Logs for ShadowRN and Associated Mailing Lists

From:	Ubiquitous <weberm@*******.net>
Subject:	Re[SR2]: Fat-bac
Date:	Wed, 4 Sep 1996 16:36:06 -0400 (EDT)

Message no. 1 At 02:41 PM 9/4/96 -0400, chris wrote:

> Hmmm, I don't know if I agree with this.....if you go look at Magister's
> comments on the FAB-Net entry you see that he responds to some drekheaded
> comment about astral entities having "casual mass". The slant that
> Magister puts on it however is this(paraphrased): an astrally active aura
> CANNOT interact with a non-astral aura. Period. What that means is that
> even if you have a living organism that is microscopic, as long as it is
> large enough to have an aura then the astral entity cannot effect it in
> any way, saht or form. Therefore, if I am wandering down a forest trail
> (for whatever reason) and I don't see that tiny piece of grass sticking
> up, I WILL trip over it, simply because I cannot affect it, and I cannot
> pass through it. This gets just a bit more complicated when you turn the
> living entity into a net and drop it over someone. Now then, since the
> net has an actual living presence it would tend to push the mage out of
> the way. Of course, if the net were OVER him and thus being dragged down
> (gravity does that I hear) the mage will get the trapped between the
> proverbial FAB-net and Mother Earth and which will cause "forced
> interaction" between the net's aura and that of the mage. I don't
> believe that this would damage the mage however. Cause EXTREME pain?
> Sure. But this is not just a case of a net cutting into a mage....it is
> the interaction of 2 auras which, if it were to cause damage, would
> damage BOTH of the auras involved and the rules specifically state that
> an astrally projecting mage cannot in any way affect the physical plane.
> Of course, while he is trapped under the net, he can't get back to his
> own body and can start taking damage and eventually die that way, but not
> directly from the net itself. In the case of the FAB-club, if the astral
> entity were able to move freely, then the club would just punch him
out of
> the way...there is nothing forcing the interaction of the auras and thus,
> the living aura takes precedence, and moves the mage. OTOH, if the mage
> is trapped under a net and is hit with a club, then again it will cause
> pain but not any damage, because then BOTH auras would be taking damage
> and that is not possible.

Good explanation, but you never stated what the net would do (float in
air?). Doooh!

--
"I dyde shyte thre grete toordes." Fables of Aesop,
Caxton translation,
V15 1484

From:	dbuehrer@****.org (David Buehrer)
Subject:	Re: Re[SR2]: Fat-bac
Date:	Wed, 4 Sep 1996 15:04:55 -0600 (MDT)

Message no. 2 Ubiquitous wrote:
|
[snip: talking about interaction between an astral mage and a FB net]
|
|Good explanation, but you never stated what the net would do (float in
|air?). Doooh!

No, because the mage's astral form can't affect the
physical. But then you run into a problem because the net
falls flat to the ground. The mage's astral form can't
suspend the net in any way according to the rules. Now you
have the mage's astral form completely flattened between
the net and the ground. And if the mage can survive being
flattened then he can squeeze free. Unless, being
flattened like that causes really sucks and causes mind
numbing pain that won't allow the mage to take any actions
other than scream in horrific agony.

I think that GMs will just have to make a house rule to
handle some of the discrepancies. I'm leaning toward,
"Astral beings pass through anything that exists purely on
the physical and cannot interact with the physical." and
Fat Bacteria doesn't exist.

-David

/^\/^\/^\/^\/^\/^\/^\/^\ dbuehrer@****.org /^\/^\/^\/^\/^\/^\/^\/^\
"His thoughts tumbled in his head, making and breaking alliances like
underpants in a dryer without Cling Free."
~~~~~~http://www.geocities.com/TimesSquare/1068/homepage.htm~~~~~~~

From:	Ubiquitous <weberm@*******.net>
Subject:	Re: Re[SR2]: Fat-bac
Date:	Wed, 4 Sep 1996 19:30:22 -0400 (EDT)

Message no. 3 At 03:04 PM 9/4/96 -0600, David wrote:
>Ubiquitous wrote:

>|Good explanation, but you never stated what the net would do (float in
>|air?). Doooh!
>
>No, because the mage's astral form can't affect the
>physical. But then you run into a problem because the net
>falls flat to the ground. The mage's astral form can't
>suspend the net in any way according to the rules. Now you
>have the mage's astral form completely flattened between
>the net and the ground. And if the mage can survive being
>flattened then he can squeeze free. Unless, being
>flattened like that causes really sucks and causes mind
>numbing pain that won't allow the mage to take any actions
>other than scream in horrific agony.
>
>I think that GMs will just have to make a house rule to
>handle some of the discrepancies. I'm leaning toward,
>"Astral beings pass through anything that exists purely on
>the physical and cannot interact with the physical." and
>Fat Bacteria doesn't exist.

That's exactly why I hate FAT; it breaks all the rules. :-(

--
"I dyde shyte thre grete toordes." Fables of Aesop,
Caxton translation,
V15 1484

From:	Faux Pas <fauxpas@******.net>
Subject:	Re: Re[SR2]: Fat-bac
Date:	Thu, 5 Sep 1996 02:21:03 -0500

Message no. 4 > Sure. But this is not just a case of a net cutting into a mage....it is
> the interaction of 2 auras which, if it were to cause damage, would
> damage BOTH of the auras involved and the rules specifically state that
> an astrally projecting mage cannot in any way affect the physical plane.

Oddly enough, I cannot find this rule that we've been throwing around for
this arguement. The nearest thing I can find is on page 149 of the SR2 rule
book. In the section "Spells and Astral Space", the text reads: "This
[grounding a spell through an aura] is because of the previously stated rule
that things in astral space cannot directly affect non-magical things in the
real world, unless there is a bridge." The bridge is created by the mage
synchronizing auras when casting spells and will only work if the mage is
physically present in physical space.

Could someone point out where in the rules it specifically says "an astrally
projecting mage cannot -in any way- affect [objects on] the physical plane."
Because unless I've missed something in my re-reads of the section, the
rules don't say that.

>>I think that GMs will just have to make a house rule to
>>handle some of the discrepancies. I'm leaning toward,
>>"Astral beings pass through anything that exists purely on
>>the physical and cannot interact with the physical." and
>>Fat Bacteria doesn't exist.
>
>That's exactly why I hate FAT; it breaks all the rules. :-(

Then what happens when a line of people on the physical plane stand shoulder
to shoulder and run at where an astral mage is? Does the astral mage pass
through this human wall? Get pushed aside? If the mage can pass through
the human wall, then why can't he pass through other objects that are
"alive" (the planet, other people, and yes, a FAB-net). If he is pushed
aside, then the FAB-net could entrap an astral body.

According to the SR2 rule book, the Earth is a living thing in magical
terms, and thus corporeal in astral space. It is not possible to pass
through things that are alive, no matter at what level, in astral space.
[page 145] And FAB is alive. So the mage would be pushed aside.

Now let's say that there are two lines of people doing this, running at each
other and for some reason the mage decides not to move up, down, left, or
right. What happens? He gets trapped between the two lines. On the
physical plane, you'd see a gap between the two lines where the mage's
astral form is.

So the FAB-net would drop the mage to the floor and wrap over the mage's
astral form - the bridge in this case would be the aura of the FAB-net. Two
auras cannot intersect ["Non-magical living things have a dormant astral
form, an aura that is visible and corporeal in astral space", SR2, p145.
"Corporeal" is the key word here], so the net would appear to hang in the air.

The FAB-club would likewise have an aura. Two auras cannot occupy the same
space, so the FAB-club would work as a real, physical club against a real,
physical person.

Why not try: "Astral beings cannot interact with anything that exists on
the physical plane that is neither assensing, projecting, or bridging the
link between physical and astral [as in a spell lock or active foci]. Even
if an object has bridged the link between the two planes, the purely astral
being cannot physically manipulate that object if the object exists (in part
or in whole) on the physical plane." This still keeps FAB as a
rules-friendly object, yet keeps astral mages from picking up a "living"
dagger and cutting some throats.

So then, what are all these rules that FAB breaks?
-Thomas Deeny
the Cartoonist at large is on the web at www2.cy-net.net/~fauxpas

"We were told to turn it down, stuff got broken, and everyone got naked. It
was a successful party."
-Marcus "DoubleDaves will have to name one of their stores after me" Drew.

From:	"Gurth" <gurth@******.nl>
Subject:	Re: Re[SR2]: Fat-bac
Date:	Thu, 5 Sep 1996 10:46:20 +0100

Message no. 5 Ubiquitous said on 16:36/ 4 Sep 96...

> Good explanation, but you never stated what the net would do (float in
> air?). Doooh!

I don't think so, since the astral magician cannot affect physical
objects. The FAB net belongs to that category, so it falls to the ground
like it would do when the astral magician wasn't there.

--
Gurth@******.nl - http://www.xs4all.nl/~gurth/index.html
The wrong way is trying to make everybody else do it the right way.
-> NERPS Project Leader & Unofficial Shadowrun Guru <-
-> The Plastic Warriors Page: http://www.xs4all.nl/~gurth/plastic.html <-

-----BEGIN GEEK CODE BLOCK-----
Version 3.1:
GAT/! d-(dpu) s:- !a>? C+(++)@ U P L E? W(++) N o? K- w+ O V? PS+ PE
Y PGP- t(+) 5+ X++ R+++>$ tv+(++) b++@ DI? D+ G(++) e h! !r(---) y?
------END GEEK CODE BLOCK------

From:	"Gurth" <gurth@******.nl>
Subject:	Re: Re[SR2]: Fat-bac
Date:	Thu, 5 Sep 1996 10:46:20 +0100

Message no. 6 David Buehrer said on 15:04/ 4 Sep 96...

> I think that GMs will just have to make a house rule to handle some of
> the discrepancies. I'm leaning toward, "Astral beings pass through
> anything that exists purely on the physical and cannot interact with the
> physical." and Fat Bacteria doesn't exist.

So what if somebody makes a net of, say, ivy? (No, Damion, don't say it :)
Granted, it won't happen a lot, but I see ways in which you could cut the
ivy loose from a wall, while still letting it live, and then catching an
astral magician under it. That would cause the same problems as with a FAB
net, namely the ivy "net" falls flat onto the ground, and the magician is
between the earth and the net, with an almost 0 thickness...

--
Gurth@******.nl - http://www.xs4all.nl/~gurth/index.html
The wrong way is trying to make everybody else do it the right way.
-> NERPS Project Leader & Unofficial Shadowrun Guru <-
-> The Plastic Warriors Page: http://www.xs4all.nl/~gurth/plastic.html <-

-----BEGIN GEEK CODE BLOCK-----
Version 3.1:
GAT/! d-(dpu) s:- !a>? C+(++)@ U P L E? W(++) N o? K- w+ O V? PS+ PE
Y PGP- t(+) 5+ X++ R+++>$ tv+(++) b++@ DI? D+ G(++) e h! !r(---) y?
------END GEEK CODE BLOCK------

From:	dbuehrer@****.org (David Buehrer)
Subject:	Re: Re[SR2]: Fat-bac
Date:	Thu, 5 Sep 1996 07:10:33 -0600 (MDT)

Message no. 7 Gurth wrote:
|
|David Buehrer said on 15:04/ 4 Sep 96...
|
|> I think that GMs will just have to make a house rule to handle some of
|> the discrepancies. I'm leaning toward, "Astral beings pass through
|> anything that exists purely on the physical and cannot interact with the
|> physical." and Fat Bacteria doesn't exist.
|
|So what if somebody makes a net of, say, ivy? (No, Damion, don't say it :)
|Granted, it won't happen a lot, but I see ways in which you could cut the
|ivy loose from a wall, while still letting it live, and then catching an
|astral magician under it. That would cause the same problems as with a FAB
|net, namely the ivy "net" falls flat onto the ground, and the magician is
|between the earth and the net, with an almost 0 thickness...

Right now I think that Granite's "watermelon seed" reaction is the best
solution.

-David

/^\/^\/^\/^\/^\/^\/^\/^\ dbuehrer@****.org /^\/^\/^\/^\/^\/^\/^\/^\
"His thoughts tumbled in his head, making and breaking alliances like
underpants in a dryer without Cling Free."
~~~~~~http://www.geocities.com/TimesSquare/1068/homepage.htm~~~~~~~

From:	GRANITE <granite@**.net>
Subject:	Re: Re[SR2]: Fat-bac
Date:	Thu, 05 Sep 1996 22:31:01 -0700

Message no. 8 David Buehrer wrote:
> Good point. Kinda like dark matter. Astronomers are pretty sure it's
> out there, but they just can't find it. Maybe dark matter is really
> the horrors (dark matter = horrors, get it? ;'D ...Um, you know, after
> thinking about it, that's a really scary thought. <starts looking for a
> hiding place>
>

Major Horror: "He knows..Seek him out and devour his pain.."

Flunkie Horror: "It shall be as you command! I shall feast long and deep on
his suffering...."
--
-------------------------------GRANITE
=================================================================
Lord, Grant Me The Serinity To Accept The Things I Cannot Change,
The Courage To Change The Things I Can,
And The Wisdom To Hide The Bodies Of Those People I Had To Kill
Because They Pissed Me Off.
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ShadowRunner's Serinity Prayer

Mailing List Logs for

Further Reading

Disclaimer