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Message no. 1
From: Lort Gob <teunissen@***.NL>
Subject: Religion
Date: Tue, 10 Feb 1998 14:45:18 +0100
Hi y'all !!

I was working on a new PC, my Evil DM decided to kill my old one....
Well, actually it was my own fault, but I died by roleplaying well.
Honorable dead....:)

Well, on with the question:

My new PC will be religious, probably Katholic. The campaign will
be set in Seattle.
- How many people still have a religion by then, and how big is
the Katholic church compared to other religions ?
- Is there still a Pope and does he still lives in the Vatican ?
- What's the churches opinion about Cyberware ?
- What's the churches opinion about Magic ?
- What does a church look like in the 2050's ?

Cu,

Lort Gob
teunissen@***.nl
UIN: 4812743
Message no. 2
From: William Gallas <wgallas@*****.FR>
Subject: Re: Religion
Date: Tue, 10 Feb 1998 15:08:21 +0100
>My new PC will be religious, probably Katholic. The campaign will
>be set in Seattle.
>- How many people still have a religion by then, and how big is
>the Katholic church compared to other religions ?

IMO they're not much, especially in the UCAS. :(

>- Is there still a Pope and does he still lives in the Vatican ?

Yep. There's also an other pope in France. French church and Catholic
Church made a schism (in SR world for americans... :)
This one (French one) is quite religious but is also very political. This
church has a big influence in France and keeps good relations with french
druids.

>- What's the churches opinion about Cyberware ?

None. It all depends on the way you use cyberware. However, I would say
that some theorists could declare cyberware detroys the soul. In that case,
some should state that cyberware shouldn't be used.

>- What's the churches opinion about Magic ?

For spells, it depends on the way you use this talent. If you cast to
healing spells, that's fine. For combat spells, that's another story...
Conjuration isn't a problem. However, you have to keep attention to what
you call and on the fact that you can't bind the being against its will,
which limits conjuration a bit.

>- What does a church look like in the 2050's ?

The Message from the Christ isn't linked to the date so it's quite the same
as it has always been. That's what makes it difficult for a catholic to
become a runner. No catholic could kill someone for money...
If you're interested into religious characters, perhaps you could try a
druid or a follower of a druidic movement.


Cobra.

E-mail adress : wgallas@*****.fr
Quote : "Never trust an elf"
Message no. 3
From: Mike Bobroff <AirWisp@***.COM>
Subject: Re: Religion
Date: Tue, 10 Feb 1998 09:46:56 EST
In a message dated 98-02-10 08:48:34 EST, you write:

> My new PC will be religious, probably Katholic. The campaign will
> be set in Seattle.
> - How many people still have a religion by then, and how big is
> the Katholic church compared to other religions ?

Catholicism (and variants thereof) is still pretty big ... especially still
amongst the Latin countries and in Europe still ... though it has been tossed
out of Tir'na Nog and Aztlan pretty harshly (though in Aztlan the religion
flourishes in the rural areas ...

> - Is there still a Pope and does he still lives in the Vatican ?

Yes ... and in the summer months he goes to his summer palace just north of
Rome by about 60 - 70 kilometers or so (can't remember the name of the town)
...

> - What's the churches opinion about Cyberware ?

Varies ... extremists would say no ... more liberal ones would say why not ...

> - What's the churches opinion about Magic ?

See the above comment about cyberware ...

> - What does a church look like in the 2050's ?

Just like they would now ... thought the newer ones would incorporate some of
the new technologies into the church itself ... like a Ruthenium sculpture of
Christ or the Madonna ... and other things of that type ...

Mike

P.S. A note, the Vatican in SR is a NUCLEAR power ...
Message no. 4
From: William Gallas <wgallas@*****.FR>
Subject: Re: Religion
Date: Tue, 10 Feb 1998 15:59:09 +0100
>Mike
>
>P.S. A note, the Vatican in SR is a NUCLEAR power ...

Where did you ever see it ?

I also forgot to say that Vatican has great deckers : the new jesuits.


Cobra.

E-mail adress : wgallas@*****.fr
Quote : "Never trust an elf"
Message no. 5
From: "J. G. du Chatinier" <chatin@*******.NL>
Subject: Re: Religion
Date: Tue, 10 Feb 1998 16:47:56 +0100
At 14:45 10/02/1998 +0100, you wrote:
>Hi y'all !!
>
>I was working on a new PC, my Evil DM decided to kill my old one....
>Well, actually it was my own fault, but I died by roleplaying well.
>Honorable dead....:)
**Gobbo? This was most probably one of the worst puns I've _ever_ seen... ;)

Oh, and on another note, does anyone have some good sources of info about
Katholicism in general? I'm the GM y'see, and to my shame I must admit that
my knowledge of religion is very sparse indeed...

Jod
chatin@*******.nl
http://www.euronet.nl/users/chatin/index.htm
IDM
Male
Message no. 6
From: Lehlan Decker <decker@****.FSU.EDU>
Subject: Re: Religion
Date: Tue, 10 Feb 1998 11:12:31 -0500
On Tue, Feb 10, 1998 at 03:59:09PM +0100, William Gallas wrote:
> >Mike
> >
> >P.S. A note, the Vatican in SR is a NUCLEAR power ...
>
> Where did you ever see it ?
>
> I also forgot to say that Vatican has great deckers : the new jesuits.
>
>
I think it was mentioned in the Aztlan source book. (Anybody want
to check me on that). Also check out several stories in Awakenings and
Grimoire, on how society, religion, and magic interact.


--
--------------------------------------------------------------------
Lehlan Decker 644-4534 Systems Development
decker@****.fsu.edu http://www.scri.fsu.edu/~decker
--------------------------------------------------------------------
Some people are alive, only because its illegal to kill them.
Message no. 7
From: David Buehrer <dbuehrer@******.CARL.ORG>
Subject: Re: Religion
Date: Tue, 10 Feb 1998 09:40:33 -0700
J. G. du Chatinier wrote:
/
/ Oh, and on another note, does anyone have some good sources of info about
/ Katholicism in general? I'm the GM y'see, and to my shame I must admit that
/ my knowledge of religion is very sparse indeed...

On the web start at http://www.vatican.va

Other than that there's your local public library :)

BTW, why are you spelling it with a "K"?

-David
--
"Wrinkles should merely indicate where smiles have been."
- Mark Twain
--
http://www.geocities.com/TimesSquare/1068/homepage.htm
Message no. 8
From: Lort Gob <teunissen@***.NL>
Subject: Re: Religion
Date: Tue, 10 Feb 1998 17:55:34 +0100
>>I was working on a new PC, my Evil DM decided to kill my old one....
>>Well, actually it was my own fault, but I died by roleplaying well.
>>Honorable dead....:)
>**Gobbo? This was most probably one of the worst puns I've _ever_ seen... ;)
It is ? :) Well, just admit I'm right and I'll be happy....
Message no. 9
From: Lort Gob <teunissen@***.NL>
Subject: Re: Religion
Date: Tue, 10 Feb 1998 17:55:33 +0100
>/ Oh, and on another note, does anyone have some good sources of info about
>/ Katholicism in general? I'm the GM y'see, and to my shame I must admit that
>/ my knowledge of religion is very sparse indeed...
>
>On the web start at http://www.vatican.va
>Other than that there's your local public library :)
Yeah, right....
>
>BTW, why are you spelling it with a "K"?
'Cause it's Kathloliek in Holland.....
Message no. 10
From: Jeremiah Stevens <jeremiah@********.EDU>
Subject: Re: Religion
Date: Tue, 10 Feb 1998 12:06:09 -0500
> >- What's the churches opinion about Magic ?
>
> For spells, it depends on the way you use this talent. If you cast to
> healing spells, that's fine. For combat spells, that's another story...
> Conjuration isn't a problem. However, you have to keep attention to what
> you call and on the fact that you can't bind the being against its will,
> which limits conjuration a bit.

Basically, magic is considered an expression of natural law and therefore
in keeping with God's will and not inherently evil. Thus, it depends upon
how magic is used.

>
> >- What does a church look like in the 2050's ?
>
> The Message from the Christ isn't linked to the date so it's quite the same
> as it has always been. That's what makes it difficult for a catholic to
> become a runner. No catholic could kill someone for money...

Actually, I think Catholicism would be one of the easier religions to
follow while shadowrunning.
Historically, the Mafia has been devoutly Catholic and they do not seem to
have any problem killing people for money. Again, the Condottieri, the
famous Italian mercenary groups, were predominately Catholic.
Secondly, the Catholic doctrine of St. Aquinas allows killing in a number
of situations, and the law of double effect would also make a
shadowrunning Catholic much less morally responsible for deaths which
occurd as unintended side-effects of an action.
Message no. 11
From: David Buehrer <dbuehrer@******.CARL.ORG>
Subject: Re: Religion
Date: Tue, 10 Feb 1998 10:11:17 -0700
Lort Gob wrote:
/
/ >BTW, why are you spelling it with a "K"?
/
/ 'Cause it's Kathloliek in Holland.....

Oh. FYI, the english spelling is Catholic.

-David
--
"Wrinkles should merely indicate where smiles have been."
- Mark Twain
--
http://www.geocities.com/TimesSquare/1068/homepage.htm
Message no. 12
From: Paul Yan <bushidoboy@**********.COM>
Subject: Re: Religion
Date: Tue, 10 Feb 1998 09:12:16 -0800
You could look up at various Christian sites and
Catholic sites and under people's personal web
pages. A good, non-biased, almost all data and
factual info-site on Christianity/Catholicism is
I think under an AOL site under some religious
newspaper heading. Don't quote me on this, but
I think it was somewhere there. I find that
introducing or having Christianity and
Catholicism in a SR game kinda of a problem.
Most people are cool with it, but some gamers
might have problems if they actually are
Catholic and/or Christian. My group is a bunch
of screwed-up races and religions, so we have no
problems, but... you never know!
===
======[====================>
P.H.Y. A.K.A. BUSHIDOBOY@**********.COM/
"HIIIYYYYAAAAAAAAAAAAAA"

Those who cannot tell what they desire or
expect, still sigh and struggle with indefinite
thoughts and vast wishes.
-- Ralph Waldo Emerson




_________________________________________________________
DO YOU YAHOO!?
Get your free @*****.com address at http://mail.yahoo.com
Message no. 13
From: Paul Yan <bushidoboy@**********.COM>
Subject: Re: Religion
Date: Tue, 10 Feb 1998 09:21:13 -0800
The Crusades were one of the largest and
bloodiest of wars over religion.
Christian/Catholics (I'm sorry about grouping
the two together, I'm not too sure about the
difference between them. NO OFFENSE IS
INTENDED!!!) fought and looted hundreds of
towns, villages, and burgs for treasure under
the name of God! Also, Robert N. Charrette's
trilogy, the one with Sam "Twist" Verner and all
of the big names of SR, (I forgot the titles all
of a sudden, GOMEN NASAI!!!). That main
character was a devout Catholic. He never
killed or murdured intentionally, he performed
and used magic (He was a Dog Shaman!!!), and he
was considered a very high-level, professional
runner. This all proves how a runner can still
be one with the Church.
===
======[====================>
P.H.Y. A.K.A. BUSHIDOBOY@**********.COM/
"HIIIYYYYAAAAAAAAAAAAAA"

Those who cannot tell what they desire or
expect, still sigh and struggle with indefinite
thoughts and vast wishes.
-- Ralph Waldo Emerson




_________________________________________________________
DO YOU YAHOO!?
Get your free @*****.com address at http://mail.yahoo.com
Message no. 14
From: Frank Pelletier <jeanpell@****.IVIC.QC.CA>
Subject: Re: Religion
Date: Tue, 10 Feb 1998 12:57:51 +0000
Lort Gob <teunissen@***.NL> once wrote,

> Hi y'all !!
>
> I was working on a new PC, my Evil DM decided to kill my old one....
> Well, actually it was my own fault, but I died by roleplaying well.
> Honorable dead....:)
>
> Well, on with the question:
>
> My new PC will be religious, probably Katholic. The campaign will
> be set in Seattle.
> - How many people still have a religion by then, and how big is
> the Katholic church compared to other religions ?

The Catholic Church is still a very popular religion, I would say as
popular as it is right now...maybe even more, since most people turn to
religion in uncertain times (i.e. the Awakening)

> - Is there still a Pope and does he still lives in the Vatican ?

Yes, there is a Pope, he does live in the Vatican..and he has nukes! :)

> - What's the churches opinion about Cyberware ?
> - What's the churches opinion about Magic ?

I remember the Church stating in one of the sourcebooks that Magic was,
like all forces in the universe, something inherently passive, that could
be used for either good or evil. Therefore, it is not "The tool of the
Devil", but a tool like any other... and is so "officially" accepted by
the Vatican... of course, many other denominations may see it as heresy or
a gift from God...

Also note that the Vatican seems important somehow in the whole scheme of
things, especially the Jesuits, who are either Super-chromed warriors or
some of the best deckers in the world... according to soucebook
shadowtalk, of course... And, supposedly, they have a bunch of
shit-kicking hermetics called "The Templar Order"... who seem to scare the
shit out of the elves... But those things have never been further
explored in sourcebooks or, AFAIK, in litterature...

Trinity
-------------------------------------------------------
Frank Pelletier
Trinity@********.com, jeanpell@****.qc.ca
This message was brought to you by Race - "Race"

"Life is a blur"
Message no. 15
From: "Graves, Durand E. (Temporary at ALCOA)" <Durand.Graves@*****.COM>
Subject: Re: Religion
Date: Tue, 10 Feb 1998 13:12:46 -0500
----------
From: Lort Gob[SMTP:teunissen@***.NL]
Sent: Tuesday, February 10, 1998 8:45 AM
To: SHADOWRN@********.ITRIBE.NET
Subject: Religion

Hi y'all !!

I was working on a new PC, my Evil DM decided to kill my old one....
Well, actually it was my own fault, but I died by roleplaying well.
Honorable dead....:)

Well, on with the question:

My new PC will be religious, probably Katholic. The campaign will
be set in Seattle.
- How many people still have a religion by then, and how big is
the Katholic church compared to other religions ?
- Is there still a Pope and does he still lives in the Vatican ?
- What's the churches opinion about Cyberware ?
- What's the churches opinion about Magic ?
- What does a church look like in the 2050's ?

>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>

page 11 of the Grimoire is on religion and magic


-DEG.
Message no. 16
From: "J. G. du Chatinier" <chatin@*******.NL>
Subject: Re: Religion
Date: Tue, 10 Feb 1998 19:59:57 +0100
At 09:40 10/02/1998 -0700, you wrote:
>J. G. du Chatinier wrote:
>/
>/ Oh, and on another note, does anyone have some good sources of info about
>/ Katholicism in general? I'm the GM y'see, and to my shame I must admit that
>/ my knowledge of religion is very sparse indeed...
>
>On the web start at http://www.vatican.va
***Sounds logical... Scary that.;)

>Other than that there's your local public library :)
***Yup... bet they don't have a very short version of the bible, do they?
(Other then, God did it, praise him.;))

>BTW, why are you spelling it with a "K"?
>
>-David

***Well, livin'in H^H^H^H^H^H^H^H^Herlands.. Yes, the Netherlands, does that
to you.. ;)

Jod
chatin@*******.nl
http://www.euronet.nl/users/chatin/index.htm
IDM
MAle
Message no. 17
From: Barbie <barbie@**********.COM>
Subject: Re: Religion
Date: Tue, 10 Feb 1998 20:39:13 +0100
At 10-Feb-98 wrote William Gallas:

>>Mike
>>
>>P.S. A note, the Vatican in SR is a NUCLEAR power ...

>Where did you ever see it ?

Black Madonna novel, dismiss this info as you wish.

--

Barbie
---------------------------------------------------------------
Did you know what a rhinoceros is?
All that is left from the unicorn.

http://www.amigaworld.com/barbie
FAQ keeper of SR_D, the german Shadowrun mailing list.
Amiga RC5 Team effort member.
---------------------------------------------------------------
Message no. 18
From: Brett Borger <bxb121@***.EDU>
Subject: Re: Religion
Date: Tue, 10 Feb 1998 15:22:03 EST
> >>P.S. A note, the Vatican in SR is a NUCLEAR power ...
>
> >Where did you ever see it ?
>
> Black Madonna novel, dismiss this info as you wish.

If there was ever a novel that I didn't want to be canon...(plot wise
that is).

-=SwiftOne=-
Message no. 19
From: Damon Harper <nomad74@*******.COM>
Subject: Re: Religion
Date: Tue, 10 Feb 1998 12:45:47 PST
>Oh, and on another note, does anyone have some good sources of info
about
>Katholicism in general? I'm the GM y'see, and to my shame I must admit
that
>my knowledge of religion is very sparse indeed...
>
>Jod

Yeah, read with these other ppl are post: It's spelled Catholic,
with a "C", not a "K".
Now, I'll give you a sample of what it's like to attend mass:
Sit.
Kneel.
Stand.
Kneel.
Sit.
Stand.
Kneel.
Sit.
Kneel.
Stand.
Repeat for about an hour or so.
Play a CD of choire singing and you've just attended mass.
:)

-Vagabond <nomad74@*******.com><ICQ 4297972>
___________________________________________________________
¹vag·a·bond \va-ge-bänd\ adj. 1: wandering, homeless
2: of, characteristic of, or leading the life of a vagrant
or tramp 3: leading an unsettled or irresponsible life

²vagabond n: one leading a vagabond life; esp : tramp


______________________________________________________
Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com
Message no. 20
From: Matb <mbreton@**.NETCOM.COM>
Subject: Re: Religion
Date: Tue, 10 Feb 1998 16:49:19 -0800
Lort Gob wrote:
>
> Hi y'all !!
>
> I was working on a new PC, my Evil DM decided to kill my old one....
> Well, actually it was my own fault, but I died by roleplaying well.
> Honorable dead....:)
>
> Well, on with the question:
>
> My new PC will be religious, probably Katholic. The campaign will
> be set in Seattle.
> - How many people still have a religion by then, and how big is
> the Katholic church compared to other religions ?
> - Is there still a Pope and does he still lives in the Vatican ?
> - What's the churches opinion about Cyberware ?
> - What's the churches opinion about Magic ?
> - What does a church look like in the 2050's ?

Most of these questions are answered in the Grimoire; also check out the
section in Awakenings under, I believe, the header of Pop Magic. Tir na
Nog - previously Ireland, bastion of European Catholicism - also has
some revealing information.

I'm inclined to chuck TnO out the window for many reasons, and the
manner they handled religion was one of them. Ah well..

There's still a Pope; she still wears a funny hat; she lives in the
Vatican.

The Chuch is actually rather open towards magic and cyberware --
cautious, but open, the way every conservative (.not. Conservative)
organization is like to have positioned itself. Churches, I imagine,
look very much the same, except the ones that look like VR computers.

Since any talk about religion is likely to devolve into flaming, I'd be
happier to talk at length in more private email.


-Matt

------------------------------------
With nomads I am numbered. -- E. MacColl
Message no. 21
From: Matb <mbreton@**.NETCOM.COM>
Subject: Re: Religion
Date: Tue, 10 Feb 1998 16:55:27 -0800
> Oh, and on another note, does anyone have some good sources of info about
> Katholicism in general? I'm the GM y'see, and to my shame I must admit that
> my knowledge of religion is very sparse indeed...

Do a web-search with the keywords "Vatican" or "Catholic"; you might
also want to try Georgetown or a few other seminaries. G-town, iirc,
does have articles available to read.

For literature.. er, for pulp novels, try Fr. Andrew Greeley, who
rights some interesting-but-barely-religious stuff.


-Matt

------------------------------------
With nomads I am numbered. -- E. MacColl

Teen Poets FAQ: http://pw1.netcom.com/~mbreton/poetry/poetfaq.htm
SRTCG Website: http://www.geocities.com/Area51/Station/2189/ccgtop.htm
Message no. 22
From: Matb <mbreton@**.NETCOM.COM>
Subject: Re: Religion
Date: Tue, 10 Feb 1998 17:02:39 -0800
Paul Yan wrote:
>
> The Crusades were one of the largest and
> bloodiest of wars over religion.
> Christian/Catholics (I'm sorry about grouping
> the two together, I'm not too sure about the
> difference between them. NO OFFENSE IS
> INTENDED!!!) fought and looted hundreds of
> towns, villages, and burgs for treasure under
> the name of God!

At the time (800s-1200s, iirc - and no, it wasn't four hundred years of
prolonged fighting; there were separate crusades at different points in
that general span)

Anyways, at the time, it was all one big happy (?) Church, the Church of
Rome. "Catholics" only really started calling themselves Catholics
after the Protestants, um, protested and broke off in the early 1500s.

I won;t go more into the Crusades. The thing to keep in mind was that
at that point in time, there was no separation between Church and state
(except, possibly, that the local heads of Church and the local heads of
state were sometimes - somtimes - different people). Although there
were 'religious' reasons injected -- ie, take back the Holy City from
the infidels -- it was very much a secular war fought for secular
reasons (the need to expand, the need to gain riches, the need to go
overseas and get slaughtered.)

They definitely weren't burgs. Crusaders headed south and over the
Mediterranean to northern Africa and the Middle East. Jerusalem,
Constantinople -- those are the places they fought and died in.

"Catholic" was used as a general term earlier in the lifespan of the
Church; it simply means "universal" -- ie, everybody's God, not yours or
mine.


-Matt

------------------------------------
With nomads I am numbered. -- E. MacColl

Teen Poets FAQ: http://pw1.netcom.com/~mbreton/poetry/poetfaq.htm
SRTCG Website: http://www.geocities.com/Area51/Station/2189/ccgtop.htm
Message no. 23
From: Mike Russell <MgkellyMP5@***.COM>
Subject: Re: Religion
Date: Tue, 10 Feb 1998 16:54:40 EST
In a message dated 98-02-10 08:47:21 EST, you write:

<< What's the churches opinion about Cyberware ?
- What's the churches opinion about Magic ?
- What does a church look like in the 2050's ?
>>

AFAIK, i don't recall anything about the Catholic church objecting to
Cyberware. if you have read "Find Your Own Truth" in the Secrets of Power
Trilogy, Sam Verner comes in contact with members of the New Jesuits, one of
whom is cybered. there was more on The New Jesuits in the Aztlan sourcebook.

the Catholic church's opinion on Magic was covered in the Grimoire. the Pope
stated that, like every other human talent, the way it was used depended on
whether or not Magic was evil. actually, not Magic being eveil, but the intent
of the caster. Conjuring, on the other hand, touched so many Theological
boundaries, that members of the Clergy are only allowed to Conjure with the
approval of their superiors and only then in special circumstances.

as far as the physical appearance of a church in SR, you'll just have to use
your imagination or leave it up to the GM to describe it.

i have a New Jesuit character who is more or less a Hermetic, though he casts
his spells as prayers and all foci are religious symbols. he runs because he
sees it as "fighting the Devil's work" and "because the Chruch needs money
to
do God's work". he gives the majority of his earnings to the Church and the
Mission run in the basement of it.

Mgkelly.
Message no. 24
From: Erik Jameson <erikj@****.COM>
Subject: Re: Religion
Date: Tue, 10 Feb 1998 18:38:27 -0500
>
>Anyways, at the time, it was all one big happy (?) Church, the Church of
>Rome. "Catholics" only really started calling themselves Catholics
>after the Protestants, um, protested and broke off in the early 1500s.
>
>I won;t go more into the Crusades. The thing to keep in mind was that
>at that point in time, there was no separation between Church and state
>(except, possibly, that the local heads of Church and the local heads of
>state were sometimes - somtimes - different people). Although there
>were 'religious' reasons injected -- ie, take back the Holy City from
>the infidels -- it was very much a secular war fought for secular
>reasons (the need to expand, the need to gain riches, the need to go
>overseas and get slaughtered.)
>

Not actually true. Everyone knows about the big Crusades to "regain" the
Holy Land. But not everyone knows about the Albighensian, or Cathar
Crusades. This involved a splinter group that, like many Christians at the
time, didn't recognize the Bishop of Rome as their leader. And these
fellows were in the south of France and parts of Spain.

A major part of what the Crusades were all about, from the papal point of
view, was the elimination of all possible rivals. The fact that all the
rivals, from the Cathars to the Byzantines to the Jews, all were very
wealthy, only made it easy to bribe the "temporal" leaders of Northern
Europe into going to war.

There was greater separation of Church and state than you imply. The kings
and barons could do what they wanted as long and the Church didn't say
otherwise. And often times they did what they wanted anyway. It was more
like having two rulers over one territory. The kings had armies. The pope
had the threat of eternal damnation. So it became a balancing act for both.

Anyway, enough of this...

Back on RN after several years because my Internet connection at work blows
chunks and I need something to entertain me,

Erik Jameson
Message no. 25
From: Justin Miland <Jkmiland@***.COM>
Subject: Re: Religion
Date: Tue, 10 Feb 1998 20:04:45 EST
At 19:59:57 EST erikj@****.COM (Erik Jameson) said:

>And often times they did what they wanted anyway. It was more
>like having two rulers over one territory. The kings had armies. The pope
>had the threat of eternal damnation. So it became a balancing act for both.

Actually, the Pope had his own armies as well. They were used to protect the
Pope from attacks by other, uncouth/heretic/pagan/what-have-you leaders in the
area. And now that the Sixth World is going full tilt, the Pope is well-armed
again (read Black Madonna by--I think--Carl Gasgione (sp?) for more info).
Message no. 26
From: NightLife <habenir@*****.UC.EDU>
Subject: Re: Religion
Date: Tue, 10 Feb 1998 21:06:32 -0500
>Well, on with the question:
>
>My new PC will be religious, probably Katholic. The campaign will
>be set in Seattle.
>- How many people still have a religion by then, and how big is
>the Katholic church compared to other religions ?

Most everyone. The "Catholic" is only slightly smaller than it is now.

>- Is there still a Pope and does he still lives in the Vatican ?

Yep.

>- What's the churches opinion about Cyberware ?

It's a tool. One that doesn't need to be encouraged. But it is accepted.

>- What's the churches opinion about Magic ?

Magic exists and it is not inherently evil. But summoning spirits touches on
some uncomfotable subjects.

>- What does a church look like in the 2050's ?

I'd have to say they still run around in their priestly attire at chruch,
but in everyday life they dress like you or me.

>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
Nightlife Inc.
<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<

"I am telling you nothing - merely asking you to remember that death come in
many shades. Some are harsh and infinitely painful to look upon; others can be
as peaceful and beautiful as the setting sun. I am an artist, and many colors
lie on upon my palette. Let me paint him a rainbow, and give you the means to
decide where it ends."

Erik from the book Phantom.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
Document Classified
<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<
Message no. 27
From: Mike Russell <MgkellyMP5@***.COM>
Subject: Re: Religion
Date: Tue, 10 Feb 1998 22:11:38 EST
In a message dated 98-02-10 20:58:52 EST, you write:

<< Actually, the Pope had his own armies as well >>

IIRC, the Pope/ The Vatican keeps the Swiss gaurds on retainer. The Swiss
Gaurds have been very famous, very competent mercenaries for ages. the get the
best training and equipment (think about how many Catholics tythe at least 10%
of their income. and with 1 billion Catholics in the world, plus the Churche's
own business ventures...well, the Church brings in a lot of cred). IIRC, The
Swiss Gaurds are roughly the equivalent of a Special Forces unit. and in SR,
The New Jesuits would be the Churches own soldiers and probably some of them
would be trained in Special Operations (think Navy SEALS, Army Green Berets,
Sioux Wildcats, et cetera, but even more devoted to their cause. it is God's
work after all and their own place in Heaven comes into it as well.)

you get the idea ;]

Mgkelly
Message no. 28
From: William Gallas <wgallas@*****.FR>
Subject: Re: Religion
Date: Wed, 11 Feb 1998 10:08:38 +0100
>The Crusades were one of the largest and
>bloodiest of wars over religion.
>Christian/Catholics (I'm sorry about grouping
>the two together, I'm not too sure about the
>difference between them. NO OFFENSE IS
>INTENDED!!!) fought and looted hundreds of
>towns, villages, and burgs for treasure under
>the name of God!

So here is common error.
First, christians are those how claim to follow the Christ but don't obey
to the Church. Catholics do follow the Church but they splited (for a long
time now...) in Roman Catholic Church and the orthodox Catholic Church.
Second, the first crusade was actually asked by Church as a holy war. The
reason was that islamists took over Jerusalem and restricted its access for
other religion than theirs. The crusade led by Church was mostly composed
by common people (very few knights) and ended with a massacre from the
islamists which killed almost everyone. Then, the other crusades were
organised by kings and/or corporations (like the venicians) but NOT by
Church! Some crusades were even condemned by Church! So please read a bit
more about history... :)
Third, looting isn't the fault of Church. They didn't for them to do this.
This is, alas, the consequence of war. When you advance with your troups,
you need to feed 'em.

>Also, Robert N. Charrette's
>trilogy, the one with Sam "Twist" Verner and all
>of the big names of SR, (I forgot the titles all
>of a sudden, GOMEN NASAI!!!). That main
>character was a devout Catholic. He never
>killed or murdured intentionally, he performed
>and used magic (He was a Dog Shaman!!!), and he
>was considered a very high-level, professional
>runner. This all proves how a runner can still
>be one with the Church.

If the runners tries to not kill (like Sam Verner, the name you're
searching), that's fine with me.
But PLEASE don't consider mafia dons and the like to be catholic because to
go from time to time at church. they're NOT. You can play someone who likes
to think he's catholic but playing someone who is catholic is something else.
I think it's a bit difficult to really know about catholicism when you only
listen to anti-catholic media (like the german or french ones).

Like someone else said, I think it could offense someone to play a catholic
in a game which isn't catholic. This shows you don't know what religion is.
Plus, I think other religions fit well in SR. I like to think about SR
world as an extreme view of the real world. I think sects would fit very
well in the background. With awakening, most people must have gone to some
spiritual groups (a bit like today). In such a context, history shows that
it creates many sects. Such sects give some power and some money to the
guru, which are the prime motivations in today's world and even more in SR
world. IMO, Church isn't more powerful than it was or is today but there
are many other religious groups using faith of people for their own use.


Cobra.

E-mail adress : wgallas@*****.fr
Quote : "Never trust an elf"
Message no. 29
From: Gurth <gurth@******.NL>
Subject: Re: Religion
Date: Wed, 11 Feb 1998 11:48:02 +0100
William Gallas said on 10:08/11 Feb 98...

> Third, looting isn't the fault of Church. They didn't for them to do this.
> This is, alas, the consequence of war. When you advance with your troups,
> you need to feed 'em.

Of course, the fact that all sins committed on the Crusades had been
forgiven in advance helped too...

--
Gurth@******.nl - http://www.xs4all.nl/~gurth/index.html - UIN5044116
I'll stop trying to make a difference.
-> NERPS Project Leader & Unofficial Shadowrun Guru <-
-> The Plastic Warriors Page: http://www.xs4all.nl/~gurth/plastic.html <-
-> The New Character Mortuary: http://www.electricferret.com/mortuary/ <-

-----BEGIN GEEK CODE BLOCK-----
Version 3.1:
GAT/! d-(dpu) s:- !a>? C+(++)@ U P L E? W(++) N o? K- w+ O V? PS+ PE
Y PGP- t(+) 5++ X++ R+++>$ tv+(++) b++@ DI? D+ G(++) e h! !r(---) y?
------END GEEK CODE BLOCK------
Message no. 30
From: Gurth <gurth@******.NL>
Subject: Re: Religion
Date: Wed, 11 Feb 1998 11:48:01 +0100
Lort Gob said on 17:55/10 Feb 98...

> 'Cause it's Kathloliek in Holland.....

In the rest of the Netherlands it's spelled without that first L...

--
Gurth@******.nl - http://www.xs4all.nl/~gurth/index.html - UIN5044116
I'll stop trying to make a difference.
-> NERPS Project Leader & Unofficial Shadowrun Guru <-
-> The Plastic Warriors Page: http://www.xs4all.nl/~gurth/plastic.html <-
-> The New Character Mortuary: http://www.electricferret.com/mortuary/ <-

-----BEGIN GEEK CODE BLOCK-----
Version 3.1:
GAT/! d-(dpu) s:- !a>? C+(++)@ U P L E? W(++) N o? K- w+ O V? PS+ PE
Y PGP- t(+) 5++ X++ R+++>$ tv+(++) b++@ DI? D+ G(++) e h! !r(---) y?
------END GEEK CODE BLOCK------
Message no. 31
From: Gurth <gurth@******.NL>
Subject: Re: Religion
Date: Wed, 11 Feb 1998 11:48:01 +0100
David Buehrer said on 9:40/10 Feb 98...

> / Oh, and on another note, does anyone have some good sources of info about
> / Katholicism in general? I'm the GM y'see, and to my shame I must admit that
> / my knowledge of religion is very sparse indeed...
>
> On the web start at http://www.vatican.va
>
> Other than that there's your local public library :)

Or, since Jod lives in the Netherlands, he can just turn his TV to
Nederland 1 on a random Sunday morning...

> BTW, why are you spelling it with a "K"?

My guess is because it's spelled "Katholiek" in Dutch, and it's not a word
you regularly use in high school English class?

--
Gurth@******.nl - http://www.xs4all.nl/~gurth/index.html - UIN5044116
I'll stop trying to make a difference.
-> NERPS Project Leader & Unofficial Shadowrun Guru <-
-> The Plastic Warriors Page: http://www.xs4all.nl/~gurth/plastic.html <-
-> The New Character Mortuary: http://www.electricferret.com/mortuary/ <-

-----BEGIN GEEK CODE BLOCK-----
Version 3.1:
GAT/! d-(dpu) s:- !a>? C+(++)@ U P L E? W(++) N o? K- w+ O V? PS+ PE
Y PGP- t(+) 5++ X++ R+++>$ tv+(++) b++@ DI? D+ G(++) e h! !r(---) y?
------END GEEK CODE BLOCK------
Message no. 32
From: "J. Keith Henry" <Ereskanti@***.COM>
Subject: Re: Religion
Date: Wed, 11 Feb 1998 08:18:58 EST
In a message dated 98-02-10 08:47:15 EST, teunissen@***.NL writes:

> My new PC will be religious, probably Katholic. The campaign will
> be set in Seattle.

Katholic? What's the "K" for, and should I be afraid?

> - How many people still have a religion by then, and how big is
> the Katholic church compared to other religions ?

It is still -HUGE- if not illegal in a couple of countries (Ireland,
Aztlan)...okay, Ireland is a strange story....

> - Is there still a Pope and does he still lives in the Vatican ?

Yes and Yes and btw, the Vatican is a nuclear power...

> - What's the churches opinion about Cyberware ?

Depends, which game version of the church do you want? AFAIK, cyberware isn't
frowned upon, but don't quote me on that.

> - What's the churches opinion about Magic ?

Magic is bad, or at least was, I think there is a 'new' pope in the 2050's for
some reason, and he's a bit more open minded about it. However, the doctrine
for such is pretty wild.

> - What does a church look like in the 2050's ?

Physically you mean? I'd say probably just like they always did...
-K
Message no. 33
From: Lort Gob <teunissen@***.NL>
Subject: Re: Religion
Date: Wed, 11 Feb 1998 13:44:53 +0100
>> 'Cause it's Kathloliek in Holland.....
>
>In the rest of the Netherlands it's spelled without that first L...

I'm just livin in a strange city.
Message no. 34
From: Lort Gob <teunissen@***.NL>
Subject: Re: Religion
Date: Wed, 11 Feb 1998 13:44:54 +0100
>> / Oh, and on another note, does anyone have some good sources of info about
>> / Katholicism in general? I'm the GM y'see, and to my shame I must admit
that
>> / my knowledge of religion is very sparse indeed...
>>
>> On the web start at http://www.vatican.va
>>
>> Other than that there's your local public library :)
>
>Or, since Jod lives in the Netherlands, he can just turn his TV to
>Nederland 1 on a random Sunday morning...

Yeah, mention that....And I thought my day was bad enough......

Lort Gob
teunissen@***.nl
UIN: 4812743
Message no. 35
From: s c rose <scrose@****.COM>
Subject: Re: Religion
Date: Wed, 11 Feb 1998 09:27:52 -0600
William Gallas wrote:
>
>
> >Also, Robert N. Charrette's
> >trilogy, the one with Sam "Twist" Verner and all
> >of the big names of SR, (I forgot the titles all
> >of a sudden, GOMEN NASAI!!!). That main
> >character was a devout Catholic. He never
> >killed or murdured intentionally, he performed
> >and used magic (He was a Dog Shaman!!!), and he
> >was considered a very high-level, professional
> >runner. This all proves how a runner can still
> >be one with the Church.

Those Novels are also great history into the shadow run universe.
They are also the first SR novels ever printed
The Trilogy is called the secrets of power and the books are
1) Never Deal with with a Dragon
2) Choose your enemies Carefully
3) Find your own truth

Sam has to come to terms with his magic religion and life in the
shawdows makes intersting RP IMO. I'm in the process of doing this in a
game I play right now. But it's not magic the PC I'm playing is not a
part of the shadows and not really at home in them yet. He has spent all
is life being protecting people from shawdowrunners and now he has
become one, Again a wonderful chance for RP starting a new characters
should be fun and exciting not a chore. If it becomes a chore prehaps a
new character concept should be considered.


--

Never Appeal to a man's "better nature" he may not have one.
Invoking his self-interest gives you more leverage.
Message no. 36
From: Da Twink Daddy <twinkie@*******.DMSC.K12.AR.US>
Subject: Fw: Religion
Date: Wed, 11 Feb 1998 10:07:45 -0600
-----Original Message-----
From: Da Twink Daddy <twinkie@*******.dmsc.k12.ar.us>


>
>-----Original Message-----
>From: Damon Harper <nomad74@*******.COM>
>
>
>>>Oh, and on another note, does anyone have some good sources of info
>>about
>>>Katholicism in general? I'm the GM y'see, and to my shame I must admit
>>that
>>>my knowledge of religion is very sparse indeed...
>>>
>>>Jod
>>
>> Yeah, read with these other ppl are post: It's spelled Catholic,
>>with a "C", not a "K".
>
>
>Don't jump on him, different languages spell it differently.
>
>> Now, I'll give you a sample of what it's like to attend mass:
>> Sit.
>> Kneel.
>> Stand.
>> Kneel.
>
>
>Pray, Cross your self.
>
>> Sit.
>> Stand.
>
>
>Stand around saying, "Peace be with you." or, "And also with
you"" for
about
>5 mins.
>> Kneel.
>> Sit.
>
>
>Recite what the priest says, cross yourself.
>
>> Kneel.
>> Stand.
>
>
>Cross yourself.
>
>> Repeat for about an hour or so.
>
>
>Pray a couple more times and recite a little more.
>
>> Play a CD of choire singing and you've just attended mass.
>> :)
>
>
>Remember if you are a good Catholic, you don't polutue your body by eating
>for 1 hr. before mass and then right as soon as you get out you go have a
>healty beakfast or whatever of doughnuts, strong coffee, and smoke a couple
>of cigarettes :).
>
>Then, if you are Catholic girl/boy (teenager.) You go get laid.
>
>I have a little experience in this as: I live in the "Bible belt" in the
US.
>My best friend and his fiance and (I assume) thier new child are Catholic
>and I'm Babtist. He's 18 She's 15 or 16, I'm 17. I've also attended mass
and
>hove many other cristian friends both protestant (Non-Catholic) and
>Catholic.
>
>Da Twink Daddy ( twinkie@*******.dmsc.k12.ar.us gilmeth@*********.com
>UIN:514984)
>----------
>"I need to discuss BUY-BACK PROVISIONS with at least six studio
>SLEAZEBALLS!!" --Zippy the Pinhead
>---------------
>http://170.211.45.132/~twinkie/
>http://www.geocities.com/SiliconValley/Pines/3759/
>
Message no. 37
From: The Bookworm <Thomas.M.Price@*******.EDU>
Subject: Re: Religion
Date: Wed, 11 Feb 1998 12:30:11 -0600
On Tue, 10 Feb 1998, Brett Borger wrote:

> > >>P.S. A note, the Vatican in SR is a NUCLEAR power ...
> > >Where did you ever see it ?
> > Black Madonna novel, dismiss this info as you wish.
> If there was ever a novel that I didn't want to be canon...(plot wise
> that is).

Secounded! badly done IE conspiracy (IMO), Ancient Magic orders, the New
Jesuits and a Vatican with nuclear tipped ICBMs. *Sigh* though the last
DOES give a new twist to the fire and brimstone condemnations.:)
Message no. 38
From: The Bookworm <Thomas.M.Price@*******.EDU>
Subject: Re: Religion
Date: Wed, 11 Feb 1998 12:44:01 -0600
On Tue, 10 Feb 1998, Mike Russell wrote:
> << Actually, the Pope had his own armies as well >>
> IIRC, the Pope/ The Vatican keeps the Swiss gaurds on retainer. The Swiss
> Gaurds have been very famous, very competent mercenaries for ages. the get the
> best training and equipment (think about how many Catholics tythe at least 10%
> of their income. and with 1 billion Catholics in the world, plus the Churche's
> own business ventures...well, the Church brings in a lot of cred). IIRC, The
> Swiss Gaurds are roughly the equivalent of a Special Forces unit. and in SR,
> The New Jesuits would be the Churches own soldiers and probably some of them
> would be trained in Special Operations (think Navy SEALS, Army Green Berets,
> Sioux Wildcats, et cetera, but even more devoted to their cause. it is God's
> work after all and their own place in Heaven comes into it as well.)

IIRC The Swiss mercenary companies were some of the most feared in Europe
for a good long while. In one of the major treaties ending one of the
wars (Which one excapes me at the moment) the Swiss had to agree not to
deploy troops out of their own borders. The only execption was for the
Popes guard. And im sure they are very good at what they do. 1) I would
think that it is a very prestigous unit to join. 2)You have some very
important people to guard (think Secret Service) 3) Think of all the
wonderfull art treasures, secrets ect that they have hiding in the
Vatican, someones got to keep the theives out. 4) hmmm anyone know what
the current extremist Islamic terrorist views are on the Catholic Church?

Just some ramblings that i hope might help get peoples creative juices
flowing...

Thomas Price
aka The Bookworm
thomas.m.price@*******.edu
tmprice@***********.com
Message no. 39
From: John Penta <johndevil@****.COM>
Subject: Re: Religion
Date: Tue, 10 Feb 1998 22:21:47 -0500
On 2/10/98, J.G. du Chatinier wrote:
On Tue, 10 Feb 1998 16:47:56 +0100 "J. G. du Chatinier"
<chatin@*******.NL> writes:
>At 14:45 10/02/1998 +0100, you wrote:
>>Hi y'all !!
>>
>>I was working on a new PC, my Evil DM decided to kill my old one....
>>Well, actually it was my own fault, but I died by roleplaying well.
>>Honorable dead....:)
>**Gobbo? This was most probably one of the worst puns I've _ever_
>seen... ;)
>
>Oh, and on another note, does anyone have some good sources of info
>about
>Katholicism in general? I'm the GM y'see, and to my shame I must admit
>that
>my knowledge of religion is very sparse indeed...
hmm...me believes the Vatican web site might help...*checks*, uh,
ok...forget that. they don't even have prayers on there, let alone the
Catechism(sp? only time I've seen it in was a form letter I hadta write
for confirmation(don't ask, please.:))a few days ago.)....try a few
places on AOL...dunno really...or, ask those of us who've had to endure
Catholic religious education, or are enduring it(THANK GOD, only two more
MONTHS!)like me.:)

JCP
reply-to:johndevil@****.com

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Message no. 40
From: John Penta <johndevil@****.COM>
Subject: Re: Fw: Religion
Date: Wed, 11 Feb 1998 19:07:20 -0500
On Wed, 11 Feb 1998 10:07:45 -0600 Da Twink Daddy
<twinkie@*******.DMSC.K12.AR.US> writes:
>-----Original Message-----
>From: Da Twink Daddy <twinkie@*******.dmsc.k12.ar.us>
>
>
>>
>>-----Original Message-----
>>From: Damon Harper <nomad74@*******.COM>
>>
>>
>>>>Oh, and on another note, does anyone have some good sources of info
>>>about
>>>>Katholicism in general? I'm the GM y'see, and to my shame I must
>admit
>>>that
>>>>my knowledge of religion is very sparse indeed...
>>>>
>>>>Jod
>>>
>>> Yeah, read with these other ppl are post: It's spelled Catholic,
>>>with a "C", not a "K".
>>
>>
>>Don't jump on him, different languages spell it differently.
>>
>>> Now, I'll give you a sample of what it's like to attend mass:
>>> Sit.
>>> Kneel.
>>> Stand.
>>> Kneel.
>>
>>
>>Pray, Cross your self.
>>
>>> Sit.
>>> Stand.
>>
>>
>>Stand around saying, "Peace be with you." or, "And also with
you""
>for
>about
>>5 mins.
>>> Kneel.
>>> Sit.
>>
>>
>>Recite what the priest says, cross yourself.
>>
>>> Kneel.
>>> Stand.
>>
>>
>>Cross yourself.
>>
>>> Repeat for about an hour or so.
>>
>>
>>Pray a couple more times and recite a little more.
>>
>>> Play a CD of choire singing and you've just attended mass.
>>> :)
>>
>>
>>Remember if you are a good Catholic, you don't polutue your body by
>eating
>>for 1 hr. before mass and then right as soon as you get out you go
>have a
>>healty beakfast or whatever of doughnuts, strong coffee, and smoke a
>couple
>>of cigarettes :).
>>
>>Then, if you are Catholic girl/boy (teenager.) You go get laid.
*LAUGH*Actually, I think the don't eat or drink provision is only if yer
going to recieve communion, and it's 2 hours(learned it in 2nd
grade.forgot mostly).....Though, in my experience, it's kinda like
that....*that* is definitely only in the Bible Belt...here, if yer not at
St. Patrick's or something on a major holy day with a bishop or higher
celebrating the Mass...then, it's usually less formal, quicker, and
looser. there's still basic forms though.:) Dunno 'bout that LAST bit
about getting laid(at the age, just...RPGer in truth...no chance of
getting dates.:))

John,
the 14-year-old suffering through the final 2 months till
Confirmation...erg.

_____________________________________________________________________
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Message no. 41
From: John Penta <johndevil@****.COM>
Subject: Re: Religion
Date: Wed, 11 Feb 1998 19:17:06 -0500
On Wed, 11 Feb 1998 12:44:01 -0600 The Bookworm
<Thomas.M.Price@*******.EDU> writes:
>On Tue, 10 Feb 1998, Mike Russell wrote:
>> << Actually, the Pope had his own armies as well >>
>> IIRC, the Pope/ The Vatican keeps the Swiss gaurds on retainer. The
>Swiss
>> Gaurds have been very famous, very competent mercenaries for ages.
>the get the
>> best training and equipment (think about how many Catholics tythe at
>least 10%
>> of their income. and with 1 billion Catholics in the world, plus the
>Churche's
>> own business ventures...well, the Church brings in a lot of cred).
>IIRC, The
>> Swiss Gaurds are roughly the equivalent of a Special Forces unit.
>and in SR,
>> The New Jesuits would be the Churches own soldiers and probably some
>of them
>> would be trained in Special Operations (think Navy SEALS, Army Green
>Berets,
>> Sioux Wildcats, et cetera, but even more devoted to their cause. it
>is God's
>> work after all and their own place in Heaven comes into it as well.)
>
>IIRC The Swiss mercenary companies were some of the most feared in
>Europe
>for a good long while. In one of the major treaties ending one of the
>wars (Which one excapes me at the moment) the Swiss had to agree not
>to
>deploy troops out of their own borders. The only execption was for
>the
>Popes guard. And im sure they are very good at what they do. 1) I
>would
>think that it is a very prestigous unit to join. 2)You have some very
>important people to guard (think Secret Service) 3) Think of all the
>wonderfull art treasures, secrets ect that they have hiding in the
>Vatican, someones got to keep the theives out. 4) hmmm anyone know
>what
>the current extremist Islamic terrorist views are on the Catholic
>Church?
>
>Just some ramblings that i hope might help get peoples creative juices
>flowing...
The treaty was the Congress of Vienna in 1815. on yer questions...the
quals, as far as I know...only one...Swiss citizen...I believe you also
have to be catholic, but...could be wrong. And, BTW...me Catholic...every
mass I've gone to...there is a general note by the priest before they
take collection as to what exactly the week's collections are going to.
And, BTW...10% of income? nah. too much. I've never seen anybody give
more than $1 to the collection basket...although, people in Central NJ
*are* tightwads, so...
rambling over.

JCP

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Message no. 42
From: Matb <mbreton@**.NETCOM.COM>
Subject: Re: Fw: Religion
Date: Thu, 12 Feb 1998 19:18:06 -0800
> >>> Now, I'll give you a sample of what it's like to attend mass:

<deliberately offended>

Well, that was a successfully bigoted opinion...

</offended>


-Matt

------------------------------------
With nomads I am numbered. -- E. MacColl
SRTCG Website: http://www.geocities.com/Area51/Station/2189/ccgtop.htm
Message no. 43
From: Wordman <wordman@*******.COM>
Subject: Re: Religion
Date: Fri, 13 Feb 1998 02:12:18 -0500
Gurth said:
>William Gallas said on 10:08/11 Feb 98...
>> Third, looting isn't the fault of Church. They didn't for them to do this.
>> This is, alas, the consequence of war. When you advance with your troups,
>> you need to feed 'em.

> Of course, the fact that all sins committed on the Crusades had been
> forgiven in advance helped too...

"Christ died for our sins. Dare we make his martyrdom meaningless by not
committing them?"
-- Jules Feiffer
Message no. 44
From: Drekhead <drekhead@***.NET>
Subject: Re: Fw: Religion
Date: Fri, 13 Feb 1998 18:26:42 -0500
On 12 Feb 98 at 19:18, Matb wrote:

> > >>> Now, I'll give you a sample of what it's like to attend mass:
>
> <deliberately offended>
>
> Well, that was a successfully bigoted opinion...
>
> </offended>

Which is exactly why religion should not be discussed on this list,
or any public forum for that matter.

So let's drop this thread now please, or take it to private mail.

--

===DREKHEAD==================================drekhead@***.net====
http://www.geocities.com/TimesSquare/Alley/6990/index.html
=================================================================
Actual Newspaper Headline #38
New Study of Obesity Looks for Larger Test Group

Check out my webpage for the others!
-----------------------------------------------------------------
Message no. 45
From: "Leszek Karlik, aka Mike" <trrkt@*****.ONET.PL>
Subject: Re: Religion
Date: Sun, 15 Feb 1998 14:01:12 +0000
On 11 Feb 98, The Bookworm disseminated foul capitalist propaganda by
writing:

<snip>
> > > Black Madonna novel, dismiss this info as you wish.
> > If there was ever a novel that I didn't want to be canon...(plot wise
> > that is).
>
> Secounded! badly done IE conspiracy (IMO), Ancient Magic orders,
> the New Jesuits and a Vatican with nuclear tipped ICBMs. *Sigh*
> though the last DOES give a new twist to the fire and brimstone
> condemnations.:)

Yeah. Talk about *effective* excommunications... (BTW: Where do they
keep them? They have a sub? ;P)


Leszek Karlik, aka Mike - trrkt@*****.onet.pl; http://www.wlkp.top.pl/~bear/mike;
Amber fan and Star Wars junkie; UIN 6947998; WTF TKD; FIAWOL; YMMV; IMAO; SNAFU; TANJ
Geek Code v3.1 GL/O d- s+: a19 C+++ W-(++) N+++ K? w(---) O@ M- PS+(+++) PE Y+
PGP- !t--- 5+(-) X- R*+++>$ tv-- b++++ D+ G-- e h--*! !r-- !y-*
Forget the notes and play the music.
Message no. 46
From: Fade <runefo@***.UIO.NO>
Subject: Re: Religion
Date: Sun, 15 Feb 1998 14:58:29 +0000
> > > > Black Madonna novel, dismiss this info as you wish.
> > > If there was ever a novel that I didn't want to be canon...(plot wise
> > > that is).
> >
> > Secounded! badly done IE conspiracy (IMO), Ancient Magic orders,
> > the New Jesuits and a Vatican with nuclear tipped ICBMs. *Sigh*
> > though the last DOES give a new twist to the fire and brimstone
> > condemnations.:)
>
> Yeah. Talk about *effective* excommunications... (BTW: Where do they
> keep them? They have a sub? ;P)

Weeeell... the vatican is a few blocks in size, and landlocked at
that.. and up to its eyeballs in ancient ruins that they would be
fairly loth to destroy for a missile silo. How they could become a
nuclear power is far beyond me, and where they should keep the
damnthings also. (Ok, a nuke isn't big, but ICBM's are.). For a
'nation' that today doesn't even have a single ATGM or piece of
artillery, and whose power is purely political (religious) in
nature, it sounds odd to have nuclear ICBM's... in fact, fairly
counterproductive.

(In other words, just another 'Me too!'.).

BTW today the SDI is on the verge of being restarted, as the threat
of nuclear weapons from the south/east is increasing.* If it
continues, you need many missiles, not just a few, to be an
effective threat against an european/american/eastern nation ...or
one under Ares protection. (Killer satelites).

*(Effective nuclear defence, indeed, civilian training to withstand
nuclear attack, was abolished to keep MAD as a balance. Neither the
east nor the west could afford anyone, themselves included, to think
they could win, or even just survive, such a war. Now that is
changing, because of nuclear proliferation - small states can, and
probably will, use nuclear weapons as a threat within the foreseeable
future, and it is now very counterproductive not to have defences
against such weapons.)

--
Fade

And the Prince of Lies said:
"To reign is worth ambition, though in Hell:
Better to reign in hell than to serve in heaven."
-John Milton, Paradise Lost
Message no. 47
From: The Bookworm <Thomas.M.Price@*******.EDU>
Subject: Re: Religion
Date: Mon, 16 Feb 1998 11:48:59 -0600
On Sun, 15 Feb 1998, Leszek Karlik, aka Mike wrote:

> > Secounded! badly done IE conspiracy (IMO), Ancient Magic orders,
> > the New Jesuits and a Vatican with nuclear tipped ICBMs. *Sigh*
> > though the last DOES give a new twist to the fire and brimstone
> > condemnations.:)
> Yeah. Talk about *effective* excommunications... (BTW: Where do they
> keep them? They have a sub? ;P)

Hmmm where to hide an ICBM? Well lets look at the kind of property that
the Vatican owns.

1) the Vatican City itself. Fairly old, in the middle of a populated
area, tourist destination. Naw to hard to hide the construction (though
they _do_ have those catacomes)

2) Monistaries/Convents all over the world. Now this could have some
posabilities if it isnt a big famious tourist destination. Many
monistaries where built as defendable self contained comunities whice
means security and prebuilt quarters for the gaurds/techs. Great camaflage
("Naw that set of buildings up in the hills is just the old Jesuit
monistary, Nothing but a bunch of old monks fasting and praying").
Building the missle silos would still be the problem but you could hide
them under a courtyard or mabey under a foot or two of soil in the
gardens. hmmmm anyone know it Shadowrun has a "Dig" spell?

3) Churches/Cathedrals/Schools Dont think so, see #1

4) Well whoes to say they didnt quitely buy a few small islands somewhere
in the Pacific or Carribiean. Call it a retreat for spiritual restoration
and meditation. Heck you could even really use part of the island for
that anyway. I doubt youll turn the entire island into a missle feild.
Gives you a reason to ship construction material to the site, you can
fudge the numbers so people dont realize your shipping more food/suplies
to the island than is needed by the retreat. ("where are you going
brother Thomas?" "Im going off to meditate and fast for 24 hours.... What
else am i going to do in the missle controll room? They wont let us play
Doom!" :))

Ya know i think i actualy came up with somehting with that last idea.

Thomas Price
aka The Bookworm
thomas.m.price@*******.edu
tmprice@***********.com
Message no. 48
From: Gurth <gurth@******.NL>
Subject: Re: Religion
Date: Tue, 17 Feb 1998 11:29:17 +0100
The Bookworm said on 11:48/16 Feb 98...

> > Yeah. Talk about *effective* excommunications... (BTW: Where do they
> > keep them? They have a sub? ;P)
>
> Hmmm where to hide an ICBM? Well lets look at the kind of property that
> the Vatican owns.

Who says you need an ICBM to have a nuke? There are nuclear weapons small
enough to put into a suitcase. Sure, you can't really launch them at
someone, but you could do the terrorist thing and leave a bomb-suitcase in
an important place, then get away and detonate it.

Alternatively, get yourself a load of Tomahawk or similar cruise missiles.
They're small enough so you can build the launcher onto a truck or ship,
but still have ranges of 2000+ km. The payload isn't as great as that of
an ICBM, but with an accurately-delivered nuclear weapon, who needs that
anyway?

--
Gurth@******.nl - http://www.xs4all.nl/~gurth/index.html - UIN5044116
That's just fine.
-> NERPS Project Leader & Unofficial Shadowrun Guru <-
-> The Plastic Warriors Page: http://www.xs4all.nl/~gurth/plastic.html <-
-> The New Character Mortuary: http://www.electricferret.com/mortuary/ <-

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Message no. 49
From: Matb <mbreton@**.NETCOM.COM>
Subject: Re: Religion
Date: Tue, 17 Feb 1998 05:42:19 -0800
Gurth wrote:

> > Hmmm where to hide an ICBM? Well lets look at the kind of property that
> > the Vatican owns.

> Who says you need an ICBM to have a nuke? There are nuclear weapons small
> enough to put into a suitcase. Sure, you can't really launch them at
> someone, but you could do the terrorist thing and leave a bomb-suitcase in
> an important place, then get away and detonate it.

And then of course, you can always go up. If the Shadowrun Vatican is
really that much of a super-power, it might just have an Italian
aerospace firm or two in its pocket, or controlling interest in an
overseas company. "Ninety minutes or less before a bird comes over the
horizon... Cardinal."

And, more in line with the present-day Church, there's simply political
pressure on the country of their choice to do the work for em. Not that
I can think of a good reason for the Church to nuke someone. Or anyone
to nuke anyone else, but maybe that's just me.

Historical SR question: Was the Vatican supposed to have nukes at the
time of the Mid-East Meltdown?


-Matt

------------------------------------
With nomads I am numbered. -- E. MacColl
Message no. 50
From: Drekhead <drekhead@***.NET>
Subject: Re: Religion
Date: Tue, 17 Feb 1998 08:48:04 -0500
On 17 Feb 98 at 11:29, Gurth wrote:

> Who says you need an ICBM to have a nuke? There are nuclear weapons
> small enough to put into a suitcase. Sure, you can't really launch
> them at someone, but you could do the terrorist thing and leave a
> bomb-suitcase in an important place, then get away and detonate it.

Consider this; there are Catholic churches all over the world.
Perfect place to store a nuke. That would give the church the
capacity to damage and/or level every major city in the world.
Scary thought.

--

===DREKHEAD==================================drekhead@***.net====
http://www.geocities.com/TimesSquare/Alley/6990/index.html
=================================================================
It's time's like this I wish I were a psycopath.
-Dilbert

-----------------------------------------------------------------
Message no. 51
From: The Bookworm <Thomas.M.Price@*******.EDU>
Subject: Re: Religion
Date: Tue, 17 Feb 1998 13:13:39 -0600
On Tue, 17 Feb 1998, Gurth wrote:

> The Bookworm said on 11:48/16 Feb 98...
> > Hmmm where to hide an ICBM? Well lets look at the kind of property that
> > the Vatican owns.
> Who says you need an ICBM to have a nuke?

Not me! But (you knew there was a but didnt you:)) In the novel they talk
about the incoming ICBM from the vatican. Therefore i was trying to
figure out where the Vatican had hidden them. Your other ideas are very
workable and much easier to hide:)

Thomas Price
aka The Bookworm
thomas.m.price@*******.edu
tmprice@***********.com
Message no. 52
From: Brett Borger <bxb121@***.EDU>
Subject: Re: Religion
Date: Tue, 17 Feb 1998 14:58:46 EST
> truck or ship, but still have ranges of 2000+ km. The payload isn't
> as great as that of an ICBM, but with an accurately-delivered
> nuclear weapon, who needs that anyway?

We have a saying in the states: "Close only counts in horseshoes,
hand grenades, and thermo-nuclear weaponry."

Who needs that nuclear delivery to be dreadfully accurate? :)

-=SwiftOne=-
Message no. 53
From: Robert Watkins <robert.watkins@******.COM>
Subject: Re: Religion
Date: Wed, 18 Feb 1998 09:06:37 +1000
Brett Borger writes:
>> truck or ship, but still have ranges of 2000+ km. The payload isn't
>> as great as that of an ICBM, but with an accurately-delivered
>> nuclear weapon, who needs that anyway?
>
>We have a saying in the states: "Close only counts in horseshoes,
>hand grenades, and thermo-nuclear weaponry."
>
>Who needs that nuclear delivery to be dreadfully accurate? :)


Counterforce specialists... After all, missile silos were designed to be
operative after a nuclear explosion that was, what, about 500 meters away?

Oh, and the US spent literally billions on GPS satellites mainly so that
they could get really accurate shots from their missile subs.

Ob SR: Isn't there meant to be some confusion about wether a nuke launched
in anger would even work, in SR, due to magic?

--
.sig deleted to conserve electrons. robert.watkins@******.com
Message no. 54
From: Matthew Dezern <chiphead@****.COM>
Subject: Re: Religion
Date: Tue, 17 Feb 1998 20:32:08 -0500
Brett Borger wrote:

> > truck or ship, but still have ranges of 2000+ km. The payload isn't
> > as great as that of an ICBM, but with an accurately-delivered
> > nuclear weapon, who needs that anyway?
>
> We have a saying in the states: "Close only counts in horseshoes,
> hand grenades, and thermo-nuclear weaponry."
>
> Who needs that nuclear delivery to be dreadfully accurate? :)
>
> -=SwiftOne=-

Ok, good point.


[:]chiPheaD[:]
Message no. 55
From: Gurth <gurth@******.NL>
Subject: Re: Religion
Date: Wed, 18 Feb 1998 10:22:12 +0100
Brett Borger said on 14:58/17 Feb 98...

> Who needs that nuclear delivery to be dreadfully accurate? :)

Someone who doesn't have a place to store an ICBM tipped with a
100 megaton nuclear weapon, but does have a 10 kiloton weapon and wants
to destroy the same things with it as the 100 MT nuke?

--
Gurth@******.nl - http://www.xs4all.nl/~gurth/index.html - UIN5044116
That's just fine.
-> NERPS Project Leader & Unofficial Shadowrun Guru <-
-> The Plastic Warriors Page: http://www.xs4all.nl/~gurth/plastic.html <-
-> The New Character Mortuary: http://www.electricferret.com/mortuary/ <-

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Message no. 56
From: James Lindsay <jlindsay@******.CA>
Subject: Re: Religion
Date: Wed, 18 Feb 1998 15:26:18 GMT
On Wed, 18 Feb 1998 09:06:37 +1000, Robert Watkins wrote:

> Brett Borger writes:
> >> truck or ship, but still have ranges of 2000+ km. The payload isn't
> >> as great as that of an ICBM, but with an accurately-delivered
> >> nuclear weapon, who needs that anyway?
> >
> >We have a saying in the states: "Close only counts in horseshoes,
> >hand grenades, and thermo-nuclear weaponry."
> >
> >Who needs that nuclear delivery to be dreadfully accurate? :)
>
> Counterforce specialists... After all, missile silos were designed to be
> operative after a nuclear explosion that was, what, about 500 meters away?
>
> Oh, and the US spent literally billions on GPS satellites mainly so that
> they could get really accurate shots from their missile subs.

And that is why China has the biggest nukes on the planet. It seems that
they still haven't been able to solve their problems dealing with pin-point
accuracy. Hence, they have really BIG ASS nukes.

As for GPS, some of the newest American AGM missile designs use it instead
of laser, radar, or image recognition. Apparently they *can* read a
newspaper from orbit :)



James W. Lindsay Vancouver, British Columbia
"http://www.prosperoimaging.com/ground_zero";
ICQ: 7521644 (Sharkey)

Mano au mano, the "Professor"
would kick MacGyver's ass.
Message no. 57
From: John Penta <johndevil@****.COM>
Subject: Re: Religion
Date: Tue, 17 Feb 1998 16:53:50 -0500
<snipping something from somebody(sorry, mailer crashed)about "Mid-East
Meltdown">
Um, question. I've heard this at least 20 times lately...WTF is the
"Mid-East Meltdown"? I know Libya got nuked by Israel, but extrapolation
puts it that those were small nukes. Pray tell...WHAT Mid-East Meltdown?

JCP

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