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Message no. 1
From: "The Kumquat <smirk>" <CRF_BROWNJT@***.CUIS.EDU>
Subject: Re: Real Magick
Date: Tue, 11 Oct 1994 18:51:07 -0500
I would please request that the non-shadowrun thread be taken to
E-mail, I am interested in opinions regarding magic, as I am an amateur
occultist, and I have done MUCH research regarding the topic. One
Clarification before we all go to E-mail on this one though, and thwap me with
a carp if you are just using the reference to piss off and take advantage of
the slight knowledge possessed by MOST Christians, but I must say, as I have
Time and time again, CTHULU DOES NOT EXIST! I love the writings of H.P.
Lovecraft as much as the next gothic horror fan, but to take the Cthulu Mythos
or the fictional Necronomicon as factual occultic texts is ludicrous. Cthulu is
a composite character born out of ancient Sumerian legend, and of Mr.
Lovecraft's own deathly fear of the creatures of the sea. A supposedly serious
Satanist wrote a guideline for worshipping this fictional being, and the most
dedicated of actual occultists take references to Cthulu as the writings of the
inexperienced or unread students, or perhaps just someone who read one too many
comic books. If anyone wishes SERIOUS discussion of ACTUAL Occultic
phenomenon, please E-mail me at CRF_BROWNJT@***.CUIS.edu

Now, back to Shadowrn,
Just My Two Pence
The Kumquat.
Christian Mystic
Message no. 2
From: "David L. Hoff" <DLHOFF@****.WISC.EDU>
Subject: Re: Real Magick
Date: Tue, 11 Oct 1994 19:51:00 CDT
Speaking of the Necronomicon, a friend of mine has a paperback copy of it
(all black, with a silvery "necronomicon" across the front, and a big red
symbol on it), which he uses to scare off Mormons, Jehova's Witnesses, etc.
When they come to the door and ask him if he will read the bible, he says
"sure, if you agree to read my book". When he holds out the book to them,
most of them get kinda pale and leave quickly. One apparently even went so
far as to call him satanist or devil-worshiper or something, then _ran_ out
of the door.

I have to laugh. If a book can scare them so much, they gotta have a hinge
loose somewhere.

--Phoenix
dlhoff@****.wisc.edu
Message no. 3
From: Doctor Doom <jch8169@*******.TAMU.EDU>
Subject: Re: Real Magick
Date: Tue, 11 Oct 1994 22:15:13 -0500
Meine Kameraden:

I must truly raise a voice in protest, albeit not indignantly,
regarding this recent religous diatribe upon the list. I admonish all
the participants not to hypocritically fall afoul of the same trap which
ensares so many an inexperienced believer in stereotyping the individuals
who hail from the opposite end of the religious spectrum. For, verily, we
Christians no more all conform to the intricaties and idiosyncracies of a
single mold than Pagans, Wicca, Atheists, and Agnostics are all identical,
respectively.

No, I shall not now, nor have I in the past accused anyone that
they are destined for firey Perdition. And I am certainly not going to
pummel you with my copy of the Holy Scriptures. Such tactics are
non-productive. As I have often said to my associates, the majority of
which are agnostic, following telling them of my Christianity,

"Previous to any epithets to the likes of "Jesus Freak" or "Bible
Thumper"
are tossed about, have I displayed any such traits in the past? Does my
informing you of my religious alignment change anything? I do not utilize
my religion as a weapon; it is, rather, a topic for discussion should you
be so inclined."

Just as you would not have people assume that you are stepping
onto the Express Elevator to Hell and vailiently attempt to save you,
despite your wishes, I do not wish to be subjected to allegations of the
Medieval, obsolete, deranged, or ridiculous nature of Christianity or
Christians. You would not wish for me to direct similar depreciative
remarks at your beliefs.

Certainly, fanatics are difficult to tolerate at the best of
times. However, Fataticism and Zealotry are encountered in all myriad
manner of manifestations in the schools of Philosophical, Political,
Economic, Social, and Religious thought. Lump them not all within one
category.


Colonel Count von Hohenzollern und von Doom, DMSc, DSc, PhD.

"practicing" Christian

Doom Technologies & Weapon Systems -- Dark Thought Publications
>>> Working on solutions best left in the dark.
<<<
[ Doctor Doom : jch8169@*******.tamu.edu ]
^~^~^~^~^~^~^~^~^~^~^~^~^~^~^~^~^~^~^~^~^~^~^~^~^~^~^~^~^~^~^~^~^~^~^~^~^~^~^~^
"In terms of impact, the gulf between the correct way to express an idea and
the almost correct method of conveyance is not dissimilar to the disparity
betwixt shooting a bullet and throwing it."
-- Doctor Doom
Message no. 4
From: "D.O.A. SECURITY" <MKNABUSCH@****.ALBION.EDU>
Subject: Re: Real Magick
Date: Tue, 11 Oct 1994 23:30:02 -0500
Well said Herr Doctor Doom. But since this thread is supposed to
be dropped, I shall say no more publicly. And I do apologise
if anyone felt I was disparraging their religion in any of my
posts. I don't think I did, and surely it was not my intent.

Michael
aka Harlequin
Message no. 5
From: MILLIKEN DAMION A <u9467882@***.EDU.AU>
Subject: Re: Real Magick
Date: Wed, 12 Oct 1994 13:38:05 +1000
Michael writes:

> Well said Herr Doctor Doom. But since this thread is supposed to
> be dropped, I shall say no more publicly. And I do apologise
> if anyone felt I was disparraging their religion in any of my
> posts. I don't think I did, and surely it was not my intent.

Well, not me you didn't. I even had a good chuckle over what you said, as I
sometimes have to agree with the points raised :-)

--
Damion Milliken University of Wollongong e-mail: u9467882@***.edu.au

Another Closet Christian

(GEEK CODE 2.1) GE -d+(d) H s++:-- !g p? !au a18 w+ v(?) C+(++) US++ P? L !3 E?
N K- W+ M@ !V po@ Y(+) t+ !5 !j R+(++) G(+)('') !tv(--)@ b++ D+
B? e+ u@ h* f(+) !r n--(----) !y+
Message no. 6
From: "Robert A. Hayden" <hayden@*******.MANKATO.MSUS.EDU>
Subject: Re: Real Magick
Date: Wed, 12 Oct 1994 00:13:07 -0500
On Tue, 11 Oct 1994, Doctor Doom wrote:

> Meine Kameraden:

Translation: Yo! Dudes!

> I must truly raise a voice in protest, albeit not indignantly,
> regarding this recent religous diatribe upon the list.

Translation: Yer ticking me off, dudes! :-)

[..rest of Doom's posting deleted for brevity...]

Normall I tend to agree with Doom, even though we come from oppisite ends
of the political and religious spectrum, but this time I need to disagree
with him.

There is interesting social commentary withing this conversation. It
speaks untold volumes abotu not only the world of Shadowrun, but also of
the sociological makeup of some of its players. This is important for
understanding the function of nor only SR society, but also the society
of 1994.

You'll note that in all the "slamming" of religions that have taken place
on this list over the years (I remember a thread on the evils of Buddhism
about a year ago, because Buddhism is too passive :-), there has never
been a condemnation of that relgion, nor has there even been lack of
respect shown. Condemnation of certain aspects, or certain practices IS
social commentary. When people, for example, make fun of "Campus Crusade
for Christ", it isn't slamming Christianity, it is slamming the practices
of a slam group of Christians. Nobody has said that ALL Christians engage
in fire-and-brimstone tactics, not was it implied, what was said is that
SOME Christians engage in behaviour that some consider to be "bad".

GP became angry with me because I made a crack about the word
"practicing". That was not meant as a slam of Wicca, it was a question
about the modern use of the English.

Certainly stereotypes exist. But the intelligence on this list is high
enough to realize that stereotypes are not the rule, but are the
exception.

> Certainly, fanatics are difficult to tolerate at the best of
> times. However, Fataticism and Zealotry are encountered in all myriad
> manner of manifestations in the schools of Philosophical, Political,
> Economic, Social, and Religious thought. Lump them not all within one
> category.

Right. I don't think that throughout this discussion that this was
forgotten by anyone, just that perhaps it wasn't stated loudly enough.

-------------

I'll apologize if I've offended anyone, but I want to make it clear that
it is with a tremendous deal of respect that I make levity about various
institutions of the world. If I wanted to insult you specifically, I'd
do it and you'd know it.

____ Robert A. Hayden <=> hayden@*******.mankato.msus.edu
\ /__ -=-=-=-=- <=> -=-=-=-=-
\/ / Finger for Geek Code Info <=> I do not necessarily speak for the
\/ Finger for PGP Public Key <=> City of Mankato or anyone else
-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-
(GEEK CODE 2.1) GJ/CM d- H-- s-:++>s-:+ g+ p? au+ a- w++ v* C++(++++) UL++++$
P+>++ L++$ 3- E---- N+++ K+++ W M+ V-- -po+(---)>$ Y++ t+ 5+++
j R+++$ G- tv+ b+ D+ B--- e+>++(*) u** h* f r-->+++ !n y++**
Message no. 7
From: Gian-Paolo Musumeci <musumeci@***.LIS.UIUC.EDU>
Subject: Re: Real Magick
Date: Wed, 12 Oct 1994 08:09:45 -0500
> GP became angry with me because I made a crack about the word
> "practicing". That was not meant as a slam of Wicca, it was a question
> about the modern use of the English.

Yeah, it was just a really poor pun.

=)

GP
Message no. 8
From: Nightfox <DJWA@******.UCC.NAU.EDU>
Subject: Re: Real Magick
Date: Wed, 12 Oct 1994 15:07:56 -0700
> I would please request that the non-shadowrun thread be taken to
>E-mail, I am interested in opinions regarding magic, as I am an amateur
>occultist, and I have done MUCH research regarding the topic.

Actually I would request that we KEEP the discussion here.

My reason for this is that ShadowRn is a board for discussing things having to
do with Shaodwrun. This is not limited to Tech and Politics - it also includes
philosophy on magical beliefs of today.

After all, 1/2 of Shadowrun History has been effect by magic - it might be nice
to know how the people who effected this history think.

Unfortunately - I do not know many an Native-American Role-players of ShadowRN
(or any other system) otherwise I would ask their opinion on magic and the
Native American involvment in The indian wars and the forming of NAN.


Nightfox

The world of shadowrn is not just Tech - it is also magic.

BOINGEE!!!BOINGEE!!!BOINGEE!!!BOINGEE!!!BOINGEE!!!BOINGEE!!!BOINGEE!!!BOINGEE!!!
Daniel Waisley + SCA - March of Ered Sul - Flagstaff AZ
DJWA@******.UCC.NAU.EDU + Nau fencing club.
"Nightfox" + Brotherhood of the Cryptic Demesne -household
BOINGEE!!!BOINGEE!!!BOINGEE!!!BOINGEE!!!BOINGEE!!!BOINGEE!!!BOINGEE!!!BOINGEE!!!
Geek code V2.1 GE d-? H++ s+:->++: g+ p? !au(-) a21! w++ v+* C++$(++++)
U(-) p? L !3 E? N K- W M+ V+ -po+(---) Y+ t+ 5+++! j-x R+(++) G' tv
b+(+++) D(+) B--- e+ u+*(++)(**) h(*) f+(*) r-->+++ !n- y+*>++
Message no. 9
From: Erik S Jameson <esj@***.UUG.ARIZONA.EDU>
Subject: Re: Real Magick
Date: Wed, 12 Oct 1994 15:20:04 -0700
I have to vote we move this discussion to another board. Yes, magic
plays a huge role in the formation of the SR world. But I, for one, do
not subscribe to this board to listen to what I consider to be mystical
babble. Now, before anyone gets upset at my comment, it is not intended
as an insult. If you take it that way, so be it. I personally am an
agnostic, and don't believe in magic, ghosts, ufo's, or psychic
abilities. THAT IS JUST ME!!! Maybe these things do exist. But this is
NOT the board to discuss them. I have grown tiredr and annoyed from all
the mystical bable that I have seen here recently. I also found very
tiresome and annoying the techno-babble we got a little while back on
ammo types. I really don't need to know this!

This board is for discussing game concepts, and possible game ideas.
Let's keep it that way, and not have it turn into the WiccanTalk or
Physictalk. Okay?

Erik, a.k.a. the Whistler
Message no. 10
From: Kevin Ragan <kragan@***.UVIC.CA>
Subject: Re: Real Magick
Date: Wed, 12 Oct 1994 15:49:36 PDT
I agree totally with Erik. Move the discussion somewhere else please.
The friend of mine who lets me use his e-mail address is getting
awefull upset.

Thanx,
Blackest Knight.
Message no. 11
From: Gian-Paolo Musumeci <musumeci@***.LIS.UIUC.EDU>
Subject: Re: Real Magick
Date: Wed, 12 Oct 1994 18:27:34 -0500
Tell you what -- anyone who's interested in developing a new magic system, or
just interested in discussing magic, email me, and we'll set up a list.
Message no. 12
From: Nightfox <DJWA@******.UCC.NAU.EDU>
Subject: Re: Real Magick
Date: Wed, 12 Oct 1994 21:29:54 -0700
>I have to vote we move this discussion to another board. Yes, magic
>plays a huge role in the formation of the SR world. But I, for one, do
>not subscribe to this board to listen to what I consider to be mystical
>babble. Now, before anyone gets upset at my comment, it is not intended
>as an insult. If you take it that way, so be it. I personally am an
>agnostic, and don't believe in magic, ghosts, ufo's, or psychic
>abilities. THAT IS JUST ME!!! Maybe these things do exist. But this is
>NOT the board to discuss them.

> I have grown tiredr and annoyed from all
>the mystical bable that I have seen here recently. I also found very
>tiresome and annoying the techno-babble we got a little while back on
>ammo types. I really don't need to know this!

probably not - but some of us do for our worlds. Basically what I was looking
for is a little more knowledge on magical though and how it pertains to
Shadowrun and the time period before, during, and after the Awakening.

Lets face it - the awakening was the most important event in the historyof the
world to date (the shadowrun world). No other even effected 10% of the
population physically and touched everyone else. There are people in the world

>This board is for discussing game concepts, and possible game ideas.
>Let's keep it that way, and not have it turn into the WiccanTalk or
>Physictalk. Okay?

and is for discussing cyber-punkish topics like new tech of today that we see
becoming something in the future. its for discussing politics and how it will
effect shadowrun (example is clipper and things like gun-control). We discuss
things like this to see how it fits into Shadowrun - we don't just post up stats
and rules clarification - we're family (we have to be - we fight enough)

Heck - we even do R.I.P.'s for people who have had an influence on our
generation and concepts of Cyberpunk, Sci-fi and fantasy.

We basically try not to limit ourselves - we only ask that it have some
revelance to Sahdowrun and in my opinion what people think today about magic
really would matter.

Nightfox

BOINGEE!!!BOINGEE!!!BOINGEE!!!BOINGEE!!!BOINGEE!!!BOINGEE!!!BOINGEE!!!BOINGEE!!!
Daniel Waisley + SCA - March of Ered Sul - Flagstaff AZ
DJWA@******.UCC.NAU.EDU + Nau fencing club.
"Nightfox" + Brotherhood of the Cryptic Demesne -household
BOINGEE!!!BOINGEE!!!BOINGEE!!!BOINGEE!!!BOINGEE!!!BOINGEE!!!BOINGEE!!!BOINGEE!!!
Geek code V2.1 GE d-? H++ s+:->++: g+ p? !au(-) a21! w++ v+* C++$(++++)
U(-) p? L !3 E? N K- W M+ V+ -po+(---) Y+ t+ 5+++! j-x R+(++) G' tv
b+(+++) D(+) B--- e+ u+*(++)(**) h(*) f+(*) r-->+++ !n- y+*>++
Message no. 13
From: MILLIKEN DAMION A <u9467882@***.EDU.AU>
Subject: Re: Real Magick
Date: Thu, 13 Oct 1994 17:28:56 +1000
Erik writes:

[Complaints about the list turning into "magicserve", and
"physicserve"]

Well, I rather liked the more detailed discussions on many of the topics
discussed here. It usually makes for good background for a run, or
character, or whatever. Now, as of this, I can run that enemy shaman more
appropriately. Thanks to the detailed discussion on orbital railguns, I can
base a run around such a device, and have good background and stats for it,
as well as knowledge of how the runners can stuff up, evade, take control of
it etc.

I think such discusions should stay, as they are still relevant to SR. Only
if the list volume gets real high (like last semester - 70-100 per day!), do
I think it neccessary to remove the topics.

--
Damion Milliken University of Wollongong e-mail: u9467882@***.edu.au

(GEEK CODE 2.1) GE -d+(d) H s++:-- !g p? !au a18 w+ v(?) C+(++) US++ P? L !3 E?
N K- W+ M@ !V po@ Y(+) t+ !5 !j R+(++) G(+)('') !tv(--)@ b++ D+
B? e+ u@ h* f(+) !r n--(----) !y+
Message no. 14
From: Chris Lubrecht <lubrecht@***.EDU>
Subject: Re: Real Magick
Date: Thu, 13 Oct 1994 11:26:31 -0400
Wow!!! I can see this is a touchy subject. Maybe this is a good cross
section of attitudes toward magic today, and perhaps good for reference
in games to how some people accept or don't accept magic in SR. Not
everyone in the SR universe accepts magic as 100% holy or good. Some
believe conjouring is a "brimstone paved path to hell." I have personal
views that I will not post (about the whole pagan, wiccan thing), I
believe you have yours, I have mine. However, I would like to see the
items about beliefs and such taken to private mail. The other stuff
(like above) I have no prob with.

Nigel
Message no. 15
From: "C. Paul Douglas" <granite@*****.NET>
Subject: Re: Real Magick
Date: Thu, 13 Oct 1994 12:20:07 -0400
On Wed, 12 Oct 1994, Kevin Ragan wrote:
......Move the discussion somewhere else please.....
> Blackest Knight.
>
I agree..Please take the discussion off line...
-----------------------------GRANITE
Message no. 16
From: Marc A Renouf <jormung@*****.UMICH.EDU>
Subject: Re: Real Magick
Date: Thu, 13 Oct 1994 14:33:35 -0400
On Wed, 12 Oct 1994, Nightfox wrote:
[on the importance of the awakening and why magick should be discussed here]

> Lets face it - the awakening was the most important event in the historyof the
> world to date (the shadowrun world). No other even effected 10% of the
> population physically and touched everyone else.

You forget that Vitas-3 wiped out a quarter of the world's
population. You don't see discussion of communicable diseases wasting
our bandwidth on this list, do you? So let's keep modern day magical
matters on a separate list so we don't waste anyone else's time.

Just my $0.02

Marc
Message no. 17
From: "Robert A. Hayden" <hayden@*******.MANKATO.MSUS.EDU>
Subject: Re: Real Magick
Date: Thu, 13 Oct 1994 13:38:09 -0500
On Thu, 13 Oct 1994, Marc A Renouf wrote:

> You forget that Vitas-3 wiped out a quarter of the world's
> population. You don't see discussion of communicable diseases wasting
> our bandwidth on this list, do you? So let's keep modern day magical
> matters on a separate list so we don't waste anyone else's time.

Those discussions HAVE taken place on this list. Please read the FAQ.
This discussion is within the charter of this list.
>

____ Robert A. Hayden <=> hayden@*******.mankato.msus.edu
\ /__ -=-=-=-=- <=> -=-=-=-=-
\/ / Finger for Geek Code Info <=> I do not necessarily speak for the
\/ Finger for PGP Public Key <=> City of Mankato or anyone else
-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-
(GEEK CODE 2.1) GJ/CM d- H-- s-:++>s-:+ g+ p? au+ a- w++ v* C++(++++) UL++++$
P+>++ L++$ 3- E---- N+++ K+++ W M+ V-- -po+(---)>$ Y++ t+ 5+++
j R+++$ G- tv+ b+ D+ B--- e+>++(*) u** h* f r-->+++ !n y++**
Message no. 18
From: Sam Thomas <sinbad@********.COM>
Subject: Re: Real Magick
Date: Thu, 13 Oct 1994 15:49:49 -0500
>Tell you what -- anyone who's interested in developing a new magic system, or
>just interested in discussing magic, email me, and we'll set up a list.
>
>
Sign Me Up. I am interested in discussions of Shadowrun Magic.

Sinbad Sam

Further Reading

If you enjoyed reading about Real Magick, you may also be interested in:

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Thwap!