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Message no. 1
From: Drekhead <drekhead@***.NET>
Subject: Reply to Erik's rant [OT]
Date: Fri, 24 Apr 1998 17:38:07 -0500
I was going to send this private, but since Erik's comments were
public, it is only fair that I get a public forum for my rebuttal.
I promise if it continues to take it private.

On 24 Apr 98 at 16:45, Erik Jameson wrote:

> I thought someone had made a comment about not being able to lift
> cars up or something. So I responded. Why is that a problem?

It's not, except you were discounting Gurth's example, but his
example was valid to prove that a car couldn't be thrown, not lifted.
Your tangent was to state that a car could indeed be lifted. I agree
with that. But it is irrelevant to Gurth's example. So, no problem.
Just trying to keep things in context.

> <rant mode on>

Oh boy...

> If GridSec is going to start policing original thread intent and
> stop us from going off on tangents, OT or not, from those threads,
> you will have earned the title "Gestapo" (which at the time was
> innappropriate and incorrect) and I will quit this list.

Whoa. You need to step back and realize that I do post stuff once
in a while that is completely removed from my GridSec title. I'm not
going to comment further on the above portion of your rant, because
it is so without merit to be laughable.

> matter. Unless I, or others, are becoming abusive, are incessantly
> off-topic, flame and insult, or keep pounding away at a dead topic
> for weeks at a time, it's not your job as GridSec to step in.

I didn't step in as GridSec. I posted as a member of the list. And
not for the reason you think.

> Your
> job is to answer commonly asked questions, kill flame wars before
> they become wars, kill threads that are either off-topic or
> incendiary, and attempt to maintain some semblance of order. But
> that order is akin to Wild West order; you don't shoot me and don't
> steal my cattle, you ain't broken any laws. We won't take any
> Orwellian order on this list. Try to impose it and you'll kill the
> list.

No comment, because I agree.

> Let's get something straight here; as GridSec, you are always "on
> duty" as it were.

I am first and foremost a member of this list. I am GridSec only when
responding to a problem. If being a member of GridSec means I cannot
participate in list threads, then I will step down right now.

> If you're commenting on rules or whatnot, your
> opinion as GridSec is only as good as anyone else's on this list.

Of course. Who said otherwise?

> But when you move to stop, kill, squash, or otherwise end a line of
> postings, that's *always* as GridSec. You can't say, or imply, that
> a thread or tangent should be ended as a "private citizen."

Happens all the time. One of the reasons that GridSec was formed in
the first place. The Admins got tired of a thread lingering by the
continued array of messages from half the list to end it. Better 1
message than 10.

> I read your above reply to me as "This is GridSec.
> You have strayed off-topic. You will cease and desist this line of
> postings immediately. Return to the original topic or prepare for
> the consequences."

Sorry for the misunderstanding. It was not my intention, or desire. I
respect you Erik. I find most of your posts fascinating. I am sorry
you think I'm some kind of "Gestapo". Nothing could be further from
the truth.

I'm generally a pretty easy going and nice guy. I volunteered for
GridSec not to piss people off, but to try and help the list run more
smoothly.

So, can't we all just get along? :)

I hope we can end this now. If you need to reply, please do so
privately. (That was not a GridSec request. That was a personal
request.)

P.S. Question (this is mainly for Erik, but anyone can reply that
has read to this point);

Would it help if I took the GridSec title out of my sig for general
posting to avoid any confusion? I being serious here. I do want this
to happen again.

Thanks for listening.

--

-----------------------------------------------------------------
- DREKHEAD - | "Just accept that sometimes
- drekhead@***.net - | you're the pigeon and sometimes
*-GridSec - ShadowRN Division-* | you're the statue."
"To Protect and To Serve" | -Unknown
=================================================================
http://www.geocities.com/TimesSquare/Alley/6990/index.html
Message no. 2
From: Erik Jameson <erikj@****.COM>
Subject: Re: Reply to Erik's rant [OT]
Date: Fri, 24 Apr 1998 18:08:36 -0400
At 05:38 PM 4/24/98 -0500, you wrote:

>P.S. Question (this is mainly for Erik, but anyone can reply that
>has read to this point);
>
>Would it help if I took the GridSec title out of my sig for general
>posting to avoid any confusion? I being serious here. I do want this
>to happen again.

It probably would help to remove that when posting as a "private citizen."

Don't get me wrong, I'm not trying to say that you, or anyone else with an
official or semi-official can't post or participate in normal RN
discussions. Hell, between David and Gurth, we'd lose half the
postings...which aside from the benefit of less traffic, it we would lose
two of the opinions and thoughts of two people I respect for their SR
knowledge if nothing else. Can't say I know you, so I can't say much about
you in fairness.

What I am saying is that I can intimate, imply, or outright shout to stop a
thread. No one is necessarily going to listen to me.

But even without the official GridSec guise on, when you, or
Adam/Gurth/David/Dvixen post the same exact thing that I would,
asking/implying/demanding a thread end, your voice carries a lot more
weight because of the "official" position. *That's* what I'm trying to
say. You folks simply can't say, as a private citizen, stop this thread in
any way, because it will have the appearance of being official GridSec type
business.

As GridSec, you should realize that on certain matters, your voice
(official or not) carries more weight than others. It's a bit like when
Steve Kenson or Jon Setzo (I hope I spelled that right) pipe up and speak.
Their voice, even though they aren't official FASA employees, carries more
weight than the rest of us when talking about Magic or Rigging,
respectively. You three GridSec folks have been thrust into a similar
situation as it refers to admin type things.

It may be unfortunate, but it's true I think.

And no, I don't think you or GridSec is the Gestapo. Start being
heavy-handed SOBs and yes, you will be the Gestapo then. But I honestly
don't believe that this will happen, at least as long as Gurth is on staff.
I've heard rumors about a nasty flare-up between him and MC23, but I
honestly can't say I've ever read an angry message from Gurth. He's almost
too laid back sometimes...

Anyway, like I said minutes before, I'm all for just dropping this and just
letting it go. I hope I've made my point, you've made yours, no feelings
are hurt on either side, and we can just move on.

Erik J.


"Ladies & Gentleman, the newest member of the band, the one and only Spice
Boy, GRUMPY SPICE!!!" <and the crowd goes wild!!!>
Message no. 3
From: Katt Freyson <katt@******.NET>
Subject: Re: Reply to Erik's rant [OT]
Date: Fri, 24 Apr 1998 19:07:05 -0400
-----Original Message-----
From: Shadowrun Discussion [mailto:SHADOWRN@********.ITRIBE.NET]On
Behalf Of Drekhead
Sent: April 24, 1998 6:38 PM
To: SHADOWRN@********.ITRIBE.NET
Subject: Reply to Erik's rant [OT]

Would it help if I took the GridSec title out of my sig for general
posting to avoid any confusion? I being serious here. I do want this
to happen again.
=================================

Sir,
While it should not be required, it may well indeed aid in this situation
if you make absolutely obvious when you are posting as a list member, and
when you are posting as a grid sec. Choosing between two different
signatures [assuming your eMail program allows this] would be a good step.

I, speaking for myself only, will always assume that a post is from a list
member unless the <Gridsec> tags are used. I believe this should be
acceptable to all.

I have seen a number of "flames" come off here, and been the receipient
of
a few too, solely because of missunderstanding. It would be good if we were
to assume goodness in the others. If one perceives an attack, or whatever,
private eMail to the offender should clear things up. But please, there is
no need to do what some assholes have done to me. If you have a problem with
a post, assume that there _must_ be some missunderstanding, and ASK. I've
had flame mail from people who've assumed that I was attacking others [not
even themselves] and I am fed up with this garbage. ASK, don't assume.

I know I may have done so myself, and I am sorry. I promisse not to over
react, I will assume goodness and take it to private eMail if I have a
problem.

Katt Freyson
ICQ UIN 3337155
Montreal, Canada
Message no. 4
From: Drekhead <drekhead@***.NET>
Subject: Re: Reply to Erik's rant [OT]
Date: Fri, 24 Apr 1998 20:26:19 -0500
On 24 Apr 98 at 18:08, Erik Jameson wrote:

> At 05:38 PM 4/24/98 -0500, you wrote:
>
> >Would it help if I took the GridSec title out of my sig for general
> >posting to avoid any confusion? I being serious here. I do want this
> >to happen again.
>
> It probably would help to remove that when posting as a "private
> citizen."

Ok, thanks. (And thanks to Katt as well). It's done. Well, will be
soon. :)

Erik, thanks for the comments. I will keep them in mind when I post
from now on.

--
Drekhead
My .sig is at the cleaners.
Message no. 5
From: Ereskanti <Ereskanti@***.COM>
Subject: Re: Reply to Erik's rant [OT]
Date: Fri, 24 Apr 1998 21:43:02 EDT
In a message dated 4/24/98 6:12:23 PM US Eastern Standard Time,
katt@******.NET writes:

> I know I may have done so myself, and I am sorry. I promisse not to
> over
> react, I will assume goodness and take it to private eMail if I have a
> problem.
>
> Katt Freyson
>
Careful Katt, you know what they say about assuming.... ;)

-K (trying to keep things generally light)
Message no. 6
From: Katt Freyson <katt@******.NET>
Subject: Re: Reply to Erik's rant [OT]
Date: Fri, 24 Apr 1998 22:58:36 -0400
-----Original Message-----
From: Shadowrun Discussion [mailto:SHADOWRN@********.ITRIBE.NET]On
Behalf Of Drekhead
Sent: April 24, 1998 9:26 PM
To: SHADOWRN@********.ITRIBE.NET
Subject: Re: Reply to Erik's rant [OT]

Ok, thanks. (And thanks to Katt as well). It's done. Well, will be
soon. :)
======================
Wow, something I posted did some good? I am honoured.
Message no. 7
From: Katt Freyson <katt@******.NET>
Subject: Re: Reply to Erik's rant [OT]
Date: Fri, 24 Apr 1998 22:58:47 -0400
-----Original Message-----
From: Shadowrun Discussion [mailto:SHADOWRN@********.ITRIBE.NET]On
Behalf Of Ereskanti
Sent: April 24, 1998 9:43 PM
To: SHADOWRN@********.ITRIBE.NET
Subject: Re: Reply to Erik's rant [OT]

Careful Katt, you know what they say about assuming.... ;)
=======================
I assume you know. <grin> Yes, it is better not to assume, but sometime one
cannot verify, therefore if one must assume [and hopefully we shall keep
that to the minimum] then let us assume the best, rather than the worst. And
then let us proceed. So, the next time someone perceives badness from me,
please, eMail me privately and politely inquire. Chances are that if you
infered something bad, that it was a missunderstanding on your part, or a
misscomunication on mine.

Katt Freyson
ICQ UIN 3337155
Montreal, Canada
Message no. 8
From: Airwasp <Airwasp@***.COM>
Subject: Re: Reply to Erik's rant [OT]
Date: Sat, 25 Apr 1998 08:05:59 EDT
In a message dated 4/24/98 9:38:23 PM !!!First Boot!!!, drekhead@***.NET
writes:

> P.S. Question (this is mainly for Erik, but anyone can reply that
> has read to this point);
>
> Would it help if I took the GridSec title out of my sig for general
> posting to avoid any confusion? I being serious here. I do want this
> to happen again.
>
> Thanks for listening.

Personally, I believe it would be nice that way some of us can better
determine in which 'mode' (Gridsec or Personal) that you are responding as.

And thank you being calm and responding to Erik in a completely professional
manner. I tip my hat in your direction.

Mike

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