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Message no. 1
From: K in the Shadows <Ereskanti@***.COM>
Subject: Religious Territories(Re: Awakened Papacy and Middle East)
Date: Fri, 18 Sep 1998 23:42:32 EDT
I have managed to snip the entire thread for this new line of thought. A
strange bit questioning came up tonight between Mike B. another one of our
gaming cadre, and myself.

Do churches in SR times still have the right to grant "sanctuary" in most
nations throughout the world? At least those that are part of the greater
body of the Roman Catholic Church? I know I'm reaching here with a strange
thought, but the term "extraterritoriality" suddenly took a new meaning to us
tonight.

-K
Message no. 2
From: Michael Coleman <mscoleman@********.NET>
Subject: Re: Religious Territories(Re: Awakened Papacy and Middle East)
Date: Sat, 19 Sep 1998 02:02:24 -0500
> I have managed to snip the entire thread for this new line of thought. A
> strange bit questioning came up tonight between Mike B. another one of our
> gaming cadre, and myself.
>
> Do churches in SR times still have the right to grant "sanctuary" in most
> nations throughout the world? At least those that are part of the greater
> body of the Roman Catholic Church? I know I'm reaching here with
> a strange
> thought, but the term "extraterritoriality" suddenly took a new
> meaning to us
> tonight.
>
> -K
>

That is a interesting thought. It could mean that any Catholic Church is
sovereign territory of the Church just like the Vatican City. The problem
is the church does not have much in the way of physical power (troops etc.),
it mostly has moral and religious power. Then again there are the Swiss
Mercenaries. Maybe the Swiss and the Zurich-Orbital will up hold the
Church's sovereignty. It is an interesting train of thought. It would
greatly increase the power of the Church in the Sixth-World. Especially
after the sand that got kicked in their face by Tir-Na-Nog and Aztlan. Then
there are the conflicts between the Church and secular forces. Just think
of anytime in history in which the Church had real power. I think FASA
dodge the religious question in the terms of magic. I think faith would be
a powerful magic. And there are still quite a few true believers in the
Sixth-World to generate magic.

Mike
Message no. 3
From: Nexx <nexx@********.NET>
Subject: Re: Religious Territories(Re: Awakened Papacy and Middle East)
Date: Sat, 19 Sep 1998 02:00:14 -0500
----------
> From: K in the Shadows <Ereskanti@***.COM>
>
> Do churches in SR times still have the right to grant "sanctuary" in
most
> nations throughout the world? At least those that are part of the
greater
> body of the Roman Catholic Church? I know I'm reaching here with a
strange
> thought, but the term "extraterritoriality" suddenly took a new meaning
to us
> tonight.

Interesting... I would think that the church organization would either
have to be a megacorp (for some reason, I'm thinking Scientology) or be
able to claim extraterritoriality because its an embassy (which means the
independent nation status of Vatican City becomes even more important...).

Nexx, who's waiting for Bert and Ernie to come out of the closet on
national TV
Message no. 4
From: Nexx <nexx@********.NET>
Subject: Re: Religious Territories(Re: Awakened Papacy and Middle East)
Date: Sat, 19 Sep 1998 02:06:42 -0500
----------
> From: Michael Coleman <mscoleman@********.NET>
> of anytime in history in which the Church had real power. I think FASA
> dodge the religious question in the terms of magic. I think faith would
be
> a powerful magic. And there are still quite a few true believers in the
> Sixth-World to generate magic.

While I can understand why FASA is avoiding mentioning mainstream
religions (despite liking playing them, I still shudder whenever I read
their description of a druid)... there are too many ways to piss someone
off.
Message no. 5
From: Michael Coleman <mscoleman@********.NET>
Subject: Re: Religious Territories(Re: Awakened Papacy and Middle East)
Date: Sat, 19 Sep 1998 02:30:10 -0500
> > From: Michael Coleman <mscoleman@********.NET>
> > of anytime in history in which the Church had real power. I think FASA
> > dodge the religious question in the terms of magic. I think faith would
> be
> > a powerful magic. And there are still quite a few true believers in the
> > Sixth-World to generate magic.
>
> While I can understand why FASA is avoiding mentioning mainstream
> religions (despite liking playing them, I still shudder whenever I read
> their description of a druid)... there are too many ways to piss someone
> off.
> Nexx
I understand why they didn't do it. Just look it all the grief AD&D got
from Christian Fundamentalists. But I still wish they had done it. They
did "Voodoo" which is a religion, but pissing off a minor religion is
different from pissing of Christians and the Catholic Church. But on the
topic of religious territories I think it would change a lot of thing in the
Sixth World. I think the only one who could pull it off though is the
Catholic Church and maybe the Dahli Lama (especially since he rules Tibet).

Mike
Message no. 6
From: K in the Shadows <Ereskanti@***.COM>
Subject: Re: Religious Territories(Re: Awakened Papacy and Middle East)
Date: Sat, 19 Sep 1998 03:35:19 EDT
In a message dated 9/19/1998 2:03:25 AM US Eastern Standard Time,
nexx@********.NET writes:

>
> Interesting... I would think that the church organization would either
> have to be a megacorp (for some reason, I'm thinking Scientology) or be
> able to claim extraterritoriality because its an embassy (which means the
> independent nation status of Vatican City becomes even more important...).

HEY! Now this one I like. And for reasons only a few here would possibly be
able to figure out (hush Mike!!! ;).

My line of figuring is this way. If "the Vatican" is recognized as it's own
Nation-City-State, then it should have various ways to set up embassarial
addresses throughout the world. It would be like wandering onto a national
embassy.

Restrictions might be things like only one *recognized* embassy in any major
nation, and *perhaps* one recognized embassy within the corporate offices of
each major Megacorp (that is willing at least, going on the idea that a
megacorporation is "semi-national-like status" as well). This would keep
every church from becoming an embassy, and yet allow a few to suddenly aquire
new status and potential authoritarial abilities/sovereignties (I know those
are words, but I can't find the right words for what I mean here).

It would also, as someone else pointed out, be interesting from the POV of
perhaps reclaiming some of it's rights and privileges that it lost or at least
"ground" that it lost when the various Tir disputes and the Aztlan
excommunication's occurred.

-K (who is really thinking strangely, must be the insomnia setting in)


>
> Nexx, who's waiting for Bert and Ernie to come out of the closet on
> national TV
Message no. 7
From: Martin Steffens <chimerae@***.IE>
Subject: Re: Religious Territories(Re: Awakened Papacy and Middle East)
Date: Sat, 19 Sep 1998 12:09:37 +0000
and thus did K in the Shadows speak on 18 Sep 98 at 23:42:

> Do churches in SR times still have the right to grant "sanctuary" in most
> nations throughout the world? At least those that are part of the greater
> body of the Roman Catholic Church? I know I'm reaching here with a strange
> thought, but the term "extraterritoriality" suddenly took a new meaning to
us
> tonight.

If I recall a few current incidents involving illegal immigrants
hiding in churches, I would say no. I don't think the police is
stopped by the church doors anymore, although it still is a bit of a
psychological barrier.

If the RC church managed to ride the wave with the big mega corps
and regain extra-territoriality status for their churches they might
have it again, but that would also mean that any other religious
organisation could claim extraterritorial status. So, maybe in some
countries where they still have enough power they have that status,
but I don't think in all countries.


Martin Steffens
chimerae@***.ie
Message no. 8
From: Sean McCrohan <mccrohan@*****.OIT.GATECH.EDU>
Subject: Re: Religious Territories(Re: Awakened Papacy and Middle East)
Date: Sat, 19 Sep 1998 08:55:35 -0400
K wrote:
> My line of figuring is this way. If "the Vatican" is recognized as it's
own
> Nation-City-State, then it should have various ways to set up embassarial
> addresses throughout the world. It would be like wandering onto a national
> embassy.

Vatican City is, in fact, its own nation - the smallest in the
world. It's entirely contained within the city of Rome. You may have already
known this...I couldn't tell from the way you phrased it. Incidentally,
that's why the Vatican's web page is www.vatican.va - as an independant
nation, they have their own national Internet domain.
I don't know whether or not they have official embassies. I wouldn't
be surprised, certainly. It's even possible that every cathedral might
be considered a consulate (with the bishop or cardinal as consul), but
I've never heard anything to support that notion. Remember that in addition
to their embassies (usually in the capitol of the host country) major
nations usually also maintain consulates in other major cities. I've
driven past the Japanese consulate here in Atlanta a few times.

--Sean
Message no. 9
From: Steve Collins <einan@*********.NET>
Subject: Re: Religious Territories(Re: Awakened Papacy and Middle East)
Date: Sat, 19 Sep 1998 12:28:43 -0400
>K wrote:
>> My line of figuring is this way. If "the Vatican" is recognized as
it's own
>> Nation-City-State, then it should have various ways to set up embassarial
>> addresses throughout the world. It would be like wandering onto a national
>> embassy.
>
> Vatican City is, in fact, its own nation - the smallest in the
>world. It's entirely contained within the city of Rome. You may have already
>known this...I couldn't tell from the way you phrased it. Incidentally,
>that's why the Vatican's web page is www.vatican.va - as an independant
>nation, they have their own national Internet domain.
> I don't know whether or not they have official embassies. I wouldn't
>be surprised, certainly. It's even possible that every cathedral might
>be considered a consulate (with the bishop or cardinal as consul), but
>I've never heard anything to support that notion. Remember that in addition
>to their embassies (usually in the capitol of the host country) major
>nations usually also maintain consulates in other major cities. I've
>driven past the Japanese consulate here in Atlanta a few times.


Well I don't know for certain if they have Embasies here but I know we do
have an Emabsy there. Until last summer the US Ambassador to the Vatican
was former Boston Mayor Ray Flynn (He retired as ambassador to run for
Govenor in Massachusetts). Also when we were going after Noriega in
Panama back during the Regan Administration wasn't he hiding out in the
Vatican Emabsy while we were blasting rock music at him at 120 Decibels
or something like that.

Steve
Message no. 10
From: Micheal Feeney <Starrngr@***.COM>
Subject: Re: Religious Territories(Re: Awakened Papacy and Middle East)
Date: Sat, 19 Sep 1998 18:46:37 EDT
In a message dated 98-09-19 08:55:57 EDT, you write:

<< I don't know whether or not they have official embassies. I
wouldn't
be surprised, certainly. It's even possible that every cathedral might
be considered a consulate (with the bishop or cardinal as consul), but
I've never heard anything to support that notion. Remember that in addition
to their embassies (usually in the capitol of the host country) major
nations usually also maintain consulates in other major cities. I've
driven past the Japanese consulate here in Atlanta a few times. >>

I would go with that. The one thing to remember is that while there is an
embasy, In a large country there are often brance consulate offices in other
large cities. These consulates and thier staff enjpy the same
extrateratoriality and privalges as the main embasy. Given this fact, and the
fact that the Vactican is a nation in its own right, I see no reason why Major
cathedrals (the ones presided over by the cardinals) couldnt be considered
Embasies for the Vatican and local cathedrals the equivalent of consulates.
Especially if the swiss get to suply them mercenaries to enforce this....
Message no. 11
From: Lady Jestyr <jestyr@*******.COM.AU>
Subject: Re: Religious Territories(Re: Awakened Papacy and Middle East)
Date: Sun, 20 Sep 1998 16:53:18 +1000
>If the RC church managed to ride the wave with the big mega corps
>and regain extra-territoriality status for their churches they might
>have it again, but that would also mean that any other religious
>organisation could claim extraterritorial status. So, maybe in some

That's not necessarily true; that's like saying that all businesses can
have extraterritorial status because the megacorporations have it.

Sure, some religious institutions other than the RC church might qualify
for extraterritoriality, but I doubt it. (Well, maybe the Scientologists
have enough money...) That said, however, that doesn't exclude the RC
church from being extraterritorial.

Lady Jestyr

- Eagles may soar, but turkeys don't get sucked into jet engines. -
jestyr@*******.com.au URL: http://www.geocities.com/~jestyr
Message no. 12
From: Smilin' Ted <Tuvyah@***.COM>
Subject: Re: Religious Territories(Re: Awakened Papacy and Middle East)
Date: Sun, 20 Sep 1998 10:43:29 EDT
I'm not going to include the snippage, because everything by this point's too
deeply embedded. I will just make a couple of minor points here.

The first is that the Roman Catholic Church hasn't been able to grant the
right of Sanctuary since (IIRC) the Middle Ages. When it was able to do this,
that right was philosophically different from the extraterritoriality of an
embassy. Sanctuary applied to every church in the land because they WERE
churches, and temporal forces were assumed to have no power in the House of
God. The legal power that allowed the Church to grant sanctuary was the same
one that allowed it to impose the "Peace of God" on warring principalities,
forcing temporary cease-fires on holy days and so on.

Extraterritoriality, on the other hand, exists today because an embassy or
consulate is legally considered to be part of the nation that sent it. This,
and diplomatic immunity, is necessary to make sure that the host nation
doesn't get tee'd off at an ambassador and kill him or frame him.

So the Vatican still does have extraterritoriality, wherever it has an embassy
(as opposed to a church). However, it does not have the right of Sanctuary -
certainly not in the US, which has embraced the Separation of Church and
State.

The other point is that the Dalai Lama doesn't rule in Tibet anymore. The
Chinese do, and they're not leaving anytime soon. And even when the Dalai Lama
did rule, he couldn't provide Sanctuary any more than any other ruler could.

Maybe these are quibbles. I guess my main point is that Sanctuary and
Extraterritoriality are two different things, even though the result for a
fleeing shadowrunner would be the same. ;-)

Peace.
Smilin' Ted
Message no. 13
From: Smilin' Ted <Tuvyah@***.COM>
Subject: Re: Religious Territories(Re: Awakened Papacy and Middle East)
Date: Sun, 20 Sep 1998 10:53:50 EDT
Yes, the Roman Catholic Church -- i.e. the Vatican -- *does* have embassies
and consulates in other countries, which enjoy the same extraterritoriality
that other embassies do. (Their churches are *not* considered embassies.)

There is on-going friction between Israel and the Vatican because (among other
reasons) the Vatican embassy to Israel is in Tel-Aviv, and not Jerusalem.
Message no. 14
From: Martin Steffens <chimerae@***.IE>
Subject: Re: Religious Territories(Re: Awakened Papacy and Middle East)
Date: Sun, 20 Sep 1998 23:00:02 +0000
and thus did K in the Shadows speak on 19 Sep 98 at 3:35:

> My line of figuring is this way. If "the Vatican" is recognized as it's
own
> Nation-City-State, then it should have various ways to set up embassarial
> addresses throughout the world. It would be like wandering onto a national
> embassy.

It already has those in quite a few countries. I don't think they're
called embassies as such, something with Nunciature comes to mind.
Maybe it's Apostolic Nunciature of the Holy See of [Country name].

> Restrictions might be things like only one *recognized* embassy in any major
> nation, and *perhaps* one recognized embassy within the corporate offices of
> each major Megacorp (that is willing at least, going on the idea that a
> megacorporation is "semi-national-like status" as well). This would keep
> every church from becoming an embassy, and yet allow a few to suddenly aquire
> new status and potential authoritarial abilities/sovereignties (I know those
> are words, but I can't find the right words for what I mean here).

There can be only one! Embassy per country that is :). Extra ones are
called consulates and hardly number more than one or two. The
churches are owned by a church but not in a sense of complete
possession. It is still subject to a nation's laws. Like said before,
if the any church can pull of getting extra-territorial status it's
the RC church, since they qualify on all accounts.

> It would also, as someone else pointed out, be interesting from the POV of
> perhaps reclaiming some of it's rights and privileges that it lost or at least
> "ground" that it lost when the various Tir disputes and the Aztlan
> excommunication's occurred.

That can always happen to a church. If the German government finally
decides that the Church of Scientology is a subversive organisation,
it can confiscate all it's properties. Now think of those richly
decorated RC churches, and you can see that it's a tempting target
(or at least tax them).

> -K (who is really thinking strangely, must be the insomnia setting in)

Oh god, you too? I slept about two hours last night...

Martin Steffens
chimerae@***.ie
Message no. 15
From: Michael Coleman <mscoleman@********.NET>
Subject: Re: Religious Territories(Re: Awakened Papacy and Middle East)
Date: Sun, 20 Sep 1998 23:23:21 -0500
> The other point is that the Dalai Lama doesn't rule in Tibet anymore. The
> Chinese do, and they're not leaving anytime soon. And even when
> the Dalai Lama
> did rule, he couldn't provide Sanctuary any more than any other
> ruler could.
>
> Smilin' Ted
>
The Dalai Lama rules Tibet in 2060. Most of this thread was on possible
outcomes. In that the Pope and the Dalai Lama are temporal and spiritual
leaders, they could perhaps claim extraterritorial status for their churches
and temples.

Mike
Message no. 16
From: Smilin' Ted <Tuvyah@***.COM>
Subject: Re: Religious Territories(Re: Awakened Papacy and Middle East)
Date: Mon, 21 Sep 1998 12:54:34 EDT
In a message dated 9/20/98 8:49:11 PM, you wrote:

>The Dalai Lama rules Tibet in 2060.

Fair enough.

>Most of this thread was on possible outcomes. In that the Pope and the Dalai
>Lama are temporal and spiritual leaders, they could perhaps claim
>extraterritorial status for their churches and temples.

There were powerful economic and political reasons behind the megacorps'
extra-territorial status. I don't think the Pope or the Dalai Lama can muster
that kind of clout in 2060, and I don't see churches or temples getting such
status in any other way: Nations don't give up power without major incentives.
YMMV.

ST
Message no. 17
From: Steve Eley <sfeley@***.NET>
Subject: Re: Religious Territories(Re: Awakened Papacy and Middle East)
Date: Mon, 21 Sep 1998 13:26:32 -0400
Smilin' Ted wrote:
>
> There were powerful economic and political reasons behind the megacorps'
> extra-territorial status. I don't think the Pope or the Dalai Lama can muster
> that kind of clout in 2060, and I don't see churches or temples getting such
> status in any other way: Nations don't give up power without major incentives.
> YMMV.

Huh? You haven't seen _The Godfather, Part III_ have you? >8->

The Catholic church has ENORMOUS clout. You're talking about an
organization that owned half of Europe in the Middle Ages and had direct
influence over the other half. They're less influential now, yes, but
still strong. Today the Pope can meet with and advise world leaders
whenever he wishes, and most of South America, Europe and a large
proportion of the U.S. look to him above their elected leaders for
guidance. I can see the Pope losing *some* of that authority by 2060, but
the financial and political resources of the Church would still be
tremendous; enough to rival the largest megacorps, in influence if not in
assets.

As for the Dalai Lama -- are we all forgetting that according to the SR
timeline, Tibet's been completely closed off to the outside world by a
magical barrier, and no one (except apparently the President of Renraku)
has the ability to get inside? How do you compete with THAT clout?


Have Fun,
- Steve Eley
sfeley@***.net
Message no. 18
From: John E Pederson <pedersje@******.ROSE-HULMAN.EDU>
Subject: Re: Religious Territories(Re: Awakened Papacy and Middle East)
Date: Mon, 21 Sep 1998 12:42:35 -0500
Steve Eley wrote:

> As for the Dalai Lama -- are we all forgetting that according to the SR
> timeline, Tibet's been completely closed off to the outside world by a
> magical barrier, and no one (except apparently the President of Renraku)
> has the ability to get inside? How do you compete with THAT clout?

Ummm... it ain't exactly 'clout' if nobody ever comes or goes to get
or deliver your advice.

--
John Pederson otherwise known as Lyle Canthros, shapeshifter-mage
----------------------------------------------------------------------
"Everyone who is seriously involved in the pursuit of science becomes
convinced that a spirit is manifest in the laws of the universe -- a
spirit vastly superior to that of man, and one in the face of which we
with our modest powers must feel humble."
--Albert Einstein
lobo1@****.com canthros1@***.com pedersje@******.rose-hulman.edu
http://www.geocities.com/Area51/Lair/4864 ICQ UIN 3190186
"I'm not fifty!" "SPOONMAN!!!" Number Two -- with a bullet!
Message no. 19
From: Smilin' Ted <Tuvyah@***.COM>
Subject: Re: Religious Territories(Re: Awakened Papacy and Middle East)
Date: Mon, 21 Sep 1998 15:36:29 EDT
In a message dated 9/21/98 9:25:54 AM, Sfeley wrote:

>Smilin' Ted wrote:
>>
>> There were powerful economic and political reasons behind the megacorps'
>> extra-territorial status. I don't think the Pope or the Dalai Lama can
muster
>> that kind of clout in 2060, and I don't see churches or temples getting
such
>> status in any other way: Nations don't give up power without major
incentives.
>> YMMV.
>
>Huh? You haven't seen _The Godfather, Part III_ have you? >8->
>
>The Catholic church has ENORMOUS clout. You're talking about an
>organization that owned half of Europe in the Middle Ages and had direct
>influence over the other half. They're less influential now, yes, but
>still strong. Today the Pope can meet with and advise world leaders
>whenever he wishes, and most of South America, Europe and a large
>proportion of the U.S. look to him above their elected leaders for
>guidance. I can see the Pope losing *some* of that authority by 2060, but
>the financial and political resources of the Church would still be
>tremendous; enough to rival the largest megacorps, in influence if not in
>assets.

Well, there are different kinds of clout. The Church USED to have direct clout
in the Middle Ages. It could back up its demands with troops and the force of
excommunication. Now it is enormously wealthy, and it does have influence, but
both are declining and have been since the Reformation. It has had several
bank scandals, and it's currently taking a severe hit in popularity in Latin
America, where Evangelical Protestantism is making very strong inroads.

Even in the U.S., American Catholics are becoming more and more independent,
nor is the current Pope trying to bring them into the fold. Wedge issues like
gay rights and birth control could split the American Catholic community some
time in the next twenty years.

Add to this the SR timeline events like the Awakening of Catholic Ireland into
Tir na n'Og, the decimation of Europe (including Catholic Poland) in the Euro-
Wars, and the loss of much of Latin America to Amazonia and Aztlan, and you
have a series of MAJOR catastrophes for the Catholic Church.

IMO, the Church's power would be much reduced in the SR universe.

>As for the Dalai Lama -- are we all forgetting that according to the SR
>timeline, Tibet's been completely closed off to the outside world by a
>magical barrier, and no one (except apparently the President of Renraku)
>has the ability to get inside? How do you compete with THAT clout?

"Hmmm...they can completely shut off their country. We better listen to them!"
Not much clout. And while the Lama could offer sanctuary WITHIN Tibet, that's
the exact opposite of extraterritoriality, isn't it? ;-)

ST
Message no. 20
From: Sommers <sommers@*****.UMICH.EDU>
Subject: Re: Religious Territories(Re: Awakened Papacy and Middle East)
Date: Mon, 21 Sep 1998 15:58:56 -0400
At 03:36 PM 9/21/98 -0400, you wrote:
>>As for the Dalai Lama -- are we all forgetting that according to the SR
>>timeline, Tibet's been completely closed off to the outside world by a
>>magical barrier, and no one (except apparently the President of Renraku)
>>has the ability to get inside? How do you compete with THAT clout?
>
>"Hmmm...they can completely shut off their country. We better listen to
them!"
>Not much clout. And while the Lama could offer sanctuary WITHIN Tibet, that's
>the exact opposite of extraterritoriality, isn't it? ;-)

"Hmmm, they shut out an ENTIRE COUNTRY with a magic barrier that no one has
been able to cross. Nobody has been in or out, no satellite photos, human
intel, vacation pictures, nada. The only man to enter in the last 40 odd
years could only do so because a Great Dragon gave him a pass, and would
only do that after he was dead."

"What if I piss them off and they decide to use all of that obvious magical
power against me?"

Sommers
Homepage comming soon!
Message no. 21
From: Smilin' Ted <Tuvyah@***.COM>
Subject: Re: Religious Territories(Re: Awakened Papacy and Middle East)
Date: Mon, 21 Sep 1998 17:33:04 EDT
In a message dated 9/21/98 12:00:58 PM, Sommers wrote:

>"Hmmm, they shut out an ENTIRE COUNTRY with a magic barrier that no one has
>been able to cross. Nobody has been in or out, no satellite photos, human
>intel, vacation pictures, nada. The only man to enter in the last 40 odd
>years could only do so because a Great Dragon gave him a pass, and would
>only do that after he was dead."
>
>"What if I piss them off and they decide to use all of that obvious magical
>power against me?"

How, precisely, can you piss them off if you can't get to them?
Message no. 22
From: Erik Jameson <erikj@****.COM>
Subject: Re: Religious Territories(Re: Awakened Papacy and Middle East)
Date: Mon, 21 Sep 1998 18:34:21 -0400
At 03:36 PM 9/21/98 EDT, you wrote:

<MUCHO GRANDE SNIPPO>

Gotta back Ted's play in regards to the Catholic Church and their political
clout. Probably not got much in 2060. HOWEVER, they certainly do have a
power and strength and potentially in new areas...anyone remember the bit
from Martin and I regarding the "Catholic Librarian Commandos?" The
probably have a great deal of magical power, they just apparently have seen
fit not to use it.

>"Hmmm...they can completely shut off their country. We better listen to
them!"
>Not much clout. And while the Lama could offer sanctuary WITHIN Tibet, that's
>the exact opposite of extraterritoriality, isn't it? ;-)

Well, it would be clout if they weren't utterly isolationist. If they sent
messages out now and again, people might listen to them for whatever
reason. But as near as I can tell, they are totally closed off from the
rest of the world.

So what in the hell are all those monks doing? Anybody got enough info on
Tibetan Buddhism to make reasonable guesses as to what their deal is?

Erik J.


http://www.fortunecity.com/rivendell/dungeon/480/index.html
The Reality Check for a Fictional World
Message no. 23
From: K in the Shadows <Ereskanti@***.COM>
Subject: Re: Religious Territories(Re: Awakened Papacy and Middle East)
Date: Mon, 21 Sep 1998 19:16:37 EDT
In a message dated 9/20/1998 2:04:33 AM US Eastern Standard Time,
jestyr@*******.COM.AU writes:

>
> Sure, some religious institutions other than the RC church might qualify
> for extraterritoriality, but I doubt it. (Well, maybe the Scientologists
> have enough money...) That said, however, that doesn't exclude the RC
> church from being extraterritorial.

Okay, I've been out of it for a day or two now. Other than the RC centralized
in the Vatican, what other churches *might* have extraterritoriality in the
2060 range, assuming they decided to run themselvs somewhat closer to a
corporation, or were given certain levels of ability similar to
Megacorporations???

-K
Message no. 24
From: Sean McCrohan <mccrohan@*****.OIT.GATECH.EDU>
Subject: Re: Religious Territories(Re: Awakened Papacy and Middle East)
Date: Mon, 21 Sep 1998 19:33:04 -0400
K wrote:
> Okay, I've been out of it for a day or two now. Other than the RC centralized
> in the Vatican, what other churches *might* have extraterritoriality in the
> 2060 range, assuming they decided to run themselvs somewhat closer to a
> corporation, or were given certain levels of ability similar to
> Megacorporations???

Hmmm. Well, someone mentioned Scientology.... :)

--Sean
Message no. 25
From: Steve Eley <sfeley@***.NET>
Subject: Re: Religious Territories(Re: Awakened Papacy and Middle East)
Date: Mon, 21 Sep 1998 23:29:18 -0400
Sean McCrohan wrote:
>
> K wrote:
> > Okay, I've been out of it for a day or two now. Other than the RC centralized
> > in the Vatican, what other churches *might* have extraterritoriality in the
> > 2060 range, assuming they decided to run themselvs somewhat closer to a
> > corporation, or were given certain levels of ability similar to
> > Megacorporations???
>
> Hmmm. Well, someone mentioned Scientology.... :)


Except that by the 2050's they had renamed themselves the Universal
Brotherhood, and soon after showed their true forms... >8->


Have Fun, (but do NOT get me started on Scientology! Aaargh...)
- Steve Eley
sfeley@***.net
Message no. 26
From: Michael Coleman <mscoleman@********.NET>
Subject: Re: Religious Territories(Re: Awakened Papacy and Middle East)
Date: Tue, 22 Sep 1998 01:15:28 -0500
> >Smilin' Ted wrote:
> >>
> >> There were powerful economic and political reasons behind the
> megacorps'
> >> extra-territorial status. I don't think the Pope or the Dalai Lama can
> muster
> >> that kind of clout in 2060, and I don't see churches or temples getting
> such
> >> status in any other way: Nations don't give up power without major
> incentives.
> >> YMMV.
> >
> >Huh? You haven't seen _The Godfather, Part III_ have you? >8->
> >
> >The Catholic church has ENORMOUS clout. You're talking about an
> >organization that owned half of Europe in the Middle Ages and had direct
> >influence over the other half. They're less influential now, yes, but
> >still strong. Today the Pope can meet with and advise world leaders
> >whenever he wishes, and most of South America, Europe and a large
> >proportion of the U.S. look to him above their elected leaders for
> >guidance. I can see the Pope losing *some* of that authority by
> 2060, but
> >the financial and political resources of the Church would still be
> >tremendous; enough to rival the largest megacorps, in influence if not in
> >assets.
>
> Well, there are different kinds of clout. The Church USED to have
> direct clout
> in the Middle Ages. It could back up its demands with troops and
> the force of
> excommunication. Now it is enormously wealthy, and it does have
> influence, but
> both are declining and have been since the Reformation. It has had several
> bank scandals, and it's currently taking a severe hit in
> popularity in Latin
> America, where Evangelical Protestantism is making very strong inroads.
>
> Even in the U.S., American Catholics are becoming more and more
> independent,
> nor is the current Pope trying to bring them into the fold. Wedge
> issues like
> gay rights and birth control could split the American Catholic
> community some
> time in the next twenty years.
>
> Add to this the SR timeline events like the Awakening of Catholic
> Ireland into
> Tir na n'Og, the decimation of Europe (including Catholic Poland)
> in the Euro-
> Wars, and the loss of much of Latin America to Amazonia and
> Aztlan, and you
> have a series of MAJOR catastrophes for the Catholic Church.
>
> IMO, the Church's power would be much reduced in the SR universe.
>
> >As for the Dalai Lama -- are we all forgetting that according to the SR
> >timeline, Tibet's been completely closed off to the outside world by a
> >magical barrier, and no one (except apparently the President of Renraku)
> >has the ability to get inside? How do you compete with THAT clout?
>
> "Hmmm...they can completely shut off their country. We better
> listen to them!"
> Not much clout. And while the Lama could offer sanctuary WITHIN
> Tibet, that's
> the exact opposite of extraterritoriality, isn't it? ;-)
>
> ST
>

One of the reasons the Church has been losing influence is because the age
of miracles (the time depicted in the Bible) is over. Most People stop
believing in God when there is no visible proof of his existence. But this
has all change with the coming of the Sixth World. It isn't the same but it
is close enough. Many will see the Sixth World as the beginning of the "End
Time". And there is nothing like the coming of Armageddon to bring people
back to the Church to be saved. I mean there has been plague (VITAS) and
wars and I am sure there are plenty of "Anti-Christs" out there. I see all
these things greatly increasing the influence of the Church in the Sixth
World. A pulling together, an us "The Faithful" against them "The Satanic
forces of the world" mentality. Even today the world is a superstitious
place image what it would be like if all the superstitious came true.

Mike
Message no. 27
From: Smilin' Ted <Tuvyah@***.COM>
Subject: Re: Religious Territories(Re: Awakened Papacy and Middle East)
Date: Tue, 22 Sep 1998 02:15:02 EDT
In a message dated 9/21/98 2:37:05 PM, Erik J. wrote:

>Well, it would be clout if they weren't utterly isolationist. If they sent
>messages out now and again, people might listen to them for whatever
>reason. But as near as I can tell, they are totally closed off from the
>rest of the world.
>
>So what in the hell are all those monks doing? Anybody got enough info on
>Tibetan Buddhism to make reasonable guesses as to what their deal is?

They could easily just be farming, cooking, sculpting bodhisattvas out of yak
butter...you know, the things they were doing before the Chinese came in after
WWII. IIRC Tibet was ferociously isolationist when it was independent -- to
the extent that all foreigners were turned back or killed at the borders. One
of the earlier Lamas had prophesied that the arrival of foreigners would
signal the end of Tibet. (He's looking pretty smart, I'd say.) The SR 2060
ward could simply be a new and effective method of returning to the old ways.

Tibet was also a theocracy, with the highest cultural life centered around the
monastaries. I can easily imagine some eye-popping physads and metaplanar-
oriented magicians among the monks, who might see the metaplanes as stations
on the soul's journey through re-incarnation to enlightenment.

ST
Message no. 28
From: Robert Watkins <robert.watkins@******.COM>
Subject: Re: Religious Territories(Re: Awakened Papacy and Middle East)
Date: Tue, 22 Sep 1998 16:20:23 +1000
Michael Coleman writes:
> One of the reasons the Church has been losing influence is because the age
> of miracles (the time depicted in the Bible) is over. Most People stop
> believing in God when there is no visible proof of his existence.
> But this
> has all change with the coming of the Sixth World. It isn't the
> same but it
> is close enough. Many will see the Sixth World as the beginning
> of the "End
> Time". And there is nothing like the coming of Armageddon to bring people
> back to the Church to be saved. I mean there has been plague (VITAS) and
> wars and I am sure there are plenty of "Anti-Christs" out there.
> I see all
> these things greatly increasing the influence of the Church in the Sixth
> World. A pulling together, an us "The Faithful" against them "The
Satanic
> forces of the world" mentality. Even today the world is a superstitious
> place image what it would be like if all the superstitious came true.

If the game was set in 2015, I would buy this argument. However, the game is
set in 2050+. The world has had 30 or more years dealing with magic,
metahumans, dragons, VITAS, etc. Any such surge of religous belief would
have lost its impetus by now, and many such new converts would have left the
fold.

--
Duct tape is like the Force: There's a Light side, a Dark side, and it
binds the Universe together.
Robert Watkins -- robert.watkins@******.com
Message no. 29
From: Smilin' Ted <Tuvyah@***.COM>
Subject: Re: Religious Territories(Re: Awakened Papacy and Middle East)
Date: Tue, 22 Sep 1998 02:33:06 EDT
In a message dated 9/21/98 10:13:29 PM, mscoleman wrote:

>One of the reasons the Church has been losing influence is because the age
>of miracles (the time depicted in the Bible) is over. Most People stop
>believing in God when there is no visible proof of his existence. But this
>has all change with the coming of the Sixth World. It isn't the same but it
>is close enough. Many will see the Sixth World as the beginning of the "End
>Time". And there is nothing like the coming of Armageddon to bring people
>back to the Church to be saved. I mean there has been plague (VITAS) and
>wars and I am sure there are plenty of "Anti-Christs" out there. I see all
>these things greatly increasing the influence of the Church in the Sixth
>World. A pulling together, an us "The Faithful" against them "The
Satanic
>forces of the world" mentality. Even today the world is a superstitious
>place image what it would be like if all the superstitious came true.

Ummm...
When miracles become routine, they're no longer miracles. When a pruney
academic at MIT&M can pull off the same sort of water-walking as that
charismatic guy with the stigmata, than it isn't a divine wonder any more:
It's a stunt.

And the Catholic Church was at its strongest in the 13th century -- more than
a thousand years after the Apostles, and almost two thousand years after the
end of the Old Testament. I must take exception to the statement "Most People
stop believing in God when there is no visible proof of his existence." On the
contrary, history shows that Faith is strongest when there IS no proof, when
doubts are darkest. If that were untrue, there'd be no martyrs: They'd recant
as soon as it became clear that God was not going to save them.

ST
Message no. 30
From: Michael Coleman <mscoleman@********.NET>
Subject: Re: Religious Territories(Re: Awakened Papacy and Middle East)
Date: Tue, 22 Sep 1998 01:53:30 -0500
> In a message dated 9/21/98 12:00:58 PM, Sommers wrote:
>
> >"Hmmm, they shut out an ENTIRE COUNTRY with a magic barrier that
> no one has
> >been able to cross. Nobody has been in or out, no satellite photos, human
> >intel, vacation pictures, nada. The only man to enter in the last 40 odd
> >years could only do so because a Great Dragon gave him a pass, and would
> >only do that after he was dead."
> >
> >"What if I piss them off and they decide to use all of that
> obvious magical
> >power against me?"
>
> How, precisely, can you piss them off if you can't get to them?
>

Oh I don't know. Start underground nuclear testing near them and set off an
earthquake. Open a toxic waste dump next door. Poison the ground water or
air. The barrier must have some permeability. They need air, water, light
and ground to stand on. So just mess with the environment around their
territory.

Mike
Message no. 31
From: "Ratinac, Rand (NSW)" <RRatinac@*****.REDCROSS.ORG.AU>
Subject: Re: Religious Territories(Re: Awakened Papacy and Middle East)
Date: Tue, 22 Sep 1998 17:01:11 +1000
> > In a message dated 9/21/98 12:00:58 PM, Sommers wrote:
> >
> > >"Hmmm, they shut out an ENTIRE COUNTRY with a magic barrier that
> > no one has
> > >been able to cross. Nobody has been in or out, no satellite photos,
> human
> > >intel, vacation pictures, nada. The only man to enter in the last
> 40 odd
> > >years could only do so because a Great Dragon gave him a pass, and
> would
> > >only do that after he was dead."
> > >
> > >"What if I piss them off and they decide to use all of that
> > obvious magical
> > >power against me?"
> >
> > How, precisely, can you piss them off if you can't get to them?
> >
>
> Oh I don't know. Start underground nuclear testing near them and set
> off an
> earthquake. Open a toxic waste dump next door. Poison the ground
> water or
> air. The barrier must have some permeability. They need air, water,
> light
> and ground to stand on. So just mess with the environment around
> their
> territory.
>
> Mike
>
Well, okay, you can probably piss them off. So, being smart megas, you
don't. You just frag the rest of the world and the Tibetans smile and go
about their business being holy.

Oh, and how do we know that it was the TIBETANS who sealed Tibet off
from the rest of the world? Or that it was intentional? Or that anyone's
actually alive in there to piss off? Or that...

Doc'

.sig Sauer
Message no. 32
From: Michael Coleman <mscoleman@********.NET>
Subject: Re: Religious Territories(Re: Awakened Papacy and Middle East)
Date: Tue, 22 Sep 1998 02:57:28 -0500
> > K wrote:
> > Hmmm. Well, someone mentioned Scientology.... :)
>
>
> Except that by the 2050's they had renamed themselves the Universal
> Brotherhood, and soon after showed their true forms... >8->
>
>
> - Steve Eley

UB and Scientology are separate. I think "Free California" mention the two
having turf wars in California (before Chicago happened).

Mike
Message no. 33
From: Smilin' Ted <Tuvyah@***.COM>
Subject: Re: Religious Territories(Re: Awakened Papacy and Middle East)
Date: Tue, 22 Sep 1998 04:15:51 EDT
In a message dated 9/21/98 10:52:21 PM, Mike wrote:

>Oh I don't know. Start underground nuclear testing near them and set off an
>earthquake. Open a toxic waste dump next door. Poison the ground water or
>air. The barrier must have some permeability. They need air, water, light
>and ground to stand on. So just mess with the environment around their
>territory.

Tibet was virtually impossible to reach even BEFORE the barrier came into
existence. Why would anyone bother to travel all that way, traversing the Roof
of the World and enduring some of the harshest weather on the planet, just to
piss off the Tibetans? The only people who have been primitive and bloody-
minded enough to do this are the Chinese, and they're getting no joy from
their occupation. There are plenty of waste spaces on the planet available for
dumping and testing; doing it in the Himalayas is the height of expensive
masochism.

As for the barrier itself, the mere fact that Tibet could create this kind of
artifact doesn't argue for Tibetan power: ANY moderately advanced country,
from the UCAS through the Tirs to the NAN, has enough resources in the form of
magicians and mana to whip up something like this if they are determined
enough to do so. It's impressive to an individual group of runners, certainly;
but nations measure clout on a different scale. Clout is determined by
economic size, internal stability, predictability of foreign policy, military
power, technological ability, number and strength of allies, and so on. All of
these criteria are either miniscule or completely unkown in the case of Tibet.
Add to this its clear desire to be left alone, and TIbetan clout dwindles
(although its mystery, I admit, is way up there).

Smilin' Ted
Message no. 34
From: Steve Eley <sfeley@***.NET>
Subject: Re: Religious Territories(Re: Awakened Papacy and Middle East)
Date: Tue, 22 Sep 1998 09:41:33 -0400
Smilin' Ted wrote:
>
> As for the barrier itself, the mere fact that Tibet could create this kind of
> artifact doesn't argue for Tibetan power: ANY moderately advanced country,
> from the UCAS through the Tirs to the NAN, has enough resources in the form of
> magicians and mana to whip up something like this if they are determined
> enough to do so. It's impressive to an individual group of runners, certainly;
> but nations measure clout on a different scale. Clout is determined by
> economic size, internal stability, predictability of foreign policy, military
> power, technological ability, number and strength of allies, and so on. All of
> these criteria are either miniscule or completely unkown in the case of Tibet.
> Add to this its clear desire to be left alone, and TIbetan clout dwindles
> (although its mystery, I admit, is way up there).

Does anyone remember the post-module newssheet (I think it was from
_Bottled Demon_) that mentioned the "mountain-sized fire elemental" that
destroyed a train near Tibet in the early 2050's?

That doesn't measure on your scale of clout, but I'd call it significant.
Of course, the Great Ghost Dance doesn't register as "clout" by the
factors you mentioned either. (I'd certainly say it "argued for Native
American power.") >8->


Have Fun,
- Steve Eley
sfeley@***.net
Message no. 35
From: Sommers <sommers@*****.UMICH.EDU>
Subject: Re: Religious Territories(Re: Awakened Papacy and Middle East)
Date: Tue, 22 Sep 1998 11:26:24 -0400
At 04:15 AM 9/22/98 -0400, you wrote:
>Tibet was virtually impossible to reach even BEFORE the barrier came into
>existence. Why would anyone bother to travel all that way, traversing the
Roof
>of the World and enduring some of the harshest weather on the planet, just to
>piss off the Tibetans? The only people who have been primitive and bloody-
>minded enough to do this are the Chinese, and they're getting no joy from
>their occupation. There are plenty of waste spaces on the planet available
for
>dumping and testing; doing it in the Himalayas is the height of expensive
>masochism.

I agree with you that not too many groups of people, countries or corps are
going to go up there to piss them off for no particular reason. There's no
reason to go up there to dump toxic waste or something, you can always go
somewhere else. I think that for the most part that Tibet is going to be
left alone.

However, there are reasons to go up there. The Atlantean Foundation decides
that there is some magical dodad up there they need, they send a group to
get it. One of the Japanacorps figures out something about True Air and
that's the best place to get it. Ares invents some great fix all that needs
a specific kind of mineral only found there.

There's also the possibility that they decide that something someone has
done on the other side of the planet pisses them off. Tibet is
isolationist, but previous Dali Lahma's did talk to other people. There was
a Brad Pitt movie (Seven Years in Tibet) about a nazi teaching a kid Dali
Lahma about the world. Each of them is supposed to be the reincarnation of
previous ones, and know everything that the previous ones did.

Maybe they're not letting anyone in, but are still watchig what's going on
out here. And they don't like that Corp A is digging up this area of the
world. Or that Country B has decided that they want to irrigate an area
that is sacred. The problem is that you don't know what they're thinking of
in their bubble.

Not that many corps are going to worry about this. But it would suck if all
of the sudden one of those "mountain sized fire elementals" came down on
the Renraku Arcology.

>As for the barrier itself, the mere fact that Tibet could create this kind of
>artifact doesn't argue for Tibetan power: ANY moderately advanced country,
>from the UCAS through the Tirs to the NAN, has enough resources in the
form of
>magicians and mana to whip up something like this if they are determined

They might have the resources, but probably not the knowledge or ability to
coordinate it. In one of the history sections of the NAN they point out
that shortly after the NAN was formed, they couldn't agree on enough to get
another GGD. Not enough people. Tir Na Nog made the Veil, but its partly
technology and only dissorients. Tibet has a Physical Barrier of
ambiguously High Rating around the country.

That Tir na Nog can do a lesser version, and they have a lot of other
magical power, implies that for Tibet to pull of something bigger would
require them to have a lot of magical power also. Not conclusive by any
means, but logical. More logical than the have the magical power to put up
something like that and have it sustained, but can't do anything else.

>enough to do so. It's impressive to an individual group of runners,
certainly;
>but nations measure clout on a different scale. Clout is determined by
>economic size, internal stability, predictability of foreign policy, military
>power, technological ability, number and strength of allies, and so on.
All of

Not always. Iraq has a lot of clout right now in the foreign circles
because of unknown factors. It has very little economy right now, not much
technological ability, not many allies, and a high man/low trainign army.
But, they have stability from brutal repression, and unknown number of
chemical weapons, and were working towards nukes. Nobody, not even in the
government from many accounts, knows what Saddam will do next week. And he
can use his clout to keep some of the most powerful and advanced countries
in the world dancing around. If he didn't have some kind of clout would the
US or any of the other countries that have troops in the area keep them there?

>these criteria are either miniscule or completely unkown in the case of
Tibet.
>Add to this its clear desire to be left alone, and TIbetan clout dwindles

The problem is that no-one knows what Tibet wants or what they can do. In a
lot of minds that makes them dangerous, as they cannot be put into
predictions data that they do not have. That alone makes them a Threat to
certain groups.

Sommers
Homepage comming soon!
Message no. 36
From: Smilin' Ted <Tuvyah@***.COM>
Subject: Re: Religious Territories(Re: Awakened Papacy and Middle East)
Date: Tue, 22 Sep 1998 12:06:36 EDT
In a message dated 9/22/98 5:38:19 AM, sfeley wrote:

>Of course, the Great Ghost Dance doesn't register as "clout" by the
>factors you mentioned either. (I'd certainly say it "argued for Native
>American power.") >8->

Ummm, yeah, it does. Under "military power" -- especially considering it was
the first major use of magic in a world that still didn't understand its
potential. Nowadays, the UCAS military magicians might have something to do
about another Ghost Dance.

ST
Message no. 37
From: Nexx <nexx@********.NET>
Subject: Re: Religious Territories(Re: Awakened Papacy and Middle East)
Date: Tue, 22 Sep 1998 11:09:57 -0500
----------
> From: Smilin' Ted <Tuvyah@***.COM>
>
> Ummm, yeah, it does. Under "military power" -- especially considering it
was
> the first major use of magic in a world that still didn't understand its
> potential. Nowadays, the UCAS military magicians might have something to
say
> about another Ghost Dance.

I can tell you precisely what they would say: "Oh Shit." GGD level magic
is not going to be stopped by spell defense, and will probably break
through most single-digit rated wards. Remember, the GGD measures its
drain, not in mental drain, not in physical drain, but in number of
corpses of active, capable magicians. Its impressive as hell, and would
be used if they had to, but if you fire up the GGD, you're wasting too
many mages who could otherwise get a good nights sleep and then be blowing
people up again.

***************
Rev. Mark Hall, Bard to the Lady Mari
aka Pope Nexx Many-Scars
*
I am a rovin' sportin' blade
they call me Jack of all Trades
I always found my chief delight
in courting pretty fair maids.
-"The Dublin Jack of All Trades"
*
"Puritanism: the haunting fear that somebody, somewhere, might be having a
good time."
--H.L. Mencken
Message no. 38
From: Smilin' Ted <Tuvyah@***.COM>
Subject: Re: Religious Territories(Re: Awakened Papacy and Middle East)
Date: Tue, 22 Sep 1998 12:35:04 EDT
In a message dated 9/22/98 7:27:31 AM, Sommers wrote:

>However, there are reasons to go up there. The Atlantean Foundation decides
>that there is some magical dodad up there they need, they send a group to
>get it. One of the Japanacorps figures out something about True Air and
>that's the best place to get it. Ares invents some great fix all that needs
>a specific kind of mineral only found there.

I agree that these are reasons to go -- but these are primarily shadowrunner
reasons, not national or corporate ones, and the issue was one of national
clout, not the ability of a particular country to swat runners like insects.
I'll grant Tibet that, no contest.

>There's also the possibility that they decide that something someone has
>done on the other side of the planet pisses them off. Tibet is
>isolationist, but previous Dali Lahma's did talk to other people. There was
>a Brad Pitt movie (Seven Years in Tibet) about a nazi teaching a kid Dali
>Lahma about the world. Each of them is supposed to be the reincarnation of
>previous ones, and know everything that the previous ones did.

Actually, the whole point of the Barrier and Tibet's isolationism is that
there *isn't* a possibility that something on the other side of the planet
could piss them off. That's why the Barrier's there. And the previous Dalai
Lamas didn't talk to non-Tibetans unless the non-Tibetans actually got into
Tibet -- which is the central issue of "Seven Years".

>Maybe they're not letting anyone in, but are still watchig what's going on
>out here. And they don't like that Corp A is digging up this area of the
>world. Or that Country B has decided that they want to irrigate an area
>that is sacred. The problem is that you don't know what they're thinking of
>in their bubble.

Sure. Maybe they're doing this. But probably not. If you truly wanted some
influence on the outside world, which would you do: A. Close yourself off from
it entirely, guaranteeing that you have no friends, allies, or business
associates who might do you a favor in that world, or; B. Allow some contact,
so that some people in that world would have reasons (money, friendship,
patriotism) to help you influence it?

The Barrier is a message. It says "We don't care about you. Leave us alone.
We're leaving you alone." It's pretty fundamental.

>That Tir na Nog can do a lesser version, and they have a lot of other
>magical power, implies that for Tibet to pull of something bigger would
>require them to have a lot of magical power also. Not conclusive by any
>means, but logical. More logical than the have the magical power to put up
>something like that and have it sustained, but can't do anything else.

Or maybe it just means that Tir na n'Og doesn't want to cut off ALL contact
with the outside world -- that its citizens would still like electronics from
Japan, oil from the North Sea, hardwoods from Scandinavia, etc. etc.

>>enough to do so. It's impressive to an individual group of runners,
>certainly;
>>but nations measure clout on a different scale. Clout is determined by
>>economic size, internal stability, predictability of foreign policy,
military
>>power, technological ability, number and strength of allies, and so on.
>All of
>
>Not always. Iraq has a lot of clout right now in the foreign circles
>because of unknown factors. It has very little economy right now, not much
>technological ability, not many allies, and a high man/low trainign army.
>But, they have stability from brutal repression, and unknown number of
>chemical weapons, and were working towards nukes. Nobody, not even in the
>government from many accounts, knows what Saddam will do next week. And he
>can use his clout to keep some of the most powerful and advanced countries
>in the world dancing around. If he didn't have some kind of clout would the
>US or any of the other countries that have troops in the area keep them
there?

Clout is the ability to make others do what you want. Saddam wants sanctions
to be lifted; he ain't getting it. Saddam wanted Kuwaiti oilfields; he ain't
getting those either. Saddam wanted to be the Big Dog in the Gulf -- ask any
Saudi, Iranian, Omani, Kuwaiti, or Yemeni if they think he's top dog.

Saddam's ability to stall weapons inspection is really the only thing he CAN
do, and that's based more on a lack of will on the part of the Desert Storm
allies than it is on his own influence.

>The problem is that no-one knows what Tibet wants or what they can do. In a
>lot of minds that makes them dangerous, as they cannot be put into
>predictions data that they do not have. That alone makes them a Threat to
>certain groups.

Which goups are those? In which minds is Tibet more than a passing thought?

The bottom line is that clout has to be proactive and wide-ranging-- it's the
ability to influence others into do things you want on a broad spectrum of
issues, and at a wide range of levels. Despite bombs and hostage-taking,
terrorists don't have it -- they can't dictate national or economic policy.
The US does have it; despite its nuclear weapons, Russia does not.

Anyway, enough from me on this. Onward....

ST
Message no. 39
From: Smilin' Ted <Tuvyah@***.COM>
Subject: Re: Religious Territories(Re: Awakened Papacy and Middle East)
Date: Tue, 22 Sep 1998 12:51:46 EDT
In a message dated 9/22/98 8:13:30 AM, you wrote:

>I can tell you precisely what they would say: "Oh Shit." GGD level magic
>
>is not going to be stopped by spell defense, and will probably break
>
>through most single-digit rated wards. Remember, the GGD measures its
>
>drain, not in mental drain, not in physical drain, but in number of
>
>corpses of active, capable magicians. Its impressive as hell, and would
>
>be used if they had to, but if you fire up the GGD, you're wasting too
>
>many mages who could otherwise get a good nights sleep and then be blowing
>
>people up again.

It's like the clout American nukes gave the US in Vietnam -- i.e. none. A
weapon's not much good if you can't (or won't) use it.

ST
Message no. 40
From: Erik Jameson <erikj@****.COM>
Subject: Re: Religious Territories(Re: Awakened Papacy and Middle East)
Date: Tue, 22 Sep 1998 12:58:31 -0400
At 02:15 AM 9/22/98 EDT, you wrote:

>>So what in the hell are all those monks doing? Anybody got enough info on
>>Tibetan Buddhism to make reasonable guesses as to what their deal is?
>
>They could easily just be farming, cooking, sculpting bodhisattvas out of yak
>butter...you know, the things they were doing before the Chinese came in
after
>WWII. IIRC Tibet was ferociously isolationist when it was independent -- to
>the extent that all foreigners were turned back or killed at the borders.

Totally unglamorous, but probably very close to the truth. Well, FASA may
have something else in mind, but from what little I know of the Tibetan
people, it makes total sense that they'd simply return to their simple lives.

>Tibet was also a theocracy, with the highest cultural life centered around
the
>monastaries. I can easily imagine some eye-popping physads and metaplanar-
>oriented magicians among the monks, who might see the metaplanes as stations
>on the soul's journey through re-incarnation to enlightenment.

They'd probably be vaguely hermetic in flavor. Not necessarily traditional
Western style hermetics, but they don't seem to really fit into the
shamanic tradition at all. And there are probably some really ass-kicking
monks; well, there would have to be to raise that barrier (assuming it's
man-made and new).

Erik J.


http://www.fortunecity.com/rivendell/dungeon/480/index.html
The Reality Check for a Fictional World
Message no. 41
From: Anjo Verde <Chant_Obscur@*******.FR>
Subject: Re: Religious Territories(Re: Awakened Papacy and Middle East)
Date: Tue, 22 Sep 1998 20:01:06 +0200
-----Message d'origine-----
De : Erik Jameson <erikj@****.COM>
Date : mardi 22 septembre 1998 19:01
Objet : Re: Religious Territories(Re: Awakened Papacy and Middle East)

>At 02:15 AM 9/22/98 EDT, you wrote:
>
>Totally unglamorous, but probably very close to the truth. Well, FASA may
>have something else in mind, but from what little I know of the Tibetan
>people, it makes total sense that they'd simply return to their simple
>lives.

One evil thought :

In ED, Eastern dragons are called Cathay dragons. Guess what country
used to go by this name. Yep, Tibet. Now that might prove interesting,
especially if you consider the Dragons preview on FASA's ED page and
the comment made by Mountainshadow about a cathay council of
great dragons.
Now that gives plenty of run ideas and proves consistant with
the powerful and mysterious magics that seal Tibet off from the rest of
the world. After elven nations, could it be we now have a dragon land? >8-]

Anjo Verde
Message no. 42
From: Smilin' Ted <Tuvyah@***.COM>
Subject: Re: Religious Territories(Re: Awakened Papacy and Middle East)
Date: Tue, 22 Sep 1998 13:57:13 EDT
In a message dated 9/22/98 9:55:14 AM, Anjo Verde wrote:

> In ED, Eastern dragons are called Cathay dragons. Guess what country
>
>used to go by this name. Yep, Tibet. Now that might prove interesting,
>
>especially if you consider the Dragons preview on FASA's ED page and
>
>the comment made by Mountainshadow about a cathay council of
>
>great dragons.

Actually, IIRC Cathay was China, not Tibet.

ST
Message no. 43
From: K in the Shadows <Ereskanti@***.COM>
Subject: Re: Religious Territories(Re: Awakened Papacy and Middle East)
Date: Tue, 22 Sep 1998 14:06:44 EDT
In a message dated 9/22/1998 1:52:24 AM US Eastern Standard Time,
mscoleman@********.NET writes:

>
> > How, precisely, can you piss them off if you can't get to them?
> >
>
> Oh I don't know. Start underground nuclear testing near them and set off
an
> earthquake. Open a toxic waste dump next door. Poison the ground water or
> air. The barrier must have some permeability. They need air, water, light
> and ground to stand on. So just mess with the environment around their
> territory.
>
> Mike

Somehow, I doubt Mike that you have considered the territory around them
really well. That and just how hard it would be to do *any* of what you
suggest in such a way that would have a rapid enough effect to be utilizable.
That and the volume of territory that is encompassed within "such a boundary"
is easily survivable by great numbers of people for a VERY great amount of
time.

And *if* their magic is potentially that powerful, recycling air is -No-
Problem to them at all. Same for water, and generating *light*, even light
that is helpful to plant life and the kind, is not difficult to pull off with
magic.

As for polluting the ground water/native earth itself. That's the Himalayas,
and for some reason I don't see that is a really easy alternative. Especially
when their "ground water" could easily be snow melt off and the like, and
never have to dig a well if they so choose not to. Then when the poisoned
ground water starts working it's way southeastward (as the guys working on
plate tectonics have discovered), I'm sure some of *those* political
powers/corporate authorities would be more than angry and go looking into the
source(s) of said actions.

Tibetan Monks, actually, is this "Buddhism", could IMO opinion form up to meet
the standards of "Religious Extraterritoriality" that I am trying to get an
idea with. I'm also fairly certain that Islamic/Muslim religious ordinates
could garner this as well.

My reasoning for this I'm still working on, and will probably get back to you
folks with later.

-K
Message no. 44
From: Anjo Verde <Chant_Obscur@*******.FR>
Subject: Re: Religious Territories(Re: Awakened Papacy and Middle East)
Date: Tue, 22 Sep 1998 20:26:12 +0200
-----Message d'origine-----
De : Smilin' Ted <Tuvyah@***.COM>
Date : mardi 22 septembre 1998 20:02
Objet : Re: Religious Territories

>Actually, IIRC Cathay was China, not Tibet.
>
>ST

I may be wrong, but still the possibility is intriguing. Especially
when you know the only man allowed to visit Tibet (Aneki) was
granted the privilege by a great dragon.

Anjo Verde
Message no. 45
From: Erik Jameson <erikj@****.COM>
Subject: Re: Religious Territories(Re: Awakened Papacy and Middle East)
Date: Tue, 22 Sep 1998 15:46:36 -0400
At 08:01 PM 9/22/98 +0200, you wrote:

> In ED, Eastern dragons are called Cathay dragons. Guess what country
>used to go by this name. Yep, Tibet. Now that might prove interesting,
>especially if you consider the Dragons preview on FASA's ED page and
>the comment made by Mountainshadow about a cathay council of
>great dragons.

Um, no. Cathay is another name for China, not Tibet.

No dice this time.

Erik J.


http://www.fortunecity.com/rivendell/dungeon/480/index.html
The Reality Check for a Fictional World
Message no. 46
From: Martin Steffens <chimerae@***.IE>
Subject: Re: Religious Territories(Re: Awakened Papacy and Middle East)
Date: Wed, 23 Sep 1998 10:03:10 +0000
and thus did Erik Jameson speak on 21 Sep 98 at 18:34:

> Gotta back Ted's play in regards to the Catholic Church and their political
> clout. Probably not got much in 2060. HOWEVER, they certainly do have a
> power and strength and potentially in new areas...anyone remember the bit
> from Martin and I regarding the "Catholic Librarian Commandos?" The
> probably have a great deal of magical power, they just apparently have seen
> fit not to use it.

Naah, they're probably waiting for the anti-christ. Like I said
before, FASA isn't going to do anything with them because they keep
religion out of SR as much as possible. Just in the places they
couldn't ignore it they deal with it.

> Well, it would be clout if they weren't utterly isolationist. If they sent
> messages out now and again, people might listen to them for whatever
> reason. But as near as I can tell, they are totally closed off from the
> rest of the world.

The current Daila Lama travels all over the world. I watched him
speak on one occasion and I saw someone who was forced into politics
because he wants his country to return to it's previous status.
Tibet is/was/will be a Theocracy, and unlike the Vatican, they don't
give a toss about worldy affairs. As soon as the monks there display
signs of being able to use magic, they will remove the Chinese
influence, probably without using violence. To kill would mean
that the killer will be set back on his road to enlightment, and
this road to enlightment is what they live for. The barrier is a
typical sign of that peaceful approach: it keeps out aggressors
without the need for violence.
The foreigners who were killed when trying to enter, probably were
killed by angry farmers. I watched Tibetan monks rescue fish who
became trapped in a small drying up lake to improve their karma. In
SR terms these guys probably receive tens of points per week or so
:).

> So what in the hell are all those monks doing? Anybody got enough info on
> Tibetan Buddhism to make reasonable guesses as to what their deal is?

Nothing. They very likely consider all western trappings a burden for
the soul on it's path, so this barrier keeps out everything they
don't want: tv, cars, guns, simsense, etc. etc. Don't expect a matrix
system in that country, a runner finding a way in probably increases
the amount of electronics available by 500% or so.
They might keep an eye on affairs around them, since no-one said
or knows this barrier blocked two way traffic, but won't do many
dramatic things like a GGD, it's not their style. Maybe trying to
influence people to act more peaceful, by sending out emissaries like
they do now.

I have this suspicion that people who reached a certain stage on
their path will be allowed in, but I have no evidence. Also there are
going to be more monasteries around Tibet filled to the brim with
Westerners who study there, apart from the usual bunch of locals. I
doubt that many will be allowed to enter Tibet though...

BTW for those who are interested: In these areas it is quite common
for young children to go to a monastery until they're 16 or so. They
can then choose to stay or go back into the material world.

Martin Steffens
chimerae@***.ie
Message no. 47
From: Mike Bobroff <Airwasp@***.COM>
Subject: Re: Religious Territories(Re: Awakened Papacy and Middle East)
Date: Wed, 23 Sep 1998 09:07:03 EDT
In a message dated 9/21/98 4:35:28 PM US Eastern Standard Time, Tuvyah@***.COM
writes:

> >"Hmmm, they shut out an ENTIRE COUNTRY with a magic barrier that no one has
> >been able to cross. Nobody has been in or out, no satellite photos, human
> >intel, vacation pictures, nada. The only man to enter in the last 40 odd
> >years could only do so because a Great Dragon gave him a pass, and would
> >only do that after he was dead."
> >
> >"What if I piss them off and they decide to use all of that obvious
magical
> >power against me?"
>
> How, precisely, can you piss them off if you can't get to them?

Hmm, let's see, here's an advantage and disadvantage of being behind the Veil
of Tir na'Nog (on either side).

First, anyone attempting to perform a ritual to find someone and they are
inside the Veil, will fail, but the ritual team leader could have a chance to
figure out why they were stopped. In return, any ritual from inside the Veil,
without the proper materials, will also fail, but at the same time, they will
now that the individual / thing they are looking for is outside of the Tir
na'Nog. Either way in this case, the ritual will only let the Ritual Team

There is however a loophole to the above ritual thing. If the individual /
thing is lying within the Veil's boundaries itself, just sitting, with astral
watch by others outside of the Veil for an incoming ritual. The Veil would
stop the ritual, and the ritual team(s) would infer that the individual/thing
is on the other side of the Veil.

-Herc
------ The Best Mechanic you can ever have.
Message no. 48
From: Mike Bobroff <Airwasp@***.COM>
Subject: Re: Religious Territories(Re: Awakened Papacy and Middle East)
Date: Wed, 23 Sep 1998 09:12:12 EDT
In a message dated 9/21/98 5:36:35 PM US Eastern Standard Time, erikj@****.COM
writes:

> So what in the hell are all those monks doing? Anybody got enough info on
> Tibetan Buddhism to make reasonable guesses as to what their deal is?

I personally could see Tibetan monks as having an initiate organization of
Physical Mages making up the majority of their members.

-Herc
------ The Best Mechanic you can ever have.
Message no. 49
From: System Administrator <Wells@*************.COM>
Subject: Re: Religious Territories(Re: Awakened Papacy and Middle East)
Date: Thu, 24 Sep 1998 12:09:01 -0500
This message is in MIME format. Since your mail reader does not understand
this format, some or all of this message may not be legible.

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> Steve Collins commented thusly,
>
>Well I don't know for certain if they have Embasies here but I
know we do
>have an Emabsy there. Until last summer the US Ambassador to
the Vatican
>was former Boston Mayor Ray Flynn (He retired as ambassador to
run for
>Govenor in Massachusetts). Also when we were going after
Noriega in
>Panama back during the Regan Administration wasn't he hiding
out in the
>Vatican Emabsy while we were blasting rock music at him at 120
Decibels
>or something like that.

You are correct on the noriega thingy.....

------ =_NextPart_001_01BDE7DE.0B9ABA4C
Content-Type: text/html
Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

<!DOCTYPE HTML PUBLIC "-//W3C//DTD HTML 3.2//EN">
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<HEAD>
<META HTTP-EQUIV="Content-Type" CONTENT="text/html; =
charset=us-ascii">
<META NAME="Generator" CONTENT="MS Exchange Server version =
5.5.1960.3">
<TITLE>RE: Religious Territories(Re: Awakened Papacy and Middle =
East)</TITLE>
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<BODY>
<BR>
<BR>
<UL>
<P><FONT SIZE=1 FACE="Arial">Steve Collins</FONT>
<FONT =
COLOR="#0000FF" SIZE=2 FACE="Arial">commented
thusly,</FONT>
</P>

<P><FONT COLOR="#0000FF" SIZE=2
FACE="Arial">&gt;</FONT><FONT =
COLOR="#000000" SIZE=2 FACE="Arial">Well I don't
know for certain =
if they have Embasies here but I know we do</FONT>
<BR><FONT COLOR="#0000FF" SIZE=2
FACE="Arial">&gt;</FONT><FONT =
COLOR="#000000" SIZE=2 FACE="Arial">have an Emabsy
there. Until =
last summer the US Ambassador to the Vatican</FONT>
<BR><FONT COLOR="#0000FF" SIZE=2
FACE="Arial">&gt;</FONT><FONT =
COLOR="#000000" SIZE=2 FACE="Arial">was former
Boston Mayor Ray =
Flynn (He retired as ambassador to run for</FONT>
<BR><FONT COLOR="#0000FF" SIZE=2
FACE="Arial">&gt;</FONT><FONT =
COLOR="#000000" SIZE=2 FACE="Arial">Govenor in
Massachusetts). =
Also when we were going after Noriega in</FONT>
<BR><FONT COLOR="#0000FF" SIZE=2
FACE="Arial">&gt;</FONT><FONT =
COLOR="#000000" SIZE=2 FACE="Arial">Panama back
during the Regan =
Administration wasn't he hiding out in the</FONT>
<BR><FONT COLOR="#0000FF" SIZE=2
FACE="Arial">&gt;</FONT><FONT =
COLOR="#000000" SIZE=2 FACE="Arial">Vatican Emabsy
while we were =
blasting rock music at him at 120 Decibels</FONT>
<BR><FONT COLOR="#0000FF" SIZE=2
FACE="Arial">&gt;</FONT><FONT =
COLOR="#000000" SIZE=2 FACE="Arial">or something
like =
that.</FONT>
</P>

<P><FONT COLOR="#0000FF" SIZE=2
FACE="Arial">You are correct on =
the noriega thingy.....</FONT>
</P>
</UL>
</BODY>
</HTML>
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