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Message no. 1
From: Hamish Laws <h_laws@**********.UTAS.EDU.AU>
Subject: Realistic Magic
Date: Tue, 26 Jul 1994 17:17:07 +1000
How can anyone argue that a magic system is realistic when it
allows people to throw fireballs, render themselves invisible, blow up
fragging planes....?
As far as I know there is no reproducable evidence to support the
supposition that any of this is possible. I know that if I could do even
one percent of the stuff a Shadowrun Mage can in this, the real world, I
would be exceedingly rich by rigging lotto results, roulette wheels. The
only thing which could be stopping mages doing this is a seense of ethics
shared by all of them which prevents the "misuse of power" and, considering
what the shadowrunners do this obviously hasn't been passed on.
Also it is worth asking why, if the shadowrun magic system, is
realistic, mages have never ruled the world and witches were easily killed
by unwashed mobs.


*************************************************
There has to be an optimist around here somewhere
*************************************************

Hamish Laws
Message no. 2
From: Eve Forward <ez019741@****.UCDAVIS.EDU>
Subject: Re: Realistic Magic
Date: Tue, 26 Jul 1994 04:34:40 -0700
Hamish says:

> Also it is worth asking why, if the shadowrun magic system, is
>realistic, mages have never ruled the world and witches were easily killed

I think "realistic" is being used in this discussion, not so much in the
sense of shaodwrun-type magic being 'real', as the following;

1) There are people now (and have been in the past) who claim to practice
"magic". Examples; many pagan religions, voodoo practicioners, occultists,
"Satanists", New-Age Crystal Healer types, spirit mediums, etc.

2) Most of these practices have ways of doing things, be they traditions,
religious rites, philosphies, or ideas and methods set down by practicioners
in the past.

3) The Shadowrun game is set in "the real world" of the future; it's assumed
that cyberware is available in 2054, and it's assumed that magic works. The
desginers of the game could just have made up some wild AD&D type system
for magic, but instead they decided to base it on "real" magic; the various
ideas and stuff that some people believe today.

Now, admittedly, they've expanded a few things, for game reasons. No magician
types (that I know of) today can throw fireballs, of course. There's no
method for throwing fireballs, etc, because it's "impossible". Shadowrun
deals with, among other things, the return of magic to the world; i.e.,
suddenly things which were once impossible are now possible; old spells
and methods that haven't worked suddenly begin working. It's sort of like
being a Christian and suddenly everything you pray for, you get.
So, in this example, writing down all the Christian hymns and
ceremonies etc aas the basis for a game mechanic would be "realistic", since
it's based on something we have now. Whether or not all your prayers come
true is, however, probably not so "realistic", but it works as far as a
game is concerned.

No offense meant to any Christians, pagans, voodoo practicioners or anything
else.

-E
Message no. 3
From: Ivy Ryan <ivyryan@***.ORG>
Subject: Re: Realistic Magic
Date: Tue, 26 Jul 1994 11:07:44 -0700
Well Hamish, let's take it a step at a time...

On Tue, 26 Jul 1994, Hamish Laws wrote:

> How can anyone argue that a magic system is realistic when it
> allows people to throw fireballs, render themselves invisible, blow up
> fragging planes....?

As far as my training goes (30 years experience) this is how magic WOULD
work if it worked at all. It obviously doesn't right now. My religion,
like the Mayan's, does expect that magic will return in the time frome of
2005 to 2015. There is also an ancient chinese calendar that also calls
for it's return in the same time frame... I'm hoping, but not really
expecting, if you know what I mean.

> As far as I know there is no reproducable evidence to support the
> supposition that any of this is possible.

Yup, as yet there are no reproducable results... This could change.

I know that if I could do even
> one percent of the stuff a Shadowrun Mage can in this, the real world, I
> would be exceedingly rich by rigging lotto results, roulette wheels. The
> only thing which could be stopping mages doing this is a seense of ethics
> shared by all of them which prevents the "misuse of power" and, considering
> what the shadowrunners do this obviously hasn't been passed on.

Nope, it sure hasn't. But if magic did work I bet that this "system of
Ethics" would go by the board for every mage too.

> Also it is worth asking why, if the shadowrun magic system, is
> realistic, mages have never ruled the world and witches were easily killed
> by unwashed mobs.

Magic stopped working around 7,000 years ago, according to all three
calendars. Without magic the mages couldn't defend themselves. And the
witches never had a chance. Personally, I hope it comes back, the deaths
of millions still call to me, but that's simply me, and my religion. And
I honestly find it hard to believe that it will come back.

But SRII is very accurate as to how it will work if it ever does. That
is why I call it a realistic magic system.

I'm an optomist, y'see.

Ivy
Message no. 4
From: Tim Skirvin <tskirvin@********.UNI.UIUC.EDU>
Subject: Re: Realistic Magic
Date: Tue, 26 Jul 1994 19:51:39 -0500
> Also it is worth asking why, if the shadowrun magic system,
> is realistic, mages have never ruled the world and witches were
> easily killed by unwashed mobs.

Mages HAVE ruled the world. It's called Earthdawn.

(Adepts, fine, if you want to be picky.)

As for witches, when they existed in quantity it was a non-magical
time. That's why they didn't have many powers...

-------------Tim Skirvin (tskirvin@********.uni.uiuc.edu-------------
"He's NOT a gibbering idiot - he's cured of gibbering, he's just an
idiot now." -- Jane, "Waiting for God"
Message no. 5
From: Hamish Laws <h_laws@**********.UTAS.EDU.AU>
Subject: Re: Realistic Magic
Date: Thu, 28 Jul 1994 08:53:00 +0700
Ivy Wrote
>Well Hamish, let's take it a step at a time...

Pwease do, (giggle)

>
>On Tue, 26 Jul 1994, Hamish Laws wrote:
>
>> How can anyone argue that a magic system is realistic when it
>> allows people to throw fireballs, render themselves invisible, blow up
>> fragging planes....?
>
>As far as my training goes (30 years experience) this is how magic WOULD
>work if it worked at all. It obviously doesn't right now. My religion,
>like the Mayan's, does expect that magic will return in the time frome of
>2005 to 2015. There is also an ancient chinese calendar that also calls
>for it's return in the same time frame... I'm hoping, but not really
>expecting, if you know what I mean.

According to classical aerodynamics it is impossible for a
bumblebee to fly. This has never stopped them doing so and classical
aerodynamics was based on repeated measurements and worked within most
circumstances.
If something which you _believe_ should work doesn't work you are
probably doing it wrong or the basics are incorrect. Also considering the
observed laws of the universe, conservation of most things and (generally)
increasing entrophy it would seem unlikely that magic would be a cyclic
thing.

>> As far as I know there is no reproducable evidence to support the
>> supposition that any of this is possible.
>
>Yup, as yet there are no reproducable results... This could change.

Yes, but if, as you say later in this posting, it was 7000 years ago that
magic last worked surely you cannot really expect that the workings would
have been passed down correctly _if_they_have_no_effect_now look at how
quickly traditional music is dying in the pacific islands and there people
can hear if they are doing it right.
If magic does not work now then people may change it accidently and
have no feedback so that they do not realise they have changed it.

>
>I know that if I could do even
>> one percent of the stuff a Shadowrun Mage can in this, the real world, I
>> would be exceedingly rich by rigging lotto results, roulette wheels. The
>> only thing which could be stopping mages doing this is a seense of ethics
>> shared by all of them which prevents the "misuse of power" and,
considering
>> what the shadowrunners do this obviously hasn't been passed on.
>
>Nope, it sure hasn't. But if magic did work I bet that this "system of
>Ethics" would go by the board for every mage too.

SNIP

>Personally, I hope it comes back, the deaths
>of millions still call to me, but that's simply me, and my religion. And
>I honestly find it hard to believe that it will come back.

I see, you feel that it will be every mage for themselves and want
revenge for the death of people over the last seven thousand years (I
assume this is what you mean by the comment (the deaths of millions still
call to me").
I hope you will forgive me if I do not share this desire for
uncontrolled forces being released by people who fancy they can't be
stopped?
[Btw who's read Sourcery by Terry Pratchett? If Ivy is right this
could become the essential survival guide for the 21st century :) ]
>
>But SRII is very accurate as to how it will work if it ever does. That
>is why I call it a realistic magic system.
>
>I'm an optomist, y'see.

If the above is you idea of optimism I'd hate to see your idea of pessimism.
>
>Ivy


*************************************************
There has to be an optimist around here somewhere
*************************************************

Hamish Laws

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