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Message no. 1
From: "L.T.Bryant" <cs5025@***.AC.UK>
Subject: rates of fire
Date: Fri, 10 Jun 1994 16:07:03 +0100
Rat im sorry but i aggree with the chop as ive seen the ROF of
the mini guns that are used on helo`s they have retes of fire of
around 6000 rounds/ minute from a 6 barreled system, so i think
the pistol has a massive typo, as outher wise the dam thing
would fail under the strees`es
Hope this helps.
--
oh rose thou art sick
the invisible worm that flys by night.....STEEL
Message no. 2
From: Stainless Steel Rat <ratinox@***.NEU.EDU>
Subject: Re: rates of fire
Date: Fri, 10 Jun 1994 13:20:03 -0400
>>>>> "L" == L T Bryant <cs5025@***.AC.UK> writes:

L> Rat im sorry but i aggree with the chop as ive seen the ROF of the mini
L> guns that are used on helo`s they have retes of fire of around 6000
L> rounds/ minute from a 6 barreled system, so i think the pistol has a
L> massive typo, as outher wise the dam thing would fail under the
L> strees`es

Of /course/ it would fall apart! That's what I'm saying! Such a weapon is
mechanically unfeasable.

--
Rat <ratinox@***.neu.edu> | "I came. I saw. I did what I had to do,
http://www.ccs.neu.edu/home/ratinox | and got the hell out!" --a button
Message no. 3
From: Gian-Paolo Musumeci <musumeci@***.LIS.UIUC.EDU>
Subject: Re: rates of fire
Date: Fri, 10 Jun 1994 13:14:19 -0500
Okay, my little bit on this.

1500 rounds a second is a typo. The heat of friction will melt the barrel down
into slag.

---------------------
Gian-Paolo Musumeci solstice@****.edu
"Reality is for people who can't handle drugs."
Message no. 4
From: "J.W.Thomas" <cm5323@***.AC.UK>
Subject: Rates of fire
Date: Thu, 16 Jun 1994 15:17:06 +0100
Just a note to get the ROF sorted

most smg's fire at about 600rpm
mini uzi runs at 950 rpm
micro uzi is about 1100 rpm
the calico SMG has 750 rpm
the bushman fires from 1rpm to 1400rpm
The FNp90 has 900 rpm
the GLOCK18 fires at 1300rpm
G-11 is 2000rpm
Miniguns reach 6,000 rpm

Even with 50 years of military developement, a theoretical
cyclic rate of fire for a single barrel pistol of 90,000 rpm is
not possible.
Either the writers haven't a clue, or its a mistake.

CHOPPER
Message no. 5
From: NATHANIEL MALLET <malln00@***.USHERB.CA>
Subject: Re: Rates of fire
Date: Thu, 16 Jun 1994 13:32:38 -0400
Hey all.
If I am not mistaking, the gun on the A-10 (warthog or tank killer)
has a rate of fire of (I think) 1000 or 2000 Rounds a second. yes a
second. Scary stuff. Which means a limit of 90000 rounds a minute
would be not entirely true. Keep in mind that the A-10 gun can't fire
for more than 1 or 2 seconds at a time, since the barrels of the gun
heat up quite a bit, and considering the slow speed an A-10 flies at,
the recoil could probably send the plane way off course.

Could someone please confirm this ROF? I heard this in a
discussion. I thought it was sort of high, but with all the work done
by the military in the states, well, you really never know.

Nathaniel "Cod" Mallet
Message no. 6
From: Marc A Renouf <jormung@*****.UMICH.EDU>
Subject: Re: Rates of fire
Date: Thu, 16 Jun 1994 14:35:00 -0400
On Thu, 16 Jun 1994, J.W.Thomas wrote:
(on the subject of the Ruger Thunderbolt, no doubt)

> Just a note to get the ROF sorted

> Even with 50 years of military developement, a theoretical
> cyclic rate of fire for a single barrel pistol of 90,000 rpm is
> not possible.
> Either the writers haven't a clue, or its a mistake.
>
> CHOPPER
>

It's called suspension of disbelief. Are you teling me that you can
accept the re-emergence of magic and metahumanity, but you can't accept a
heinous cyclic rate?! Shadowrun is set 60 years in the future. Think of
where aviation was 60 years ago. We were barely getting the monowing
propeller planes going. And think about computers 60 years ago. Pretty
non-existent, right? But now, computers can do amazing things that
couldn't have been dreamed of even >ten< years ago, let alone sixty. So
some techno-wiz comes up with an entirely NEW system that was heretofore
unimagined, and this system can be used to boost the cyclic rate of a gun
from ouch to wow. That's why stuff like that is called a "breakthrough"

to quote a quote:

"Faster, meaner, smarter. God, I hate the technology
curve." --Fastjack


Marc
Message no. 7
From: Adam Getchell <acgetche@****.UCDAVIS.EDU>
Subject: Re: Rates of fire
Date: Thu, 16 Jun 1994 12:13:36 -0700
Please check my analysis of the Ruger Thunderbolt. I believe I
came up with a feasible way to get 90,000 rpm.

+-------------+---------------------------------------------------------------+
|Adam Getchell|acgetche@****.engr.ucdavis.edu | ez000270@*******.ucdavis.edu |
| acgetchell |"Invincibility is in oneself, vulnerability is in the opponent"|
+-------------+---------------------------------------------------------------+
Message no. 8
From: Adam Getchell <acgetche@****.UCDAVIS.EDU>
Subject: Re: Rates of fire
Date: Thu, 16 Jun 1994 16:59:08 -0700
Untrue.
The GAU-8 30mm cannon has a ROF of 4200 rounds per minute. I
remember an A-10 driver telling me the trick was getting tight groups of
50-70 shots at 4,000 feet, which is the "burst size" the gun uses. He
said flying the plane was a cast-iron b*tch while shooting, and the plane
would *stagger* in mid-air.

+-------------+---------------------------------------------------------------+
|Adam Getchell|acgetche@****.engr.ucdavis.edu | ez000270@*******.ucdavis.edu |
| acgetchell |"Invincibility is in oneself, vulnerability is in the opponent"|
+-------------+---------------------------------------------------------------+
Message no. 9
From: Stainless Steel Rat <ratinox@***.NEU.EDU>
Subject: Re: Rates of fire
Date: Thu, 16 Jun 1994 20:52:36 -0400
>>>>> "NATHANIEL" == NATHANIEL MALLET
<malln00@***.USHERB.CA> writes:

NATHANIEL> If I am not mistaking, the gun on the A-10 (warthog or tank
NATHANIEL> killer) has a rate of fire of (I think) 1000 or 2000 Rounds a
NATHANIEL> second.

You're mistaken, significantly. The General Electric GAU-8/A Avenger cannon
has an ROF of between 3000 and 4000 rounds per minute. During the first
second of firing the ROF is approximately 50 rounds per second, then once
the barrel rotation is up to speed the ROF is approximately 70 rounds per
second.

--
Rat <ratinox@***.neu.edu> | "I'd rather be a pig than a
fascist."
http://www.ccs.neu.edu/home/ratinox | --Porco Rosso (The Crimson Pig)
Message no. 10
From: Stainless Steel Rat <ratinox@***.NEU.EDU>
Subject: Re: Rates of fire
Date: Thu, 16 Jun 1994 20:55:13 -0400
>>>>> "Adam" == Adam Getchell <acgetche@****.UCDAVIS.EDU>
writes:

Adam> Please check my analysis of the Ruger Thunderbolt. I believe
Adam> I came up with a feasible way to get 90,000 rpm.

Theoretically I suppose it could work. But the forces involved would
probably rip the weapon out of the shooter's hand. As I and a couple of
other figured, the third round has to be moving at over 90 miles per hour
to feed from the magazine to the firing chamber in the given timespan. I
don't feel like figuring the actual acceleration and force involved because
it really isn't worth my time.

--
Rat <ratinox@***.neu.edu> | "When sub-culture becomes pop-culture,
http://www.ccs.neu.edu/home/ratinox | it's time to move on to something new."
this space intentionally left blank | --Dana Carvey
Message no. 11
From: MILLIKEN DAMION A <u9467882@***.EDU.AU>
Subject: Re: Rates of fire
Date: Fri, 17 Jun 1994 13:06:16 +1000
Adam writes:

> Please check my analysis of the Ruger Thunderbolt. I believe I
> came up with a feasible way to get 90,000 rpm.

I like it. Though my opinion doesnt count for much; I know jack shit about
guns. BTW, i wouldnt mind a copy of the analysis (as I didnt save it), so
would you (or some other kind hearted soul) mind reposting it?
Ta

Damion
Message no. 12
From: allone12@****.netvision.net.il
Subject: rates of fire
Date: Fri, 10 May 96 01:37:27 PDT
how many bullets can a machinegun
fire?supermachinegun?minigun?
no body answered:
how much should a helicopter with:
handeling 5,2 pilot,6 body,4 armor,3
firmpoints,3 hardpoints and 2 signature
cost?
Message no. 13
From: "Dr. Bolthy von Schotz" <bolthy@**.com>
Subject: Re: rates of fire
Date: Thu, 9 May 1996 11:10:03 -0500 (CDT)
On Fri, 10 May 1996 allone12@****.netvision.net.il wrote:

> how many bullets can a machinegun
> fire?supermachinegun?minigun?
> no body answered:
> how much should a helicopter with:
> handeling 5,2 pilot,6 body,4 armor,3
> firmpoints,3 hardpoints and 2 signature
> cost?
>

I think in 1st ed. it was 10... 2nd edition might have been 15... I know
the vindicator fires off something like 20...

Helicopter? Depends on the kind you want... you can modify all of them
to taste... but I don't know if any one is exactly like that...



|\ /\ |\ | |\
|/ \/ | \ |\ | \
|\ /\ | |/ \ |
|/ / \ | | \|

http://weber.u.washington.edu/~bolthy
"Remember: Heaven is Blue. Tomorrow, the world."
-Head of the Blue Meanies
Message no. 14
From: cobaltblue@********.net
Subject: RE: rates of fire
Date: Thu, 9 May 96 12:44:43 PDT
On Fri, 10 May 96 01:37:27 PDT allone12@****.netvision.net.il wrote:
>how many bullets can a machinegun
>fire?supermachinegun?minigun?

Are you talking about how many rounds does each weapon carry, or maximum number of rds
fired in a complex action?

In a complex action, you can burn all the rds in your weapon but for every round fired @
full auto, it imposes a +1 recoil modifier to the target number, so the number gets worse
for every round over recoil compensation.

Most MGs in SR carry either 50 caseless or a belt of x amount of ammo, usually 100 rds,
although some have box ammo, usually 50 rds.

Don't worry, if I'm wrong, someone will correct me.

cobaltblue@********.net

Rod Schmidt
Ft. Bragg, NC
Message no. 15
From: Peter David Boddy <pdboddy@****.carleton.ca>
Subject: Re: rates of fire
Date: Thu, 9 May 96 13:22:40 EDT
allone12@****.netvision.net.il writes:
>
> how many bullets can a machinegun
> fire?supermachinegun?minigun?
> no body answered:
> how much should a helicopter with:
> handeling 5,2 pilot,6 body,4 armor,3
> firmpoints,3 hardpoints and 2 signature
> cost?

Machineguns can fire semi-auto (SA), which is 2 bullets, burst fire (BF),
which is 3 bullets, and full-auto (FA), which is up to 10 bullets.

Super machine guns, I think you mean the hyper velocity ones from Feilds
of Fire, right? These fire SA/BF/FA, but their bursts are 6 bullets, and
their full-auto is up to 15 bullets.

Miniguns, which come in three flavours (light, medium, heavy), fire
full-auto only, which is a set rate of 15 bullets.

Damage

I'll use the light versions for each of the three types of machine guns.
These start with a base damage rating of 7S (using regular ammo), except
for the HV, which startsd at 6S.

SA Those machine guns that can do semi-auto, use their base rating
for damage (again, I'm just using reg. ammo). The first shot has not
recoil penalty, the second shot has +1 recoil penalty, which can be
reduced by recoil compensation (duh:). The machine gun, and the HV
machine gun will do 7S damage, the minigun can't do SA.

BF For BF damage, add +1 to the damage rating for every bullet fired,
so the machine gun gets +3, and the HV will get +6. For every three
bullets, increase the damage level by one level. So, the machine gun
would fire a burst of three bullets, doing 10D. The HV would fire six
bullet bursts doing 12D damage. The burst adds a recoil penalty equal to
the number of bullets fired.

FA Full auto damage increases the damage rating +1 for every bullet
after the first. A machine gun would get +9, and the HV and minigun,
would get +14 (remeber that the HV can fire any number of rounds up to 15,
but the minigun has to fire 15). The damage level will increase by one
level for each three bullets fired. A machine gun will do 16D (if it
fires all ten rounds), the HV will do 21D (again, if it fires all 15
rounds), and the minigun will do 21D. The recoil penalty for full auto is
+1 for each bullet after the first. NOTE: For medium and heavy machine
guns, and ALL miniguns, double the recoil penalty, after factoring in
recoil compensation. So a minigun (which has to fire 15 rounds) with a
recoil compensation of 5, will have a recoil penalty of 18 (14-5=9, *2, ).

SA and BF are simple actions, meaning that you can fire two SA shots, or
two BF shots (or a combination of one each) per combat phase. A full
auto burst can only be fired once a combatr phase, though you can divide a
FA among several targets. eg. Two targets, you fire FA with your machine
gun, which has 5 recoil compensation, and reg. ammo. You divide your FA
equally (you don't have to, you can divide any way you want, with a
minimum of three bullets per target), so five bullets per target. Two 11D
'shots' per target, the second 'shot' will have +4 recoil penalty, +1
penalty for a second target, plus movement modifiers, and range modifiers.

Hope this helps.

Pete

Pete aka Spitfire
Test your might...
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Peter David Boddy
Carleton University
Email address: pdboddy@****.carleton.ca
Email address: bx955@*******.carleton.ca
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Message no. 16
From: "Sascha Pabst" <Sascha.Pabst@**********.Uni-Oldenburg.DE>
Subject: Re: rates of fire
Date: Fri, 10 May 1996 00:27:16 +0200
At 10:37 Uhr 10.05.96, allone12@****.netvision.net.il wrote:
>how many bullets can a machinegun
>fire?supermachinegun?minigun?
Singe Shot: 1/Phase
Semi-Automatic: 2/Phase
Full Auto/ LMG/MMG/HMG: 10/Phase
FA Minigun: 15/Phase
FA Super Machine Gun: 15/Phase

Phase is a phase the user of the weapon can take action.

>no body answered:
>how much should a helicopter with:
>handeling 5,2 pilot,6 body,4 armor,3
>firmpoints,3 hardpoints and 2 signature
>cost?
*shrug* more then 300.000NY if civilian, more then 500KNY if
security or military
I'd guess...

Sascha

--
+---___---------+----------------------------------------+--------------------+
| / / _______ | Jhary-a-Conel aka Sascha Pabst |The one who does not|
| / /_/ ____/ |Sascha.Pabst@**********.Uni-Oldenburg.de| learn from history |
| \___ __/ | | is bound to live |
|==== \_/ ======| *Wearing hats is just a way of life* | through it again. |
|LOGOUT FASCISM!| - Me | |
+------------- http://www.informatik.uni-oldenburg.de/~jhary -----------------+
Message no. 17
From: Bert Van de Merckt <Bert.VandeMerckt@****.be>
Subject: Re: rates of fire
Date: Fri, 10 May 1996 11:07:58 +0200
Sascha Pabst wrote:
>
> At 10:37 Uhr 10.05.96, allone12@****.netvision.net.il wrote:
> >how many bullets can a machinegun
> >fire?supermachinegun?minigun?
> Singe Shot: 1/Phase
> Semi-Automatic: 2/Phase
> Full Auto/ LMG/MMG/HMG: 10/Phase
> FA Minigun: 15/Phase
> FA Super Machine Gun: 15/Phase
>
> Phase is a phase the user of the weapon can take action.

question: can a gun shoot faster in one round than another? if you keep pressing
the trigger, doesnt it shoot always as fast?? so a sam with 12+4d6 or a mage with
6+1d6 initiative will fire the same amount of bullets each round???

+=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-+
"Kryten, unpack Rachel and get out the puncture repair
kit. I'm ALIVE!!!!!"(just before he explodes) - Rimmer
****************************************************
mailto:bert.vandemerckt@****.be
http://www.ping.be/~ping8611
Visit my Anne Clark fanpage:
http://www.ping.be/~ping8611/anneclark/anneclark.html
+-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=+
Message no. 18
From: "Gurth" <gurth@******.nl>
Subject: Re: rates of fire
Date: Fri, 10 May 1996 12:25:01 +0100
Sascha Pabst said on 0:27/10 May 96...

> At 10:37 Uhr 10.05.96, allone12@****.netvision.net.il wrote:
> >how many bullets can a machinegun
> >fire?supermachinegun?minigun?
> Singe Shot: 1/Phase
> Semi-Automatic: 2/Phase
> Full Auto/ LMG/MMG/HMG: 10/Phase
> FA Minigun: 15/Phase
> FA Super Machine Gun: 15/Phase
>
> Phase is a phase the user of the weapon can take action.

To be completely correct, it is:

Single Shot (SS): 1 per Simple Action, but you may only fire it once per
phase
Semi-Auto (SA): 1 per Simple Action, no restrictions otherwise
Burst Fire (BF): 3 per Simple Action for normal weapons, 6 per Simple
Action for super machineguns
Full-Auto (FA): up to 10 per Complex Action (firer decides how many) for
normal weapons, up to 15 per Complex Action for super machineguns,
always 15 per Complex Action for miniguns (cannot be changed, except
if you have less than 15 shots in your clip of course)

And because you only get Simple or Complex Actions in the phases you
rolled for initiative, you can only fire at those moments.

--
Gurth@******.nl - http://www.xs4all.nl/~gurth/index.html
Magazines and free soda.
-> NERPS Project Leader & Unofficial Shadowrun Guru <-
-> The Character Mortuary: http://huizen.dds.nl/~mortuary/mortuary.html <-

-----BEGIN GEEK CODE BLOCK-----
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------END GEEK CODE BLOCK------
Message no. 19
From: allone12@****.netvision.net.il
Subject: Re: rates of fire
Date: Fri, 10 May 96 21:30:25 PDT
about the letter bert van de merckt
sent-the samurai will shoot more rounds
because he has higher iniitiative-more
actions-more bullets. it will take them
both the same time (one turn) to fire a
diffrent number of bullets.
Message no. 20
From: "Andre' Selmer" <031ANDRE@******.wits.ac.za>
Subject: Re: rates of fire
Date: Mon, 13 May 1996 10:52:23 GMT + 2:00
@
@ about the letter bert van de merckt
@ sent-the samurai will shoot more rounds
@ because he has higher iniitiative-more
@ actions-more bullets. it will take them
@ both the same time (one turn) to fire a
@ diffrent number of bullets.

We play it that any character can fire a maximum number of
bullets in a round. We assumed that the maximum number of actions any
character can get is four, that we multiplied by the number of round
the gun can fire in an action. That is the maximum a character can
fire in a round, reguardless of initative. Accuracy on the other hand
is dependent on the characters skill.

For example the with a heavy pistol the maximum shots that can be
fired a round is 8. The characters can fire as many shots up to a max
of eight in any given round. *However* the character can only aim to
hit on his initative. So Street Sam Joe rolls 22 for iniative,
Hemetic Harry roll 8. Street Sam Joe could fire if he wanted 8 shots,
but only six would have dice allocated. The remaining shots 2 are
assumed to be wild, just noise. Hermetic Harry can also fire 8 shots,
but only 2 will have dice allocated, the remaining 6 are just smoke
and noise (Unless GM rules otherwise).

In this manner the rate of fire is dependet on the gun, not on
the characters initative, but these 'wasted' shots are worthless
(except they do count towards recoil ;)






Andre'

-- We exist because you want us to, because you are
|__|__ afraid to fact the facts. We are what you fear
/\ /\ \ in the deep recesses of your soul, yourselves.
|\ /\ /| | It is there in the shadows of your soul and those
|/ \/ \| | of the street that we exist. Through the use of
\/__\/ might, magic, cunning, blood, sweat and tears we
protect you from your fears, from youselves, from
others and keep your utopia, not ours, intact.
Message no. 21
From: Bert Van de Merckt <Bert.VandeMerckt@****.be>
Subject: Re: rates of fire
Date: Mon, 13 May 1996 19:13:54 +0200
Andre' Selmer wrote:
> @ about the letter bert van de merckt
> @ sent-the samurai will shoot more rounds
> @ because he has higher iniitiative-more
> @ actions-more bullets. it will take them
> @ both the same time (one turn) to fire a
> @ diffrent number of bullets.

<I appear to have missed this message earlier...> I'm not an expert on guns,
but to me this appears rather weird: the bullets are not wired, so how can
they come faster with a different shooter???

> We play it that any character can fire a maximum number of
> bullets in a round. We assumed that the maximum number of actions any
> character can get is four, that we multiplied by the number of round
> the gun can fire in an action. That is the maximum a character can
> fire in a round, reguardless of initative. Accuracy on the other hand
> is dependent on the characters skill.

Now that's an idea!

[snip]
> In this manner the rate of fire is dependet on the gun, not on
> the characters initative, but these 'wasted' shots are worthless
> (except they do count towards recoil ;)

So the 'wasted shots' have no chance of hitting (bystanders preferably
innocent >) whatsoever?

+=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-+
"Kryten, unpack Rachel and get out the puncture repair
kit. I'm ALIVE!!!!!"(just before he explodes) - Rimmer
****************************************************
mailto:bert.vandemerckt@****.be
http://www.ping.be/~ping8611
Visit my Anne Clark fanpage:
http://www.ping.be/~ping8611/anneclark/anneclark.html
+-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=+
Message no. 22
From: "Andre' Selmer" <031ANDRE@******.wits.ac.za>
Subject: Re: rates of fire
Date: Tue, 14 May 1996 10:05:15 GMT + 2:00
<snip>
@
@ [snip]
@ > In this manner the rate of fire is dependet on the gun, not on
@ > the characters initative, but these 'wasted' shots are worthless
@ > (except they do count towards recoil ;)
@
@ So the 'wasted shots' have no chance of hitting (bystanders preferably
@ innocent >) whatsoever?

GM's disgression my dear lad, GM's disgression ;). Otherwise make
a random roll if it is above a certain T# (depending on people
around) someone might get hit.


Andre'

-- We exist because you want us to, because you are
|__|__ afraid to fact the facts. We are what you fear
/\ /\ \ in the deep recesses of your soul, yourselves.
|\ /\ /| | It is there in the shadows of your soul and those
|/ \/ \| | of the street that we exist. Through the use of
\/__\/ might, magic, cunning, blood, sweat and tears we
protect you from your fears, from youselves, from
others and keep your utopia, not ours, intact.
Message no. 23
From: wilsonpj@******.STCLOUD.MSUS.EDU (Peter)
Subject: Re: rates of fire
Date: Tue, 14 May 1996 09:58:00 -0600
bert.vandemerckt@****.be wrote:

>Andre' Selmer wrote:
>>
>> We play it that any character can fire a maximum number of
>> bullets in a round. We assumed that the maximum number of actions any
>> character can get is four, that we multiplied by the number of round
>> the gun can fire in an action. That is the maximum a character can
>> fire in a round, reguardless of initative. Accuracy on the other hand
>> is dependent on the characters skill.
>
>Now that's an idea!
>


You're forgetting that the caracter needs an action to squeeze the trigger.
Therefore the character with the slower reaction time won't get a chance
to pull the trigger untill the faster one has done so (more than once in
some cases). This would have an effect if the slower character was using a
weapon on full auto, continuing from the preceding turn.

Lets use the same example again, looking as two characters in the middle of
a larger fire fight. Street Sam Joe fires at another target on 22 and 12,
taking it out in his second phase. On 8 Hermetic Harry has seen the muzzle
flash but can't see Joe well enough to target a spell on him, so he decides
to spray down the area with a LMG he picked off a dead guard. (how hard
can it be?) He announces that he is going to fire for two phases, and
pulls the trigger. In his next turn, the LMG will fire untill he can
release the trigger again on 8 (to keep things simple). That is assuming
that Joe doesn't nail him on any of his intervening phases of action.

How does this look. (now you know why we _never_ tell mages to do the lead
hose)

>> In this manner the rate of fire is dependet on the gun, not on
>> the characters initative, but these 'wasted' shots are worthless
>> (except they do count towards recoil ;)

>So the 'wasted shots' have no chance of hitting (bystanders preferably
>innocent >) whatsoever?

Good point. How do you determine the colateral damage of these wasted shots?
(or any miss for that matter)

Piatro
Message no. 24
From: Bert Van de Merckt <Bert.VandeMerckt@****.be>
Subject: Re: rates of fire
Date: Tue, 14 May 1996 23:13:16 +0200
Andre' Selmer wrote:
<snip>[snip](snip)
> @ So the 'wasted shots' have no chance of hitting (bystanders preferably
> @ innocent >) whatsoever?
> GM's disgression my dear lad, GM's disgression ;). Otherwise make
> a random roll if it is above a certain T# (depending on people
> around) someone might get hit.

Stray Shots (optional) page 93 ?????????

+=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-+
"Kryten, unpack Rachel and get out the puncture repair
kit. I'm ALIVE!!!!!"(just before he explodes) - Rimmer
****************************************************
mailto:bert.vandemerckt@****.be
http://www.ping.be/~ping8611
Visit my Anne Clark fanpage:
http://www.ping.be/~ping8611/anneclark/anneclark.html
+-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=+
Message no. 25
From: Bert Van de Merckt <Bert.VandeMerckt@****.be>
Subject: Re: rates of fire
Date: Tue, 14 May 1996 23:29:57 +0200
Peter wrote:
<snip>
> You're forgetting that the caracter needs an action to squeeze the trigger.
> Therefore the character with the slower reaction time won't get a chance
> to pull the trigger untill the faster one has done so (more than once in
> some cases). This would have an effect if the slower character was using a
> weapon on full auto, continuing from the preceding turn.

but the weapon itself cant fire more quickly!!! so, give each (type of) gun an
absolute maximum rate of fire, regardless of how many actions a character has.
a combat round is supposed to be 3 seconds or something, and *thats* how fast
the gun fires (replace *thats* by number of rounds)... if your sam can squeeze
the trigger faster, okido, but since there are bullets spraying out _at that
moment_, he cant shoot more bullets??

Or may we assume technology is far enough advanced that guns fire as quickly as
we (evil gms and munchkin (aah the m-word!!!) players) want to???

> >So the 'wasted shots' have no chance of hitting (bystanders preferably
> >innocent >) whatsoever?
> Good point. How do you determine the colateral damage of these wasted shots?
> (or any miss for that matter)

There's a rule about stray shots: GM decides if there's a potential target in the
zone, roll in that case 2d6 against 4 (short) 5 .... If 1 or more successes is rolled,
resolve the hit normally, but give the attacker 1d6 more successes. (now arent they
evil ;).

I see a problem with large crowds (johhny sam goes firing away in the mall) here :)

Smartguns dont do stray rounds they also mention.

ciao,bert

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Message no. 26
From: "Sascha Pabst" <Sascha.Pabst@**********.Uni-Oldenburg.DE>
Subject: Re: rates of fire
Date: Wed, 15 May 1996 10:46:32 +0200
At 23:29 Uhr 14.05.96, Bert Van de Merckt wrote:
>but the weapon itself cant fire more quickly!!! so, give each (type of) gun an
>absolute maximum rate of fire, regardless of how many actions a character has.
>a combat round is supposed to be 3 seconds or something, and *thats* how fast
>the gun fires (replace *thats* by number of rounds)... if your sam can squeeze
>the trigger faster, okido, but since there are bullets spraying out _at that
>moment_, he cant shoot more bullets??
Either you haven't had a chance to fire Semi-Automatics yet, or whatever you
shot has _MUCH_ better qualities then what I know (not that's much, but...)
When you pull the trigger on a SemAuto (Uh... I do not like the "SA" and
"SS"
abbr. ... for historical reasons... and avoid 'em where possible), one bullet
comes out. You gotta let go the trigger and repull it to bring the second
one on its way. So either you assume "just pulling the trigger" is a free
action, and aiming in the right direction is what it makes a simple action,
or your statement doesn't make sense... IMHOandLimitedExperience, of course.

Sascha

--
+---___---------+----------------------------------------+--------------------+
| / / _______ | Jhary-a-Conel aka Sascha Pabst |The one who does not|
| / /_/ ____/ |Sascha.Pabst@**********.Uni-Oldenburg.de| learn from history |
| \___ __/ | | is bound to live |
|==== \_/ ======| *Wearing hats is just a way of life* | through it again. |
|LOGOUT FASCISM!| - Me | |
+------------- http://www.informatik.uni-oldenburg.de/~jhary -----------------+
Message no. 27
From: "Gurth" <gurth@******.nl>
Subject: Re: rates of fire
Date: Wed, 15 May 1996 11:27:36 +0100
Bert Van de Merckt said on 23:29/14 May 96...

> but the weapon itself cant fire more quickly!!! so, give each (type of) gun an
> absolute maximum rate of fire, regardless of how many actions a character has.
> a combat round is supposed to be 3 seconds or something, and *thats* how fast
> the gun fires (replace *thats* by number of rounds)... if your sam can squeeze
> the trigger faster, okido, but since there are bullets spraying out _at that
> moment_, he cant shoot more bullets??

This isn't all that useful in SR, really. Take a look at RL autofire
rates: most SMGs are somewhere between 600 and 900 rpm (about 10 to 15
per second), some weapons go lower and some go as high as 1200 rpm (20 per
second). Miniguns are an exception here, of course -- 100 per second is a
bit extreme :)

Anyway, take a turn to be 3 seconds, that gives a ROF of about 30 to 45
rounds per turn. Assuming a street sam typically has 3 actions per turn,
in each of which he can shoot 10 rounds, you get the 30 rounds per turn
established above. If he's firing a super MG, he gets 45 rounds per turn,
again within the RL limits...

--
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Message no. 28
From: "Sascha Pabst" <Sascha.Pabst@**********.Uni-Oldenburg.DE>
Subject: Re: rates of fire
Date: Wed, 15 May 1996 10:46:50 +0200
At 23:13 Uhr 14.05.96, Bert Van de Merckt wrote:
>Andre' Selmer wrote:
><snip>[snip](snip)
>> @ So the 'wasted shots' have no chance of hitting (bystanders preferably
>> @ innocent >) whatsoever?
>> GM's disgression my dear lad, GM's disgression ;). Otherwise make
>> a random roll if it is above a certain T# (depending on people
>> around) someone might get hit.

>Stray Shots (optional) page 93 ?????????
Covering/Suppression Fire (FoF p.78) is what I use for such situations... :-)
Much better chance to hit someone (innocent):-)

Sascha

--
+---___---------+----------------------------------------+--------------------+
| / / _______ | Jhary-a-Conel aka Sascha Pabst |The one who does not|
| / /_/ ____/ |Sascha.Pabst@**********.Uni-Oldenburg.de| learn from history |
| \___ __/ | | is bound to live |
|==== \_/ ======| *Wearing hats is just a way of life* | through it again. |
|LOGOUT FASCISM!| - Me | |
+------------- http://www.informatik.uni-oldenburg.de/~jhary -----------------+
Message no. 29
From: "Andre' Selmer" <031ANDRE@******.wits.ac.za>
Subject: Re: rates of fire
Date: Wed, 15 May 1996 12:39:23 GMT + 2:00
@ Andre' Selmer wrote:
@ <snip>[snip](snip)
@ > @ So the 'wasted shots' have no chance of hitting (bystanders preferably
@ > @ innocent >) whatsoever?
@ > GM's disgression my dear lad, GM's disgression ;). Otherwise make
@ > a random roll if it is above a certain T# (depending on people
@ > around) someone might get hit.
@
@ Stray Shots (optional) page 93 ?????????

Heck seeing as the only characters who have fired guns in
literally the entire campaign are the Street Sams with Smart guns, I
don't think we've even bothered to look at the stray bullets option.




Andre'

-- We exist because you want us to, because you are
|__|__ afraid to fact the facts. We are what you fear
/\ /\ \ in the deep recesses of your soul, yourselves.
|\ /\ /| | It is there in the shadows of your soul and those
|/ \/ \| | of the street that we exist. Through the use of
\/__\/ might, magic, cunning, blood, sweat and tears we
protect you from your fears, from youselves, from
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Message no. 30
From: Bert Van de Merckt <Bert.VandeMerckt@****.be>
Subject: Re: rates of fire
Date: Wed, 15 May 1996 15:52:30 +0200
Gurth wrote:
> Take a look at RL autofire rates: ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
aha thats what i needed to know, i told you im not an expert :)

thanks gurthman.

+=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-+
"Kryten, unpack Rachel and get out the puncture repair
kit. I'm ALIVE!!!!!"(just before he explodes) - Rimmer
****************************************************
mailto:bert.vandemerckt@****.be
http://www.ping.be/~ping8611
Visit my Anne Clark fanpage:
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