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Message no. 1
From: "Gorrilla, Chris" <CGorrill@***.DrydenNY.attgis.com>
Subject: Recording devices
Date: Wed, 19 Jun 96 14:43:00 PDT
Hi all,

After lurking here for some time, I thought I'd try a question. Seeing
the thread on manifesting brought up this idea, if a mage casts a
physical illusion spell, it can be sensed by your standard sec-cam as
well as your standard sec-guard. If this same mage were to cast a
mana-based illusion spell, it would only affect your standard sec-guard -
the camera would see zippo.

Ok, somebody has equipped your standard sec-guard with cybereyes - since
he's paid essence for the eyes, he will see the mana-based illusion spell
(I assume). Now, he's also got a recorder up there in the ol' cranium (or
wherever), the question of course is - will the stuff he sees - the
mana-based illusion spell - show up on the recording when played back,
either for him or for his boss who wants to know why he let runners past
the door?

I apologize if this has been gone over before or if it's in the FAQ.
Seemed like an interesting question.

Chris
Message no. 2
From: Mike Elkins <MikeE@*********.com>
Subject: Recording devices -Reply
Date: Wed, 19 Jun 1996 14:58:25 -0500
Chris Gorrilla wrote:
>the question of course is - will the stuff he sees - the mana-based illusion spell
> - show up on the recording when played back, either for him or for his boss
> who wants to know why he let runners past the door?

A very interesting question! My take on it is that the mana spell effects his mind,
so that the recording will be of what really happened. If the spell is still in force
when he views the recording, it might fool him then too (yup, that's what I saw) or
not, depending on exactly how you think the spell works. Does it implant a
hypnotic suggestion like thing (which would persist), or does it continuously
"flash" astral subliminal messages which would not be recorded. I think you
could
do it either way. I think I'd rule that most illusion spells would probably not persist,
and so if you checked the recording even one second after you recorded it, you
would spot the difference.

Don't allow munchkins to use this to become immune to illusions, though.
Inspecting a recording should take some time (and would be a complex action).

Double-Domed Mike
Message no. 3
From: Hairy Smurf <ab130f92@*******.adelphi.edu>
Subject: Re: Recording devices -Reply
Date: Wed, 19 Jun 1996 15:22:56 -0400 (EDT)
At 14:58 6/19/96 -0500, you wrote:
>Chris Gorrilla wrote:
>>the question of course is - will the stuff he sees - the mana-based
illusion spell
>> - show up on the recording when played back, either for him or for his
boss
>> who wants to know why he let runners past the door?
>
>A very interesting question! My take on it is that the mana spell effects
his mind,
>so that the recording will be of what really happened. If the spell is
still in force
>when he views the recording, it might fool him then too (yup, that's what I
saw) or
>not, depending on exactly how you think the spell works. Does it implant a
>hypnotic suggestion like thing (which would persist), or does it continuously
>"flash" astral subliminal messages which would not be recorded. I think
you could
>do it either way. I think I'd rule that most illusion spells would
probably not persist,
>and so if you checked the recording even one second after you recorded it, you
>would spot the difference.
>
>Don't allow munchkins to use this to become immune to illusions, though.
>Inspecting a recording should take some time (and would be a complex action).
>
>Double-Domed Mike
>

I disagree. Even though the illusions affects the mind it would not affect
the recording. Yes the guard paid essense for it but it not part of the
mind's proccesses. It is a piece of machinery inside the guard that allows
him to do something he normally can't do. he would see it through the
cybereyes because the cyber eyes do not process the information. The mind
does. Whereas the recorder processes it's own images, and as a machine is
unaffected by the mana based spell. Sounds like a good way to drive someone
insane. "But I say it!" "Sorry but your recorder didn't so you must have
been seeing things."

Sasquatch

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| Star Trek Red Shirts always die before the first commercial. |
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Message no. 4
From: Brian Johnson <john0375@****.tc.umn.edu>
Subject: Re: Recording devices -Reply
Date: Wed, 19 Jun 1996 14:25:26 -0500 (CDT)
Ok. I'd say he'd see the illusion (brain sees it)
Recorder doesn't (not physical, no photons etc involved.)
On playback (of course) no illusion

In this case, the guard better hope there is a magician on staff to see the
background count created by the spell (and that their visitor didn't
Cleanse the area before they left). Anyhow, the intrusion would be on
the security camera.

So if you hooked up a sense link in some sort of feedback unit with a small
(1 ms) delay, would you be blocked from percieving mana based illusions?
Say penalize reaction by 1, initiative the same?
Message no. 5
From: Mike Elkins <MikeE@*********.com>
Subject: Re: Recording devices -Reply -Reply
Date: Wed, 19 Jun 1996 15:34:17 -0500
Sasquatch said
>I disagree.

actually, I think we agree. What you wrote seems exactly like what I meant.
Sorry if I wasn't clear enough.

Double-Domed Mike
Message no. 6
From: Mike Elkins <MikeE@*********.com>
Subject: Re: Recording devices -Reply -Reply
Date: Wed, 19 Jun 1996 15:43:31 -0500
>So if you hooked up a sense link in some sort of feedback unit with a small
>(1 ms) delay, would you be blocked from percieving mana based illusions?
>Say penalize reaction by 1, initiative the same?

I would say that, like cybereyes, if all your senses came from the recorder, you
would still be fooled if all there is is a 1ms delay. If you superimposed a 1/4 sec
delay view inside a little window in your visual field, that would work, but would be
VERY distracting, at LEAST a +3 TN to all tasks.

A more practical way to do this (from a Corp point of view) is to have a live guard
with another guard watching via camera in the command center, wth the two
guards in radio contact. "Hey, wake up down there, that troll looks very
suspicious!", "What troll, all I see is a little old lady?" "Code 99!
Code 99! magical
intrusion!"

Double-Domed Mike
Message no. 7
From: Hairy Smurf <ab130f92@*******.adelphi.edu>
Subject: Re: Recording devices -Reply
Date: Wed, 19 Jun 1996 15:50:08 -0400 (EDT)
At 14:25 6/19/96 -0500, you wrote:
>
>Ok. I'd say he'd see the illusion (brain sees it)
>Recorder doesn't (not physical, no photons etc involved.)
>On playback (of course) no illusion
>
>In this case, the guard better hope there is a magician on staff to see the
>background count created by the spell (and that their visitor didn't
>Cleanse the area before they left). Anyhow, the intrusion would be on
>the security camera.
>
>So if you hooked up a sense link in some sort of feedback unit with a small
>(1 ms) delay, would you be blocked from percieving mana based illusions?
>Say penalize reaction by 1, initiative the same?
>
>

Depends, What if the spell affects the brain directly without going through
the senses of the target individual. Then nothing mechanical could be done
it counter act the spell's effects.

Sasquatch

--------------------------------------------------------------------
| |
| If Stormtroopers can't hit the side of a barn, and |
| Star Trek Red Shirts always die before the first commercial. |
| What happens when they fight each other? |
| |
| ab130f92@*******.adelphi.edu |
| tech@*******.adelphi.edu blair@*****.adelphi.edu |
| No Website (No time to make one) |
--------------------------------------------------------------------
Message no. 8
From: Hairy Smurf <ab130f92@*******.adelphi.edu>
Subject: Re: Recording devices -Reply -Reply
Date: Wed, 19 Jun 1996 15:50:11 -0400 (EDT)
At 15:34 6/19/96 -0500, you wrote:
>Sasquatch said
>>I disagree.
>
>actually, I think we agree. What you wrote seems exactly like what I meant.
>Sorry if I wasn't clear enough.
>
>Double-Domed Mike
>
>

You said,
>If the spell is still in force
>when he views the recording, it might fool him then too (yup, that's what I
saw) or
>not, depending on exactly how you think the spell works.

Which to me means the recording recorded the spell's affects. If the
recording can't record them then it couldn't be affecting anyone who saw the
recording latter. Sorry. :)

Sasquatch

--------------------------------------------------------------------
| |
| If Stormtroopers can't hit the side of a barn, and |
| Star Trek Red Shirts always die before the first commercial. |
| What happens when they fight each other? |
| |
| ab130f92@*******.adelphi.edu |
| tech@*******.adelphi.edu blair@*****.adelphi.edu |
| No Website (No time to make one) |
--------------------------------------------------------------------
Message no. 9
From: dbuehrer@****.org (David Buehrer)
Subject: Re: Recording devices
Date: Wed, 19 Jun 1996 14:03:34 -0600 (MDT)
Gorrilla, Chris wrote:
|
|Ok, somebody has equipped your standard sec-guard with cybereyes - since
|he's paid essence for the eyes, he will see the mana-based illusion spell
|(I assume). Now, he's also got a recorder up there in the ol' cranium (or
|wherever), the question of course is - will the stuff he sees - the
|mana-based illusion spell - show up on the recording when played back,
|either for him or for his boss who wants to know why he let runners past
|the door?

I would let him see the illusion but would rule that the recorder would
not record...uh...wait a sec. If his cybereyes see the illusion cuz he
paid essance for it, and the recorder gets the image from the
cybereyes, then the recorder should record the illusion. But it's an
illusion (not there) so there's no image for the recorder to record...
hmmmmm.

The guard paid the essence for the cybereyes, so he can see the
illusion. I think the essence is the key to this. Since they cybereyes
are a part of his lifeforce *he* can see the illusion. I don't think
his cybereyes are actually seeing the illusion (and a detail oriented
GM might rule that he sees a double image (what he sees, and what his
eyes see)). And even though he paid essence for the recorder it
wouldn't "see" the illusion either (since it's technological).

Did that make any sense at all?

-David

/^\/^\/^\/^\/^\/^\/^\/^\ dbuehrer@****.org /^\/^\/^\/^\/^\/^\/^\/^\
"His thoughts tumbled in his head, making and breaking alliances like
underpants in a dryer without Cling Free."
~~~~~~http://www.geocities.com/TimesSquare/1068/homepage.html~~~~~~
Message no. 10
From: Mike Elkins <MikeE@*********.com>
Subject: Re: Recording devices -Reply -Reply -Reply
Date: Wed, 19 Jun 1996 16:14:31 -0500
>Which to me means the recording recorded the spell's affects. If the recording
>can't record them then it couldn't be affecting anyone who saw the recording
>latter

No, what I meant to imply was that if the spell worked like a hypnotic suggestion
AND was still being sustained while THAT PERSON reviewed the recording, he or
she might see what he/she expects to see in that recording, while the boss would
see what really happened. It depends on how the spell was implemented. I don't
think that most illusions would work this way, but there was one custom spell that
was described in the "Silver Angel" adventure (part of the SRI GM Screen) that
did, so others could be created that would too.

Double-Domed Mike
Message no. 11
From: Hairy Smurf <ab130f92@*******.adelphi.edu>
Subject: Re: Recording devices -Reply -Reply -Reply
Date: Wed, 19 Jun 1996 16:30:42 -0400 (EDT)
At 16:14 6/19/96 -0500, you wrote:
>>Which to me means the recording recorded the spell's affects. If the recording
>>can't record them then it couldn't be affecting anyone who saw the recording
>>latter
>
>No, what I meant to imply was that if the spell worked like a hypnotic
suggestion
>AND was still being sustained while THAT PERSON reviewed the recording, he or
>she might see what he/she expects to see in that recording, while the boss
would
>see what really happened. It depends on how the spell was implemented. I
don't
>think that most illusions would work this way, but there was one custom
spell that
>was described in the "Silver Angel" adventure (part of the SRI GM Screen)
that
>did, so others could be created that would too.
>
>Double-Domed Mike
>

The See-Me Not spell? I don't see how that could be the same. That spell is
implemented beforehand. It doesn't involve recording devices. Explain.

Sasquatch

--------------------------------------------------------------------
| |
| If Stormtroopers can't hit the side of a barn, and |
| Star Trek Red Shirts always die before the first commercial. |
| What happens when they fight each other? |
| |
| ab130f92@*******.adelphi.edu |
| tech@*******.adelphi.edu blair@*****.adelphi.edu |
| No Website (No time to make one) |
--------------------------------------------------------------------
Message no. 12
From: Mike Elkins <MikeE@*********.com>
Subject: Re: Recording devices -Reply -Reply -Reply -Reply
Date: Wed, 19 Jun 1996 16:43:15 -0500
The "See-Me-Not" spell (thanks, I had forgotten the name) affects the target's
mind, and causes him to ignore the person even when he sees her on a TV
screen. If you were subject of a See-Me-Not spell, ignored someone because of
it, then rewound your headware "tape", and replayed it, you would ignore the
person in the recording too. But if you waited till the spell wore off, you would
then be able to see the person in the recording. A third party, not subject to the
spell, would always have been able to see the person in the recording.

That's all I meant, not a big deal.

Double-Domed Mike
Message no. 13
From: Hairy Smurf <ab130f92@*******.adelphi.edu>
Subject: Re: Recording devices -Reply -Reply -Reply -Reply
Date: Wed, 19 Jun 1996 17:01:04 -0400 (EDT)
At 16:43 6/19/96 -0500, you wrote:
>The "See-Me-Not" spell (thanks, I had forgotten the name) affects the
target's
>mind, and causes him to ignore the person even when he sees her on a TV
>screen. If you were subject of a See-Me-Not spell, ignored someone because of
>it, then rewound your headware "tape", and replayed it, you would ignore the
>person in the recording too. But if you waited till the spell wore off,
you would
>then be able to see the person in the recording. A third party, not
subject to the
>spell, would always have been able to see the person in the recording.
>
>That's all I meant, not a big deal.
>
>Double-Domed Mike
>

Right but it affects the target's mind, not the tape. The tape see raelity
and is not actually affected by the spell, which is what we were both saying
anyway. I just got confused as to why it was brought up when we had alraedy
decided on our points. Kinda beating a dead horse thing. :)


Sasquatch

--------------------------------------------------------------------
| |
| If Stormtroopers can't hit the side of a barn, and |
| Star Trek Red Shirts always die before the first commercial. |
| What happens when they fight each other? |
| |
| ab130f92@*******.adelphi.edu |
| tech@*******.adelphi.edu blair@*****.adelphi.edu |
| No Website (No time to make one) |
--------------------------------------------------------------------
Message no. 14
From: "Sascha Pabst" <Sascha.Pabst@**********.Uni-Oldenburg.DE>
Subject: Re: Recording devices -Reply -Reply -Reply -Reply
Date: Thu, 20 Jun 1996 19:46:31 +0200
Who does append this ****-Reply to the Subject line??? It's getting silly!

On 19.06.96, Hairy Smurf wrote about "Re: Recording devices -Reply -Reply -Reply
-Reply":
[See-Me-Not-Spell]
> [snip, to constructive :-)] Kinda beating a dead horse thing. :)
Uh... a necrophile Sasquatch! Watch out :-)

Sascha

--
+---___---------+----------------------------------------+--------------------+
| / / _______ | Jhary-a-Conel aka Sascha Pabst |The one who does not|
| / /_/ ____/ |Sascha.Pabst@**********.Uni-Oldenburg.de| learn from history |
| \___ __/ | | is bound to live |
|==== \_/ ======| *Wearing hats is just a way of life* | through it again. |
|LOGOUT FASCISM!| - Me | |
+------------- http://www.informatik.uni-oldenburg.de/~jhary -----------------+
Message no. 15
From: foreshadow@****.com (Mathew T Schaffer)
Subject: Re: Recording devices
Date: Sat, 29 Jun 1996 23:12:25 PST
On Wed, 19 Jun 96 14:43:00 PDT "Gorrilla, Chris"
<CGorrill@***.DrydenNY.attgis.com> writes:
>
>Hi all,
>
>After lurking here for some time, I thought I'd try a question. Seeing
>
>the thread on manifesting brought up this idea, if a mage casts a
>physical illusion spell, it can be sensed by your standard sec-cam as
>
>well as your standard sec-guard. If this same mage were to cast a
>mana-based illusion spell, it would only affect your standard
>sec-guard -
>the camera would see zippo.
>
>Ok, somebody has equipped your standard sec-guard with cybereyes -
>since
>he's paid essence for the eyes, he will see the mana-based illusion
>spell
>(I assume). Now, he's also got a recorder up there in the ol' cranium
>(or
>wherever), the question of course is - will the stuff he sees - the
>mana-based illusion spell - show up on the recording when played back,
>
>either for him or for his boss who wants to know why he let runners
>past
>the door?

If he paid Essence for the recorder, the spell works (this includes a
datajack hookup (essence was paid for the Datajack). If it's say a
goggle set, with a camera on the front and screens next to his eyes, he'll see right
through the spell.
Message no. 16
From: Luc <rjwate01@*****.louisville.edu>
Subject: Re: Recording devices
Date: Mon, 1 Jul 1996 02:06:03 -0500 (EDT)
> If he paid Essence for the recorder, the spell works (this includes a
> datajack hookup (essence was paid for the Datajack). If it's say a
> goggle set, with a camera on the front and screens next to his eyes, he'll see right
through the spell.

But the illusion wouldn't be ineffect on the data of the recording if viewed
by anyone else or transfered out of head memory since then essence hasn't been
paid on the new viewing device.

--
Luc AKA BobW

EXCUSE ME! EXCUSE ME! EXCUSE ME!
BUT THE CORPSE STILL HAS THE FLOOR!
--Kevin Spacey as Lloyd in The Ref (1994)

EMail: rjwate01@*****.louisville.edu
Web : http://www.louisville.edu/~rjwate01/

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