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Message no. 1
From: Justin Pinnow <vanyel@*******.NET>
Subject: RBB 1 vs. RBB 2
Date: Tue, 13 Jan 1998 07:52:24 -0500
Hi folks,

One of my players wants to play a rigger, and I wanted to know of your
opinions about both RBB books. Which is better? Which runs smoother? He
owns RBB1, but would it be worth running out and buying RBB2?

He also had an idea (which I kinda liked) on how to determine whether or
not he had any given part available for a project....like he keeps bits and
pieces of tech around the garage and whenever he needs a part he rolls a
die vs. a TN (equal to availability of part?). The more NY in stuff he has
at the garage, the more likely he is to have the part he needs, etc. Is
anything like this covered in either RBB?

Thanks!

Justin :)
Message no. 2
From: Adam Treloar <guardian@*******.DIALIX.COM.AU>
Subject: Re: RBB 1 vs. RBB 2
Date: Wed, 14 Jan 1998 00:37:54 +1100
On Tue, 13 Jan 1998, Justin Pinnow wrote:

> Hi folks,
>
> One of my players wants to play a rigger, and I wanted to know of your
> opinions about both RBB books. Which is better? Which runs smoother? He
> owns RBB1, but would it be worth running out and buying RBB2?

RBB1 has less detailed rules (not necessarily better, tho) but also has
much less detail in vehicle design. Personally, I'd go buy RBB2. It may
not be an essential, since you have RBB1, but it's still nice to have.
And it makes things like Steel Lynx's easier to kill, and APCs harder to
kill. Good things, in my popinion. :) Unless I'm playing a rigger with
lots of SL's, that is.

> He also had an idea (which I kinda liked) on how to determine whether or
> not he had any given part available for a project....like he keeps bits and
> pieces of tech around the garage and whenever he needs a part he rolls a
> die vs. a TN (equal to availability of part?). The more NY in stuff he has
> at the garage, the more likely he is to have the part he needs, etc. Is
> anything like this covered in either RBB?

Simple answer - no. Sounds like the beginnings of a good house rule, tho!

Guardian

------------------------------------------------------------------------------
"Any sufficiently advanced magic is indestinguishable from technology.
So there."
Adam Treloar aka Guardian
s777317@*****.student.gu.edu.au http://www.geocities.com/TimesSquare/1900/
------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Message no. 3
From: Ereskanti <Ereskanti@***.COM>
Subject: Re: RBB 1 vs. RBB 2
Date: Tue, 13 Jan 1998 11:04:47 EST
In a message dated 98-01-13 07:50:55 EST, vanyel@*******.NET writes:

> He also had an idea (which I kinda liked) on how to determine whether or
> not he had any given part available for a project....like he keeps bits and
> pieces of tech around the garage and whenever he needs a part he rolls a
> die vs. a TN (equal to availability of part?). The more NY in stuff he has
> at the garage, the more likely he is to have the part he needs, etc. Is
> anything like this covered in either RBB?

It sounds like your friend has the beginning of what we call here a "Resources
Rating". And what he has available vs. what he does not is really up to the
two you. Neither book gives much on the way of availability, other than the
table, which gives a target number but not really any information on what it's
really good for.

Is R2 worth it? IMHO, yes, it is, if for nothing more a set of rules
(working, not necessarily realistic) concerning Sensors and Countermeasures.
However, if your friend and fellow player does not like reading, then R2
could, repeat -could- be a waste of money, as it takes someone who wants to
read for fun IMHO.

Also, it's worth it because of the design and modification rules are, IMHO,
far superior than those in RBB. There are a few things that for whatever
reason didn't survive it to the new book (like reduced component parts), but
they can be easily converted using a variety of options.

> Thanks!

Sure things
-K
Message no. 4
From: Lehlan Decker <decker@****.FSU.EDU>
Subject: Re: RBB 1 vs. RBB 2
Date: Tue, 13 Jan 1998 11:21:07 -0500
On Tue, Jan 13, 1998 at 07:52:24AM -0500, Justin Pinnow wrote:
> Hi folks,
>
> One of my players wants to play a rigger, and I wanted to know of your
> opinions about both RBB books. Which is better? Which runs smoother? He
> owns RBB1, but would it be worth running out and buying RBB2?
>
> He also had an idea (which I kinda liked) on how to determine whether or
> not he had any given part available for a project....like he keeps bits and
> pieces of tech around the garage and whenever he needs a part he rolls a
> die vs. a TN (equal to availability of part?). The more NY in stuff he has
> at the garage, the more likely he is to have the part he needs, etc. Is
> anything like this covered in either RBB?
>
I'd go with R2, or if you don't want to spend the loot, snag a copy
of Jane's Registry. Both are a better set of rules, and the game
runs smoother.
Rigger two includes some cool stuff for rigger controlled systems,
drones, etc.
Nothing like that rules is in either book. I would just chock
it up to roleplaying, and occasinally role the dice, if he wanted
to say find a turbo charged engine just lying around. :)



--
--------------------------------------------------------------------
Lehlan Decker 644-4534 Systems Development
decker@****.fsu.edu http://www.scri.fsu.edu/~decker
--------------------------------------------------------------------
Some people are alive, only because its illegal to kill them.
Message no. 5
From: Frank Pelletier <jeanpell@****.IVIC.QC.CA>
Subject: Re: RBB 1 vs. RBB 2
Date: Tue, 13 Jan 1998 12:01:16 +0000
Justin Pinnow <vanyel@*******.NET> once wrote,

> Hi folks,
>
> One of my players wants to play a rigger, and I wanted to know of your
> opinions about both RBB books. Which is better? Which runs smoother? He
> owns RBB1, but would it be worth running out and buying RBB2?

Obviously, the original RBB accomplished everything a rigger would ever
want to do. RBB2 is nothing more than a pathetic attempt to put the
rigger on the same level as the decker i.e. With his own set of special
rules, and that same "Stay in the car, don't do nothing, I'm driving now"
feeling that decker characters gave other players (note that stupid,
stupid, no-offensive-actions-by passengers rules...read it, I beg you.
It's evil.). Other than the vehicle customization rules, R2 ain't worth
much. Even the fiction is kinda lame. RBB gave you simple rules, simple
rolls, no-nonsense vehicle combat resolution, not that
ECCM-ECM-ECCCCM-ELM-KLM-KFMDM-whatever bullshit.

(and yes, I bought R2, so I's knows what I's talkin' 'bout)

Stick to RBB1, IMHO...it'll save you mucho reading and mucho heartbreak.

> He also had an idea (which I kinda liked) on how to determine whether or
> not he had any given part available for a project....like he keeps bits and
> pieces of tech around the garage and whenever he needs a part he rolls a
> die vs. a TN (equal to availability of part?). The more NY in stuff he has
> at the garage, the more likely he is to have the part he needs, etc. Is
> anything like this covered in either RBB?

Not as far as I know (both in RBB1 and RBB2) but that's a great idea.
Since most projects take a lot of different parts, I'd think that lowering
the availability to reflect the ammount of on-hand parts if cool. But not
by much, IMHO. You wouldn't want a rigger to build an Appalooza out of 20
Chevy engines, neh?

Salutations

Trinity
------------------------------------------------------
Frank Pelletier
Trinity@********.com, jeanpell@****.qc.ca

"Life is a blur"
Message no. 6
From: Kevin R Mohondro <mohkev@******.COM>
Subject: Re: RBB 1 vs. RBB 2
Date: Tue, 13 Jan 1998 12:10:55 -0800
On Tue, Jan 13, 1998 at 07:52:24AM -0500, Justin Pinnow wrote:
> Hi folks,
>
> One of my players wants to play a rigger, and I wanted to know of your
> opinions about both RBB books. Which is better? Which runs smoother?
He
> owns RBB1, but would it be worth running out and buying RBB2?

[SNIP]

I've got a similar question...I've been looking for the RBB2 and from what
most of you have said, I will most likely incorporate it into my game.
However (the question), I've got a rigger player in my game and I'd like
to know how easy is it to move from RBB to RBB2. Have the rules changed so
much that a whole new system needs to be learned? Do we have to retrofit
the current rigger?

--
-Moe
--------------------------------------------------------------------------
Kevin R Mohondro mohkev@******.com
Software Engineer
SalePoint/Retail Interact (619) 552-2026
Message no. 7
From: James Paul Morgan <jpmorgan@***.EDU>
Subject: Re: RBB 1 vs. RBB 2
Date: Tue, 13 Jan 1998 13:24:45 -0700
On Tue, 13 Jan 1998, Kevin R Mohondro wrote:

> However (the question), I've got a rigger player in my game and I'd like
> to know how easy is it to move from RBB to RBB2. Have the rules changed so
> much that a whole new system needs to be learned? Do we have to retrofit
> the current rigger?
>

Get a calculator, some paper, and a bunch of time. What we found to be
the easiest for our rigger was to rebuild all of his vehicles under the
new rules. Too many modifications, such as body increase, were either not
available or not the same. Also, you need the total cost for such things
as repairs.

Well, not totally from scratch. They've already converted all of the old
vehicles over. So, as long as the drone or vehicle came out of one of the
SR books, it will be listed in R2.

However, some of the old vehicles just aren't possible under the new
rules, especially ones with heavy armor. You cannot load down a bike or
sports car with umpteen points of armor and still have it move. (Which is
a good thing, actually.)


For more normal vehicles, the conversion is very easy. Just start with
the new version from the back of R2 and then add in the extras like alarm
and such. Then you've got your new car.


See ya around the Mulberry bush.

--James
(Mission Specialist for the Ventrue on Mars project.)

:)
Message no. 8
From: Lehlan Decker <decker@****.FSU.EDU>
Subject: Re: RBB 1 vs. RBB 2
Date: Tue, 13 Jan 1998 15:25:34 -0500
On Tue, Jan 13, 1998 at 12:10:55PM -0800, Kevin R Mohondro wrote:
> On Tue, Jan 13, 1998 at 07:52:24AM -0500, Justin Pinnow wrote:
> > Hi folks,
> >
> > One of my players wants to play a rigger, and I wanted to know of your
> > opinions about both RBB books. Which is better? Which runs smoother?
> He
> > owns RBB1, but would it be worth running out and buying RBB2?
>
> [SNIP]
>
> I've got a similar question...I've been looking for the RBB2 and from what
> most of you have said, I will most likely incorporate it into my game.
> However (the question), I've got a rigger player in my game and I'd like
> to know how easy is it to move from RBB to RBB2. Have the rules changed so
> much that a whole new system needs to be learned? Do we have to retrofit
> the current rigger?
>

Yes and No. Riggers are still riggers with a VCR. They do have
several new toys you can buy however. Combat, driving, etc
is all revised. So your characters will fit fine, and stats are
provided for all vechicles currently published. You may have to
redesign a custom made vechicle, but that depends on your GM.
There are lots of charts and modifiers, and it seems daunting but
the system works fairly well once you get into it.


--
--------------------------------------------------------------------
Lehlan Decker 644-4534 Systems Development
decker@****.fsu.edu http://www.scri.fsu.edu/~decker
--------------------------------------------------------------------
Some people are alive, only because its illegal to kill them.
Message no. 9
From: Gurth <gurth@******.NL>
Subject: Re: RBB 1 vs. RBB 2
Date: Wed, 14 Jan 1998 11:43:55 +0100
Kevin R Mohondro said on 12:10/13 Jan 98...

> However (the question), I've got a rigger player in my game and I'd like
> to know how easy is it to move from RBB to RBB2. Have the rules changed so
> much that a whole new system needs to be learned?

Yes. It'll require learning a bunch of new rules that don't have all that
much to do with the old ones, though they appear to be partly based on
them.

> Do we have to retrofit the current rigger?

Not really. You may have to make some adjustments to vehicle stats (mainly
recalculate those of heavily modified vehicles) but apart from those old
characters just fall into the new system, unlike deckers with VR 2.0.

--
Gurth@******.nl - http://www.xs4all.nl/~gurth/index.html - UIN5044116
Round here, hey man, I got a lot of time...
-> NERPS Project Leader & Unofficial Shadowrun Guru <-
-> The Plastic Warriors Page: http://www.xs4all.nl/~gurth/plastic.html <-
-> The New Character Mortuary: http://www.electricferret.com/mortuary/ <-

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Message no. 10
From: James Lindsay <jlindsay@******.CA>
Subject: Re: RBB 1 vs. RBB 2
Date: Wed, 14 Jan 1998 15:13:55 GMT
On Tue, 13 Jan 1998 13:24:45 -0700, James Paul Morgan wrote:


> However, some of the old vehicles just aren't possible under the new
> rules, especially ones with heavy armor. You cannot load down a bike or
> sports car with umpteen points of armor and still have it move. (Which is
> a good thing, actually.)

Yes and no. If you were armouring a real life vehicle against real life
weaponry, I think R2 is a bit too strict when it comes to adding armour (3
CF for one point of "concealed" armour is A LOT of space for what Shadowrun
defines as the equivalent barrier rating of, what, glass?). It works ok
using Shadowrun physics, I guess.

What I really would have liked to see was component armour, so that you
could, as an example, armour just the engine and passenger compartment. It
would save on weight and defend against most debilitating attacks, as
opposed to the Saab Dynamit armoured up like a Brinks armoured truck.



James W. Lindsay Vancouver, British Columbia
"http://www.prosperoimaging.com/ground_zero";

Money talks... it usually says "bend over"...
Message no. 11
From: James Lindsay <jlindsay@******.CA>
Subject: Re: RBB 1 vs. RBB 2
Date: Wed, 14 Jan 1998 15:13:53 GMT
On Tue, 13 Jan 1998 11:21:07 -0500, Lehlan Decker wrote:

> On Tue, Jan 13, 1998 at 07:52:24AM -0500, Justin Pinnow wrote:
> > Hi folks,
> >
> > One of my players wants to play a rigger, and I wanted to know of your
> > opinions about both RBB books. Which is better? Which runs smoother? He
> > owns RBB1, but would it be worth running out and buying RBB2?
> >
> > He also had an idea (which I kinda liked) on how to determine whether or
> > not he had any given part available for a project....like he keeps bits and
> > pieces of tech around the garage and whenever he needs a part he rolls a
> > die vs. a TN (equal to availability of part?). The more NY in stuff he has
> > at the garage, the more likely he is to have the part he needs, etc. Is
> > anything like this covered in either RBB?
> >
> I'd go with R2, or if you don't want to spend the loot, snag a copy
> of Jane's Registry. Both are a better set of rules, and the game
> runs smoother.
> Rigger two includes some cool stuff for rigger controlled systems,
> drones, etc.
> Nothing like that rules is in either book. I would just chock
> it up to roleplaying, and occasinally role the dice, if he wanted
> to say find a turbo charged engine just lying around. :)

Jane's Rigger Registry is available on Paolo's site and on mine (see URL
below). It is a modified and updated version of RBB1 that may be worth a
look before you go out and buy R2 (which is also a good book, due to it's
superior vehicle design section, drone rules, etc.). I've been meaning to
update JRR to v1.0 (it's currently v0.9) and include a few changes and some
additional ideas but can't seem to get past adding notes to my current hard
copy. When it's done I'll post a notice on the list.



James W. Lindsay Vancouver, British Columbia
"http://www.prosperoimaging.com/ground_zero";

Money talks... it usually says "bend over"...
Message no. 12
From: Mon goose <landsquid@*******.COM>
Subject: Re: RBB 1 vs. RBB 2
Date: Wed, 14 Jan 1998 11:13:00 PST
>> Do we have to retrofit the current rigger?
>
>Not really. You may have to make some adjustments to vehicle stats
(mainly recalculate those of heavily modified vehicles) but apart from
those old characters just fall into the new system, unlike deckers with
VR 2.0.
>

Also, depending on how far you plan to go bringin in things lie E-war,
there is some gear your Rigger would be hard pressed to do without,
mostly deck improvements. But those are all "Advanced Vehicle Rules"-
which covers about 1/2 of the book!

Mongoose / Technological progress is like an ax in the hands
of a psychotic - Einstein

get sucked into -The Vortex- Chicago's shadowland BBS
http://www.concentric.net/~evamarie/srmain.htm


______________________________________________________
Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com
Message no. 13
From: Barbie <barbie@**********.COM>
Subject: Re: RBB 1 vs. RBB 2
Date: Fri, 16 Jan 1998 19:37:46 +0100
At 13-Jan-98 wrote Frank Pelletier:

[snip]

>Stick to RBB1, IMHO...it'll save you mucho reading and mucho heartbreak.

[snip]

Exactly my saying.

--

Barbie
---------------------------------------------------------------
Did you know what a rhinoceros is?
All that is left from the unicorn.

http://www.amigaworld.com/barbie
FAQ keeper of SR_D, the german Shadowrun mailing list.
Amiga RC5 Team effort member.
---------------------------------------------------------------
Message no. 14
From: Zixx <t_berghoff@*********.NETSURF.DE>
Subject: Re: RBB 1 vs. RBB 2
Date: Sat, 17 Jan 1998 17:46:51 +0000
On 13 Jan 98 at 12:01, Frank Pelletier wrote:


> > One of my players wants to play a rigger, and I wanted to know of your
> > opinions about both RBB books. Which is better? Which runs smoother? He
> > owns RBB1, but would it be worth running out and buying RBB2?
>
> Obviously, the original RBB accomplished everything a rigger would ever
> want to do. RBB2 is nothing more than a pathetic attempt to put the
> rigger on the same level as the decker i.e. With his own set of special
> rules, and that same "Stay in the car, don't do nothing, I'm driving now"
> feeling that decker characters gave other players (note that stupid,
> stupid, no-offensive-actions-by passengers rules...read it, I beg you.
> It's evil.).

Depends. It's nice noth to have six sammys in a Jackrabit that fire enough
bullets to kill a tank, but if it doesn't fit - as always- ignore it. I do.



> Other than the vehicle customization rules, R2 ain't worth
> much. Even the fiction is kinda lame. RBB gave you simple rules, simple
> rolls, no-nonsense vehicle combat resolution, not that
> ECCM-ECM-ECCCCM-ELM-KLM-KFMDM-whatever bullshit.

KLF, anyone? :)
Anyway: the RBB rules always seemed rather bogus to me. Especially the
ECM/ECCM-part. I mean if I activate an ECM-device, I'm not actually making
myself invisible. It's more like setting off a nuke to hide in the flash.
With ED, there is no such problem. ANd the combat rules really aren't as
bad as they look. During playing, the are actually pretty fast, as long as
you have all the charts on one paper (or two).



Tobias Berghoff a.k.a Zixx a.k.a. Charon, your friendly werepanther physad.

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