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Message no. 1
From: Bruce <gyro@********.CO.ZA>
Subject: Related Languages (was Re: Languages)
Date: Mon, 2 Nov 1998 08:54:36 +0200
-----Original Message-----
From: Gurth <gurth@******.NL>
To: SHADOWRN@********.ITRIBE.NET <SHADOWRN@********.ITRIBE.NET>
Date: 31 October 1998 01:33
Subject: Re: Languages


<snip Morrigu>
That is reflected by the TNs for language use -- if you're trying to
communicate a simple concept ("I am hungry") you'll have an easier
time
than when you want to discuss more complicated ideas ("When someone
comes
through that door, warn me, unless he's not carrying a gun in which
case
you get together some mates and deal with him yourself"). A higher
skill
means you will generally be able to roll successes against higher TNs,
which means you can communicate (or understand) complex ideas more
readily
than someone with a lower skill.

For example, see what you can make of these two:

1) "Waar is het toilet?"

2) "Ik ben gisteren naar de stad gegaan en heb daar een nieuwe fiets
met
trommelremmen en vijftien versnellingen gekocht."

<snip Gurth>

As an Afrikaans speaker I have an ubfair advantage. Related languages,
those in the same linguistic group should be more easily
comprehensible to a speaker of the same group.

"I went to the city yesterday, and there I purchased a new bicycle
with drum brakes and fifteen gears."

BRUCE <gyro@********.co.za>
*Executive Engineer* *FrontLine Games*
Yo soy un disco quebrado
Yo tengo chicle en cerebro
sm:)e
Message no. 2
From: Gurth <gurth@******.NL>
Subject: Re: Related Languages (was Re: Languages)
Date: Mon, 2 Nov 1998 11:22:02 +0100
According to Bruce, at 8:54 on 2 Nov 98, the word on the street was...

> As an Afrikaans speaker I have an ubfair advantage. Related languages,
> those in the same linguistic group should be more easily
> comprehensible to a speaker of the same group.

I would imagine Germans should be able to understand it better than
English-speakers as well.

> "I went to the city yesterday, and there I purchased a new bicycle
> with drum brakes and fifteen gears."

Exactly, but not really surprising if you know the history of Afrikaans...

--
Gurth@******.nl - http://www.xs4all.nl/~gurth/index.html
I hope I learn what makes me look at things so wrong.
-> NERPS Project Leader * ShadowRN GridSec * Unofficial Shadowrun Guru <-
-> The Plastic Warriors Page: http://www.xs4all.nl/~gurth/plastic.html <-
-> The New Character Mortuary: http://www.electricferret.com/mortuary/ <-

GC3.1: GAT/! d-(dpu) s:- !a>? C+(++)@ U P L E? W(++) N o? K- w+ O V? PS+
PE Y PGP- t(+) 5++ X++ R+++>$ tv+(++) b++@ DI? D+ G(++) e h! !r(---) y?
Incubated into the First Church of the Sqooshy Ball, 21-05-1998
Message no. 3
From: Brian Wong <rook@*****.INFINEX.COM>
Subject: Re: Related Languages (was Re: Languages)
Date: Mon, 2 Nov 1998 06:52:25 -0800
> > As an Afrikaans speaker I have an ubfair advantage. Related languages,
> > those in the same linguistic group should be more easily
> > comprehensible to a speaker of the same group.
>
> I would imagine Germans should be able to understand it better than
> English-speakers as well.
>
> > "I went to the city yesterday, and there I purchased a new bicycle
> > with drum brakes and fifteen gears."
>
> Exactly, but not really surprising if you know the history of Afrikaans...


However I think the poster was merely using that as example of
similar languages; which was the main point (and subject of the topic).

I don't see any comments in SR on dealing with this. My opinion
would be to reduce TN's for communication tasks between speakers of different
yet similar languages.
Or to simply allow for a task roll roll to begin with; with increased
TN's since it's not the same language; but merely similar.
I think this second method would work best.

My understanding is that tasks rolls aren't needed in communication
anyway unless dealing with dialects, complex points being expressed to people
outside of one's group norm, and similar issues. But I would also require them
with similar languages or with people with very low skill when that low skill
is also a reflect of a non native speaker language.

--
Rook ¿Õ ¿ë ±â WebRPG Town Hall Magistrate
townhall.webrpg.com <0){{{{><
__ Super WebRing http://orion.supersoldiers.com/heroes/webring.html
/.)\ http://www.infinex.com/~rook/SH/SHlinks.html Super Hero Links
\(@/ http://www.infinex.com/~rook/SH/ Super Hero RPG Site
Message no. 4
From: Martin Steffens <chimerae@***.IE>
Subject: Re: Related Languages (was Re: Languages)
Date: Mon, 2 Nov 1998 17:50:42 +0000
and thus did Gurth speak on 2 Nov 98 at 11:22:

> > "I went to the city yesterday, and there I purchased a new bicycle
> > with drum brakes and fifteen gears."
>
> Exactly, but not really surprising if you know the history of Afrikaans...

You should have excluded Dutch/Afrikaans speaking people from this
competition :P

Tsk, no one uses small print in e-mail any more... :)

Martin Steffens
chimerae@***.ie
Message no. 5
From: Gurth <gurth@******.NL>
Subject: Re: Related Languages (was Re: Languages)
Date: Mon, 2 Nov 1998 19:31:22 +0100
According to Brian Wong, at 6:52 on 2 Nov 98, the word on the street was...

> My understanding is that tasks rolls aren't needed in communication
> anyway unless dealing with dialects

I'll have to disagree here. I speak a Dutch dialect in everyday life, and
though I can speak "standard" Dutch I only do so in special situations,
like when I'm outside the area I live in, or dealing with people from
other parts of the country (not with "imports," BTW -- they choose to come
and live here, so they can bloody well try to understand the local
dialect). Anyway, my point is that people understand what I say, and if
they don't, all it usually takes is using a synonym instead of the word
causing problems. Yes, dialects can cause some trouble, but not enough to
warrant a language roll for people familiar with the language, IMHO.

> But I would also require them with similar languages or with people with
> very low skill when that low skill is also a reflect of a non native
> speaker language.

That's usually when I make characters roll to see if they understand a
language, not for languages they deal with everyday. For example, my
players' last run was to Germany and I made them roll German skill tests
reasonably often, yet in Seattle they've never made a language skill test
at all, I think.

--
Gurth@******.nl - http://www.xs4all.nl/~gurth/index.html
I hope I learn what makes me look at things so wrong.
-> NERPS Project Leader * ShadowRN GridSec * Unofficial Shadowrun Guru <-
-> The Plastic Warriors Page: http://www.xs4all.nl/~gurth/plastic.html <-
-> The New Character Mortuary: http://www.electricferret.com/mortuary/ <-

GC3.1: GAT/! d-(dpu) s:- !a>? C+(++)@ U P L E? W(++) N o? K- w+ O V? PS+
PE Y PGP- t(+) 5++ X++ R+++>$ tv+(++) b++@ DI? D+ G(++) e h! !r(---) y?
Incubated into the First Church of the Sqooshy Ball, 21-05-1998
Message no. 6
From: Gurth <gurth@******.NL>
Subject: Re: Related Languages (was Re: Languages)
Date: Mon, 2 Nov 1998 19:31:22 +0100
According to Martin Steffens, at 17:50 on 2 Nov 98, the word on the street was...

> You should have excluded Dutch/Afrikaans speaking people from this
> competition :P

Yeah, they have an unfair advantage. You and I seem to be the only Dutch
speakers on the list, and I hadn't counted on any South Africans...

> Tsk, no one uses small print in e-mail any more... :)

No, because that would require HTML and <GridSec>we don't like their kind
over here, pardner</GridSec> :)

--
Gurth@******.nl - http://www.xs4all.nl/~gurth/index.html
I hope I learn what makes me look at things so wrong.
-> NERPS Project Leader * ShadowRN GridSec * Unofficial Shadowrun Guru <-
-> The Plastic Warriors Page: http://www.xs4all.nl/~gurth/plastic.html <-
-> The New Character Mortuary: http://www.electricferret.com/mortuary/ <-

GC3.1: GAT/! d-(dpu) s:- !a>? C+(++)@ U P L E? W(++) N o? K- w+ O V? PS+
PE Y PGP- t(+) 5++ X++ R+++>$ tv+(++) b++@ DI? D+ G(++) e h! !r(---) y?
Incubated into the First Church of the Sqooshy Ball, 21-05-1998
Message no. 7
From: "XaOs [David Goth]" <xaos@*****.NET>
Subject: Re: Related Languages (was Re: Languages)
Date: Mon, 2 Nov 1998 13:12:09 -0600
> As an Afrikaans speaker I have an ubfair advantage. Related languages,
> those in the same linguistic group should be more easily
> comprehensible to a speaker of the same group.

Didn't SR<3 have a mechanic for this? As in languages within the same
linguistic group had a lower target number? The same idea could work the
same for SR3.



-XaOs-
xaos@*****.net
-David Goth-
Message no. 8
From: Brian Wong <rook@*****.INFINEX.COM>
Subject: Re: Related Languages (was Re: Languages)
Date: Mon, 2 Nov 1998 11:33:49 -0800
> > My understanding is that tasks rolls aren't needed in communication
> > anyway unless dealing with dialects
>
> I'll have to disagree here. I speak a Dutch dialect in everyday life, and
> though I can speak "standard" Dutch I only do so in special situations,
> like when I'm outside the area I live in, or dealing with people from
> other parts of the country (not with "imports," BTW -- they choose to come
> and live here, so they can bloody well try to understand the local
> dialect). Anyway, my point is that people understand what I say, and if
> they don't, all it usually takes is using a synonym instead of the word
> causing problems. Yes, dialects can cause some trouble, but not enough to
> warrant a language roll for people familiar with the language, IMHO.
>

But see, that's more of an 'accent' issue than a dialect one.
Try being a native of Cheju island trying to talk to someone from Seoul.
You'll take 5 times as long, lose half the context, and will even be
screwed if you write it down. Unless you have a person who speaks
both Korean dialects easy or even understandable communication won't
happen.

Now try someone from GuanDong Sih and someone from Beijing. Same
country. But the two dialects are so different they're ussually considered
different languages.

Or take someone from Idaho, and put him in Jamacaa (sp?)...
Possible. But not easy and easy to make a mistake.

--
Rook ¿Õ ¿ë ±â WebRPG Town Hall Magistrate
townhall.webrpg.com <0){{{{><
__ Super WebRing http://orion.supersoldiers.com/heroes/webring.html
/.)\ http://www.infinex.com/~rook/SH/SHlinks.html Super Hero Links
\(@/ http://www.infinex.com/~rook/SH/ Super Hero RPG Site
Message no. 9
From: Steadfast <laughingman@*******.DE>
Subject: Re: Related Languages (was Re: Languages)
Date: Mon, 2 Nov 1998 02:00:01 +0100
And so it came to happen that Brian Wong wrote
:
<snip>
> I don't see any comments in SR on dealing with this. My opinion
> would be to reduce TN's for communication tasks between speakers of different
> yet similar languages.
> Or to simply allow for a task roll roll to begin with; with increased
> TN's since it's not the same language; but merely similar.
> I think this second method would work best.
Under the rules you simply default from Int. to understand other
languages in which you are not skilled in. You receive the usual +4
modifier for defaulting from attributes. It also states that languages
which are similar should have a lower modifier (GM discretion)
SR3rd. states that similar languages (the example given on Page 91, 1st
column, 3rd. paragraph uses italian and spain) should have a lower
modifier for defaulting from Int. then languages that have are out of
their linguistic group. I sure miss the language table out of SR2nd.
then, would help the newbees a lot to figure which language is from
which group then.
With that aditional information everything would be fine for me, but
without the lingos groups it does not help anyone other than guessing if
it is alright. I am no linguist and I sure have no Idea which language
originated from another but for example latin helped me to understand
written french (with the help from some english frases) although I did
not have any french in school. And that was just out of my mind, so raw
inteligence figured the text together although the latin and english
helped (so only a +2 for Int. check;o).
--
---> Steadfast...Selfproclaimed Protector of Gerber BABY's
Surfin' through the 'trix is
not like dustin crops boy!
Uh, 089 of 200 it states in Gerber BABY...
Message no. 10
From: Gurth <gurth@******.NL>
Subject: Re: Related Languages (was Re: Languages)
Date: Tue, 3 Nov 1998 11:00:32 +0100
According to Brian Wong, at 11:33 on 2 Nov 98, the word on the street was...

> But see, that's more of an 'accent' issue than a dialect one.

Well, no. Or at least, it isn't to me. The way I see it, accent is the
difference between British English and American English -- the main
differences are different ways of pronouncing the same word (GArage vs.
gaRAge, etc.) while a dialect can change the words so far that they're
difficult to recognize, or uses different words completely -- which is the
difference between what I speak and "standard" Dutch.

> Try being a native of Cheju island trying to talk to someone from Seoul.
> You'll take 5 times as long, lose half the context, and will even be
> screwed if you write it down. Unless you have a person who speaks
> both Korean dialects easy or even understandable communication won't
> happen.

That's a more extreme form of dialect. Dutch dialects tend to get washed
out nowadays because of TV, and because some idiots have got it into their
heads that their kids won't be able to speak "proper" Dutch if they learn
a dialect, but if you go to Flanders I'll guarantee you that you'll find
Dutch dialects that have the same problem as the one you describe for
Korean.

To bring this back to SR, what this means is that the flat-out +2 for
dealing with someone speaking a dialect is nonsense. It could range
anywhere between +0 and +6, maybe even higher, I feel.

--
Gurth@******.nl - http://www.xs4all.nl/~gurth/index.html
Perjury does not include lying if lying is the
only sensible way to get you out of trouble.
-> NERPS Project Leader * ShadowRN GridSec * Unofficial Shadowrun Guru <-
-> The Plastic Warriors Page: http://www.xs4all.nl/~gurth/plastic.html <-
-> The New Character Mortuary: http://www.electricferret.com/mortuary/ <-

GC3.1: GAT/! d-(dpu) s:- !a>? C+(++)@ U P L E? W(++) N o? K- w+ O V? PS+
PE Y PGP- t(+) 5++ X++ R+++>$ tv+(++) b++@ DI? D+ G(++) e h! !r(---) y?
Incubated into the First Church of the Sqooshy Ball, 21-05-1998

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