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Message no. 1
From: Justin Pinnow <vanyel@*******.NET>
Subject: Recoil and Strength
Date: Mon, 15 Dec 1997 20:57:54 -0500
Hiya folks :)

I use the optional Fields of Fire rules that allow characters with high
Strength attributes to offset recoil from firearms. However, I have found
that some of my players like to take advantage of this in order to save
some nuyen by not buying gas vents, etc. for their guns.

Now, I have never fired a gun, but it would seem to me that trying to
control recoil via your strength alone would be a tiring exercise. Why
would any sane runner continually fight recoil simply to save a few bucks?

Thus, since logic doesn't always prevail, I would like some input on how to
implement a SIMPLE way to penalize folks for constantly offsetting recoil
with strength instead of doing the smart thing and buying a gas vent.

I am thinking something along the lines of a body test to offset stun
damage depending on the amount of recoil being offset by strength.

Any ideas from the list? (Especially those not so gun-challenged?) ;)

Thanks and happy holidays.

Justin :)
Message no. 2
From: losthalo <losthalo@********.COM>
Subject: Re: Recoil and Strength
Date: Mon, 15 Dec 1997 21:25:31 -0500
At 08:57 PM 12/15/97 -0500, you wrote:
>Thus, since logic doesn't always prevail, I would like some input on how to
>implement a SIMPLE way to penalize folks for constantly offsetting recoil
>with strength instead of doing the smart thing and buying a gas vent.
>
>I am thinking something along the lines of a body test to offset stun
>damage depending on the amount of recoil being offset by strength.
>
>Any ideas from the list? (Especially those not so gun-challenged?) ;)

Let them role-play it. "Drek my arms are sore... no, I don't want to help
you work on your deck tonight, man, I'm hurting!"

If you really want a game-mechanic, a light level of stun damage might be
appropriate, but only if they do a LOT of firing, imo. Though of course
I've not the experience of a lot of hich-calibre burst-and-autofire
shooting meself.

Me, I can't imagine a character not wanting the *additional* recoil
compensation of a gas-vent, except perhaps in instances where the weapon
either won't accept one or the lost concealability is too high a price (in
which case they're making intelligent choices, leave 'em alone).


losthalo@********.comGoFa6)7(Im6TJt)Fe(7P!ShMoB4/19.2Bk!cBkc8MBV6sM3ZG
oPuTeiClbMehC6a23=n4bSSH173g4L??96FmT1Ea4@*********************
4h7sM8zSsYnk6BSMmpFNN0393NRfmSLusOH1Whileyouarelisteningyourwillingat
tentionismakingyoumoreandmoreintothepersonyouwanttobecome
Message no. 3
From: David Buehrer <dbuehrer@******.CARL.ORG>
Subject: Re: Recoil and Strength
Date: Tue, 16 Dec 1997 08:03:26 -0700
Justin Pinnow wrote:
/
/ Hiya folks :)
/
/ I use the optional Fields of Fire rules that allow characters with high
/ Strength attributes to offset recoil from firearms. However, I have found
/ that some of my players like to take advantage of this in order to save
/ some nuyen by not buying gas vents, etc. for their guns.

I use the same rules and by your player's logic one of the PCs in my
game saved money on gas vents (a couple hundred nuyen) by replacing
her muscles (a couple 1000 nuyen). Or the PC that spent all his xp
to raise his strength. If the PCs are overcoming recoil with
strength, then they've paid way more than if they used gas vents.
The players may think they're ahead of the game, but their not :)

/ Now, I have never fired a gun, but it would seem to me that trying to
/ control recoil via your strength alone would be a tiring exercise. Why
/ would any sane runner continually fight recoil simply to save a few bucks?

They're stingy. RL example: my wife buys generic toilet paper. I
buy Charmin. From my view it's a difference of a buck for much
softer toilet paper. I've pointed this out but my wife keeps buying
the generic. Go fig. (BTW, I love my wife, I just don't understand
her :) Anyway, let the players do what they want.

-David
--
"Creativity is allowing yourself to make mistakes.
Art is knowing which ones to keep."
--
http://www.geocities.com/TimesSquare/1068/homepage.htm
Message no. 4
From: Lehlan Decker <decker@****.FSU.EDU>
Subject: Re: Recoil and Strength
Date: Tue, 16 Dec 1997 10:08:46 -0500
On Tue, Dec 16, 1997 at 08:03:26AM -0700, David Buehrer wrote:
> Justin Pinnow wrote:
> /
> / Hiya folks :)
> /
> / I use the optional Fields of Fire rules that allow characters with high
> / Strength attributes to offset recoil from firearms. However, I have found
> / that some of my players like to take advantage of this in order to save
> / some nuyen by not buying gas vents, etc. for their guns.
>
> I use the same rules and by your player's logic one of the PCs in my
> game saved money on gas vents (a couple hundred nuyen) by replacing
> her muscles (a couple 1000 nuyen). Or the PC that spent all his xp
> to raise his strength. If the PCs are overcoming recoil with
> strength, then they've paid way more than if they used gas vents.
> The players may think they're ahead of the game, but their not :)
>
> / Now, I have never fired a gun, but it would seem to me that trying to
> / control recoil via your strength alone would be a tiring exercise. Why
> / would any sane runner continually fight recoil simply to save a few bucks?
>
> They're stingy. RL example: my wife buys generic toilet paper. I
> buy Charmin. From my view it's a difference of a buck for much
> softer toilet paper. I've pointed this out but my wife keeps buying
> the generic. Go fig. (BTW, I love my wife, I just don't understand
> her :) Anyway, let the players do what they want.
>
Heh..or to continue the analogy...Kraft Macaroni vs Generic!
And women won't ever understand this stuff..but we love them
anyway. :)
Hmm..this could be going OT real quick...
To bring it back on topic. I see the strength benefit as not
just physical hold the gun on target, but also the increased body
mass etc to absorb the recoil. A shotgun can put a 100 lb
person on the ground, but a 200 lb person can suck up the recoil.


--
--------------------------------------------------------------------
Lehlan Decker 644-4534 Systems Development
decker@****.fsu.edu http://www.scri.fsu.edu/~decker
--------------------------------------------------------------------
Time is the best teacher. Unfortunately it kills all of its students.
Message no. 5
From: Fredrik Lindblom <fredrik.lindblom@******.KALMAR.SE>
Subject: Re: Recoil and Strength
Date: Wed, 17 Dec 1997 10:15:44 +0100
At 10:08 1997-12-16 -0500, you wrote:
<snip trouble with strength and toilet paper>

>To bring it back on topic. I see the strength benefit as not
>just physical hold the gun on target, but also the increased body
>mass etc to absorb the recoil. A shotgun can put a 100 lb
>person on the ground, but a 200 lb person can suck up the recoil.

When I did military service a coupla years back, we had this really fat guy
in our platoon. He was so heavy, that he was able to fire long bursts (up
to ten rounds! well, it had a bipod and it was not a combat situation) of
7.62 machinegun (dunno if that's a LMG or MMG in SR) on full auto with the
only effect on him being a little shake in the fat... :)

Me, on the other hand, at 75 kilos at the time, had difficulties with
anything, including single shots. :) A machinegun has a real kick to it,
and don't believe your eyes when you see Rambo firing one from the hip. He
wouldn't hit a barn from the inside, no matter if he's pumped iron for
years...

As for SR mechanics, I use the table in FoF, but instead of Strength I use
an average of Strength and Body. And don't come complaining that body is
physical health and all that. In my campaign, whatever Body the character
has before adding karma, cyber etc., indicates that character's physical size.

With this rule the characters have to improve both attributes to get a
great deal of recoil compensation. Most of my players (even the munchies)
don't have more than 1 or at best 2 points. And if they do improve it
enough, they deserve what they get.

Role-playing-wise, on the other hand... Giv'em hell! :)

/FL
Message no. 6
From: Gurth <gurth@******.NL>
Subject: Re: Recoil and Strength
Date: Wed, 17 Dec 1997 11:45:10 +0100
Fredrik Lindblom said on 10:15/17 Dec 97...

> When I did military service a coupla years back, we had this really fat
> guy in our platoon. He was so heavy, that he was able to fire long
> bursts (up to ten rounds! well, it had a bipod and it was not a combat
> situation) of 7.62 machinegun (dunno if that's a LMG or MMG in SR) on
> full auto with the only effect on him being a little shake in the
> fat... :)

AFAIK (never having fired a weapon in my life, but having read a lot about
it) using a machinegun is better done like someone else said: use the
recoil rather than try to compensate it too much. I believe German
machinegunners in WWII were taught to aim between the target's belt and
boots and then let the recoil drag the aim up the target.

BTW, I'd call it an MMG, although I've never really found out what the
standard GPMG in Sweden is. A modified FN MAG, IIRC, but I'm not sure...

> Me, on the other hand, at 75 kilos at the time, had difficulties with
> anything, including single shots. :) A machinegun has a real kick to it,
> and don't believe your eyes when you see Rambo firing one from the hip. He
> wouldn't hit a barn from the inside, no matter if he's pumped iron for
> years...

Nonetheless, look at photos from Vietnam sometime. Quite a lot of them
show machinegunners carrying an M60 on its shoulder strap, firing it from
the hip. Although Vietnam is notorious for its ratio of rounds fired to
casualties inflicted, it's not exclusive to that war.

Rambo is a movie, and in movies the good guys always hit and the bad guys
miss either completely or at least all vital areas. I don't really see
many people firing a GPMG with one hand and hold the ammo with the
other...

--
Gurth@******.nl - http://www.xs4all.nl/~gurth/index.html - UIN5044116
It's crap but we love it!
-> NERPS Project Leader & Unofficial Shadowrun Guru <-
-> The Plastic Warriors Page: http://www.xs4all.nl/~gurth/plastic.html <-
-> The New Character Mortuary: http://www.electricferret.com/mortuary/ <-

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Message no. 7
From: Fredrik Lindblom <fredrik.lindblom@******.KALMAR.SE>
Subject: Re: Recoil and Strength
Date: Wed, 17 Dec 1997 12:07:21 +0100
At 11:45 1997-12-17 +0100, you wrote:
>BTW, I'd call it an MMG, although I've never really found out what the
>standard GPMG in Sweden is. A modified FN MAG, IIRC, but I'm not sure...

Uhm...could be. Most guns used in Swdwen are H&K or FN. They re-name all
equipment here in Sweden (never told me why). The Swedish designation is
"KSP-58" which doesn't say squat about what it really is, only that the
Swedish army started using it in 1958. They've got a new machinegun (5.56)
now, called "KSP-90". Guess when they started using it? :)

>Nonetheless, look at photos from Vietnam sometime. Quite a lot of them
>show machinegunners carrying an M60 on its shoulder strap, firing it from
>the hip. Although Vietnam is notorious for its ratio of rounds fired to
>casualties inflicted, it's not exclusive to that war.

We were taught that the MG was _mainly_ used for suppressive fire and you
weren't really expected to hit anything with it at extended ranges. Just
make the enemy shit in their pants in the trench, really. Then again, if
you actually hit, no harm to it. (now _there's_ a contradiction... :) For
precision fire, use an assault rifle.

>Rambo is a movie, and in movies the good guys always hit and the bad guys
>miss either completely or at least all vital areas. I don't really see
>many people firing a GPMG with one hand and hold the ammo with the
>other...

Nope :) Movies are moivies after all...

/FL
Message no. 8
From: Mon goose <landsquid@*******.COM>
Subject: Re: Recoil and Strength
Date: Wed, 17 Dec 1997 11:22:54 PST
>Now, I have never fired a gun, but it would seem to me that trying to
>control recoil via your strength alone would be a tiring exercise. Why
would any sane runner continually fight recoil simply to save a few
bucks?
>

In real life, some people buy .357 revolvers insted of 10mm automatics.
Samebasic round, revolver has no recoil comp other than mass. Why buy
it? Well, thercoil doesn't bothersome people. Some people won't buy
either, and stick to a .38 or something, so as not to break a wrist.
Strength is a pretty good indicator of how beafy your wrists are, and if
the recoild isn't a problem, WHY spend the money?
As for taking stun or someything for shooting, how many rounds are these
characters firing? 1000 per day? That would be tiring. A combats
worth is not enough to incur a penalty (except maybe when typing 20
minutes later. They can always get a cushy grip for the gun. :)
Personally, I think the recoil mechanics in SRcoulduse some work, and
certain guns should have STR/ body/ mass minimums for effective use, but
its not that big a deal.
Now, if somebody doesn't know HOW to hold a gun properly, they could get
hurt. Thats where the "rule of 1's" and "combat accidents" come in.


______________________________________________________
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Message no. 9
From: Craig J Wilhelm Jr <craigjwjr@*********.NET>
Subject: Re: Recoil and Strength
Date: Wed, 17 Dec 1997 17:07:53 -0500
>When I did military service a coupla years back, we had this really fat guy
>in our platoon. He was so heavy, that he was able to fire long bursts (up
>to ten rounds! well, it had a bipod and it was not a combat situation) of
>7.62 machinegun (dunno if that's a LMG or MMG in SR)

The US Army calls the M-60 a LMG, at least they did when I was still in it.

>on full auto with the
>only effect on him being a little shake in the fat... :)

Hehe! Sounds like my Dad...

>Me, on the other hand, at 75 kilos at the time, had difficulties with
>anything, including single shots. :) A machinegun has a real kick to it,
>and don't believe your eyes when you see Rambo firing one from the hip. He
>wouldn't hit a barn from the inside, no matter if he's pumped iron for
>years...

When it comes to recoil, strength really does help a lot, especially with
pistols, I know this from personal experience. If you're arms (especially
wrists and hands) are good and strong, you can hold a pistol down on the
target pretty well.
I look to the time when I get the pleasure to shoot with my sister (she's
a cop), and my Mom (yep, my whole family is a bunch of gun nuts...). My
sister is about 5'2", and weighs a little over 120#, but I know she's
really pretty darn strong, and she plinks right along just fine with me and
my Dad, keeping up and keeping accurate with us, no matter how fast we
shoot (her service weapon is the same Glock 10 mm as the one I own, she
even uses the same ammo I do). Now my Mom is about 5'7" and weighs about a
130#, but she's nowhere near as strong in the arms as my sister, and when
she shoots my pistol, she can barely hold on to it, the thing waves around
pretty wildly, which explains why she loves her .22.
A persons weight certainly does make a difference when it comes to rifles
or shotguns. Neither my mom or my sister will even touch my goose gun (10
gage) or my big game rifle (a .338 Winchester magnum), the guns throw them
both around like rag dolls.

>As for SR mechanics, I use the table in FoF, but instead of Strength I use
>an average of Strength and Body. And don't come complaining that body is
>physical health and all that. In my campaign, whatever Body the character
>has before adding karma, cyber etc., indicates that character's physical
size.

No complaints, but, what kind of body rating do you give a 6 1/2 foot
tall, 300 lb tub-o-lard who hasn't exercised a day in his life? Me I kind
of see size as a mix of Strength, Body, and however the player describes
his character to look like.

>With this rule the characters have to improve both attributes to get a
>great deal of recoil compensation. Most of my players (even the munchies)
>don't have more than 1 or at best 2 points. And if they do improve it
>enough, they deserve what they get.
>
>Role-playing-wise, on the other hand... Giv'em hell! :)

Sounds good to me!


Craig J Wilhelm Jr
Life's just one damned thing after another.
Afterlife RPG Page

http://home.earthlink.net/~craigjwjr/arpgp/
UIN: 1864690
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Message no. 10
From: "Paul J. Adam" <shadowrn@********.DEMON.CO.UK>
Subject: Re: Recoil and Strength
Date: Wed, 17 Dec 1997 23:43:22 +0000
In article <199712172206.OAA07083@******.it.earthlink.net>, Craig J
Wilhelm Jr <craigjwjr@*********.NET> writes
> No complaints, but, what kind of body rating do you give a 6 1/2 foot
>tall, 300 lb tub-o-lard who hasn't exercised a day in his life? Me I kind
>of see size as a mix of Strength, Body, and however the player describes
>his character to look like.

Or the 5' 7", lean-as-whipcord Parachute Regiment sergeant-major who was
my infantry skills instructor? Terrifyingly strong and fit, yet by FASA
rules a 300lb couch potato is physically tougher because Body scales
linearly with mass.

Personally I prefer systems like Call of Cthulhu for that aspect:
Strength (how much can I lift / how hard can I hit), Constitution (how
fit am I, how tough am I) and Size (how big am I) are seperate but
interrelated.

Thus, damage in combat is modified by Strength and Size. Hit points are
based on Size and Constitution. It seems fairly sensible.
--
There are four kinds of homicide: felonious, excusable, justifiable and
praiseworthy...

Paul J. Adam paul@********.demon.co.uk
Message no. 11
From: John E Pederson <lobo1@****.COM>
Subject: Re: Recoil and Strength)
Date: Wed, 17 Dec 1997 21:44:02 -0500
On Wed, 17 Dec 1997 20:13:55 -0500 Jeremiah Stevens
<jeremiah@********.EDU> writes:

>Usually comparing body and strength works. If the body is higher, then
the
>person is overweight, if strength is higher, the person is considered
well
>built for their weight. Thus a person with B 5 and S 1 would be a big
fat
>wimp, while someone with a B 2 and S 5 would be a scrawny little tough
guy.


Not quite that simple: Body doesn't relate only to size. It also relates
to endurance, general health (in resistance to toxins and pathogens), and
damage resistance ability. Size figures partly into toxin resistance, and
damage resistance, but a guy who is seriously... umm... "weight inclined"
;) isn't likely to have much in the way of endurance... That Body: 5 says
otherwise.

And it is possible (though highly improbable) to have strength without
endurance to match.


--
John Pederson "Oh my God! They killed Kenny!"
aka Canthros, shapeshifter-mage --South Park
lobo1@****.com canthros1@***.com john.e.pederson@***********.edu
http://www.geocities.com/Area51/Lair/4864 ICQ UIN 3190186
Message no. 12
From: Jeremiah Stevens <jeremiah@********.EDU>
Subject: Re: Recoil and Strength)
Date: Wed, 17 Dec 1997 22:13:35 -0500
On Wed, 17 Dec 1997, John E Pederson wrote:
>
> Not quite that simple: Body doesn't relate only to size. It also relates
> to endurance, general health (in resistance to toxins and pathogens), and
> damage resistance ability. Size figures partly into toxin resistance, and
> damage resistance, but a guy who is seriously... umm... "weight inclined"
> ;) isn't likely to have much in the way of endurance... That Body: 5 says
> otherwise.
>
> And it is possible (though highly improbable) to have strength without
> endurance to match.

Agreed. The example I was using was simply for dealing with stength-body
relations. Personally, I think that the Body stat is used for too much,
and when calculating things like endurence, strength and skills
(athletics, for example) should be taken into consideration.
Message no. 13
From: Hernandez <hernandez@********.COM>
Subject: Re: Recoil and Strength
Date: Wed, 17 Dec 1997 19:33:10 -0700
From: Gurth <gurth@******.NL>
Subject: Re: Recoil and Strength


>Nonetheless, look at photos from Vietnam sometime. Quite a lot of
them
>show machinegunners carrying an M60 on its shoulder strap, firing it
from
>the hip.

Yeah, you *can* fire it from the hip, but your aim goes all to
hell. Shooting from the hip is a quick and easy way to lay down
suppressive fire. And it *is* rather difficult to try an keep the
barrel down when firing from the hip.

>Rambo is a movie, and in movies the good guys always hit and the bad
guys
>miss either completely or at least all vital areas.

Totally agree.


MoonShadow
hernandez@********.com
ICQ 3220365
May the god, goddess, or deity of your choice bless,
curse, or completely ignore you, as per your wishes
Message no. 14
From: Gurth <gurth@******.NL>
Subject: Re: Recoil and Strength
Date: Thu, 18 Dec 1997 11:48:37 +0100
Hernandez said on 19:33/17 Dec 97...

> Yeah, you *can* fire [an M60] from the hip, but your aim goes all to
> hell. Shooting from the hip is a quick and easy way to lay down
> suppressive fire. And it *is* rather difficult to try an keep the
> barrel down when firing from the hip.

I didn't claim they actually hit much, did I? ;) This is also why I give a
+2 TN modifier in SR to people who don't use their weapon's sights, and
have expanded the recoil rules to take how the weapon is braced into
account. It might lengthen the necessary calculations in combat slightly,
but now firing a machinegun from the hip will usually make you miss with a
lot of bullets rather than hit as per normal SR.

> >Rambo is a movie, and in movies the good guys always hit and the bad guys
> >miss either completely or at least all vital areas.
>
> Totally agree.

OTOH since SR is a cinematic game, maybe PCs should be able to use MMGs in
one hand...

Nah :)

--
Gurth@******.nl - http://www.xs4all.nl/~gurth/index.html - UIN5044116
It's crap but we love it!
-> NERPS Project Leader & Unofficial Shadowrun Guru <-
-> The Plastic Warriors Page: http://www.xs4all.nl/~gurth/plastic.html <-
-> The New Character Mortuary: http://www.electricferret.com/mortuary/ <-

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Message no. 15
From: Adam Treloar <guardian@*******.DIALIX.COM.AU>
Subject: Re: Recoil and Strength
Date: Fri, 19 Dec 1997 01:53:10 +1100
On Thu, 18 Dec 1997, Gurth wrote:

> > Yeah, you *can* fire [an M60] from the hip, but your aim goes all to
> > hell. Shooting from the hip is a quick and easy way to lay down
> > suppressive fire. And it *is* rather difficult to try an keep the
> > barrel down when firing from the hip.
>
> I didn't claim they actually hit much, did I? ;) This is also why I give a
> +2 TN modifier in SR to people who don't use their weapon's sights, and
> have expanded the recoil rules to take how the weapon is braced into
> account. It might lengthen the necessary calculations in combat slightly,
> but now firing a machinegun from the hip will usually make you miss with a
> lot of bullets rather than hit as per normal SR.

*grins* I STILL wouldn't let an amateur (ie skill < 3) near a MMG... :P

> > >Rambo is a movie, and in movies the good guys always hit and the bad guys
> > >miss either completely or at least all vital areas.
> >
> > Totally agree.
>
> OTOH since SR is a cinematic game, maybe PCs should be able to use MMGs in
> one hand...

Ohmygod, you mean we're not supposed to? :) Rambo is all well and good,
but I fail to see how anyone can fire from the hip like him on full auto
fire and actually kill with 90% of the bullets... Oh, and being under fire
himself from nearly as many. :P Must be a good-guy gun. God help us if
the bad guys ever get hold of a working version.

Guardian

------------------------------------------------------------------------------
"Any sufficiently advanced magic is indestinguishable from technology.
So there."
Adam Treloar aka Guardian
s777317@*****.student.gu.edu.au http://www.geocities.com/TimesSquare/1900/
------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Message no. 16
From: John E Pederson <lobo1@****.COM>
Subject: Re: Recoil and Strength)
Date: Thu, 18 Dec 1997 10:21:50 -0500
On Wed, 17 Dec 1997 22:13:35 -0500 Jeremiah Stevens
<jeremiah@********.EDU> writes:

<<Agreed. The example I was using was simply for dealing with
stength-body relations. Personally, I think that the Body stat is used
for too much, and when calculating things like endurence, strength and
skills (athletics, for example) should be taken into consideration.>>


Body isn't the only stat that gets used for multiple things that don't
quite match up. I could easily split Body into five separate attributes,
and could do the same with Intelligence and Charisma. At times, I've even
considered doing it, just to see how well it would work:)


--
John Pederson "Oh my God! They killed Kenny!"
aka Canthros, shapeshifter-mage --South Park
lobo1@****.com canthros1@***.com john.e.pederson@***********.edu
http://www.geocities.com/Area51/Lair/4864 ICQ UIN 3190186

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