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Message no. 1
From: Arcady arcady@***.net
Subject: Reasonable limit on Edges and Flaws
Date: Mon, 2 Aug 1999 18:43:15 -0700
What do those who allow Edges and Flaws tend to set as the limit for how
many points of them PC's can have?

I set at +/-6 and am wondering if that's average, high, or low.

Arcady http://www.jps.net/arcady/ <0){{{{><
The Revolution will not be televised; it'll be emailed.
/.)\ Stop making sense. Be an Anti Intellectual
\(@/ Be Tao. Live Tao. Feel Tao. But don't do Tao.
Message no. 2
From: Patrick Goodman remo@***.net
Subject: Reasonable limit on Edges and Flaws
Date: Mon, 2 Aug 1999 20:59:26 -0500
> What do those who allow Edges and Flaws tend to set as the limit for how
> many points of them PC's can have?
>
> I set at +/-6 and am wondering if that's average, high, or low.

That strikes me as around the right range, and is even what the SR3
Companion recommends. In any event, that's what I use in my own campaign,
so take that as you will.

--
(>) Texas 2-Step
El Paso: Never surrender. Never forget. Never forgive.
Message no. 3
From: philippe pelletier philippe.pelletier2@*********.ca
Subject: Reasonable limit on Edges and Flaws
Date: Mon, 02 Aug 1999 22:07:20 -0400
I consider it low, but it tends to be more of average. I do prefer to let open
ended to those who wants more edges and flaws, since they will have less
character points, or more desadvantage to roleplay. They can have as many
flaws as they wants, as long as they play them. And of course, it has to be
reasonable, i dont want any 3X hunted 6X allergies and 4X dark secret, but by
reasonable means, it does not chnage the balance of the game by any way. Do it
as you wish.

Mirage

" what was that, somehitng with a jack writing ?. No, just a mirage "

Patrick Goodman a écrit:

> > What do those who allow Edges and Flaws tend to set as the limit for how
> > many points of them PC's can have?
> >
> > I set at +/-6 and am wondering if that's average, high, or low.
>
> That strikes me as around the right range, and is even what the SR3
> Companion recommends. In any event, that's what I use in my own campaign,
> so take that as you will.
>
> --
> (>) Texas 2-Step
> El Paso: Never surrender. Never forget. Never forgive.
Message no. 4
From: Bull bull@*******.net
Subject: Reasonable limit on Edges and Flaws
Date: Mon, 2 Aug 1999 23:31:18 -0400 (EDT)
IUsually I don;t worry about it unless the player is abusing the hell out
of the Edges/Flaws :]

However, I have a fun little "GM Option" that I've used recenly that I like:

Edges/Flaws have to equal out. You pick the Edges. I pick the Flaws. :]
That way i KNOW that the flaws will be easily adaptable in gameplay.

This is not to say I don;t allow them to pick an appropriate flaw or 2 if
it fits the character, but in general, I need to be able to use it as a
flaw for it to be worth some points :]

Bull
--
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ICQ: 35931890
====================================================== =
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======================================================
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Message no. 5
From: Scott Wheelock iscottw@*****.nb.ca
Subject: Reasonable limit on Edges and Flaws
Date: Tue, 03 Aug 1999 00:59:26 -0300
"And now, a Channel 6 editorial reply to Arcady."
] What do those who allow Edges and Flaws tend to set as the limit for how
] many points of them PC's can have?
]
] I set at +/-6 and am wondering if that's average, high, or low.

I go with two edges and two flaws max, whatever value (within reason,
there are some I won't allow). 'Course, I use the Building Point
system, so the point value of the flaws and edges don't have to match
up. Your mileage blah blah.

-Murder of One

To: All Employees
From: Human Resources
Subject: Short Term Disability benefit plan
-------------------------------------------------------------
"We are pleased to make available to you an
additional opportunity to enroll in the Voluntary
STD benefit option."
Message no. 6
From: Angelkiller 404 angelkiller404@**********.com
Subject: Reasonable limit on Edges and Flaws
Date: Tue, 3 Aug 1999 00:08:11 -0400
>] What do those who allow Edges and Flaws tend to set as the limit
for how
>] many points of them PC's can have?
>]
>] I set at +/-6 and am wondering if that's average, high, or low.
>
> I go with two edges and two flaws max, whatever value (within
reason,
>there are some I won't allow). 'Course, I use the Building Point
>system, so the point value of the flaws and edges don't have to match
>up. Your mileage blah blah.


I don't know if this'd be a bad idea, but I'm thinking of allowing my
new PCs to trade in skill points or Force points for Edges, at a rate
of 2:1 for Skills : Edges, and 1/1 for Force : Edges, or to buy them
at a rate of 25,000 nuyen per point. Otherwise, I limit it to a
+6/-6. Opinions?

-----
AK404

http://mindspring.com/~angelkiller404/
http://gibbed.com/parasiteve/
ICQ: 2157053

"There are hardly any excesses of the most crazed psychopath that
cannot easily be duplicated by a normal kindly family man who just
comes in to work every day and has a job to do."
Message no. 7
From: Hunter griffinhq@****.com
Subject: Reasonable limit on Edges and Flaws
Date: Tue, 3 Aug 1999 00:20:31 -0400
On Tue, 03 Aug 1999 00:59:26 -0300 Scott Wheelock <iscottw@*****.nb.ca>
writes:
> What do those who allow Edges and Flaws tend to set as the limit for
how
> many points of them PC's can have?
>
> I set at +/-6 and am wondering if that's average, high, or low.
>
The SR Companion sets a limit of 5 Edges and 5 Flaws. As a general rule
of thumb, I want either a zero balance (i.e. Flaw pts = Edge pts) or a
negative balance (i.e. more Flaw pts than Edge pts). I've found this to
work acceptably.
Just my nickel's worth.

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Message no. 8
From: Arcady arcady@***.net
Subject: Reasonable limit on Edges and Flaws
Date: Mon, 2 Aug 1999 22:32:25 -0700
> > What do those who allow Edges and Flaws tend to set as the limit for how
> > many points of them PC's can have?
> >
> > I set at +/-6 and am wondering if that's average, high, or low.
> >
> The SR Companion sets a limit of 5 Edges and 5 Flaws. As a general rule
> of thumb, I want either a zero balance (i.e. Flaw pts = Edge pts) or a
> negative balance (i.e. more Flaw pts than Edge pts). I've found this to
> work acceptably.

Does it. I've heard a couple people say it sets it at 5 or 6. Yet I can't
even find a suggestion beyond the comment of no more than 6 flaw points for
the purpose of getting build points. Do you or anyone else have an exact
page #, paragraph # reference? I've been trying to find guidelines on both
this and the metahumans. But I'm suspecting I'm just going to have to learn
by 'trial and error' over time. :)

On the negative balance... what's got me going down this road is a player
who delivered a character to me with -21 points of flaws. I asked him to
revise it citing my limit of +/- 6 and the email I'd sent him 1 month back
saying such...
And today got a revision at "only" -11 points of flaws. Asked him to revise
again and it came back at -8 flaw points and a comment on how he's hoping
I'll be lenient cause with the other characters he built that had too much
he decided to switch them out and wants to stay with this one... :) (yeah, I
know; this is about where my head starts hurting too. :) ). I'm wondering
just what's going to be handed to me at the game session this week...
Last week he handed me the -21 version. I handed him a character sheet and
told him to revise it. But got nothing until today... I think he was hoping
I'd have second thoughts...

I have no such plans but do want to know if the limits I've set are what's
normal for most people. Even if I did decide I was not setting it right I
wouldn't change that ruling on him now... too much headache...

Anyway, what he did with those 21 points was buy some killer resources and
skills... being a point based character (I give my players the option of
priority or 123 points. They went about 1/2 one way 1/2 the other.).

Arcady http://www.jps.net/arcady/ <0){{{{><
The Revolution will not be televised; it'll be emailed.
/.)\ Stop making sense. Be an Anti Intellectual
\(@/ Be Tao. Live Tao. Feel Tao. But don't do Tao.
Message no. 9
From: Scott Wheelock iscottw@*****.nb.ca
Subject: Reasonable limit on Edges and Flaws
Date: Tue, 03 Aug 1999 10:51:18 -0300
"And now, a Channel 6 editorial reply to Arcady."

<Snip>
] On the negative balance... what's got me going down this road is a player
] who delivered a character to me with -21 points of flaws. I asked him to
] revise it citing my limit of +/- 6 and the email I'd sent him 1 month back
] saying such...

21 is insanity, and an obvious abuse of the system. 'Course, you
guys are new at Shadowrun, did you say that before? Things like this
are expected when you're new ("Hey, look what I can make!").

] I have no such plans but do want to know if the limits I've set are what's
] normal for most people. Even if I did decide I was not setting it right I
] wouldn't change that ruling on him now... too much headache...

I think you're on the right track. For my campaign, I set a
ludicrous amount of restrictions on Attributes, Skills, Building
Points, etc. It made for weak characters, but hopefully the first time
these guys get their butts whupped in a fight, they'll come out of
their corner _thinking_ next time (Palladium players, y'see). It
sounds like a sensible limit, given what others have mentioned.
Hopefully it goes well for you, and hey, you can always change it for
next time 'round.

-Murder of One

To: All Employees
From: Human Resources
Subject: Short Term Disability benefit plan
-------------------------------------------------------------
"We are pleased to make available to you an
additional opportunity to enroll in the Voluntary
STD benefit option."
Message no. 10
From: Kevin Langevin kevinl@******.com
Subject: Reasonable limit on Edges and Flaws
Date: Tue, 3 Aug 1999 11:03:00 -0400
> -----Original Message-----
> From: Arcady [mailto:arcady@***.net]
> Subject: RE: Reasonable limit on Edges and Flaws
>
> Last week he handed me the -21 version. I handed him a
> character sheet and
> told him to revise it. But got nothing until today... I think
> he was hoping
> I'd have second thoughts...
>
> I have no such plans but do want to know if the limits
> I've set are what's
> normal for most people. Even if I did decide I was not
> setting it right I
> wouldn't change that ruling on him now... too much headache...
>

In my game (I'm a player, not the GM), we were required to balance out the
edges and flaws, or have more flaw points than edges. We were also required
to put together a detailed character background, with an explanation of all
flaws and edges included. If the background didn't adequately explain why
the edges or flaws were present, he disallowed them. This did allow for
characters to take a lot of flaws (I think I had 12 points, and around 8
points of edges), but my character background was extremely detailed. It
started out as a timeline, and I kept fleshing it out until I had a
character history from birth to about six months before the game started,
and it was around 40 pages. (I know...excessive, but once I started
writing, I couldn't stop.) As a result, my character is extremely three
dimensional, and he's so much easier to play, because I understand him so
much better than most people understand their characters.

As a side note, one of the other players (who does a lot of sci-fi fan
fiction) attended a writer's convention a couple months back and took a copy
of my background. She showed it to some publisher (who supposedly publishes
SR novels), who read it on the spot, and told her that she wanted to talk to
me about fleshing it out into a novel. Who knows? Maybe I'll be writing an
SR novel someday.

My point is, though, that if a player can come up with a character concept
for whom a lot of flaws or edges make sense, then I think the GM should be
flexible. A good GM should be able to handle most characters who've been
min-maxed. There are some flaws which will push any character over a 6
point limit. What if a player wants a character with serious flashbacks and
a police record? Do you disallow one or the other? Do you allow the player
to take the flaws, but only take 6 points for them? Those are two serious
flaws, and it seems a shame to have a character with a good concept take
those flaws, have to deal with the consequences, but not get the benefits
from the points that they each provide.

I don't know...a player who's taking two allergies, two phobias, bad karma,
and a police record should be slapped, but someone who's taking a police
record, bad temper, and impulsive makes sense. The character has a temper,
gets into fights all the time, and has gotten busted for it. Over 6 points?
You bet. Unreasonable? I don't think so.

Anyway, just my $.020000000 (math spu 3)

-Kev
Message no. 11
From: Mike & Linda Frankl mlfrankl@***.com
Subject: Reasonable limit on Edges and Flaws
Date: Tue, 3 Aug 1999 18:28:42 -0400
Arcady wrote:
> Anyway, what he did with those 21 points was buy some
> killer resources and
> skills... being a point based character (I give my players the option of
> priority or 123 points. They went about 1/2 one way 1/2 the other.).


Well then it sounds like he's doing it to power game another angle rather
than create an interesting character. In my game that usually means I say no
to it. There is a really good reason why players are limited as it tends to
prevent unbalanced characters.

I had a guy who wanted to take 3 phobias one time back when the book first
came out. I asked him if he wanted to actually play a character with deep
seated fears, guess what the answer was.

Tell the guy no and save yourself some grief later on.

;)

Smilin' Jack
Message no. 12
From: Barbie LeVile barbie@********.de
Subject: Reasonable limit on Edges and Flaws
Date: Sat, 07 Aug 1999 15:14:28 +0200
Arcady wrote:
>
> What do those who allow Edges and Flaws tend to set as the limit for how
> many points of them PC's can have?
>
I set no artificial limit, the player will notice fast enough if he gets
into a situation where the charcter gets unplayable :)

--
Barbie

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