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Message no. 1
From: Brett Borger <bxb121@***.EDU>
Subject: Request for SR3 Magic
Date: Thu, 25 Sep 1997 11:09:52 +0000
I'm in a demanding mood, so here goes:
(This is basically to Steve Kenson, but I have no doubt everyone will
jump in).

Can we PLEASE have a main-book illusion spell that creates a
believable Phantasm to non-voluntary subjects? I know we have the
creation rules, but if you asked what the top 3 illusion spells
should be, I'd say:
Invisibility (got it)
Mask(got it)
Phantasm (or whatever) (not in 1st edition, not in 2nd edition, not
in either Grimmy, not in Awakenings.)

What's the deal? why won't you give us an "official" spell that lets
us create illusionary people (you gave us Crowd Scene in Awakenings,
but that has severely limited usage) or objects?

If you think it is too powerful to give a "you shape it" kind of
deal, make it Illusionary (Object) or something. Illusion is a
seriously weakened catagory because of this lack.

(In my group you cannot start with spells not in the books, so we
have a REAL hard time creating characters based on Illusions)


Brett Borger
SwiftOne@***.edu
AAP Techie
Message no. 2
From: GRANITE <granite@**.NET>
Subject: Re: Request for SR3 Magic
Date: Thu, 25 Sep 1997 16:07:36 -0700
> Can we PLEASE have a main-book illusion spell that creates a
> believable Phantasm to non-voluntary subjects? I know we have the
> creation rules, but if you asked what the top 3 illusion spells
> should be, I'd say:

That would be Trid Spectacle...Out of the Grimmy..At least that is
the way I read it..Although there is no listed resistance test..I
would say make it a perception test based on force and sucesses..
--------------------------------GRANITE
"Rock Steady"
===============================================
Lord, Grant Me The Serenity To Accept The Things I Cannot Change,
The Courage To Change The Things I Can,
And The Wisdom To Hide The Bodies Of Those People I Had To Kill
Because They Pissed Me Off.
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ShadowRunner's Serenity Prayer
Message no. 3
From: Ray & Tamara <macey@***.BRISNET.ORG.AU>
Subject: Re: Request for SR3 Magic
Date: Fri, 26 Sep 1997 09:10:08 +1000
> > Can we PLEASE have a main-book illusion spell that creates a
> > believable Phantasm to non-voluntary subjects? I know we have the
> > creation rules, but if you asked what the top 3 illusion spells
> > should be, I'd say:
>
> That would be Trid Spectacle...Out of the Grimmy..At least that is
> the way I read it..Although there is no listed resistance test..I
> would say make it a perception test based on force and sucesses..

Trid spectacle is voluntary, and obviously not real.

NightRain.

-----------------------------------------------------------------------------
| The universe is a big place, and whatever happens, you will not be missed |
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EMAIL: macey@***.brisnet.org.au
Message no. 4
From: Gurth <gurth@******.NL>
Subject: Re: Request for SR3 Magic
Date: Fri, 26 Sep 1997 11:12:43 +0100
GRANITE said on 16:07/25 Sep 97...

> That would be Trid Spectacle...Out of the Grimmy..At least that is
> the way I read it..Although there is no listed resistance test..I
> would say make it a perception test based on force and sucesses..

Entertainment (and by extension Spectacle and Trid Spectacle as well)
requires a voluntary target. So unless the sec guards _want_ to see
someone sneaking off to the R&D bulding while your team approaches the
office block, it won't work on them...

--
Gurth@******.nl - http://www.xs4all.nl/~gurth/index.html
Zo buurman, ik hier?
-> NERPS Project Leader & Unofficial Shadowrun Guru <-
-> The Plastic Warriors Page: http://www.xs4all.nl/~gurth/plastic.html <-

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Message no. 5
From: Steve Kenson <TalonMail@***.COM>
Subject: Re: Request for SR3 Magic
Date: Fri, 26 Sep 1997 12:46:10 -0400
Brett Borger <bxb121@***.EDU> writes:
>Can we PLEASE have a main-book illusion spell that creates a
>believable Phantasm to non-voluntary subjects?

I'll see what I can do. I think such a spell would have to be fairly specific
(like the Illusory Object spell you mentioned) in order to avoid abuse,
especially using it to duplicate the effects of other illusion spells like
Mask.

Steve
Message no. 6
From: Tim Cooper <z-i-m@****.COM>
Subject: Re: Request for SR3 Magic
Date: Sat, 27 Sep 1997 16:09:48 EDT
On Fri, 26 Sep 1997 12:46:10 -0400 Steve Kenson <TalonMail@***.COM>
writes:
>Brett Borger <bxb121@***.EDU> writes:
>>Can we PLEASE have a main-book illusion spell that creates a
>>believable Phantasm to non-voluntary subjects?
>
>I'll see what I can do. I think such a spell would have to be fairly
specific
>(like the Illusory Object spell you mentioned) in order to avoid abuse,
>especially using it to duplicate the effects of other illusion spells
like
>Mask.

Well, Illusionary Object has been an unoffical standard in our game (that
is to say we all agree that such a spell exists, and know exactly what
the formula, game-stat wise, would be.. just no one has actually sat down
and written it up.)

But seriously what's to stop you from making something like Illusionary
Creature, or more general (and higher drain): Illusionary Scene... if you
want something like Illusionary Gun it's obviously going to have a pretty
low drain (restricted "target", versus 'Illusionary Predator II' or
something, or just the Ill. Object), while something correspondingly more
general with a wider spectrum of available options will have a
correspondingly higher drain.

Also if your dilema is that in your campaign, you can't have anything
that isn't in the BBB, then talk to your GM about it and collaborate with
him/her on whipping up a set of 'sanctioned' expansions for the Illusion
spells.

~Tim
Message no. 7
From: Brett Borger <bxb121@***.EDU>
Subject: Re: Request for SR3 Magic
Date: Mon, 29 Sep 1997 07:29:45 +0000
> But seriously what's to stop you from making something like Illusionary
> Creature, or more general (and higher drain): Illusionary Scene... if you

I've explained this before:
1) My group says no non-book spells at
creation.
2) when switching groups, we have to go through the whol
argument again
3) It really SHOULD be included with the basic rules....who ever
heard of having Illusion as one of the basic categories without
having a method of creating a believable illusion?

> Also if your dilema is that in your campaign, you can't have anything
> that isn't in the BBB, then talk to your GM about it and collaborate with
> him/her on whipping up a set of 'sanctioned' expansions for the Illusion
> spells.

I'm often the GM, but the basic problem that can't be overcome is
that it should just be there. If they're redo-ing SR2, they should
think to include it. After all, we can all make up house rules to
cover every situation....but the basic, normal situations should be
provided for in the rules.

(Plus, while we can hack apart existing Illusion spells and discover
the rules, the Illusion creation rules don't really cover how it
would work....What decides if an Illusion is Simple, complex, or Very
Complex? Looking at existing spells you find it uses Either
single-sense or multi-sensory, obvious or not obvious. Yes, you can
take it apart to find the coraspondence, but that's a bit cruel to do
to new players.)


Brett Borger
SwiftOne@***.edu
AAP Techie
Message no. 8
From: Mark Steedman <M.J.Steedman@***.RGU.AC.UK>
Subject: Re: Request for SR3 Magic
Date: Mon, 29 Sep 1997 16:07:24 GMT
Tim Cooper writes
> >Brett Borger <bxb121@***.EDU> writes:
> >>Can we PLEASE have a main-book illusion spell that creates a
> >>believable Phantasm to non-voluntary subjects?
> >
>
> Well, Illusionary Object has been an unoffical standard in our game (that
> is to say we all agree that such a spell exists, and know exactly what
> the formula, game-stat wise, would be.. just no one has actually sat down
> and written it up.)
>
I got fed up with this one, all the FASA spells are 'obvious'
illusions. I therefore wrote up a dismantling of the illustion spells
and what you get for what drain, a complex full sensory illusion
against non-voluntary targets (ie not an obvious fake) comes out
about ((F/2)+6)D! so although powerful not the sort of spell you play
about with.
I just when and checked and i did send the file about this to Adam
for the Shadowrun supplemental, i just cannot remember off hand which
of the things i sent him got into issue 3 and which didn't. But
something offical even if its just detail up the spell design system
would be a benefit in SR3 plus say a couple of non voluntary but
fairly specific spells (eg one sense, moderate detail).

Mark
Message no. 9
From: Mike Bobroff <AirWisp@***.COM>
Subject: Re: Request for SR3 Magic
Date: Mon, 29 Sep 1997 13:20:43 -0400
In a message dated 97-09-29 11:09:12 EDT, you write:

> I got fed up with this one, all the FASA spells are 'obvious'
> illusions. I therefore wrote up a dismantling of the illustion spells
> and what you get for what drain, a complex full sensory illusion
> against non-voluntary targets (ie not an obvious fake) comes out
> about ((F/2)+6)D! so although powerful not the sort of spell you play
> about with.

Did you remember to incorporate the physical component to the spell ? This
would also give the spell a physical component.

Also, have you ever considered performing a quest of power (what a great-form
quest is for spirits, but for spells instead) ? In our home games, quests of
power are used to make the spells more vibrant, more powerful, and their is
drain associated with doing a quest of power. The drain is the (force of the
spell)S (if it is a D drain spell, then the drain category will be a D). A
note, the drain from casting the spell and the Quest Of Power are resisted on
the same drain resistance test.





> I just when and checked and i did send the file about this to Adam
> for the Shadowrun supplemental, i just cannot remember off hand which
> of the things i sent him got into issue 3 and which didn't. But
> something offical even if its just detail up the spell design system
> would be a benefit in SR3 plus say a couple of non voluntary but
> fairly specific spells (eg one sense, moderate detail).
Message no. 10
From: Mark Steedman <M.J.Steedman@***.RGU.AC.UK>
Subject: Re: Request for SR3 Magic
Date: Tue, 30 Sep 1997 11:07:55 GMT
Mike Bobroff writes
>
> Did you remember to incorporate the physical component to the spell ? This
> would also give the spell a physical component.
>
illusion spells, i assume so, i do have the file about it here but
only in .rtf format and not enough time to check that. The 'trid'
illusion spells already have that anyway.

> Also, have you ever considered performing a quest of power (what a great-form
> quest is for spirits, but for spells instead) ?
For learning spells regularly, standard GR2 and far easier to do a
rating 10 quest than roll a 20! for learn spell.

> In our home games, quests of
> power are used to make the spells more vibrant, more powerful, and their is
> drain associated with doing a quest of power. The drain is the (force of the
> spell)S (if it is a D drain spell, then the drain category will be a D). A
> note, the drain from casting the spell and the Quest Of Power are resisted on
> the same drain resistance test.
>
sounds interesting but unreleated to above illusion magic.

Can you say more.

Mark
Message no. 11
From: Timothy Little <t_little@**********.UTAS.EDU.AU>
Subject: Re: Request for SR3 Magic
Date: Tue, 7 Oct 1997 13:44:24 +1100
At 12:46 PM 9/26/97 -0400, Steve wrote:
>
>Brett Borger <bxb121@***.EDU> writes:
>>
>>Can we PLEASE have a main-book illusion spell that creates a
>>believable Phantasm to non-voluntary subjects?
>
>I'll see what I can do. I think such a spell would have to be fairly specific
>(like the Illusory Object spell you mentioned) in order to avoid abuse,
>especially using it to duplicate the effects of other illusion spells like
>Mask.

In my game, a character designed a fairly general Physical Illusion. The
restrictions are merely that it can only be up to troll-sized, and any
changes in the illusion must be willed by the caster.

It can't make something invisible - that would require that light travel
around an object, and it's not designed for that - use Invisibility.
It can't duplicate Mask, except on people who are very still - the caster
would have to anticipate every slight movement of the target.
It could duplicate Vehicle Mask on very small vehicles.
It won't automatically disorient or confuse a target - it has no effect on
the internal state of anyone, just the external appearance.

It also has +2D drain, or +4D for area-effect version.

--
Little One
Message no. 12
From: "J. Keith Henry" <Ereskanti@***.COM>
Subject: Re: Request for SR3 Magic
Date: Tue, 7 Oct 1997 22:50:49 -0400
In a message dated 97-10-07 08:17:29 EDT, t_little@**********.UTAS.EDU.AU
(Timothy Little) writes:

> In my game, a character designed a fairly general Physical Illusion. The
> restrictions are merely that it can only be up to troll-sized, and any
> changes in the illusion must be willed by the caster.

Okay, so it's sustained...no problem...

> It can't make something invisible - that would require that light travel
> around an object, and it's not designed for that - use Invisibility.
> It can't duplicate Mask, except on people who are very still - the caster
> would have to anticipate every slight movement of the target.
> It could duplicate Vehicle Mask on very small vehicles.
> It won't automatically disorient or confuse a target - it has no effect on
> the internal state of anyone, just the external appearance.

Not so difficult.

> It also has +2D drain, or +4D for area-effect version.

Okay, now I have to sit back and ask "What They?!?!?!?!?!?" Not all that
long ago, someone made the comment about spell design (Gurth and I?) and the
understanding of "Common Sense." I think this is where that needs to be
looked at a bit more carefully.
-K
Message no. 13
From: Timothy Little <t_little@**********.UTAS.EDU.AU>
Subject: Re: Request for SR3 Magic
Date: Thu, 9 Oct 1997 12:08:08 +1100
At 10:50 PM 10/7/97 -0400, K wrote:

>In a message dated 97-10-07 08:17:29 EDT, t_little@**********.UTAS.EDU.AU
>(Timothy Little) writes:
>
>> In my game, a character designed a fairly general Physical Illusion. The
>> restrictions are merely that it can only be up to troll-sized, and any
>> changes in the illusion must be willed by the caster.
...
>> It also has +2D drain, or +4D for area-effect version.
>
>Okay, now I have to sit back and ask "What They?!?!?!?!?!?" Not all that
>long ago, someone made the comment about spell design (Gurth and I?) and the
>understanding of "Common Sense." I think this is where that needs to be
>looked at a bit more carefully.

I forgot to mention that it is capable of creating very realistic
multi-sensory illusions. You create an illusion of a fire elemental, and
(if you have had any experience with them) you don't need to consciously
think about every shimmer of flame - the spell fills in the details. You
hear the crackling bursts of burning air, feel the wash of radiant heat
over your body, and smell scorched plascrete from where it's standing.

Of course, this is if you get about 3 or more 4's on the cast, bringing the
perception TN# to see through it up to 6 or more...

--
Tim Little

--
Little One
Message no. 14
From: "J. Keith Henry" <Ereskanti@***.COM>
Subject: Re: Request for SR3 Magic
Date: Thu, 9 Oct 1997 23:26:22 -0400
In a message dated 97-10-09 13:21:23 EDT, t_little@**********.UTAS.EDU.AU
(Timothy Little) writes:

>
> I forgot to mention that it is capable of creating very realistic
> multi-sensory illusions. You create an illusion of a fire elemental, and
> (if you have had any experience with them) you don't need to consciously
> think about every shimmer of flame - the spell fills in the details. You
> hear the crackling bursts of burning air, feel the wash of radiant heat
> over your body, and smell scorched plascrete from where it's standing.
>
> Of course, this is if you get about 3 or more 4's on the cast, bringing
the
> perception TN# to see through it up to 6 or more...
>
Okay, suddenly it all makes a little more sense. By the way Tim, try the
following out (sorry, I've got to beat this over the head I know) ... try a
Quest of Power (we call it a "Quest of Phantasms") on the spell, with the
spell force as the force of the quest. Have that magic become just a little
bit more interesting....
-K
Message no. 15
From: Tim Cooper <z-i-m@****.COM>
Subject: Re: Request for SR3 Magic
Date: Sun, 12 Oct 1997 20:05:59 EDT
On Thu, 9 Oct 1997 23:26:22 -0400 "J. Keith Henry" <Ereskanti@***.COM>
writes:
>Okay, suddenly it all makes a little more sense. By the way Tim, try
the
>following out (sorry, I've got to beat this over the head I know) ...
try a
>Quest of Power (we call it a "Quest of Phantasms") on the spell, with
the
>spell force as the force of the quest. Have that magic become just a
little
>bit more interesting....

Doesn't that effectively double (or triple, or more) the drain of the
spell?

~Tim (not Little :)
Message no. 16
From: "J. Keith Henry" <Ereskanti@***.COM>
Subject: Re: Request for SR3 Magic
Date: Mon, 13 Oct 1997 00:09:18 -0400
In a message dated 97-10-12 20:07:29 EDT, z-i-m@****.COM writes:

> >Quest of Power (we call it a "Quest of Phantasms") on the spell, with
> the
> >spell force as the force of the quest. Have that magic become just a
> little
> >bit more interesting....
>
> Doesn't that effectively double (or triple, or more) the drain of the
> spell?
>
>
It give's two drain tests, instead of the normal one. What exactly it does?
We actually begin treating such spells as a "proactive" in certain
instances. Detailing is enhanced, AND the spell is no longer directly
assensable as "oh look, I'm seeing it in the Astral, its an illusion." It
gets the masking help Illusions long since needed. Also, we allow for damage
(stun only) to occur, with no option for damage overflow from the mental to
the physical (if the target "takes" damage to a deadly, they simply black
out, recover as per Mental Damage, and go on (assuming the caster of the
spell does so).

-Keith

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