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Message no. 1
From: Matt Hufstetler <gt2778a@*****.GATECH.EDU>
Subject: Reduce Attribute Spells
Date: Wed, 7 Dec 1994 15:14:30 -0500
Anyone ever cast a -4 CHARISMA spell on your average run of the mill
Sammy? After I blurted this out to our gaming group I immediately
promised that NONE of my mages would ever learn it.

Matt H.
Message no. 2
From: Jason Ustica <usticaj@****.PR.ERAU.EDU>
Subject: Re: Reduce Attribute Spells
Date: Wed, 7 Dec 1994 14:21:59 -0700
On Wed, 7 Dec 1994, Matt Hufstetler wrote:

> Anyone ever cast a -4 CHARISMA spell on your average run of the mill
> Sammy? After I blurted this out to our gaming group I immediately
> promised that NONE of my mages would ever learn it.

Perhaps I'm missing something here, but aren't most sammies pretty
uncharismatic anyway? Who cares if you nail one with a -4 Charisma? Then
he (or she) would just be REALLY ugly.

--Jason--
Message no. 3
From: wadycki andrew m <wadycki@***.CSO.UIUC.EDU>
Subject: Re: Reduce Attribute Spells
Date: Wed, 7 Dec 1994 15:25:54 -0600
On Wed, 7 Dec 1994, Matt Hufstetler wrote:

> Anyone ever cast a -4 CHARISMA spell on your average run of the mill
> Sammy? After I blurted this out to our gaming group I immediately
> promised that NONE of my mages would ever learn it.
>
> Matt H.
>

A friend of mine GMed a run that had a mage casting -4 charmisma on the
runners. I think their mage went out of commision first. It did spice
it all up.

-Andrew
Message no. 4
From: Stainless Steel Rat <ratinox@***.NEU.EDU>
Subject: Reduce Attribute Spells
Date: Wed, 7 Dec 1994 16:30:59 -0500
>>>>> "Jason" == Jason Ustica <usticaj@****.PR.ERAU.EDU>
writes:

Jason> On Wed, 7 Dec 1994, Matt Hufstetler wrote:
>> Anyone ever cast a -4 CHARISMA spell on your average run of the mill
>> Sammy? After I blurted this out to our gaming group I immediately
>> promised that NONE of my mages would ever learn it.

Jason> Perhaps I'm missing something here, but aren't most sammies pretty
Jason> uncharismatic anyway? Who cares if you nail one with a -4 Charisma?
Jason> Then he (or she) would just be REALLY ugly.

Go read up on what happens when an atrribute gets reduced to 0.

It's not pretty (pun intended).

--
Rat <ratinox@***.neu.edu> | If Happy Fun Ball begins to smoke, get
http://www.ccs.neu.edu/home/ratinox | away immediately. Seek shelter and cover
PGP Public Key: Ask for one today! | head.
Message no. 5
From: "Wesley W. Walker" <wwalker@****.UARK.EDU>
Subject: Re: Reduce Attribute Spells
Date: Thu, 8 Dec 1994 10:54:36 -0600
On Wed, 7 Dec 1994, Jason Ustica wrote:
>
> Perhaps I'm missing something here, but aren't most sammies pretty
> uncharismatic anyway? Who cares if you nail one with a -4 Charisma? Then
> he (or she) would just be REALLY ugly.
>

Perhaps I'm missin the boat here.. but I thought Charisma had
*NOTHING* to do with looks.. last time I looked it up it had something to
do with the personality of a person.. not their looks.

What this spell -does- do is make everyone in the room with that
person _really_ F**KIN +HATE+ the targets guts.. like to the extent that
+EVERYONE+ in the same room jumps his ass.. :) Get it?

Wes

\||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||/
- Wes W. Walker (wwalker@****.uark.edu) * "But...Ego *IS* everything." -
- CSCI Major and General Slave * -
- Artiste Wanna-be (accepting donations)* -Me -
/||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||\
Message no. 6
From: John H Stawarz <jstawarz@****.GMU.EDU>
Subject: Re: Reduce Attribute Spells
Date: Thu, 8 Dec 1994 12:56:46 -0500
>
> Perhaps I'm missing something here, but aren't most sammies pretty
> uncharismatic anyway? Who cares if you nail one with a -4 Charisma? Then
> he (or she) would just be REALLY ugly.

But, if I'm not mistaken (probably am, but ya'll will catch it
anyways... :), if one of a character's attributes fall below zero, he's
dead. I can't rememebr WHERE I saw this, but it would fit... (I'm
probably confusing this w/ essence... :P )

> --Jason--

--
*****************************************************************
* John Stawarz aka Chaos Manager *
* jstawarz@******.gmu.edu jstawarz@***.edu *
*****************************************************************
* Proudly attending Groucho Marx University since 1992. *
*****************************************************************

Geek Code (1.0.1) GCS/O -d+ p c++(c---) l u+ e+ m+(*) s+/++ n---(!n) h--
f? g+ w++ t+ r+ !y
Message no. 7
From: Stainless Steel Rat <ratinox@***.NEU.EDU>
Subject: Reduce Attribute Spells
Date: Thu, 8 Dec 1994 13:21:46 -0500
>>>>> "John" == John H Stawarz <jstawarz@****.GMU.EDU>
writes:

>> Perhaps I'm missing something here, but aren't most sammies pretty
>> uncharismatic anyway? Who cares if you nail one with a -4 Charisma? Then
>> he (or she) would just be REALLY ugly.

John> But, if I'm not mistaken (probably am, but ya'll will catch it
John> anyways... :), if one of a character's attributes fall below zero,
John> he's dead. I can't rememebr WHERE I saw this, but it would fit...
John> (I'm probably confusing this w/ essence... :P )

Ah, good, someone else remembers this. I thought as much and said so.

--
Rat <ratinox@***.neu.edu> | When not in use, Happy Fun Ball should be
http://www.ccs.neu.edu/home/ratinox | returned to its special container and
PGP Public Key: Ask for one today! | kept under refrigeration.
Message no. 8
From: wadycki andrew m <wadycki@***.CSO.UIUC.EDU>
Subject: Re: Reduce Attribute Spells
Date: Thu, 8 Dec 1994 12:51:11 -0600
On Thu, 8 Dec 1994, John H Stawarz wrote:

>
> But, if I'm not mistaken (probably am, but ya'll will catch it
> anyways... :), if one of a character's attributes fall below zero, he's
> dead. I can't rememebr WHERE I saw this, but it would fit... (I'm
> probably confusing this w/ essence... :P )
>

You are mistaken. Here are the rules from the Black Book. If a physical
attribute is reduced to 0 then the target is unconscious or paralyzed.
If a mental stat is reduced to 0 then the victim is standing about mindless.
Also, as a side note, damage modifiers are applied to the reaction of a
character, and if the reaction drops to 0 or lower, the person can not
take any actions. So, there are a few ways to take out people without
killing them.

-Andrew
Message no. 9
From: Susan Sherman <SSHERMAN@****.STEVENS-TECH.EDU>
Subject: Re: Reduce Attribute Spells
Date: Thu, 8 Dec 1994 14:40:18 -0500
I checked with my GM. If one of a character's attributes falls below
zero, he/she/it falls catatonic. I guess that's because the brain couldn't
handle the shock.

SilverFire
ssherman@****.stevens-tech.edu
Message no. 10
From: Gurth <gurth@***.NL>
Subject: Re: Reduce Attribute Spells
Date: Thu, 8 Dec 1994 20:57:48 +0100
> Also, as a side note, damage modifiers are applied to the reaction of a
> character, and if the reaction drops to 0 or lower, the person can not
> take any actions. So, there are a few ways to take out people without
> killing them.

I chucked out that rule after about a week of SRII-ing and went back to
the SRI rule that the injury modifier applies to the total Initiative,
and not to Reaction. Why? We found that an average firefight (never too
long at the best of times) shortened dramatically if half the NPCs'
Reactions dropped to 0...

Gurth@***.nl | GEEK CODE (v2.1): GS/AT/! -d+ H s:- !g P?(3) !au
Santa Claus, raus | !a>? w+(+++) v*(---) C+(++) U P? !L !3 E? N++ K-
Rot op met je slee | W+ -po+(po) Y+ t(+) 5 !j R+(++)>+++$ tv+(++) b+@
Go back to your house | D+(++) B? e+ u+@ h! f--(?) !r(--)(*) n---->!n y?
In de U.S.A. -The Amazing Stroopwafels
Message no. 11
From: The GREAT Cornholio <mruane@***.UUG.ARIZONA.EDU>
Subject: Re: Reduce Attribute Spells
Date: Thu, 8 Dec 1994 17:29:37 -0700
On Thu, 8 Dec 1994, wadycki andrew m wrote:

> On Thu, 8 Dec 1994, John H Stawarz wrote:
>
> >
> > But, if I'm not mistaken (probably am, but ya'll will catch it
> > anyways... :), if one of a character's attributes fall below zero, he's
> > dead. I can't rememebr WHERE I saw this, but it would fit... (I'm
> > probably confusing this w/ essence... :P )
> >
>
> You are mistaken. Here are the rules from the Black Book. If a physical
> attribute is reduced to 0 then the target is unconscious or paralyzed.
> If a mental stat is reduced to 0 then the victim is standing about mindless.
> Also, as a side note, damage modifiers are applied to the reaction of a
> character, and if the reaction drops to 0 or lower, the person can not
> take any actions. So, there are a few ways to take out people without
> killing them.
>
> -Andrew
>
Right. To help people stuck in the A*&* mindet, think of what would
happen if someone took away your personality. Basically you become an
automaton with little to do because there is no creativity center. You
are capable of doing things, but you just can't come up with anything to do.

Mike, TGC
Message no. 12
From: "Wesley W. Walker" <wwalker@****.UARK.EDU>
Subject: Re: Reduce Attribute Spells
Date: Fri, 9 Dec 1994 10:01:03 -0600
On Thu, 8 Dec 1994, The GREAT Cornholio wrote:
> On Thu, 8 Dec 1994, wadycki andrew m wrote:
> > On Thu, 8 Dec 1994, John H Stawarz wrote:

> Right. To help people stuck in the A*&* mindet, think of what would
> happen if someone took away your personality. Basically you become an
> automaton with little to do because there is no creativity center. You
> are capable of doing things, but you just can't come up with anything to do.

Uh, I'd have to disagree. I have to note, THE LOWERING OF THE
Charisma STAT IS -NOT- ACTUAL. It is a SPELL EFFECT. Charisma being
lowered to or below 0 really would not effect the character's waking
mind.. just how people perceive and react to him. Get a grip. If this
was an actual effect, then why stop at that.. how about Body -4.. or
Strength -4. Jeeze, why not, obliterate spell (1/2 all stats).

Anyway, if a sammie was in a bar full of other sammies, and a
mage cast this spell on him.. the ENTIRE bar would decide that they
-really- don't like him and beat the livin tar out of the poor guy. End
of story.

At least, that's how I'd run it, rules be-damned!

Wes

\||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||/
- Wes W. Walker (wwalker@****.uark.edu) * "But...Ego *IS* everything." -
- CSCI Major and General Slave * -
- Artiste Wanna-be (accepting donations)* -Me -
/||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||\
Message no. 13
From: Adam Getchell <acgetche@****.UCDAVIS.EDU>
Subject: Re: Reduce Attribute Spells
Date: Fri, 9 Dec 1994 13:04:08 -0800
On Thu, 8 Dec 1994, Stainless Steel Rat wrote:

> John> anyways... :), if one of a character's attributes fall below zero,
> John> he's dead. I can't rememebr WHERE I saw this, but it would fit...
> John> (I'm probably confusing this w/ essence... :P )
>
> Ah, good, someone else remembers this. I thought as much and said so.

Actually, if an attribute falls to zero (it can't go below zero)
the individual is unconscious, not dead.
Although that can be remedied quickly enough, if desired.

> Rat <ratinox@***.neu.edu> | When not in use, Happy Fun Ball should be

+-------------+---------------------------------------------------------------+
|Adam Getchell|acgetche@****.engr.ucdavis.edu | ez000270@*******.ucdavis.edu |
| acgetchell |"Invincibility is in oneself, vulnerability is in the opponent"|
+-------------+---------------------------------------------------------------+
Message no. 14
From: The GREAT Cornholio <mruane@***.UUG.ARIZONA.EDU>
Subject: Re: Reduce Attribute Spells
Date: Fri, 9 Dec 1994 14:04:06 -0700
On Fri, 9 Dec 1994, Wesley W. Walker wrote:

> On Thu, 8 Dec 1994, The GREAT Cornholio wrote:
> > On Thu, 8 Dec 1994, wadycki andrew m wrote:
> > > On Thu, 8 Dec 1994, John H Stawarz wrote:
>
> > Right. To help people stuck in the A*&* mindet, think of what would
> > happen if someone took away your personality. Basically you become an
> > automaton with little to do because there is no creativity center. You
> > are capable of doing things, but you just can't come up with anything to do.
>
> Uh, I'd have to disagree. I have to note, THE LOWERING OF THE
> Charisma STAT IS -NOT- ACTUAL. It is a SPELL EFFECT. Charisma being
> lowered to or below 0 really would not effect the character's waking
> mind.. just how people perceive and react to him. Get a grip. If this
> was an actual effect, then why stop at that.. how about Body -4.. or
> Strength -4. Jeeze, why not, obliterate spell (1/2 all stats).
Decrease Attribute -4. Not just Charisma, my friend. All stats are
subject to the spell.

Now, would decrease strength -4 just make you seem less strong that
everyone around you? Hell no! Suddenly that HMG has a lot more recoil
than you last remembered! It is a spell effect and it affects you,
regardless. And if your charisma is -2, it won't suddenly make old
ladies see you and charge you with a can of mace. It's a personal
effect. You suddenly can't relate. I suggest YOU get a grip, buddy-ro.
Different people perceive the world differently and if you can't reason
with them without ridicule then I suggest you learn and spend some karma
to get your charisma up.

>
> Anyway, if a sammie was in a bar full of other sammies, and a
> mage cast this spell on him.. the ENTIRE bar would decide that they
> -really- don't like him and beat the livin tar out of the poor guy. End
> of story.
>
> At least, that's how I'd run it, rules be-damned!
>
> Wes

Mike, TGC
Message no. 15
From: Jason Ustica <usticaj@****.PR.ERAU.EDU>
Subject: Re: Reduce Attribute Spells
Date: Fri, 9 Dec 1994 15:22:01 -0700
On Thu, 8 Dec 1994, John H Stawarz wrote:

> But, if I'm not mistaken (probably am, but ya'll will catch it
> anyways... :), if one of a character's attributes fall below zero, he's
> dead. I can't rememebr WHERE I saw this, but it would fit... (I'm
> probably confusing this w/ essence... :P )

Well if so, then why would a really bad charisma KILL you? That seem's
really stupid. I can see Body, or Strength, and especially Essence, but
if any of the other stats fell to zero, I doubt it would outright KILL
you. Well now that I think about it, maybe Willpower too.

Anyway my point is that a zero or less Charisma should not KILL anyone.

--Jason--
Message no. 16
From: "Wesley W. Walker" <wwalker@****.UARK.EDU>
Subject: Re: Reduce Attribute Spells
Date: Fri, 9 Dec 1994 18:39:48 -0600
On Fri, 9 Dec 1994, The GREAT Cornholio wrote:
> On Fri, 9 Dec 1994, Wesley W. Walker wrote:

> Now, would decrease strength -4 just make you seem less strong that
> everyone around you? Hell no! Suddenly that HMG has a lot more recoil
> than you last remembered! It is a spell effect and it affects you,
> regardless. And if your charisma is -2, it won't suddenly make old
> ladies see you and charge you with a can of mace. It's a personal
> effect. You suddenly can't relate. I suggest YOU get a grip, buddy-ro.
> Different people perceive the world differently and if you can't reason
> with them without ridicule then I suggest you learn and spend some karma
> to get your charisma up.

Pardon me.. But is this spell effect permanent? I certainly hope not...
Anyway.. Suddenly can't relate? That's pushing it isn't it? That sounds
more to me like intelligence or perception... not so much charisma.. I
mean, the chars fine unless he says something.. Right? So the old ladies
won't pull out the cans of mace until he says...
"Could you please tell me where to find the grocery shop.." and his
dweomer of charisma -4 causes them to smack him one.

Wes

PS - About the attitude. Sorry.. I was still miffed about the M****k debate.

\||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||/
- Wes W. Walker (wwalker@****.uark.edu) * "Truth is well disguised lie and -
- CSCI Major and General Slave * never immediately apparent." -
- Artiste Wanna-be (accepting donations)* -Me -
/||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||\
Message no. 17
From: Gurth <gurth@***.NL>
Subject: Re: Reduce Attribute Spells
Date: Sat, 10 Dec 1994 13:10:35 +0100
>> Charisma being
>> lowered to or below 0 really would not effect the character's waking
>> mind.. just how people perceive and react to him. Get a grip. If this
>> was an actual effect, then why stop at that.. how about Body -4.. or
>> Strength -4. Jeeze, why not, obliterate spell (1/2 all stats).
>Decrease Attribute -4. Not just Charisma, my friend. All stats are
>subject to the spell.
>
>And if your charisma is -2, it won't suddenly make old
>ladies see you and charge you with a can of mace. It's a personal
>effect. You suddenly can't relate. I suggest YOU get a grip, buddy-ro.
>Different people perceive the world differently and if you can't reason
>with them without ridicule then I suggest you learn and spend some karma
>to get your charisma up.

Charisma _is_not_ purely physical attractiveness (though that does have
someting to do with it). IMO it's more what people perceive you to be when
they first meet you: if you were to meet someone with Charisma 1, you'd go:
"Jesus, what a dork!" even though you've never actually talked to him; but
someone with Charisma 6 would have you go "I think I _like_ him!" no matter
whether he's good-looking, just average, or plain ugly. You can meet someone
with the looks of [fill in your favorite model, actrice, actor, whatever]
but he/she can turn out to be a total asshole you can't get along with at
all; on the other hand you can meet someone whose looks you don't like at
all but after talking to him/her, you think "this could be my new best friend."



Gurth@***.nl
Backup not found: |GEEK CODE v2.1: GS/AT/! -d+ H s:- !g P?(3) !au !a>?
(A)bort |w+(+++)y v*(---) C+(++) U P? !L !3 E? N++ K- W+ -po+(po)
(R)etry |Y+ t(+) 5 !j R+(++)>+++$ tv+(++) b+@ D+(++) B? e+ u+@ h!
(P)anic |f--(?) !r(--)(*) n---->!n y?
Message no. 18
From: Gurth <gurth@***.NL>
Subject: Re: Reduce Attribute Spells
Date: Sat, 10 Dec 1994 13:10:48 +0100
>Pardon me.. But is this spell effect permanent? I certainly hope not...

Normally it's sustained, but someone could quicken it on your favorite
samurai... (evil GM grin :)
Gurth@***.nl
Backup not found: |GEEK CODE v2.1: GS/AT/! -d+ H s:- !g P?(3) !au !a>?
(A)bort |w+(+++)y v*(---) C+(++) U P? !L !3 E? N++ K- W+ -po+(po)
(R)etry |Y+ t(+) 5 !j R+(++)>+++$ tv+(++) b+@ D+(++) B? e+ u+@ h!
(P)anic |f--(?) !r(--)(*) n---->!n y?
Message no. 19
From: The GREAT Cornholio <mruane@***.UUG.ARIZONA.EDU>
Subject: Re: Reduce Attribute Spells
Date: Sun, 11 Dec 1994 16:19:46 -0700
On Fri, 9 Dec 1994, Wesley W. Walker wrote:

> PS - About the attitude. Sorry.. I was still miffed about the M****k debate.

Yeah. I sorta snapped at you too. You caught me at the wrong time. I
had just spent 48 hours in constant curve fitting and number crunching
with a whole 2 hours of sleep. I may have been a bit cranky. :-)

Mike, TGC
Message no. 20
From: John Fikouras <feanor@**********.UNI-BREMEN.DE>
Subject: Re: Reduce Attribute Spells
Date: Mon, 12 Dec 1994 11:20:33 +0100
> Charisma _is_not_ purely physical attractiveness (though that does have
> someting to do with it). IMO it's more what people perceive you to be when
> they first meet you: if you were to meet someone with Charisma 1, you'd go:
> "Jesus, what a dork!" even though you've never actually talked to him; but
> someone with Charisma 6 would have you go "I think I _like_ him!" no matter
> whether he's good-looking, just average, or plain ugly. You can meet someone
> with the looks of [fill in your favorite model, actrice, actor, whatever]
> but he/she can turn out to be a total asshole you can't get along with at
> all; on the other hand you can meet someone whose looks you don't like at
> all but after talking to him/her, you think "this could be my new best
friend."

Exactly to get a clearer picture of what mental attributes really mean in SR
take a look at what they stand for in astral space. Willpower is Body, so
Willpower is actually mental toughness and integrity - how much a guy can
stand before actually giving up.
Intelligence is quickness, this makes intelligence some sort of
processing speed. And charisma is strength - i'd say this makes real life
charisma something like magnetic personality, the ability to make strong,
lasting positive impressions.

--
"Believe in Angels." -- The Crow

GCS d>- H s+: !g p? !au a- w+ v-(?) C+++ UA++S++L+>++++ P-- (aren't we all?)
L+>+++ 3 E--- N+ K W(+)(---) M-- !V(--) -po+(---) Y+ t++ 5+ !j(-) R+++(--)
!G tv(++) b++ D+ B- e+ u++(-) h*(+) f+ r- n!(----) y?

Further Reading

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