David Buehrer wrote:
> You're right that Vampire is almost 100% PIBs (most of whom
> are munchkins). But, I've played it in my group (*not*

Maybe where you are, but I play Vampire (and none of my group are PIBs),
and run it at cons. Of all the players we had, only around 10% of them
were PIBs. I dunno about munchkins, since we made the characters, but
they seemed to be pretty good roleplayers. (Though there was one kid who
was a really awful munchkin, but he was the exception.)

Now, that being said, I'd guess over 50% of the Vampire LARPers at the con
*were* PIB-ed out. Dunno about Powergamers, since I don't LARP. (I do
know the LARP organizer ripped off her plot from a novel, including the
identity of the murderer.) On the other hand, the Male/Female ratio at the
LARP was around 60/40, as opposed to 80/20 for the rest of the con events,
so I guess there's something to be said for it.

OB-Shadowrun: I haven't used Vampires yet in my game, though I have toyed
with the idea of a 4th World Vampire who slept in a crypt throughout the
5th world and wakes up. The problem is that he'd be so powerful that the
PC's would have to be *real* tough to survive.

--
Rick Jones Cannot say. Saying I would know. Do not know,
rick@******.com so can not say. Very damaged. Zathras can
Meyrick@***.com never have anything nice.
http://www-ece.rice.edu/~rickj/ --Zathras, Babylon 5, War Without End
Message no. 20
From: Steven Ratkovich <chaos@*****.COM>
Subject: Re: Rant
Date: Fri, 18 Oct 1996 17:58:55 -0500
>Just a quick comment, and then I'll drop the thread.
>You're right that Vampire is almost 100% PIBs (most of whom
>are munchkins). But, I've played it in my group (*not*
>PIBs or munchkins (at least not in a bad way :)) and had a
>lot of fun. You do need a GM that really has a nack for
>politics though (which we did).
>
>On the other hand, White Wolf's Magic system sucks the sweat
>off of a dead man's balls.
>
>-David
>

I agree, the game could be very cool if run right. We've been kicking
around ideas for a game of it, but we'd pretty much throw out all WW's
background stuff. I also like the werewolf and Changeling games from them,
but think that the core idea behind the games sucks.

If anyone's read any of Mercedes Lackey's modern stuff (Serrated Edge, Diana
Tregarde Mysteries, etc), that's a great setting for the WW games.. But ya
just gotta ignore the foolishness that WW threw in...

(Sorry, I know this is degenerating, ah actually it's already far past that
stage, from anything shadowrun related, Sorry. But the Mercedes Lackey
books that I mentioned are excellent reading and could provide some
interesting ideas for shadowrun as well. Tehre, how's that?)

Steve
Message no. 21
From: Marty <s457033@*******.GU.EDU.AU>
Subject: Re: Rant
Date: Sat, 19 Oct 1996 12:05:42 +1000
> For those of you who don't know what a PIB is, it's a Person (or People) In
> Black. one of those antisocial idiots who do nothing but listen to
> depressing alternative music, bitch about everything in general, wear black
> all teh time, and have the intelligence of a cantalope.
>
Hey, I could take offence to that. My two favourite bands are Depeche
Mode and NIN...
Though, I have to admit..I HATE goths with a passion. If they want to be
dead so much, I'd be happy to help.

Anyone that wants to be a vampire needs serious help in my opinion.

I won't make any statements about my intelligence; I could get shot down.

> (BTW, just my own opinion of the game, you are allowed to disagree with me...:))
>
Couldn't agree more. You bring the wooden stake and I'll bring the gun;
Let's go hunting goths.

Bleach
Message no. 22
From: NightLife <habenir@******.SAN.UC.EDU>
Subject: Re: Rant
Date: Fri, 18 Oct 1996 02:21:15 -0700
>Hey, I could take offence to that. My two favourite bands are Depeche
>Mode and NIN...
>Though, I have to admit..I HATE goths with a passion. If they want to be
>dead so much, I'd be happy to help.
>
>Anyone that wants to be a vampire needs serious help in my opinion.
>
>I won't make any statements about my intelligence; I could get shot down.
>
>> (BTW, just my own opinion of the game, you are allowed to disagree with
me...:))
>>
>Couldn't agree more. You bring the wooden stake and I'll bring the gun;
>Let's go hunting goths.
>
>Bleach
>

I've got a couple of broadswords, a bow, in addition to a bandelor of stakes
from a previous halloween costume. May join your little party?


>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
Nightlife Inc.
<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<

If you have to ask then it's probably classified.
Which means that I have to follow protocol.
But if you ask nicely I might forget that you asked.
Then again maybe not.

>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
Document Classified
<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<
Message no. 23
From: The Jestyr <s421539@*******.GU.EDU.AU>
Subject: Re: Rant
Date: Mon, 21 Oct 1996 09:03:22 +1000
> For those of you who don't know what a PIB is, it's a Person (or People) In
> Black. one of those antisocial idiots who do nothing but listen to
> depressing alternative music, bitch about everything in general, wear black
> all teh time, and have the intelligence of a cantalope.

Ahhhh... you mean GOTHS. Professionally suicidal people. With funny hair
colours. And bizarre sexual tastes. Who like listening to Nine Inch Nails
at 1/3 normal speed.

Apart from that, I know a lot of nice goths. :)


Lady Jestyr

------------------------------------------------------
A titanic intellect... in a world full of icebergs
------------------------------------------------------
Elle Holmes s421539@*****.student.gu.edu.au
http://www.geocities.com/TimesSquare/1503
------------------------------------------------------
Message no. 24
From: NightLife <habenir@******.SAN.UC.EDU>
Subject: Re: Rant
Date: Sat, 19 Oct 1996 19:17:46 -0700
>Apart from that, I know a lot of nice goths. :)
>
>
You have my pity.


>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
Nightlife Inc.
<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<

If you have to ask then it's probably classified.
Which means that I have to follow protocol.
But if you ask nicely I might forget that you asked.
Then again maybe not.

>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
Document Classified
<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<
Message no. 25
From: Sascha Pabst <Sascha.Pabst@**********.UNI-OLDENBURG.DE>
Subject: Re: Rant
Date: Mon, 21 Oct 1996 23:47:03 +0000
> > For those of you who don't know what a PIB is, it's a Person (or People) In
> > Black. one of those antisocial idiots who do nothing but listen to
> > depressing alternative music, bitch about everything in general, wear black
> > all teh time, and have the intelligence of a cantalope.
Don't know who said it, and that's good. What do you think Mr
Flowers-on-my-shirt? Not everyone wearing black is a goth, and even not every
goth ("Grufti" :-) is stupid. Like all generalizations, this one is _at_least_
dangerous! Watch it!

Sascha
--
+---___---------+----------------------------------------+--------------------+
| / / _______ | Jhary-a-Conel aka Sascha Pabst |The one who does not|
| / /_/ ____/ |Sascha.Pabst@**********.Uni-Oldenburg.de| learn from history |
| \___ __/ | | is bound to live |
|==== \_/ ======| *Wearing hats is just a way of life* | through it again. |
|LOGOUT FASCISM!| - Me | G. Santayana |
+------------- http://www.informatik.uni-oldenburg.de/~jhary -----------------+
Message no. 26
From: Loki <loki@*******.COM>
Subject: Re: Rant
Date: Mon, 21 Oct 1996 22:33:15 -0700
> > > For those of you who don't know what a PIB is, it's a Person (or
People) In
> > > Black. one of those antisocial idiots who do nothing but listen to
> > > depressing alternative music, bitch about everything in general, wear
black
> > > all teh time, and have the intelligence of a cantalope.
> Don't know who said it, and that's good. What do you think Mr
> Flowers-on-my-shirt? Not everyone wearing black is a goth, and even not
every
> goth ("Grufti" :-) is stupid. Like all generalizations, this one is
_at_least_
> dangerous! Watch it!

Agreed. I've got a number of friends in the Goth circle, and sometimes
myself walk the borderline Goth fringes. This thread should probably start
to wrap up before things get personal and it degrades rapidly.

@>-,--'--- Loki

CLARKE'S THIRD LAW:
Any sufficiently advanced technology is indistinguishable from magic.

*********************************************
Poisoned Elves
http://www.netzone.com/~loki/
*********************************************

Further Reading

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