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Message no. 1
From: Adam Getchell <acgetche@****.UCDAVIS.EDU>
Subject: Real magic(k) and SRII rules
Date: Sun, 24 Jul 1994 02:31:59 -0700
Hmmm...from my albeit limited understanding, I thought Astral
Travel was basically the spirit roaming the world as a ghost? And, er,
can't ghosts pass through living people? You know, the old Scottish
"the ghost of Rupert the Red just walked through you" "Hmmm...gee, I
_did_ feel a chill".
So then, should Astral Travellers have no problems flying through
living auras? Also, can't you only basically go to places you know by
thinking about them, rather than being able to reconnoiter places you've
never been?

+-------------+---------------------------------------------------------------+
|Adam Getchell|acgetche@****.engr.ucdavis.edu | ez000270@*******.ucdavis.edu |
| acgetchell |"Invincibility is in oneself, vulnerability is in the opponent"|
+-------------+---------------------------------------------------------------+
Message no. 2
From: "Jason Carter, Nightstalker" <CARTER@***.EDU>
Subject: Re: Real magic(k) and SRII rules
Date: Sun, 24 Jul 1994 10:31:41 -0700
Adam Getchell said:

> Hmmm...from my albeit limited understanding, I thought Astral
>Travel was basically the spirit roaming the world as a ghost? And, er,
>can't ghosts pass through living people? You know, the old Scottish
>"the ghost of Rupert the Red just walked through you" "Hmmm...gee, I
>_did_ feel a chill".

Many things that people believed to be true about magic were proved false.
This is one of them :)

> So then, should Astral Travellers have no problems flying through
>living auras? Also, can't you only basically go to places you know by
>thinking about them, rather than being able to reconnoiter places you've
>never been?

You don't really think about going there, you "fly" there really quickly.
Once your astrally projecting, you just walk around. If your not worryed about
seeing the sights, you walk really fast.

*******************************************************************************
* See Ya in Shadows * * "Trust No One." *
* Jason J Carter * Carter@***.EDU * The late Deep Throat *
* The Nightstalker * * The X-Files *
*******************************************************************************
Message no. 3
From: "C. Paul Douglas" <granite@*****.NET>
Subject: Re: Real magic(k) and SRII rules
Date: Sun, 24 Jul 1994 11:16:13 -0400
On Sun, 24 Jul 1994, Adam Getchell wrote:

> Hmmm...from my albeit limited understanding, I thought Astral
> Travel was basically the spirit roaming the world as a ghost?

Ghosts are a particular entity and not the same thing as astral mages...

And, er,
> can't ghosts pass through living people?

As for this I do not see this sort of thing listed under the powers on
the ghost..However, it should be up to the GM..

> So then, should Astral Travellers have no problems flying through
> living auras?

This does not work at all read Astra Space on pg 145 of the core rule book

Also, can't you only basically go to places you know by
> thinking about them, rather than being able to reconnoiter places you've
> never been?
>
What does having been ther before have to do with astral space..The only
thing that is even remotely like this is you had better remember where
you left your body..or you might be in a world of hurt....Read Astral
Projection and Astral Movement pg 146 core rule book...
-----------------------------GRANITE
Message no. 4
From: Eve Forward <ez019741@****.UCDAVIS.EDU>
Subject: Re: Real magic(k) and SRII rules
Date: Mon, 25 Jul 1994 15:54:25 -0700
Jason Carter says:

>Many things that people believed to be true about magic were proved false.
>This is one of them :)

Really? I should very much like to see that proof, I should. Last I knew
no-one had any concrete proof about ghosts or astral travel or anything...

Oh, you mean for the SRII rules... :)

-E
Message no. 5
From: Adam Getchell <acgetche@****.UCDAVIS.EDU>
Subject: Re: Real magic(k) and SRII rules
Date: Tue, 26 Jul 1994 02:38:24 -0700
On Sun, 24 Jul 1994, C. Paul Douglas wrote:

> As for this I do not see this sort of thing listed under the powers on
> the ghost..However, it should be up to the GM..

Look, I wasn't talking about Shadowrun rules, because I can pick
up the book and read it myself. I was trying to determine the physics,
or metaphysics, or whatever, of magic.
One of the things about the magic system is it doesn't have any
constraints. If FASA publishes a Light Pistol with 45D damage people are
going to say "No way!" (although _some_ people will say "Cool ... I just
made my Availability Test to buy one.")
We know certain things about SR Combat are a bit unrealistic, so
we can sort of compensate for it. We don't have as much knowledge about
magic, so I was appealing to those with more knowledge of how "real
magic" works, or ought to work.
(Just like FASA should have appealed to a fighter pilot/military
type when writing their vehicular rules/Rigger Black Book.)
Doesn't matter whether you believe magic works or not. Let's
just say, for the skeptics, that there are people out there that know how
magic "ought" to work.

> This does not work at all read Astra Space on pg 145 of the core rule book

See above.

> What does having been ther before have to do with astral space..The only

See above.

> -----------------------------GRANITE

+-------------+---------------------------------------------------------------+
|Adam Getchell|acgetche@****.engr.ucdavis.edu | ez000270@*******.ucdavis.edu |
| acgetchell |"Invincibility is in oneself, vulnerability is in the opponent"|
+-------------+---------------------------------------------------------------+
Message no. 6
From: Ivy Ryan <ivyryan@***.ORG>
Subject: Re: Real magic(k) and SRII rules
Date: Tue, 26 Jul 1994 11:46:42 -0700
Adam, I certainly do agree with you on

On Tue, 26 Jul 1994, Adam Getchell wrote:

> On Sun, 24 Jul 1994, C. Paul Douglas wrote:
>
> > As for this I do not see this sort of thing listed under the powers on
> > the ghost..However, it should be up to the GM..

Your ghosts walking through people... Historical, and a nice touch. And
very possible, because of the way a materialized mage operates. The
Ghost is NOT alive, so it should be able to walk through living things on
the mundane plane. And, from history, can.

> Look, I wasn't talking about Shadowrun rules, because I can pick
> up the book and read it myself. I was trying to determine the physics,
> or metaphysics, or whatever, of magic.
> One of the things about the magic system is it doesn't have any
> constraints. If FASA publishes a Light Pistol with 45D damage people are
> going to say "No way!" (although _some_ people will say "Cool ... I
just
> made my Availability Test to buy one.")

Yep, I've seen a few like that.

> We know certain things about SR Combat are a bit unrealistic, so
> we can sort of compensate for it. We don't have as much knowledge about
> magic, so I was appealing to those with more knowledge of how "real
> magic" works, or ought to work.

The combat is realistic, just abstracted so that we don't have to do a
GURPS-like second by second thing.

> (Just like FASA should have appealed to a fighter pilot/military
> type when writing their vehicular rules/Rigger Black Book.)

Goddess, Yes! Abstract can be carried to extremes, and they did.

> Doesn't matter whether you believe magic works or not. Let's
> just say, for the skeptics, that there are people out there that know how
> magic "ought" to work.

Well, if you are asking me, you have my take on it up above. The ghost
isn't alive, so the rules sort of reverse. I'm not too sure about walls,
on the other hand, but historically they can walk through them. So why not?


Ivy
Message no. 7
From: Hamish Laws <h_laws@**********.UTAS.EDU.AU>
Subject: Re: Real magic(k) and SRII rules
Date: Thu, 28 Jul 1994 08:53:04 +0700
Ivy says
>Adam, I certainly do agree with you on
>
>On Tue, 26 Jul 1994, Adam Getchell wrote:
>
>> On Sun, 24 Jul 1994, C. Paul Douglas wrote:
>>
>> > As for this I do not see this sort of thing listed under the powers on
>> > the ghost..However, it should be up to the GM..

SNIP

>> Look, I wasn't talking about Shadowrun rules, because I can pick
>> up the book and read it myself. I was trying to determine the physics,
>> or metaphysics, or whatever, of magic.
>> One of the things about the magic system is it doesn't have any
>> constraints. If FASA publishes a Light Pistol with 45D damage people are
>> going to say "No way!" (although _some_ people will say "Cool ...
I just
>> made my Availability Test to buy one.")
>
>Yep, I've seen a few like that.

You haven't ever seen a character called Ferrous, or, more likely Kitten
have you?
Posted by Jeff (I forget his last name) on an AD&D Listserver, somehow they
just sprang to mind reading this post : )

>
SNIP
>
>> Doesn't matter whether you believe magic works or not. Let's
>> just say, for the skeptics, that there are people out there that know how
>> magic "ought" to work.
>
>Well, if you are asking me, you have my take on it up above. The ghost
>isn't alive, so the rules sort of reverse. I'm not too sure about walls,
>on the other hand, but historically they can walk through them. So why not?
>

But Ivy, what does the book say?? : )
Surely you aren't (gasp) _suggesting_a_house_rule_to__enhance__play????
>
>Ivy


*************************************************
There has to be an optimist around here somewhere
*************************************************

Hamish Laws
Message no. 8
From: Adam Getchell <acgetche@****.UCDAVIS.EDU>
Subject: Re: Real magic(k) and SRII rules
Date: Thu, 28 Jul 1994 09:25:11 -0700
Thanks for the reply, Ivy.
So you're saying a ghost has no problem with a living aura
because it isn't alive.
Hmmmmmm...do spell locks, foci, anchorings and quickenings
count? It says in the rules they're "alive" but would "aliveness"
have
to do with some property of ether resistance? So "dead auras" won't
resist auras passing through but live ones would?
And on what level does life count? Bacterial? Fungus? Kelp?
Whales?
These are, BTW, serious questions on the "metaphysics of magic"
so please don't quote rules at me, I'm interested in people who would
have something relevant to say.
Heck, I'd pipe up freely if it involved physics or such.

+-------------+---------------------------------------------------------------+
|Adam Getchell|acgetche@****.engr.ucdavis.edu | ez000270@*******.ucdavis.edu |
| acgetchell |"Invincibility is in oneself, vulnerability is in the opponent"|
+-------------+---------------------------------------------------------------+
Message no. 9
From: Ivy Ryan <ivyryan@***.ORG>
Subject: Re: Real magic(k) and SRII rules
Date: Thu, 28 Jul 1994 10:47:42 -0700
Actually, Hamish, I was indeed

On Thu, 28 Jul 1994, Hamish Laws wrote:

> Ivy says
> >Adam, I certainly do agree with you on
> >
> >On Tue, 26 Jul 1994, Adam Getchell wrote:
> >
> >> On Sun, 24 Jul 1994, C. Paul Douglas wrote:
> >> > As for this I do not see this sort of thing listed under the powers on
> >> > the ghost..However, it should be up to the GM..

> >> Look, I wasn't talking about Shadowrun rules, because I can pick
> >> up the book and read it myself. I was trying to determine the physics,
> >> One of the things about the magic system is it doesn't have any
> >> constraints. If FASA publishes a Light Pistol with 45D damage people are
> >> going to say "No way!" (although _some_ people will say
"Cool ... I just
> >> made my Availability Test to buy one.")
> >
> >Yep, I've seen a few like that.
> >
> >> Doesn't matter whether you believe magic works or not. Let's
> >> just say, for the skeptics, that there are people out there that know how
> >> magic "ought" to work.
> >
> >Well, if you are asking me, you have my take on it up above. The ghost
> >isn't alive, so the rules sort of reverse. I'm not too sure about walls,
> >on the other hand, but historically they can walk through them. So why not?
> >
>
> But Ivy, what does the book say?? : )
> Surely you aren't (gasp) _suggesting_a_house_rule_to__enhance__play????

suggesting that Adam's ghosts sounded reasonable. Actually they are very
true to legend. Of course, Adam is a mature, and experienced, GM too.
And, If you look in the section on critters, you'll find that there are a
lot of things you can do with critters that stay inside the rules.

I'm an optimist.

Ivy
Message no. 10
From: Stuart Skabo <sj_skabo@**********.UTAS.EDU.AU>
Subject: Re: Real magic(k) and SRII rules
Date: Fri, 29 Jul 1994 12:36:00 +1000
Adam Gretchell writes (in reply to Ivy),

> Hmmmmmm...do spell locks, foci, anchorings and quickenings
>count? It says in the rules they're "alive".....

Alive is what is says in the rules and as living things what happens to
them when they are active in the area of effect of say a manaball spell
cast as the owner, do they have to resist? can they then be killed?

Our group has had a big arguement over this precise metaphysical arguement.

>......but would "aliveness" have
>to do with some property of ether resistance? So "dead auras" won't
>resist auras passing through but live ones would
> And on what level does life count? Bacterial? Fungus? Kelp?
>Whales?

All life has auras that act as barriers even bacteria (although u could
push these out of the way).
But what about ghosts? IMHO they can't pass thru life, the cold feeling
asociated with a ghosts presence is i think the ghost touching u. Well?

Little bunny frou frous, nghtchld !
Message no. 11
From: Luke Kendall <luke@********.CANON.OZ.AU>
Subject: Re: Real magic(k) and SRII rules
Date: Fri, 29 Jul 1994 13:44:58 +1000
Stuart Skabo notes:

> Adam Gretchell writes (in reply to Ivy),
>

> > Hmmmmmm...do spell locks, foci, anchorings and quickenings
> >count? It says in the rules they're "alive".....
>

> Alive is what is says in the rules and as living things what happens to
> them when they are active in the area of effect of say a manaball spell
> cast as the owner, do they have to resist? can they then be killed?
>

> Our group has had a big arguement over this precise metaphysical arguement.

Excellent question; I've never thought about it. Let's see...

From my interpretation of the magic rules, the aura of the spell lock
exists on the astral plane (the spell is `alive' only there), despite
the fact that it is grounding out and channelling magical energy into
the physical plane.

So, because its aura is not present on the physical plane, it would not
be affected by spells cast on the physical plane.

> All life has auras that act as barriers even bacteria (although u could
> push these out of the way).

An astral body can't move anything on the physical plane by pushing on it.
The astral body is undetectable through any use of physics or technology;
therefore it is massless, energyless, etc. etc. (Magical `energy' is
not something that fits into physics - don't let the re-use of the word
fool you [for those following the English/language-complexity thread :-)].)

> But what about ghosts? IMHO they can't pass thru life, the cold feeling
> asociated with a ghosts presence is i think the ghost touching u. Well?

I agree 100%. The only reason people are arguing that the ghosts pass
through you, is that they want SR to be like `real life', where we all
know [:-)] ghosts do this all the time. (They call it meat-bungying,
or skin-diving. ;-))

This misdirected attempt (IMHO) is just another kludge that some are happy
to add to the magic system.

Remember that possession-by-spirits in SR is possible (pesky insect!),
and the two sprits co-exist in the one body. Depending on how your GM
plays it, this can either be an intertwining of the two spirits (`plaid
spirits') or one spirit swallowing and slowly consuming the other.

These two `explanations', and your suggestion that the cold feeling you
get when a ghost touches you (misinterpreted by the brain as a feeling of
coldness sweeping through you) - all these explanations work well.

You could even guess that the coldness is the sensation of astral energy
drain being translated into a physical sensation. We'd just have to say
that even an otherwise imperceptible drain is sufficient to cause this
reaction.

luke
Message no. 12
From: Stuart Skabo <sj_skabo@**********.UTAS.EDU.AU>
Subject: Re: Real magic(k) and SRII rules
Date: Fri, 29 Jul 1994 16:55:19 +1000
I note:

>> Alive is what is says in the rules and as living things what happens to
>> them when they are active in the area of effect of say a manaball spell
>> cast as the owner, do they have to resist? can they then be killed?
>> Our group has had a big arguement over this precise metaphysical arguement.

Luke Kendall replies:
>Excellent question; I've never thought about it. Let's see...
>
>>From my interpretation of the magic rules, the aura of the spell lock
>exists on the astral plane (the spell is `alive' only there), despite
>the fact that it is grounding out and channelling magical energy into
>the physical plane.
>
>So, because its aura is not present on the physical plane, it would not
>be affected by spells cast on the physical plane.

However my arguement went (as i was the GM trying to kill a particularly
nasty focus at 4am) that a combat spell(manaball) affects all targets in
line of sight. So if cast at the runners by an astral percepting mage
(effectively a dual being) it will afffect all visible targets ,including
the active (= dual) foci etc carried by a mage. So these items being
"alive" are affected by the mana (life) spell. It all ties in with
mundane/astral symmetry which is the basis of the SR magic system.

In the same way u can push Astrally active bacteria (which is what i meant)
and dual beings around from the purely astral plane (?).

I have always thought that dual beings are utterly vulnerable to long range
spells, to easy to kill.

Little bunny frou frous, nghtchld !
Message no. 13
From: Ivy Ryan <ivyryan@***.ORG>
Subject: Re: Real magic(k) and SRII rules
Date: Sat, 30 Jul 1994 17:27:36 -0700
Hi Adam,

On Thu, 28 Jul 1994, Adam Getchell wrote:

> Thanks for the reply, Ivy.

No problem.

> So you're saying a ghost has no problem with a living aura
> because it isn't alive.

Yep, kinda a reverse on the living cannot go through living, ghosts might
have trouble with unliving things, but not living ones.

> Hmmmmmm...do spell locks, foci, anchorings and quickenings
> count? It says in the rules they're "alive" but would
"aliveness" have
> to do with some property of ether resistance? So "dead auras" won't
> resist auras passing through but live ones would?

That would have to be up to you. I would say that a ghost can pass
through any dead arua, but magic is an almost living aura. I'd say yes.
Actually, by history, ghosts has a very tenuous aura anyway, so they
might be able to go through anything. Including solid walls.

> And on what level does life count? Bacterial? Fungus? Kelp?
> Whales?

OK< some of what I said before was ruleish, but actually, all living
things count as life. Bacteria can easily be pushed aside, so it is no
problem, Kelp can be a problem, fungus is also not easily pushed because
it's rooted, and pushing a whale is not going to work. But a ghost can
put it's tenuous aura through any of them without trouble.

> These are, BTW, serious questions on the "metaphysics of magic"
> so please don't quote rules at me, I'm interested in people who would
> have something relevant to say.

I hope that this is some help. Your physics comments have helped me
several times now.

> Heck, I'd pipe up freely if it involved physics or such.


Ivy
Message no. 14
From: Damion Milliken <u9467882@******.UOW.EDU.AU>
Subject: Re: Real magic(k) and SRII rules
Date: Tue, 2 Aug 1994 20:27:44 +0000
> >From my interpretation of the magic rules, the aura of the spell lock
> >exists on the astral plane (the spell is `alive' only there), despite
> >the fact that it is grounding out and channelling magical energy into
> >the physical plane.
> >
> >So, because its aura is not present on the physical plane, it would not
> >be affected by spells cast on the physical plane.
>
> However my arguement went (as i was the GM trying to kill a particularly
> nasty focus at 4am) that a combat spell(manaball) affects all targets in
> line of sight. So if cast at the runners by an astral percepting mage
> (effectively a dual being) it will afffect all visible targets ,including
> the active (= dual) foci etc carried by a mage. So these items being
> "alive" are affected by the mana (life) spell. It all ties in with
> mundane/astral symmetry which is the basis of the SR magic system.

I would say that to affect foci you must directly target them as the spells
target, for use as a bridge between the astral and physical. Or for use as a
bridge from the physical to the astral (like if you're a sorcery adept, and
some full mage is toasting your foci from the astral, then you can target a
spell through a focus to effect the guy on the astral - hopefully not yours)
Like, even if you are physical, then you only affect a foci if you choose to
use it as a bridge to the astral, the same way an astral mage uses an active
foci as a bridge to the physical.

Alternatively, you could reason that any active foci is a valid target for an
area effect spell. It exists, so it can be hit. You could also rule that even
an unactive foci would be effected by a spell if the spell was effecting the
physical plane. Remember that only physical spells can effect foci, regardless
of whether it is from/in atral or physical space. I kinda like this idea,
although it means no foci will last longer than one area effect spell. The
first time an enemy mage lobs a physical area effect at you, then all your
foci will probably die.

> In the same way u can push Astrally active bacteria (which is what i meant)
> and dual beings around from the purely astral plane (?).

No, as someone else pointed out, if you are on the astral, you cannot do
_anything_ to the physical plane, even if you attempt to affect a dual being.
Note I am wrong here on spellcasting, it is possible to effect the physical
from the astral if you have a suitable bridge, be it a foci, dual being or
projecting mage. I was referring to effects like pushing, you cannot simply
reach out and push an astral entity (unless you hit it with a spell, and it
gets knocked back). So even a dual bacteria, although easily pushed aside if
you are on the physical, is impossible to push aside if you are on the astral.
This brings up the problem about bacteria in the air though. Perhaps I am
interpreting this wrongly.

> I have always thought that dual beings are utterly vulnerable to long range
> spells, to easy to kill.

Well, come to think of it, _all_ beings, dual or not are utterly vulnerable to
long range spells, but not all are easy to kill.

--
Damion Milliken University of Wollongong E-Mail: u9467882@******.uow.edu.au

(Geek Code 2.1) GE d@ H s++:-- !g p? !au a18 w+ v C+ U P? !L !3 E? N K- W+ M
!V po@ Y t(+) !5 !j r+(++) G(+) !tv(--) b++ D+ B? e+ u@ h+(*)
f+@ !r n--(----)@ !y+
Message no. 15
From: Marc A Renouf <jormung@*****.UMICH.EDU>
Subject: Re: Real magic(k) and SRII rules
Date: Thu, 4 Aug 1994 14:09:31 -0400
An astral entity (say a projecting mage) COULD push through the
floating, astrally active bacteria. You are forgetting that even though
he can't affect anything on the physical plane, he can touch astral/dual
beings as normal. This is necessarily true as there are rules for astral
combat, which is basically hand-to-hand. Also, the knockback rules would
appear to apply to astral combat (though this is ambiguous enough that it
could easily be GM discretion), so it would seem that you could push
something small and nearly massless (relative to the mage) like bacteria
out of the way.
This scenario offers several bizarre but interesting things to
happen. For example, envision melee combat between a hell-hound and a
projecting mage. The animal would jump around, bite, lunge, etc. just as
though it were in real combat. This might let the rest of the mage's
team know that he is successfully distracting the beast, and they can
slip by. Or another example: A thick cloud of astrally active bacteria
is thrown up by security guards to confuse projecting mages. As the mage
pushes the astral protion of the bacteria out of the way, the physical
part follows, meaning that if the bacteria are dense enough to be visible
physically, you could see swirls, voids, and edddies as the mage moved
through it astrally. That way, you would know where the mage was (if you
happened to be looking in that direction and knew what to look for) and
after all, knowing is half the battle ;)

Marc (projectin' his thoughts on the matter)
Message no. 16
From: Stuart Skabo <sj_skabo@**********.UTAS.EDU.AU>
Subject: Re: Real magic(k) and SRII rules
Date: Fri, 5 Aug 1994 12:00:19 +1000
Marc writes,
> An astral entity (say a projecting mage) COULD push through the
>floating, astrally active bacteria. You are forgetting that even though
>he can't affect anything on the physical plane, he can touch astral/dual
>beings as normal. This is necessarily true as there are rules for astral
>combat, which is basically hand-to-hand.
>.... so it would seem that you could push something small and nearly massless
>>(relative to the mage) like bacteria out of the way.

> For example, envision melee combat between a hell-hound and a
>projecting mage. The animal would jump around, bite, lunge, etc. just as
>though it were in real combat.

YES! But surely the same principles apply to ANY dual beings relating to
physical effects from the astral. i.e. an astral mage with sufficient
Str(=Chr) could pick up a hell hound and carry it (if it was a friendly
hell hound!) or, for that matter, an active focus such as an enchanted (or
anchored) item of his creation. In this way i think a mage could carry a
dual focus while projecting into unexpected places (blocked of course by
real doors etc AND astral barriers etc).

Just some more thoughts on the ambiguous, intellectually stimulating and
frustrating SR magic system from the nghtchld.

-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-|
Email: sj_skabo@**********.sandybay.utas.edu.au |
Phone: (002) 241450 (in Australia of course!) |
Message no. 17
From: Luke Kendall <luke@********.CANON.OZ.AU>
Subject: Re: Real magic(k) and SRII rules
Date: Fri, 5 Aug 1994 12:33:07 +1000
This discussion about astral beings hypothesised ability to move
physical objects (`but only little ones') sounds to me like
suggesting that small rocks should float. :-)

It's a can of worms: if you interpret the magic rules to let you do
this, all sorts of things will break, or be open to abuse.

Why not just make the (reasonable, IMHO) decision that mages can't have
any such effect?

If you're worried about mages not being able to move through air, then
assume that the astral form is a bit gaseous, and can flow around bacteria
and other sufficiently tiny obstacles?

luke
Message no. 18
From: Damion Milliken <u9467882@******.UOW.EDU.AU>
Subject: Re: Real magic(k) and SRII rules
Date: Fri, 5 Aug 1994 18:32:35 +0000
Marc writes:

> This is necessarily true as there are rules for astral combat, which is
> basically hand-to-hand.

It depends on whether you interpret astral combat as occurring because of
actual contact, or because of the intent to harm. I always assumed that you
damaged someone in astral space not actually by hitting them but by willing
it, the emotion associated with your intent to harm them actually did the
damage.

> Also, the knockback rules would appear to apply to astral combat (though
> this is ambiguous enough that it could easily be GM discretion)

Yeah, they don't really say do they? But because of the "repercusion"
effect, if you damaged someone on astral space then the effect would also
occur on their physical body. The "repercussion" would translate the astral
emotional damage into physical damage, and the target would then have to
resist knockback (only for dual beings though) - An astral only being would
not suffer knockback in this manner. It would be entirely possible to argue
that the emotional "force" of an astral blow would have similar effects to
knockback though, so then astral only beings would suffer knockback too.

Of cource you could always argue that the knockback rules do not apply in
astral space.

> so it would seem that you could push something small and nearly massless
> (relative to the mage) like bacteria out of the way.

Well, by my interpretation, only if you actively beat the hell out if
(astrally), which is possible I guess.

> This scenario offers several bizarre but interesting things to
> happen. For example, envision melee combat between a hell-hound and a
> projecting mage. The animal would jump around, bite, lunge, etc. just as
> though it were in real combat.

This I would say would happen anyhow, but it had better be one tough (or
brave/stupid) mage though. Taking on a dual creature from the astral is
somewhat dangerous.

> Or another example: A thick cloud of astrally active bacteria is thrown up
> by security guards to confuse projecting mages. As the mage pushes the
> astral protion of the bacteria out of the way, the physical part follows,
> meaning that if the bacteria are dense enough to be visible physically, you
> could see swirls, voids, and edddies as the mage moved through it astrally.
> That way, you would know where the mage was (if you happened to be looking
> in that direction and knew what to look for) and after all, knowing is half
> the battle ;)

If you allowed this then you would have to allow an astral mage to scrape
dual bacteria off a wall to pass through, or move dual plants out of the
windows of high security building too. As for mere mundane plants over the
windows, I would say not, so people could always use mundane bacteria to
sheild their cars with.

A question too. How would you deal with something which has different forms
on the astral and physical? Like a shapeshifter in human form. Say a
shapeshifter bear was in human form and sat down next to a mage who has spell
locks running. The astral form of the bear would be halfway through the mage
and his spell locks. Would this then force the mage to the side? I would have
said no, as there was no intent on the werebears part to do such a thing to the
mage. The problem of the two auras occupying the same piece of astral real
estate still exists though, so perhaps the mage gets pushed aside anyway. Or
perhaps the shapeshifter just can't sit there, an aura already occupies that
point in astral space, so he cannot move his aura there too.

I favour the latter. If there is an arua already somewhere, the only way to
get yours there is to beat up on the one you wish to move.

luke writes:

> This discussion about astral beings hypothesised ability to move
> physical objects (`but only little ones') sounds to me like
> suggesting that small rocks should float. :-)

Er, well they do. But due to surface tension rather than density differences.

> It's a can of worms: if you interpret the magic rules to let you do
> this, all sorts of things will break, or be open to abuse.

I completely agree here.

> Why not just make the (reasonable, IMHO) decision that mages can't have
> any such effect?

Because - We want _more_ power for mages! Why else? Our mages are already
close in power to God, we want to get that much closer. :-)

> If you're worried about mages not being able to move through air, then
> assume that the astral form is a bit gaseous, and can flow around bacteria
> and other sufficiently tiny obstacles?

A bit of a kludge, but it would work.

nghtchld writes:

> YES! But surely the same principles apply to ANY dual beings relating to
> physical effects from the astral. i.e. an astral mage with sufficient
> Str(=Chr) could pick up a hell hound and carry it (if it was a friendly
> hell hound!) or, for that matter, an active focus such as an enchanted (or
> anchored) item of his creation. In this way i think a mage could carry a
> dual focus while projecting into unexpected places (blocked of course by
> real doors etc AND astral barriers etc).

YES! Just another reason to take wise old lukeys advice and forget the idea.

I would think lukes idea about a slightly gaseous aura would pass the test for
the dual bacteria. And as for directly moving dual objects/beings I would say
you could not, unless you were present on the physical plane. The only way I
could see you could move a dual object from astral space would be by some
telekinetic spell, use the object as the bridge to the physical. Destroys the
magical nature of the object in the proccess, but he, dems de breaks.

--
Damion Milliken University of Wollongong E-Mail: u9467882@******.uow.edu.au

(Geek Code 2.1) GE d@ H s++:-- !g p? !au a18 w+ v C+ U P? !L !3 E? N K- W+ M
!V po@ Y t(+) !5 !j r+(++) G(+) !tv(--) b++ D+ B? e+ u@ h+(*)
f+@ !r n--(----)@ !y+

Further Reading

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