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Message no. 1
From: David Cordy david.cordy@****.com
Subject: Religion and cyber
Date: Mon, 25 Oct 1999 10:20:25 -0700
Disclaimer: This is not meant to start any sort of religious debate or
flame war.

In MitS the view of magic is discussed in regards to a number of religious
beliefs. From the Pope's edict on magic not being evil and the Jewish
traditions limitations on Magic use, to Hindu and Taoist practices in
regards to magic.
My question is: How do the various religious organizations view cyberware?
Does a Hassidic (sp?) Jew have to stop using his cyber eyes for the Sabbath?
Do Buddhists feel that cyber removes one from the Path, and away from
enlightenment? I am also curious if there is any thing canon on this.
Thanks for your time.

DavidC.
Message no. 2
From: lomion lomion@*********.or
Subject: Religion and cyber
Date: Mon, 25 Oct 1999 10:32:54 -0700
At 10:20 AM 10/25/99 -0700, you wrote:
>Disclaimer: This is not meant to start any sort of religious debate or
>flame war.
>
>In MitS the view of magic is discussed in regards to a number of religious
>beliefs. From the Pope's edict on magic not being evil and the Jewish
>traditions limitations on Magic use, to Hindu and Taoist practices in
>regards to magic.
>My question is: How do the various religious organizations view cyberware?
>Does a Hassidic (sp?) Jew have to stop using his cyber eyes for the Sabbath?

i doubt this, sine it is a part of them, you pay for the eyes with essence
so they become you.

>Do Buddhists feel that cyber removes one from the Path, and away from
>enlightenment?

Well cyberware causes a loss of essence, or connection to the universe in
some ways, i would think the Buddhists would avoid cyberware for this
reasons. This is a good question though, i haven;t seen any canon on it
really, though i vaguely remember a sourcebook mentioning some heavily
cybered Roman Catholic types. I'l lsee if i can find the reference


--lomion
Message no. 3
From: Lars Ericson lericson@****.edu
Subject: Religion and cyber
Date: Mon, 25 Oct 1999 12:30:16 -0500
David Cordy wrote:
> My question is: How do the various religious organizations view cyberware?
> Does a Hassidic (sp?) Jew have to stop using his cyber eyes for the Sabbath?
> Do Buddhists feel that cyber removes one from the Path, and away from
> enlightenment? I am also curious if there is any thing canon on this.
> Thanks for your time.
>
> DavidC.

I suspect some of this will be addresses in the upcoming Man & Machine.
A more complete discussion might be had if the thread was held on the
back burner for a month.

--
=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-Lars Ericson: Professional Vagabond
Smalley Research Group, Rice University
E-Mail: lericson@****.edu
WWW: http://www.ruf.rice.edu/~lericson/

Life is like a Wankel Engine. In between the emptiness of boredom and
despair, and the compression of stress in one's life, there's that one
spark of enjoyment that keeps you going.
Message no. 4
From: Number Ten Ox Number_10_Ox@**********.com
Subject: Religion and cyber
Date: Mon, 25 Oct 1999 10:39:28 -0700 (PDT)
--- David Cordy <david.cordy@****.com> wrote:

> Does a Hassidic (sp?) Jew have to stop using his cyber eyes for the
> Sabbath?
The spelling is correct, and (IMO, at least) -- no, he would not. The
biblical injunction about the Sabbath states (roughly) that you must not
perform *work*, but rather must rest and enjoy the beauty of God's
creation. Electricity falls under the injunction because it performs work:
a cybereye, however, runs off electricity generated by the body itself, and
thus would not be (in and of itself) performing 'work'. Besides, if your
eyes are turned off, how can you see the glory of the World?

Whether a Hassidic Jew will get cybereyes in the first place is a question
open to debate, however. Also, feel free to take the above with a small
Siberian salt mine, since I am not a particularly devout or knowledgeable
Jew. (I'm not a Hassid, I just play one in an RPG? :>)

--Number 10.




====--Number 10 Ox.
"It's a big yellow rubber ducky."
"Is it rigger-driven?"


__________________________________________________
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Message no. 5
From: Strago strago@***.com
Subject: Religion and cyber
Date: Mon, 25 Oct 1999 13:44:58 -0400
lomion wrote:

> <SNIP>

> Well cyberware causes a loss of essence, or connection to the universe in
> some ways, i would think the Buddhists would avoid cyberware for this
> reasons. This is a good question though, i haven;t seen any canon on it
> really, though i vaguely remember a sourcebook mentioning some heavily
> cybered Roman Catholic types. I'l lsee if i can find the reference
>
> --lomion

Could it be in Aztlan, in reference to the New Jesuits (I forget what they're
called and one of my players who's not in the same state has my Aztlan
Sourcebook). But I'm not too sure.
Message no. 6
From: Max Rible slothman@*********.org
Subject: Religion and cyber
Date: Mon, 25 Oct 1999 10:47:04 -0700
At 10:32 10/25/99 -0700, lomion wrote:
>At 10:20 AM 10/25/99 -0700, you wrote:
>>My question is: How do the various religious organizations view cyberware?
>>Does a Hassidic (sp?) Jew have to stop using his cyber eyes for the Sabbath?
>
>i doubt this, sine it is a part of them, you pay for the eyes with essence
>so they become you.

I doubt most religious organizations would take the evidence of magic
as relevant to their theological positions. I expect that the more
conservative religions might insist on using clonal tissue rather than
cyberware whenever possible. Some *really* conservative ones might
say that using modern technology like transplants and cyberware to
fix the problems you've been dealt is wrong, you need to just bear
up under your burdens, but I don't think those would be more than very
tiny splinter groups.

>>Do Buddhists feel that cyber removes one from the Path, and away from
>>enlightenment?

>Well cyberware causes a loss of essence, or connection to the universe in
>some ways, i would think the Buddhists would avoid cyberware for this
>reasons.

I think the Buddhist perspective would be that cyberware that you get
for its utility creates attachment to the material world, which would
be straying from the Way. If you just have it for medical reasons,
it would be less distracting than if you have something designed to
help you do real-world tasks. (I'm not sure how much of the "life
is suffering" notion they would apply; I could imagine conservatives
saying that the use of cyberware to fix medical problems would be
alleviating suffering you need to purify your soul...)

--
%% Max Rible %%% max@********.com %%% http://www.amurgsval.org/~slothman/ %%
%% "Ham is good... Glowing *tattooed* ham is *bad*!" - the Tick %%
Message no. 7
From: Ereskanti@***.com Ereskanti@***.com
Subject: Religion and cyber
Date: Mon, 25 Oct 1999 15:56:42 EDT
In a message dated 10/25/1999 12:32:42 PM US Eastern Standard Time,
lomion@*********.or writes:

>
> Well cyberware causes a loss of essence, or connection to the universe in
> some ways, i would think the Buddhists would avoid cyberware for this
> reasons. This is a good question though, i haven;t seen any canon on it
> really, though i vaguely remember a sourcebook mentioning some heavily
> cybered Roman Catholic types. I'l lsee if i can find the reference
>
IIRC, RIFTS has something on this type of thing.

-K
[Hoosier Hacker House]
[http://members.aol.com/hhackerh/index.html]
ICQ#-51511837
Message no. 8
From: Ereskanti@***.com Ereskanti@***.com
Subject: Religion and cyber
Date: Mon, 25 Oct 1999 16:00:30 EDT
In a message dated 10/25/1999 12:52:08 PM US Eastern Standard Time,
slothman@*********.org writes:

>
> >>Do Buddhists feel that cyber removes one from the Path, and away from
> >>enlightenment?
>
> >Well cyberware causes a loss of essence, or connection to the universe in
> >some ways, i would think the Buddhists would avoid cyberware for this
> >reasons.
>
> I think the Buddhist perspective would be that cyberware that you get
> for its utility creates attachment to the material world, which would
> be straying from the Way. If you just have it for medical reasons,
> it would be less distracting than if you have something designed to
> help you do real-world tasks. (I'm not sure how much of the "life
> is suffering" notion they would apply; I could imagine conservatives
> saying that the use of cyberware to fix medical problems would be
> alleviating suffering you need to purify your soul...)

Okay folks, time for a question. IFC (Independant Film Channel) has been
running a film with "Buddha" as a prime character now for a while this month.
And although I think Keanu Reaves is a sucky actor in general, I do think
this one he does some measure of good justice to.

Anyone have the name, because I can never find it in the TV Guide?

Anyway, I would highly suggest watching it, because it is quite enjoyable and
surprisingly high level of effects and cinematography from stuff I normally
see on IFC (which to me at least is normally for more "acting" level films).

-K
[Hoosier Hacker House]
[http://members.aol.com/hhackerh/index.html]
ICQ#-51511837
Message no. 9
From: David Cordy david.cordy@****.com
Subject: Religion and cyber
Date: Mon, 25 Oct 1999 13:23:32 -0700
> Okay folks, time for a question. IFC (Independant Film Channel) has been
> running a film with "Buddha" as a prime character now for a while this
> month.
> And although I think Keanu Reaves is a sucky actor in general, I do think
>
> this one he does some measure of good justice to.
>
> Anyone have the name, because I can never find it in the TV Guide?
>
It is "Little Buddha". I just watched it last week with my wife. She
usually hates Keanu, but still really liked the movie. I would recommend it
as well.

DavidC.
Message no. 10
From: Scott W iscottw@*****.nb.ca
Subject: Religion and cyber
Date: Mon, 25 Oct 1999 17:47:30 -0300
"And now, a Channel 6 editorial reply to Strago."
] > Well cyberware causes a loss of essence, or connection to the universe in
] > some ways, i would think the Buddhists would avoid cyberware for this
] > reasons. This is a good question though, i haven;t seen any canon on it
] > really, though i vaguely remember a sourcebook mentioning some heavily
] > cybered Roman Catholic types. I'l lsee if i can find the reference
] >
] > --lomion
]
] Could it be in Aztlan, in reference to the New Jesuits (I forget
what they're
] called and one of my players who's not in the same state has my Aztlan
] Sourcebook). But I'm not too sure.

Page 96, Aztlan, "Rumor also claims that a significant portion of New
Jesuits have undergone cybernetic modification to some degree." This
is then supported by Beowulf in the shadowtalk.

I don't think this affects the mainstream views of the church,
however, as the New Jesuits (if they exist :) are a para-military
group, not Jane Churchgoer and her 4.3 kids.

-Boondocker
Message no. 11
From: Rand Ratinac docwagon101@*****.com
Subject: Religion and cyber
Date: Mon, 25 Oct 1999 19:27:31 -0700 (PDT)
> > Well cyberware causes a loss of essence, or
connection to the universe in some ways, i would think
the Buddhists would avoid cyberware for this reasons.
This is a good question though, i haven;t seen any
canon on it really, though i vaguely remember a
sourcebook mentioning some heavily cybered Roman
Catholic types. I'l lsee if i can find the reference
> >
> > --lomion
>
> Could it be in Aztlan, in reference to the New
Jesuits (I forget what they're called and one of my
players who's not in the same state has my Aztlan
Sourcebook). But I'm not too sure.

Bang on the money, Strago. These guys are mentioned in
the section on Aztlaner Religion, in the subsection
concerning the Catholic Church.

As someone else said, though, you have to remember
these guys are elite agents (shadowrunners, almost),
of the church, not your regular believers. They may
have special "dispensations" from the Pope or a
Cardinal or two to get all this stuff done to their
bodies.

Personally, I don't think the Christian religions
would have a lot of problems with cyberware, but I can
see others having them (for instance, the Jehovah's
Witnesses may not even allow CLONAL transplants,
depending on how strictly they interpret things).

On the other hand, you're likely to get a bunch of
wacky new cults starting up based around improving
yourself with cyber (think Street Preacher from Johnny
Mnemonic - the movie, not the short story - I haven't
read the story, so I don't know if he's in it).

====Doc'
(aka Mr. Freaky Big, Super-Dynamic Troll of Tomorrow)

.sig Sauer
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Message no. 12
From: Richard Tomasso rtomasso@*******.com
Subject: Religion and cyber
Date: Wed, 27 Oct 1999 11:18:35 -0400 (EDT)
> From: Rand Ratinac <docwagon101@*****.com>

>
> <Snippola(TM)>
> > Thanks,
> > --Rat, pathetic Shadowrun completionist and Dunk
> > junkie
>
> *Doc' wonders if he can now add "Shifty Spy for
> Pathetic Shadowrun Completionist and Dunk Junkie" to
> his sig...*
>

Hey, the title certainly couldn't go to a more
deserving guy!

:)

--Rat, P.S.C. & D. J.

=>=>=>=>=>=>=>=>=>=>=>=>=>=>=>=>=>=>=>=>=>=>=>=>=>=>=>=>=>=>=>=>
Rat - winterhawk@*********.net http://www.magespace.net
Winterhawk's Virtual Magespace - Shadowrun Fiction and More!
DOD#1211 1999 K1200RS - "Dunkelzahn"
"The pickles are staring at me..."
<=<=<=<=<=<=<=<=<=<=<=<=<=<=<=<=<=<=<=<=<=<=<=<=<=<=<=<=<=<=<=<



From screamingskull@****.com Wed, 27 Oct 1999 12:10:18 -0400 (EDT)
Date: Wed, 27 Oct 1999 12:10:18 -0400 (EDT)
From: tyrell hughes screamingskull@****.com
S
Message no. 13
From: Joseph Kerian jk1@*****.polarcomm.com
Subject: Religion and cyber
Date: Thu, 04 Nov 1999 15:03:46 -0600
At 11:18 AM 10/27/99 -0400, you wrote:
>David Cordy wrote:
>> My question is: How do the various religious organizations view cyberware?
>
>Well, Catholicism does have a doctrine against mutilation. I can't think
>of any cyber that would allow one to be more spiritual. Cyber that corrected
>a serious medication condition (blindness, loss of a limb, etc) would
>probably pass, but strickly voluntary 'ware, probably not. I doubt anyone
>would be ex-communicated for it, but it would not be encouraged. Like most
>issues, I'm sure opinion varies from priest to priest, with the lay
population
>having a more practical or locally-influenced view, and the Vatican making
>some pronouncement which is adhered to more or less from parish to parish.
>
>It would be interesting to know whether or not Catholic hospitals would
>perform cyber surgery. And what military chaplains think of cyber-modded
>soldiers in their charge.
I don't really think Catholic hospitals would have a problem with cyber
surgery, or even cyber additions. Just make analogies to modern day
surgery. The church doesn't have problems with transplants (unless there
are other problems), so what would be wrong with the mechanical replacement?
Regarding the doctrine on mutilation, that has to do with a person hating
his/her own body, and therefore abusing it. That shouldn't really apply to
most cyber.

A few examples:
Cybereyes: Fine, the church would basically consider this a more advanced
form of spectacles. :)
Wired Reflexes: Sure, these just make a person faster.
Datajack: The church doesn't condemn computers in themselves (or the skill
of typing), but some uses are more morally hazardous than others.
Cyber-weapons, et al: Hmmm, depends on use and location. You wouldn't
expect Cardinal O'Conner to smile on his parishoners bringing AK-47s to his
Cathedral, but it's pretty common in places like Sudan.

Joe Kerian
jk1@*********.com

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