Back to the main page

Mailing List Logs for ShadowRN

Message no. 1
From: Nilo Nolasco <nilo@*******.COM>
Subject: Realistic Autofire Rates
Date: Wed, 9 Aug 1995 01:19:46 -0600
I have just started using the rules on Covering/Suppression Fire
described in the FoF. What I decided in my campaign is to make autofire
much deadlier, but SURPRISINGLY survibable. Whenever a PC or an NPC of
mine fires full-auto, he no longer aims at a target but sprays down a
specified number of meters. One can still decide to cover an area with
lead when using the other modes, but some modes of fire are better suited
than others. Sure, you decide to suppress a 6 meter area with an Ares
Predator II; it's even better with an Uzi III (which always fires in burst
mode) - but my house rules makes it deadly to be in that 3 meter area if
I start it down with an assualt rifle or LMG on FA.
First off all, they determine how many rounds are fired from the
weapon in FA - normally, it's 3D6 rounds and 6D6 for miniguns and those
snazzy super-light machine guns in FoF. Then they decide how wide an
area they want to spray at - up to Quicknes+6 in meters all the way down
to just 1 meter (perfect for dusting off an unfortunate PC or NPC). So
let's say we want to shoot at a 3 meter area, left to right with an
Ingram Valiant. Mr. Unfortunate as we will call him stands in the middle
of the area, say 2 meters away from where we will start shooting. I roll
3D6 to see how many rounds I fire - let's say 12. If I am well skilled
in Firearms, I should be able to keep my aim at the target itself and be
able to hit him with at least one bullet. For every 2 skill points past 4
in my Firearms (or the appropriate Concentration or Specialization), one
round hits the target. 12 rounds covering a 3 meter area equals 4 rounds
per meter! Because we are spreading a good amount of fire in a small
area, it's only +1 to recoil per bullet after the first PER meter - or +3
to recoil for each meter in my example. As stated in FoF, FA rounds take
10 action phases to cover an area. My initiative is 12, and I should be
able to cover that 3 meter area by my next action which is 2. SO, if Mr.
U is to go next at 11, he could dive outa the way of my fire but hence,
his name he goes at 5 and has no chance whatsoever. My Firearms is 6 so
I atuomatically hit him with 1 round, and I roll a D6 for every other
bullet going in his direction which is 3. As in FoF, the base target
number is 4 plus any appropriate modifiers. Mr. U did not take any
cover, the room is well lit and stands frozen in my presence (which would
be TN 3). Lucky me, I don't roll any ones and hit him with 4 rounds and
all the rest of the rounds wrecks havoc on drywall (if I would have
rolled any 7s, that particular round hits something vital - sort off a
random called shot, +4 to TN). NOW, he makes a Body resistance test not at
11D but he makes 4(!) seperate Body resistance tests at 7S. Lucky for
Mr. U, he's wearing vest with plates so he resists EACH bullet at 3S
instead. BUT, he's only got 4 Body and 6 dice left from Combat Pool so
is looks like splat city for Mr. U.
With this added flavor to FA in Shadowrun, I found my NPCs
shooting FA most of the time, if they have a decent Firearms skill OR
simply for more added nastiness to my campign. With assualt rifles, most
of my runners are able to survive as long as they keep their heads down
and look for cover. Our rigger had the most fun with it since his
Westwind was equipped with a Vindicator minigun and cranking up to an
average of 25 rounds every time he went. Lucky for me, he wasn't
shooting at my NPC sec guards but at their perimeter fence. I would hate
hate to find out if he concerntrated his fire on one guy!
I would much appreciate any comments, suggestions anyone would
wish to add. I would like to make this more effective for PCs who use
Smartlink II which I think would aid your line of fire in FA. Happy SRing!

NN
Message no. 2
From: Damion Milliken <adm82@***.EDU.AU>
Subject: Re: Realistic Autofire Rates
Date: Wed, 9 Aug 1995 19:42:14 +1000
Nilo Nolasco writes:

> What I decided in my campaign is to make autofire much deadlier, but
> SURPRISINGLY survibable. Whenever a PC or an NPC of mine fires full-auto,
> he no longer aims at a target but sprays down a specified number of meters.

So far it sounds good, much better than the SR rules. Are you going to
replace both kinds of SR rules with this rule? Or are you just replacing the
FoF covering fire rule, and keeping the normal SR rule?

> First off all, they determine how many rounds are fired from the
> weapon in FA - normally, it's 3D6 rounds and 6D6 for miniguns and those
> snazzy super-light machine guns in FoF.

A bit random for my tastes, I'm told it isn't _that_ difficult to choose the
number of rounds you fire (well, it probably would be from something like a
minigun).

> Then they decide how wide an area they want to spray at - up to Quicknes+6
> in meters all the way down to just 1 meter (perfect for dusting off an
> unfortunate PC or NPC).

Yeah, sounds good.

> If I am well skilled in Firearms, I should be able to keep my aim at the
> target itself and be able to hit him with at least one bullet. For every 2
> skill points past 4 in my Firearms (or the appropriate Concentration or
> Specialization), one round hits the target.

Sounds a little arbitrary to me. I wouldn't think someone with a good skill
would hit _every_ single time with at least one round, regardless of the
situation. It's just a little unreaslistic.

> Because we are spreading a good amount of fire in a small area, it's only
> +1 to recoil per bullet after the first PER meter - or +3 to recoil for each
> meter in my example.

I fail to see where this +3 figure ever figures into the equation again. You
pull it out of ther air here (and I don't really see the reasoning for such
a decision either), and then it's never used again.

> Lucky me, I don't roll any ones and hit him with 4 rounds and all the rest
> of the rounds wrecks havoc on drywall

Any one's? I thought your TN was 3?

> (if I would have rolled any 7s, that particular round hits something vital
> - sort off a random called shot, +4 to TN).

This rule I don't like. Unless you also rule that with a normal shot, if you
exceed the TN by 4, then you also get the "critical hit" for free. After
all, when you actually shoot at _someone_, then you'd be an awful lot more
likely to hit a vital part than if you just spray an area. So why should
area spray get some bonus that direct fire doesn't?

> NOW, he makes a Body resistance test not at 11D but he makes 4(!) seperate
> Body resistance tests at 7S.

This is a fair enough rule. But it makes for two things in my view. Too much
dice rolling firstly. And too deadly autofire secondly. (Not that the second
is all that bad an idea, I just don't like it all that much.) Other than
those objections I can't see a problem with it.

Sorry if I seem overly critical, I didn't intentionally mean to be, and
smileys aren't exactly appropriate where there's no humour. :-)

--
Damion Milliken University of Wollongong E-mail: adm82@***.edu.au

(GEEK CODE 2.1) GE -d+@ H s++:-- !g p0 !au a19 w+ v(?) C++ US++>+++ P+ L !3
E? N K- W M@ !V po@ Y+ t+ 5 !j R+(++) G(+)('''') !tv(--@)
b++ D B? e+$ u@ h* f+ !r n----(--)@ !y+
Message no. 3
From: Ioannis Pantelidis <jpante@******.COMPULINK.GR>
Subject: Re: Realistic Autofire Rates
Date: Wed, 9 Aug 1995 15:01:57 +0300
about autofire I think that when a character uses autofire he just throw
7 bullets the one behind the other so when the bullets hit the target the
area they cover is only 2 cm^2 but when someone fire supression fire he
fire to a very big area. this might help you to understasnd what is
autofire anfd what is supresion fire
Message no. 4
From: Nilo Nolasco <nilo@*******.COM>
Subject: Re: Realistic Autofire Rates
Date: Wed, 9 Aug 1995 12:15:02 -0600
On Wed, 9 Aug 1995, Damion Milliken wrote:
> > SURPRISINGLY survibable. Whenever a PC or an NPC of mine fires full-auto,
> > he no longer aims at a target but sprays down a specified number of meters.
> replace both kinds of SR rules with this rule? Or are you just replacing the
> FoF covering fire rule, and keeping the normal SR rule?

More so with the rules on autofire discussed in FoF.

> > weapon in FA - normally, it's 3D6 rounds and 6D6 for miniguns and those
> > snazzy super-light machine guns in FoF.
> A bit random for my tastes, I'm told it isn't _that_ difficult to choose the
> number of rounds you fire (well, it probably would be from something like a
> minigun).

I feel that unlike the other modes of fire such as SA or BF, FA
is rather uncontrolled. I HAVE never had the oppurtunity to shoot a
weapon capable of autofire (such things are illegal in Canada) but from
what I'm told, you can control how much ammo one with the proper amount
of training - however, you still consume a lot of rounds in FA and accuracy
is still a problem due to the amount of rounds being shot. This could be
a game balance rule for my campaign for I tend to have too many PCs
running around with belted rounds.

> > target itself and be able to hit him with at least one bullet. For every 2
> > skill points past 4 in my Firearms (or the appropriate Concentration or
> > Specialization), one round hits the target.
> Sounds a little arbitrary to me. I wouldn't think someone with a good skill
> would hit _every_ single time with at least one round, regardless of the
> situation. It's just a little unreaslistic.

Could be. Not every single time, maybe when they roll a D6 for
every bullet for that meter - I lower the TN for one of the rounds (or
more depending on his Firearms skill).

> > +1 to recoil per bullet after the first PER meter - or +3 to recoil for each
> > meter in my example.
> I fail to see where this +3 figure ever figures into the equation again. You
> pull it out of ther air here (and I don't really see the reasoning for such

Each meter is like one separate target, but since you are only
spraying down that area and MR. U is the REAL target, you work out the
recoil modifiers on him. The shooter would tighten his aim on the target
himself and since you are shooting 4 rounds into each meter, it's a +3 to
recoil. If somebody was beside Mr. U, it would be the same recoil
modifier +2 because of the additional target. At least that's how I've
done recoil for the past couple of years...

> > Lucky me, I don't roll any ones and hit him with 4 rounds and all the rest
> Any one's? I thought your TN was 3?

There are two seprate rolls, your skill roll to possible stage up
damage (or if you hit him AT ALL) and to determine how many rounds hit a
target. It would have been a TN 4 plus 3 for recoil minus one for Mr. U
just standing there unmoving which equals 6 for my Firearms skill. A TN
3 for my 4D6 roll (no cover, he ain't moving which would be -1 to the TN)
for the four rounds.

> > - sort off a random called shot, +4 to TN).
> This rule I don't like. Unless you also rule that with a normal shot, if you
> exceed the TN by 4, then you also get the "critical hit" for free. After

Besides making FA more cinematic, flying lead is not all that
exactly selective. It'll more like hit the torso than any vital part but
there is a slight chance where it might hit the arms, legs, head, GRION
(OUCH!).

> > NOW, he makes a Body resistance test not at 11D but he makes 4(!) seperate
> > Body resistance tests at 7S.
> This is a fair enough rule. But it makes for two things in my view. Too much
> dice rolling firstly. And too deadly autofire secondly. (Not that the second

That I noticed slows down my combat turns, especially when our
rigger started shooting (meta)human targets with his minigun. Took him
nearly 15 minutes when he sprayed a 10 meter area with his minigun. I
would like to mmake this easier in some way, rolling a 25D6 to see what
hit or what didn't, the Body test to resist each rtound became almost
redundant. Yet the lethality felt right somehow. :>

NN
Message no. 5
From: Glenn Robertson <GLENN.ROBERTSON@***.EDU>
Subject: Re: Realistic Autofire Rates
Date: Wed, 9 Aug 1995 11:48:19 -0700
> If I am well skilled
> in Firearms, I should be able to keep my aim at the target itself and be
> able to hit him with at least one bullet. For every 2 skill points past 4
> in my Firearms (or the appropriate Concentration or Specialization), one
> round hits the target.
Being a person that has fired FA myself, I don't find this very
realistic. When firing FA, your most accurate shots are the first
couple. After that it is widespread hosing down. You still direct fire
somewhat, but not that well. So, if you are going left to right or what
have you, by the time you drag your spray of lead to the target, you
wouldn't be that accurate, and wouldn't be guaranteed the automatic hit.
Especially since walking the fire doesn't constitute keeping your aim at
the target.

Just sharing an observation, no offense intended.

Glenn
Message no. 6
From: Peter Bailey <pbailey@*****.IPSWICHCITY.QLD.GOV.AU>
Subject: Re: Realistic Autofire Rates
Date: Thu, 10 Aug 1995 13:59:22 +0200
-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----

> about autofire I think that when a character uses autofire he just th=
row
> 7 bullets the one behind the other so when the bullets hit the target=
the
> area they cover is only 2 cm^2 but when someone fire supression fire =
he
> fire to a very big area. this might help you to understasnd what is
> autofire anfd what is supresion fire

Close, no cigar. Autofire under the shadowrun rules means you are tryin=
g to
_aim_ a weapon that's spitting lead like there's no tomorrow. As anyone
will tell you that's fired a machine gun, they are _designed_ to spray =
that
lead around. A machine gun is inherently inaccurate. Supressive fire me=
ans
you are _guiding_ a stream of lead into a general _area_. (Note; Autofi=
re =
Aim, Suppressive fire = guide) This of course means that anyone fooli=
sh
enough to put something soft into the area where the stream of lead is
flying, is likely to get it hit by one or more of the said bits of lead=
.

-----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE-----
Version: 2.6ui (Amiga)

iQBFAgUBMCtc4FEe8TY+oxZ5AQHmCwF/dE5g8ydOdvIJemYgQPAID+rNOMEh6oxp
fvcNrNdjsKStC/NbxZM4za3XDu7qgzNf
=2BTl
-----END PGP SIGNATURE-----
Message no. 7
From: Damion Milliken <adm82@***.EDU.AU>
Subject: Re: Realistic Autofire Rates
Date: Mon, 14 Aug 1995 14:14:29 +1000
Nilo Nolasco writes:

> > I fail to see where this +3 figure ever figures into the equation again.
> > You pull it out of ther air here (and I don't really see the reasoning
>
> Each meter is like one separate target, but since you are only
> spraying down that area and MR. U is the REAL target, you work out the
> recoil modifiers on him.

Aha, makes sense.

> The shooter would tighten his aim on the target himself

Erh, in that case it isn't simple area covering fire anymore then. It's
regular "aimed" autofire. I though the idea of covering fire was to equally
spray down an entire area, not to equally spray down an entire area, but
concentrate on the target.

> and since you are shooting 4 rounds into each meter, it's a +3 to recoil.

+3? How come? 4 rounds=+4, unles you make the first round out of the gun
recoiless (as seems logical), in which case the _first_ 1m area would have
+3, but the rest +4.

> If somebody was beside Mr. U, it would be the same recoil modifier +2
> because of the additional target. At least that's how I've done recoil for
> the past couple of years...

Normal recoil, yes, that's right. But this is simply spraying down an area,
not shooting at particular targets. The idea is that you'll have just as
much chance of hitting either of the targets as the other, so long as they
are both in the area being sprayed down. The +2 modifier is for "aimed"
autofire, where you are trying to hit a particular target.

> > This rule I don't like. Unless you also rule that with a normal shot, if
> > you exceed the TN by 4, then you also get the "critical hit" for free.
>
> Besides making FA more cinematic, flying lead is not all that
> exactly selective. It'll more like hit the torso than any vital part but
> there is a slight chance where it might hit the arms, legs, head, GRION
> (OUCH!).

Yeah, and...? The rule makes sense only as long as you also apply it for any
other shot someone makes at someone else (or themselves if they really want
to...) too.

The rest of the rules I agree with, however.

--
Damion Milliken University of Wollongong E-mail: adm82@***.edu.au

(GEEK CODE 2.1) GE -d+@ H s++:-- !g p0 !au a19 w+ v(?) C++ US++>+++ P+ L !3
E? N K- W M@ !V po@ Y+ t+ 5 !j R+(++) G(+)('''') !tv(--@)
b++ D B? e+$ u@ h* f+ !r n----(--)@ !y+

Further Reading

If you enjoyed reading about Realistic Autofire Rates, you may also be interested in:

Disclaimer

These messages were posted a long time ago on a mailing list far, far away. The copyright to their contents probably lies with the original authors of the individual messages, but since they were published in an electronic forum that anyone could subscribe to, and the logs were available to subscribers and most likely non-subscribers as well, it's felt that re-publishing them here is a kind of public service.