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From:	shadowrn@*********.com (shadowrun)
Subject:	re munchkins and how to deal with them
Date:	Sat Oct 6 13:40:01 2001

Message no. 1 >munchkins they..... they're....... everywhere

your situation could easily solve itself , allow the other
player to find out mr face is humanis through the street
some pro meta group informs them they hang out with humanis
scum )and that they are race traitors ... blah blah smack
smack much bleeding later mr face changes his alligiance or
finds out how the damage system works from the recieving end
.......troll style ,

dealing with munchkins depends on your style , sometimes the
guilty party knows no better than to try to survive the
system by abusing it to the max , the way to deal with them
is make it easy , too easy , give em baby runs , but put
things in that can kill if he doesn't think about his
actions ( make the star really tough , put traps into corp
sec , make reinforcements tough) , this changes the focus
of the adventure from fighting/ dealing to actually thinking
about what is gonna happen , this should move him closer
toward more thinking characters , if not be brutal , plain
simple other players may get a fudged roll every now and
then , the munchkin does not ,

the face munchkin is not the most common type normally it's
the combat monster munchkin , cut down on the power of his
actions , limit success to a specific degree , so
negotiation comes round and you set a run reward of say 10k
with 500 more per success to a max of say 4 success (12k)
limit what the face can talk his way out of some stories are
plausible other like "i need to go in now "<smile> just
don't win access , if he gives a good and innovative new
story to gain access then by all means let the runners in
they deserve it , but have the guards check up on them ( i
think they would ) ,

never forget simply becuase the NPC's are not controlled by
players doesn't make them idiots (unless it's rp), make them
ask probing questions of the face i mean the guys job is on
the line if he screws up , so he is gonna make sure that he
is doing the right thing

hope it helps

Kanniemeernie korperaal
"when the trees moves the army is coming , when there are
blinds in the undergrowth it is misdirection"SUN-TZU

From:	shadowrn@*********.com (Shiro BsquLadat)
Subject:	re munchkins and how to deal with them
Date:	Wed Oct 10 17:50:01 2001

Message no. 2 --- shadowrun <shadowrun@********.absa.co.za> wrote:
> dealing with munchkins depends on your style ,
> sometimes the
> guilty party knows no better than to try to survive
> the
> system by abusing it to the max , the way to deal
> with them
> is make it easy , too easy , give em baby runs , but
> put
> things in that can kill if he doesn't think about
> his
> actions ( make the star really tough , put traps
> into corp
> sec , make reinforcements tough) , this changes the
> focus
> of the adventure from fighting/ dealing to actually
> thinking
> about what is gonna happen , this should move him
> closer
> toward more thinking characters , if not be brutal ,
> plain
> simple other players may get a fudged roll every now
> and
> then , the munchkin does not ,
>
> the face munchkin is not the most common type
> normally it's
> the combat monster munchkin , cut down on the power
> of his
> actions , limit success to a specific degree , so
> negotiation comes round and you set a run reward of
> say 10k
> with 500 more per success to a max of say 4 success
> (12k)
> limit what the face can talk his way out of some
> stories are
> plausible other like "i need to go in now "<smile>
> just
> don't win access , if he gives a good and innovative
> new
> story to gain access then by all means let the
> runners in
> they deserve it , but have the guards check up on
> them ( i
> think they would ) ,
>
> never forget simply becuase the NPC's are not
> controlled by
> players doesn't make them idiots (unless it's rp),
> make them
> ask probing questions of the face i mean the guys
> job is on
> the line if he screws up , so he is gonna make sure
> that he
> is doing the right thing

Don't do that!By giving them milk runs spolles the fun
and make the players feel that they are at tthe mercy
of the GM with no control over their own actions!I
fyou have such a player in your group then learn from
him and use gis own tricks against him or read more
SR3 rules and you will find loopholes that you can
take advantage of!
DONT RESTRICT YOUR PLAYERS!
the point is to have fun and sattisfy everyone.In an
RPG the players come first.
And don't worry about the rest of the players:they
will catch up real quick and will like the power that
they will master!

====-It didn't look so big in paper!!!!
-Ideas grow,Shiro.Sometimes bigger than life!

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From:	shadowrn@*********.com (Zebulin Magby)
Subject:	re munchkins and how to deal with them
Date:	Wed Oct 10 18:40:01 2001

Message no. 3 -----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----
Hash: SHA1

"Shiro BsquLadat" <shirogr@*****.com> wrote:
>
> Don't do that!By giving them milk runs spolles the fun
> and make the players feel that they are at tthe mercy
> of the GM with no control over their own actions!I
> fyou have such a player in your group then learn from
> him and use gis own tricks against him or read more
> SR3 rules and you will find loopholes that you can
> take advantage of!
> DONT RESTRICT YOUR PLAYERS!
> the point is to have fun and sattisfy everyone.In an
> RPG the players come first.
> And don't worry about the rest of the players:they
> will catch up real quick and will like the power that
> they will master!
>

Milk runs do exactly the opposite...I find they tend to make my
players *very* paranoid. "What, all I have to do is cross the street
and you're going to give me 10K¥ for that? What's the catch?"

As far as taking advantage of loopholes, I actually use the resident
munchkin to highlight those loopholes and discuss why my players
can't use Suppressive fire on a freaking window to get rid of the
targeting modifers.

Restricting the players? Not me... *egmg* but there are some things
that they cannot have without *hard* work. For example, they aren't
going to be getting their hands on a Banshee or Stonewall any time
soon, but that's because they need to *earn* it. (And I have yet to
play a game where they earned something like that.)

And finally, your comment about players coming first is patently
wrong. Sorry, pal, but in my game the first and foremost is the
story. That's why we have rules and GMs and players...without a story
your just rolling dice.

Oh, and one more thing, the last thing I want to do is have all my
players become munchkins. It's hard enough to get them to justify
what type of player they want (although I'm going to use someone's
idea nd make them give me a background that I'll create their
characters from.) let alone try to keep the power of the game to a
reasonable and playable level. (I mean, let's face it, once your
characters get to a certain point aka half owner of Renraku or
Yamatetsu, there's just no need for them to be shadowrunners anymore,
ya know?)

Besides: Power corrupts and absolute power corrupts absolutely. I
already have one player who bitches and whines if I tell him to play
something aside from an ex-special forces/cia/black ops type
character. (That's all he ever plays, he works it in somehow.)

Zebulin

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From:	shadowrn@*********.com (Wallace Blade)
Subject:	re munchkins and how to deal with them
Date:	Wed Oct 10 19:05:00 2001

Message no. 4 Zebulin said:
>Restricting the players? Not me... *egmg* but there are some things
>that they cannot have without *hard* work. For example, they aren't
>going to be getting their hands on a Banshee or Stonewall any time
>soon, but that's because they need to *earn* it. (And I have yet to
>play a game where they earned something like that.)

Yeap, just as I do. If you start telling a player "you can't do/own/get
that", the game reality looses a lot. I rather say "well, work to get it".

>Besides: Power corrupts and absolute power corrupts absolutely. I
>already have one player who bitches and whines if I tell him to play
>something aside from an ex-special forces/cia/black ops type
>character. (That's all he ever plays, he works it in somehow.)

And what's the problem with that?

Wallace Blade
Sepherim (Dagger in sperethiel)
"The Matrix was made to serve,
but only obeys those of us that love her."
Nodo 666: http://www16.brinkster.com/sepherim

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From:	shadowrn@*******.com (shadowrn@*******.com)
Subject:	re munchkins and how to deal with them
Date:	Thu Oct 11 00:50:00 2001

Message no. 5 > Zebulin said:
> >Besides: Power corrupts and absolute power corrupts absolutely. I
> >already have one player who bitches and whines if I tell him to play
> >something aside from an ex-special forces/cia/black ops type
> >character. (That's all he ever plays, he works it in somehow.)

Ooooh. Oh, gods. What an invitation. When he whips up his next character,
before you accept it take it home and rework it. Let him keep all his
skills, even at the level that he believes they're at -- but ...

Well, if you've ever played the 'Dreamchipper' module, you know exactly what
I'm suggesting. 'Lennie!' "I have no idea who you are talking about, lady."
'It's you, Lennie! Don't you know me? I'm your wife!!' Sure, he -thinks-
he's a CIA/Black Ops/ex-SpecForces asskicker, but he's actually a guinea pig
for a 'plug-and-play' supersoldier chip. Just get him to accept the
'mysterious cyberware' Flaw (worth, what, 6-8 points?) and you're home free.

> And what's the problem with that?
> Wallace Blade
> Sepherim (Dagger in sperethiel)

So says the man who thinks 'Sepherim' WOULD be 'dagger' in Sperethiel -- or
who would use a Sperethiel word as a street name. ;)

The Wyrm Ouroboros
'Half Russian mathemetician,
half Silicon Valley code freak.'

From:	shadowrn@*********.com (Shiro BsquLadat)
Subject:	re munchkins and how to deal with them
Date:	Thu Oct 11 08:15:01 2001

Message no. 6 --- Zebulin Magby <zebulingod@*****.com> wrote:
> As far as taking advantage of loopholes, I actually
> use the resident
> munchkin to highlight those loopholes and discuss
> why my players
> can't use Suppressive fire on a freaking window to
> get rid of the
> targeting modifers.

What's wrong with that?I find it a very good idea and
a rather logical one:you don't know if you can hit
something so you spray it with autofire and hope to
catch something!If they have the ammo to do it then
why not?

> Restricting the players? Not me... *egmg* but there
> are some things
> that they cannot have without *hard* work. For
> example, they aren't
> going to be getting their hands on a Banshee or
> Stonewall any time
> soon, but that's because they need to *earn* it.
> (And I have yet to
> play a game where they earned something like that.)

What do you specify as *earn it*? If they got the
money and/or a good plan to steal and keep one then so
be it!This is not D&D where you get most of your items
from pillaging (although this may vary from team to
team). In shadowrun a no karma character can go
toe-to-toe with an old timer with some carefull
planning and ideas.

> And finally, your comment about players coming first
> is patently
> wrong. Sorry, pal, but in my game the first and
> foremost is the
> story. That's why we have rules and GMs and
> players...without a story
> your just rolling dice.

And without players moving the story the way they want
it to we have drones.Mind so that I mean shaping the
story one way or another.If they don't like how things
turned out because they killed/be killed/messed around
and generally behaved like idiots then this is their
problem.
A piece of advise:Don't program stories with great
detail in advance!My best,most thrilling and funny
stories were those that the players shaped
themselves!And don't worry, they tend to get in enough
trouble without the GM's help!!

> Besides: Power corrupts and absolute power corrupts
> absolutely. I
> already have one player who bitches and whines if I
> tell him to play
> something aside from an ex-special forces/cia/black
> ops type
> character. (That's all he ever plays, he works it in
> somehow.)

Have you ever thought that maybe this is actually what
he likes to play?Maybe that's his favorite role. If he
likes it so much then why should he change it?The
point is to have fun doing something you can't normaly
do in real life.And if he works it in somehow then
this is in favor of him because he makes some good
backrounds in that field.I have a friend who plays
only full mages and we have a great time in our
stories because he is also a roleplayer and a
munchkin!So what's wrong with that?

====-It didn't look so big in paper!!!!
-Ideas grow,Shiro.Sometimes bigger than life!

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From:	shadowrn@*********.com (Shiro BsquLadat)
Subject:	re munchkins and how to deal with them
Date:	Thu Oct 11 08:35:01 2001

Message no. 7 --- WyrmOuroboros@***.com wrote:
> Ooooh. Oh, gods. What an invitation. When he
> whips up his next character,
> before you accept it take it home and rework it.
> Let him keep all his
> skills, even at the level that he believes they're
> at -- but ...
>
> Well, if you've ever played the 'Dreamchipper'
> module, you know exactly what
> I'm suggesting. 'Lennie!' "I have no idea who you
> are talking about, lady."
> 'It's you, Lennie! Don't you know me? I'm your
> wife!!' Sure, he -thinks-
> he's a CIA/Black Ops/ex-SpecForces asskicker, but
> he's actually a guinea pig
> for a 'plug-and-play' supersoldier chip. Just get
> him to accept the
> 'mysterious cyberware' Flaw (worth, what, 6-8
> points?) and you're home free.

This is the most ball-breaking thing I've ever heard
and the worst you can do for the moral of a beginning
character!
Before you resume being a GM (if you are one) then
read the BE KIND section in the SR3 rulebook!!And have
one to try something like this on you once and see if
you like being manipulated without knowing!!!!!
Now if the player actually agries on something like
this then it would really make a good story, but ONLY
if he agreed!!Not because of some stupid "otherwise
i'm not going to accept this character" blackmail!!
Pull a couple of these stunds and you will see how
quickly your stories become pleasant only to you!!
And I speak out of experience!!

====-It didn't look so big in paper!!!!
-Ideas grow,Shiro.Sometimes bigger than life!

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From:	shadowrn@*********.com (Kesh)
Subject:	re munchkins and how to deal with them
Date:	Thu Oct 11 09:15:01 2001

Message no. 8 On Wed, 10 Oct 2001 23:02:49 +0000, Wallace Blade wrote:

>Zebulin said:
>>Besides: Power corrupts and absolute power corrupts absolutely. I
>>already have one player who bitches and whines if I tell him to play
>>something aside from an ex-special forces/cia/black ops type
>>character. (That's all he ever plays, he works it in somehow.)
>
>And what's the problem with that?

Maybe the fact that it bugs Zebulin, and he's the GM? Honestly, the game
is about fun for everyone, including the GM, and when players keep
playing the same person over and over again it starts to get boring.

From:	shadowrn@*********.com (Graht)
Subject:	re munchkins and how to deal with them
Date:	Thu Oct 11 12:15:01 2001

Message no. 9 At 05:33 AM 10/11/2001 -0700, Shiro BsquLadat wrote:

>--- WyrmOuroboros@***.com wrote:
>
> > Well, if you've ever played the 'Dreamchipper'
> > module, you know exactly what
> > I'm suggesting. 'Lennie!' "I have no idea who you
> > are talking about, lady."
> > 'It's you, Lennie! Don't you know me? I'm your
> > wife!!' Sure, he -thinks-
> > he's a CIA/Black Ops/ex-SpecForces asskicker, but
> > he's actually a guinea pig
> > for a 'plug-and-play' supersoldier chip. Just get
> > him to accept the
> > 'mysterious cyberware' Flaw (worth, what, 6-8
> > points?) and you're home free.
>
>This is the most ball-breaking thing I've ever heard
>and the worst you can do for the moral of a beginning
>character!
>Before you resume being a GM (if you are one) then
>read the BE KIND section in the SR3 rulebook!!And have
>one to try something like this on you once and see if
>you like being manipulated without knowing!!!!!
>Now if the player actually agries on something like
>this then it would really make a good story, but ONLY
>if he agreed!!Not because of some stupid "otherwise
>i'm not going to accept this character" blackmail!!
>Pull a couple of these stunds and you will see how
>quickly your stories become pleasant only to you!!
>And I speak out of experience!!

The dreamchipper idea would go over great in the group I game with. After
the character found out that he was really Lennie, the player would
respectfully say to me, "You sick evil bastard." I would grin evily, and
we would go on with the game and the player would enjoy the hell out of
trying to figure out who had done this to his character, and try to figure
out whether the character wanted to keep the chip, or have it removed and
go back to being plain old Lennie. Different strokes, different folks :)

To Life,
-Graht
ShadowRN Assistant Fearless Leader II
--

From:	shadowrn@*********.com (Gurth)
Subject:	re munchkins and how to deal with them
Date:	Thu Oct 11 13:25:01 2001

Message no. 10 According to Shiro BsquLadat, on Thu, 11 Oct 2001 the word on the street was...

> > my players can't use Suppressive fire on a freaking window to
> > get rid of the targeting modifers.
>
> What's wrong with that?I find it a very good idea and
> a rather logical one:you don't know if you can hit
> something so you spray it with autofire and hope to
> catch something!If they have the ammo to do it then
> why not?

Agreed, I also don't see why you shouldn't be able to.

> What do you specify as *earn it*? If they got the
> money and/or a good plan to steal and keep one then so
> be it!

I think he means that earning a Banshee is pretty much having a good enough
plan to make enough money to buy one, or a good enough plan to steal one, and
then executing that plan properly. This as opposed to, "The Lone Star Banshee
drops down into the parking lot and you see ten guys pour out of it. The
engines remain running and the back door is open." "Hey, you can fit exactly
ten people into one, so they must have left the keys in the ignition. Let's
grab it!"

--
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If only it were almost easy.
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From:	shadowrn@*********.com (david lowe-rogstad)
Subject:	re munchkins and how to deal with them
Date:	Thu Oct 11 14:00:01 2001

Message no. 11 At 10:09 AM -0600 10/11/01, Graht wrote:

>The dreamchipper idea would go over great in the group I game with.
>After the character found out that he was really Lennie, the player
>would respectfully say to me, "You sick evil bastard." I would grin
>evily, and we would go on with the game and the player would enjoy
>the hell out of trying to figure out who had done this to his
>character, and try to figure out whether the character wanted to
>keep the chip, or have it removed and go back to being plain old
>Lennie. Different strokes, different folks :)
>

cool. i think we would enjoy the same game. i love having players
glare at me across the table, as things become clear, and mutter "i
f-ing hate you" under their breath. they seem to enjoy that.

on that note, when did the "dealing with munchkis" thread become "if
you try to restrict your players, you suck as a gm" thread? i'm
sorry, if i don't want PACs or Banshees in my game, the players
aren't getting them. period.

my issue is not the player who wants to make a kick-ass character or
have some serious hardware, it's the player who needs his or her
character to dominate the game over the gm and the over the other
characters.

example: i played in a game where my character was a street level
shaman with high charisma and other issues. our
psycho-lives-outside-the-rules-no-respect-for-others-chromed-to-the-teeth
character (i know it's a stretch, nobody ever encounters those types
in SR, but go with me), was always bitching about not having a dice
pool to defend against spells and not being able to shoot bullets
into enemy spirits, while i could control or dismiss them.
eventually, our gm gave him an artifact that allowed him to get a
magic rating, and thus all -spell-slinging to the above list. my gm's
response to me was, "well, you can get some cyber and combat skills,
too". sorry. f-that. why should i have to play a character i don't
want to just to keep up with another players abuse of the system?

long-winded, but i hope you get my point.
--
david lowe-rogstad
flash designer + developer
dlowe@****.com

From:	shadowrn@*********.com (Zebulin Magby)
Subject:	re munchkins and how to deal with them
Date:	Thu Oct 11 16:15:01 2001

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"Shiro BsquLadat" <shirogr@*****.com> wrote:
>
> What's wrong with that?I find it a very good idea and
> a rather logical one:you don't know if you can hit
> something so you spray it with autofire and hope to
> catch something!If they have the ammo to do it then
> why not?
>

Because the rules for Suppressive Fire specifically were designed to
suppress someone from moving through that area, not to get rid of the
target numbers for shooting something. (God, I could see it now:

HIM: I take out my sniper rifle and decide I want to Suppress his
head.
GM: You want to what?
HIM: I want to fire my rifle in Suppressive Fire, targetting the
meter of space that his head occupies.
GM: Um...no...

>
> What do you specify as *earn it*? If they got the
> money and/or a good plan to steal and keep one then so
> be it!This is not D&D where you get most of your items
> from pillaging (although this may vary from team to
> team). In shadowrun a no karma character can go
> toe-to-toe with an old timer with some carefull
> planning and ideas.
>

Earning means exactly that. If they plan something and manage to
actually steal a vehicle like that, great, more power to them. But
they can't just go out and buy one. As almost a side-note, in my
Universe, I've made the Rolls-Royce Phaeton an Uber-Elite limousine
for the rich and powerful. There are fewer than a dozen in North
America. The waiting list to be considered to buy one is about 6-8
months long. My players realise that getting one of them *intact*
would require more than it's worth, although I have had a player
actually legally acquire one through regular channels and he was damn
possessive of that vehicle once he got it. ("Hey! Get yer feet off
the upholstery, you damn trog!")

>
> And without players moving the story the way they want
> it to we have drones.Mind so that I mean shaping the
> story one way or another.If they don't like how things
> turned out because they killed/be killed/messed around
> and generally behaved like idiots then this is their
> problem.

I agree. And that's why I don't plan out my adventures more than just
an idea or three. ("Ooh, that looks neat, I wonder how I could work
in a haunted fog, a Wraith and a mystery all in one game?" *egmg* It
worked! heh heh heh)

>
> Have you ever thought that maybe this is actually what
> he likes to play?Maybe that's his favorite role. If he
> likes it so much then why should he change it?The
> point is to have fun doing something you can't normaly
> do in real life.And if he works it in somehow then
> this is in favor of him because he makes some good
> backrounds in that field.I have a friend who plays
> only full mages and we have a great time in our
> stories because he is also a roleplayer and a
> munchkin!So what's wrong with that?
>

Yes, I know that's what he likes to play. Yes, I know that's his
favorite role. Here's where I'm coming from though. There are certain
campaigns that his type of ex-Special/Black Ops/Forces just don't
work well with. For example, I wanted to play a Street Gang campaign.
He absolutely HATED it and decided ultimately not to play. (Something
that, in a group as small as mine, kills off the campaign real
quick.) Another was a campaign in which the characters started out
with 10% of the resources they chose, a kind of lower level start
from scratch campaign. Again, he detested that.

It's not only that that's the kind of character he is, but he plays
the character (all of them) as if they had no sense of
culpability(?). For example, if his character killed someone in broad
daylight, in full view of a bunch of witnesses and the police showed
up, *IF* he didn't try to kill the police, he'd get all upset because
he feels he didn't do anything wrong and I'm just out to get him.

And as far as I'm concerned, being a roleplayer and being a munchkin
are opposite sides of the spectrum. Your last comment there is kinda
contradictory in my view. *shrug*

Zebulin

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From:	shadowrn@*********.com (Zebulin Magby)
Subject:	re munchkins and how to deal with them
Date:	Thu Oct 11 16:30:01 2001

Message no. 13 -----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----
Hash: SHA1

"Shiro BsquLadat" <shirogr@*****.com> wrote:

<SNIP GREAT CONCEPT(tm)>

>
> This is the most ball-breaking thing I've ever heard
> and the worst you can do for the moral of a beginning
> character!
> Before you resume being a GM (if you are one) then
> read the BE KIND section in the SR3 rulebook!!And have
>

I have, several times even with my players. Let me tell you something
else that rulebook says:

Be Tough!
"Challenge the players." If they don't sweat for every Karma Point
and nuyen the earned, then you're not pushing them hard enough."

If I had to GM for a group that wanted to play some sort of
namby-pamby campaign where they didn't have to do much to get paid,
then I'd stop GMing _tomorrow_! Hell, I have a player who tells me
I'm not hard enough on them as it is. You know, I had a player who
once tried to refer to that section so I'd do what he wanted...

You know how that turned out? He pulled that exactly once and got up
in my face to argue that I wasn't being "Fair Enough" to him and that
he though I should go easy on his character. I told him to take a
long walk off a short pier...

> one to try something like this on you once and see if
> you like being manipulated without knowing!!!!!
> Now if the player actually agries on something like
> this then it would really make a good story, but ONLY
> if he agreed!!Not because of some stupid "otherwise
> i'm not going to accept this character" blackmail!!
> Pull a couple of these stunds and you will see how
> quickly your stories become pleasant only to you!!
> And I speak out of experience!!
>

Then the GM obviously didn't do his job correctly and work it in
somehow so it made sense. I've been thinking of doing something like
this to a player of mine, and I think we're both mature enough to
pull it off so it *works*.

*shrug*

Zebulin

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From:	shadowrn@*********.com (Shiro BsquLadat)
Subject:	re munchkins and how to deal with them
Date:	Thu Oct 11 17:25:01 2001

Message no. 14 --- david lowe-rogstad <dlowe@****.com> wrote:
> i love
> having players
> glare at me across the table, as things become
> clear, and mutter "i
> f-ing hate you" under their breath. they seem to
> enjoy that.

Have you ever asked them if they also like it?Some
players do appreciate some stability in their
lifes.This is why the GM should talk with the players
before pulling something like that.

> on that note, when did the "dealing with munchkis"
> thread become "if
> you try to restrict your players, you suck as a gm"
> thread? i'm
> sorry, if i don't want PACs or Banshees in my game,
> the players
> aren't getting them. period.

What are you afraid of?That one vehicle will
destabilize the game?There are plenty of way to bring
down a helicopter when you want to and is not that
powerfull a tool to begin with!And if the campaign is
totally inapropriate for big vehicles then it is going
to do more bad than good!What they are going to fly it
in the city and start blasting buildings?Yeah,right!!!

> my issue is not the player who wants to make a
> kick-ass character or
> have some serious hardware, it's the player who
> needs his or her
> character to dominate the game over the gm and the
> over the other
> characters.

> example: i played in a game where my character was a
> street level
> shaman with high charisma and other issues. our
>
psycho-lives-outside-the-rules-no-respect-for-others-chromed-to-the-teeth
>
> character (i know it's a stretch, nobody ever
> encounters those types
> in SR, but go with me), was always bitching about
> not having a dice
> pool to defend against spells and not being able to
> shoot bullets
> into enemy spirits, while i could control or dismiss
> them.
> eventually, our gm gave him an artifact that allowed
> him to get a
> magic rating, and thus all -spell-slinging to the
> above list. my gm's
> response to me was, "well, you can get some cyber
> and combat skills,
> too". sorry. f-that. why should i have to play a
> character i don't
> want to just to keep up with another players abuse
> of the system?

What you are telling me is not munchkinizing:it's that
the GM lacks the ability to say NO to a player who
wants something TOTALLY OUT of the ordinary and the
system.That is why you take or leave magic in the
begining.So that you have different abilities from the
other types.This player is not a munchkinizer but a
whinner!!I had a similar request once from an aspected
that wanted to astrally project but I refused to give
him the ability no matter who many karma he would
spend because it is a game-balansing mechanism.You
make your choices and you stick with them.

====-It didn't look so big in paper!!!!
-Ideas grow,Shiro.Sometimes bigger than life!

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From:	shadowrn@*********.com (Shiro BsquLadat)
Subject:	re munchkins and how to deal with them
Date:	Thu Oct 11 17:45:02 2001

Message no. 15 --- Zebulin Magby <zebulingod@*****.com> wrote:
> HIM: I take out my sniper rifle and decide I want to
> Suppress his
> head.
> GM: You want to what?
> HIM: I want to fire my rifle in Suppressive Fire,
> targetting the
> meter of space that his head occupies.
> GM: Um...no...

I seem to remember that suppresing fire requires
full-auto so what you're saying is not possible.

> Earning means exactly that. If they plan something
> and manage to
> actually steal a vehicle like that, great, more
> power to them. But
> they can't just go out and buy one. As almost a
> side-note, in my
> Universe, I've made the Rolls-Royce Phaeton an
> Uber-Elite limousine
> for the rich and powerful. There are fewer than a
> dozen in North
> America. The waiting list to be considered to buy
> one is about 6-8
> months long. My players realise that getting one of
> them *intact*
> would require more than it's worth, although I have
> had a player
> actually legally acquire one through regular
> channels and he was damn
> possessive of that vehicle once he got it. ("Hey!
> Get yer feet off
> the upholstery, you damn trog!")

What you're telling me here is what i'm objecting:ALL
SORTS of vehicles can be found in the black market for
the right price (if they don't want to steal one).
So you come back to what I was talking about before.

> Yes, I know that's what he likes to play. Yes, I
> know that's his
> favorite role. Here's where I'm coming from though.
> There are certain
> campaigns that his type of ex-Special/Black
> Ops/Forces just don't
> work well with. For example, I wanted to play a
> Street Gang campaign.
> He absolutely HATED it and decided ultimately not to
> play. (Something
> that, in a group as small as mine, kills off the
> campaign real
> quick.) Another was a campaign in which the
> characters started out
> with 10% of the resources they chose, a kind of
> lower level start
> from scratch campaign. Again, he detested that.
>
> It's not only that that's the kind of character he
> is, but he plays
> the character (all of them) as if they had no sense
> of
> culpability(?). For example, if his character killed
> someone in broad
> daylight, in full view of a bunch of witnesses and
> the police showed
> up, *IF* he didn't try to kill the police, he'd get
> all upset because
> he feels he didn't do anything wrong and I'm just
> out to get him.

That is exactly the behavior that should be
penalized.But here we are not talking about a specific
case (if that is what you thought then I apologize for
not making it clear).We are talking about an attitude
that I have seen in many GMs and that really spoils
the game.It usually is a sign of GMs who want a lot of
control over the players and I want to talk about
it.Maybe I am mistaken after all!!

> And as far as I'm concerned, being a roleplayer and
> being a munchkin
> are opposite sides of the spectrum. Your last
> comment there is kinda
> contradictory in my view. *shrug*

You should play with us some day!!

====-It didn't look so big in paper!!!!
-Ideas grow,Shiro.Sometimes bigger than life!

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From:	shadowrn@*********.com (Arclight)
Subject:	re munchkins and how to deal with them
Date:	Thu Oct 11 17:55:02 2001

Message no. 16 At 14:44 11.10.2001 -0700, Shiro BsquLadat wrote:

<snip>

>I seem to remember that suppresing fire requires
>full-auto so what you're saying is not possible.

Ok - he should use a HMG anyway, much more range ;)

<snip>

>What you're telling me here is what i'm objecting:ALL
>SORTS of vehicles can be found in the black market for
>the right price (if they don't want to steal one).
>So you come back to what I was talking about before.

I guess he meant that "i want a phaeton!!!! hey gm, roll for my
fixer!!!!!!!!"-attitude.

Arclight

From:	shadowrn@*********.com (Shiro BsquLadat)
Subject:	re munchkins and how to deal with them
Date:	Thu Oct 11 18:00:02 2001

Message no. 17 --- Zebulin Magby <zebulingod@*****.com> wrote:
> Be Tough!
> "Challenge the players." If they don't sweat for
> every Karma Point
> and nuyen the earned, then you're not pushing them
> hard enough."
>
> If I had to GM for a group that wanted to play some
> sort of
> namby-pamby campaign where they didn't have to do
> much to get paid,
> then I'd stop GMing _tomorrow_!

Hard doesn't mean restricting, or disallowing objects,
but greater challenges and more complex situations.And
for those the players need more equipment or whatever
equipment they seem fit.That is what i'm talking
about.

> Then the GM obviously didn't do his job correctly
> and work it in
> somehow so it made sense. I've been thinking of
> doing something like
> this to a player of mine, and I think we're both
> mature enough to
> pull it off so it *works*.

It's not only a question of maturity.It is also a
question of whether one wants the GM to screw with his
character or not.

====-It didn't look so big in paper!!!!
-Ideas grow,Shiro.Sometimes bigger than life!

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From:	shadowrn@*********.com (Shiro BsquLadat)
Subject:	re munchkins and how to deal with them
Date:	Thu Oct 11 18:10:01 2001

Message no. 18 --- Arclight <arclight@*********.de> wrote:
> I guess he meant that "i want a phaeton!!!! hey gm,
> roll for my
> fixer!!!!!!!!"-attitude.

so what?thats what the fixer is.The final prize will
reach for the stars but it is possible to get it that way.

====-It didn't look so big in paper!!!!
-Ideas grow,Shiro.Sometimes bigger than life!

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From:	shadowrn@*********.com (Wallace Blade)
Subject:	re munchkins and how to deal with them
Date:	Thu Oct 11 18:30:01 2001

Message no. 19 WyrmOuroboros said:
>So says the man who thinks 'Sepherim' WOULD be 'dagger' in Sperethiel -- or
>who would use a Sperethiel word as a street name. ;)

¿And whats the problem with that? ;) (note: I made up sepherim 'cause I
haven't found anywhere where it says how to say dagger, and as the street
name, well, why not?)

Wallace Blade
Sepherim (Dagger in sperethiel)
"The Matrix was made to serve,
but only obeys those of us that love her."
Nodo 666: http://www16.brinkster.com/sepherim

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From:	shadowrn@*********.com (Zebulin Magby)
Subject:	re munchkins and how to deal with them
Date:	Thu Oct 11 18:55:01 2001

Message no. 20 -----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----
Hash: SHA1

"Shiro BsquLadat" <shirogr@*****.com> wrote:
>
> --- Arclight <arclight@*********.de> wrote:
> > I guess he meant that "i want a phaeton!!!! hey gm,
> > roll for my
> > fixer!!!!!!!!"-attitude.
>
> so what?thats what the fixer is.The final prize will
> reach for the stars but it is possible to get it that way.
>

To quote a famous line:

"Not in my game you don't!"

There are some things that I just won't leave to chance. A fixer just
happening to have one of less than 12 Phaetons in all of NA is not
going to happen. Sure, I'm using a specific example, but it works.

For other things, like whether the player can get a Barrett or not,
I'll let the player take the fixer route. I just don't believe that
fixers have access to everything all the time. If they do, I'd be
questioning what my GM had up his sleeve...but then I think things
through when I play...my players usually don't.

Zebulin

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From:	shadowrn@*********.com (Zebulin Magby)
Subject:	re munchkins and how to deal with them
Date:	Thu Oct 11 19:00:02 2001

Message no. 21 -----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----
Hash: SHA1

"Shiro BsquLadat" <shirogr@*****.com> wrote:
>
> --- Zebulin Magby <zebulingod@*****.com> wrote:
> > HIM: I take out my sniper rifle and decide I want to
> > Suppress his
> > head.
> > GM: You want to what?
> > HIM: I want to fire my rifle in Suppressive Fire,
> > targetting the
> > meter of space that his head occupies.
> > GM: Um...no...
>
> I seem to remember that suppresing fire requires
> full-auto so what you're saying is not possible.
>

You haven't seen his sniper rifle...

>
> What you're telling me here is what i'm objecting:ALL
> SORTS of vehicles can be found in the black market for
> the right price (if they don't want to steal one).
> So you come back to what I was talking about before.
>

Refer to my previous response. Some vehicles cannot be found on the
black market because they're rare enough that it would bring down too
much heat or because they're basically one-of-a-kind. Some things my
players just won't be able to find without a lot more involved than:

PLAYER "I call up my fixer to see what he has."
GM: <rolls some dice> "You're in luck, you know that super powerful
Weapon of Mass Destruction you were looking for? He has three!"

Um, no...

(Please, keep in mind, I'm not talking about Ares Predators or Ingram
Smartguns here. I am talking about things that are really rare and/or
really expensive. For the longest time my players wanted laser
weapons, and when FoF came out everyone wanted a Firelance. They
eventually got them through lucky rolls ("Just how often can my fixer
make another attempt to find stuff?"). It quickly unbalanced the
game, and the players whined when the opposition began to be armed
with them, too.

(Make great mage-slayers, though. Mages don't have a barrier against
Light.)

>
> That is exactly the behavior that should be
> penalized.But here we are not talking about a specific
> case (if that is what you thought then I apologize for
> not making it clear).We are talking about an attitude
> that I have seen in many GMs and that really spoils
> the game.It usually is a sign of GMs who want a lot of
> control over the players and I want to talk about
> it.Maybe I am mistaken after all!!
>

It's not that I want to control my players actions. If that were the
case, I'd go back to writing. (Total control, that.) It's about
certain players wanting to overpower everyone else. They want to be
the center of attention, do whatever they want to whomever they want
with absolutely no repercussions.

Hell, if I didn't know any better, I'd liken it to the fact that the
player wants to have the power of the GM, but doesn't want to take
the time to actually GM. *shudder* (I know what kind of game he'd
run....ugh.

Zebulin

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From:	shadowrn@*********.com (Zebulin Magby)
Subject:	re munchkins and how to deal with them
Date:	Thu Oct 11 19:05:01 2001

Message no. 22 -----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----
Hash: SHA1

"Arclight" <arclight@*********.de> wrote:

>
> Ok - he should use a HMG anyway, much more range ;)
>

Actually, he's a bit upset at that too. Keeps making comments about
wanting to rewrite the range tables to reflect real life. Mumbles
something about sniper rifles having a range greater than 1 kilometer
(which I don't doubt).

> <snip>
>
> >What you're telling me here is what i'm objecting:ALL
> >SORTS of vehicles can be found in the black market for
> >the right price (if they don't want to steal one).
> >So you come back to what I was talking about before.
>
> I guess he meant that "i want a phaeton!!!! hey gm, roll for my
> fixer!!!!!!!!"-attitude.
>

Exactly.

Zebulin

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From:	shadowrn@*********.com (Arclight)
Subject:	re munchkins and how to deal with them
Date:	Thu Oct 11 19:05:04 2001

Message no. 23 At 15:08 11.10.2001 -0700, Shiro BsquLadat wrote:

> > I guess he meant that "i want a phaeton!!!! hey gm,
> > roll for my
> > fixer!!!!!!!!"-attitude.
>
>so what?thats what the fixer is.The final prize will
>reach for the stars but it is possible to get it that way.

I don't know about you, but I personally don't like to have my game f+cked
up because one of the players asked for something and the dice were on his
side. And as I don't like to cheat, I just decide for mayself if their
contact can sell the item asked for. I decide upon the description of the
contact given to me by the player, what that nsc can get and what he can't.
Sure, the players want fun. But as long as I don't get paid for
gamemastering, I'm supposed to have fun too ;)

Arclight

From:	shadowrn@*********.com (Steve Collins)
Subject:	re munchkins and how to deal with them
Date:	Thu Oct 11 19:15:01 2001

Message no. 24 ----- Original Message -----
From: Arclight <arclight@*********.de>
To: <shadowrn@*********.com>
Sent: Thursday, October 11, 2001 7:04 PM
Subject: Re: re munchkins and how to deal with them

> At 15:08 11.10.2001 -0700, Shiro BsquLadat wrote:
>
> > > I guess he meant that "i want a phaeton!!!! hey gm,
> > > roll for my
> > > fixer!!!!!!!!"-attitude.
> >
> >so what?thats what the fixer is.The final prize will
> >reach for the stars but it is possible to get it that way.
>
> I don't know about you, but I personally don't like to have my game
f+cked
> up because one of the players asked for something and the dice were
on his
> side. And as I don't like to cheat, I just decide for mayself if
their
> contact can sell the item asked for. I decide upon the description
of the
> contact given to me by the player, what that nsc can get and what he
can't.
> Sure, the players want fun. But as long as I don't get paid for
> gamemastering, I'm supposed to have fun too ;)
>
> Arclight
>
>

But you are missing half the fun in that situation. That Phaeton had
to come from somewhere, maybe when they stole it off the Johnson there
was some top secret corp data that could really frag with a lot of
people in a data chip that had fallen out of his pocket and was loged
between the seat cushions. Remember "Be carefull what you ask for, you
just might get it" is a GM's best friend.

Steve

From:	shadowrn@*********.com (Arclight)
Subject:	re munchkins and how to deal with them
Date:	Thu Oct 11 19:25:01 2001

Message no. 25 At 19:14 11.10.2001 -0400, Steve Collins wrote:

<snip>

>But you are missing half the fun in that situation. That Phaeton had
>to come from somewhere, maybe when they stole it off the Johnson there
>was some top secret corp data that could really frag with a lot of
>people in a data chip that had fallen out of his pocket and was loged
>between the seat cushions. Remember "Be carefull what you ask for, you
>just might get it" is a GM's best friend.

Well, but then I've to go through the painful procedure to do up new
characters with them...

Arclight

From:	shadowrn@*********.com (Wallace Blade)
Subject:	re munchkins and how to deal with them
Date:	Thu Oct 11 20:00:01 2001

Message no. 26 David lowe said:
>cool. i think we would enjoy the same game. i love having players
>glare at me across the table, as things become clear, and mutter "i
>f-ing hate you" under their breath. they seem to enjoy that.

yeap, in my campaing, there are lots of things the players don't know about
their characters. jejeje. ;)

>my issue is not the player who wants to make a kick-ass character or
>have some serious hardware, it's the player who needs his or her
>character to dominate the game over the gm and the over the other
>characters.

Yeap, those are the big problems. Muchs can give lots of hedaches to a
master and to the rest of the players. :(

>example: i played in a game where my character was a street level
>shaman with high charisma and other issues. our
>psycho-lives-outside-the-rules-no-respect-for-others-chromed-to-the-teeth
>character (i know it's a stretch, nobody ever encounters those types
>in SR, but go with me), was always bitching about not having a dice
>pool to defend against spells and not being able to shoot bullets
>into enemy spirits, while i could control or dismiss them.
>eventually, our gm gave him an artifact that allowed him to get a
>magic rating, and thus all -spell-slinging to the above list. my gm's
>response to me was, "well, you can get some cyber and combat skills,
>too". sorry. f-that. why should i have to play a character i don't
>want to just to keep up with another players abuse of the system?

I agree. When a master bends the rules, he must be very sure about it. Never
should he do it to let a player have what he wants and thus, leave out other
players. Shadowrun, as most rpgs, is a game of cooperation. If a player
doesn't get it, it's his problem, but the rest shouldn't suffer for it.
Don't you think?

Wallace Blade
Sepherim (Dagger in sperethiel)
"The Matrix was made to serve,
but only obeys those of us that love her."
Nodo 666: http://www16.brinkster.com/sepherim

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From:	shadowrn@*********.com (Wallace Blade)
Subject:	re munchkins and how to deal with them
Date:	Thu Oct 11 20:15:01 2001

Message no. 27 Zebulin said:
>Yes, I know that's what he likes to play. Yes, I know that's his
>favorite role. Here's where I'm coming from though. There are certain
>campaigns that his type of ex-Special/Black Ops/Forces just don't
>work well with. For example, I wanted to play a Street Gang campaign.
>He absolutely HATED it and decided ultimately not to play. (Something
>that, in a group as small as mine, kills off the campaign real
>quick.) Another was a campaign in which the characters started out
>with 10% of the resources they chose, a kind of lower level start
>from scratch campaign. Again, he detested that.
>It's not only that that's the kind of character he is, but he plays
>the character (all of them) as if they had no sense of
>culpability(?). For example, if his character killed someone in broad
>daylight, in full view of a bunch of witnesses and the police showed
>up, *IF* he didn't try to kill the police, he'd get all upset because
>he feels he didn't do anything wrong and I'm just out to get him.

Yeap, those are two big problems. My player have no feeling of guiltyness
neither, but if I try to catch them, at least they don't feel like I'm after
them unjustifiedly. :)

Wallace Blade
Sepherim (Dagger in sperethiel)
"The Matrix was made to serve,
but only obeys those of us that love her."
Nodo 666: http://www16.brinkster.com/sepherim

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From:	shadowrn@*********.com (david lowe-rogstad)
Subject:	re munchkins and how to deal with them
Date:	Thu Oct 11 20:35:01 2001

Message no. 28 At 2:25 PM -0700 10/11/01, Shiro BsquLadat wrote:
>Have you ever asked them if they also like it?Some
>players do appreciate some stability in their
>lifes.This is why the GM should talk with the players
>before pulling something like that.

they seem to keep showing up. with smiles on their faces, too. one of
my players even lamented to another "man, i want dave to fuck up my
character. nothing bad ever happens to me".

> i'm
> > sorry, if i don't want PACs or Banshees in my game,
>> the players
>> aren't getting them. period.
>
>What are you afraid of?That one vehicle will
>destabilize the game?T

yup. a banshee is a fraggin' TANK, and yes, my pcs rolling around in
a tank is not someplace i want to go. this is Shadowrun, not Ogre.
something like that is in serious danger of becoming the 800 lb
gorilla of the campaign, and it tends to limit my storytelling
creativity.no matter what i come up with, it still have to consider
that 800 lb gorilla over there looking at me. i don't like that.
besides, do banshees even come with air conditioning and a valet key?

<snip>

>What you are telling me is not munchkinizing:it's that
>the GM lacks the ability to say NO to a player who
>wants something TOTALLY OUT of the ordinary and the
>system.That is why you take or leave magic in the
>begining.So that you have different abilities from the
>other types.This player is not a munchkinizer but a
>whinner!!I had a similar request once from an aspected
>that wanted to astrally project but I refused to give
>him the ability no matter who many karma he would
>spend because it is a game-balansing mechanism.You
>make your choices and you stick with them.

my understanding it that is munchkinizing. when one player wants to
do or have something that totally overbalances the game and puts them
over and above all other players/npcs. or did i mis-understand
something. in any case, i don't follow the logic of "it's ok to
restrict some things, but if you pull the plug on others, you must
not be a very adept game master". my point is, is that if i don't
want to have to spend creative energy on working around a tank, or an
assault cannon, or something else that i feel will unbalance and
undermine my game, i shouldn't have to.

i agree that there are many different sides on this issue. i think
that you might not enjoy the way i game, but it sounds like there are
others on this list who would. i run very dense, storytelling
oriented games with very specific outcomes (at least they are
specific when i write them. they usually get totally screwed up once
the players get ahold of them), and yet, my players return every
wednesday night for more, so i must be doing something right.

d.
--
david lowe-rogstad
flash designer + developer
dlowe@****.com

From:	shadowrn@*********.com (Wallace Blade)
Subject:	re munchkins and how to deal with them
Date:	Thu Oct 11 20:35:04 2001

Message no. 29 Shiro said:
>What you're telling me here is what i'm objecting:ALL
>SORTS of vehicles can be found in the black market for
>the right price (if they don't want to steal one).
>So you come back to what I was talking about before.

Even if everything is available in the bvlack market, it's not available to
everybody, so you can always tell them that "sorry pal, but I can't get you
that, don't know the people" or "sorry chummer, don't wanna get into that
trouble" (in the mouth of the fixzer, of course).

Wallace Blade
Sepherim (Dagger in sperethiel)
"The Matrix was made to serve,
but only obeys those of us that love her."
Nodo 666: http://www16.brinkster.com/sepherim

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From:	shadowrn@*********.com (aaron b chappell)
Subject:	re munchkins and how to deal with them
Date:	Thu Oct 11 22:00:01 2001

Message no. 30 Hello all,

I usually just sit by and lurk but threads like this make me come out. I
use a rule in my campaign it goes a little bit like this (I modify this
rule to fit situations): You can get a hold of anything as long as you
are prepared to deal with the consequences of your possesion of (insert
campaign imbalancing item/service/contact here). Basically this practices
like "ok you can have the banshee but lone star will love to know who is
using that banshee on corp runs in seattle" and whatever you do is more
likely to be responded to with heavier force for instance if you hit ares
and come in with panther's and vindicators in full combat armor are they
gonna send second stringer after you? Not A Fraggin Chance!!!!! The more
power my players have accumulated (in one of my campaigns the standard
side arm for the team is a ruger thunder bolt and a long gun is either an
mpIII laser or a modified barret 121 overpowered yes do they need them on
a regular basis...YOU BETCHA) the more threats they face and the more
powerful the threats will be. So everything balances itself out.

"One for all and all for one if he's out of arms reach than go for your
gun"
Words to live by
Death on the Wind (TM)

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From:	shadowrn@*********.com (Holly Feray)
Subject:	re munchkins and how to deal with them
Date:	Thu Oct 11 22:55:01 2001

Message no. 31 Even if everything is available in the bvlack market, it's not
> available to
> everybody, so you can always tell them that "sorry pal, but I can't
> get you
> that, don't know the people" or "sorry chummer, don't wanna get into
> that
> trouble" (in the mouth of the fixzer, of course).
>

CJ a.k.a. Cowboy created an availability matrix for acquisition of items
based upon a contacts skills. This matrix settles any dispute over can X
be had in Y amount of time. I suggest you work out something similar.

Bandit <checking Sepherim's pockets w/o his knowledge for oreos.>
a.k.a. Holly
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From:	shadowrn@*********.com (Shiro BsquLadat)
Subject:	re munchkins and how to deal with them
Date:	Fri Oct 12 03:15:01 2001

Message no. 32 --- Zebulin Magby <zebulingod@*****.com> wrote:

> To quote a famous line:
>
> "Not in my game you don't!"
>
> There are some things that I just won't leave to
> chance. A fixer just
> happening to have one of less than 12 Phaetons in
> all of NA is not
> going to happen. Sure, I'm using a specific example,
> but it works.
>
> For other things, like whether the player can get a
> Barrett or not,
> I'll let the player take the fixer route. I just
> don't believe that
> fixers have access to everything all the time. If
> they do, I'd be
> questioning what my GM had up his sleeve...but then
> I think things
> through when I play...my players usually don't.

The fixer route is not exaclty that the fixer has it
but that the fixer can call someone that he knows a
guy who has a contact that could get it for you.That
is why the price will be double or triple than the one
in the shops.

====-It didn't look so big in paper!!!!
-Ideas grow,Shiro.Sometimes bigger than life!

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From:	shadowrn@*********.com (Shiro BsquLadat)
Subject:	re munchkins and how to deal with them
Date:	Fri Oct 12 03:20:01 2001

Message no. 33 --- Zebulin Magby <zebulingod@*****.com> wrote:

> > I seem to remember that suppresing fire requires
> > full-auto so what you're saying is not possible.
> >
>
> You haven't seen his sniper rifle...

There is a reason why sniper rifles don't have the
full-auto option in CannonCompanion and that is
because they have other advantages (long range,
accurancy, etc).
So what we are talking about is still not possible.

====-It didn't look so big in paper!!!!
-Ideas grow,Shiro.Sometimes bigger than life!

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From:	shadowrn@*********.com (Shiro BsquLadat)
Subject:	re munchkins and how to deal with them
Date:	Fri Oct 12 03:25:01 2001

Message no. 34 --- Arclight <arclight@*********.de> wrote:
> At 19:14 11.10.2001 -0400, Steve Collins wrote:
>
> <snip>
>
> >But you are missing half the fun in that situation.
> That Phaeton had
> >to come from somewhere, maybe when they stole it
> off the Johnson there
> >was some top secret corp data that could really
> frag with a lot of
> >people in a data chip that had fallen out of his
> pocket and was loged
> >between the seat cushions. Remember "Be carefull
> what you ask for, you
> >just might get it" is a GM's best friend.
>
> Well, but then I've to go through the painful
> procedure to do up new
> characters with them...

Or you get them to own favors to just about everyone
that can get them in serious trouble (and
adventure.The line is hazy here.)

====-It didn't look so big in paper!!!!
-Ideas grow,Shiro.Sometimes bigger than life!

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From:	shadowrn@*********.com (Shiro BsquLadat)
Subject:	re munchkins and how to deal with them
Date:	Fri Oct 12 03:25:05 2001

Message no. 35 --- Arclight <arclight@*********.de> wrote:
> I don't know about you, but I personally don't like
> to have my game f+cked
> up because one of the players asked for something
> and the dice were on his
> side. And as I don't like to cheat, I just decide
> for mayself if their
> contact can sell the item asked for. I decide upon
> the description of the
> contact given to me by the player, what that nsc can
> get and what he can't.
> Sure, the players want fun. But as long as I don't
> get paid for
> gamemastering, I'm supposed to have fun too ;)

I usually have fun with the trouble they get into with
all these <<neat>> toys ;)

====-It didn't look so big in paper!!!!
-Ideas grow,Shiro.Sometimes bigger than life!

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From:	shadowrn@*********.com (Shiro BsquLadat)
Subject:	re munchkins and how to deal with them
Date:	Fri Oct 12 03:35:01 2001

Message no. 36 --- david lowe-rogstad <dlowe@****.com> wrote:
> yup. a banshee is a fraggin' TANK, and yes, my pcs
> rolling around in
> a tank is not someplace i want to go. this is
> Shadowrun, not Ogre.
> something like that is in serious danger of becoming
> the 800 lb
> gorilla of the campaign, and it tends to limit my
> storytelling
> creativity.no matter what i come up with, it still
> have to consider
> that 800 lb gorilla over there looking at me. i
> don't like that.
> besides, do banshees even come with air conditioning
> and a valet key?

What I meant is that let them have it but I would love
to see them driving it in the city streets.I bet they
are toast within half an hour when the military comes!

> >What you are telling me is not munchkinizing:it's
> that
> >the GM lacks the ability to say NO to a player who
> >wants something TOTALLY OUT of the ordinary and the
> >system.That is why you take or leave magic in the
> >begining.So that you have different abilities from
> the
> >other types.This player is not a munchkinizer but a
> >whinner!!I had a similar request once from an
> aspected
> >that wanted to astrally project but I refused to
> give
> >him the ability no matter who many karma he would
> >spend because it is a game-balansing mechanism.You
> >make your choices and you stick with them.
>
> my understanding it that is munchkinizing. when one
> player wants to
> do or have something that totally overbalances the
> game and puts them
> over and above all other players/npcs. or did i
> mis-understand
> something. in any case, i don't follow the logic of
> "it's ok to
> restrict some things, but if you pull the plug on
> others, you must
> not be a very adept game master". my point is, is
> that if i don't
> want to have to spend creative energy on working
> around a tank, or an
> assault cannon, or something else that i feel will
> unbalance and
> undermine my game, i shouldn't have to.
>
> i agree that there are many different sides on this
> issue. i think
> that you might not enjoy the way i game, but it
> sounds like there are
> others on this list who would. i run very dense,
> storytelling
> oriented games with very specific outcomes (at least
> they are
> specific when i write them. they usually get totally
> screwed up once
> the players get ahold of them), and yet, my players
> return every
> wednesday night for more, so i must be doing
> something right.

I am not attacking or in any way accuzing you or your
storytelling capabilities!I just want to say that
putting barriers on what they get is not the ideal
way.I usually stick to letting them have what they
want and if they don't have the common sense to ask
for something that they can handle then the drek hits
the fan when they use it.See the example with the tank
above.The players get what they want but they must be
carefull where they use it. If the campaign is <<very
dense,storytelling oriented games>> or not is total
irrelevant: This is an attitute I'm trying to discuss
here.

====-It didn't look so big in paper!!!!
-Ideas grow,Shiro.Sometimes bigger than life!

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From:	shadowrn@*********.com (Shiro BsquLadat)
Subject:	re munchkins and how to deal with them
Date:	Fri Oct 12 03:40:01 2001

Message no. 37 --- Wallace Blade <decker_seph@*******.com> wrote:
> Even if everything is available in the bvlack
> market, it's not available to
> everybody, so you can always tell them that "sorry
> pal, but I can't get you
> that, don't know the people" or "sorry chummer,
> don't wanna get into that
> trouble" (in the mouth of the fixzer, of course).

Of course I can see your point but that is exactly the
kind of situation for which the rules on lowering
availability were created!With enough time and money
EVERYTHING can be bought (exept from unique items of
course.Someone somewhere will have it for the right price.

====-It didn't look so big in paper!!!!
-Ideas grow,Shiro.Sometimes bigger than life!

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From:	shadowrn@*********.com (Gurth)
Subject:	re munchkins and how to deal with them
Date:	Fri Oct 12 05:40:01 2001

Message no. 38 According to Zebulin Magby, on Fri, 12 Oct 2001 the word on the street was...

> > Ok - he should use a HMG anyway, much more range ;)
>
> Actually, he's a bit upset at that too. Keeps making comments about
> wanting to rewrite the range tables to reflect real life. Mumbles
> something about sniper rifles having a range greater than 1 kilometer
> (which I don't doubt).

So he wants to give sniper rifles a longer range than heavy machine guns?
Point out that you can use an M2 HB (a RL HMG) to snipe out to 2 km or so,
under the right conditions...

--
Gurth@******.nl - http://www.xs4all.nl/~gurth/index.html
If only it were almost easy.
-> NAGEE Editor * ShadowRN GridSec * Triangle Virtuoso <-
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From:	shadowrn@*********.com (Gurth)
Subject:	re munchkins and how to deal with them
Date:	Fri Oct 12 05:40:05 2001

Message no. 39 According to Shiro BsquLadat, on Fri, 12 Oct 2001 the word on the street was...

> There is a reason why sniper rifles don't have the
> full-auto option in CannonCompanion and that is
> because they have other advantages (long range,
> accurancy, etc).
> So what we are talking about is still not possible.

Only because the game rules forbid it. Realistically, there's no reason why a
sniper rifle couldn't be full-automatic (and, in fact, there are a few of
those IRL).

--
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From:	shadowrn@*********.com (Jane VR)
Subject:	re munchkins and how to deal with them
Date:	Fri Oct 12 08:25:01 2001

Message no. 40 >From: Shiro BsquLadat <shirogr@*****.com>
>I usually stick to letting them have what they
>want and if they don't have the common sense to ask
>for something that they can handle then the drek hits
>the fan when they use it.

Well, I can see this just degenerating into a big mess, with all the
characters ending up dead. And given how slow combat is, it might take 3
sessions to play out. And then the players are all pissed off because the GM
killed their characters. Why go there?

Jane

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From:	shadowrn@*********.com (david lowe-rogstad)
Subject:	re munchkins and how to deal with them
Date:	Fri Oct 12 14:40:01 2001

Message no. 41 At 12:25 PM +0000 10/12/01, Jane VR wrote:
>>From: Shiro BsquLadat <shirogr@*****.com>
>>I usually stick to letting them have what they
>>want and if they don't have the common sense to ask
>>for something that they can handle then the drek hits
>>the fan when they use it.
>
>Well, I can see this just degenerating into a big mess, with all the
>characters ending up dead. And given how slow combat is, it might
>take 3 sessions to play out. And then the players are all pissed off
>because the GM killed their characters. Why go there?
>
>Jane

seconded. i couldn't have said it better myself.

d.
--
david lowe-rogstad
flash designer + developer
dlowe@****.com

From:	shadowrn@*********.com (Derek Hyde)
Subject:	re munchkins and how to deal with them
Date:	Fri Oct 12 23:10:01 2001

Message no. 42 >
>Only because the game rules forbid it. Realistically, there's no reason
why >a sniper rifle couldn't be full-automatic (and, in fact, there are
a few of
>those IRL).

Ok mebbe this isn't the time or place to bring this question but perhaps
I'm just ignorant of real military weapons (although the janes gun
recognition guide beside me on the bookshelf isn't) could ya give me the
specific "fully auto sniper rifles" that you're talking about? (not
trying to discredit you but I've never heard of such a thing. The
concept behind why it wouldn't be possible is because of "muzzle rise"
aka. Multiple shot recoil. You can't hit something dead on target with
something that's capable of cooking off a spray of rounds with each
round (unless of course we're talking about something that was perhaps
welded to the top of the turret of a MBT so that the weight of the tank
could suck up 150% of the recoil) which is why the rules forbid it.
Also why you can't get burst fire, realistically it'd take an olympic
grade marksman to put all three rounds from an M-16 in the same spot on
burst fire and that's only .223 caliber(5.56mm), we're talking sniper
rifles here...that's .308(7.62mm), .30-06, .50, .357 and similarly large
high powered rounds with considerably more recoil.

Derek

From:	shadowrn@*********.com (Gurth)
Subject:	re munchkins and how to deal with them
Date:	Sun Oct 14 05:00:05 2001

Message no. 43 According to Derek Hyde, on Sat, 13 Oct 2001 the word on the street was...

> Ok mebbe this isn't the time or place to bring this question but perhaps
> I'm just ignorant of real military weapons (although the janes gun
> recognition guide beside me on the bookshelf isn't) could ya give me the
> specific "fully auto sniper rifles" that you're talking about? (not
> trying to discredit you but I've never heard of such a thing.

G3 SG/1 -- an above-accurate version of the G3A3 rifle fitted with an
adjustable trigger group and a telescopic sight, used by snipers of the
German armed forces (among others). It's not a "true" sniper rifle, in that
it wasn't built from the ground up as one, but most military sniper rifles
weren't until the 1980s.

> The concept behind why it wouldn't be possible is because of "muzzle rise"
> aka. Multiple shot recoil. You can't hit something dead on target with
> something that's capable of cooking off a spray of rounds with each
> round

You're confusing two things (it seems FASA might have been, too): "You
can't hit anything with such a weapon" with "It's technologically
impossible." It's perfectly feasible to build a fully-automatic sniper
rifle, but like you say, hitting your target with anything other than the
first bullet will be a little bit difficult. You could still use it for
suppressive fire if you really must, but IRL there are some very good
reasons to _not_ do this (wear on the rifle being the main one). In SR,
though, there's no real restriction that way, unless you count full-auto
fire as falling under the "combat situation" rules for the Ranger Arms SM-3.

--
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From:	shadowrn@*********.com (Derek Hyde)
Subject:	re munchkins and how to deal with them
Date:	Sun Oct 14 11:20:01 2001

Message no. 44 >According to Derek Hyde, on Sat, 13 Oct 2001 the word on the street
was...
>> Ok mebbe this isn't the time or place to bring this question but
perhaps
>> I'm just ignorant of real military weapons (although the janes gun
>> recognition guide beside me on the bookshelf isn't) could ya give me
the
>> specific "fully auto sniper rifles" that you're talking about? (not
>> trying to discredit you but I've never heard of such a thing.
>G3 SG/1 -- an above-accurate version of the G3A3 rifle fitted with an
>adjustable trigger group and a telescopic sight, used by snipers of the

>German armed forces (among others). It's not a "true" sniper rifle, in
that
>it wasn't built from the ground up as one, but most military sniper
rifles
>weren't until the 1980s.
>> The concept behind why it wouldn't be possible is because of "muzzle
>>rise" aka. Multiple shot recoil. You can't hit something dead on
target >>with something that's capable of cooking off a spray of rounds
with each
>> round
>You're confusing two things (it seems FASA might have been, too): "You
>can't hit anything with such a weapon" with "It's technologically
>impossible." It's perfectly feasible to build a fully-automatic sniper
>rifle, but like you say, hitting your target with anything other than
the
>first bullet will be a little bit difficult. You could still use it for

>suppressive fire if you really must, but IRL there are some very good
>reasons to _not_ do this (wear on the rifle being the main one). In SR,

>though, there's no real restriction that way, unless you count
full-auto
>fire as falling under the "combat situation" rules for the Ranger Arms
SM->3.

Ok you've got a point there but the thing is also that a fully auto
burst would also be fairly likely to give away your hidden position
which is definitely something that goes completely against sniping.

Oh and as far as the needing something for supressive fire, they're
usually carrying a pistol or something similar to the M4 Carbine if they
really need to toss rounds down range which is something that you
definitely should never be in the position that you've got to worry
about if you're doing your job right as a sniper (sneak up, take your
one shot, sneak to next point, take that shot, sneak home...if any
patrols are met hide and wait so as not to jeopardize the mission)

From:	shadowrn@*********.com (Paul J. Adam)
Subject:	re munchkins and how to deal with them
Date:	Sun Oct 14 15:10:01 2001

Message no. 45 In article <01101211252003.00576@***************>, Gurth
<Gurth@******.nl> writes
>Only because the game rules forbid it. Realistically, there's no reason why a
>sniper rifle couldn't be full-automatic (and, in fact, there are a few of
>those IRL).

I think you're talking about the L86A1 :)

--
Paul J. Adam

From:	shadowrn@*********.com (Gurth)
Subject:	re munchkins and how to deal with them
Date:	Mon Oct 15 05:25:01 2001

Message no. 46 According to Derek Hyde, on Sun, 14 Oct 2001 the word on the street was...

> Ok you've got a point there but the thing is also that a fully auto
> burst would also be fairly likely to give away your hidden position
> which is definitely something that goes completely against sniping.

If you're talking about the modern western style of sniping, yes. With
Russian-style sniping (that is, every company has a few snipers attached
who operate as part of infantry squads) then a full-auto capability can be
a very handy thing to have, because the sniper takes part in normal
infantry operations.

> Oh and as far as the needing something for supressive fire, they're
> usually carrying a pistol or something similar to the M4 Carbine

An M4 carbine with M203 grenade launcher is standard issue for the US
Army's spotters, IIRC.

--
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If only it were almost easy.
-> NAGEE Editor * ShadowRN GridSec * Triangle Virtuoso <-
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From:	shadowrn@*********.com (zixx)
Subject:	re munchkins and how to deal with them
Date:	Mon Oct 15 10:05:01 2001

Message no. 47 Gurth wrote:

> You're confusing two things (it seems FASA might have been, too): "You
> can't hit anything with such a weapon" with "It's technologically
> impossible." It's perfectly feasible to build a fully-automatic sniper
> rifle, but like you say, hitting your target with anything other than the
> first bullet will be a little bit difficult. You could still use it for
> suppressive fire if you really must, but IRL there are some very good
> reasons to _not_ do this (wear on the rifle being the main one). In SR,
> though, there's no real restriction that way, unless you count full-auto
> fire as falling under the "combat situation" rules for the Ranger Arms
> SM-3.

IIRC, one of the main reasons not to build FA sniper-rifles (or even
semi-autos) is the number of moving parts in the reciever. So you'd go with a
bolt-operated weapon, as it's more accurate.

Zixx

From:	shadowrn@*********.com (bluedragon7)
Subject:	re munchkins and how to deal with them
Date:	Mon Oct 15 11:55:01 2001

Message no. 48 > -----Original Message-----
> From: shadowrn-admin@*********.com
> [mailto:shadowrn-admin@*********.com]On Behalf Of zixx
> Sent: Monday, October 15, 2001 4:09 PM
> To: shadowrn@*********.com
> Subject: Re: re munchkins and how to deal with them
>
>
> Gurth wrote:
>
> > You're confusing two things (it seems FASA might have been, too): "You
> > can't hit anything with such a weapon" with "It's technologically
> > impossible." It's perfectly feasible to build a fully-automatic sniper
> > rifle, but like you say, hitting your target with anything
> other than the
> > first bullet will be a little bit difficult. You could still use it for
> > suppressive fire if you really must, but IRL there are some very good
> > reasons to _not_ do this (wear on the rifle being the main one). In SR,
> > though, there's no real restriction that way, unless you count full-auto
> > fire as falling under the "combat situation" rules for the Ranger Arms
> > SM-3.
>
> IIRC, one of the main reasons not to build FA sniper-rifles (or even
> semi-autos) is the number of moving parts in the reciever. So
> you'd go with a
> bolt-operated weapon, as it's more accurate.

well two of the most remarkable sniper rifles are semi automatic :
PSG1(<-- essentialy a G3 battlerifle and technicaly possible to do FA) and
M82 (<--Barret)
Semi-autos even have less recoil,...

bluedragon7

From:	shadowrn@*********.com (Martin Little)
Subject:	re munchkins and how to deal with them
Date:	Mon Oct 15 12:30:00 2001

Message no. 49 > > IIRC, one of the main reasons not to build FA sniper-rifles (or even
> > semi-autos) is the number of moving parts in the reciever. So
> > you'd go with a
> > bolt-operated weapon, as it's more accurate.
>
> well two of the most remarkable sniper rifles are semi automatic :
> PSG1(<-- essentialy a G3 battlerifle and technicaly possible to do FA) and
> M82 (<--Barret)
> Semi-autos even have less recoil,...
>

I think the simplest thing to do if a player insisted they were firing a
full auto sniper rifle would be to simply use the assult rifle range and
damage tables when they did so to reflect the fact that they aren't making
aimed shots or watching their breathing/trigger pull whenever they weren't
taking careful aimed shots which would solve the original problem of a
player insisting they were 'suppressing someone's head' :)

From:	shadowrn@*********.com (Gurth)
Subject:	re munchkins and how to deal with them
Date:	Mon Oct 15 13:35:01 2001

Message no. 50 According to zixx, on Mon, 15 Oct 2001 the word on the street was...

> IIRC, one of the main reasons not to build FA sniper-rifles (or even
> semi-autos) is the number of moving parts in the reciever. So you'd go
> with a bolt-operated weapon, as it's more accurate.

There's been a debate over that for ages, and it pretty much falls into the
same category as the following few examples:

* 9 mm Para vs. .45 ACP
* Windows vs. Unix
* USA vs. rest of the world
* Street sams vs. physads

:)

--
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If only it were almost easy.
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Message no. 51 According to Martin Little, on Mon, 15 Oct 2001 the word on the street was...

> I think the simplest thing to do if a player insisted they were firing a
> full auto sniper rifle would be to simply use the assult rifle range and
> damage tables when they did so to reflect the fact that they aren't
> making aimed shots or watching their breathing/trigger pull whenever they
> weren't taking careful aimed shots which would solve the original problem
> of a player insisting they were 'suppressing someone's head' :)

The only problem with that is that it changes weapon damage and ranges from
being independent stats to ones based on the situation. If you do that, then
you should take this to its logical conclusion and apply rules like this to
all firearms in all situations. For example, by saying that the listed
ranges only apply when the weapon is properly braced and aimed, else there
will be some kind of down shift -- like making a light pistol use taser
ranges when the shooter is running.

It also creates a contradiction when the player wants to aim carefully, but
fire full-auto in the hope that a lot of bullets will end up in the target.
By your suggested rule, careful aim gives 14S damage and 1 km range, but
full-auto fire makes the rifle only an 8M/550 m weapon. So which do you
use...?

I'm not saying this suggestion might not be a good idea, but it might cause
more problems than it actually solves.

--
Gurth@******.nl - http://www.xs4all.nl/~gurth/index.html
If only it were almost easy.
-> NAGEE Editor * ShadowRN GridSec * Triangle Virtuoso <-
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Incubated into the First Church of the Sqooshy Ball, 21-05-1998

Message no. 52 >
> The only problem with that is that it changes weapon damage and ranges from
> being independent stats to ones based on the situation. If you do that, then
> you should take this to its logical conclusion and apply rules like this to
> all firearms in all situations. For example, by saying that the listed
> ranges only apply when the weapon is properly braced and aimed, else there
> will be some kind of down shift -- like making a light pistol use taser
> ranges when the shooter is running.

I would say it would only apply to specialized weapons. I take the spirit
of the sniper rifle range/damage stats to be when the rifle is being used
properly, not that because I call it a sniper rifle I can suddenly perform
that much better than an assult rifle.

> It also creates a contradiction when the player wants to aim carefully, but
> fire full-auto in the hope that a lot of bullets will end up in the target.
> By your suggested rule, careful aim gives 14S damage and 1 km range, but
> full-auto fire makes the rifle only an 8M/550 m weapon. So which do you
> use...?

I wouldn't say that, careful aim, firing slow single shots on an accurized
rifle gives 14 S 1/k, in other words in a highly accuratized rifle you are
the weakest link.
If you have a 2.5 moa assult rifle, even if you take your time the weakest
link is still the rifle's basic inaccuracy.

> I'm not saying this suggestion might not be a good idea, but it might cause
> more problems than it actually solves.
>

I think if you applied it in the spirit of, there is nothing magical that
makes a sniper rifle able to hit better when you aren't using it as a
sniper rifle it should work out.

Message no. 53 > From: shadowrn-admin@*********.com
> [mailto:shadowrn-admin@*********.com]On Behalf Of Gurth
> Sent: Monday, October 15, 2001 7:19 PM

<snip>
> There's been a debate over that for ages, and it pretty much
> falls into the
> same category as the following few examples:
>
> * 9 mm Para vs. .45 ACP
.45 (better to silence ;-))
> * Windows vs. Unix
both?
> * USA vs. rest of the world
i am from germany, so ;-)
> * Street sams vs. physads
definitely physads ;-)

bluedragon7 ;-)))

Message no. 54 Shiro said:
>Of course I can see your point but that is exactly the
>kind of situation for which the rules on lowering
>availability were created!With enough time and money
>EVERYTHING can be bought (exept from unique items of
>course.Someone somewhere will have it for the right price.

Although everything can be bought, that doesn't mean players can buy
everything! I mean: maybe they know a couple of fixers, but that doesn't
mean that those fixers know who can get the stuff, maybe he who owns it is
in circles completely separated or whatever, so, if a master doesn't want to
introduce something, he doesn't have to.

Wallace Blade
Sepherim (Dagger in sperethiel)
"The Matrix was made to serve,
but only obeys those of us that love her."
Nodo 666: http://www16.brinkster.com/sepherim

_________________________________________________________________
Descargue GRATUITAMENTE MSN Explorer en http://explorer.msn.es/intl.asp

Message no. 55 >well two of the most remarkable sniper rifles are semi automatic :
>PSG1(<-- essentialy a G3 battlerifle and technicaly possible to do FA)
and
>M82 (<--Barret)Semi-autos even have less recoil,...
>bluedragon7

ahh yes less recoil, however you also suffer the chance for a misfed
round (or should I say a greater chance) and you also don't have the
security of knowing exactly where that casing from your shot went,
personally I've got no real opinion on semi auto or bolt action, as far
as I'd go to say that I've found when it's made a difference is when I'm
hunting with a shotgun and I greatly prefer the pump to the auto cause
it's more accurate and as far as I know that pretty much applies with
any gun, the higher recoil is only cause the part of the propellant that
would normally be driving the bolt back is now forcing the round out at
a higher velocity which (theoretically) would make it slightly more
accurate

Derek

Message no. 56 >There's been a debate over that for ages, and it pretty much falls into
the
>same category as the following few examples:

>* 9 mm Para vs. .45 ACP
>* Windows vs. Unix
>* USA vs. rest of the world
>* Street sams vs. physads

You know I'm insulted that you forgot the greatest rivalry of all

Macintosh vs. All the other computers in the world that wish they were
as good.

Message no. 57 Derek wrote

> ahh yes less recoil, however you also suffer the chance for a misfed
> round (or should I say a greater chance) and you also don't have the
> security of knowing exactly where that casing from your shot went,
> personally I've got no real opinion on semi auto or bolt action, as far
> as I'd go to say that I've found when it's made a difference is when I'm
> hunting with a shotgun and I greatly prefer the pump to the auto cause
> it's more accurate and as far as I know that pretty much applies with
> any gun, the higher recoil is only cause the part of the propellant that
> would normally be driving the bolt back is now forcing the round out at
> a higher velocity which (theoretically) would make it slightly more
> accurate

i only shot one of those scope fitted G3s (and yes, FA wasted any shot after
the first,..) but never a boltaction(except .22rimfire)
I believe both systems have merits, but in creating a SR char for sniping, i
usualy would modify his rifle to fire single shot just for style (and rip of
any smartgun system,...)

bluedragon7

Message no. 58 > "Not in my game you don't!"

Well in my games players can do whatever they want, as long as they are ready
for the consequenses.

If all the players make magical active characters, they can bet their a** that
the opposition will include more magical active characters than normal. If they
make characters with extreme initiative scores, the opposition will be able to
follow them. And so on...

Once (under SR2) I had a player using 1M nuyen on gear. He made a rigger, with
VCR3, datajack, Eurocar Westwind 2000 Turbo, Yamaha Rapier, a helicopter, a van,
and several missile launchers (shoulder mounted and vehicle mounted) and HMG's
for the vehicles. I can't remember if he had a shop or a ficility for
repairing/upgrading his vehicle, but he had one or the other.

Their first run, was quite a simple run. All they had to do, was pick up a
suitcase of black money (real cash), and bring it from one location in the
Redmond barrens, to Pier 27 (quite close to the Renraku Archology), where Mr.
Johnson would be waiting in a Mitsubishi Nightsky. What could go wrong?

Unknown to the runners, Lone Star has a bug in the suitcase, and want's to catch
the runners Mr. Johnson (a mid level Yakuza officer). In essence the runners can
either get a good mid level Yakuza officer as a contact, or a Lone Star officer
as a contact, depending on how they play their cards.

The runners are given the job by their mutual fixer contact. They blindly accept
it (just pushing the price up by 10%). Pick up the suitcase, not examining it,
phoning Mr. Johnson saying that they will arrive in 30 minutes, driving straigth
down to Pier 27, approching Mr. Johnson, only to discover that Lone Star is also
there, with two Chrysler-Nissan Patrol-One blocking the exit from the pier, a
GMC Riverine in the waters and a Northrop PRC-44B Yellowjacket in the air.

So what do you do, when you are standing next to Mr. Johnson, surrounded by Lone
Star? Of cause you pick up you shoulder mounted missile launcher, shoot down the
Yellowjacket, shoot at the Nissans, who stratecically withdraw, and then you
race away with the back money still in you possession.

Within two weeks that rigger had nothing but his cyberware, a damaged Yamaha
Rapier and enemies in both Lone Star and the Yak...

One hell of a campaign, that unfortunately had to stop due to problems with one
of the other players and his attitudes, but that's another story...

Lars
--
Lars Wagner Hansen, Jagtvej 11, 4180 Sorø
l-hansen@*****.tele.dk http://home4.inet.tele.dk/l-hansen
--
SRGC v0.22 SR1 SR2++ SR3+++ h+ b+++ B--- UB++ IE+ RN LST W++ dk sa++ ma+
sh++ ad++++ ri mc rk-- m- (e-- o t-- d-) gm+ M- P-
--
Main Rule of Usenet: Never argue with idiots. They drag you down to
their level, then beat you with experience.

Message no. 59 According to Martin Little, on Mon, 15 Oct 2001 the word on the street was...

> I would say it would only apply to specialized weapons. I take the
> spirit of the sniper rifle range/damage stats to be when the rifle is
> being used properly, not that because I call it a sniper rifle I can
> suddenly perform that much better than an assult rifle.

There's the difference: I see SR's sniper rifles as high-powered weapons,
with a lot more punch than an assault rifle. Which will apply regardless of
whether you're aiming it properly or not -- in RL terms, a .300 Magnum round
doesn't suddenly lose three quarters of its energy to become equivalent to
a 5.56 mm one just because you're not aiming it carefully.

> > It also creates a contradiction when the player wants to aim carefully,
> > but fire full-auto in the hope that a lot of bullets will end up in the
> > target. By your suggested rule, careful aim gives 14S damage and 1 km
> > range, but full-auto fire makes the rifle only an 8M/550 m weapon. So
> > which do you use...?
>
> I wouldn't say that, careful aim, firing slow single shots on an
> accurized rifle gives 14 S 1/k, in other words in a highly accuratized
> rifle you are the weakest link.
> If you have a 2.5 moa assult rifle, even if you take your time the
> weakest link is still the rifle's basic inaccuracy.

You're not answering the question :)

--
Gurth@******.nl - http://www.xs4all.nl/~gurth/index.html
If only it were almost easy.
-> NAGEE Editor * ShadowRN GridSec * Triangle Virtuoso <-
-> The Plastic Warriors Page: http://plastic.dumpshock.com <-

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Message no. 60 According to Derek Hyde, on Tue, 16 Oct 2001 the word on the street was...

> You know I'm insulted that you forgot the greatest rivalry of all
>
>
> Macintosh vs. All the other computers in the world that wish they were
> as good.

I was going to say "Windows vs. other operating systems" but that would
only have caused a response along the lines of "Windows isn't an OS" :)
Anyway I can't comment on how Macs work, as I've only ever used one exactly
once, last September, but I do know that, since MacOS X is BSD-based, it
all still comes down to Windows vs. Unix... *g*

--
Gurth@******.nl - http://www.xs4all.nl/~gurth/index.html
If only it were almost easy.
-> NAGEE Editor * ShadowRN GridSec * Triangle Virtuoso <-
-> The Plastic Warriors Page: http://plastic.dumpshock.com <-

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Incubated into the First Church of the Sqooshy Ball, 21-05-1998

Message no. 61 Zebulin Magby writes:

> > "Shiro BsquLadat" <shirogr@*****.com> wrote:
> >
> > --- Arclight <arclight@*********.de> wrote:
> > > I guess he meant that "i want a phaeton!!!! hey gm, roll for my
> > > fixer!!!!!!!!"-attitude.
> >
> > so what?thats what the fixer is.The final prize will
> > reach for the stars but it is possible to get it that way.
>
> To quote a famous line:
>
> "Not in my game you don't!"
>
> There are some things that I just won't leave to chance. A fixer just
> happening to have one of less than 12 Phaetons in all of NA is not going to
> happen. Sure, I'm using a specific example, but it works.

Um, I really don't see what is wrong with the "bad" attitude that Arclight
inferred, and I agree with Shiro.

Sure, in _your_ game there are 12 Phaetons in all of NA, and thus the chance
of any given fixer having access to one is pretty slim, but remember, _you_
specifically ruled yourself that in your game that limo would be ultra ultra
uncommon, so it's probably not a good example.

Besides, even if it is darned uncommon, I wouldn't rule out the possibility
of a fixer having one, or rather having access to one. The availability TNs
get astronomically high for a reason. After about 24 or something, the
statistical probability of a fixer getting access to that bit of gear within
his _lifetime_ is so close to zero that it might as well be. But prior to
this (and even after this point to a degree), there is a chance.

Heck, the fixer in question just might have a contact in New York. This
contact might know a bunch of shadowrunners who just pulled off an intricate
and daring assasination. This assasination involved the runners gaining
access to the Phaeton limo of a visiting megacorp executive and geeking him
(hey, a good team could pull it off with appropriate planning, and if his
security had a habit of getting a bit lax when he was in the limo, or if he
tended to send them away when he got in, or etc.). Unfortunately, the run
went a little haywire, and the runners ended up having to make a hasty
escape in his limo. Now there is a massive manhunt on for the runners. They
need fast cash for fake IDs and a trip to the Bahamas. They've got a Phaeton
limo with the upholstery covered in blood, a body in the boot, and a need to
offload it fast. A couple of quick arrangements with other parties to hide,
store, move, decontaminate, and deliver the limo, accompanied by hefty
payments to account for the overhanging manhunt, and the runners back home
may well have a Phaeton limo, for about twice it's normal price, in a month
or so.

But they'll have to contend with any bothersome "strings" that may well come
attached to the vehicle.

I don't believe that getting ahold of anything is "impossible".

And as for Arclight's comment, although he put it in an unfavourable light,
the basic intent is quite reasonable. A player's character is interested in
obtaining a particular piece of gear. The player contacts his fixer to see
if the fixer can arrange for the acquisition of the said piece of gear. The
GM, using the standard SR3 availability rules, makes the appropriate rolls.

Remember, contacting a fixer is not about asking them "hey, have you got XXX
lying round somewhere you want to sell me". It may well be asking "I'm
interested in one of those hot new YYYs. Do you know anyone who could get me
one, and who'd ignore the fact that due processing and paperwork won't be
required?". Thus the fixer may well begin to make enquiries, with, say for
example, high end car theives and automotive "rebirthing" organisations,
about the possibility of them supplying him with a Phaeton limo, as he has
an interested buyer. The availability time of such a bit of gear is likely
measured in months. Those months may well be the planning, organisation, and
execution of a series of shadowruns specifically to steal, move, and
"rebirth" a Phaeton limo. Whether these runs are conducted by PCs, or NPCs
(and paid for by PCs, either directly or indirectly through their fixer) is
rather irrelivent.

Of course, as a GM, you're fully entitled to lay down the law when it comes
to your games :-). But OTOH, don't expect your players to like it, and do
expect them to vote with their feet, as it seems many have. If your players
want to play, for example, former special ops snipers, and you as the GM
want to run, for example, low level ganger campaigns, then one or the other
is going to have to give. Either you or they will relent, or you or they
will walk. I daresay that at least listening to your players' views and
opinions is probably a good thing. This is not a movie with you as funding
director. It is a collaborative group effort. But of course, this last bit
is just my opinion ;-).

--
Damion Milliken University of Wollongong
Unofficial Shadowrun Guru E-mail: dam01@***.edu.au
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Message no. 62 Zebulin Magby writes:

> Refer to my previous response. Some vehicles cannot be found on the black
> market because they're rare enough that it would bring down too much heat
> or because they're basically one-of-a-kind. Some things my players just
> won't be able to find without a lot more involved than:
>
> PLAYER "I call up my fixer to see what he has."
> GM: <rolls some dice> "You're in luck, you know that super powerful Weapon
> of Mass Destruction you were looking for? He has three!"
>
> Um, no...

"Bringing down too much heat" is rather like the old adage "beauty is in
the
eye of the beholder". How much "heat" is "too" much? That amount
will vary
with each character. To one character, owning an upper market sports car
might be "too much", because it will cause people, and thus cops, to look
his way more often. To another, trouping around in "Trouser Snake Bob The
Dragon's" _stolen_ porno star, yes it _does_ suck my d!ck, mobile might only
just be thrilling enough.

I'd let my players and their characters decide what it "too much" for
themselves. I wouldn't make that decision for them, especially without ever
actually consulting them about it.

I'd make it pretty clear, say, if a character wanted to purchase Trouser
Snake Bob's stolen porno mobile, that owning such a vehicle could attract
the wrong kind of attention (especially the more well endowed draconic
kind), but I'd still leave the choice up to them. Their fixer might well
warn them that it's a dumb idea. He might well balk at helping them. I'd
make it clear. But if they waved enough nuyen under his nose (or whatever
took his fancy ;-)), then he say "OK, I'll help you go hang yourself", and
give it a go. In game terms, he'd get those availability dice rolling, even
if the TN was 20 or something.

Oh, and about the "hey, lucky you, your fixer has one of those big bad assed
thingies you've always wanted" idea, maybe you should try it sometime. You
ought to see the rampant _paranoia_ that runs screaming naked around the
gaming table and the PC team if you do it. "Hey, why's this really good
thing suddenly so easy for _me_ to get? What gives? Who's setting us up?
Where are the cops?" It's a whole couple of potential runs in itself ;-).

--
Damion Milliken University of Wollongong
Unofficial Shadowrun Guru E-mail: dam01@***.edu.au
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Message no. 63 Arclight writes:

> >But you are missing half the fun in that situation. That Phaeton had
> >to come from somewhere, maybe when they stole it off the Johnson there
> >was some top secret corp data that could really frag with a lot of
> >people in a data chip that had fallen out of his pocket and was loged
> >between the seat cushions. Remember "Be carefull what you ask for, you
> >just might get it" is a GM's best friend.
>
> Well, but then I've to go through the painful procedure to do up new
> characters with them...

Well, then no offense, Arclight, but you are rather poor at creative story
writing if that's the only response you can come up with. Embellish things a
little. Throw in a little complication or two. Perhaps the Johnson was a
plant in the company for another corp and the data was a drop. The original
corp wouldn't know about it. The spying corp would, but wouldn't want to
blow their agent the Johnson. It'd immediately become a more managable team
level scenario. Sorry if I sound a bit harsh, but I do believe that
imagination and creativity, not to mention rapid readjustment, are rather
important for a GM. :-)

--
Damion Milliken University of Wollongong
Unofficial Shadowrun Guru E-mail: dam01@***.edu.au
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Message no. 64 Jane VR writes:

> >I usually stick to letting them have what they
> >want and if they don't have the common sense to ask
> >for something that they can handle then the drek hits
> >the fan when they use it.
>
> Well, I can see this just degenerating into a big mess, with all the
> characters ending up dead. And given how slow combat is, it might take 3
> sessions to play out. And then the players are all pissed off because the GM
> killed their characters. Why go there?

Well, it'd probably be better to give them a few warnings first.

That way, after it happens ;-), in the future when a players says something
like "I've got a Thermonuclear Weapons Design skill of 6, how's about we go
raid a nuclear reactor and steal some uranium?", you can say "you remember
the Phaeton fiasco, don't you? You know how that turned out, right? Well
just think for a moment what will happen this time..." <grin>

--
Damion Milliken University of Wollongong
Unofficial Shadowrun Guru E-mail: dam01@***.edu.au
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Message no. 65 According to Damion Milliken, on Tue, 16 Oct 2001 the word on the street was...

> Besides, even if it is darned uncommon, I wouldn't rule out the
> possibility of a fixer having one, or rather having access to one. The
> availability TNs get astronomically high for a reason. After about 24 or
> something, the statistical probability of a fixer getting access to that
> bit of gear within his _lifetime_ is so close to zero that it might as
> well be. But prior to this (and even after this point to a degree), there
> is a chance.

What it comes down to, is that if you keep at it long enough, you'll
eventually find it. (Or find someone coming to you to try and stop you, of
course). A good example of this, in dice-rolling terms, is during my group's
cyberpirates campaign of a few years ago. They'd set their mind on acquiring a
minigun for their boat, and I figured I'd just let them roll for Availability
rather than play the search out as an adventure. With all four members of the
group rolling the dice (I let player characters roll their Etiquette skill for
availability tests, not the contacts) it took them about six months before
they actually got one -- and that was letting them roll again as soon as the
previous (failed) roll's availability time had passed.

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Message no. 66 physads and windows are better

* 9 mm Para vs. .45 ACP
* Windows vs. Unix
* USA vs. rest of the world
* Street sams vs. physads

Gwylly
"Know anything that can change there minds about killing us?"
"Sure we kill them first."
"Works for me."

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Message no. 67 <snipt!(TM)>
> Ok you've got a point there but the thing is also
that a fully auto burst would also be fairly likely to
give away your hidden position which is definitely
something that goes completely against sniping.
>
> Oh and as far as the needing something for
supressive fire, they're usually carrying a pistol or
something similar to the M4 Carbine if they really
need to toss rounds down range which is something that
you definitely should never be in the position that
you've got to worry about if you're doing your job
right as a sniper (sneak up, take your one shot, sneak
to next point, take that shot, sneak home...if any
patrols are met hide and wait so as not to jeopardize
the mission)
<Derek Hyde>

Derek, for my mind, this capability would not be for
sniping, but for other times, giving you a more
utilitarian weapon, and avoiding having to carry two
rifle-sized guns.

Then again, whenever I've seen a "squaddie"-type
sniper (I mean, a guy who forms part of unit, rather
than operating on his lonesome, and who would thus
expect to engage in combat other than sniping) on TV
etc., he's always had two guns.

But that's just TV and the movies. :)

Btw, Derek, did you ever get my question about Special
Forces weaponry?

====Doc'
(aka Mr. Freaky Big, Super-Dynamic Troll of Tomorrow, aka Doc'booner, aka Doc' Vader)

.sig Sauer

If you SMELL what the DOC' is COOKING!!!

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Message no. 68 > > The only problem with that is that it changes
weapon damage and ranges from being independent stats
to ones based on the situation. If you do that, then
you should take this to its logical conclusion and
apply rules like this to all firearms in all
situations. For example, by saying that the listed
ranges only apply when the weapon is properly braced
and aimed, else there will be some kind of down shift
-- like making a light pistol use taser ranges when
the shooter is running.
>
> I would say it would only apply to specialized
weapons. I take the spirit of the sniper rifle
range/damage stats to be when the rifle is being used
properly, not that because I call it a sniper rifle I
can suddenly perform that much better than an assult
rifle.
<snipt!(TM)>

One other question - what do you do when the sniper
has Rifles skill, but not Assault Rifles? Do you allow
him/her to use the rifle with Rifles skill in all
situations? Do you let them default at a lower
penalty? Do you apply standard defaulting rules? Do
you do something else?

====Doc'
(aka Mr. Freaky Big, Super-Dynamic Troll of Tomorrow, aka Doc'booner, aka Doc' Vader)

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If you SMELL what the DOC' is COOKING!!!

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Message no. 69 > "Bringing down too much heat" is rather like the old
adage "beauty is in the eye of the beholder". How much
"heat" is "too" much? That amount will vary with each
character. To one character, owning an upper market
sports car might be "too much", because it will cause
people, and thus cops, to look his way more often. To
another, trouping around in "Trouser Snake Bob The
Dragon's" _stolen_ porno star, yes it _does_ suck my
d!ck, mobile might only just be thrilling enough.
<snipt!(TM)>
> Damion Milliken

It's actually Bob Dragon, not Bob THE Dragon...and he
prefers to call it his Trouser Dragon.

;)

Man, with the mileage I got outta him this weekend
alone, I GOTTA do something with good ol' Bob. ;)

====Doc'
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Message no. 70 According to aaron b chappell, on Tue, 16 Oct 2001 the word on the street was...

> physads and windows are better

Oh well, at least you didn't try and pick one in the other two categories ;)

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Message no. 71 --- Gurth <Gurth@******.nl> wrote:
> Only because the game rules forbid it.
> Realistically, there's no reason why a
> sniper rifle couldn't be full-automatic (and, in
> fact, there are a few of
> those IRL).

Could you give me some examples?

====-It didn't look so big in paper!!!!
-Ideas grow,Shiro.Sometimes bigger than life!

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Message no. 72 --- Jane VR <kadjari@*******.com> wrote:
> Well, I can see this just degenerating into a big
> mess, with all the
> characters ending up dead. And given how slow combat
> is, it might take 3
> sessions to play out. And then the players are all
> pissed off because the GM
> killed their characters. Why go there?

Because from my experience you only need to do this
once in your carreer and the players will not repeate
the same mistake again.Anyway those with the only
danger to do this are newbies. Old-timers know what to
get and when to use it.

====-It didn't look so big in paper!!!!
-Ideas grow,Shiro.Sometimes bigger than life!

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Message no. 73 According to Shiro BsquLadat, on Wed, 17 Oct 2001 the word on the street was...

> > Only because the game rules forbid it.
> > Realistically, there's no reason why a
> > sniper rifle couldn't be full-automatic (and, in
> > fact, there are a few of
> > those IRL).
>
> Could you give me some examples?

The prime one is the one I mentioned in my other post, the G3 SG/1. I can't
think of any others right now, but I'm sure there are (hey, I never said there
were _many_ :)

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Message no. 74 > According to Shiro BsquLadat, on Wed, 17 Oct 2001 the word on the street was...
>
> > > Only because the game rules forbid it.
> > > Realistically, there's no reason why a
> > > sniper rifle couldn't be full-automatic (and, in
> > > fact, there are a few of
> > > those IRL).
> >
> > Could you give me some examples?
>
> The prime one is the one I mentioned in my other post, the G3 SG/1. I can't
> think of any others right now, but I'm sure there are (hey, I never said there
> were _many_ :)

I was under the impression that the SG/1 had a custom adjustable trigger
group and not the standard G3 trigger group. I've never heard of it being
autofire ready.

Message no. 75 At 14:03 17.10.2001 -0400, Martin Little wrote:

<snip>

>I was under the impression that the SG/1 had a custom adjustable trigger
>group and not the standard G3 trigger group. I've never heard of it being
>autofire ready.

http://www.hkpro.com/g3sg1.htm

Arclight

Message no. 76 >
> >I was under the impression that the SG/1 had a custom adjustable trigger
> >group and not the standard G3 trigger group. I've never heard of it being
> >autofire ready.
>
> http://www.hkpro.com/g3sg1.htm
>
Ahh so it's not a PSG/1.

Has anyone here fired a G3 in full auto? I'm interested in how
controllable this would be, as well as how it's accuracy is 'out of the
box' so to speak in comparision to the 1/2 moa psg.

Message no. 77 At 14:28 17.10.2001 -0400, Martin Little wrote:

<snip>

>Ahh so it's not a PSG/1.

The PSG 1 ist not tailored towards military snipers, it's to heavy for that
role.

>Has anyone here fired a G3 in full auto? I'm interested in how
>controllable this would be, as well as how it's accuracy is 'out of the
>box' so to speak in comparision to the 1/2 moa psg.

AFAIK moa (minute of angel) precision of military sniper rifles isn't that
good anyway, and I won't guesstimate it for a stock G3 anyway :) I was
able to hit man-sized targets up to 350 meters, with the standard iron
sights. With a scope, the G3 is said to have a maximum effective range of
600m, though most people doubt that.
Oh, and I was never that stupid to fire a G3 on full auto :))

Arclight

Message no. 78 >>Ahh so it's not a PSG/1.

>The PSG 1 ist not tailored towards military snipers, it's to heavy for that

>role.

>>Has anyone here fired a G3 in full auto? I'm interested in how
>>controllable this would be, as well as how it's accuracy is 'out of the
>>box' so to speak in comparision to the 1/2 moa psg.

>AFAIK moa (minute of angel) precision of military sniper rifles isn't that
>good anyway, and I won't guesstimate it for a stock G3 anyway :) I was
>able to hit man-sized targets up to 350 meters, with the standard iron
>sights. With a scope, the G3 is said to have a maximum effective range of
>600m, though most people doubt that.
>Oh, and I was never that stupid to fire a G3 on full auto :))

Probably a good idea too. Unlike Wedge, you can't get a new shoulder (of
course that was by putting a LMG barrel on a carbine stock...). I think the
idea for full auto in a sniper rifle would be more like what the other
thread mentioned, use in case you're discovered and need to lay down
suppression fire. Or to "blend in" with the normal troops.

EMFA John Valeu
-AKA- TimeKeeper
"Don't put off tomorrow what you can do today, because it's just a
matter of time."

Message no. 79 >From: Shiro BsquLadat <shirogr@*****.com>

>Because from my experience you only need to do this
>once in your carreer and the players will not repeate
>the same mistake again.Anyway those with the only
>danger to do this are newbies. Old-timers know what to
>get and when to use it.
>

Sounds like you have good players.

The people I used to play with, well it was DnD not Shadowrun, but if they
got their hands on something superduper, they would probably decide to
attack Ares. And then their characters would die and they would be really
upset. And then they would make the exact same characters over again, and
say we had whatever it is before, why can't we have one now? I had fun
playing with them, partly because they did go over the top a lot, but I
wouldn't give them anything that is just going to get them killed, because
every time they get killed, they get less and less attached to their
characters, and do stupider and stupider things with the next one. They
don't learn not to do stupid things, they learn that characters are
disposable and it's easy to make a new one.

Jane

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Message no. 80 >From: Damion Milliken <dam01@***.edu.au>
>
>Well, it'd probably be better to give them a few warnings first.
>
>That way, after it happens ;-), in the future when a players says
> >something like "I've got a Thermonuclear Weapons Design skill of 6,
> >how's about we go raid a nuclear reactor and steal some uranium?", you
> >can say "you remember the Phaeton fiasco, don't you? You know how that
> >turned out, right? Well just think for a moment what will happen this
> >time..." <grin>

I suppose it's not impossible that players might learn from their mistakes.
That would be a good result.

Jane

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Message no. 81 >From: Damion Milliken <dam01@***.edu.au>

>That way, after it happens ;-), in the future when a players says something
>like "I've got a Thermonuclear Weapons Design skill of 6, how's about we go
>raid a nuclear reactor and steal some uranium?", you can say "you remember
>the Phaeton fiasco, don't you? You know how that turned out, right? Well
>just think for a moment what will happen this time..." <grin>
>

I'd rather they raided a reactor than rang their fixer for it.

Jane

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Message no. 82 at least 3 people wrote:
>> >I was under the impression that the SG/1 had a custom adjustable trigger
> >group and not the standard G3 trigger group. I've never heard
> of it being
> >autofire ready.
>
>> http://www.hkpro.com/g3sg1.htm

actually the one i used was older (or modified) and had no set-trigger group

>> >Ahh so it's not a PSG/1.
>
>> The PSG 1 ist not tailored towards military snipers, it's to
> heavy for that
> role.
>
>> >Has anyone here fired a G3 in full auto? I'm interested in how
> >controllable this would be, as well as how it's accuracy is 'out of the
> >box' so to speak in comparision to the 1/2 moa psg.
>
>> AFAIK moa (minute of angel) precision of military sniper rifles
> isn't that
> good anyway, and I won't guesstimate it for a stock G3 anyway :) I was
> able to hit man-sized targets up to 350 meters, with the standard iron
> sights. With a scope, the G3 is said to have a maximum effective range of
> 600m, though most people doubt that.
> Oh, and I was never that stupid to fire a G3 on full auto :))

> Probably a good idea too. Unlike Wedge, you can't get a new shoulder (of
> course that was by putting a LMG barrel on a carbine stock...).
> I think the
> idea for full auto in a sniper rifle would be more like what the other
> thread mentioned, use in case you're discovered and need to lay down
> suppression fire. Or to "blend in" with the normal troops.

I only shot full auto once (with a G3, MG was another matter), but only from
hip while running, for about 4 rounds
(G3s tend to jam with blanks, it was more like singleshot-boltaction ;_)))
, using only blanks, so no way to tell precision or actual recoil with live
ammo, but also no need for a new shoulder,...

The Precision dependet a lot on which rifle u got, mine from basic training
had hit the tarmac in those 25 years before me a lot and shot realy bad, but
after knowing where to aim (high to the right) it hit in acceptable range.
the scope fitted one, also older than me at that time by a year, had been
handled very carefully and shot without scope 10s straight, and after the
scope was fitted and sighted in, i was able not only to hit mansized
targets, but to pick parts ;-)

bluedragon7 <-- now of to Essen Game Fair, cya there *g*

Message no. 83 According to Martin Little, on Wed, 17 Oct 2001 the word on the street was...

> I was under the impression that the SG/1 had a custom adjustable trigger
> group and not the standard G3 trigger group. I've never heard of it
> being autofire ready.

According to Jane's, it has an adjustable trigger group with a full-auto
mode.

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Message no. 84 According to Jane VR, on Thu, 18 Oct 2001 the word on the street was...

> >That way, after it happens ;-), in the future when a players says
> > something like "I've got a Thermonuclear Weapons Design skill of 6,
> > how's about we go raid a nuclear reactor and steal some uranium?"
>
> I'd rather they raided a reactor than rang their fixer for it.

Ah, but then you can have the fixer say, "I know where to find it, but
actually getting it is a bit of a problem. However, I can sell you the
information..."

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Message no. 85 -----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----
Hash: SHA1

"Jane VR" <kadjari@*******.com> wrote:
>
> Sounds like you have good players.
>
> The people I used to play with, well it was DnD not Shadowrun, but
> if they got their hands on something superduper, they would
> probably decide to attack Ares. And then their characters would
> die and they would be really upset. And then they would make the
> exact same characters over again, and say we had whatever it is
> before, why can't we have one now? I had fun playing with them,
> partly because they did go over the top a lot, but I wouldn't give
> them anything that is just going to get them killed, because every
> time they get killed, they get less and less attached to their
> characters, and do stupider and stupider things with the next one.
> They don't learn not to do stupid things, they learn that
> characters are disposable and it's easy to make a new one.
>
> Jane
>

This is something that afflicts my group as well. I tell them, "You
know, doing that may get your character killed." and they respond
with "So? I'll just erase the name and rename him. It's only paper
and pencil."

Now that really gets me...yes, they're right, but if you have that
kind of attitude, why play in the first place?

Zebulin

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Message no. 86 At 01:06 PM 10/18/2001 -0700, Zebulin Magby wrote:

>This is something that afflicts my group as well. I tell them, "You
>know, doing that may get your character killed." and they respond
>with "So? I'll just erase the name and rename him. It's only paper
>and pencil."
>
>Now that really gets me...yes, they're right, but if you have that
>kind of attitude, why play in the first place?

Ah, it sounds like you've killed their characters one to many times.

The trick to this one is to stop killing their characters :)

Let's say they get ahold of that uber weapon and start using it. Instead
of striking back in kind and killing their characters, sick something on
them like DNA/pheromone (everyone has a different smell on a molecular
level) tracking mosquitos that inject them with a neurotoxin that is damn
near impossible to resist. Or even something as simple as a corporate
hermetic mage hopped up on elementals with a Stun spell tags the characters
from behind a mirrored armored window (or from long range via a scope).

When the characters wake up they find themselves divested of all gear on
in/on a corporate prison ala The Island, and the next adventure involves
surviving and breaking out of prison.

Or whatever.

The point is that you can switch gears and meet force with Evil GMness.
Don't think, "Great, it's time to kill the characters again
<sigh>." Think, "<cackle> Excellent. They've given me an
opportunity to
have fun <egmg>."

:)

To Life,
-Graht
ShadowRN Assistant Fearless Leader II
--

Message no. 87 In article
<Pine.LNX.4.10.10110171421550.19868-100000@*******.vegamuse.org>, Martin
Little <grimjack@*******.vegamuse.org

>Has anyone here fired a G3 in full auto? I'm interested in how
>controllable this would be, as well as how it's accuracy is 'out of the
>box' so to speak in comparision to the 1/2 moa psg.

Even 5.56mm rifles like the L85A1 are off-target by the second round,
the rest of the burst missing overhead.

To get useful accuracy in a full-auto weapon firing 7.62mm, you need
something weighing 20lb+ - like the L4 Bren, or the HK21. Anything else
just leaps off target within the first couple of rounds.

--
Paul J. Adam

Message no. 88 >From: "Zebulin Magby" <zebulingod@*****.com>

>
>Now that really gets me...yes, they're right, but if you have that
>kind of attitude, why play in the first place?
>
>Zebulin
>
>
Yeah, the two worst in my group don't play any more. Once they got bored
being munchkins, they didn't know how else to play.

Maybe if you give them little roleplaying-y things to make them feel unique,
like bartender who knows a particular character and gives him free drinks,
or extra info. Or a neighbour who has a special nickname for him. Or if a
character dies, and an NPC comments on him being gone, and that it's a
shame. One of my players had a character who was the son of a noble so all
the NPCs called him 'Your Grace'. That was his longest lived, and favourite,
character.

Jane

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Message no. 89 -----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----
Hash: SHA1

"Graht" <davidb@****.imcprint.com> wrote:
>
> Ah, it sounds like you've killed their characters one to many
> times.
>
> The trick to this one is to stop killing their characters :)
>

Actually, to tell you the truth, I don't usually kill the playe- I
mean, the characters. [:

My games tend to be very cinematic in nature, and a lot of times we
end up not rolling dice for a lot of things.

Zebulin

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Message no. 90 Zebulin Magby writes:

> This is something that afflicts my group as well. I tell them, "You know,
> doing that may get your character killed." and they respond with "So? I'll
> just erase the name and rename him. It's only paper and pencil."

This is directed at Jane's original query, too.

I think Karma Pool is the big equaliser. A character with 6 Karma Pool is
literally twice as good (power, survivability, ability to do cool stuff,
etc.) as one with a Karma Pool of 1, and everything else equal. I usually
find that once a character accumulates a Karma Pool of around 6 or so, a
player is very reluctant to replace the character or to endanger it so that
it may die, as a new character will only have a Karma Pool of 1.

--
Damion Milliken University of Wollongong
Unofficial Shadowrun Guru E-mail: dam01@***.edu.au
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Message no. 91 Records show that at 19:20 on Friday 19/10/01, Damion Milliken scribbled:
>I think Karma Pool is the big equaliser. A character with 6 Karma Pool is
>literally twice as good (power, survivability, ability to do cool stuff,
>etc.) as one with a Karma Pool of 1, and everything else equal. I usually
>find that once a character accumulates a Karma Pool of around 6 or so, a
>player is very reluctant to replace the character or to endanger it so that
>it may die, as a new character will only have a Karma Pool of 1.

Ah, the death of a long-term character. The heart wrenching despair, the
anguish, the inconsolable sorrow. I've seen some of our characters (mine
included) who'd been played continuously for five, eight and, once, eleven
years, die. They had huge karma pools - up round the 30 and 40+ mark.
They'd been played for so long they had collected their own game histories
- endless stories and jokes, encounters, achievements and failures,
hundreds of nights of tension, laughter and good company.

These characters had protected a young band from an ancient spirit,
resurrected an elven decker so that he could die again, defeated a
feathered serpent in Hawaii, helped another feathered serpent to defeat a
terrible evil, discovered the truth about the UB then survived the Chicago
CZ, met Harlequin in Tarislar then stood with him on the Bridge, voted for
(and against) Dunkelzahn, endured the breakup of Fuchi, and the endless
consequences of Dunkelzahn's will, viewed the rise of the new megacorps
with suspicion, and so on. All when these were first published stories,
when they were fresh, exciting and new. And that's the metagame; the real
flesh of these character's histories were in the small details: what they
did, where they lived, how they interacted with other PCs and NPCs, their
many minor adventures, successes, jokes, fubars and stories.

All this is lost when an old character dies. Remembered but dead. Character
sheet archived. It's not the loss of rating 8+ skills and a 30+ karma pool
that's difficult, it's the loss of a unique history, a unique personality,
a unique story. That's the real tragedy.

Chris

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