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Message no. 1
From: mamos@*****.com (Mike Amos)
Subject: Resolution, I hope
Date: Tue, 18 Feb 2003 08:33:30 -0700
Okay, I'm fairly sure we are all saying the same thing here.

I realize that legally Shadowrun is as Adam described it. Anything licensed
by the correct people ( a whole different can of worms) that takes place in
approximately the correct time period, involving magic, technology, the
goblinization, four races of metahumanity, these kinds of things.
Where I am dissenting from the majority and am legally and technically
incorrect is that I believe the origin of the product is very important as
well. For example, Shadowrun was first and RPG. Thus just as important as
the universe it exists in is the system that runs it. This is where I feel
that these toys fall out of the universe. Although I do recognize the
correctness of Adams position, basically I'm deciding to just be wrong.

> hrmmm... Here's an analogous example for Mike...
>
> Star Wars. What is it? A Movie, a game, a world, a book, an RPG? A
> T-Shirt? A Toy? A Comic Book? Or all of the above?

This was actually what I thought of to try to explain it to myself, but I
found that to me Star Wars is the first three movies. Now again I realize
the license of Star Wars extend far beyond this. However, anyone will tell
you that anything that doesn't jive with the first three movies is
considered noncanon and possibly loses the entire name of Star Wars.
Anything that has been created since either advertises that universe (action
figures, t-shirts, posters) or is expected to exist in the same universe
generated by the first three movies (the second three movies {episodes 1-3},
the new MMORPG, the RPG). This is why Lucas is beating his head against the
wall trying (and failing) to make the new movies with the originals. Because
the wholes system and license is based on those movies.


Basically if they had just made action figures I might hate them for being
ugly, but they would still exist in the sixth world to me. But these new
figures are designed to use a different system and specifically designed to
behave differently than the characters of the characters of the Shadowrun
Universe behave. This is why I dissent from the majority and say I don't
feel they are really a part of the same Universe, even if I openly accept
that they are indeed part of the same license.

And to address one persons comment. They were correct when they implied that
I was offended that the name of such a fine product as Shadowrun was being
put on such an apparent piece of crap.

Anyhow I feel not much more can be gained by further debate of my concerns.
I admit to the legal correctness of Adam's position. I just feel, and it has
been stated, that this is not the same game, even though it is being called
by the same name. This is where my issue lies. That and the pictures make
them look like crap.
Message no. 2
From: lordmountainlion@***.rr.com (Scott Peterson)
Subject: Resolution, I hope
Date: Tue, 18 Feb 2003 08:58:54 -0700
SR datadump test, sorry for the bandwith error but god things are silly with
my account. Someone email me private and say yeah or nay if tis worked.

Scott the 'OMG thats an awesom K rifle' Peterson
----- Original Message -----
From: "Mike Amos" <mamos@*****.com>
To: "'Shadowrun Discussion'" <shadowrn@*****.dumpshock.com>
Sent: Tuesday, February 18, 2003 8:33 AM
Subject: Resolution, I hope


> Okay, I'm fairly sure we are all saying the same thing here.
>
> I realize that legally Shadowrun is as Adam described it. Anything
licensed
> by the correct people ( a whole different can of worms) that takes place
in
> approximately the correct time period, involving magic, technology, the
> goblinization, four races of metahumanity, these kinds of things.
> Where I am dissenting from the majority and am legally and technically
> incorrect is that I believe the origin of the product is very important as
> well. For example, Shadowrun was first and RPG. Thus just as important as
> the universe it exists in is the system that runs it. This is where I feel
> that these toys fall out of the universe. Although I do recognize the
> correctness of Adams position, basically I'm deciding to just be wrong.
>
> > hrmmm... Here's an analogous example for Mike...
> >
> > Star Wars. What is it? A Movie, a game, a world, a book, an RPG? A
> > T-Shirt? A Toy? A Comic Book? Or all of the above?
>
> This was actually what I thought of to try to explain it to myself, but I
> found that to me Star Wars is the first three movies. Now again I realize
> the license of Star Wars extend far beyond this. However, anyone will tell
> you that anything that doesn't jive with the first three movies is
> considered noncanon and possibly loses the entire name of Star Wars.
> Anything that has been created since either advertises that universe
(action
> figures, t-shirts, posters) or is expected to exist in the same universe
> generated by the first three movies (the second three movies {episodes
1-3},
> the new MMORPG, the RPG). This is why Lucas is beating his head against
the
> wall trying (and failing) to make the new movies with the originals.
Because
> the wholes system and license is based on those movies.
>
>
> Basically if they had just made action figures I might hate them for being
> ugly, but they would still exist in the sixth world to me. But these new
> figures are designed to use a different system and specifically designed
to
> behave differently than the characters of the characters of the Shadowrun
> Universe behave. This is why I dissent from the majority and say I don't
> feel they are really a part of the same Universe, even if I openly accept
> that they are indeed part of the same license.
>
> And to address one persons comment. They were correct when they implied
that
> I was offended that the name of such a fine product as Shadowrun was being
> put on such an apparent piece of crap.
>
> Anyhow I feel not much more can be gained by further debate of my
concerns.
> I admit to the legal correctness of Adam's position. I just feel, and it
has
> been stated, that this is not the same game, even though it is being
called
> by the same name. This is where my issue lies. That and the pictures make
> them look like crap.
>
Message no. 3
From: paul@*********.demon.co.uk (Paul Squires)
Subject: Resolution, I hope
Date: Tue, 18 Feb 2003 16:10:14 +0000
In message
<82D93043CE32944087DEEAB8BDFB35DA1DB82D@************.utcnet.com>, Mike
Amos <mamos@*****.com> writes
>Okay, I'm fairly sure we are all saying the same thing here.

What bothers me is that something could be introduced to improve the
other game, which directly affects the RPG. Say, for instance, that they
can sell a great dragon model but need a marketable name for it - how
about Dunkelzahn - bring him back from the dead just to sell some
models.

A similar situation exists in my other game (WFRP) - the IP is held by
Games Workshop (GW) and was licensed until recently by Hogshead. GW's
prime concern is making money from miniature sales from Warhammer
Fantasy Battle. Any changes to the world that they make needs to be
reflected in the products produced by the licensee. Anything done by the
licensee needs to be approved by GW - and they won't approve anything
that may harm their core business. It leads to directly contradictory
rules and events within the game world (and entire countries suffering
from split personalities)

I realise that the two are not entirely similar, but as soon as models
make more money than the RPG you know which will suffer.
--
Paul Squires
paul@*********.demon.co.uk
Message no. 4
From: mamos@*****.com (Mike Amos)
Subject: Resolution, I hope
Date: Tue, 18 Feb 2003 09:14:14 -0700
> What bothers me is that something could be introduced to improve the
> other game, which directly affects the RPG. Say, for
> instance, that they
> can sell a great dragon model but need a marketable name for it - how
> about Dunkelzahn - bring him back from the dead just to sell some
> models.


Well, Adam did say one of the creators of Shadowrun still works for the
creators of Duals. I believe this is where we will have to trust his vision
enough to not corrupt his own world for a buck. Besides, I wouldn't be
suprised if someone wasn't working on bringing him back in some way anyhow.
Message no. 5
From: bull@*********.com (Bull)
Subject: Resolution, I hope
Date: Tue, 18 Feb 2003 18:51:39 -0500
At 09:14 AM 2/18/2003 -0700, you wrote:
>Well, Adam did say one of the creators of Shadowrun still works for the
>creators of Duals. I believe this is where we will have to trust his vision
>enough to not corrupt his own world for a buck. Besides, I wouldn't be
>suprised if someone wasn't working on bringing him back in some way anyhow.

Actually, one of the creators of Shadowrun OWNS Wizkids, and AFAIK, Mike
Mulvihill, the SR Line Developer for FASA is one of the (if not THE) main
creators of Duels. Mike also manages the Shadowrun property for Wizkids,
approving Shadowrun products created under license.

All involved with Shadowrun love the game and love the world. I have every
bit of faith in them to stay true to the world.

Bull
Message no. 6
From: ianvs@**********.com (IANVS)
Subject: Resolution, I hope
Date: Wed, 19 Feb 2003 08:22:23 -0500
Once Upon A Time Paul Squires wrote,

>What bothers me is that something could be introduced to improve the
>other game, which directly affects the RPG. Say, for instance, that they
>can sell a great dragon model but need a marketable name for it - how
>about Dunkelzahn - bring him back from the dead just to sell some
>models.

Why would they need to bring him back from the dead just to make a
model of him?
Message no. 7
From: cmd_jackryan@***.de (Phillip Gawlowski)
Subject: Resolution, I hope
Date: Wed, 19 Feb 2003 14:28:57 +0100
On Wed, 19 Feb 2003 08:22:23 -0500, IANVS <ianvs@**********.com> wrote:


> Why would they need to bring him back from the dead just to make a model
> of him?

Who says he is dead, anyways?

It could all be a plan by the dragon.

It's magic, after all :-D

--
Phillip Gawlowski
GameMaster and GeneralIdiot
Message no. 8
From: mamos@*****.com (Mike Amos)
Subject: Resolution, I hope
Date: Wed, 19 Feb 2003 07:52:37 -0700
> All involved with Shadowrun love the game and love the world.
> I have every
> bit of faith in them to stay true to the world.
>
> Bull

Ah, yes Bull. I was unaware of who is working for whom, but that was the
basic point of that post if I recall. To paraphrase, there are people
involved with this project who are very closely endeared to Shadowrun, we
shall have to trust their judgement.
Message no. 9
From: mooseshagger@*******.com (Captain Canuck)
Subject: Resolution, I hope
Date: Wed, 19 Feb 2003 06:59:52 -0800
>Ah, yes Bull. I was unaware of who is working for whom, but that was the
>basic point of that post if I recall. To paraphrase, there are people
>involved with this project who are very closely endeared to Shadowrun, we
>shall have to trust their judgement.
>

What, like we trusted George Lucas's judgment with Star Wars I & II?



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Message no. 10
From: paul@*********.demon.co.uk (Paul Squires)
Subject: Resolution, I hope
Date: Wed, 19 Feb 2003 16:25:29 +0000
In message <oprkufqju2pxdzb4@****.web.de>, Phillip Gawlowski
<cmd_jackryan@***.de> writes
>On Wed, 19 Feb 2003 08:22:23 -0500, IANVS <ianvs@**********.com> wrote:
>
>
>> Why would they need to bring him back from the dead just to make a
>>model of him?
>
>Who says he is dead, anyways?
>
>It could all be a plan by the dragon.
>
>It's magic, after all :-D
>

Would you buy a model of a character that wasn't going to actually take
part in any action? It was merely an example of something that _could_
be done in order to substantiate my point that what is good for SR the
RPG is not necessarily good for SR <other product> and vice versa.

--
Paul Squires
paul@*********.demon.co.uk
Message no. 11
From: mattgbond@********.com (Matthew Bond)
Subject: Resolution, I hope
Date: Wed, 19 Feb 2003 19:41:47 -0000
Paul Squires wrote:
> In message <oprkufqju2pxdzb4@****.web.de>, Phillip Gawlowski
> <cmd_jackryan@***.de> writes
>> On Wed, 19 Feb 2003 08:22:23 -0500, IANVS <ianvs@**********.com>
>> wrote:
>>
>>
>>> Why would they need to bring him back from the dead just to make a
>>> model of him?
>>
>> Who says he is dead, anyways?
>>
>> It could all be a plan by the dragon.
>>
>> It's magic, after all :-D
>>
>
> Would you buy a model of a character that wasn't going to actually
> take part in any action? It was merely an example of something that
> _could_ be done in order to substantiate my point that what is good
> for SR the RPG is not necessarily good for SR <other product> and
> vice versa.

Who's to say that Shadowrun: Duels have to occur later in the timeline
than Dunkies death....

Matt
Message no. 12
From: bandwidthoracle@*********.net (Bandwidth Oracle)
Subject: Resolution, I hope
Date: Wed, 19 Feb 2003 19:03:38 -0700
<snip>
>On Wednesday, February 19, 2003, at 09:25 AM, Paul Squires wrote:
>It was merely an example of something that _could_ be done in order to
> substantiate my point that what is good for SR the RPG is not
necessarily good for SR
> <other product> and vice versa.
> --
> Paul Squires
> paul@*********.demon.co.uk
>
My only concern relates to this. I'm only worried I'll have to buy
duel stuff to get some of the Shadowrun story (Ie: part of the events
for 2065 only being sold in duel format), but I doubt my fear is
founded.
------------------------------------------------------------------------
--------------
Oh Yeah! I'd like to see this monkey who codes better than I do.
Message no. 13
From: l-hansen@*****.tele.dk (Lars Wagner Hansen)
Subject: Resolution, I hope
Date: Tue, 4 Mar 2003 19:13:57 +0100
From: "IANVS" <ianvs@**********.com>
> Once Upon A Time Paul Squires wrote,
>
> >What bothers me is that something could be introduced to improve the
> >other game, which directly affects the RPG. Say, for instance, that they
> >can sell a great dragon model but need a marketable name for it - how
> >about Dunkelzahn - bring him back from the dead just to sell some
> >models.
>
> Why would they need to bring him back from the dead just to make a
> model of him?

Which reminds me: Would all of you who happen to have bought the Ral Partha
miniature of Dunkelzahn, please send them to me, so I can make sure that
all the minis are destroyed since he is dead!

Thanks in advance.

:-)

Lars
Message no. 14
From: anders@**********.com (Anders Swenson)
Subject: Resolution, I hope
Date: Wed, 05 Mar 2003 10:29:24 -0800
> Which reminds me: Would all of you who happen to have bought the Ral Partha
> miniature of Dunkelzahn, please send them to me, so I can make sure that
> all the minis are destroyed since he is dead!
>
> Thanks in advance.
>
> :-)
>
> Lars
After you collect all the Napoleon statuettes!
--Anders

Further Reading

If you enjoyed reading about Resolution, I hope, you may also be interested in:

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These messages were posted a long time ago on a mailing list far, far away. The copyright to their contents probably lies with the original authors of the individual messages, but since they were published in an electronic forum that anyone could subscribe to, and the logs were available to subscribers and most likely non-subscribers as well, it's felt that re-publishing them here is a kind of public service.