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Message no. 1
From: Dvixen Vidi Vici <dvixen@****.SPYDERNET.COM>
Subject: Rant and request for advice. (Was Women In Shadowrun)
Date: Thu, 10 Oct 1996 22:22:00 -0700
On Wed, 9 Oct 1996, Steven Ratkovich wrote:

> Dvixen and Pete Sims babbled...:)

I'm babbling again, now am I? Nothing new.
I'd like some feedback on the following. Roleplaying inter player is
not a problem, but GM to player, it would appear, is.

> >>I'd love for the environmeant to play my character's flaws to the hilt.
> >
> >The environment is primarily a GM thing isn't it, or are we talking
> >about the facility to be able to play in general. ?
> >
> Probably she means she'd like an atmosphere where her role-playing would be
> really accepted and appreciated. I can sympathize, having been in groups
> where it's all action and the minute anyone tries to do something that
> involves thinking, everyone else automatically ignores him... Too much
> noise and too much distraction and <sigh> too much munchkin...

In our game, I role-play with the other players, and roll-play with the
GM. Inter-character strife is common in our game, and it is where I find
more interest. GM=boring envirnment. He never details anything, unless
he can figure out how to make it humorous. His NPC's are usually for him
(IMO) to talk, and drown us out. We only ever listen to his NPC's
anyways. Any interaction I have attempted with said NPC's gets crunched
down to 'what info are you looking for?' 'Okay, this is what you
learn.'

Someone once suggested to me, that introducing at least one NPC (minor or
major, or one shot) every session. What thinks everyone on this?

I can count the NPC's quite easily, and there have been no new ones for at
least two months game time, or seven months real time. Unless you count
the Greater Free Spirit (Of Sea) that has been hanging about my character
since she woke in the hopsital. (spelling intentional).



When I am running a game, I use what the characters provide to create a
story. Andrew, Alex, Eric and myself have given a great deal of detail
to our characters, and I beleive that no detail is being given to this.
(IMO) If I was the GM, I'd be giving much more detail to the points we
have stated. And yes, I have discussed this with Sean, and he said he
would give it a try, this lasted once small three session arc.

I'm starting to feel out characters are little wooden pieces on the GM's
game board...


A bit of history for ya...

Celt (my character, shaman) is naieve in the ways of the world, but not
magic. She was raised to think that magic-types only (how to put it
succinctly) ... (forget succinct. Blunt will do.) fall in love with
magic-types.

Caber (Andrew's character, mundane) is very distrustful of magic, (due to
the first storyline our GM put us through) but trusts Celt. He's beyond
caring, and trust... <G>

I have it on good authority (from Andrew) that Caber is in love. Ditto
for Celt, but she has spent the last year (game time) denying this. Made
for some interesting arcs, that Andrew and I detailed, and the GM
ignored. She's finally shaking off her 'education', but the GM is not
allowing (a blunt way of thinking of it) us to detail it further.

I have mentioned to the GM (several times, until I finally gave up about
a month ago) what I would like to see in terms of openings for character
development. After sessions we used to discuss what happened in the game,
what my character was thinking, uzw. I was the initiator, because when I
run a story, most of the detailing of scenes is done informally.

I have an excellent grip on how Celt would react in nearly any
situation. (Including freezing during combat when Caber got shot up
badly, not a smart thing, but consistant for her) I have a fairly good
grip on the other personalities of the other PC's, but as for the
NPC's... same person, different name.

What's worse, I seem to be the only person in the game to feel this way.
Now, am I being neurotic? (likely) Or is it another difference of gaming
styles between male and females? Dunno.


Off topic stuff...

> [SNIP buzz about clubbing]

I don't mind the club scene, but only once every two months or so, with
friends who are also non-drinkers. We go to dance and have fun. Not to
get pissed and do the pick up thing.

> >I know what what you mean, I'm counting up to 25 years gaming now. :(

Wow... About as long as I've been alive...

> [Snip about Girls working in game stores]

> >I don't know about others on this list (I can't see images on e-mail -
> >yet). But, RPG people, seem to have a more enthusiastic approach to
> >communication, and life in general, and with this enthusiasm comes a

I wish. Communication is my biggest failing. Despite being told I am
highly intellegent, I can't carry a conversation on for more than five
mintues, with the average person. It is rare I meet someone I can discuss
things with. And I must say, there are many people on this list that I
enjoy reading posts from. and it's blamed on them, that I feel I can
delurk. :)

(snipped rest of maturity and people watching)

> "normal"? What's that?

Beats me. I think it is some tiny cute cat.

> -Bull-the-looking-at-all-the-wrinkles-decker-turned-GM

Dvixen, who is not re-reading this post and is going to hit send before
she decides to delete the whole thing.


--
AJ Schaafsma Dvixen@****.spydernet.com
This post in no way reflect the opinions of the myriad voices in my head.
Why is the cat sneezing?
Message no. 2
From: Steven Ratkovich <chaos@*****.COM>
Subject: Re: Rant and request for advice. (Was Women In Shadowrun)
Date: Fri, 11 Oct 1996 15:13:29 -0500
>On Wed, 9 Oct 1996, Steven Ratkovich wrote:
>
>> Dvixen and Pete Sims babbled...:)
>
>I'm babbling again, now am I? Nothing new.
>
<laughs> No offense intended...:):) I babble myself quite often...:)

>I'd like some feedback on the following. Roleplaying inter player is
>not a problem, but GM to player, it would appear, is.
>
Hmmm, ok, let's read on...

>In our game, I role-play with the other players, and roll-play with the
>GM. Inter-character strife is common in our game, and it is where I find
>more interest. GM=boring envirnment. He never details anything, unless
>he can figure out how to make it humorous. His NPC's are usually for him
>(IMO) to talk, and drown us out. We only ever listen to his NPC's
>anyways. Any interaction I have attempted with said NPC's gets crunched
>down to 'what info are you looking for?' 'Okay, this is what you
>learn.'
>
That can most definately be a problem and could get real old real fast...

>Someone once suggested to me, that introducing at least one NPC (minor or
>major, or one shot) every session. What thinks everyone on this?
>
>I can count the NPC's quite easily, and there have been no new ones for at
>least two months game time, or seven months real time. Unless you count
>the Greater Free Spirit (Of Sea) that has been hanging about my character
>since she woke in the hopsital. (spelling intentional).
>
Hmmm, we meet several NPC's in just about every game... Granted, only about
one in five becomes a part of the on going campaign, but I think we
currently have close to thirty or fourty contacts and Major NPC's to fall
back on, and just recently we have made contact with some of the big boys of
SR... (i.e., Lofwyr (eek!), Harly, Ainya, D. Knight, Stryper). Of course,
ur GM loves character interaction with his PC's and I think this has mede
tha game much more enjoyable...

>When I am running a game, I use what the characters provide to create a
>story. Andrew, Alex, Eric and myself have given a great deal of detail
>to our characters, and I beleive that no detail is being given to this.
>(IMO) If I was the GM, I'd be giving much more detail to the points we
>have stated. And yes, I have discussed this with Sean, and he said he
>would give it a try, this lasted once small three session arc.
>
Agreed... Characters can provide a great deal of satisfaction and story
ideas if they are done well... I encourage my new group to give me as much
detail as possible...

>I'm starting to feel out characters are little wooden pieces on the GM's
>game board...
>
<nods and knows that feeling>

>A bit of history for ya...
>
>Celt (my character, shaman) is naieve in the ways of the world, but not
>magic. She was raised to think that magic-types only (how to put it
>succinctly) ... (forget succinct. Blunt will do.) fall in love with
>magic-types.
>
>Caber (Andrew's character, mundane) is very distrustful of magic, (due to
>the first storyline our GM put us through) but trusts Celt. He's beyond
>caring, and trust... <G>
>
>I have it on good authority (from Andrew) that Caber is in love. Ditto
>for Celt, but she has spent the last year (game time) denying this. Made
>for some interesting arcs, that Andrew and I detailed, and the GM
>ignored. She's finally shaking off her 'education', but the GM is not
>allowing (a blunt way of thinking of it) us to detail it further.
>
Interesting... This is one of the few storylines we've never had come up in
a game, mostly due to lack of female players and characters... Although it
has happened more than onece between PC and NPC...

>I have mentioned to the GM (several times, until I finally gave up about
>a month ago) what I would like to see in terms of openings for character
>development. After sessions we used to discuss what happened in the game,
>what my character was thinking, uzw. I was the initiator, because when I
>run a story, most of the detailing of scenes is done informally.
>
>I have an excellent grip on how Celt would react in nearly any
>situation. (Including freezing during combat when Caber got shot up
>badly, not a smart thing, but consistant for her) I have a fairly good
>grip on the other personalities of the other PC's, but as for the
>NPC's... same person, different name.
>
Hmm, Carbon Copy NPC's... Seen those before...:) And it's good that you
know the players so well... As I said we are lucky, and our NPC's, at least
the major ones, have a life all there own... We definately know what a few
of them are thinking, and wish we knew about the others...:)

>What's worse, I seem to be the only person in the game to feel this way.
>Now, am I being neurotic? (likely) Or is it another difference of gaming
>styles between male and females? Dunno.
>
This has nothing to do with male and female... I get frustrated as well
when the game gets stale like that, and I am most definately male...:) It
has to do with the role-playing envronment. You've talked to the GM
repeatedly, maybe it's time to have a talk with the rest of the group,
without him at first... See exactly how they feel... Maybe they would like
the same things... If so, it may be time to find a new GM... This isn't
the best answer or the easiest answer, but it may be the only answer...:(

Well, hope that helped and wasn't more of my own personal brand of
Babbeling...:)

-Bull-the-babbling-decker-turned-GM



****************************************************************************
*******
-Bull, aka Chaos, aka Rak, aka Steven Ratkovich
chaos@*****.com
Order is Illusion! Chaos is Bliss! Got any fours?
****************************************************************************
*******
"I've got a bad feeling about this..."
-Just about everyone, in "Star Wars"
Message no. 3
From: Sascha Pabst <Sascha.Pabst@**********.UNI-OLDENBURG.DE>
Subject: Re: Rant and request for advice. (Was Women In Shadowrun)
Date: Sun, 13 Oct 1996 16:25:38 +0000
On 10 Oct 96 at 22:22, Dvixen Vidi Vici wrote:
[snip]
> > "normal"? What's that?
>
> Beats me. I think it is some tiny cute cat.
Hm... I think that was Nermal. Don't ask me about the "Normal" thing, though.

Sascha
--
+---___---------+------------------------------------+------------------------+
| / / _______ | Jhary-a-Conel aka Sascha Pabst |Things that try to look |
| / /_/ ____/ |Sascha.Pabst@ | like things often do |
| \___ __/ | Informatik.Uni-Oldenburg.de | look more like things |
|==== \_/ ======|*Wearing hats is just a way of life*| than things. Well known|
|LOGOUT FASCISM!| - Me | fact. - E.Weatherwax |
+------------- http://www.informatik.uni-oldenburg.de/~jhary -----------------+
Message no. 4
From: Gurth <gurth@******.NL>
Subject: Re: Rant and request for advice. (Was Women In Shadowrun)
Date: Sat, 12 Oct 1996 12:01:02 +0100
Dvixen Vidi Vici said on 22:22/10 Oct 96...

> In our game, I role-play with the other players, and roll-play with the
> GM. Inter-character strife is common in our game, and it is where I find
> more interest. GM=boring envirnment. He never details anything, unless
> he can figure out how to make it humorous. His NPC's are usually for him
> (IMO) to talk, and drown us out. We only ever listen to his NPC's
> anyways. Any interaction I have attempted with said NPC's gets crunched
> down to 'what info are you looking for?' 'Okay, this is what you
> learn.'

Not too great... IMHO it's okay if players talk to too many contacts about
unimportant things -- like asking the squatter about Maria Mercurial's
security cameras -- to go "You ask about the cameras and in return you get
a blank stare. Next contact?" because it gets very dull (and not just for
the GM, I imagine) to have to go through half an hour of roleplaying that
is going to end in the contact not knowing anything.
If done for absolutely every NPC maybe the GM should consider running a
**&* campaign :)

> Someone once suggested to me, that introducing at least one NPC (minor or
> major, or one shot) every session. What thinks everyone on this?

Introducing an NPC if you are GMing, or if you're playing? As a GM I
wouldn't object to a player coming up with an NPC who somehow knows the
PC, it only makes it easier for me because I don't have to think up a
whole database of friends and relatives. One per session seems a bit much
for this, though.

From the GM point of view, I'd like to know how you avoid bringing in new
NPCs every session :)

> I can count the NPC's quite easily, and there have been no new ones for at
> least two months game time, or seven months real time. Unless you count
> the Greater Free Spirit (Of Sea) that has been hanging about my character
> since she woke in the hopsital. (spelling intentional).

In-game joke?

> > "normal"? What's that?
>
> Beats me. I think it is some tiny cute cat.

It's what all the weirdoes claim to be :)

--
Gurth@******.nl - http://www.xs4all.nl/~gurth/index.html
Silence likes empty.
-> NERPS Project Leader & Unofficial Shadowrun Guru <-
-> The Plastic Warriors Page: http://www.xs4all.nl/~gurth/plastic.html <-

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Message no. 5
From: Pete Sims <petesims@********.DEMON.CO.UK>
Subject: Re: Rant and request for advice. (Was Women In Shadowrun)
Date: Sat, 12 Oct 1996 01:41:25 +0100
In article <Pine.LNX.3.91.961010214455.3122A-100000@****.spydernet.com>,
Dvixen Vidi Vici <dvixen@****.spydernet.com> writes
>On Wed, 9 Oct 1996, Steven Ratkovich wrote:
>
>> Dvixen and Pete Sims babbled...:)
>
>I'm babbling again, now am I? Nothing new.
>I'd like some feedback on the following. Roleplaying inter player is
>not a problem, but GM to player, it would appear, is.

I actually disagree with this, Player to player RP is fine in my game,
and the Player to GM, is even worse. I can't rely on the rule books for
stats and attitudes, I pick a personality for the NPC and play it. This
invariably exacts an IC reply from my players rather than the
*apparently* usual, My player does/says this, and then will do/say that.
I actually get into long and involved sections in the game where the
players are talking/interrogating/arguing with an NPC. (That's what
comes from being a suppressed player I suppose - NPCs are my only chance
to play, and have been for nearly 20 years. <sad dejected expression> )

Things could be different in other games, but I would (hesitate)to
suggest that this is (maybe) downb to the GM?? I know some of the GM's
in here are manic roleplayers with their NPCs, in much the same way as
me, but I wonder how many???

[snip]
>In our game, I role-play with the other players, and roll-play with the
>GM. Inter-character strife is common in our game, and it is where I find
>more interest. GM=boring envirnment. He never details anything, unless
>he can figure out how to make it humorous. His NPC's are usually for him
>(IMO) to talk, and drown us out. We only ever listen to his NPC's
>anyways. Any interaction I have attempted with said NPC's gets crunched
>down to 'what info are you looking for?' 'Okay, this is what you
>learn.'

Oh, that's so sad. Really. When I think of how many GM's go for it in
a big way with their NPCs. I find this tragic. I got into the habit of
breathing life into NPCs a few years ago, when one of my female players
wanted to pick up a particularly good looking NPC, it made for one of
the most entertaining games we'd had in quite a while. So I made it a
rule for myself to look at the NPC, then stuff a personality onto his
phiz and "play" him. My players are always intrigued as to what the
next one is going to be like. I also in some cases use film stars to
base character personalities on.

One, a Lone Star Captain who crosses the players quite often is a cross
between Chuck Norris and Clint Eastwood, another, a fixer is based on
Serge from Beverly Hills Cop. I have a female Johnson who plays like
Sigourney Weaver, and Barman who thinks he's Woody Harrilson from
Cheers. Most of the rest are figurings from my warped imaginings, but I
love playing games, and where I haven't been able to actually play for
so many yearss, my NPCs are my chance to go nuts. :)

>
>Someone once suggested to me, that introducing at least one NPC (minor or
>major, or one shot) every session. What thinks everyone on this?

Absolutely, prevents the game from becoming stale. There are certain
characters and favourites who hang around on a regular basis, one of my
NPCs became so popular he's now a fully fledged member of the team :),
but the players are always meeting new guys every week, and that's not
every module, that works out to several new people every *week* (we play
once a week - for about 12 hours) Makes my life a bit difficult as I've
got to work out what the persons involvement in the game is, but it adds
to the fun. I mean, there are thousands of people in the city, that
makes for thousands of NPCs, which means I get to play thousands of
different characters. Hell I have more fun than the players I think, I
don't have to worry about 1 character, I know I've got a whole pile more
to call upon.

I can't remember the TV series, but I will always remember the little
speech at the beginning, that went something like

There's a million people in the city, that's a million seperate lives,
and a million different stories.

That's Seattle, over a million stories, and over a million people.
Makes for some prety diverse games and some pretty strange people. :)
>
>I can count the NPC's quite easily, and there have been no new ones for at
>least two months game time, or seven months real time. Unless you count
>the Greater Free Spirit (Of Sea) that has been hanging about my character
>since she woke in the hopsital. (spelling intentional).

I think I'm gonna weep for you DVixen, you are serious aren't you. :(
Is there no way that you c an take your GM outside, stick him against a
wall, and threaten to break his kneecaps unless he boosts the game a
bit. :)

>When I am running a game, I use what the characters provide to create a
>story. Andrew, Alex, Eric and myself have given a great deal of detail
>to our characters, and I beleive that no detail is being given to this.
>(IMO) If I was the GM, I'd be giving much more detail to the points we
>have stated. And yes, I have discussed this with Sean, and he said he
>would give it a try, this lasted once small three session arc.

Character backgrounds, as my players, and I'm sure Steve (Bull) will
agree, are one of the most interesting points for a GM, if the
background is detailed enough, and of suitable quality, a seriously
large number of games and game threads can be built from them. At the
moment, I have one character who is central to one game thread, one who
is tying (inadvertently) three of his into the main plot, and another
who has such a convoluted background that I can't help but drop the
players in the deep end of the Drek pit at some point, as her memories
start surfacing. :) I *lurve* PC backgrounds, they give the game body
and substance, there's no point a GM slogging his guts out to provide a
cinematic game session if the players don't have an interest in
involving their characters, but if the players have that interest in
their characters, then it is a sad GM who won't flesh out the world
accordingly to house these people. :)

Once the characters have a history, and the players associates his/her
character with that history, they cease to be two dimensional bits of
paper and numbers, and become a person, an alter-ego if you like. Once
this little game transformation takes place, that "neo"person needs
somewhere to live and breathe, laugh and fight, and maybe, a place to
die, but somewhere where he/she will be missed. This is the GMs job. I
believe, personally, that this ability is in everyone. A man once said,
"Everyone has at least one book inside them," Shadowrun is the GMs way
of writing that book. :)

Maybe I should stop here, before I get into trouble with other people
who have a different idea to GMing, and don't like my comments. :)
>
>I'm starting to feel out characters are little wooden pieces on the GM's
>game board...

If you start feeling this way, then your characters will become little
pieces of wood. Don't give up on them. This character contains a
little piece of *you*, as most fantasy worlds contain a big piece of the
GM. When it collapses, a small door inside you shuts, and it is a
*real* problem opening it again. I know this sounds a little esoteric,
but it's the best way I can find to say - Don't do it. Let the
character live, it's your character, your alter ego.

[snip histories]
>I have mentioned to the GM (several times, until I finally gave up about
>a month ago) what I would like to see in terms of openings for character
>development. After sessions we used to discuss what happened in the game,
>what my character was thinking, uzw. I was the initiator, because when I
>run a story, most of the detailing of scenes is done informally.

I found the easiest way to detail scenes within the game, is to run it
like a movie, it's OK going into long graphic diatribes on the area,
people and objects, but this takes up game time, and becomes the GM's
*moment*, I've always dealt with them in *movie* format, unless the
players are actively studying an area, I give a quick rundown, as one
would get from a quick glance, and try to keep some pace to the game, so
they get the impression that there is pressure on them. The runs start
slow, with more description than action, and slowly speed up through the
scenario, until they are almost running at the table to get things done.
In combat I try to keep it moving, pushing them into making decisions
and acitons on the fly, no thought, just reaction and action. There is
some dice rolling, but it is kept to the barest minimum. Most of the
dice rolling is done at the beginning when they're getting the legwork
over. Most of the time it works, occassionally I fall flat on my face,
but thankfully this is rare. I can proudly sat that I've had several
sessions with sweating players sitting at the table, a couple with fear
in their expressions, the pressure is *really* there, or the character
may die, and believe me, my players *like* their characters.

One of the more memorable sessions, was one of the players holding back
tears over his character when I killed it, I hadn't really - but he
didn't know that, and had to go for the moment, because I needed the
other players to reacxt to his death. His emotion, and the charge at
the time got the players so worked up, he was *warmly* greeted when he
walked out of the combat zone.

>
>I have an excellent grip on how Celt would react in nearly any
>situation. (Including freezing during combat when Caber got shot up
>badly, not a smart thing, but consistant for her) I have a fairly good
>grip on the other personalities of the other PC's, but as for the
>NPC's... same person, different name.

As I've said before, tragic, there's nothing worse than a three
dimensional character in a two dimensional world. :(

>
>What's worse, I seem to be the only person in the game to feel this way.
>Now, am I being neurotic? (likely) Or is it another difference of gaming
>styles between male and females? Dunno.

Not necessarily neurotic, nor a different *style* as such, just a
different desire to see the game change into something you can feel
involved in. Yes, female players approach the game and their characters
in slightly different ways to us fellas, but in general, a good role
player is exactly that, a good role player, male or female. I think
what you're suffering from is a frustration of expression.

[snip]
>> >I know what what you mean, I'm counting up to 25 years gaming now. :(
>
>Wow... About as long as I've been alive...

Thanks D, I really appreciate that, go on, make me feel old. <Grrrr> :)

[snip]
>I wish. Communication is my biggest failing. Despite being told I am
>highly intellegent, I can't carry a conversation on for more than five
>mintues, with the average person. It is rare I meet someone I can discuss
>things with. And I must say, there are many people on this list that I
>enjoy reading posts from. and it's blamed on them, that I feel I can
>delurk. :)

Intelligence is not a sign of communication skills, all intelligence
does is endow a person with the ability to communicate on a different
level, usually in my experience on a - I'm better than you level. but
then I live in a strange part of the world where this is a normal thing,
though these types of people do usually suffer for their arrogance. A
rarity on meeting people to discuss things with usually indicates a non-
similar interests state. I know a lot of people here where I live, that
I can talk to for days on end, and we don't repeat the same thing twice,
but there are others who I can't talk to for more than about 30 seconds
before I lose interest. I absolutely detest soccer, but two of my
*acquaintances* are absolutely manic about it. Within seconds of them
meeting each other, they're on about the latest buyout by so and so, and
then start discussing the latest televisation of twenty two overpaid
nitwits kicking a bag of wind into a fishing net, and I'm gone, I'm in
lala land, and the brain is dead. :)

>Dvixen, who is not re-reading this post and is going to hit send before
>she decides to delete the whole thing.

Only ever re-read a post to check for spelling mistakes, never re-read
for *moral* purposes, as many writers will tell you, go with what you've
written, if you start to critisize it, you will find that you don't like
it anymore, and there leads the road to "word lock".

Anyway, nice to see you delurk. Hopefully some other women will delurk,
and give some of us fellas even more people to talk to, it's kinda
refreshing to see the other side of the coin occassionally :)

TTYL
Pete
--
Pete Sims
Heroes or Fools? That's a determination others will make in hindsight. But by
being here now, we make that determination for ourselves, and it's neither.
Lt.Col.T.C.McQueen
Message no. 6
From: "Steven A. Tinner" <bluewizard@*****.COM>
Subject: Re: Rant and request for advice. (Was Women In Shadowrun)
Date: Tue, 15 Oct 1996 00:55:31 -0700
<SNIP comments about lack of GM creativity - GM=Boring Environment>

Sounds like you're GM has an all too common affliction
He's impressed with his own importance.
Don't get me wrong, the GM is a crucial, vital part of any RP session,
but in this case, it sounds like your GM has chosen to make his NPC's
more important than his PC's.

This rapidly gets old.
There really isn't an easy solution to this one.
The best advice I can give you is to simply force him into RPing with
your character.
The next time you try to interact with an NPC and the GM just asks what
info you're digging for, give him some offbeat answer.

"Oh, I wanted to know where the corporate secretary got her hair done,
it looks great!"

This should hopefully baffle your GM, and at least shock him enough that
he realizes that his NPC's should exist primarily for interaction with
the players.

Another less satisfactory solution to the problem is to simply do your
RPing among the players.
If the GM doesn't want to be a part of the fun, screw him! <Almost
always good advice when it comes to GM's :-)>
Personally, I love when the players stop telling me what they're saying
to each other, and simply start chatting back and forth in character!

Overall the only cure for your GM's behavior is to force him in a
friendly manner to adjust.
If your PC's constantly want to chat up the NPC's he'll be forced to
slowly but surely come around and give them a little effort.
Message no. 7
From: Pete Sims <petesims@********.DEMON.CO.UK>
Subject: Re: Rant and request for advice. (Was Women In Shadowrun)
Date: Tue, 15 Oct 1996 06:59:57 +0100
In article <32634373.7C10@*****.com>, "Steven A. Tinner"
<bluewizard@*****.COM> writes

[snip stuff]
I agree with previous bits.

>Another less satisfactory solution to the problem is to simply do your
>RPing among the players.
>If the GM doesn't want to be a part of the fun, screw him! <Almost
>always good advice when it comes to GM's :-)>

As a confirmed GM I find that your comments are almost sacriligious to
the Great Horned Guild of Itinerant GM's. Continue in such a manner and
thou shalt be outcast, and forced to wear a little tinkly bell that lets
people know - "There goes an outcast GM, he is to be ignored. " :) :)

:)

>Personally, I love when the players stop telling me what they're saying
>to each other, and simply start chatting back and forth in character!

When a game session reduces itself to player interaction, it's usually a
time when I have a notebook and pen ready (hidden from the players,
because while they;re trying to solve the latest problem they usually
give me a whole pile of ideas for the next time. It's incredible that
they can use something as an idea in one game to solve a plot thread,
but fail dismally torecognise their own warped imaginings in the next :)

I love players when they interact, it's so informative, as well as
amusing, and damn good gaming. :)
>
>Overall the only cure for your GM's behavior is to force him in a
>friendly manner to adjust.

Or shoot him :(

>If your PC's constantly want to chat up the NPC's he'll be forced to
>slowly but surely come around and give them a little effort.
This can work, but only if the GM is prepared to a:0 listen, and b:)
acknowledge the players' attempts.

All in all I agree with you Steve, it's a shame when GMs treat their
players like this. :(

It's bad enough that players have to deal with sociopathic GMs like me,
without having this kind of boredom thrust upon them .

Pete
--
Pete Sims
Heroes or Fools? That's a determination others will make in hindsight. But by
being here now, we make that determination for ourselves, and it's neither.
Lt.Col.T.C.McQueen
Message no. 8
From: NightLife <habenir@******.SAN.UC.EDU>
Subject: Re: Rant and request for advice. (Was Women In Shadowrun)
Date: Mon, 14 Oct 1996 02:50:35 -0700
>It's bad enough that players have to deal with sociopathic GMs like me,
>without having this kind of boredom thrust upon them .
>
>Pete

Sociopathic GM's what about Psychotic players, or schizophrenic player or
even the paraniod schiozphrenic players, or how about the combo
psychological nightmare of paranoid sociopathic with psychotic tendencies
etc..... ARRGGHH!
Those people who either are probably nuts or the PCs are always nut. These
are the people who tend to atleast make my life a GM's nightmare. This type
of player doesn't usually get invited back with me.

"So why do you play this game?"

(response from a player)" So I fight and kill people"

"Why?"

(response from a player) " I don't know."

ARRGGHH! <shakes head >


>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
Nightlife Inc.
<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<

If you have to ask then it's probably classified.
Which means that I have to follow protocol.
But if you ask nicley I might forget that you asked.
Then again maybe not.

>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
Document Classified
<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<
Message no. 9
From: Pete Sims <petesims@********.DEMON.CO.UK>
Subject: Re: Rant and request for advice. (Was Women In Shadowrun)
Date: Wed, 16 Oct 1996 04:28:26 +0100
In article <1.5.4.32.19961014095035.006708dc@******.san.uc.edu>,
NightLife <habenir@******.san.uc.edu> writes
>>It's bad enough that players have to deal with sociopathic GMs like me,
>>without having this kind of boredom thrust upon them .
>>
>>Pete
>
>Sociopathic GM's what about Psychotic players, or schizophrenic player or
>even the paraniod schiozphrenic players, or how about the combo
>psychological nightmare of paranoid sociopathic with psychotic tendencies
>etc..... ARRGGHH!

I have one of those in my game. He suffers from *sll* of the above.
Funnily enough his character is an ex doc wagon medoc, presumably that
means he can heal them after he's shot the crap out of them. Everyone
allows him to play because he's such a willing bullet barrier.

No not really, he is trying very hard to make this one a proper
character, after playing 15 or 16 bullet stoppers.

>Those people who either are probably nuts or the PCs are always nut. These
>are the people who tend to atleast make my life a GM's nightmare. This type
>of player doesn't usually get invited back with me.

The only kind of player I won't allow to return after I;ve asked him to
leave, is one who causes not only trouble for the PCs in the game, but
also causes trouble for the players, with misinformationm cheating and
lying. I;ve had one, he was asked to leave. *He* will not be invited
to return.

>"So why do you play this game?"
>
>(response from a player)" So I fight and kill people"
>
>"Why?"
>
>(response from a player) " I don't know."
>
>ARRGGHH! <shakes head >

I've met the type. Thankfully I don't have the type in my gmae, but I
know GMs who do, and like you they shake their head in frustration and
disbelief at the attitude of this strange kind and thankfully rare
player.

Pete
--
Pete Sims

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