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Message no. 1
From: Peter Rogers <DarkAngelI@******.COM>
Subject: Regeneration (Was: Re: scary thought)
Date: Tue, 17 Oct 1995 08:21:21 -0700
One quick note pertaining to vampires and regeneration. One of the posts
mentioned a vampire with cyberware. This effectively cannot exist, because
regeneration means the entire body regenerates. I happen to have created a
shapeshifter character a while back and his major disadvantage is NO
cyberware OR bioware. Surgery would be impossible as a result of this
awakened power. Therefore, all skills and attributes must be increased by
karma alone, no exceptions.
The
Dark Angel
Message no. 2
From: Peter Rogers <DarkAngelI@******.COM>
Subject: Regeneration (Was: Re: scary thought)
Date: Tue, 17 Oct 1995 08:31:10 -0700
Just one more quickie. I just read a post on wired reflexes and vampires. Ok.
If I shoot a vampire and the bullet penetrates, he will immediately heal.
That means, its as if nothing ever happened to him. ALL nerves, tissue,
bones, etc. are healed completely. I had considered once the possibility of
unlimited cyberware for vampires, but their regeneration negates even the
slightest possibility.
The Dark
Angel
Message no. 3
From: Cuckoo Clock <cukoo@*****.NET>
Subject: Re: Regeneration (Was: Re: scary thought)
Date: Tue, 17 Oct 1995 12:40:53 -0700
>Just one more quickie. I just read a post on wired reflexes and vampires. Ok.
>If I shoot a vampire and the bullet penetrates, he will immediately heal.
>That means, its as if nothing ever happened to him. ALL nerves, tissue,
>bones, etc. are healed completely. I had considered once the possibility of
>unlimited cyberware for vampires, but their regeneration negates even the
>slightest possibility.

Just how fast do they heal? It seems to me that everyone heals, but the new
tissue grows around anything that is present, including cyberware I would
think.
Message no. 4
From: Sebastian Wiers <seb@***.RIPCO.COM>
Subject: Re: Regeneration (Was: Re: scary thought)
Date: Tue, 17 Oct 1995 14:51:27 -0500
>
> >Just one more quickie. I just read a post on wired reflexes and vampires. Ok.
> >If I shoot a vampire and the bullet penetrates, he will immediately heal.
> >That means, its as if nothing ever happened to him. ALL nerves, tissue,
> >bones, etc. are healed completely. I had considered once the possibility of
> >unlimited cyberware for vampires, but their regeneration negates even the
> >slightest possibility.
>
Plussing the fact that much cyber is nano-constructed, in place. AS long as
the body didn't fight off the nannites (a big if, considering pathogenic
resistance) it would work ok. Same goes for drug-electro treatments like
Boosted reflexes (the only one, I think).
seb
Message no. 5
From: Peter Rogers <DarkAngelI@******.COM>
Subject: Re: Regeneration (Was: Re: scary thought)
Date: Tue, 17 Oct 1995 13:04:59 -0700
A combat turn has been calculated to three seconds. That means even a deadly
wound would be healed in under three seconds, completely. Sorry, but thats
pretty much healing as the knife cuts.
Message no. 6
From: Robert Watkins <bob@**.NTU.EDU.AU>
Subject: Re: Regeneration (Was: Re: scary thought)
Date: Wed, 18 Oct 1995 07:27:24 +0930
Cuckoo Clock wrote:
>
> >Just one more quickie. I just read a post on wired reflexes and vampires. Ok.
> >If I shoot a vampire and the bullet penetrates, he will immediately heal.
> >That means, its as if nothing ever happened to him. ALL nerves, tissue,
> >bones, etc. are healed completely. I had considered once the possibility of
> >unlimited cyberware for vampires, but their regeneration negates even the
> >slightest possibility.
>
> Just how fast do they heal? It seems to me that everyone heals, but the new
> tissue grows around anything that is present, including cyberware I would
> think.

They completely heal at the end of the combat turn... less than three
seconds to recover from a Deadly wound. :)

More to the point, even if you COULD get it into them, their body would
reject it.

--
Robert Watkins bob@**.ntu.edu.au
Real Programmers never work 9 to 5. If any real programmers
are around at 9 am, it's because they were up all night.
*** Finger me for my geek code ***
Message no. 7
From: Cuckoo Clock <cukoo@*****.NET>
Subject: Re: Regeneration (Was: Re: scary thought)
Date: Tue, 17 Oct 1995 15:25:38 -0700
>More to the point, even if you COULD get it into them, their body would
>reject it.

Rejection is an issue with anyone, not just vampires, but even organ
transplats have to deal with that, so I would think they have ways around
dealing with rejection. Not that I'm a doctor or anything.
Message no. 8
From: Robert Watkins <bob@**.NTU.EDU.AU>
Subject: Re: Regeneration (Was: Re: scary thought)
Date: Wed, 18 Oct 1995 10:44:16 +0930
Cuckoo Clock wrote:
>
> >More to the point, even if you COULD get it into them, their body would
> >reject it.
>
> Rejection is an issue with anyone, not just vampires, but even organ
> transplats have to deal with that, so I would think they have ways around
> dealing with rejection. Not that I'm a doctor or anything.

That's not what I meant... the highly magical nature of Vampiric
regeneration would reject the cyber. Not to mention when they take on Mist
Form, the cyber would drop out.

Besides, cyber wouldn't help a Vampire, it'd hurt it.. a lower maximum
essence would mean they have to feed more often, which draws more attention
to them.

--
Robert Watkins bob@**.ntu.edu.au
Real Programmers never work 9 to 5. If any real programmers
are around at 9 am, it's because they were up all night.
*** Finger me for my geek code ***
Message no. 9
From: Peter Rogers <DarkAngelI@******.COM>
Subject: Re: Regeneration (Was: Re: scary thought)
Date: Tue, 17 Oct 1995 19:17:49 -0700
----------------------------- Begin Original Text
-----------------------------

They completely heal at the end of the combat turn... less than three
seconds to recover from a Deadly wound. :)

More to the point, even if you COULD get it into them, their body would
reject it.
----------------------------- End Original Text -----------------------------

EXACTLY!!!
Message no. 10
From: Peter Rogers <DarkAngelI@******.COM>
Subject: Re: Regeneration (Was: Re: scary thought)
Date: Tue, 17 Oct 1995 19:26:58 -0700
----------------------------- Begin Original Text
-----------------------------

Rejection is an issue with anyone, not just vampires, but even organ
transplats have to deal with that, so I would think they have ways around
dealing with rejection. Not that I'm a doctor or anything.

----------------------------- End Original Text -----------------------------

Correct. Real people do have a certain degree of rejection to even the BEST
matched transplant organs, but a shapeshifter, or any creature with
regenerative powers, regrows whatever it loses, automatically. If you cut out
their appendix, it'll grow back before you can say "Holy DREK!" The synaptic
nerves would invariably "re-link" to the severed nerves that whatever bio- or
cyberware needs to connect to in order to function. The only way to stop this
process is to either kill the creature, or spend billions upon billions in
research for something that less than 1% of the population would even
consider. Where's the profitability in that. Besides, anything with
regenerative powers is already damn hard to stop anyway. Why would the corps
mess with near perfection.
The Dark
Angel
Message no. 11
From: Peter Rogers <DarkAngelI@******.COM>
Subject: Re: Regeneration (Was: Re: scary thought)
Date: Tue, 17 Oct 1995 19:28:37 -0700
----------------------------- Begin Original Text
-----------------------------

That's not what I meant... the highly magical nature of Vampiric
regeneration would reject the cyber. Not to mention when they take on Mist
Form, the cyber would drop out.

Besides, cyber wouldn't help a Vampire, it'd hurt it.. a lower maximum
essence would mean they have to feed more often, which draws more attention
to them.
----------------------------- End Original Text -----------------------------

Now you see.
Message no. 12
From: "St. Jean, Ricky" <stjeanr@*******.CANADOREC.ON.CA>
Subject: Re: Regeneration (Was: Re: scary thought)
Date: Wed, 18 Oct 1995 10:21:00 PDT
More to the point, even if you COULD get it into them, their body would
reject it.

But the point of spending essence is that your body has accepted it.
One thing I would make certain however is that all bioware must be cultured.
Then wouldn't the vampires metabolism view this as natural?


Ricky
"It's not a question of being paranoid, the question
is are you paranoid enough"
-strange days
<<<<<stjeanr@*******.CANADORE.ON.CA>>>>>
Message no. 13
From: "St. Jean, Ricky" <stjeanr@*******.CANADOREC.ON.CA>
Subject: Re: Regeneration (Was: Re: scary thought)
Date: Wed, 18 Oct 1995 10:32:00 PDT
>Correct. Real people do have a certain degree of rejection to even the BEST
>matched transplant organs, but a shapeshifter, or any creature with
>regenerative powers, regrows whatever it loses, automatically. If you cut
out
>their appendix, it'll grow back before you can say "Holy DREK!" The
synaptic
>nerves would invariably "re-link" to the severed nerves that whatever bio-
or
>cyberware needs to connect to in order to function. The only way to stop
this
>process is to either kill the creature, or spend billions upon billions in
>research for something that less than 1% of the population would even
>consider. Where's the profitability in that. Besides, anything with
>regenerative powers is already damn hard to stop anyway. Why would the
corps
>mess with near perfection.

so have a mage spend a month researching a spell which suppresses
regenration.

supress

type: mana Target: will(R) range:los duration:sustained drain
f/2+2S
Vampire hunters emerge.



Ricky
"It's not a question of being paranoid, the question
is are you paranoid enough"
-strange days
<<<<<stjeanr@*******.CANADORE.ON.CA>>>>>
Message no. 14
From: "St. Jean, Ricky" <stjeanr@*******.CANADOREC.ON.CA>
Subject: Re: Regeneration (Was: Re: scary thought)
Date: Wed, 18 Oct 1995 10:32:00 PDT
>
> >More to the point, even if you COULD get it into them, their body would
> >reject it.
>
> Rejection is an issue with anyone, not just vampires, but even organ
> transplats have to deal with that, so I would think they have ways around
> dealing with rejection. Not that I'm a doctor or anything.

>That's not what I meant... the highly magical nature of Vampiric
>regeneration would reject the cyber. Not to mention when they take on Mist
>Form, the cyber would drop out.

a vampires clothing doesn't fall off when then take on mist form so why
would the cyberware??


>Besides, cyber wouldn't help a Vampire, it'd hurt it.. a lower maximum
>essence would mean they have to feed more often, which draws more attention
>to them.

Why would they have to feed more often? They still loose 1 essence per
month.

!!!!!!!!!((((((((((Idea))))))))))!!!!!!!!!!!!

This may be an idea. What if the vampire were forced to feed more often?
The cyberware burns off a vampires stored essence at a faster rate. Loose
essence + 1/2 bioware points of essence each month. A majorly cybered
vampire would have to feed everyday. This will certainly bring about a
vampires downfall.
Comments?


Ricky
"It's not a question of being paranoid, the question
is are you paranoid enough"
-strange days
<<<<<stjeanr@*******.CANADORE.ON.CA>>>>>
Message no. 15
From: John Bennett <GRBENNET@*****.CIS.ECU.EDU>
Subject: Re: Regeneration (Was: Re: scary thought)
Date: Wed, 18 Oct 1995 11:12:37 EDT
On Wed, 18 Oct 1995 10:32:00 PDT St. Jean, Ricky said:
>
>Why would they have to feed more often? They still loose 1 essence per
>month.
>
>!!!!!!!!!((((((((((Idea))))))))))!!!!!!!!!!!!
>
>This may be an idea. What if the vampire were forced to feed more often?
> The cyberware burns off a vampires stored essence at a faster rate. Loose
>essence + 1/2 bioware points of essence each month. A majorly cybered
>vampire would have to feed everyday. This will certainly bring about a
>vampires downfall.
>Comments?
>
Here's my idea, and I dont have any of the rules handy, so Im doing this
from memory and what I've read in this thread.

Vampires can only drain up to a maximum of twice their essence. If they have
cyberware, their essence is lower and the maximum if reduced by a factor of
two, i.e. non cybered: ess 6, max drain 12, 12 months to next drain
ess 3, max drain 6, 6 months to next drain
This increases the necessity of drain, and I would say is a deterent to
getting cyberware. As to adding cyberware after being infected, I'll have
to consider that one a bit more.

Sgt Pepper

"I MAY BE SANE BUT I'M CRAZIER THAN YOU" O O
NOSALGIA ISN'T WHAT IT USED TO BE. ^
SOMEONE WHO THINKS LOGICALLY IS A NICE _____/
CONTRAST TO THE REAL WORLD.
THERE IS ALWAYS ONE MORE IMBECILE THAN YOU COUNTED ON.
IF YOU CAN SMILE WHEN THINGS GO WRONG, YOU HAVE SOMEONE IN
MIND TO BLAME.
COMMON SENSE REALLY AIN'T ALL THAT COMMON.

GeekCodev3.0

GM/ED d- s+: g+ a26 c++ u- P? L E? W !N K- w+ M-- V+ PS+ PE Y+ PGP-
t+ 5 X+ R+ tv+ b+(++) DI d G e++(+++) h+ r++(+++) y+
Message no. 16
From: Marc A Renouf <jormung@*****.UMICH.EDU>
Subject: Re: Regeneration (Was: Re: scary thought)
Date: Wed, 18 Oct 1995 13:05:17 -0400
On Wed, 18 Oct 1995, Robert Watkins wrote:

> That's not what I meant... the highly magical nature of Vampiric
> regeneration would reject the cyber. Not to mention when they take on Mist
> Form, the cyber would drop out.

Not necessarily. If you view the implantation recovery time from
cyberware as a "wound" then perhaps the vampire's body would want to heal
it. But if you view that recovery tim as not so much from wounds as from
time to get used to using your new ware, running the necessary
diagnostics, and tweaking the system such that it doesn't give weird
feedback, then there is absolutely no reason the body would reject it.
You can't "heal out" what's implanted in your body (unless there's a hole
for stuff to slide out as you heal, but in many cases of
cyber-implantation this isn't so).
Also, on the subject of cyberware dropping out when in mist form
remember that a mage's cyberware changes with him when he casts a
shapeshift spell. He's paid Essence for it, so it's now part of his body
and thus affected by the spell. Why should a vampire be any different?

Marc
Message no. 17
From: Peter Rogers <DarkAngelI@******.COM>
Subject: Re: Regeneration (Was: Re: scary thought)
Date: Wed, 18 Oct 1995 10:27:24 -0700
#1
Take a look at the Mist Lynx from Paranormal Animals of North
America. The creature can take on mist form by "controlling the molecular
cohesion of its cells." This means that it controls its ORGANIC nature.
Cyberware is metal, pure and simple. Its method of working is related to
synaptic relays which interconnect to the central nervous system, thereby
allowing "control" of the cyberware only on a superficial level. The brain
says do this and an electron pulse is sent to the central nervous system. In
turn the CNS sends the signal along to wherever the cyberware is. The signal
is the transfered into the connectors of the cyberware and is now "out of the
control" of the persons mind. The cyberware's computer translates the signal
and executes a preprogrammed function. You can't actually "feel" the
cyberware itself, though you can feel its presence.
Furthermore, the being having this cyberware most likely has very
little knowledge of its design. When the person takes on mist form, the mind
knows and understands how the body should "reappear", therefore allowing Mist
Form. But cyberware is foreign to the body. It has no knowledge of it other
than its presence.

#2
Alright. Lets say that you create a spell to suppress their
regeneration. You have now completely taken away their healing process,
therfore you have one dead shapeshifter/vampire. Not to mention the fact that
their regeneration is associated with their metabolism, thereby stopping
there regeneration you stop there metabolism, a definite "Ow!" Their
regeneration ability IS their healing process. Its not like a humans. Even if
you slowed down their metabolism it would still heal the same way, just not
as fast. This slowed down or stopped metabolism would also affect their
ability to shift, probably forcing them into permanent animal form (which is
their natural state) until their metabolism sped back up again.

#3
In regards to cyberware and mages, yes they do get to keep it even
when they shapeshift, but thats a purely magical thing. In this process,
everything is under a manipulation spell. SHapeshifters aren't under a
continuous manipulation spell. As it was stated before, "molecular cohesion
of cells" and metabolism are the key words to a shapeshifters ability. How
do you metabolize metal?
Message no. 18
From: The Cuckoo Clock <cukoo@*****.NET>
Subject: Re: Regeneration (Was: Re: scary thought)
Date: Wed, 18 Oct 1995 10:34:48 -0700
>> Rejection is an issue with anyone, not just vampires, but even organ
>> transplats have to deal with that, so I would think they have ways around
>> dealing with rejection. Not that I'm a doctor or anything.
>
>>That's not what I meant... the highly magical nature of Vampiric
>>regeneration would reject the cyber. Not to mention when they take on Mist
>>Form, the cyber would drop out.
>
>a vampires clothing doesn't fall off when then take on mist form so why
>would the cyberware??

I remember seeing somewhere in SRII (under physical and mana spells when
talking about whether or not cyber is effected I think) that once essence is
paid, is is part of the person. Under that, wouldn't the vampires cyberware
also go into mist form?
Message no. 19
From: Marc A Renouf <jormung@*****.UMICH.EDU>
Subject: Re: Regeneration (Was: Re: scary thought)
Date: Wed, 18 Oct 1995 18:08:50 -0400
On Wed, 18 Oct 1995, Peter Rogers wrote:

> In regards to cyberware and mages, yes they do get to keep it even
> when they shapeshift, but thats a purely magical thing. In this process,
> everything is under a manipulation spell. SHapeshifters aren't under a
> continuous manipulation spell. As it was stated before, "molecular cohesion
> of cells" and metabolism are the key words to a shapeshifters ability. How
> do you metabolize metal?

The same way you "control the molecular cohesion" of your own
cells...Magic. Suspension of disbelief works both ways here. What works
for one creature should work for another. That's why most of the
abilities that the paranormal animals are listed as "parabiological."
That is, the ability uses magic to function.

Marc
Message no. 20
From: Robert Watkins <bob@**.NTU.EDU.AU>
Subject: Re: Regeneration (Was: Re: scary thought)
Date: Thu, 19 Oct 1995 09:39:36 +0930
Marc A Renouf wrote:
>
> On Wed, 18 Oct 1995, Robert Watkins wrote:
>
> > That's not what I meant... the highly magical nature of Vampiric
> > regeneration would reject the cyber. Not to mention when they take on Mist
> > Form, the cyber would drop out.
>
> Not necessarily. If you view the implantation recovery time from
> cyberware as a "wound" then perhaps the vampire's body would want to heal
> it. But if you view that recovery tim as not so much from wounds as from
> time to get used to using your new ware, running the necessary
> diagnostics, and tweaking the system such that it doesn't give weird
> feedback, then there is absolutely no reason the body would reject it.
> You can't "heal out" what's implanted in your body (unless there's a hole
> for stuff to slide out as you heal, but in many cases of
> cyber-implantation this isn't so).

I view it as a wound. The book says, under "Elective Surgery" that it is a
wound. Futhermore, the regenerative ability is, IMHO, the forcing of the
body back to the "aural mold". Cyberware, you may recall, isn't part of
that mold, and neither is bioware. So they get rejected.

> Also, on the subject of cyberware dropping out when in mist form
> remember that a mage's cyberware changes with him when he casts a
> shapeshift spell. He's paid Essence for it, so it's now part of his body
> and thus affected by the spell. Why should a vampire be any different?

'Cause of the aural mold again... the sorcery involved in shapeshift forces
the aural mold. I don't think the innate ability would.

--
Robert Watkins bob@**.ntu.edu.au
Real Programmers never work 9 to 5. If any real programmers
are around at 9 am, it's because they were up all night.
*** Finger me for my geek code ***
Message no. 21
From: Robert Watkins <bob@**.NTU.EDU.AU>
Subject: Re: Regeneration (Was: Re: scary thought)
Date: Thu, 19 Oct 1995 09:41:01 +0930
St. Jean, Ricky wrote:
>
>> More to the point, even if you COULD get it into them, their body would
>> reject it.
>
> But the point of spending essence is that your body has accepted it.
> One thing I would make certain however is that all bioware must be cultured.
> Then wouldn't the vampires metabolism view this as natural?

No... it wouldn't fit their aura, so the regen ability would destroy the
mods.

--
Robert Watkins bob@**.ntu.edu.au
Real Programmers never work 9 to 5. If any real programmers
are around at 9 am, it's because they were up all night.
*** Finger me for my geek code ***
Message no. 22
From: Robert Watkins <bob@**.NTU.EDU.AU>
Subject: Re: Regeneration (Was: Re: scary thought)
Date: Thu, 19 Oct 1995 09:44:43 +0930
St. Jean, Ricky wrote:
> >That's not what I meant... the highly magical nature of Vampiric
> >regeneration would reject the cyber. Not to mention when they take on Mist
> >Form, the cyber would drop out.
>
> a vampires clothing doesn't fall off when then take on mist form so why
> would the cyberware??
>

Maybe it doesn't in the "Dracula" movies, but it does in SR... though I've
got no reference for vamps, in particular, shapeshifters end up naked when
they change. Look at Striper, for example.

> >Besides, cyber wouldn't help a Vampire, it'd hurt it.. a lower maximum
> >essence would mean they have to feed more often, which draws more attention
> >to them.
>
> Why would they have to feed more often? They still loose 1 essence per
> month.

A lower maximum essence => less essence to lose => can't store up and then
hide for nearly a year => more frequent feedings => more likely to get
noticed.

--
Robert Watkins bob@**.ntu.edu.au
Real Programmers never work 9 to 5. If any real programmers
are around at 9 am, it's because they were up all night.
*** Finger me for my geek code ***
Message no. 23
From: Robert Watkins <bob@**.NTU.EDU.AU>
Subject: Re: Regeneration (Was: Re: scary thought)
Date: Thu, 19 Oct 1995 09:46:53 +0930
The Cuckoo Clock wrote:
> I remember seeing somewhere in SRII (under physical and mana spells when
> talking about whether or not cyber is effected I think) that once essence is
> paid, is is part of the person. Under that, wouldn't the vampires cyberware
> also go into mist form?

*sigh* no... essence payment makes it a part of you, but it doesn't change
your aura, which is what the innate abilites of regeneration and mist form
must use. Second, you guys STILL haven't said how you get it into the vamp,
except for the case of pre-cybered individuals. And if they got the
benefits, then why would the vampire make something that would be far more
competitve than him/her, anyway? And it still wouldn't work, cause of the
aural mold, again.

--
Robert Watkins bob@**.ntu.edu.au
Real Programmers never work 9 to 5. If any real programmers
are around at 9 am, it's because they were up all night.
*** Finger me for my geek code ***
Message no. 24
From: Peter Rogers <DarkAngelI@******.COM>
Subject: Re: Regeneration (Was: Re: scary thought)
Date: Wed, 18 Oct 1995 21:05:26 -0700
----------------------------- Begin Original Text
-----------------------------


I view it as a wound. The book says, under "Elective Surgery" that it is a
wound. Futhermore, the regenerative ability is, IMHO, the forcing of the
body back to the "aural mold". Cyberware, you may recall, isn't part of
that mold, and neither is bioware. So they get rejected.

'Cause of the aural mold again... the sorcery involved in shapeshift forces
the aural mold. I don't think the innate ability would.
----------------------------- End Original Text -----------------------------

This is exactly what I mean. The magic used for unatural shapeshifting is
just that. It is not innate, therefore learned for a specific job. The innate
ability is for what the being started with. Thank you for understanding.
The
Dark Angel
Message no. 25
From: Peter Rogers <DarkAngelI@******.COM>
Subject: Re: Regeneration (Was: Re: scary thought)
Date: Wed, 18 Oct 1995 21:06:56 -0700
----------------------------- Begin Original Text
-----------------------------

> But the point of spending essence is that your body has accepted it.
> One thing I would make certain however is that all bioware must be
cultured.
> Then wouldn't the vampires metabolism view this as natural?

No... it wouldn't fit their aura, so the regen ability would destroy the
mods.
----------------------------- End Original Text -----------------------------
Right again!
Message no. 26
From: Peter Rogers <DarkAngelI@******.COM>
Subject: Re: Regeneration (Was: Re: scary thought)
Date: Wed, 18 Oct 1995 21:09:22 -0700
----------------------------- Begin Original Text
-----------------------------

*sigh* no... essence payment makes it a part of you, but it doesn't change
your aura, which is what the innate abilites of regeneration and mist form
must use. Second, you guys STILL haven't said how you get it into the vamp,
except for the case of pre-cybered individuals. And if they got the
benefits, then why would the vampire make something that would be far more
competitve than him/her, anyway? And it still wouldn't work, cause of the
aural mold, again.
----------------------------- End Original Text -----------------------------

My GOD! This man is a bloody GENIUS!!!
Message no. 27
From: Robert Watkins <bob@**.NTU.EDU.AU>
Subject: Re: Regeneration (Was: Re: scary thought)
Date: Thu, 19 Oct 1995 14:04:12 +0930
Marc A Renouf wrote:
> The same way you "control the molecular cohesion" of your own
> cells...Magic. Suspension of disbelief works both ways here. What works
> for one creature should work for another. That's why most of the
> abilities that the paranormal animals are listed as "parabiological."
> That is, the ability uses magic to function.

But what does the magic use? In the case of the mage, it uses an image from
the mind of the caster. In the case of the innate ability, it'd have to use
something innate to the creature... the aura.

--
Robert Watkins bob@**.ntu.edu.au
Real Programmers never work 9 to 5. If any real programmers
are around at 9 am, it's because they were up all night.
*** Finger me for my geek code ***
Message no. 28
From: Robert Watkins <bob@**.NTU.EDU.AU>
Subject: Re: Regeneration (Was: Re: scary thought)
Date: Thu, 19 Oct 1995 14:12:40 +0930
Peter Rogers wrote:
> My GOD! This man is a bloody GENIUS!!!

Aw shucks... :)

More importantly than compliements to myself, though, how you treat the
rtopic of cyber in vamps is dependant on how you view the magic of
Shadowrun. I personally view it as operating to fairly strict rules AND
being WYTIWYG... but mainly I see it as a coherent structure, and I try to
use the rules to cover situations.

What I really hate about a lot of magic systems is "You can do that, you
can do that, you can't do this", without any "whys"... If you read the
sourcebooks, you get a clear idea of how magic works in SR.

--
Robert Watkins bob@**.ntu.edu.au
Real Programmers never work 9 to 5. If any real programmers
are around at 9 am, it's because they were up all night.
*** Finger me for my geek code ***
Message no. 29
From: Mark Steedman <RSMS@******.EEE.RGU.AC.UK>
Subject: Re: Regeneration (Was: Re: scary thought)
Date: Thu, 19 Oct 1995 08:47:13 GMT
Robert Watkins writes
>
[on cloathing etc transforming]

> Maybe it doesn't in the "Dracula" movies, but it does in SR... though I've
> got no reference for vamps, in particular, shapeshifters end up naked when
> they change. Look at Striper, for example.
>
Same problem results with the shapechange and transforming spell magic
(at least most of it), fine turn into a tiger, but you no longer have
any armour, and when you drop the spell :)

On vampires and cyber the real problem it installation. The
regeneration power is far to fast for accurate surgery on a vampire.

If the ware was in the dude before vamping it will stay. After all
the virus could 'snapshot' the aura, including ware, when it takes
effect. It would be difficult to expel if healed in. I have seen
people suggest it still fals out if the vamp ever goes mist however
as its still not a natural part of the being [you could equally rule
it stayed because it payed essence though].

Mark
Message no. 30
From: Gurth <gurth@******.NL>
Subject: Re: Regeneration (Was: Re: scary thought)
Date: Thu, 19 Oct 1995 11:09:25 +0100
St. Jean, Ricky said on 18 Oct 95...

[Vampires etc. & cyber/bioware]
> But the point of spending essence is that your body has accepted it.
> One thing I would make certain however is that all bioware must be cultured.
> Then wouldn't the vampires metabolism view this as natural?

I would think so. But then again, I would also allow a vampire any
cyberware and bioware he/she had before becoming a vampire. Use mist
form, however, and the cyber might just drop out :)

--
Gurth@******.nl - http://www.xs4all.nl/~gurth/index.html
Reality < Television
-> NERPS Project Leader & Unofficial Shadowrun Guru <-

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Message no. 31
From: Robert Watkins <bob@**.NTU.EDU.AU>
Subject: Re: Regeneration (Was: Re: scary thought)
Date: Thu, 19 Oct 1995 21:28:45 +0930
Mark Steedman wrote:
> On vampires and cyber the real problem it installation. The
> regeneration power is far to fast for accurate surgery on a vampire.
>
> If the ware was in the dude before vamping it will stay. After all
> the virus could 'snapshot' the aura, including ware, when it takes
> effect. It would be difficult to expel if healed in. I have seen

*sigh* Cyber and bioware do NOT change your aura. What they do is weaken
it. So "snapshotting" the aura at the time of infection won't notice the
cyber.

That's why when you get cyber taken out, you don't regain essence. Surely
you wouldn't suggest that if a vamp which somehow got cyber had it removed,
it'd regrow it simply 'cause the vamp paid Essence for it?

> people suggest it still fals out if the vamp ever goes mist however
> as its still not a natural part of the being [you could equally rule
> it stayed because it payed essence though].

--
Robert Watkins bob@**.ntu.edu.au
Real Programmers never work 9 to 5. If any real programmers
are around at 9 am, it's because they were up all night.
*** Finger me for my geek code ***
Message no. 32
From: The Digital Mage <mn3rge@****.AC.UK>
Subject: Re: Regeneration (Was: Re: scary thought)
Date: Thu, 19 Oct 1995 14:21:59 +0100
On Thu, 19 Oct 1995, Robert Watkins wrote:

> *sigh* Cyber and bioware do NOT change your aura. What they do is weaken
> it. So "snapshotting" the aura at the time of infection won't notice the
> cyber.
>
> That's why when you get cyber taken out, you don't regain essence. Surely
> you wouldn't suggest that if a vamp which somehow got cyber had it removed,
> it'd regrow it simply 'cause the vamp paid Essence for it?
>
I must congratulate you on your aural mould theory, it is plausible,
consistent and playable. However I must admit I like the idea that
turning to mist form does not lead to cyberware dropping out, and I even
allow clothing to change with the vamp! What I agree with is that
cyberware etc can't be implanted after the embrace.

Shapeshifters, I would say clothes don't change with them but thats just
me.

I must state that I am very much influenced by Whitewolf's Vampire: The
MAsquerade and Werewolf: The Apocalypse which allow vamps' clothes to
change with them but only allow werewolves' clothes to change if they are
"dedicated". I actually use WW's vamps as this gives more variety and
plot hooks.

BTW the current Prince of Seattle is Mathyas Vindred -a Ventrue :)

The Digital Mage : mn3rge@****.ac.uk
Shadowrun Web Site under construction at
http://www.bath.ac.uk/~mn3rge/Shadowrun.html
Message no. 33
From: Peter Rogers <DarkAngelI@******.COM>
Subject: Re: Regeneration (Was: Re: scary thought)
Date: Thu, 19 Oct 1995 08:49:15 -0700
> But the point of spending essence is that your body has accepted it.
> One thing I would make certain however is that all bioware must be
cultured.
> Then wouldn't the vampires metabolism view this as natural?

Not necessarily. Yes it may be the same genetically, but its not a natural
part of their aura. Their aura is like a set of blue prints. If it wasn't
there to start, it can't stay. Besides, how do you get the cyber or bioware
into the being? It just can't be done.

>I would think so. But then again, I would also allow a vampire any
cyberware and bioware he/she had before becoming a vampire.

This is where it gets tricky. When infected with the HMHVV virus, the person
undergoes drastic physiological changes. As of right now I could argue both
ways that pre-existent cyber/bioware could or couldn't remain. Sorry.

> Use mist form, however, and the cyber might just drop out :)

More likely than not. They have mental control over their cells, not over the
cyberware.
Message no. 34
From: Peter Rogers <DarkAngelI@******.COM>
Subject: Re: Regeneration (Was: Re: scary thought)
Date: Thu, 19 Oct 1995 08:58:47 -0700
----------------------------- Begin Original Text
-----------------------------

*sigh* Cyber and bioware do NOT change your aura. What they do is weaken
it. So "snapshotting" the aura at the time of infection won't notice the
cyber.

>That's why when you get cyber taken out, you don't regain essence. Surely
you wouldn't suggest that if a vamp which somehow got cyber had it removed,
it'd regrow it simply 'cause the vamp paid Essence for it?

This is an excellent point. This would lead me to beleive then that all
cyberware would most likely be rejected by the body and in the event of a
cyberlimb, a natural one would grow.

> people suggest it still fals out if the vamp ever goes mist however
> as its still not a natural part of the being [you could equally rule
> it stayed because it payed essence though.]

The concept of paying essence, though, is that it is not now a part of your
body, but rather that you have removed and invaded parts and this causes
trauma to the spirit. If you read Cybertechnology, you'll notice how the
concept of overdrawing on essence (ie Essence equals -7) the spirit wants to
leave the body because the body is dead to it. Cybermancy is like a spell
that "traps" the spirit in the body. It doesn't mean that it part of you
aura, it means you have very little aura left.
Message no. 35
From: Peter Rogers <DarkAngelI@******.COM>
Subject: Re: Regeneration (Was: Re: scary thought)
Date: Thu, 19 Oct 1995 09:14:58 -0700
>Shapeshifters, I would say clothes don't change with them but thats just me.

Right, the clothing can't change with them. If that were the case, then why
wouldn't the ground they're standing on change?
Message no. 36
From: Gary Carroll <gary@****.COM>
Subject: Re: Regeneration (Was: Re: scary thought)
Date: Thu, 19 Oct 1995 09:37:29 -0700
>>Shapeshifters, I would say clothes don't change with them but
>>thats just me.
>
>Right, the clothing can't change with them. If that were the case,
>then why wouldn't the ground they're standing on change?

I would say that they could make a spell that would allow their
clothes to change with then, but that it wouldn't normally do so.

Thanks
Gary C.
Message no. 37
From: "St. Jean, Ricky" <stjeanr@*******.CANADOREC.ON.CA>
Subject: Re: Regeneration (Was: Re: scary thought)
Date: Thu, 19 Oct 1995 14:48:00 PDT
----------------------------- Begin Original Text
-----------------------------

> But the point of spending essence is that your body has accepted it.
> One thing I would make certain however is that all bioware must be
cultured.
> Then wouldn't the vampires metabolism view this as natural?

No... it wouldn't fit their aura, so the regen ability would destroy the
mods.
----------------------------- End Original Text
-----------------------------
>Right again!

Wrong! How can mages tell if an individual has cyberware? Their aura is
duller. Yes that's right people the arua changes. When you spend essence
on something it becomes a part of you. Cultured bioware would also not be
affected because it comes from the original tissue of the vampire. The body
would see it as natural.


Ricky
"It's not a question of being paranoid, the question
is are you paranoid enough"
-strange days
<<<<<stjeanr@*******.CANADORE.ON.CA>>>>>
Message no. 38
From: The Cuckoo Clock <cukoo@*****.NET>
Subject: Re: Regeneration (Was: Re: scary thought)
Date: Thu, 19 Oct 1995 13:13:46 -0700
>Peter Rogers wrote:
>> My GOD! This man is a bloody GENIUS!!!
>
>Aw shucks... :)
>
>More importantly than compliements to myself, though, how you treat the
>rtopic of cyber in vamps is dependant on how you view the magic of
>Shadowrun. I personally view it as operating to fairly strict rules AND
>being WYTIWYG... but mainly I see it as a coherent structure, and I try to
>use the rules to cover situations.
>
>What I really hate about a lot of magic systems is "You can do that, you
>can do that, you can't do this", without any "whys"... If you read the
>sourcebooks, you get a clear idea of how magic works in SR.

I don't completely agree with your view, but these points I agree whole
heartedly with. IMHO, too many threads here have degenerated into what one
person thinks vs. what another person thinks, sometimes with little or no
literature to back either point.

Magic in SR is well written to cover most situations, and IMHO they
rationalize things well.
Message no. 39
From: Robert Watkins <bob@**.NTU.EDU.AU>
Subject: Re: Regeneration (Was: Re: scary thought)
Date: Fri, 20 Oct 1995 09:43:54 +0930
The Digital Mage wrote:
> >
> I must congratulate you on your aural mould theory, it is plausible,
> consistent and playable.

The kudos should go to the writers of "Cybertechnology".

> However I must admit I like the idea that
> turning to mist form does not lead to cyberware dropping out, and I even
> allow clothing to change with the vamp! What I agree with is that
> cyberware etc can't be implanted after the embrace.
>
> Shapeshifters, I would say clothes don't change with them but thats just
> me.

It's also FASA... in the novels (which is the only source of information on
this), Striper's clothes don't change with her.

--
Robert Watkins bob@**.ntu.edu.au
Real Programmers never work 9 to 5. If any real programmers
are around at 9 am, it's because they were up all night.
*** Finger me for my geek code ***
Message no. 40
From: Robert Watkins <bob@**.NTU.EDU.AU>
Subject: Re: Regeneration (Was: Re: scary thought)
Date: Fri, 20 Oct 1995 09:57:52 +0930
St. Jean, Ricky wrote:
> >Right again!
>
> Wrong! How can mages tell if an individual has cyberware? Their aura is
> duller. Yes that's right people the arua changes. When you spend essence
> on something it becomes a part of you. Cultured bioware would also not be
> affected because it comes from the original tissue of the vampire. The body
> would see it as natural.

*sigh* It weakens the aura's connection, it doesn't change the aura,
bioware doesn't become part of the aura, which is why healing spells have
problems with it, and I'm in a hurry...


--
Robert Watkins bob@**.ntu.edu.au
Real Programmers never work 9 to 5. If any real programmers
are around at 9 am, it's because they were up all night.
*** Finger me for my geek code ***
Message no. 41
From: The Digital Mage <mn3rge@****.ac.uk>
Subject: Re: Regeneration (Was: Re: scary thought)
Date: Sun, 5 Nov 1995 18:31:20 +0000 (GMT)
On Thu, 19 Oct 1995, St. Jean, Ricky wrote:

> Wrong! How can mages tell if an individual has cyberware? Their aura is
> duller. Yes that's right people the arua changes. When you spend essence
> on something it becomes a part of you. Cultured bioware would also not be
> affected because it comes from the original tissue of the vampire. The body
> would see it as natural.
>
Maybe they see the cyberware because they see the aura and the physical
body overlayed -where there are differences between the two, that
indicates cyberware has been implanted. Any thoughts?

The Digital Mage : mn3rge@****.ac.uk
Shadowrun Web Site under construction at
http://www.bath.ac.uk/~mn3rge/Shadowrun.html

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