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From:	Adam Getchell acgetchell@*******.edu
Subject:	Regeneration and Talisman fetish
Date:	Wed, 26 May 1999 16:52:16 -0700

Message no. 1 Hello,

These two issues have come up in our game. What I'm looking for is either
clarification by someone at FASA, or someone who can quote rules and
rationale to the contrary.

Regeneration: On p. 36 of the SR3 Companion, it states that shapeshifter
magicians regenerate Physical Drain at the rate of 1 box per minute. In
general, shapeshifter regeneration rules are mentioned only in the context
of physical damage.

What is the rate of regeneration for standard (Mental) Drain? What is the
rate of regeneration for Mental Damage? If you say it is normal (ie the
non-regenerated rate), explain why a shapeshifter can be bruised up and
knocked out by a baseball bat but can easily ignore damage by a knife.
Repeat explanation for Physical Drain vs. Mental Drain.

I'm basing discussion of this upon the premise that Shadowrun appears to
follow, which is that magic is as realistic as possible (see Developers'
Say in MiTS).

I've assumed that Mental Drain also regenerates at the same rate as
Physical Drain, and that Stun damage regenerates at the rate Physical
damage does. However, with regards to Active Magical skills, this gives
shapeshifters some similiarities with Free Spirits (ie, they don't worry
about Drain).

Talisman Fetish: Here's a good rules rape one of my players came up with.
I'd like to see someone poke holes in it *using the rules*, if they can. An
adept buys the Improved Attribute power and applies a Talisman geas to
those powers. Later, when he has Karma and wants to raise Attributes, he
takes off the Talisman (thus breaking the geas). His Attributes thereby
drop *without affecting his other powers* and he pays reduced karma costs
to raise them. After training, he wears the Talisman again.

A potential gotcha is in the Skills - linked Attribute area. But note that
if you raise Skills, the base cost depends upon your base Attribute. If you
raise the Attribute later, you don't get back the karma that comes from the
reduced cost of raising the skill. Assuming parity, if you don't gain the
karma back from increasing your linked Attribute, it would make sense that
an Attribute reduced below a skill (see above) would not affect that skill.

Still with me? Any holes?
--Adam

acgetchell@*******.edu
"Invincibility is in oneself, vulnerability in the opponent." --Sun Tzu

From:	Ereskanti@*.com Ereskanti@*.com
Subject:	Regeneration and Talisman fetish
Date:	Wed, 26 May 1999 20:35:06 EDT

Message no. 2 In a message dated 5/26/1999 6:52:29 PM US Eastern Standard Time,
acgetchell@*******.edu writes:

>
> Regeneration: On p. 36 of the SR3 Companion, it states that shapeshifter
> magicians regenerate Physical Drain at the rate of 1 box per minute. In
> general, shapeshifter regeneration rules are mentioned only in the context
> of physical damage.
>
> What is the rate of regeneration for standard (Mental) Drain? What is the
> rate of regeneration for Mental Damage? If you say it is normal (ie the
> non-regenerated rate), explain why a shapeshifter can be bruised up and
> knocked out by a baseball bat but can easily ignore damage by a knife.
> Repeat explanation for Physical Drain vs. Mental Drain.
>
> I'm basing discussion of this upon the premise that Shadowrun appears to
> follow, which is that magic is as realistic as possible (see Developers'
> Say in MiTS).
>
> I've assumed that Mental Drain also regenerates at the same rate as
> Physical Drain, and that Stun damage regenerates at the rate Physical
> damage does. However, with regards to Active Magical skills, this gives
> shapeshifters some similiarities with Free Spirits (ie, they don't worry
> about Drain).

Adam, I'm only going to attempt to answer this question for you, as it is
actually the easiest one to answer.

Regeneration is a power that correct/heals the Physical Damage, and does
nothing for the Mental Damage. As such, a shapeshifter recovers from "Mental
Drain" at the same rate as any other magician of like attributes would.

-K

From:	Tarek Okail Tarek_Okail@**********.com
Subject:	Regeneration and Talisman fetish
Date:	Wed, 26 May 1999 21:12:41 -0400

Message no. 3 Adam--

>What is the rate of regeneration for standard (Mental) Drain?

None. Regeneration does not affect Mental Drain. If it did, they'd
have said something about it.

>Talisman Geas:

Under the Improved Physical Attribute ability it states that
all further improvements are based off of the Improved attribute
score. Period. I see no reason why a Talisman geas would affect this
in any way. Without the Talisman, he cannot use the attribute at its
improved level, true, but that doesn't matter. Remember, the geas
has already had a benefit; it has allowed him to gain an exeptional
power at a reduced cost. It should not give him the further benefit
of allowing him to purchase attributes at a lower cost.
Suppose that he has 1 point of increased strength. Suppose
that he wants to go from 5 to 6. He removes the Talisman and trains
his strength up from 4 to 5. Then he puts on the Talisman. He has
just duplicated with karma what his Increased Attribute power gave
him, so his strength *should* remain at 5. In order to get up to
strength 6, he's going to have to put in some more work.
Remember, training also takes time. Karma may be spent at a
single instant, but that's just the way it happens from the player's
perspective. Imagine trying to go for two weeks without a checkbook,
credit card, or ATM card. That's the kind of thing he's asking his
character to do. Can his character really go two weeks without picking
up his talisman at least once? Knowing how much better he is using it
than without using it?
Now imagine trying to learn a skill such as Unarmed Combat.
Does he really have the willpower to stand for learning this skill
without using his Talisman, when he could learn faster and more
effectively with it? And what happens when he does learn the skill,
and goes back to using his boosted attributes? His timing is off, he
throws his punches too hard or too soft, etc.

Shadowmage

From:	Barbie LeVile barbie@********.de
Subject:	Regeneration and Talisman fetish
Date:	Thu, 27 May 1999 13:17:51 +0200

Message no. 4 Adam Getchell wrote:
>
>
> I've assumed that Mental Drain also regenerates at the same rate as
> Physical Drain, and that Stun damage regenerates at the rate Physical
> damage does. However, with regards to Active Magical skills, this gives
> shapeshifters some similiarities with Free Spirits (ie, they don't worry
> about Drain).
>

Ok, it goes basicaly as follos.
The reneration power comes from the interactive of the shifters astral
template and its physical body.
Regen power tries to rebuild the pfysical body to match its astral template,
by drawing the needed energie(mana) from the astral, so if the shifter gets
damaged, the it gets rebuild according to its astral template, but mental
damage does not change the physical body, there fore mental damage does not
regenerate at a higher rate.

Regeneration rules in my game:

Regeneration
Regeneration is handled as follows, this regeneration rules are in use
for
both NPC and PC shifters and all other critters with Regeneration as power.
If
this power works different in a particular case it will be noted in the
corresponding rules. Any physical wound not caused by drain from magical
activities, IE. spells and conjuring, will heal over the duration of one
combat
turn. Note that this is different from standard FASA regeneration rules in
which
the wound will be healed at the end of the present turn. Under this rules
the
wound will be healed at the end of the next turn. Physical drain from
magical
activities will heal at the rate of one box per minute. This reflects the
fact
that the regeneration power is based on the mana flow and that the mana flow
will be disrupted by the high drain for some time. Wounds from
vulnerability
targeting weapons will heal at the same rate as wounds from drain, for the
same
reason, disruption of the mana flow. If the overflow damage is greater then
the
maximal possible overflow, death will occur, regeneration has its limits
too.
To see if a wound will heal roll 1d6, at a result of 1 the wound will not
heal,
or with massive wounds from fire, explosions and so a roll of 1-2 indicates
a
not healing wound.

Note1: Stun damage is not effected by the regeneration power.
Note2: Karma pool use for this roll is possible, but karma pool points so
used
are permanently gone, burned.
Note3: A magical active being with regeneration must check each time a
deadly
wound is received for magic lost, regeneration will not help to prevent
this.

++++++++++++++++++++++++++++
BIG NOTE: Its all SR2 based.

--
Barbie

SR4 - A power on the raise ...
Another assimilated each week ...

From:	cmpetro@*******.com cmpetro@*******.com
Subject:	Regeneration and Talisman fetish
Date:	Thu, 27 May 1999 06:57:11 -0500

Message no. 5 Adam Writes:
>Talisman Fetish: Here's a good rules rape one of my players came up with.
>I'd like to see someone poke holes in it *using the rules*, if they can.
An
>adept buys the Improved Attribute power and applies a Talisman geas to
>those powers. Later, when he has Karma and wants to raise Attributes, he
>takes off the Talisman (thus breaking the geas). His Attributes thereby
>drop *without affecting his other powers* and he pays reduced karma costs
>to raise them. After training, he wears the Talisman again.

Just because he breaks the geas does not remove the improvement to the
attribute, he just doesn't have access to the improvement while the geas is
broken.

From:	Marc Renouf renouf@********.com
Subject:	Regeneration and Talisman fetish
Date:	Thu, 27 May 1999 11:22:15 -0400 (EDT)

Message no. 6 Let me preface my reply by stating that all of the rulings are
simply my own interpretation. I'll back them with rules as necessary, but
your questions are goods one in that they fall squarely in the "grey area"
that is basically up to GM discretion.

On Wed, 26 May 1999, Adam Getchell wrote:

> Regeneration:

I handle regeneration of drain differently from regeneration of
wounds. Physical and Mental wounds heal at the ridiculously fast rate
listed under the description of the Regeneration power. The reason I
included stun wounds is because they weren't specifically mentioned, and I
found it sort of strange that you could club a vampire into
unconsciousness, but you couldn't shoot him. Weird, and not satisfactory,
so regen applies equally to mental and physical wounds.
Drain is a different story, however. Just because your body heals
quickly doesn't mean that your body is a boundless source of magical
energy. As such, *all* drain, be it physical or mental heals at the
slower rate as described in SR3 Companion. I toyed with making Drain not
regenerate at all (including physical), and I may still adopt that system
after messing with it for a while. Fortunately, I don't have any
shapeshifter or vampire PC's, so I don't have to worry about it.

> Talisman Fetish:

Correct me if I'm wrong, but isn't the Karma cost for raising an
attribute determined by the base (i.e. natural) level of that attribute?
For instance, if you have a Strength of 2 and muscle replacement 4, the
karma cost you pay to raise that attribute is the cost to go from 2 to 3,
not 6 to 7.
For a physical adept with the "Improved Attribute" power, I would
assume that it works the same way. So removing the Talisman doesn't do
you any good, because your Karma cost to raise the attribute is based on
the natural value anyway.
I could be wrong about this, but it seems to make the most sense
in game terms.

> A potential gotcha is in the Skills - linked Attribute area. But note that
> if you raise Skills, the base cost depends upon your base Attribute. If you
> raise the Attribute later, you don't get back the karma that comes from the
> reduced cost of raising the skill. Assuming parity, if you don't gain the
> karma back from increasing your linked Attribute, it would make sense that
> an Attribute reduced below a skill (see above) would not affect that skill.

You're absolutely right. Raising your attribute later doesn't
give you a "rebate" in karma, nor does having an attribute drop force you
to make a "margin call" in karma. Once bought and paid for, the two are
considered separately. It's a question of how difficult or demanding the
skill was to *learn*, not to maintain.

Marc

From:	Sommers sommers@*****.umich.edu
Subject:	Regeneration and Talisman fetish
Date:	Thu, 27 May 1999 12:02:42 -0400

Message no. 7 At 11:22 AM 5/27/99 , Marc Renouf wrote:
>
>
> Let me preface my reply by stating that all of the rulings are
>simply my own interpretation. I'll back them with rules as necessary, but
>your questions are goods one in that they fall squarely in the "grey area"
>that is basically up to GM discretion.
>
>On Wed, 26 May 1999, Adam Getchell wrote:
>
>> Regeneration:
>
> I handle regeneration of drain differently from regeneration of
>wounds. Physical and Mental wounds heal at the ridiculously fast rate
>listed under the description of the Regeneration power. The reason I
>included stun wounds is because they weren't specifically mentioned, and I
>found it sort of strange that you could club a vampire into
>unconsciousness, but you couldn't shoot him. Weird, and not satisfactory,
>so regen applies equally to mental and physical wounds.

See the reply of... a few posts ago about regeneration and the aura
template. Basically, regeneration occurs because there is a much stronger
connection between a regenerating critters aura template and ihs physical
body. If a piece of it suddenly is damaged, the aura tries to change the
body to replace those missing parts. Mana is pulled in and the damage is
healed.

Stun damage is different in that not too much of the body parts are killed.
There is bruising of the items, and chemical imbalances are set up (is it
lactic acid in the muscles that causes fatigue?), but no actual damage.
From the aura's point of view everything is about the same, so there is no
need to pump mana in and change the body.

> Drain is a different story, however. Just because your body heals
>quickly doesn't mean that your body is a boundless source of magical
>energy. As such, *all* drain, be it physical or mental heals at the
>slower rate as described in SR3 Companion. I toyed with making Drain not
>regenerate at all (including physical), and I may still adopt that system
>after messing with it for a while. Fortunately, I don't have any
>shapeshifter or vampire PC's, so I don't have to worry about it.

And here what the rules are trying to show is that all of that mana pumping
through the system of the mage that causes drain makes it harder for the
aura to call extra mana in to repair damage. So it heals more slowly than
normal damage.

>> Talisman Fetish:
>
> Correct me if I'm wrong, but isn't the Karma cost for raising an
>attribute determined by the base (i.e. natural) level of that attribute?
>For instance, if you have a Strength of 2 and muscle replacement 4, the
>karma cost you pay to raise that attribute is the cost to go from 2 to 3,
>not 6 to 7.

That is true for cyberware boosters like muscle replacement, and I'll
assume that bioware will work the same way.

> For a physical adept with the "Improved Attribute" power, I would
>assume that it works the same way. So removing the Talisman doesn't do
>you any good, because your Karma cost to raise the attribute is based on
>the natural value anyway.

The Improved Attribute power specifically states in the power description
that the new value, with the boost, is the base rating of the attribute.
IIRC it even mentions in there the increased karma cost of raising the
attribute. I would rule that it always goes off of the new, higher rating
for terms of raising the attribute through karma. Taking the Talisman off
just means that he temporarily is weakened by its loss.

If you use the optional rules for training, I would make the time required
be based off of the higher value, but the amount of dice used to make the
test be the amount that he currently has. If he takes the Talisman off,
he's weaker and it takes him longer to improve the attribute. <EGMG>

Sommers
Insert witty quote here.

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