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Message no. 1
From: Robert Cozens <RobCozens@**********.COM>
Subject: Religion in RPG (OT?)
Date: Fri, 17 Apr 1998 07:06:17 -0400
I apologize if this offends anyone, that is not my intention.

From recent postings here I have concluded that a number of the
posters might have religious (Christian) beliefs, from my limited
experience with a few different Christians, they find that my Gaming
(especially AD&D) very difficult to cope with. =


I have had RPG described as letting other characters invade your
body and thus opening up to the potential for demons to posses you. A act=
,
like method acting, that was very dangerous and something that one should=
nt
practice. =


My question , should anyone be able to answer it, is how do you
Christians, or your Christian friends deal with gaming, or is it just not=
a
problem. ?


Rob.....
Message no. 2
From: Craig J Wilhelm Jr <craigjwjr@*********.NET>
Subject: Re: Religion in RPG (OT?)
Date: Fri, 17 Apr 1998 07:39:21 -0400
On 07:06 AM 4/17/98 , Robert Cozens wrote:
> I have had RPG described as letting other characters invade your
>body and thus opening up to the potential for demons to posses you. A act,
>like method acting, that was very dangerous and something that one shouldnt
>practice.

Yup, I've heard that one. I find it hilarious as hell.

> My question , should anyone be able to answer it, is how do you
>Christians, or your Christian friends deal with gaming, or is it just not a
>problem. ?


It's normally not a problem. However I've had peeps tell me that I was
opening myself up to satanic influences by gaming. I usually tell these
people that everything they've heard about RPGs is bull shit and I know for
a fact that I aint gonna go off and slay my parents or something. If they
don't get the hint after the first time, well... I usually tell them to
fuck off or I'll summon up some shit that'll swallow them whole. But then
again, I aint a very nice person... ;)

Craig "Knee Deep in the Blood of Swine" Wilhelm
Afterlife Incorperated,
Quality Carnage at Affordable Prices.
UIN: 1864690
-------------BEGIN GEEK CODE BLOCK-------------
v3.12
GAT/$ d- s+:+ a- C+++ U--- P+ L- E-- W++ N++
o K- w+ O> !M-- !V PS+ PE Y+ PGP++ t--- 5+++
X-- R++ tv b++ DI-- D+(Q2++) G++ e++ h* r y++**
--------------END GEEK CODE BLOCK--------------
Message no. 3
From: Ereskanti <Ereskanti@***.COM>
Subject: Re: Religion in RPG (OT?)
Date: Fri, 17 Apr 1998 08:38:19 EDT
In a message dated 4/17/98 6:10:47 AM US Eastern Standard Time,
RobCozens@**********.COM writes:

> My question , should anyone be able to answer it, is how do you
> Christians, or your Christian friends deal with gaming, or is it just not a
> problem. ?
>
I have noticed that with SR, it has not been a problem (for us at least).
Several years ago, it was a HUGE problem with AD&D players vs. the
"Watchers".
To me, most of it is in an individual's own personal beliefs.

(shrug)
-K
Message no. 4
From: Brett Borger <bxb121@***.EDU>
Subject: Re: Religion in RPG (OT?)
Date: Fri, 17 Apr 1998 08:49:25 +0000
> From recent postings here I have concluded that a number of the
> posters might have religious (Christian) beliefs, from my limited
> experience with a few different Christians, they find that my Gaming
> (especially AD&D) very difficult to cope with.

"Christian" is a very broad term. That covers everything from
born-again extremist, to Roman Catholic by-the-Book, to Christmas and
easter church goers, to people who believe in Jesus and who might
pray in a disaster. It's very hard to generalize with such breadth.

> I have had RPG described as letting other characters invade your
> body and thus opening up to the potential for demons to posses you. A act,
> like method acting, that was very dangerous and something that one shouldnt
> practice.

Okay. I didn't realize that method acting was satanic. Oh well.

> My question , should anyone be able to answer it, is how do you
> Christians, or your Christian friends deal with gaming, or is it just not a
> problem. ?

I'm Christian (of the more "loose" variety), and it has never been a
problem, because there is NOTHING in gaming that violates my beliefs.
Anyone spout the schlock you mentioned is either:
1) of a particularly strict/weird sect or
2) Making up some justification as to why they don't like gaming.

Thus, it really comes down to an individual thing. Role-playing is
no different than acting or coming up with a story. And if these
actions are "dangerous", well, let me be endangered.

-=SwiftOne=-
668, Neighbor of the Beast
Brett Borger
SwiftOne@***.edu
AAP Techie
Message no. 5
From: Ereskanti <Ereskanti@***.COM>
Subject: Re: Religion in RPG (OT?)
Date: Fri, 17 Apr 1998 08:40:28 EDT
In a message dated 4/17/98 6:38:37 AM US Eastern Standard Time,
craigjwjr@*********.NET writes:

> It's normally not a problem. However I've had peeps tell me that I
> was
> opening myself up to satanic influences by gaming. I usually tell these
> people that everything they've heard about RPGs is bull shit and I know for
> a fact that I aint gonna go off and slay my parents or something. If they
> don't get the hint after the first time, well... I usually tell them to
> fuck off or I'll summon up some shit that'll swallow them whole. But then
> again, I aint a very nice person... ;)
>
OH NO!!!! We found him everyone, the "Mr. Hanky Shaman" has been
found...see, he summons' up...oh the horror, I just can't bring myself to say
it...

-K (yes, it's early when I posted this, I know)
Message no. 6
From: Robert Cozens <RobCozens@**********.COM>
Subject: Re: Religion in RPG (OT?)
Date: Fri, 17 Apr 1998 09:19:56 -0400
Message text written by =

-=SwiftOne=-
668, Neighbor of the Beast
Brett Borger
SwiftOne@***.edu
AAP Techie<

<snip>
>"Christian" is a very broad term. That covers everything from
>born-again extremist, to Roman Catholic by-the-Book, to Christmas and
>easter church goers, to people who believe in Jesus and who might
>pray in a disaster. It's very hard to generalize with such breadth.

I left it that way to cover everyone that I've met. Granted the "loose
Christians" as you've called yourself, and their counterparts overhere =

have tended to be the best. The new-age born-again types have had
difficulties accepting my gaming, at worst thinking its a sad past-time.
Then again one of these people wont eneter any shop that sells Tarrot car=
ds
as the use of these cards is evil and she doesn't want the temptation. =


>Okay. I didn't realize that method acting was satanic. Oh well.

Well in so corners of London it is. =

Though I've had stories about a christian RPG where newcomers to the fait=
h
are given the roles of disciples and are expected to learn some lessons b=
y
acting out the conficts faced during the early times. =


> My question , should anyone be able to answer it, is how do you=

> Christians, or your Christian friends deal with gaming, or is it just n=
ot
a
> problem. ?

>I'm Christian (of the more "loose" variety), and it has never been a
>problem, because there is NOTHING in gaming that violates my beliefs.
> Anyone spout the schlock you mentioned is either:
>1) of a particularly strict/weird sect or
>2) Making up some justification as to why they don't like gaming.

I think thats the point. Many RPGers have their views, argue the t0ss wit=
h
each other on these beliefs and generally respect other people who have a=

different opinon. Many of the Religous types dont. In the past
non-believers were slaughtered, now they are just pityed. (sorry ramblins=
.)

rob....
Message no. 7
From: Cobra <wgallas@*****.FR>
Subject: Re: Religion in RPG (OT?)
Date: Fri, 17 Apr 1998 16:06:12 +0200
> I apologize if this offends anyone, that is not my intention.
Ok.

> From recent postings here I have concluded that a number of the
>posters might have religious (Christian) beliefs, from my limited
>experience with a few different Christians, they find that my Gaming
>(especially AD&D) very difficult to cope with.
Your gaming ? Well, I'm roman catholic with latin rite and I don't like
when a RPG deals lightly with God. Generally I consider that what are
considered as gods in RPG are some kind of powerful beings in these
universes and nothing more...
This is especially clear if you look a bit at these deities. They're
totally superficial.
In the past (in the beginning of AD&D), they included caracteristics for
saints in the deities book. Church gave a veto on that and they didn't
include it. IMO, that's a good thing. RPG and RL are not the same and
giving stats for God is typically an offense.

> I have had RPG described as letting other characters invade your
>body and thus opening up to the potential for demons to posses you. A act,
>like method acting, that was very dangerous and something that one shouldnt
>practice.
???
I never heard such a thing !!!
I think it must be american... I never understood american believes...
This isn't linked to christians but to US something.

> My question , should anyone be able to answer it, is how do you
>Christians, or your Christian friends deal with gaming, or is it just not a
>problem. ?
The major point is to do no offense to the Sacred Name of God. Then, it's a
game. I don't believe it's reality and so there's no problem with doing
evil thing with a character since you don't do it yourself...

>Rob.....
- Cobra.
Message no. 8
From: Nexx <nexx@********.NET>
Subject: Re: Religion in RPG (OT?)
Date: Fri, 17 Apr 1998 09:23:36 -0500
> My question , should anyone be able to answer it, is how do you
> Christians, or your Christian friends deal with gaming, or is it just
not a
> problem. ?
I've only known a few Christians who actually had a problem with it. My
mother thinks it wrong, but she's stopped saying anything. On friend of
mine didn't like them, but I think that was mostly because I wasn't
spending time with her when I was gaming. I've known a few people who had
real problems with it, but none of them meant enough to me for me to care
about what they thought.
I actually was Christian the first couple years of my gaming life, and I
didn't see what was wrong with it. You drew lines in your mind: over
here was the game, over here was reality. Sure, my character in the game
may have 101 different guns, and a bunch of ammo for each, but that was
only fiction. IRL, I don't like guns, won't use one except in self
defense, and likely not even then since I won't keep one around.
I think most of the people who have trouble with role-playing games are
people who buy too deeply into the hype that surrounded them early on.
They see groups that do weird shit (like the Vampire cults that are
supposedly everywhere), and think that every gamer has that much of a
problem, even though research doesn't hold that up. I've seen pamphlets
that imply that gamers are more likely to suicide, but I've actually seen
the numbers, and they show that gaming actually decreases your likelihood
of committing suicide.

***************
Rev. Mark Hall, Bardagh
aka Pope Nexx Many-Scars, PML FAQ Cop
************
Three sparks that kindle love: a face, demeanour, speech
Three things that hide ugliness: good manners in the ill-favoured,
skill in a serf, wisdom in the misshapen.
Three things that ruin wisdom: ignorance, inaccurate knowledge,
forgetfullness. .
Three candles that illume every darkness: truth, nature, knowledge.
Three signs of a bad man: bitterness, hatred, cowardice.
Message no. 9
From: David Buehrer <dbuehrer@******.CARL.ORG>
Subject: Re: Religion in RPG (OT?)
Date: Fri, 17 Apr 1998 08:46:05 -0600
Robert Cozens wrote:
/
/ From recent postings here I have concluded that a number of the
/ posters might have religious (Christian) beliefs, from my limited
/ experience with a few different Christians, they find that my Gaming
/ (especially AD&D) very difficult to cope with.

/ I have had RPG described as letting other characters invade
/ your body and thus opening up to the potential for demons to posses
/ you. A act, like method acting, that was very dangerous and
/ something that one shouldnt practice.

/ My question , should anyone be able to answer it, is how do
/ you Christians, or your Christian friends deal with gaming, or is it
/ just not a problem?

It doesn't have anything to do with Christianity. The people who are
afraid of RPG games are afraid because they're idiots. Just because
they use what they believe to be the tenants of Christianity as fuel
for their beliefs doesn't mean that Christianity is the cause. The
idiots are just using Christianity as a sword to attack RPGs.

Christianity is not the issue with these people, ignorance and
prejiduce are the issues.

BTW, when I was a christian I and many of the other members of the
youth of the church played RPG games and none of the members of the
church had a problem with that. We were all good kids and weren't
adversly affected. Nor did we adversly affect the church. When the
adults came down on us it was for talking during the service or doing
donuts with our parent's car in the church parking lot :)

-David
--
"The growth of true friendship may be a lifelong affair."
- Sarah Orne Jewett
--
ShadowRN GridSec
email: dbuehrer@******.carl.org
http://www.geocities.com/TimesSquare/1068/homepage.htm
Message no. 10
From: David Buehrer <dbuehrer@******.CARL.ORG>
Subject: Re: Religion in RPG (OT?)
Date: Fri, 17 Apr 1998 08:53:34 -0600
Just want to add one more thing.

Respect the values and feelings of the people you game with.

One of my players is a christian. He isn't comfortable with demons
and devils being represented in RPGs. Encountering demons and devils
with my characters doesn't bother me. But, I respect his needs and
don't use demons or devils in my games.

My wife is not comfortable with the issue of rape, at all. I will
never run an encounter that involves a rape of an NPC or a PC. I
might use it as background (Mr. Johnson hires the PCs to kill the man
that raped his daughter) but I will never run the actual event.

-David
--
"The growth of true friendship may be a lifelong affair."
- Sarah Orne Jewett
--
ShadowRN GridSec
email: dbuehrer@******.carl.org
http://www.geocities.com/TimesSquare/1068/homepage.htm
Message no. 11
From: Erik Jameson <erikj@****.COM>
Subject: Re: Religion in RPG (OT?)
Date: Fri, 17 Apr 1998 13:14:10 -0400
At 04:06 PM 4/17/98 +0200, you wrote:

>I never heard such a thing !!!
>I think it must be american... I never understood american believes...
>This isn't linked to christians but to US something.
>

I *was* going to say something I might hav regretted, but GridSec is
stepping in on this quickly and early so I'll back off...see, you do have a
real effect!

I will say this though. I don't believe it's an "American" thing. The
whole hub-bub around this admittedly delicate issue is that parents and
others who at least claim to have the best interests of children in mind
become concerned when their children act or do something different than is
normal; this is a world-wide behavior of parents.

Basically, if little Johnny starts buying Magic cards instead of trying out
for the football team (American or European football), that's not seen as
entirely normal and little Johnny's parents become concerned. Of course,
if he never touchs Magic or any RPG and starts dressing in black all the
time and listens to Sisters of Mercy and Marilyn Manson all the time,
that's also cause for parental concern, because it's not within what
society determines as normal for teenagers and young adults.

You also have to admit that many of us here (and RPGers in general) are at
least mildly strange and occassionally somewhat obsessive, and sometimes
much more so. That means we tend to get into Shadowrun or AD$D or Vampire:
the Gathering or whatever a little deeper than what our family and friends
might see as normal. Now if we took the same strangeness and obsession to
football or something, that would be seem as still odd, but at least
acceptable.

Those people that hammer you for playing RPGs are often rude, intolerant
and very often ignorant. But they honestly believe they have your best
interests in mind, whether it be your immortal soul or your social standing
in high school. Don't "go on the offensive" or attack them; calmly educate
them to the errors of their ways and be prepared to accept that they may
not change. You know you aren't, right?

Erik J.

Damn. I'm starting to understand my parents and I'm nowhere near marriage
and children...somewhat frightening...
Message no. 12
From: Cobra <wgallas@*****.FR>
Subject: Re: Religion in RPG (OT?)
Date: Fri, 17 Apr 1998 19:24:40 +0200
>I think thats the point. Many RPGers have their views, argue the t0ss with
>each other on these beliefs and generally respect other people who have a
>different opinon. Many of the Religous types dont. In the past
>non-believers were slaughtered, now they are just pityed. (sorry ramblins.)

It's typical for non believers to say : We're best than they are...
Typically, I've seen much more non believers not being able to respect
others' opinions than with christians.

You must understand (perhaps it'll be difficult) that believing in God and
his son Jesus Christ as the saver of humanity is NOT a little thing. It's
not the same level as believing asphalt is better than mud, nor racism is
worse than non racism. It's even a lot more bigger than *believing* in
science because science has its own rules which limit it (or more precisely
should limit it).
If you believe in God, it changes your entire life. Well... How could you
understand if you think it's like any other thought...

For christians slaughtering non believers, you should study history a bit
more and not accepting as verity the common ideas. And when I say study
history, I mean looking at the documents, the historical background. And
here is a hint : Governments weren't Church in the middle ages. This wasn't
the same entity at all !

I didn't mean to start any flame war so only stop being blasphemous and I
won't reply. Respect of others is two ways.

- Cobra.
Message no. 13
From: Ogre <ogre@***.CYBNET.CO.UK>
Subject: Re: Religion in RPG (OT?)
Date: Fri, 17 Apr 1998 20:04:44 +0100
If you think itsa hard explaining RPG's to people, then try explaining
Live Role Playing to people.

Over here in the UK Reinactment is considerded 'odd' but not werid.
Explain that wot you do is dress up as an Ogre and run around woods
waving rubber swords and people start lokking around for the pile of
striat jackets.....

To complcate matters consider explaing that you dress up as a Troll, wave
water pistols and LRP Shadowrun and it gets worse......

Even some RPG'ers think us LRP'ers are mad. Explain to a committed
religous type? No thanks.

Ogre
http://www.geocitis.com/Area51/Lair/2815

*Does anyone know NASA's phone number? It's teriblly important I get off
planet, before my phone bill arrives....*
Message no. 14
From: Lehlan Decker <decker@****.FSU.EDU>
Subject: Re: Religion in RPG (OT?)
Date: Fri, 17 Apr 1998 14:21:09 -0500
>
> If you think itsa hard explaining RPG's to people, then try explaining
> Live Role Playing to people.
>
> Over here in the UK Reinactment is considerded 'odd' but not werid.
> Explain that wot you do is dress up as an Ogre and run around woods
> waving rubber swords and people start lokking around for the pile of
> striat jackets.....
>
> To complcate matters consider explaing that you dress up as a Troll, wave
> water pistols and LRP Shadowrun and it gets worse......
>
> Even some RPG'ers think us LRP'ers are mad. Explain to a committed
> religous type? No thanks.
>
The same is true on this side of the woods. Particulary with Live Action
Vampire, which seems to one of the more popular larps.
What's the old seeing, "What people don't understand, they fear. What
people fear, they seek to destory". Hell, most theater people are considered
very "odd", so I guess my exstension, roleplayers, and more so larp's
are even "odder". At least there are no demons in shadowruns, that seemed
to be people's biggest complain about AD&D ages ago.
I think the problem is, people view the RPG as influencing people into
cults etc. I think its reversed. People who are attracted to alternative
lifestyles etc, also tend to be into Rpgs, the reverse isn't always the
case.
Ah well....no one said living out the "norm" was easy. :)
--
--------------------------------------------------------------------
Lehlan Decker 644-4534 Systems Development
decker@****.fsu.edu http://www.scri.fsu.edu/~decker
--------------------------------------------------------------------
"Uh-Oh Toto, it doesn't look like we're gods anymore."
Message no. 15
From: "Steven A. Tinner" <bluewizard@*****.COM>
Subject: Re: Religion in RPG (OT?)
Date: Fri, 17 Apr 1998 13:17:33 -0400
My question , should anyone be able to answer it, is how do you Christians,
or your Christian friends deal with gaming, or is it just not a problem. ?

I know that GridSec has declared this a dead thread, but as a Christian, and
a Bible Major who did his senior thesis on this topic, I felt compelled to
write on this topic.

First off, thanks for your comment about not wanting to offend anyone. If we
all did that in everything, this topic would never have come up in the first
place! ;-)

As far as RPG's go, it's really a personal decision. Like David Buehrer
said, since a player in his games doesn't like demons, he doesn't use them
in his games.

If you have that type of player as a GM, it's your decision. If you want to
keep that player, you should accomodate him. If you would rather play
differently, then that is your choice.

As far as explaining things to people who believe that ALL RPG's are evil,
be forewarned that there are some people who will NEVER be persuaded
differently. With that in mind, the best way to explain RPG's is by showing
the game to people.

Invite a sceptic to play with you, or observe a game. If they agree, I'm
sure they'll be able to make an informed choice. I they play and still don't
like it, then it's their personal choice, and should be respected.

If however they refuse to play, and still proclaim the RPG's are evil, then
their opinion is obviously invalid, as it has no basis in experience.

It all comes down to this. Is the person a runner in the race, who honestly
has personal convictions about parts of RPG's? Or are they simply a sniper
on the sidelines, touting a partyline about their pre-conceived notions.

That said, if anyone wants to discuss this more, send to me privately.

Steven A. Tinner
bluewizard@*****.com
http://www.ncweb.com/users/bluewizard
"Every new beginning comes from some other beginning's end." - Semisonic
Message no. 16
From: Mark Ellis <mark@******.IDISCOVER.CO.UK>
Subject: Re: Religion in RPG (OT?)
Date: Fri, 17 Apr 1998 20:00:20 +0100
>I will say this though. I don't believe it's an "American" thing. The
>whole hub-bub around this admittedly delicate issue is that parents and
>others who at least claim to have the best interests of children in mind
>become concerned when their children act or do something different than is
>normal; this is a world-wide behavior of parents.
>


You've pretty much hit the nail on the head with this, and its not really a
religious thing any more than an American thing.
The crux is that most people arent all that used to using their imagination,
and when someone does, by doing something that isnt 'run of the mill', its
just too much for others to get their heads round.
I've found if you manage to explain this stuff to them, they actually think
its fascinating. Alright they may not give it a go themselves, but you cant
have everything.

>
>Damn. I'm starting to understand my parents and I'm nowhere near marriage
>and children...somewhat frightening...
>

Look on the bright side, just imagine what you'll have figured out by the
time you do get to that stage !

Mark
Message no. 17
From: Nexx <nexx@********.NET>
Subject: Re: Religion in RPG (OT?)
Date: Fri, 17 Apr 1998 15:22:43 -0500
> It's typical for non believers to say : We're best than they are...
> Typically, I've seen much more non believers not being able to respect
> others' opinions than with christians.
You ever been a druid in the middle of the Bible belt? I find that
people tend to overlook discrimination by their own group a lot easier
than of their own group. It took me a long time to see some
discrimination that whites practice, and I still have a gut feeling that
its not as bad as its made out to be, but I know that that feeling is
wrong, because I've seen (and have the scars to prove) otherwise.

> For christians slaughtering non believers, you should study history a
bit
> more and not accepting as verity the common ideas. And when I say study
> history, I mean looking at the documents, the historical background. And
> here is a hint : Governments weren't Church in the middle ages. This
wasn't
> the same entity at all !
http://www.geocities.com/Athens/Delphi/6696/burnwitc.htm
Neat little site there. Lists several thousand people killed, if not by
the Church itself, in the name of the Church, and with the tacit consent
of the Church. How about you take a look at the history of the American
West, specifically the treatment of the Native Americans, many of whom, in
addition to having their land stolen, had their children taken from them
to educate them, taking away their culture and their religion?

> I didn't mean to start any flame war so only stop being blasphemous and
I
> won't reply. Respect of others is two ways.
Actually, its not being blasphemous if he doesn't claim to be a member of
the religion he's talking about. Its being frank. If I scream that Oghma
is a no-good rat-bastard, that's blasphemy. If you scream it, its stating
an opinion I don't agree with.

***************
Rev. Mark Hall, Bardagh
aka Pope Nexx Many-Scars, PML FAQ Cop
************
Three sparks that kindle love: a face, demeanour, speech
Three things that hide ugliness: good manners in the ill-favoured,
skill in a serf, wisdom in the misshapen.
Three things that ruin wisdom: ignorance, inaccurate knowledge,
forgetfullness. .
Three candles that illume every darkness: truth, nature, knowledge.
Three signs of a bad man: bitterness, hatred, cowardice.
Message no. 18
From: MgkellyMP5 <MgkellyMP5@***.COM>
Subject: Re: Religion in RPG (OT?)
Date: Fri, 17 Apr 1998 17:43:27 EDT
In a message dated 98-04-17 07:08:03 EDT, you write:

<< My question , should anyone be able to answer it, is how do you
Christians, or your Christian friends deal with gaming, or is it just not a
problem. ?
>>

I've had several friends from different religions that have played RPG's and
it never was a problem. Everyone knows that it is just pretend. As for the
possibility of method-acting opening someone up to the possibility of demonic
possession, shouldn't that mean that those oppossed to it should not watch
television or movies? Isn't that similar, other than the fact that a lot of
role-players do their acting sitting down, while actors physically act out
their roles?
but, that's just my opinion and 2¢....

Mgkelly
Message no. 19
From: Ereskanti <Ereskanti@***.COM>
Subject: Re: Religion in RPG (OT?)
Date: Fri, 17 Apr 1998 17:50:08 EDT
In a message dated 4/17/98 12:19:14 PM US Eastern Standard Time,
erikj@****.COM writes:

> Erik J.
>
> Damn. I'm starting to understand my parents and I'm nowhere near marriage
> and children...somewhat frightening...
>
No Erik, what you are is beginning to understand at a different level. It
hits us all, believe me at least that much...

-K
Message no. 20
From: Ereskanti <Ereskanti@***.COM>
Subject: Re: Religion in RPG (OT?)
Date: Fri, 17 Apr 1998 18:02:34 EDT
In a message dated 4/17/98 12:33:42 PM US Eastern Standard Time,
wgallas@*****.FR writes:

> I didn't mean to start any flame war so only stop being blasphemous and I
> won't reply. Respect of others is two ways.
>
> - Cobra.
>
Actually, correct me if I'm wrong, but Respect goes beyond two ways, as does
Faith and Belief and Myth for that matter. POV has a lot to do with things.

Into SR Mode Now...

"Joe" has a belief that his way is the right way and the only way, and he
happens to be a member of the "Jon Q Public" club. Absolutely nothing special
about him magically, cybernetically, or anything at all.

Nothing except his Belief, his Faith, his Myth.

"Danielle" is a Shaman of Eagle, and has a very devout belief in "God"
(the
psuedo Catholic/Christian variation for this example). Danielle believes that
Eagle is a being from God, and a force that helps her to see better the
actions of God in al manner of things.

Suddenly, out of nowhere, the two of them meet and a philosophical
conversation begins (doesn't this happen to anyone other than me?).

Now "Joe" is just sure as all end belief, that "Danielle" has very
strange and
even "wrong" sets of Belief, Faith and Myth. He even goes as far as to tell
her so.

Now being a shaman and Eagle to boot, she is Proud yet highly empathic (astral
perceptive nature in this case). She tries to convince him that her way is
good for her and for others as well, but may not be right for everyone. Joe
is too bent on just being right, that he misses the key to the entire
conversation.

"Everyone"

When all is and done, they go their seperate ways.

End Question: Who was Right and Who was Wrong?

End Answer: Both of them.

"Joe" has a set of beliefs that do work for him, and remarkably, for many
people as well beyond him. I at least would call him "closed minded", but
sometimes these people are needed to help everyone else remember what a "given
value or extreme can be like."

"Danielle" has a set of beliefs that are shaped by forces she at best is only
barely beginning to understand fully. She does what she can, and she's made a
big step towards that understanding.

Totality.

Now, why did I use the three terms Belief, Faith and Myth? Because what is a
Belief to one individual others may have to take on the value of Faith alone,
while all the rest fail to understand "IT" and describe it as a "Myth"
at
best.

It is most interesting to me when all three forms can be found in one
individual at all times.

-K
Message no. 21
From: Ereskanti <Ereskanti@***.COM>
Subject: Re: Religion in RPG (OT?)
Date: Fri, 17 Apr 1998 18:06:15 EDT
In a message dated 4/17/98 1:02:10 PM US Eastern Standard Time,
ogre@***.CYBNET.CO.UK writes:

> Even some RPG'ers think us LRP'ers are mad. Explain to a committed
> religous type? No thanks.
>
Ah that was easy Ogre...try out other forms of Reinactment, like a "period
costume", and then go to a Village Pantry/Seven-Eleven (Stuffer Shack).
Happen to run into a person you know that is a gamer while you are out, get
into a conversation about "last sunday's game", and the rest will go from
there...

-K
Message no. 22
From: Robert Cozens <RobCozens@**********.COM>
Subject: Re: Religion in RPG (OT?)
Date: Mon, 20 Apr 1998 04:44:03 -0400
Message text written by Cobra

> From recent postings here I have concluded that a number of the
>posters might have religious (Christian) beliefs, from my limited
>experience with a few different Christians, they find that my Gaming
>(especially AD&D) very difficult to cope with.

>>Your gaming ? Well, I'm roman catholic with latin rite and I don't like=

>>when a RPG deals lightly with God. Generally I consider that what are
>>considered as gods in RPG are some kind of powerful beings in these
>>universes and nothing more...
>>This is especially clear if you look a bit at these deities. They're
>>totally superficial.
>>In the past (in the beginning of AD&D), they included caracteristics fo=
r
>>saints in the deities book. Church gave a veto on that and they didn't
>>include it. IMO, that's a good thing. RPG and RL are not the same and
>>giving stats for God is typically an offense.

>
I completely agree. I wish others did.

> I have had RPG described as letting other characters invade your=

>body and thus opening up to the potential for demons to posses you. A ac=
t,
>like method acting, that was very dangerous and something that one
shouldnt
>practice.
???
>>I never heard such a thing !!!
>>I think it must be american... I never understood american believes...
>>This isn't linked to christians but to US something.

I'm English, I've only ever seen america in books and films. The people
that I spoke of were London based new-age evanglists. =


> My question , should anyone be able to answer it, is how do you
>Christians, or your Christian friends deal with gaming, or is it just no=
t
a
>problem. ?
>>The major point is to do no offense to the Sacred Name of God. Then, it=
's
a
>>game. I don't believe it's reality and so there's no problem with doing=

>>evil thing with a character since you don't do it yourself...

I'm a nice chap (i think) I won't try to offend anything. I don't share
your beliefs on God, but that doesn't mean I'll trash them in my games. I=

am also trying to pick up stuff on the Native Americans to help me create=

effective tribes rather that Samy the Shaman stereotypes. =


>Rob.....
- Cobra.
<
Message no. 23
From: Spike <u5a77@*****.CS.KEELE.AC.UK>
Subject: Re: Religion in RPG (OT?)
Date: Mon, 20 Apr 1998 13:46:13 +0100
And verily, did Robert Cozens hastily scribble thusly...
| My question , should anyone be able to answer it, is how do you
|Christians, or your Christian friends deal with gaming, or is it just not
|a problem. ?

Well, I'm an athiest myself, but I'd say anyone with even a grain of
intellect could see the bullshit spouted from the bible bashing anti-d&d
bunch for what it is....

I mean SERIOUSLY. Does anyone who's ever played an RPG believe that crap
about opening yourself up to "demons", just because you like pretending to
be someone else for a few hours a week....

It's just one of those myths spread by fundamentalists who want to scare
naive parants into "saving" their kids.

They're also the ones who try to give statistics saying <blah> people
committed suicide because the played RPGs, when in actual fact, the
percentage of suicides for RPGers is LESS than the percentage for people who
don't.
--
-----------------------------------------------------------------------------
|u5a77@*****.cs.keele.ac.uk| Windows95 (noun): 32 bit extensions and a |
| | graphical shell for a 16 bit patch to an 8 bit |
|Andrew Halliwell | operating system originally coded for a 4 bit |
|Principal Subjects in:- |microprocessor, written by a 2 bit company, that|
|Comp Sci & Electronics | can't stand 1 bit of competition. |
-----------------------------------------------------------------------------
|GCv3.1 GCS/EL>$ d---(dpu) s+/- a- C++ U N++ o+ K- w-- M+/++ PS+++ PE- Y t+ |
|5++ X+/++ R+ tv+ b+ D G e>PhD h/h+ !r! !y-|I can't say F**K either now! :( |
Message no. 24
From: Spike <u5a77@*****.CS.KEELE.AC.UK>
Subject: Re: Religion in RPG (OT?)
Date: Mon, 20 Apr 1998 13:58:11 +0100
And verily, did Cobra hastily scribble thusly...
|In the past (in the beginning of AD&D), they included caracteristics for
|saints in the deities book. Church gave a veto on that and they didn't
|include it. IMO, that's a good thing. RPG and RL are not the same and
|giving stats for God is typically an offense.

Why? It's not giving stats for *YOUR* God. The christian god is supposedly
omnipotent, which means he can't have any stats less than infinite.

Giving stats for pantheistic gods is fine though, because they all have
their mortality and limitations.

(The Norse muythos is a good example)

|> I have had RPG described as letting other characters invade your
|>body and thus opening up to the potential for demons to posses you. A act,
|>like method acting, that was very dangerous and something that one shouldnt
|>practice.
|???
|I never heard such a thing !!!
|I think it must be american... I never understood american believes...
|This isn't linked to christians but to US something.

There are a lot of VERY clueless people out there.
I've spoken to people over here in England who firmly believed that spell
casting and role playing in general was a bad thing because you were
"playing with powers you don't understand" and other bullshit.

The problem is, you can rarly speak to these people, because they are right,
and you are deluded....

|> My question , should anyone be able to answer it, is how do you
|>Christians, or your Christian friends deal with gaming, or is it just not a
|>problem. ?

|The major point is to do no offense to the Sacred Name of God. Then, it's a
|game. I don't believe it's reality and so there's no problem with doing
|evil thing with a character since you don't do it yourself...

Personally, I object to the church having the power of veto on things in an
RPG. It's a game. Live with it. If people who are offended by something in a
module don't like it, tough, don't buy the module, but I believe in fredom
of religion (or lack of it in my case), and don't want the church to have
ANY influence on my life.

If the RPG wanted Saints in it, what's wrong with that?
It might have added a lot to the gaming background, thus adding to the
enjoyment of the game....
--
-----------------------------------------------------------------------------
|u5a77@*****.cs.keele.ac.uk| Windows95 (noun): 32 bit extensions and a |
| | graphical shell for a 16 bit patch to an 8 bit |
|Andrew Halliwell | operating system originally coded for a 4 bit |
|Principal Subjects in:- |microprocessor, written by a 2 bit company, that|
|Comp Sci & Electronics | can't stand 1 bit of competition. |
-----------------------------------------------------------------------------
|GCv3.1 GCS/EL>$ d---(dpu) s+/- a- C++ U N++ o+ K- w-- M+/++ PS+++ PE- Y t+ |
|5++ X+/++ R+ tv+ b+ D G e>PhD h/h+ !r! !y-|I can't say F**K either now! :( |
Message no. 25
From: Spike <u5a77@*****.CS.KEELE.AC.UK>
Subject: Re: Religion in RPG (OT?)
Date: Mon, 20 Apr 1998 14:02:56 +0100
And verily, did Nexx hastily scribble thusly...
|problem, even though research doesn't hold that up. I've seen pamphlets
|that imply that gamers are more likely to suicide, but I've actually seen
|the numbers, and they show that gaming actually decreases your likelihood
|of committing suicide.

Possibly.
The other interpretation for the figures is that the people who play
roleplaying games are of a personality type less inclined to suicide before
they even started playing, which seems more likely.

RPGers are after all, usually more intelligent, creative and inaginative
than the non-RPGer.... On an average, statistical type thingy.


--
-----------------------------------------------------------------------------
|u5a77@*****.cs.keele.ac.uk| Windows95 (noun): 32 bit extensions and a |
| | graphical shell for a 16 bit patch to an 8 bit |
|Andrew Halliwell | operating system originally coded for a 4 bit |
|Principal Subjects in:- |microprocessor, written by a 2 bit company, that|
|Comp Sci & Electronics | can't stand 1 bit of competition. |
-----------------------------------------------------------------------------
|GCv3.1 GCS/EL>$ d---(dpu) s+/- a- C++ U N++ o+ K- w-- M+/++ PS+++ PE- Y t+ |
|5++ X+/++ R+ tv+ b+ D G e>PhD h/h+ !r! !y-|I can't say F**K either now! :( |
Message no. 26
From: Spike <u5a77@*****.CS.KEELE.AC.UK>
Subject: Re: Religion in RPG (OT?)
Date: Mon, 20 Apr 1998 14:17:31 +0100
And verily, did Nexx hastily scribble thusly...
| Actually, its not being blasphemous if he doesn't claim to be a member of
|the religion he's talking about. Its being frank. If I scream that Oghma
|is a no-good rat-bastard, that's blasphemy. If you scream it, its stating
|an opinion I don't agree with.

I was thinking the same thing, about blasphemy.
I can't Blaspheme, because I'm an athiest.

BTW, who is Oghma?
Never heard of that one before....

--
-----------------------------------------------------------------------------
|u5a77@*****.cs.keele.ac.uk| Windows95 (noun): 32 bit extensions and a |
| | graphical shell for a 16 bit patch to an 8 bit |
|Andrew Halliwell | operating system originally coded for a 4 bit |
|Principal Subjects in:- |microprocessor, written by a 2 bit company, that|
|Comp Sci & Electronics | can't stand 1 bit of competition. |
-----------------------------------------------------------------------------
|GCv3.1 GCS/EL>$ d---(dpu) s+/- a- C++ U N++ o+ K- w-- M+/++ PS+++ PE- Y t+ |
|5++ X+/++ R+ tv+ b+ D G e>PhD h/h+ !r! !y-|I can't say F**K either now! :( |
Message no. 27
From: Zixx <t_berghoff@*********.NETSURF.DE>
Subject: Re: Religion in RPG (OT?)
Date: Mon, 20 Apr 1998 21:40:29 +0000
On 17 Apr 98 at 8:53, David Buehrer wrote:

> Just want to add one more thing.
>
> Respect the values and feelings of the people you game with.
>
> One of my players is a christian. He isn't comfortable with demons
> and devils being represented in RPGs. Encountering demons and devils
> with my characters doesn't bother me. But, I respect his needs and
> don't use demons or devils in my games.
>
> My wife is not comfortable with the issue of rape, at all. I will
> never run an encounter that involves a rape of an NPC or a PC. I
> might use it as background (Mr. Johnson hires the PCs to kill the man
> that raped his daughter) but I will never run the actual event.


Hmmmm...interesting. Basically, I do the opposite. The "not being
comfortable"-part is very important in my game. The SR-world is disturbing
at best and I like it to show.

But them again, if a player asked my to stop useing whatever, I'd probably
do it (unless someone askes me not to hurt his PC that much, again...)

Tobias Berghoff a.k.a Zixx
ICQ: 9293066

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Message no. 28
From: David Buehrer <dbuehrer@******.CARL.ORG>
Subject: Re: Religion in RPG (OT?)
Date: Mon, 20 Apr 1998 14:11:19 -0600
Zixx wrote:
/
/ On 17 Apr 98 at 8:53, David Buehrer wrote:
/
/ > Respect the values and feelings of the people you game with.
/ >
/ > One of my players is a christian. He isn't comfortable with demons
/ > and devils being represented in RPGs. Encountering demons and devils
/ > with my characters doesn't bother me. But, I respect his needs and
/ > don't use demons or devils in my games.
/ >
/ > My wife is not comfortable with the issue of rape, at all. I will
/ > never run an encounter that involves a rape of an NPC or a PC. I
/ > might use it as background (Mr. Johnson hires the PCs to kill the man
/ > that raped his daughter) but I will never run the actual event.
/
/ Hmmmm...interesting. Basically, I do the opposite. The "not being
/ comfortable"-part is very important in my game. The SR-world is disturbing
/ at best and I like it to show.

Ditto that. I was just pointing out that if there's a line that a player
doesn't want you to cross, for valid reasons, then you should respect that.

/ But them again, if a player asked my to stop useing whatever, I'd probably
/ do it (unless someone askes me not to hurt his PC that much, again...)

:)

-David
--
"The growth of true friendship may be a lifelong affair."
- Sarah Orne Jewett
--
ShadowRN GridSec
email: dbuehrer@******.carl.org
http://www.geocities.com/TimesSquare/1068/homepage.htm
Message no. 29
From: Ereskanti <Ereskanti@***.COM>
Subject: Re: Religion in RPG (OT?)
Date: Mon, 20 Apr 1998 18:37:32 EDT
Just a Reminder guys...Spike, on your defense...Adam "killed" this topic
really quick...

-K
Message no. 30
From: Ereskanti <Ereskanti@***.COM>
Subject: Re: Religion in RPG (OT?)
Date: Mon, 20 Apr 1998 18:56:01 EDT
In a message dated 4/20/98 3:36:50 PM US Eastern Standard Time,
u5a77@*****.CS.KEELE.AC.UK writes:

> BTW, who is Oghma?
> Never heard of that one before....
>
In most RPG's, he's the Patron of Bards and Druids. Older, more founded
Celtic (I've found a couple of Finnish beliefs that parallel Oghma also)
Beliefs has him as the Scholar to the Gods, and in many ways a variation on
the "Thoth" theme from Egypt...

-K (who really gets a big kick doing cross-referentiality of ancient
religions)

Further Reading

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Thwap!