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Message no. 1
From: S O'Neill callahan421@*******.com
Subject: Re (lots): Scythe/Weapon
Date: Tue, 20 Jun 2000 14:17:37 EDT
I'm hearing a lot of good, rational arguments on the list about why a
standard scythe would make such a crappy weapon. I can't disagree with these
arguments. I've used a scythe to cut grass, too, and it's heavy, awkward and
annoying to swing.

However, I had this thought, expanding a little on some of the suggestions
that the scythe be sharp on both sides, for instance . . . if I decided that
I wanted a unique weapon for my character that was BASED on a scythe, why
couldn't I just take the Pole Arms skill and work out a rationale for a
polearm that was really a 'combat scythe'. Balance the thing properly, maybe
put a spiky bit on the butt end for thrusting, rotate the blade so it's in
line with the haft, and make it polymer/metal, so you could parry with the
haft, if need be. You still get the look of a scythe without the problems.

You wouldn't fight with such a thing like you would with a pike or a halberd
or a more 'traditional' polearm, but within the limits of 'sharp bits on the
end of a long stick' fighting paradigm, I'd say you could adapt a fighting
style to use such an implement, focusing a lot on slashing and rotational
movements.

If the player wants to use an unmodified grass-cutting scythe in combat,
then by all means impose +TN in combat and make it as useless as you like.
But if a player wants to attempt something unique and interesting, and
appreciates the risk associated with highly 'Distinctive Looks' based on his
weapon, then I say more power to him.

Callahan.
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Message no. 2
From: Strago strago@***.com
Subject: Re (lots): Scythe/Weapon
Date: Tue, 20 Jun 2000 16:55:52 -0400
I remember back in the days when I took Karate, I went to a tournament and I saw
a rather interesting weapon: two scythes (sp?) attached by a length of chain.
The person demonstrating the weapon would twirl the chain around and around and
the scythes would cut into the air in front of him, slicing through imaginary
opponents' arms, legs, and necks. It was actually pretty damn cool. So I
borrowed that for one of my characters. We never got around to creating stats,
through. :( I called it the Whirling Scythes of Death and Destruction (tm). I
also never got to use it. :(

--
--Strago

All Hail Apathy! Or don't. Whatever. -abortion_engine

SRGC v0.2 !SR1 SR2+ SR3++ h b++ B- UB- IE+ RN+ SRFF W+ sa++ ma++ ad+ m+ (o++ d+)
gm+ M P
Message no. 3
From: James Mick sinabian@********.net
Subject: Re (lots): Scythe/Weapon
Date: Tue, 20 Jun 2000 17:04:50 -0400
Yeaouch! Talk about a great potential for damage...both to opponents and to
yourself. If I were GMing such a weapon I would HAVE to call in some kind of
variant on the monowhip rules... The results of a botch would be disastrous!
Still, definitely a cool weapon. I would personally recommend requiring that
the weapon be custom-built and that it be a specialization of the using
character... (I've set the same rules for other exotic weapons, like
bat'leths...)

>two scythes (sp?) attached by a length of chain.
Message no. 4
From: Jan Jaap van Poelgeest aka nevermelt jjp@******.nl
Subject: Re (lots): Scythe/Weapon
Date: Wed, 21 Jun 2000 00:40:21 +0200
Strago:

> I remember back in the days when I took Karate, I went to a tournament
and I saw
> a rather interesting weapon: two scythes (sp?) attached by a length of
chain.

Oh yeah, that's the weapon one of the tournament bosses in Budokan
(funky martial arts game from the early 90's) wields... lessee, what's
its name.

*does a quick websearch*

http://www.hst.newnanutilities.org/~eternia/Dojo/wpninfo.html

http://www.aloha.net/~deshi/kobudo__weapons_techniques.htm

These talk about the suruchin/surushin. Can't seem to find any pictures,
but this baddy doesn't sound like it has a blade. Incidentally the pages
are an interesting read on Okinawan (i.e: derived from farming tools)
weaponry... makes me want to go out and use a seemingly innocuous item
(teapot) to kill people.

Jan Jaap van Poelgeest, incurably psychotic
Message no. 5
From: Mike & Linda Frankl mlfrankl@***.com
Subject: Re (lots): Scythe/Weapon
Date: Tue, 20 Jun 2000 21:11:13 -0400
Strago pointed out:
> I remember back in the days when I took Karate, I went to a
> tournament and I saw
> a rather interesting weapon: two scythes (sp?) attached by a
> length of chain.
> The person demonstrating the weapon would twirl the chain around
> and around and
> the scythes would cut into the air in front of him, slicing
> through imaginary
> opponents' arms, legs, and necks. It was actually pretty damn cool. So I
> borrowed that for one of my characters. We never got around to
> creating stats,
> through. :( I called it the Whirling Scythes of Death and
> Destruction (tm). I
> also never got to use it. :(

I believe they have a couple of names. One name is the Kama. They can be
used with and without the chains. They do look like miniature scythes (with
straight poles, I think that a scythe has a slight back and forth curvature
to it). I also believe that Louis used one of them in "Interview with the
Vampire" towards the end. Perhaps a few people might want to break out the
DVD or VHS of it and watch the battle. Granted it is Hollywood, but it might
give some guidance.

;)

Smilin' Jack
Franklin Isshinryu School of Karate
http://msnhomepages.talkcity.com/RallyRd/mlfrankl/fiskhome.htm
Message no. 6
From: paul collins paulcollins@*******.com
Subject: Re (lots): Scythe/Weapon
Date: Wed, 21 Jun 2000 15:28:18 +1000
----- Original Message -----
From: Strago <strago@***.com>
To: <shadowrn@*********.com>
Sent: Wednesday, June 21, 2000 6:55 AM
Subject: Re: Re (lots): Scythe/Weapon


> I remember back in the days when I took Karate, I went to a tournament and
I saw
> a rather interesting weapon: two scythes (sp?) attached by a length of
chain.
> The person demonstrating the weapon would twirl the chain around and
around and
> the scythes would cut into the air in front of him, slicing through
imaginary
> opponents' arms, legs, and necks. It was actually pretty damn cool. So I
> borrowed that for one of my characters. We never got around to creating
stats,
> through. :( I called it the Whirling Scythes of Death and Destruction
(tm). I
> also never got to use it. :(
>
> --


What you're describing sounds similar to the Okinowan Kusari Gama, but the
KG has only 1 blade (And a weight on the other end of the chain). From
memory (Damn moving, everything is still in boxes) there is a (Northern?)
Chinese weapon used by the Shao Lin monks that's sounds like what you saw.
As for stats. there was a book ages ago called something like ninja's and
super spies or somesuch that I think paladium brought out. It must have had
the most complete listing of all martial arts styles and weapons in a game
setting that I have ever seen. (Maybe I'll find it soon :o) )

Annachie.



Understanding is a 3 edged sword
Message no. 7
From: Yiannakos yiannako@*******.edu
Subject: Re (lots): Scythe/Weapon
Date: Wed, 21 Jun 2000 03:12:39 -0400
Mike & Linda Frankl wrote:

> I believe they have a couple of names. One name is the Kama. They can be
> used with and without the chains. They do look like miniature scythes (with
> straight poles, I think that a scythe has a slight back and forth curvature
> to it). I also believe that Louis used one of them in "Interview with the
> Vampire" towards the end. Perhaps a few people might want to break out the
> DVD or VHS of it and watch the battle. Granted it is Hollywood, but it might
> give some guidance.

IIRC (and I think I do, cause it was just on last week) it
was a regular, vanilla farm scythe that Louis used in the
theater. I thought it's effects in the movie were a little
overpowered. *shrug* Maybe it's a vampire thing.

---Dave ('s not here man)
Message no. 8
From: Rand Ratinac docwagon101@*****.com
Subject: Re (lots): Scythe/Weapon
Date: Wed, 21 Jun 2000 00:24:30 -0700 (PDT)
> I also believe that Louis used one of them in
"Interview with the Vampire" towards the end. Perhaps
a few people might want to break out the DVD or VHS of
it and watch the battle. Granted it is Hollywood, but
it might give some guidance.
>
> IIRC (and I think I do, cause it was just on last
week) it was a regular, vanilla farm scythe that Louis
used in the theater. I thought it's effects in the
movie were a little overpowered. *shrug* Maybe it's a
vampire thing.
> ---Dave ('s not here man)

Well, when you've got as much as 18 strength and
you're hitting someone who should have body 6 at best...

====Doc'
(aka Mr. Freaky Big, Super-Dynamic Troll of Tomorrow, aka Doc'booner, aka Doc' Vader)

S.S. f. P.S.C. & D.J.

.sig Sauer

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Message no. 9
From: Hahns Shin Hahns_Shin@*******.com
Subject: Re (lots): Scythe/Weapon
Date: Wed, 21 Jun 2000 04:03:12 -0500
Hmm, a Scythe as a weapon? Just to be ornery, I'll take the exact opposite
stance of most of the other repliers and post the virtues of using a Scythe
as a weapon. There have been actual documented accounts of a Scythe being
used as a weapon during peasant revolts in some such century (I can't
remember details). While being large and cumbersome, I think that polymer
plastics and monofilament can lighten the burden somewhat. I imagine that
it wouldn't be a swinging/stabbing weapon per se (as most polearms), but a
spinning, whirling weapon, similar to Shaolin staff/sectioned staff
fighting, using circular force and momentum rather than arm strength. Of
course, this is because I am influenced by the anthropomorphic
personification that is Death in the Discworld novels. At the risk of being
literary, from the novel _Mort_: "Although the scythe isn't pre-eminent
among weapons of war, anyone who has been on the wrong end of, say, a
peasants' revolt will know that in skilled hands it is fearsome. Once its
owner gets it weaving and spinning no-one - including the wielder - is quite
certain where the blade is now and where it will be next."
If the character was an adept, I see no reason why magic couldn't enhance
his skill and make scythe combat, something that obviously couldn't be done
IRL, a reality. Perhaps a special skill devoted only to Scythe combat? The
problem would be finding instructors to help him increase the skill...
perhaps only a couple of Tibetan monks or a sage in the middle of Tir na
Nog.
I also imagine a weapon that is concealable like Manny Calavera's
switchblade/scythe in Grim Fandango (granted, it wouldn't be as cartoony and
wouldn't fold up as small). As far as rules, I would allow the character to
carry a conceal 3 (when rectracted, otherwise not concealable), (Str)S
scythe that uses monowhip rules (if it spins, and your body is in the
way...). I would give it a reach of 1 (2 would be a bit generous, because
the scythe is held in the middle of the "stick"). I agree that it isn't a
practical weapon, but neither are Oral spurs, Monofilament whips, or Eye
guns... yet those weapons are in the cannon rules, so why not live on the
edge of fiction a little?

Sorry for the long post. :-P

Hahns
Message no. 10
From: Steve Collins einan@*********.net
Subject: Re (lots): Scythe/Weapon
Date: Wed, 21 Jun 00 07:18:09 -0500
On 6/21/00 4:03 am, Hahns Shin said:

{some snippage}
>I also imagine a weapon that is concealable like Manny Calavera's
>switchblade/scythe in Grim Fandango (granted, it wouldn't be as cartoony and
>wouldn't fold up as small). As far as rules, I would allow the character to
>carry a conceal 3 (when rectracted, otherwise not concealable), (Str)S
>scythe that uses monowhip rules (if it spins, and your body is in the
>way...). I would give it a reach of 1 (2 would be a bit generous, because
>the scythe is held in the middle of the "stick"). I agree that it isn't a
>practical weapon, but neither are Oral spurs, Monofilament whips, or Eye
>guns... yet those weapons are in the cannon rules, so why not live on the
>edge of fiction a little?
>
>Sorry for the long post. :-P
>
>Hahns
>

Well my point was never that the character should not be allowed to have
it if he really wanted it Just that the stats should be somewhere below a
Combat Axe in effectiveness.

I also assume that the player is going for some death symbolism and
therefore the "war scythe" you describe (which is really just another of
the many variants of a Pole Arm and should be treated as such) would not
have the same effect (I have never seen Death pictured with such an
impliment although I have seen a sickle used on occasion in place or a
scythe). The only difficulty would be to somehow explain where the
character has ever even seen a scythe forget learned to use one. I have
not seen one that would look right for at least 15 years (modern scythes
look more like a golf club with a serraded edge than anything else).

The one character background I can think of that makes sense is is
something like this. He grew up in an anti technological back to nature
type commune where they used traditional farming impliments instead of
modern farming techniques. At somepoint in his teen years some Corp
decided that there is something on the communes land that they want. The
people of the commune are not willing to sell the land and so the corp
sends in a strike team to kill everyone off. Our hero is the only one to
survive the assault (think the beginning of Beastmaster) and his Physical
Adept abilities manifest. He adopts an avenging angel of death persona
with a goal of destroying all those who use technology to oppress the
people and takes up as a weapon the tools and instruments most familliar
to him. In the right campaign setting this character can work very well
and could be a lot of fun to play the problem is that in most campaign
settings it would work better as a sometimes enemy, sometimes friend
recurring NPC than an everyday PC. Lets face it he's going to have a hard
time getting along with the Street Sam who is a borderline cyberzombie
and as has been pointed out before if he shows up at meets with his
"weapon" traditional shadowrunner work (at least the paying stuff) is
going to be pretty hard to get and his code of ethics isn't going to make
it much easier as the Johnson hiring him would be just as bad in his eyes
as the target of his run in most cases.

Steve
Message no. 11
From: Dan Grabon djmoose@******.kornet.net
Subject: Re (lots): Scythe/Weapon
Date: Wed, 21 Jun 2000 23:22:54 +0900
On 6/21/00 9:18 PM, Steve Collins at einan@*********.net wrote:

[snip]
> scythe). The only difficulty would be to somehow explain where the
> character has ever even seen a scythe forget learned to use one. I have
> not seen one that would look right for at least 15 years (modern scythes
> look more like a golf club with a serraded edge than anything else).
We have one of those at home. I've always wanted to whack golf balls with
it just to see what would happen. :)

> The one character background I can think of that makes sense is is
> something like this. He grew up in an anti technological back to nature
> type commune where they used traditional farming impliments instead of
> modern farming techniques. At somepoint in his teen years some Corp
[primo snippage]

Referencing this and the previous bit... what's to say he didn't just come
from some part of the world where such farm implements are still in use?
They're still around in many places now, and even 60-odd years down the road
I'm sure they still will be.

Here in my city in Korea, the grassy embankment next to the highway is
periodically trimmed by a horde of old men and women armed primarily with
hand sickles. Oh, sure, there's a weed wacker here and there, and this time
around they actually had a motorized push mower or two, but the grand
majority just use hand sickles and other simple tools. Now, I don't live in
an area with any wheat/grass fields so I haven't seen any sickles, but I
wouldn't be surprised if they see use. Most farmwork here is done by hand
or with fairly small-scale machinery. The primary reason is the fields and
paddies just aren't big enough for huge combines and tractors. Also, owners
of small farms can't afford such equipment.

I'm quite sure this situation isn't peculiar to Korea... surely other
countries still have lots of use for traditional farming implements. You
could have the character come from such a place and work out the background
from there.

Alternatively, the guy could be from a regular sprawl but just have some
twisted fascination with death, prompting him to construct (or commission)
his own scythe. Stranger things have happened. :)

-moose

---
Dan "Moose" Grabon - djmoose@******.kornet.net
I would sell my soul for Hello Kitty in a kimono.
--Spiff
Message no. 12
From: James Mick sinabian@********.net
Subject: Re (lots): Scythe/Weapon
Date: Wed, 21 Jun 2000 13:08:14 -0400
I don't know why I keep posting to this one, as I don't foresee anyone in my
groups ever using one...but! ::laughs:: I just did remember, yet ANOTHER
variation on the scythe weapon. Bear with me. When I was little, I LOVED
ninjas. I would draw them, do all I could to study them... You name it.
Anyway, one of the things I got was this toy ninja set that had a few
shurikens, a couple other things, AND... A shortened scythe with a blade
that could be folded down. With the blade folded the scythe would be about
the same size as, say, as stun baton, and could probably even be used as a
club if circumstances called for it. Now I know this isn't what the
character originally wanted, because it definitely isn't Grim Reaperish...
But I think this topic went off quite a few posts ago as far as that's
concerned.

Also, I remember another instance of the chained scythe weapon. The one with
only one blade and a weighted handle was used in Ninja Gaiden for the old
Nintendo system. It was the weapon of...::thinking:: the second boss? If not
second then third...it's been a while.


(even further OT) Anybody know of any plans to make another Shadowrun video
game? I think if N64 got ahold of it and did it in the style of Perfect Dark
it could have the potential to be quite a kickass game!!!
Message no. 13
From: Paul Paul@********.demon.co.uk
Subject: Re (lots): Scythe/Weapon
Date: Wed, 21 Jun 2000 20:55:21 +0100
James,

Mail me off-list, would you, with your exotic weapon rules (that is unless
anyone else is interested!). I've got a character who will use a bat'leth
(and dk'tagh), and my GM & I haven't got around to sorting the rules out
yet. It would be interesting to see another viewpoint.

Ta,

Smilin' Assassin (mailto:SmilinAssassin@********.demon.co.uk)

Never meddle in the affairs of cats, as they are subtle and will piss on
your keyboard.

> -----Original Message-----
> From: shadowrn-admin@*********.com
> [mailto:shadowrn-admin@*********.com]On Behalf Of James Mick
> Sent: 20 June 2000 22:05
> To: shadowrn@*********.com
> Subject: Re: Re (lots): Scythe/Weapon
>
>
> Yeaouch! Talk about a great potential for damage...both to
> opponents and to
> yourself. If I were GMing such a weapon I would HAVE to call in
> some kind of
> variant on the monowhip rules... The results of a botch would be
> disastrous!
> Still, definitely a cool weapon. I would personally recommend
> requiring that
> the weapon be custom-built and that it be a specialization of the using
> character... (I've set the same rules for other exotic weapons, like
> bat'leths...)
>
> >two scythes (sp?) attached by a length of chain.
>
>
>
>
Message no. 14
From: Grim Shear grim_shear@*******.com
Subject: Re (lots): Scythe/Weapon
Date: Thu, 22 Jun 2000 08:18:26 CDT
"paul collins" <paulcollins@*******.com> said:
>What you're describing sounds similar to the Okinowan Kusari Gama, but the
>KG has only 1 blade (And a weight on the other end of the chain).
<snip>
>there was a book ages ago called something like ninja's and super spies or
>somesuch that I think paladium brought out.
>Annachie.


Its listed in Rifts:Japan too.

/me grabs the book from the back corner of the closet

Kusari Gama:
1D10 or 2D4+2 SDC (I haven't thought of conversions)
W.P.:Chain

Grim Shear
"Ya... you do that..."
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