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Message no. 1
From: Tzeentch tzeentch666@*********.net
Subject: -REVIEW- Cannon Companion
Date: Mon, 10 Apr 2000 18:22:39 -0700
CANNON COMPANION REVIEW
Distilled: The "Cannon" part of this SR3 sourcebook ranges from the dull to
the ill-thought out while the "Companion" part contains the best rules
expansions to the game I've seen so far.
Rating: 5/10 (without the lame "gunz" material it would have been a 7/10)

The Cannon Companion is the newest sourcebook for FASA Corporations
burgeoning Shadowrun, Third Edition line. It attempts to compile and update
every weapon from previous sourcebooks in the First and Second Edition as
well as provide additional gear and rules for a variety of other subjects.

The title Cannon Companion is actually somewhat misleading, since
comparatively little of the book actually deals with firearms specifically.
In fact, only about half of the book deals with weapons at all. This lack of
focus is clearly evident in the overall usefulness of several sections (see
below). Although something in CC will appeal to almost every player -
everyone is bound to feel disappointed about the lack of information, depth,
or research on any one particular section.

I will cover the book from front to back, starting from the cover and
working to the back blurb. I will mainly be looking at:
1. Content: What does the section cover?
2. Art: How does the art look? Is it relevant to the section? Does the
artist display any strange breast fetish (*cough* Steve Prescott *cough*)?
3. Usefulness: How applicable is this to a game? Are the rules simple enough
to be easily integrated? Do the rules even make sense? Do they contradict
previous material from other SR3 books?
4. Technical accuracy: Shadowrun has a well-known problem with coherency and
even basic research. This is well known (or should be) so I'll try not to
point out problems that are a result of the Shadowrun system itself. But I
will try to point out basic flaws in research or even simple logic.
5. Other: Any other pearls of wisdom I throw into this will show up here.

THE COVER
Content
The cover appears to be by the same guy who does the VOR covers (Paul
Bonner). It might as well be a VOR cover. Same over-the-top comic styling.
It
depicts a troll (a very SHORT troll with a HUGE head) followed by some
ghoul-looking human who appears to have some intestinal problem. The troll
is firing some obscenely large belt-fed weapon into what appears to be a
sewer entrance. There are also several gears in the picture with no apparent
purpose.

Art
I covered this in the "content" section. Suffice to say it's even more
cartoonish then the Shadowrun, Third Edition cover. If you don't like the
new direction with Shadowrun covers you definitely won't like this one
either. If I had to assign a label to it, I'd place the new direction in
cover art as distinctly Warhammer 40,000-like.

Usefulness
A troll wearing tiger striped pants carrying an huge "gunz". I guess it fits
the title. Hmm, I notice the human in the background appears to have no
teeth - that might be symbolic of something - dunno.

Technical Accuracy
The trolls head is VASTLY out of proportion to the rest of his body. He
appears to be a midget of his metatype. His legs don't appear capable of
carrying even his upper body, much less the cannon he is holding.

Other
What is UP with the move to "four-color" style covers and art? It just looks
goofy and usually has less then nothing to do with anything in the Shadowrun
world.

TABLE OF CONTENTS AND CREDITS
Content
The table of contents are well laid out and intelligently organized.

Art
What art?

Usefulness
Very useful.

Technical Accuracy
As far as I can tell the page references are accurate.

Other
The usual cast of characters makes its appearance here. I've been told very
little of the playtest feedback was actually incorporated into this book -
so don't blame the playtesters if you don't like stuff from the book.

INTRODUCTION
Content
Brief overview of the sections in the book. Mike Mulvihill's "Developer's
Say" section.

Art
None

Usefulness
Not very enlightening.

Technical Accuracy
No bogus technical reasoning this time. Brief overview of why there are not
more guns in the book. That's about it.

Other
Read it once, you'll never look at it again.

MELEE WEAPONS
Content
Edged weapons, clubs, pole arms, and improvised weapons.

Art
One full-page piece that has nothing to do with the section (other then one
guy has a katana and the other has a mace). the other picture is a cropped
version of another piece in the book. No pictures of ANY of the weapons.

Usefulness
Mainly reprints of previously existing material. Some of the stuff (like the
macauitl) are more for "fluff" interest then actual usefulness.

Technical Accuracy
Well, we still have the infamous Centurion laser axe from SSC and now we
have vibro blades. Dunno if the authors are big fans of Rifts or what.

Other
Ugh. Well, other then the laser axe and vibro-blades I did not see anything
too far outside the realm of possibility. The macauitl seems a bit
overpowered given its purpose in real life (it was not designed to kill
necessarily).

PROJECTILE AND THROWING WEAPONS
Content
Covers arrowheads and bow accessories, slingshots, caltrops, and even
bodies.

Art
One little tiny piece of art that looks like they scanned it right off a
SRCCG card. It's very dark. Nothing special anyways - just a guy holding a
bow.

Usefulness
Well, I've never played a game with bow-users. Nor have I ever had the urge
to break out a slingshot or go dwarf-tossing so this section had no
usefulness for me other then a brief chuckle at the entry for using
metahuman bodies as improvised weapons. Once that wore off I note I'll
probably never use this section again.

Technical Accuracy
Explosive warheads on an arrow... I'm sure it's technically possible (if
VERY unlikely) but it just smacks of someone watching too much Rambo and
thinking "dem' dere explodin' arrows are cool!"

Other
Why no notes on tire damage from caltrops?

FIREARMS
Content
Pretty much every weapon from previous books and a few new ones. All updated
to SR3 stats. Format is a really short blurb with actual stats at the bottom
of the page (usually).

Art
There are 10 small single-gun illustrations and two larger illustrations (1
full page, 1 half-page). Only one looks like it belongs in Shadowrun. None
of the gun pictures bear any resemblance to how guns look in real life. And
one in particular looks like two different pictures cut and pasted together
(p. 21). The full page pic on p. 17 (the gunshop) is amusing but has little
to do with Shadowrun (unless gun stores in SR sell vindicators and grenades
to everyone).

In short, I'm glad there is not more of this stuff.

Usefulness
Well, if you like how SR models its weapon damages you'll love this stuff.
It has a few new toys, most of which add nothing new. I noted a new fetish
for polymer/resin construction and flechettes though. A high number of the
weapons in here are one or both.

One VERY annoying passage was the description for the Ruger Thunderbolt.
Now, why Lone Star would harass someone for owning one (it can be bought
with a permit) absolutely boggles me. Do cops now harass those who own their
model of service weapon? It's yet another cheap blow at Lone Star to make
them cookie-cutter adversaries.

Technical Accuracy
Nobody at FASA has yet figured out how their damage modeling is messed up.
High power weapons penetrate armor better - its a function of how the system
works. But we still have pistols that can penetrate armor easier then
assault rifles.

Still absolutely no plausible reason the "same" gun is available as both
caseless and cased versions. The technologies used are quite different, and
will result in weapons having VERY little in common except maybe name.

And the final problem is weapons like LMGs. There is no reason why their
damage code should be higher then that of an assault rifle. You can't even
apply the "barrel length" argument to this. Even games like Rifts get this
right.

Nothing wrong with the taser rules, but there are "phasers" out now that are
more high-tech and interesting.

The M24A3 water carbine... I'll cut and paste Raygun's comment here since he
summed it up better then me:

-->BEGIN QUOTE
"This is definitely a contestant for the FASA We Don't Know Jack Squat, But
This Sure Does Sound Cool award.

Here come the dissection... Okay we're firing regular ammunition under
water.
Not a problem, really. It can be done rather easily. Does it need some fancy
and unnecessarily complex pressurized chamber which draws air from the
DIVER'S FREAKING AIR SUPPLY? No. It does not. Not if the weapon uses cased
ammunition.

In this case, the only thing you need to be sure of is that the firing pin
hits the ass end of the primer cap with enough force to cause it to ignite
the powder charge. The explosion is contained within the sealed case. Once
the bullet starts moving forward, it pushed water out of its way. Behind the
bullet is a definite area of overpressure pushing the bullet. That will keep
water out of the barrel until the pressure drops, which will be long after
the bullet has left the muzzle.

"But I want my caseless ammunition!" Great. Then use the unnecessarily
complicated and expensive piece of garbage some FASA writer **** out. (How
much does it cost, BTW? I'll wager that it's stupid-cheap.) [Ed. It costs
1,000 nuyen]

Basically, if you seal off the section of the receiver where the hammer
strikes the firing pin (so its forward momentum isn't interrupted by water
in its path), you could use an M-16 under water without problems. It ain't
really that big a deal.

If they didn't rework ranges for this wonderful contraption, they missed out
on the big problem with firing conventional ammunition underwater. With
5.56mm NATO (Which is what I'm going to assume this weapon fires), you'll
get about 15-20 meters before the bullet starts yawing and losing energy due
to the added drag of water, which will cause accuracy to drop substantially.

That's plenty of range though, considering visibility is probably going to
be far less than that."
-->END QUOTE

Other
Adds very little to Shadowrun. Most of the weapons are cookie-cutters with
no redeeming differences.

HEAVY WEAPONS
Content
Has machineguns and cannons, grenades and mortars, missile and rocket
launchers, and then specialized launchers.

Art
There is one, count it one original picture in this chapter (which is quite
good btw). The other is a...full page black and white version of the cover!
The one new picture is an action scene.

Usefulness
If you were expecting Cannon Companion to "fix" the group munchkins favorite
weapon you are out of luck. Essentially these are updates of gear from
Fields of Fire.

Technical Accuracy
Still have the Whacky Panther Assault Cannon (tm) (now with anti-vehicle
ammo!). And the ever-wierd Ballista backpack rocket launcher and the new
(?) Vogeljager backpack SAM launcher. Still no reason for these to exist,
but
hey, at least the art in FoF was nice.

Other
The M79B1 LAW is based (obviously!) on the old M72 LAW
(http://www.fas.org/man/dod-101/sys/land/m72.htm). Nice touch, too bad the
M72 was actually ineffective in its actual intended role.

Two of the charts are screwed up (the one on p. 27 and the one on
p. 28).

SPECIAL WEAPONS
Content
Flame-throwers, laser weapons, "miscellaneous."

Art
What's that? Not a single illustration.

Usefulness
As much as people were enthusing over the flame-thrower rules I did not
think
they were anything people could not have came up with on their own. Still,
it's nice to see. Also has gyrojets, which I'm not glad to see.

Technical Accuracy
I can't see a big problem with the laser part, except they really go
overboard on laser capabilities. The ignore Ballistic armor, 1/2 Impact
armor is pretty bogus and overpowering - especially considering they are not
treated as AV weapons.

Other
The gyrojet...ugh. nice to see someone read about them (they were dumped in
the 1970s). But someone was watching too much "Runaway" when designing this.

A few minor spelling errors (laser sentence of the Laser Weapons
sentence on p. 30).

FIREARM ACCESSORIES
Content
Bayonets to target designators.

Art
Two pics. one that looks like another SRCCG scan, and a REALLY goofy one on
p. 34 that appears to show some sort of external arm holding the top of a
Panther (another note that noone has drawn that weapon the same).

Usefulness
Pretty useful actually.

Technical Accuracy
The Safe Target System sounds badly written and with worse
science handwaving then is usual. Let me get this straight, somehow this
system (based on location via GPS) can know when you aim at someone...uhh.
Pass that by me again, anyone else see the problem with that? It's just
plain handwaving, and saying it does it via GPS is pretty ridiculous when
you think about it. A system similar to this could probably be constructed
but what's the point?

Look before you shoot, don't point your weapon at anything you do not intend
to shoot: #1 rule of firearms safety.

Other
The extended range laser site.. Wow that aimpoint has to be pretty big to be
noticeable over 500 meters away (at night).

AMMUNITION AND EXPLOSIVES
Content
Ammunition types and explosives.

Art
One full-page and two smaller pieces. All three are pretty good.

Usefulness
Your groups munchkins will be all over this chapter. Oddly enough you can't
actually "build" claymores. The directional mine option does not really jive
with how claymores work.

Technical Accuracy
Where to begin? The Anti-Vehicle rounds are not well thought-out ("solid
bronze core" eh?) and seemingly only exist as a band-aid to the problems
with
the vehicle combat rules. They appear to be based on SLAP (Saboted Light
Armor Piercing) ammo but unlike SLAP this is based on nothing but an idea
that was "k00l".

Glazers. Wow, hope Glaser does not hear about this. I THINK its supposed to
be based on Glaser Safety Rounds, but these don't work anything like real
glasers. Essentially these are "exploding bullets".

Hi-C. Egads, what were they thinking! A densiplast round (case too I guess)
with a more powerful propellant charge so that is "almost as damaging as
regular rounds". This doubles the recoil penalty. Now, how the weapon can
handle that is beyond me, this in addition to the fact that plastic cases
are not normally seen as an possibility. Even so, this round would shatter
FAR easier then a metal projectile. I'd use the highest of either Ballistic
or Impact armor and DOUBLE the value.

Mercury rounds. Uhm, these apparently explode like the "glazers". Only thing
I've seen on the net about this is using mercury fulminate. And that reacts
with lead and becomes inert. But you can get around that obviously. Still
have problems believing its powerful enough to matter though. In real life,
exploding rounds of this type are designed to increase round fragmentation -
not blow up in a freakin' fireball.

Tracker rounds. Make up your mind! There are far better ways to plant a
tracker then by shooting at them. Not even very useful against game animals.
Assuming the tracking device even survives the impact! And pray tell how
long is the battery life on the little monster? Or even what its Flux Rating
is?!

Bola rounds for shotguns. These are a gimmick (I've actually used these and
Dragonsbreath ammo (which the "Temper" rounds are based on). Don't believe
the hype.

Shock Lock rounds. Frangible ammunition. This is new?

AV assault cannon round. Gee, now the Panther gets AV capability!

Gyrojet rounds. Seeking 6mm rockets that do 12M or 12M AV/APDS. Fun.

Other
Some of these ammo types did not have much thought applied to them. Others,
like the mines are actually pretty cool.

ARMOR AND GEAR
Content
"Fashionable" armor, military armor, battletac, tactical communications,
parachutes, diving gear.

Art
One full-age and two smaller pics. The full page pic shows a business man
burnt to a crisp but his suit is still wrinkle free. One shows a
cyberzombie(?) catching an explosion full-brunt and the last shows a guy who
pulls the ripcord on his parachute and it breaks.

Usefulness
Very useful actually. I quite enjoyed the armor fashions, and parachutes
were cool.

Technical Accuracy
Military-grade armor STILL is written so that no military would ever use it!
They should just have ditched it like they did the Stonewall. But nope,
still stuck with body armor that has better armor then some armored
vehicles. AV
ammo reduces its effectiveness, but that's a whole other can of worms.

Satellite links. Still stuck in the 80's (they just used the text from
Fields of Fire). Nobody there heard of Iridium? And yet *another* bogus
reference to
"hacking" satellites.

Other
Other then the so-called "military" grade armor this section is actually
VERY nice.

APPLIED SIMSENSE
Content
Skillsofts, BTLs, and PAB.

Art
Some of the best art in the book. Prescott shines here. From the first
picture on page. 58 to the chick being "reprogrammed" on p. 70. I liked
every piece (especially the hopped up dwarf on p. 62). There is one
full-page, one large half-page and and one smaller pic (hopped-up dwarf).

Usefulness
Wow. Some of the options verge on munchkin but there is enough here to
really flesh out people who are heavy users/abusers of skillsofts at the
very least. BTLs are handled nicely (if a bit too on the numbers side), and
PABs are the same as they were in Shadowbeat.

Technical Accuracy
Who knows?! The only note is that in base VR2 psychotropic black IC is
VASTLY more effective then PAB - which is yet another one of Shadowruns
incongruities.

Other
The PAB section is right out of Shadowbeat. Come on guys, you could at least
have changed the example so it did not look QUITE so much like a cut and
paste.

FIREARM DESIGN AND CUSTOMIZATION
Content
Building and modifying firearms.

Art
One full page picture (ork guy with a head in a bag), and other half-page of
a guy modifying a SMG.

Usefulness
Hmm. Well don't expect to be able to build any of the canon firearms using
these rules - you probably won't be able to. And that's part of the problem.
It's like this system exists in a vacuum. It's NOT a "Rigger 2" for weapons
by any stretch.

Technical Accuracy
Nothing overtly wrong from a consistency standpoint. Some of the base times
for weapon mods seem WAY too long. A bipod takes 8 hours to install? Geeze,
just get one that clips on! Why do extended clips take a modification time?
It's just a longer clip..Geeze. The desire to give extensive base times and
target numbers for even the most banal task was a bit too much, but use some
common sense (in short supply I know).

There are also the (now well known) problems with building tasers with the
rules and the whacked DP costs for items such as gas vents (which are FAR
cheaper bought after design). And then there is weapon weights and
Concealability - which can range from WAY too high to WAY too low.

Other
Despite some warnings at the beginning, I don't see this system as being too
much like Spud's Firearm Creation Guide or even Diamants Gun Production
Line. I'd go so far as to say its not even competition since they focus on
different aspects and the Cannon Companion version does even pretend to be
realistic or even self-consistent.

I won't be using this stuff except in a general way (and even then its a BIG
maybe). This chapter is probably the one that most groups will decide right
off if they will use it or not.

ADVANCED MELEE COMBAT
Content
Martial arts rules and advanced melee rules.

Art
One full page of a John Woo style kickfest (looks like wire-fu time!), a
smaller pic of a cyber-ninja (of course), and a small pic of a guy who looks
like he wire-fu'd some guy off a building with an open hand strike.

Usefulness
Uhm. Well if you dislike the attitude that "martial arts is just
better...well....because its COOL!" then you won't like this section much.
Martial arts are superior to normal brawling and boxing in pretty much every
way. If you have groups with lots of twinks I suggest thinking really hard
about whether you want to introduce this.

Technical Accuracy
It's been pointed out that the martial arts categories listed are incorrect.
I'm not a martial arts buff so I cannot comment.

Other
The system is generic and easy enough to modify to be easily used with your
own house system - expect to see a lot of house rule martial arts systems
that are based on these guidelines. Is it realistic or detailed? Not in the
least - but it does have enough good ideas to spark a gamemasters own ideas.

ADVANCED COMBAT RULES
Content
Ambidexterity, armor degradation, athletics and dodging, camouflage, cover
modifiers, fire and incendiaries, holding weapons, indirect fire, rates of
fire, missile combat, parachuting, recoil and strength, and more!

Art
One full page picture and two half page illustrations. All three are very
nice, although I thought the third one (two divers) looked a bit twonky for
some reason. The first illustration points out that Prescott REALLY has an
fascination with womens breasts ;) Laura Croft move over. I'm assuming the
chick in the first picture has some sort of spinal reinforcement.

Usefulness
Wow. If there is not at least two things in this section you cannot
immediately apply to an ongoing game I will be VERY surprised. At the very
least all gamemasters should look over the new "Searching Fire" and
"Suppressive Fire" rules.

The diving section reprints and expands the material from Cyberpirates to a
great deal. Some of the way they handled weapons and the like is a
bit...strange. But its fairly simplistic (probably the point).

I don't know where to begin, about the only things I personally have ZERO
use for are the Ambidexterity rules (which are pretty useless) and the
Signature Weapon rules.

Technical Accuracy
Supermachineguns are still pretty lame from a realism standpoint, but its a
lot better then their previous incarnation in Fields of Fire.

Other
I like this section a lot. I'm especially enamoured with the revamped Small
Unit Tactics and Missile rules. The new suppressive and searching fire rules
fill in some glaring holes in the combat system, and the new parachuting and
underwater rules are a nice touch.

EQUIPMENT TABLES
Nice. What else can you say?

BACK
Wow, another reprinted art piece, this time from the SR3 rulebook.

Ken
---------------------------
There's a war out there, old friend, a world war. And it's not about who's
got the most bullets, it's about who controls the information. What we see
and hear, how we work, what we think, it's all about the information!
Cosmo, 'Sneakers'
Message no. 2
From: Iridios iridios@*****.com
Subject: -REVIEW- Cannon Companion
Date: Mon, 10 Apr 2000 21:53:38 -0400
Tzeentch wrote:

> Technical Accuracy
> Well, we still have the infamous Centurion laser axe from SSC and now we
> have vibro blades. Dunno if the authors are big fans of Rifts or what.

Vibro blades? From Rifts?

How about Battletech/Mechwarrior? That's where I first saw
vibroblades. :)

<snip!>

--
Iridios
--
Freedom defined is freedom denied. (Illuminatus)

Visit "The ShadowZone"
http://members.xoom.com/Iridios/ShadowZone

Sig by Kookie Jar 5.97d http://go.to/generalfrenetics/
9:39:05 PM/233:01:00 (1) [no thud]
Message no. 3
From: Patrick Goodman remo@***.net
Subject: -REVIEW- Cannon Companion
Date: Mon, 10 Apr 2000 21:08:14 -0500
From: Tzeentch
Sent: Monday, April 10, 2000 8:23 PM

> Other
> The usual cast of characters makes its appearance here. I've been
> told very little of the playtest feedback was actually incorporated
> into this book - so don't blame the playtesters if you don't like
> stuff from the book.

On a "To Be Fair" note here:

As one of the usual suspects, Ken, I do feel the need to mention that, as I
looked over the material in the draft and the final product, a great many of
my suggestions, and those of my local playtest group, made it in (I got as
far as martial arts before other projects called me back to what I should
have been doing, and I saw a lot of things I'd suggested). My complaints
earlier in this thread notwithstanding, I'm not upset that things didn't
make it in; I am a little upset that not everything that I suggested made it
in, but that's a separate issue.

Most of what I suggested was little stuff here and there, and much of it was
in the firearm design system and a bit in the advanced combat rules. If
there were playtesters who proposed gross changes that didn't make it, then
no, those didn't make it in. (James Vaughan, my roommate and fellow
playtester, tried to rewrite the two-handed combat system in the last
chapter; this didn't make it, but his suggestion to add the Focus Will
maneuver to Carromeleg did make it in, as did Wes Bond's suggestions
regarding the maneuvers in Tae Kwon Do, and my suggestion that handedness
issues be addressed with the bow smartlink mount be addressed.)

--
(>) Texas 2-Step
El Paso: Never surrender. Never forget. Never forgive.
Message no. 4
From: Oliver McDonald oliver@*********.com
Subject: -REVIEW- Cannon Companion
Date: Mon, 10 Apr 2000 19:09:06 -0700 (PDT)
On Mon, 10 Apr 2000 18:22:39 -0700, Tzeentch wrote:

>CANNON COMPANION REVIEW

Thanks for the review. I have Cannon Companion, which IMNSHO is at least as useful an
expansion book as M&M or MitS.
There are a couple of areas I disagree with your opinions, but nonetheless your arguments
where well thought out, and had
enough information that others could easily infer what they were based on.

-----------------------------------------------------------
Oliver McDonald - oliver@*********.com
http://www.spydernet.com/oliver/
-----------------------------------------------------------
Space. The Final Frontier. Let's not close it down.
Brought to you via CyberSpace, the recursive frontier.

"that is not dead which can eternal lie, And with strange aeons even death may
die."
-H.P. Lovecraft, "The Call of Cthulhu."

ICQ: 38158540
Message no. 5
From: HHackerH@***.com HHackerH@***.com
Subject: -REVIEW- Cannon Companion
Date: Mon, 10 Apr 2000 22:27:38 EDT
In a message dated 4/10/00 8:52:51 PM US Eastern Standard Time,
iridios@*****.com writes:

>
> > Technical Accuracy
> > Well, we still have the infamous Centurion laser axe from SSC and now we
> > have vibro blades. Dunno if the authors are big fans of Rifts or what.
>
> Vibro blades? From Rifts?
>
> How about Battletech/Mechwarrior? That's where I first saw
> vibroblades. :)

Actually, the *first* place I ever saw something even close to this was at
the Thanksgiving Dinner table...

-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-
-K
-"Just a Bastard"
-Hoosier Hacker House
"Children of the Kernel"
[http://members.aol.com/hhackerh/index.html]
Message no. 6
From: Alfredo B Alves dghost@****.com
Subject: -REVIEW- Cannon Companion
Date: Mon, 10 Apr 2000 21:39:04 -0500
On Mon, 10 Apr 2000 21:53:38 -0400 Iridios <iridios@*****.com> writes:
> Tzeentch wrote:
>
> > Technical Accuracy
> > Well, we still have the infamous Centurion laser axe from SSC and
> > now we
> > have vibro blades. Dunno if the authors are big fans of Rifts or
> > what.

> Vibro blades? From Rifts?
>
> How about Battletech/Mechwarrior? That's where I first saw
> vibroblades. :)

? I've only heard of them in Star Wars by WEG. I guess it's not a unique
idea.

--
D. Ghost
A Mathematician is a machine for turning coffee into theorems
--Paul Erdos

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Message no. 7
From: Logan Graves logan1@********.net
Subject: -REVIEW- Cannon Companion
Date: Mon, 10 Apr 2000 21:45:46 -0400
In our last episode, Pixel wrote:

> On Mon, 10 Apr 2000 21:53:38 -0400 Iridios <iridios@*****.com> writes:
> > from Tzeentch's CC Review:
> >
> > > Technical Accuracy
> > > ...now we have vibro blades.
> > > Dunno if the authors are big fans of Rifts or what.

> > Vibro blades? From Rifts?
> > How about Battletech/Mechwarrior?

> I've only heard of them in Star Wars by WEG.

Funny, I could have sworn they were in the very *first* edition of Traveler.

--Fenris
_____________________________________________Fenris@************.virtualAve.net
(>) Oh, great, Dirk. One little stab in the intestines and you go down.
(>) Terras

(>) Look Dirk, if you're going to bleed, bleed on the enemy.
(>) Horatio

(>) Well, Dirk, if you're going to die, could you
at least die in a strategically useful position?
(>) Norman Steele
Message no. 8
From: Phil pames@*****.net
Subject: -REVIEW- Cannon Companion
Date: Mon, 10 Apr 2000 21:44:27 -0500
At 09:53 PM 4/10/2000 -0400, you wrote:
>Tzeentch wrote:
>
>> Technical Accuracy
>> Well, we still have the infamous Centurion laser axe from SSC and now we
>> have vibro blades. Dunno if the authors are big fans of Rifts or what.
>
>Vibro blades? From Rifts?
>
>How about Battletech/Mechwarrior? That's where I first saw
>vibroblades. :)
>

Or in Star Frontiers, Gamma World, and Metamorphasis Alpha. Not to mention
Space Opera.

Depends on how they're handling it, though. Blade that vibrates on a micro
level at a high rate of speed? Sort of a pocket Tesla effect?

Phil
Message no. 9
From: Aristotle antithesis@**********.com
Subject: -REVIEW- Cannon Companion
Date: Mon, 10 Apr 2000 23:22:26 -0400
I just wanted to comment on the review (as I'm sure was the intent of
sharing the review). I respect Ken for his passion and his voice, even if I
do not always agree. The following is snipped beyond recognition. :)

I have not made individual comments on the reviews of various technologies.
Armor, Gyrojet Pistols, Lasers, Rifles made to fire underwater, and a
variety of other pieces of technology really got slammed. While Ken is a
MUCH more knowledgeable person than I when it comes to technology,
firearms, and electronics.. I never really cared how possible something
would be in the real world. The technology part of Shadowrun is supposed to
be science fiction, which implies to me that some parts of it will be made
up. Fiction is, for better or worse, a licence to BS things a little. The
Science part implies that it would be based in real world science, but not
defined by it.

>Art
>I covered this in the "content" section. Suffice to say it's even more
>cartoonish then the Shadowrun, Third Edition cover. If you don't like the
>new direction with Shadowrun covers you definitely won't like this one
>either. If I had to assign a label to it, I'd place the new direction in
>cover art as distinctly Warhammer 40,000-like.

For some reason it makes me think of Rockwell paintings. Sort of Rockwell
meats cyberpunk. Am I way off base their?

>Technical Accuracy
>Well, we still have the infamous Centurion laser axe from SSC and now we
>have vibro blades. Dunno if the authors are big fans of Rifts or what.

Star Wars, Rifts, Mechwarrior, Werewolf The Apocalypse, ..seems to me the
"vibro blade" has become a staple of the science fiction genre. *shrug*

>Usefulness
>Well, I've never played a game with bow-users. Nor have I ever had the urge
>to break out a slingshot or go dwarf-tossing so this section had no
>usefulness for me other then a brief chuckle at the entry for using
>metahuman bodies as improvised weapons. Once that wore off I note I'll
>probably never use this section again.

While I agree in many campaigns this information may not be entirely useful
right off, it may be helpful to some young GM's. Also you never know when
someone might want to play a character around the concept of a bow. (I
myself played a character like that a while back with the concept of "Urban
Primitive") This might not be "traditional Shadowrun" but not entirely
useless.

>Other
>Why no notes on tire damage from caltrops?

Good call!

>One VERY annoying passage was the description for the Ruger Thunderbolt.
>Now, why Lone Star would harass someone for owning one (it can be bought
>with a permit) absolutely boggles me. Do cops now harass those who own their
>model of service weapon? It's yet another cheap blow at Lone Star to make
>them cookie-cutter adversaries.

I understood that the Thunderbolt is not for sake on the open market, am I
off base their?

>Technical Accuracy
>Nobody at FASA has yet figured out how their damage modeling is messed up.
>High power weapons penetrate armor better - its a function of how the system
>works. But we still have pistols that can penetrate armor easier then
>assault rifles.

In my opinion a game does not *have* to be modelled after the "real world"
to be fun.. the game mechanic seems balanced in game play..

>Usefulness
>Hmm. Well don't expect to be able to build any of the canon firearms using
>these rules - you probably won't be able to. And that's part of the problem.
>It's like this system exists in a vacuum. It's NOT a "Rigger 2" for weapons
>by any stretch.

I am one of those people who believe in the concept of market saturation. I
don't entirely disagree with you here though. The system does not fit
completely with the weapons that already exist. As for the cost of the
weapons being so much higher than similar weapons on the street I propose
another modifier, possibly with several levels. A low level would indicate
complete market saturation (i.e. Ares Predator) while no rating would
indicate a prototype/unique weapon (in which case the costs would work as
they do in the design system).

>Technical Accuracy
>Nothing overtly wrong from a consistency standpoint. Some of the base times
>for weapon mods seem WAY too long. A bipod takes 8 hours to install? Geeze,
>just get one that clips on! Why do extended clips take a modification time?
>It's just a longer clip..Geeze. The desire to give extensive base times and
>target numbers for even the most banal task was a bit too much, but use some
>common sense (in short supply I know).

I agree. While some of these were great, others are just whacky.

Just my $0.02,
Aristotle, The Sleeping Op.
Message no. 10
From: Strago strago@***.com
Subject: -REVIEW- Cannon Companion
Date: Mon, 10 Apr 2000 23:52:30 -0400
Aristotle wrote:

> <SNIP>

> >Usefulness
> >Well, I've never played a game with bow-users. Nor have I ever had the urge
> >to break out a slingshot or go dwarf-tossing so this section had no
> >usefulness for me other then a brief chuckle at the entry for using
> >metahuman bodies as improvised weapons. Once that wore off I note I'll
> >probably never use this section again.
>

I have to tell you, sometimes that dwarf standing over there is very useful as a
weapon :^). Or if you're attacked by two guys, you grab one guy and beat the other
guy with him. I call it a twofer :^).

> While I agree in many campaigns this information may not be entirely useful
> right off, it may be helpful to some young GM's. Also you never know when
> someone might want to play a character around the concept of a bow. (I
> myself played a character like that a while back with the concept of "Urban
> Primitive") This might not be "traditional Shadowrun" but not entirely
useless.
>

Right. Plus the fact that a Troll with a bow is more powerful than a sniper :^).

> <SNIP>

> >One VERY annoying passage was the description for the Ruger Thunderbolt.
> >Now, why Lone Star would harass someone for owning one (it can be bought
> >with a permit) absolutely boggles me. Do cops now harass those who own their
> >model of service weapon? It's yet another cheap blow at Lone Star to make
> >them cookie-cutter adversaries.
>
> I understood that the Thunderbolt is not for sake on the open market, am I
> off base their?
>

I thought that as well. Thus, if you're carrying a Thunderbolt, you've killed a
cop. And Lone Star should not harass, they should arrest.
<SNIP>
--
--Strago

In Italy for thirty years under the Borgias they had warfare, terror, murder,
bloodshed - they produced Michelangelo, Leonardo da Vinci and the Renaissance. In
Switzerland they had brotherly
love, five hundred years of democracy and peace, and what did they produce? The
cuckoo clock!
-Orson Welles

SRGC v0.2 !SR1 SR2+ SR3++ h b++ B- UB- IE+ RN+ SRFF W+ sa++ ma++ ad+ m+ (o++ d+)
gm+ M P
Message no. 11
From: Mark A Shieh SHODAN+@***.EDU
Subject: -REVIEW- Cannon Companion
Date: Mon, 10 Apr 2000 23:54:54 -0400 (EDT)
Strago <strago@***.com> writes:
> Aristotle wrote:
> > I understood that the Thunderbolt is not for sake on the open market, am I
> > off base their?
>
> I thought that as well. Thus, if you're carrying a Thunderbolt,
> you've killed a
> cop. And Lone Star should not harass, they should arrest.

For one year, this was the case...

Lone Star, p.116:

"For the first year of manufacture, all units will be sold to Lone
Star for a predetermined (and very low) price. At the end of that
period, Ruger may sell the Thunderbolt through its usual channels at
whatever price the market will bear.

>>>>>(Take note chummers: the effective date for this contract is
June 6, 2054...That means you can't buy this weapon legally until June
6, 2055)<<<<<"

Come on people, are you lost in a time warp? That was last
decade! :)

Mark
Message no. 12
From: Strago strago@***.com
Subject: -REVIEW- Cannon Companion
Date: Tue, 11 Apr 2000 00:03:58 -0400
Mark A Shieh wrote:

> <SNIP>

> Lone Star, p.116:
>
> "For the first year of manufacture, all units will be sold to Lone
> Star for a predetermined (and very low) price. At the end of that
> period, Ruger may sell the Thunderbolt through its usual channels at
> whatever price the market will bear.
>
> >>>>>(Take note chummers: the effective date for this contract is
> June 6, 2054...That means you can't buy this weapon legally until June
> 6, 2055)<<<<<"
>
> Come on people, are you lost in a time warp? That was last
> decade! :)
>

I don't have the Lone Star Sourcebook. I was just going by something I misread in
New Seattle. My bad.

>
> Mark

--
--Strago

In Italy for thirty years under the Borgias they had warfare, terror, murder,
bloodshed - they produced Michelangelo, Leonardo da Vinci and the Renaissance. In
Switzerland they had brotherly
love, five hundred years of democracy and peace, and what did they produce? The
cuckoo clock!
-Orson Welles

SRGC v0.2 !SR1 SR2+ SR3++ h b++ B- UB- IE+ RN+ SRFF W+ sa++ ma++ ad+ m+ (o++ d+)
gm+ M P
Message no. 13
From: Alfredo B Alves dghost@****.com
Subject: -REVIEW- Cannon Companion
Date: Mon, 10 Apr 2000 23:40:27 -0500
I didn't read the original review but this caught my eye (I don't know
why, honestly)
On Mon, 10 Apr 2000 23:22:26 -0400 Aristotle <antithesis@**********.com>
writes:
<SNIP>
> >One VERY annoying passage was the description for the Ruger
> >Thunderbolt.
> >Now, why Lone Star would harass someone for owning one (it can be
> >bought
> >with a permit) absolutely boggles me. Do cops now harass those who
> >own their
> >model of service weapon? It's yet another cheap blow at Lone Star
> >to make
> >them cookie-cutter adversaries.

> I understood that the Thunderbolt is not for sake on the open
> market, am I
> off base their?
<SNIP>

The current police issue firearm is a legal weapon. The Ruger
Thunderbolt, like all burst fire capable weapons are classified as
MILITARY hardware. You can't even get permits for them. Tough luck.

--
D. Ghost
A Mathematician is a machine for turning coffee into theorems
--Paul Erdos

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Message no. 14
From: Oliver McDonald oliver@*********.com
Subject: -REVIEW- Cannon Companion
Date: Mon, 10 Apr 2000 23:21:47 -0700 (PDT)
On Mon, 10 Apr 2000 23:52:30 -0400, Strago wrote:

>> >One VERY annoying passage was the description for the Ruger Thunderbolt.
>> >Now, why Lone Star would harass someone for owning one (it can be bought
>> >with a permit) absolutely boggles me. Do cops now harass those who own their
>> >model of service weapon? It's yet another cheap blow at Lone Star to make
>> >them cookie-cutter adversaries.
>>
>> I understood that the Thunderbolt is not for sake on the open market, am I
>> off base their?
>>
>
>I thought that as well. Thus, if you're carrying a Thunderbolt, you've killed a
>cop. And Lone Star should not harass, they should arrest.

That would have to be a GM call. In the world I GM, the only two ways to get a
Thunderbolt is to a) Kill a Lone Star, or b) hijack
a shipment to a Lone Star depot. In both cases the Star would be more than a little
perturbed.

-----------------------------------------------------------
Oliver McDonald - oliver@*********.com
http://www.spydernet.com/oliver/
-----------------------------------------------------------
Space. The Final Frontier. Let's not close it down.
Brought to you via CyberSpace, the recursive frontier.

"that is not dead which can eternal lie, And with strange aeons even death may
die."
-H.P. Lovecraft, "The Call of Cthulhu."

ICQ: 38158540
Message no. 15
From: Deirdre M. Brooks xenya@********.com
Subject: -REVIEW- Cannon Companion
Date: Tue, 11 Apr 2000 00:18:44 -0700
Logan Graves wrote:
>
> > I've only heard of them in Star Wars by WEG.
>
> Funny, I could have sworn they were in the very *first* edition of Traveler.

They were. They're ubiquitous to SF games.

--
Deird'Re M. Brooks | xenya@********.com | cam#9309026
Listowner: Aberrants_Worldwide, Fading_Suns_Games, TrinityRPG
"If you loved me, you'd all kill yourselves today."
-- Spider Jerusalem | http://www.teleport.com/~xenya
Message no. 16
From: Gurth gurth@******.nl
Subject: -REVIEW- Cannon Companion
Date: Tue, 11 Apr 2000 11:36:25 +0200
According to HHackerH@***.com, at 22:27 on 10 Apr 00, the word on the
street was...

> > How about Battletech/Mechwarrior? That's where I first saw
> > vibroblades. :)
>
> Actually, the *first* place I ever saw something even close to this was at
> the Thanksgiving Dinner table...

Now I've got an image in my head of shadowrunners threatening security
guards with electric kitchen knives...

--
Gurth@******.nl - http://www.xs4all.nl/~gurth/index.html
"There are millions of people who've got nothing to say to each other,
and who do it on mobile phones" --Ian Hislop, on Have I Got News For You
-> NAGEE Editor * ShadowRN GridSec * Unofficial Shadowrun Guru <-
->The Plastic Warriors Page: http://shadowrun.html.com/plasticwarriors/<-

GC3.1: GAT/! d-(dpu) s:- !a>? C+(++)@ UL P L+ E? W(++) N o? K- w+ O V? PS+
PE Y PGP- t(+) 5++ X++ R+++>$ tv+(++) b++@ DI? D+ G(++) e h! !r(---) y?
Incubated into the First Church of the Sqooshy Ball, 21-05-1998
Message no. 17
From: Gurth gurth@******.nl
Subject: -REVIEW- Cannon Companion
Date: Tue, 11 Apr 2000 11:36:25 +0200
According to Strago, at 23:52 on 10 Apr 00, the word on the street was...

> > I understood that the Thunderbolt is not for sake on the open market, am I
> > off base their?
>
> I thought that as well. Thus, if you're carrying a Thunderbolt, you've killed a
> cop. And Lone Star should not harass, they should arrest.

Lone Star sourcebook, page 116:

For the first year of manufacture, all units produced will be sold to
Lone Star for a predetermined (and very low) price. At the end of that
period, Ruger may sell the Thunderbolt through its usual channels at
whatever price the market will bear.

>>>>>[Take note, chummers: the effective date for this contract is June
6, 2054, even though Ruger started churning out pre-production models
months before. That means you can't buy this weapon legally until June 6,
2055.]<<<<<
--Dodd (13:49:04/9-7-54)

What this means is that the Thunderbolt has been for sale on the open
market for about 6 or 7 years now. The only problem I can see with it is
the burst mode, which would limit sales in most countries to those people
or organizations with the appropriate permit, but for some reason it's
classified as a pistol (2P-E) in CC rather than an automatic weapon (I'd
have called it closer to 2P-G or 2-G) so I guess that means it's legal for
any civilian to buy one...

--
Gurth@******.nl - http://www.xs4all.nl/~gurth/index.html
"There are millions of people who've got nothing to say to each other,
and who do it on mobile phones" --Ian Hislop, on Have I Got News For You
-> NAGEE Editor * ShadowRN GridSec * Unofficial Shadowrun Guru <-
->The Plastic Warriors Page: http://shadowrun.html.com/plasticwarriors/<-

GC3.1: GAT/! d-(dpu) s:- !a>? C+(++)@ UL P L+ E? W(++) N o? K- w+ O V? PS+
PE Y PGP- t(+) 5++ X++ R+++>$ tv+(++) b++@ DI? D+ G(++) e h! !r(---) y?
Incubated into the First Church of the Sqooshy Ball, 21-05-1998
Message no. 18
From: Gurth gurth@******.nl
Subject: -REVIEW- Cannon Companion
Date: Tue, 11 Apr 2000 11:36:26 +0200
According to Alfredo B Alves, at 23:40 on 10 Apr 00, the word on the
street was...

> The current police issue firearm is a legal weapon. The Ruger
> Thunderbolt, like all burst fire capable weapons are classified as
> MILITARY hardware. You can't even get permits for them. Tough luck.

It's listed as 2P-E in CC, so it a) is a civilian pistol and b) can be had
on a permit.

--
Gurth@******.nl - http://www.xs4all.nl/~gurth/index.html
"There are millions of people who've got nothing to say to each other,
and who do it on mobile phones" --Ian Hislop, on Have I Got News For You
-> NAGEE Editor * ShadowRN GridSec * Unofficial Shadowrun Guru <-
->The Plastic Warriors Page: http://shadowrun.html.com/plasticwarriors/<-

GC3.1: GAT/! d-(dpu) s:- !a>? C+(++)@ UL P L+ E? W(++) N o? K- w+ O V? PS+
PE Y PGP- t(+) 5++ X++ R+++>$ tv+(++) b++@ DI? D+ G(++) e h! !r(---) y?
Incubated into the First Church of the Sqooshy Ball, 21-05-1998
Message no. 19
From: Iridios iridios@*****.com
Subject: -REVIEW- Cannon Companion
Date: Tue, 11 Apr 2000 07:04:00 -0400
Phil wrote:
>
> At 09:53 PM 4/10/2000 -0400, you wrote:
> >Tzeentch wrote:
> >
> >> Technical Accuracy
> >> Well, we still have the infamous Centurion laser axe from SSC and now we
> >> have vibro blades. Dunno if the authors are big fans of Rifts or what.
> >
> >Vibro blades? From Rifts?
> >
> >How about Battletech/Mechwarrior? That's where I first saw
> >vibroblades. :)
> >
>
> Or in Star Frontiers, Gamma World, and Metamorphasis Alpha. Not to mention
> Space Opera.

The point I was trying to make was that FASA already had a "history"
of using vibroblades in earlier products. :)

--
Iridios
--
Discordianism: Where reality is a figment of your imagination

Visit "The ShadowZone"
http://members.xoom.com/Iridios/ShadowZone

Sig by Kookie Jar 5.97d http://go.to/generalfrenetics/
7:00:30 AM/57:02:02 (1) [no thud]
Message no. 20
From: HHackerH@***.com HHackerH@***.com
Subject: -REVIEW- Cannon Companion
Date: Tue, 11 Apr 2000 08:14:05 EDT
In a message dated 4/10/00 10:32:31 PM US Eastern Standard Time,
antithesis@**********.com writes:

> >Art
> >I covered this in the "content" section. Suffice to say it's even more
> >cartoonish then the Shadowrun, Third Edition cover. If you don't like the
> >new direction with Shadowrun covers you definitely won't like this one
> >either. If I had to assign a label to it, I'd place the new direction in
> >cover art as distinctly Warhammer 40,000-like.
>
> For some reason it makes me think of Rockwell paintings. Sort of Rockwell
> meats cyberpunk. Am I way off base their?

No, you are not off base at all.

-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-
-K
-"Just a Bastard"
-Hoosier Hacker House
"Children of the Kernel"
[http://members.aol.com/hhackerh/index.html]
Message no. 21
From: HHackerH@***.com HHackerH@***.com
Subject: -REVIEW- Cannon Companion
Date: Tue, 11 Apr 2000 08:16:39 EDT
In a message dated 4/10/00 10:49:17 PM US Eastern Standard Time,
strago@***.com writes:

>
> > While I agree in many campaigns this information may not be entirely
> useful
> > right off, it may be helpful to some young GM's. Also you never know when
> > someone might want to play a character around the concept of a bow. (I
> > myself played a character like that a while back with the concept of "
> Urban
> > Primitive") This might not be "traditional Shadowrun" but not
entirely
> useless.
>
> Right. Plus the fact that a Troll with a bow is more powerful than a
sniper :
> ^).

And the game is about flavor and fun, and not about technical propensity or
accuracy. If a particular GM or game group wants the technical accuracy at
the level that Ken is saying is NOT in the book, then perhaps they should
decide what to keep or what not to keep or what to modify appropriately which
they will do. As more than one person on this list has said before, it's not
what you can introduce easily that matters, it's what you can keep from
coming into the game in the first place.

And, as for the "Bow" not being something that made sense ... you guys need
some real time with a game group that has a player who does use such and use
it well and use it accurately and use it with style and color and flavor and
enjoyment.

-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-
-K
-"Just a Bastard"
-Hoosier Hacker House
"Children of the Kernel"
[http://members.aol.com/hhackerh/index.html]
Message no. 22
From: Martin Steffens (Berlitz) v-marts@*********.com
Subject: -REVIEW- Cannon Companion
Date: Tue, 11 Apr 2000 05:40:34 -0700
From: Tzeentch

> CANNON COMPANION REVIEW
[GigaSnip]

Thanks! Excellent and detailed review. You convinced me
to leave this one alone until I have a bigger order for
my RPG supplier :).

Thanks again for the effort of writing this.


Martin Steffens
e-mail: v-marts@*********.com
phone: 70 666 44
Message no. 23
From: Brett Sanger swiftone@******.psu.edu
Subject: -REVIEW- Cannon Companion
Date: Tue, 11 Apr 2000 09:34:03 -0400 (EDT)
> Thanks! Excellent and detailed review. You convinced me
> to leave this one alone until I have a bigger order for
> my RPG supplier :).

Be sure to read my (more positive) review in the upcoming TSS 12 before
giving up on this book completely.
Message no. 24
From: Phil pames@*****.net
Subject: -REVIEW- Cannon Companion
Date: Tue, 11 Apr 2000 09:02:42 -0500
At 07:04 AM 4/11/2000 -0400, you wrote:
>Phil wrote:
>>
>> At 09:53 PM 4/10/2000 -0400, you wrote:
>> >Tzeentch wrote:
>> >
>> >> Technical Accuracy
>> >> Well, we still have the infamous Centurion laser axe from SSC and now we
>> >> have vibro blades. Dunno if the authors are big fans of Rifts or what.
>> >
>> >Vibro blades? From Rifts?
>> >
>> >How about Battletech/Mechwarrior? That's where I first saw
>> >vibroblades. :)
>> >
>>
>> Or in Star Frontiers, Gamma World, and Metamorphasis Alpha. Not to mention
>> Space Opera.
>
>The point I was trying to make was that FASA already had a "history"
>of using vibroblades in earlier products. :)
>
>--
>Iridios


Ahh. True enough. I've never even seen a copy of Mechwarrior in stores,
actually. Point I was trying to make is that vibroblades are endemic to SF
games. Hey, at least they didn't put in chainsaw knives or 'plasma' guns.


Phil
Message no. 25
From: abortion_engine abortion_engine@*******.com
Subject: -REVIEW- Cannon Companion
Date: Tue, 11 Apr 2000 10:56:31 -0400
From: "Aristotle" <antithesis@**********.com>
> >Technical Accuracy
> >Nobody at FASA has yet figured out how their damage modeling is messed
up.
> >High power weapons penetrate armor better - its a function of how the
system
> >works. But we still have pistols that can penetrate armor easier then
> >assault rifles.
>
> In my opinion a game does not *have* to be modelled after the "real world"
> to be fun.. the game mechanic seems balanced in game play..

Ah, but, my friend, that is your opinion. In many of ours, given that the
game does not take place in an alternate universe where the physical laws
are different, we'd like things to be as realistic as possible [while still
being playable]. Internal consistancy; if the game had a realistic physical
explanation for why this was possible [as it does for magic, the big
difference between SR physics and our reality] we wouldn't have nearly so
much of a problem.
Message no. 26
From: kawaii trunks@********.org
Subject: -REVIEW- Cannon Companion
Date: Tue, 11 Apr 2000 11:45:22 -0400
From: "abortion_engine"
> From: "Aristotle"
> > >Technical Accuracy
> > >Nobody at FASA has yet figured out how their damage modeling is messed
> up.
> > >High power weapons penetrate armor better - its a function of how the
> system
> > >works. But we still have pistols that can penetrate armor easier then
> > >assault rifles.
> >
> > In my opinion a game does not *have* to be modelled after the "real
world"
> > to be fun.. the game mechanic seems balanced in game play..
>
> Ah, but, my friend, that is your opinion. In many of ours, given that the
> game does not take place in an alternate universe where the physical laws
> are different, we'd like things to be as realistic as possible [while
still
> being playable]. Internal consistancy; if the game had a realistic
physical
> explanation for why this was possible [as it does for magic, the big
> difference between SR physics and our reality] we wouldn't have nearly so
> much of a problem.
>


I think the concern is more of internal consistancy rather than how well it
meshes with realistic physics. It is a science fiction world after all and
some leeway has to be given.

But when the game system violates not just real world physics but even the
gameworld physics, it is hard to just accept that it works and not question.
;)

Anyhows, just my 2.11 cents.

Ever lovable and always scrappy,
kawaii
Message no. 27
From: abortion_engine abortion_engine@*******.com
Subject: -REVIEW- Cannon Companion
Date: Tue, 11 Apr 2000 13:22:33 -0400
From: "kawaii" <trunks@********.org>
> It is a science fiction world after all and
> some leeway has to be given.

By the way, I would like to point out the logical fallacy of this statement.
Not to pick on you, Kawaii, but you mentioned it most recently.

Why should leeway be given for sci-fi? If something occurs within our
universe, with our physical laws, things that would literally be
*impossible* in our universe should similarly be impossible in the sci-fi
world. While magic and the like are possible [if obviously not realistically
likely] given the extra layer given to our world by Shadowrun, things like
"lethal voltage feedback" a staple of cyberpunk decking, are not possible.
Luckily, SR doesn't rely on this silly concept.

Even SR's magic has always seemed a little weak to me, as the internal
inconsistancy of true history and SR history detract from the game, for me.
But that's just for myself and a few like me, and so I understand that it's
not a real issue. But obvious, glaring idiocy shouldn't be countenanced.
Vibroblades and impossibly powerful pistol lasers are silly and unrealistic,
and shouldn't be part of the game.

Sci-fi doesn't grant a writ of immunity to the laws of intelligent writing,
and we shouldn't let it. We should demand that our game make sense and be,
for lack of a better term, good.

> But when the game system violates not just real world physics but even the
> gameworld physics, it is hard to just accept that it works and not
question.
> ;)

Agreed, obviously.
Message no. 28
From: Aristotle antithesis@**********.com
Subject: -REVIEW- Cannon Companion
Date: Tue, 11 Apr 2000 13:36:30 -0400
>abortion_engine wrote:

<Snip>
>Why should leeway be given for sci-fi? If something occurs within our
>universe, with our physical laws, things that would literally be
>*impossible* in our universe should similarly be impossible in the sci-fi
>world.
<Snip>

Ok, maybe I am just reading what you said wrong, but it sounds like you are
saying that science fiction is bound by the same laws thaat we are. While
this is true, it isn't entirely. The whole point of science fiction is the
use of scientific theory to overcome the natural laws that we are bound to.
The theory might work, it may not, it is just a theory that someone used to
explain something in a fictional world. At least that is the way Science
Fiction was always presented to me in High School.

<Snip>
>Vibroblades and impossibly powerful pistol lasers are silly and unrealistic,
>and shouldn't be part of the game.
<Snip>

While I may or may not like these things personally I do feel that they (in
concept) fit with Shadowrun. I can also tell you that my players will
probably never own a laser weapon of this magnitude, and have only slightly
better chances of encountering one in an opponent's hands. Like I said
before these technologies are a staple of the science fiction universe, and
it was only a matter of time before some corporation in the Shadowrun
universe tried to create them.

<Snip>
>Sci-fi doesn't grant a writ of immunity to the laws of intelligent writing,
>and we shouldn't let it. We should demand that our game make sense and be,
>for lack of a better term, good.
<Snip>

I would have to say that by these standards, very little of the science
fiction I have read in books or seen in movies lives up to these
expectations. *shrug*

I'm up to about $1.20,
Aristotle, The Sleeping Op.
Message no. 29
From: abortion_engine abortion_engine@*******.com
Subject: -REVIEW- Cannon Companion
Date: Tue, 11 Apr 2000 14:39:05 -0400
From: "Aristotle" <antithesis@**********.com>
> >abortion_engine wrote:
>
> <Snip>
> >Why should leeway be given for sci-fi? If something occurs within our
> >universe, with our physical laws, things that would literally be
> >*impossible* in our universe should similarly be impossible in the sci-fi
> >world.
> <Snip>
>
> Ok, maybe I am just reading what you said wrong, but it sounds like you
are
> saying that science fiction is bound by the same laws thaat we are. While
> this is true, it isn't entirely. The whole point of science fiction is the
> use of scientific theory to overcome the natural laws that we are bound
to.
> The theory might work, it may not, it is just a theory that someone used
to
> explain something in a fictional world. At least that is the way Science
> Fiction was always presented to me in High School.

You're not reading wrong, but I wasn't complete. Obviously -
*cough-warp-drive-cough* - sci-fi doesn't need to necessarily follow
physical laws. But it doesn't need to flaunt them, either. Look at Iain
Banks; though his method of FTL travel is most likely impossible, it isn't
improbable, and, in any case, occurs in a society so advanced beyond our own
that it makes sense. But handheld armor-defeating killing lasers aren't
likely in 2060, and if you're going to posit the existance of the damned
things, you should at least attempt to have them make sense without the sort
of uneducated handwaving SR is so well-known for. [For evidence of how to
handwave well, see Ken or Raygun.]

Sci-fi doesn't *have* to be unrealistic to survive, and the closer the tech
level is to our own, the closer one must watch one's ideas to make certain
they're realistic. If one wishes to maintain plausable disbelief.

> <Snip>
> >Vibroblades and impossibly powerful pistol lasers are silly and
unrealistic,
> >and shouldn't be part of the game.
> <Snip>
>
> While I may or may not like these things personally I do feel that they
(in
> concept) fit with Shadowrun. I can also tell you that my players will
> probably never own a laser weapon of this magnitude, and have only
slightly
> better chances of encountering one in an opponent's hands. Like I said
> before these technologies are a staple of the science fiction universe,
and
> it was only a matter of time before some corporation in the Shadowrun
> universe tried to create them.

I think the concept of Shadowrun is simple; it is a future, plus magic.
Anything that doesn't fit with that needs to be eliminated.

> <Snip>
> >Sci-fi doesn't grant a writ of immunity to the laws of intelligent
writing,
> >and we shouldn't let it. We should demand that our game make sense and
be,
> >for lack of a better term, good.
> <Snip>
>
> I would have to say that by these standards, very little of the science
> fiction I have read in books or seen in movies lives up to these
> expectations. *shrug*

Correct, which is why science fiction is such a barren genre, in terms of
literature; the greatest mass of it pays no heed to being good, in literary
terms. And that's very sad, since science fiction has some wonderful
possibilities. But, as with romance novels, if it would like respect, it
needs to have more than the few authors it possesses right now writing for
all time, and not for grocery-store shelf space for a week. It needs to
write for adults, and not teenagers.
Message no. 30
From: Arclight arclight@*********.de
Subject: -REVIEW- Cannon Companion
Date: Tue, 11 Apr 2000 21:02:32 +0200
And finally, Aristotle expressed himself by writing:

<snip>

> Ok, maybe I am just reading what you said wrong, but it sounds
> like you are saying that science fiction is bound by the same
> laws thaat we are. While this is true, it isn't entirely. The
> whole point of science fiction is the use of scientific theory
> to overcome the natural laws that we are bound to.

So, if the next rigger handbook would contain a WARP drive,
this is just "overcoming of natural laws" for the sake of the
game? IMHO laser weapons, with a slight exception for ship-mounted
systems, are more Star Wars than Shadowrun. They just don't feel
right for me, and my game.

--
arclight
Non Gratum Anus Rodentum
[#361]<><><><><><><><><><><><><><><>[ICQ
14322211]
<> SR_D Gallerie 2.0: www.datahaven.de/gallerie <>
<> Gehirnstuerm 0.7: www.datahaven.de/arclight <>
<> SR_D Most Mails Award Winner '99 <>
<><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><>
Message no. 31
From: Deirdre M. Brooks xenya@********.com
Subject: -REVIEW- Cannon Companion
Date: Tue, 11 Apr 2000 12:43:22 -0700
Phil wrote:
>
> Ahh. True enough. I've never even seen a copy of Mechwarrior in stores,
> actually. Point I was trying to make is that vibroblades are endemic to SF
> games. Hey, at least they didn't put in chainsaw knives or 'plasma' guns.

Hey! Plasma guns are a Traveller classic.

--
Deird'Re M. Brooks | xenya@********.com | cam#9309026
Listowner: Aberrants_Worldwide, Fading_Suns_Games, TrinityRPG
"If you loved me, you'd all kill yourselves today."
-- Spider Jerusalem | http://www.teleport.com/~xenya
Message no. 32
From: Deirdre M. Brooks xenya@********.com
Subject: -REVIEW- Cannon Companion
Date: Tue, 11 Apr 2000 12:44:38 -0700
abortion_engine wrote:
>

> > In my opinion a game does not *have* to be modelled after the "real
world"
> > to be fun.. the game mechanic seems balanced in game play..
>
> Ah, but, my friend, that is your opinion. In many of ours, given that the
> game does not take place in an alternate universe where the physical laws
> are different, we'd like things to be as realistic as possible [while still
> being playable]. Internal consistancy; if the game had a realistic physical
> explanation for why this was possible [as it does for magic, the big
> difference between SR physics and our reality] we wouldn't have nearly so
> much of a problem.

Shadowrun has cinematic physics, I think. Not quite so cinematic as Feng
Shui, but enough that you can pull off standard action movie stunts,
esp. with a large karma pool.

I know the firearms in Deep Rising weren't realistic, but they'd work
fine in Shadowrun. :-)

--
Deird'Re M. Brooks | xenya@********.com | cam#9309026
Listowner: Aberrants_Worldwide, Fading_Suns_Games, TrinityRPG
"If you loved me, you'd all kill yourselves today."
-- Spider Jerusalem | http://www.teleport.com/~xenya
Message no. 33
From: Deirdre M. Brooks xenya@********.com
Subject: -REVIEW- Cannon Companion
Date: Tue, 11 Apr 2000 12:50:04 -0700
abortion_engine wrote:
>
> Sci-fi doesn't grant a writ of immunity to the laws of intelligent writing,
> and we shouldn't let it. We should demand that our game make sense and be,
> for lack of a better term, good.

Well, thank god the game is good.

FWIW, I have yet to see a plausibly written piece of science fiction
(hard, soft or whatever you want to call it) that does *not* rely on
something not currently considered possible or likely. Plausible given
extensions to current knowledge? Yes. Realistic? No. "Realistic" is a
fool's game. It's a straw man that has no real place at the sacrifice of
playability or fun.

Internal consistency in the game world is much more important.

--
Deird'Re M. Brooks | xenya@********.com | cam#9309026
Listowner: Aberrants_Worldwide, Fading_Suns_Games, TrinityRPG
"If you loved me, you'd all kill yourselves today."
-- Spider Jerusalem | http://www.teleport.com/~xenya
Message no. 34
From: abortion_engine abortion_engine@*******.com
Subject: -REVIEW- Cannon Companion
Date: Tue, 11 Apr 2000 15:55:06 -0400
From: "Deirdre M. Brooks" <xenya@********.com>
> Shadowrun has cinematic physics, I think. Not quite so cinematic as Feng
> Shui, but enough that you can pull off standard action movie stunts,
> esp. with a large karma pool.

See, I attempt to eliminate such things. I see no need for it. Then again,
being a larger fan of reality than I am of "action movies," perhaps the
explanation is simple. We seldom use Karma, for that matter; while
impossible-seeming things do sometimes happen, they do not do so on a
regular basis.

> I know the firearms in Deep Rising weren't realistic, but they'd work
> fine in Shadowrun. :-)

I've not seen this "Deep Rising," but if the guns in it weren't realistic,
then *I* don't believe they'd "work just fine in Shadowrun."
Message no. 35
From: Deirdre M. Brooks xenya@********.com
Subject: -REVIEW- Cannon Companion
Date: Tue, 11 Apr 2000 13:02:04 -0700
abortion_engine wrote:
>
> that it makes sense. But handheld armor-defeating killing lasers aren't
> likely in 2060, and if you're going to posit the existance of the damned
> things, you should at least attempt to have them make sense without the sort
> of uneducated handwaving SR is so well-known for. [For evidence of how to
> handwave well, see Ken or Raygun.]

Shadowrun's tech is actually unrealistically low for the timeframe. But
since no science fiction will ever get it right (with maybe a few
exceptions), I don't think it's really worth worrying about.

> Sci-fi doesn't *have* to be unrealistic to survive, and the closer the tech
> level is to our own, the closer one must watch one's ideas to make certain
> they're realistic. If one wishes to maintain plausable disbelief.

Perhaps the tech level you think 2060 should be at is closer to what
2020 will be at. Or 2015. Or 2010.

> I think the concept of Shadowrun is simple; it is a future, plus magic.
> Anything that doesn't fit with that needs to be eliminated.

What doesn't fit?

Laser pistols? Well, don't use them. That's easy enough. A crusade to
eliminate them from the books is probably a bad idea, especially using
such silly terminology as "realistic" and "intelligent" to describe
writing that excludes material you clearly dislike (the corollary being
"writing that includes material you clearly dislike is unrealistic and
stupid").

> Correct, which is why science fiction is such a barren genre, in terms of
> literature; the greatest mass of it pays no heed to being good, in literary
> terms. And that's very sad, since science fiction has some wonderful
> possibilities. But, as with romance novels, if it would like respect, it
> needs to have more than the few authors it possesses right now writing for
> all time, and not for grocery-store shelf space for a week. It needs to
> write for adults, and not teenagers.

You mean Greg Egan? Charles Pellegrino? KW Jeter? S.M. Sterling? Harry
Turtledove? Perhaps you're not widely read enough to see the good stuff?

--
Deird'Re M. Brooks | xenya@********.com | cam#9309026
Listowner: Aberrants_Worldwide, Fading_Suns_Games, TrinityRPG
"If you loved me, you'd all kill yourselves today."
-- Spider Jerusalem | http://www.teleport.com/~xenya
Message no. 36
From: Tzeentch tzeentch666@*********.net
Subject: -REVIEW- Cannon Companion
Date: Tue, 11 Apr 2000 13:09:19 -0700
From: "Martin Steffens (Berlitz)" <v-marts@*********.com>

> > CANNON COMPANION REVIEW
> [GigaSnip]
>
> Thanks! Excellent and detailed review. You convinced me
> to leave this one alone until I have a bigger order for
> my RPG supplier :).

Well, it's not a BAD book. Just not enough thought went into the "Cannon"
part of the book. The new combat rules are actually VERY nice.

> Thanks again for the effort of writing this.

I call em' like I see em.

Ken
---------------------------
There's a war out there, old friend, a world war. And it's not about who's
got the most bullets, it's about who controls the information. What we see
and hear, how we work, what we think, it's all about the information
Cosmo, 'Sneakers'
Message no. 37
From: Deirdre M. Brooks xenya@********.com
Subject: -REVIEW- Cannon Companion
Date: Tue, 11 Apr 2000 13:08:23 -0700
abortion_engine wrote:
>
> See, I attempt to eliminate such things. I see no need for it. Then again,
> being a larger fan of reality than I am of "action movies," perhaps the
> explanation is simple. We seldom use Karma, for that matter; while
> impossible-seeming things do sometimes happen, they do not do so on a
> regular basis.

Then you're clearly not the primary target market for Shadowrun. Simple,
no?

> > I know the firearms in Deep Rising weren't realistic, but they'd work
> > fine in Shadowrun. :-)
>
> I've not seen this "Deep Rising," but if the guns in it weren't realistic,
> then *I* don't believe they'd "work just fine in Shadowrun."

Well, not in *your* vision of Shadowrun. Last I checked, Mike Mulvehill
develops the line. Now, the formats in the new books aren't my favorite,
but he hasn't changed (to my perceptions) the degree of "realism" that
was present ever since the SSC. Since you've clearly adapted to a
variant that works best for you, is it necessary to pillory the
supplements because they don't fit your rather narrowly defined model?

--
Deird'Re M. Brooks | xenya@********.com | cam#9309026
Listowner: Aberrants_Worldwide, Fading_Suns_Games, TrinityRPG
"If you loved me, you'd all kill yourselves today."
-- Spider Jerusalem | http://www.teleport.com/~xenya
Message no. 38
From: Tzeentch tzeentch666@*********.net
Subject: -REVIEW- Cannon Companion
Date: Tue, 11 Apr 2000 13:16:32 -0700
From: "abortion_engine" <abortion_engine@*******.com>
> > It is a science fiction world after all and
> > some leeway has to be given.
>
> By the way, I would like to point out the logical fallacy of this
statement.
> Not to pick on you, Kawaii, but you mentioned it most recently.

uh oh ;)

> Why should leeway be given for sci-fi? If something occurs within our
> universe, with our physical laws, things that would literally be
> *impossible* in our universe should similarly be impossible in the sci-fi
> world. While magic and the like are possible [if obviously not
realistically
> likely] given the extra layer given to our world by Shadowrun, things like
> "lethal voltage feedback" a staple of cyberpunk decking, are not possible.
> Luckily, SR doesn't rely on this silly concept.

*COUGH* Sparky IC *COUGH*
I'm prayng to the Elder Gods that that bogosity of nature vanishes in The
Matrix. It's about the lamest part of the Matrix system.

> Even SR's magic has always seemed a little weak to me, as the internal
> inconsistancy of true history and SR history detract from the game, for
me.
> But that's just for myself and a few like me, and so I understand that
it's
> not a real issue. But obvious, glaring idiocy shouldn't be countenanced.
> Vibroblades and impossibly powerful pistol lasers are silly and
unrealistic,
> and shouldn't be part of the game.

Actually I don't have a problem with lasers except for their silly effects
on armor.

> Sci-fi doesn't grant a writ of immunity to the laws of intelligent
writing,
> and we shouldn't let it. We should demand that our game make sense and be,
> for lack of a better term, good.

Well, push comes to shove I'll just settle for "good." Shadowrun is a good
game, but not necessarily one that makes sense.

> > But when the game system violates not just real world physics but even
the
> > gameworld physics, it is hard to just accept that it works and not
> question.
> > ;)
>
> Agreed, obviously.

That was my point, even given the zany reality of Shadowrun some things just
plain don't make sense. I don't even think it was intentional when the
designers gave some pistols a higher Power then some rifles (but the rifles
have a better Damage Level right? - that's probably what they were
thinking).

Ken
---------------------------
There's a war out there, old friend, a world war. And it's not about who's
got the most bullets, it's about who controls the information. What we see
and hear, how we work, what we think, it's all about the information!
Cosmo, 'Sneakers'
Message no. 39
From: Deirdre M. Brooks xenya@********.com
Subject: -REVIEW- Cannon Companion
Date: Tue, 11 Apr 2000 13:30:59 -0700
"Deirdre M. Brooks" wrote:
>
> variant that works best for you, is it necessary to pillory the
> supplements because they don't fit your rather narrowly defined model?

Apologies to Abortion Engine for this - I overstated my case and used
stronger terminology than was appropriate. All I can say is that I let
AE push some of my buttons (although I doubt he intended to do so) and
overreacted.

My disagreement stands, but I don't think AE is "narrow" or
"pillorying"
anyone (or any of the other inflammatory statements).

--
Deird'Re M. Brooks | xenya@********.com | cam#9309026
Listowner: Aberrants_Worldwide, Fading_Suns_Games, TrinityRPG
"If you loved me, you'd all kill yourselves today."
-- Spider Jerusalem | http://www.teleport.com/~xenya
Message no. 40
From: abortion_engine abortion_engine@*******.com
Subject: -REVIEW- Cannon Companion
Date: Tue, 11 Apr 2000 16:34:52 -0400
From: "Deirdre M. Brooks" <xenya@********.com>
> abortion_engine wrote:
> > that it makes sense. But handheld armor-defeating killing lasers aren't
> > likely in 2060, and if you're going to posit the existance of the damned
> > things, you should at least attempt to have them make sense without the
sort
> > of uneducated handwaving SR is so well-known for. [For evidence of how
to
> > handwave well, see Ken or Raygun.]
>
> Shadowrun's tech is actually unrealistically low for the timeframe. But
> since no science fiction will ever get it right (with maybe a few
> exceptions), I don't think it's really worth worrying about.

With the [clever, fortunate] inclusion of The Crash, it actually makes quite
a bit of sense.

I'm one of those fellows who's always telling people, when they attempt to
predict technology, that they're not looking far enough ahead. In 2060,
we'll be seeing things we can't conceive of now, just as the Internet could
have have been conceived in 1932. And technology is developing faster now
than ever before, in exponential progression. Still, I think deployment on
any scale above prototype novelty of hand-held killing armor-defeating
lasers is unlikely.

> > Sci-fi doesn't *have* to be unrealistic to survive, and the closer the
tech
> > level is to our own, the closer one must watch one's ideas to make
certain
> > they're realistic. If one wishes to maintain plausable disbelief.
>
> Perhaps the tech level you think 2060 should be at is closer to what
> 2020 will be at. Or 2015. Or 2010.

Again, as I say above, I generally expect far more development than is
likely.

> > I think the concept of Shadowrun is simple; it is a future, plus magic.
> > Anything that doesn't fit with that needs to be eliminated.
>
> What doesn't fit?
>
> Laser pistols? Well, don't use them. That's easy enough.

That's the most bloody rediculous argument, and I'm so tired of hearing it.
If the product is flawed, which should I do; modify it, or desire a product
that is not flawed? Granted, complaining to all of you about the issue
accomplishes nothing, but complaining in the right ears does. Altering the
product, after paying for it, seems rediculous. And many people, as FASA
slips further and further into the realm of needing repairs, will simply
start buyign books for games that don't need repairs.

> A crusade to
> eliminate them from the books is probably a bad idea, especially using
> such silly terminology as "realistic" and "intelligent" to
describe
> writing that excludes material you clearly dislike (the corollary being
> "writing that includes material you clearly dislike is unrealistic and
> stupid").

Actually, my personal dislike has nothing to do with objective realism,
internal consistancy, or quality. You are assuming that I dislike, on
principal, things like lasers. This is untrue. I like lasers. I own a few. I
built one. I like lasers a great deal, in real life and in roleplaying. But
I don't like this pistol-sized laser in SR. It makes no sense and weakens
the game.

> > Correct, which is why science fiction is such a barren genre, in terms
of
> > literature; the greatest mass of it pays no heed to being good, in
literary
> > terms. And that's very sad, since science fiction has some wonderful
> > possibilities. But, as with romance novels, if it would like respect, it
> > needs to have more than the few authors it possesses right now writing
for
> > all time, and not for grocery-store shelf space for a week. It needs to
> > write for adults, and not teenagers.
>
> You mean Greg Egan? Charles Pellegrino? KW Jeter? S.M. Sterling? Harry
> Turtledove? Perhaps you're not widely read enough to see the good stuff?

I think any presumption of yours that relies on my not being well-read will
turn out to be false. I have read various works by each of those writers,
with the exception of Pellegrino, who I am unfamiliar with, and still find
nothing that will stand any true test of time. My apologies if your opinions
differ.
Message no. 41
From: abortion_engine abortion_engine@*******.com
Subject: -REVIEW- Cannon Companion
Date: Tue, 11 Apr 2000 16:40:45 -0400
From: "Deirdre M. Brooks" <xenya@********.com>
> abortion_engine wrote:
> > See, I attempt to eliminate such things. I see no need for it. Then
again,
> > being a larger fan of reality than I am of "action movies," perhaps
the
> > explanation is simple. We seldom use Karma, for that matter; while
> > impossible-seeming things do sometimes happen, they do not do so on a
> > regular basis.
>
> Then you're clearly not the primary target market for Shadowrun. Simple,
> no?

Oh, I'm aware I am very much outside the target market for the game. I'm too
old, and evidently, desire realism too much. But I am also not alone. A
large number of people clamor for more quality, more images, more
in-character discussion, and more internal consistancy. True, I, personally,
am not the target market, but many of the people who are dislike the current
direction of the game.

> > > I know the firearms in Deep Rising weren't realistic, but they'd work
> > > fine in Shadowrun. :-)
> >
> > I've not seen this "Deep Rising," but if the guns in it weren't
realistic,
> > then *I* don't believe they'd "work just fine in Shadowrun."
>
> Well, not in *your* vision of Shadowrun. Last I checked, Mike Mulvehill
> develops the line. Now, the formats in the new books aren't my favorite,
> but he hasn't changed (to my perceptions) the degree of "realism" that
> was present ever since the SSC. Since you've clearly adapted to a
> variant that works best for you, is it necessary to pillory the
> supplements because they don't fit your rather narrowly defined model?

Yes, Mike Mulvihill develops the line. But guess who buys it? Raise your
hands, everyone. And many of the people here who have spent the most money
on the product - myself included - dislike the current direction of things.

No, SSC wasn't realistic. But simply because a thing has always been broken
does not mean we should not fix it. The idea is to improve with time, not to
fall back.

My model, which is to say, internal consistancy, is hardly "narrowly
defined." It is as wide as the real world, and wider still, allowing for
things like magic and metahumans and the Matrix. But you're right; my sieve
is too fine to allow coarse idiocy like the Redline in my game. And I don't
think there's anything wrong with making my opinion on the issue known.
Message no. 42
From: Even even@***********.fr
Subject: -REVIEW- Cannon Companion
Date: Tue, 11 Apr 2000 22:40:43 +0200
Deirdre M. Brooks wrote:

> Shadowrun's tech is actually unrealistically low for the timeframe.
> But since no science fiction will ever get it right (with maybe a
> few exceptions), I don't think it's really worth worrying about.

Lots of valuable information was lost during the crash of '29. That could serve as an
explanation (or an apology). But I agree with your last sentence anyway, I'm just
quibbling. :-)
--
(>) Alleycat [even.tomte@*********.com]
Message no. 43
From: abortion_engine abortion_engine@*******.com
Subject: -REVIEW- Cannon Companion
Date: Tue, 11 Apr 2000 16:43:39 -0400
From: "Tzeentch" <tzeentch666@*********.net>
> > Why should leeway be given for sci-fi? If something occurs within our
> > universe, with our physical laws, things that would literally be
> > *impossible* in our universe should similarly be impossible in the
sci-fi
> > world. While magic and the like are possible [if obviously not
> realistically
> > likely] given the extra layer given to our world by Shadowrun, things
like
> > "lethal voltage feedback" a staple of cyberpunk decking, are not
possible.
> > Luckily, SR doesn't rely on this silly concept.
>
> *COUGH* Sparky IC *COUGH*
> I'm prayng to the Elder Gods that that bogosity of nature vanishes in The
> Matrix. It's about the lamest part of the Matrix system.

You really hate Sparky IC, don't you, Tzeetch? :) Well, I for one, obviously
agree with you.

> Actually I don't have a problem with lasers except for their silly effects
> on armor.

You're fine with that level of power output with so little shielding?
Really?

> > Sci-fi doesn't grant a writ of immunity to the laws of intelligent
> writing,
> > and we shouldn't let it. We should demand that our game make sense and
be,
> > for lack of a better term, good.
>
> Well, push comes to shove I'll just settle for "good." Shadowrun is a good
> game, but not necessarily one that makes sense.

Given a forced choice, obviously, I'll settle for "good" over "makes
sense,"
but I don't feel we should settle. I think we should always strive for both.

> That was my point, even given the zany reality of Shadowrun some things
just
> plain don't make sense. I don't even think it was intentional when the
> designers gave some pistols a higher Power then some rifles (but the
rifles
> have a better Damage Level right? - that's probably what they were
> thinking).

Who knows what they were thinking? *sigh*
Message no. 44
From: abortion_engine abortion_engine@*******.com
Subject: -REVIEW- Cannon Companion
Date: Tue, 11 Apr 2000 16:53:59 -0400
From: "Deirdre M. Brooks" <xenya@********.com>
> abortion_engine wrote:
> > Sci-fi doesn't grant a writ of immunity to the laws of intelligent
writing,
> > and we shouldn't let it. We should demand that our game make sense and
be,
> > for lack of a better term, good.
>
> FWIW, I have yet to see a plausibly written piece of science fiction
> (hard, soft or whatever you want to call it) that does *not* rely on
> something not currently considered possible or likely. Plausible given
> extensions to current knowledge? Yes. Realistic? No. "Realistic" is a
> fool's game. It's a straw man that has no real place at the sacrifice of
> playability or fun.

I'm not terribly concerned with fun, and for my purposes, realism *is*
playability.

Some science fiction, especially older, "harder" sci-fi, relies almost
entirely on things considered possible at the time they were written.
"Realistic" is simply, in this case, "plausible and internally
consistent."

> Internal consistency in the game world is much more important.

When the game world is, as it is in SR, simply an extension of reality,
internal consistency *is,* by definition, realism. You must use the physics
of the world you're extending from, unless you intend to create some new
universe with different physical laws, which SR does not presume to do.
Message no. 45
From: abortion_engine abortion_engine@*******.com
Subject: -REVIEW- Cannon Companion
Date: Tue, 11 Apr 2000 16:55:32 -0400
From: "Deirdre M. Brooks" <xenya@********.com>
> "Deirdre M. Brooks" wrote:
> > variant that works best for you, is it necessary to pillory the
> > supplements because they don't fit your rather narrowly defined model?
>
> Apologies to Abortion Engine for this - I overstated my case and used
> stronger terminology than was appropriate. All I can say is that I let
> AE push some of my buttons (although I doubt he intended to do so) and
> overreacted.

No offense was taken in any way. It seems to be a common event, my pushing
the buttons of those around me. I assure you that no button-pushing was
intended.
Message no. 46
From: Deirdre M. Brooks xenya@********.com
Subject: -REVIEW- Cannon Companion
Date: Tue, 11 Apr 2000 13:53:08 -0700
abortion_engine wrote:
>
> > Then you're clearly not the primary target market for Shadowrun. Simple,
> > no?
>
> Oh, I'm aware I am very much outside the target market for the game. I'm too
> old, and evidently, desire realism too much. But I am also not alone. A
> large number of people clamor for more quality, more images, more
> in-character discussion, and more internal consistancy. True, I, personally,
> am not the target market, but many of the people who are dislike the current
> direction of the game.

I want: More quality, more in-character discussion and more internal
consistency. I want cool material that doesn't contradict or devalue
other material. I want it to *sound plausible* even if it's not strictly
realistic.

And I'd like to see the game line find that balance I discussed
elsewhere.

The rest of the post: I hope my apology made it through. If not, it's
offered again. I should've avoided the word "narrow" and other loaded
terms.

--
Deird'Re M. Brooks | xenya@********.com | cam#9309026
Listowner: Aberrants_Worldwide, Fading_Suns_Games, TrinityRPG
"If you loved me, you'd all kill yourselves today."
-- Spider Jerusalem | http://www.teleport.com/~xenya
Message no. 47
From: Deirdre M. Brooks xenya@********.com
Subject: -REVIEW- Cannon Companion
Date: Tue, 11 Apr 2000 13:54:07 -0700
Even wrote:
>
> Deirdre M. Brooks wrote:
>
> > Shadowrun's tech is actually unrealistically low for the timeframe.
> > But since no science fiction will ever get it right (with maybe a
> > few exceptions), I don't think it's really worth worrying about.
>
> Lots of valuable information was lost during the crash of '29. That
> could serve as an explanation (or an apology). But I agree with your
> last sentence anyway, I'm just quibbling. :-)

I completely spaced the Crash of 29, strangely.

--
Deird'Re M. Brooks | xenya@********.com | cam#9309026
Listowner: Aberrants_Worldwide, Fading_Suns_Games, TrinityRPG
"If you loved me, you'd all kill yourselves today."
-- Spider Jerusalem | http://www.teleport.com/~xenya
Message no. 48
From: Tzeentch tzeentch666@*********.net
Subject: -REVIEW- Cannon Companion
Date: Tue, 11 Apr 2000 13:58:23 -0700
From: "abortion_engine" <abortion_engine@*******.com>

SPARKY IC
> You really hate Sparky IC, don't you, Tzeetch? :) Well, I for one,
obviously
> agree with you.

Between Sparky IC and the BOGUS notion of hacking satellites (that rears its
ugly head in CC again witht he cut-n'-paste text from Fields of Fire) I'm
not sure which one needs the axe more.

> > Actually I don't have a problem with lasers except for their silly
effects
> > on armor.
>
> You're fine with that level of power output with so little shielding?
> Really?

Well, actually I am ;) You mean heat shielding? Look at the weight of the
Redline "pistol", it weighs 5 kilograms (over 10 pounds!)

There is ONE thing that is starting to bug me though - if you assume (as I
do) that the Redline is a 415kJ beam weapon and consumes ABOUT 830kW per
shot then you HAVE to assume that Shadowrun energy cell technology is WAY
WAY WAY better then anything mentioned in Rigger 2 or anywhere else. We're
talking a pistol CLIP sized energy cell that holds 8,300kW of power! Thats
about 43 PF (using Power Factors as a measure of both energy storage and use
here). Anyone want to figure the energy density on that bad boy?

Now, am I expecting this marvel of science to be mentioned ever again? Nope,
which means yet another incongruity is introduced into the game (along with
the effectiveness of psychotropic IC as compared to PAB conditioning).

GOOD AND MAKING SENSE
> Given a forced choice, obviously, I'll settle for "good" over "makes
sense,"
> but I don't feel we should settle. I think we should always strive for
both.

True. But I can't think of too many games off-hand that can do both. CP2020
originally had both until Chromebook 2, then slid VERY quickly into both Bad
and Makes No Sense. It's a slipperly slope I hope SR does not fall into with
the later "gear" books like Rigger 3/Redux and the eventual SOTA books.

Ken
---------------------------
There's a war out there, old friend, a world war. And it's not about who's
got the most bullets, it's about who controls the information. What we see
and hear, how we work, what we think, it's all about the information!
Cosmo, 'Sneakers'
Message no. 49
From: Deirdre M. Brooks xenya@********.com
Subject: -REVIEW- Cannon Companion
Date: Tue, 11 Apr 2000 14:01:27 -0700
abortion_engine wrote:
>
> No offense was taken in any way. It seems to be a common event, my pushing
> the buttons of those around me. I assure you that no button-pushing was
> intended.

It's nigh-impossible for you to push them if you didn't know they were
there. I assumed a more extreme view than you were posting. :-/ Previous
experiences.

--
Deird'Re M. Brooks | xenya@********.com | cam#9309026
Listowner: Aberrants_Worldwide, Fading_Suns_Games, TrinityRPG
"If you loved me, you'd all kill yourselves today."
-- Spider Jerusalem | http://www.teleport.com/~xenya
Message no. 50
From: Deirdre M. Brooks xenya@********.com
Subject: -REVIEW- Cannon Companion
Date: Tue, 11 Apr 2000 14:09:48 -0700
abortion_engine wrote:
>
> > Internal consistency in the game world is much more important.
>
> When the game world is, as it is in SR, simply an extension of reality,
> internal consistency *is,* by definition, realism. You must use the physics
> of the world you're extending from, unless you intend to create some new
> universe with different physical laws, which SR does not presume to do.

I think there needs to be some degree of flexibility in this. Sure, the
laser pistol sounds over-the-top, but Shadowrun also has genre
conventions appropriate to cyberpunk and post-cyberpunk material that
isn't realistic, but fits nicely into the setting - the Matrix falls
into this category, possibly.

There are still limits, but I don't think they're quite *that* rigid.
How rigid they should be clearly depends on the observer. If the next
book were "Mind over Matter: The Jedi Sourcebook" and included blasters,
hyperdrives and lightsabers, that'd break my SOD for the setting. An
extreme example, of course.

--
Deird'Re M. Brooks | xenya@********.com | cam#9309026
Listowner: Aberrants_Worldwide, Fading_Suns_Games, TrinityRPG
"If you loved me, you'd all kill yourselves today."
-- Spider Jerusalem | http://www.teleport.com/~xenya
Message no. 51
From: abortion_engine abortion_engine@*******.com
Subject: -REVIEW- Cannon Companion
Date: Tue, 11 Apr 2000 17:50:45 -0400
From: "Deirdre M. Brooks" <xenya@********.com>
> I want: More quality, more in-character discussion and more internal
> consistency. I want cool material that doesn't contradict or devalue
> other material. I want it to *sound plausible* even if it's not strictly
> realistic.

I want all of those things, save the last, obviously. At the very least,
it'd be nice if they would *try* to be realistic...
Message no. 52
From: Deirdre M. Brooks xenya@********.com
Subject: -REVIEW- Cannon Companion
Date: Tue, 11 Apr 2000 14:50:31 -0700
abortion_engine wrote:
>
> From: "Deirdre M. Brooks" <xenya@********.com>
> > I want: More quality, more in-character discussion and more internal
> > consistency. I want cool material that doesn't contradict or devalue
> > other material. I want it to *sound plausible* even if it's not strictly
> > realistic.
>
> I want all of those things, save the last, obviously. At the very least,
> it'd be nice if they would *try* to be realistic...

If it looks plausible, it'll probably look realistic. That's rather the
definition.

--
Deird'Re M. Brooks | xenya@********.com | cam#9309026
Listowner: Aberrants_Worldwide, Fading_Suns_Games, TrinityRPG
"If you loved me, you'd all kill yourselves today."
-- Spider Jerusalem | http://www.teleport.com/~xenya
Message no. 53
From: abortion_engine abortion_engine@*******.com
Subject: -REVIEW- Cannon Companion
Date: Tue, 11 Apr 2000 17:54:31 -0400
From: "Tzeentch" <tzeentch666@*********.net>
> From: "abortion_engine" <abortion_engine@*******.com>
> Between Sparky IC and the BOGUS notion of hacking satellites (that rears
its
> ugly head in CC again witht he cut-n'-paste text from Fields of Fire) I'm
> not sure which one needs the axe more.

Maybe the Panther Assault Cannon. Whoops, that wasn't a choice, was it? :)

> > You're fine with that level of power output with so little shielding?
> > Really?
>
> Well, actually I am ;) You mean heat shielding? Look at the weight of the
> Redline "pistol", it weighs 5 kilograms (over 10 pounds!)

Well, heat, electrical, reaction. I mean, what they hell are they doing
inside that clip to generate that kind of energy? That's a little close to
the limits of energy density in material, unless they're fusing. ;)

> There is ONE thing that is starting to bug me though - if you assume (as I
> do) that the Redline is a 415kJ beam weapon and consumes ABOUT 830kW per
> shot then you HAVE to assume that Shadowrun energy cell technology is WAY
> WAY WAY better then anything mentioned in Rigger 2 or anywhere else. We're
> talking a pistol CLIP sized energy cell that holds 8,300kW of power! Thats
> about 43 PF (using Power Factors as a measure of both energy storage and
use
> here). Anyone want to figure the energy density on that bad boy?

Again, this density is, in my opinion, not probable. What's today's most
energy-dense cell?

> Now, am I expecting this marvel of science to be mentioned ever again?
Nope,
> which means yet another incongruity is introduced into the game (along
with
> the effectiveness of psychotropic IC as compared to PAB conditioning).

Oh, no, they'll mention it. When it leads further down some road to Rifts,
they'll bring this up in defense.

> > Given a forced choice, obviously, I'll settle for "good" over
"makes
> sense,"
> > but I don't feel we should settle. I think we should always strive for
> both.
>
> True. But I can't think of too many games off-hand that can do both.
CP2020
> originally had both until Chromebook 2, then slid VERY quickly into both
Bad
> and Makes No Sense. It's a slipperly slope I hope SR does not fall into
with
> the later "gear" books like Rigger 3/Redux and the eventual SOTA books.

Paranoia? <grin>
Message no. 54
From: abortion_engine abortion_engine@*******.com
Subject: -REVIEW- Cannon Companion
Date: Tue, 11 Apr 2000 18:13:02 -0400
From: "Deirdre M. Brooks" <xenya@********.com>
> abortion_engine wrote:
> > From: "Deirdre M. Brooks" <xenya@********.com>
> > > I want: More quality, more in-character discussion and more internal
> > > consistency. I want cool material that doesn't contradict or devalue
> > > other material. I want it to *sound plausible* even if it's not
strictly
> > > realistic.
> >
> > I want all of those things, save the last, obviously. At the very least,
> > it'd be nice if they would *try* to be realistic...
>
> If it looks plausible, it'll probably look realistic. That's rather the
> definition.

Ah, yes, but just because it "sounds plausible" [your words] doesn't mean it
is "realistic," [mine]. And what sounds plausible to Mike Mulvihill,
unfortunately, all-too-often doesn't soudn plausible to the rest of us.
Message no. 55
From: Tzeentch tzeentch666@*********.net
Subject: -REVIEW- Cannon Companion
Date: Tue, 11 Apr 2000 15:23:25 -0700
From: "abortion_engine" <abortion_engine@*******.com>

DITCHING THE DROSS
> Maybe the Panther Assault Cannon. Whoops, that wasn't a choice, was it? :)

Well, IRL there ARE things that are similar to what I ASSUME the Panther is
based on. Although given its effects I'm now leaning to the position that
the designer of that monster watched Robocop a lot (think of the Cobra
assault cannon from Robocop 1 and 2...).

Hell, there are 20mm PISTOLS IRL. Beat that ;)

THE THIN REDLINE (GET IT?!)
> Well, heat, electrical, reaction. I mean, what they hell are they doing
> inside that clip to generate that kind of energy? That's a little close to
> the limits of energy density in material, unless they're fusing. ;)

Why, it's powered by the some munhkinium particles that your body gives off
to power all that cyberware! See, they harness the munhkinium particles and
create an miniauture NPU-style battery. Of course this is supplemented by
Orgone energy.

I mean, you would think it was unrealistic or something!

> Again, this density is, in my opinion, not probable. What's today's most
> energy-dense cell?

Based on G3 and current tech "C" rechargable battery has 135 joules per
gram. Lesse, based on G3 the formula I get....uhhh.... well.. over 1 million
kilograms needed to store enough power for the Redline, and that's without
the needed capactiors/HPGs

;) Well, I don't have much faith in how G3 handles energy weapons so take
that with large grains of rock salt!

I do get sick weights even in FFS though, you're better off using Vehicles
2ed for figuring mass of batteries in this case (since I did use V2e as the
source for the beam power).

RIFTS
> Oh, no, they'll mention it. When it leads further down some road to Rifts,
> they'll bring this up in defense.

Hey, I'm a cynic but I doubt FASA could go the road of Rifts easily. That
almost takes massive application of thought to create a game so inherently
unbalanced, unrealistic, incoherent, unplaytested, and just plain terrible.

Come on now, we're talking about a game where IR searchlights are "high
tech" for the love of Bob. Those were outdated in the 50s!

Ken
---------------------------
There's a war out there, old friend, a world war. And it's not about who's
got the most bullets, it's about who controls the information. What we see
and hear, how we work, what we think, it's all about the information!
Cosmo, 'Sneakers'
Message no. 56
From: Deirdre M. Brooks xenya@********.com
Subject: -REVIEW- Cannon Companion
Date: Tue, 11 Apr 2000 15:22:03 -0700
abortion_engine wrote:
>
> > If it looks plausible, it'll probably look realistic. That's rather the
> > definition.
>
> Ah, yes, but just because it "sounds plausible" [your words] doesn't mean
it
> is "realistic," [mine]. And what sounds plausible to Mike Mulvihill,
> unfortunately, all-too-often doesn't soudn plausible to the rest of us.

That's very clear. It's a subjective assessment - but then, things that
didn't look plausible ten years ago are quite realistic now. I can pick
and choose from material Mike develops and expand with my own, so I'm
not concerned with whether anything is "realistic," as noted elsewhere.
Realistic, after all, is often as subjective as "plausible." And when I
look for a game with "realistic" factors, I don't look at Shadowrun for
them.*

* I usually look to GURPS, and only parts of it. I don't think a game
exists that pulls off "fun" *and* "strict realism."

--
Deird'Re M. Brooks | xenya@********.com | cam#9309026
Listowner: Aberrants_Worldwide, Fading_Suns_Games, TrinityRPG
"If you loved me, you'd all kill yourselves today."
-- Spider Jerusalem | http://www.teleport.com/~xenya
Message no. 57
From: Tzeentch tzeentch666@*********.net
Subject: -REVIEW- Cannon Companion
Date: Tue, 11 Apr 2000 15:28:59 -0700
From: "Deirdre M. Brooks" <xenya@********.com>

> That's very clear. It's a subjective assessment - but then, things that
> didn't look plausible ten years ago are quite realistic now. I can pick
> and choose from material Mike develops and expand with my own, so I'm
> not concerned with whether anything is "realistic," as noted elsewhere.
> Realistic, after all, is often as subjective as "plausible." And when I
> look for a game with "realistic" factors, I don't look at Shadowrun for
> them.*
>
> * I usually look to GURPS, and only parts of it. I don't think a game
> exists that pulls off "fun" *and* "strict realism."

Well, most of the GDW games were hard science (with a few curveballs like
stutterwarp or jump drives). 2300AD is pretty realistic, but saddled by one
of the crappiest rules systems I have ever read.

Ken
---------------------------
There's a war out there, old friend, a world war. And it's not about who's
got the most bullets, it's about who controls the information. What we see
and hear, how we work, what we think, it's all about the information!
Cosmo, 'Sneakers'
Message no. 58
From: abortion_engine abortion_engine@*******.com
Subject: -REVIEW- Cannon Companion
Date: Tue, 11 Apr 2000 18:53:12 -0400
From: "Tzeentch" <tzeentch666@*********.net>
> From: "abortion_engine" <abortion_engine@*******.com>
> Well, IRL there ARE things that are similar to what I ASSUME the Panther
is
> based on. Although given its effects I'm now leaning to the position that
> the designer of that monster watched Robocop a lot (think of the Cobra
> assault cannon from Robocop 1 and 2...).

Agreed. On the Robocop issue, if nothing else.
> THE THIN REDLINE (GET IT?!)

You're a monster. Puns are the lowest form of humour. I should know. :)

> > Well, heat, electrical, reaction. I mean, what they hell are they doing
> > inside that clip to generate that kind of energy? That's a little close
to
> > the limits of energy density in material, unless they're fusing. ;)
>
> Why, it's powered by the some munhkinium particles that your body gives
off
> to power all that cyberware! See, they harness the munhkinium particles
and
> create an miniauture NPU-style battery. Of course this is supplemented by
> Orgone energy.
>
> I mean, you would think it was unrealistic or something!

Thank you. Munchkinium. That explains it all. Perhaps these are also used in
the construction of Ares Vipers and all Shadowrun silencers.

> > Again, this density is, in my opinion, not probable. What's today's most
> > energy-dense cell?
>
> Based on G3 and current tech "C" rechargable battery has 135 joules per
> gram. Lesse, based on G3 the formula I get....uhhh.... well.. over 1
million
> kilograms needed to store enough power for the Redline, and that's without
> the needed capactiors/HPGs

Well, G3 notwithstanding, I think that's probably about right. Which is,
obviously, rediculous. Not that a C battery is state-of-the-art, but I think
everyone gets the picture.

> RIFTS
> > Oh, no, they'll mention it. When it leads further down some road to
Rifts,
> > they'll bring this up in defense.
>
> Hey, I'm a cynic but I doubt FASA could go the road of Rifts easily. That
> almost takes massive application of thought to create a game so inherently
> unbalanced, unrealistic, incoherent, unplaytested, and just plain
terrible.

Hyperbole on my account. I think. I hope.
Message no. 59
From: Alfredo B Alves dghost@****.com
Subject: -REVIEW- Cannon Companion
Date: Tue, 11 Apr 2000 20:16:40 -0500
On Tue, 11 Apr 2000 11:36:26 +0200 "Gurth" <gurth@******.nl> writes:
> According to Alfredo B Alves, at 23:40 on 10 Apr 00, the word on the
> street was...
>
> > The current police issue firearm is a legal weapon. The Ruger
> > Thunderbolt, like all burst fire capable weapons are classified as
> > MILITARY hardware. You can't even get permits for them. Tough
> > luck.

> It's listed as 2P-E in CC, so it a) is a civilian pistol and b) can
> be had
> on a permit.

That's odd. REALLY odd. (the legality code I was thinking of was G, not
M. Oops.) So the Ceska Skorpion is less dangerous but more illegal?

--
D. Ghost
A Mathematician is a machine for turning coffee into theorems
--Paul Erdos

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Message no. 60
From: Deirdre M. Brooks xenya@********.com
Subject: -REVIEW- Cannon Companion
Date: Tue, 11 Apr 2000 19:42:55 -0700
Tzeentch wrote:
>
> Well, most of the GDW games were hard science (with a few curveballs like
> stutterwarp or jump drives). 2300AD is pretty realistic, but saddled by one
> of the crappiest rules systems I have ever read.

Rather, the perception of what would be hard science *then*. Even so, I
don't think Traveller ever fell into anything *but* space opera (and is
just fine as such). A harder version of space opera than, say, 2300, but
still.

2300 was an interesting idea, although the word "Traveller" should've
never been attached.

This is off-topic, isn't it... :-)

--
Deird'Re M. Brooks | xenya@********.com | cam#9309026
Listowner: Aberrants_Worldwide, Fading_Suns_Games, TrinityRPG
"If you loved me, you'd all kill yourselves today."
-- Spider Jerusalem | http://www.teleport.com/~xenya
Message no. 61
From: Mark Imbriaco mark.imbriaco@*****.com
Subject: -REVIEW- Cannon Companion
Date: Tue, 11 Apr 2000 23:19:41 -0400 (EDT)
On Tue, 11 Apr 2000, abortion_engine wrote:

> > Laser pistols? Well, don't use them. That's easy enough.
>
> That's the most bloody rediculous argument, and I'm so tired of hearing it.
> If the product is flawed, which should I do; modify it, or desire a product
> that is not flawed? Granted, complaining to all of you about the issue
> accomplishes nothing, but complaining in the right ears does. Altering the
> product, after paying for it, seems rediculous. And many people, as FASA
> slips further and further into the realm of needing repairs, will simply
> start buyign books for games that don't need repairs.

So you'll let me know when you find this mythical perfect game, right?
Really, I've been looking for it for years. Puh-leeeeze. There are
ALWAYS going to be things in a game that you disagree with [unless you're
the only author], which is why most every game stresses that the GM should
happily chuck any rules that he dislikes into the trash.

-Mark
Message no. 62
From: Deirdre M. Brooks xenya@********.com
Subject: -REVIEW- Cannon Companion
Date: Tue, 11 Apr 2000 20:16:50 -0700
Mark Imbriaco wrote:
>
> So you'll let me know when you find this mythical perfect game, right?
> Really, I've been looking for it for years. Puh-leeeeze. There are
> ALWAYS going to be things in a game that you disagree with [unless you're
> the only author], which is why most every game stresses that the GM should
> happily chuck any rules that he dislikes into the trash.

Oh, yeah. I've yet to see a product that isn't flawed, and I think the
insistence that a book *not* have material that a few people dislike
(for whatever reason) is insane. Why? Because not *everyone* dislikes
it. I don't dislike the Redline or the Panther, nor am I likely to
develop a dislike. If I did, I can just ignore them as needed.

--
Deird'Re M. Brooks | xenya@********.com | cam#9309026
Listowner: Aberrants_Worldwide, Fading_Suns_Games, TrinityRPG
"If you loved me, you'd all kill yourselves today."
-- Spider Jerusalem | http://www.teleport.com/~xenya
Message no. 63
From: Rand Ratinac docwagon101@*****.com
Subject: -REVIEW- Cannon Companion
Date: Tue, 11 Apr 2000 20:41:51 -0700 (PDT)
<Snippage(TM)>
> Sci-fi doesn't grant a writ of immunity to the laws
of intelligent writing, and we shouldn't let it. We
should demand that our game make sense and be, for
lack of a better term, good.

You can demand that, ae. Personally, I don't care. I
don't think whether a game is good or not depends on
it making complete sense when compared with the
physical world. Maybe I'm in the minority. I don't
care about that either. If the game is fun (and it
IS!), then I don't give a damn about how many laws of
physics it violates.

Sorry, ae. I like you, buddy, you know that, but your
seeming insistence on realism above all else bugs me.
I can understand how you might feel that way (I like
to be as realistic as possible when I write my
stories), but I don't think it's earth-shattering if
vibroblades or hand-held laser pistols can't REALLY
exist, but are in a game. Could you explain to me WHY
you equate realism with a game being good?

====Doc'
(aka Mr. Freaky Big, Super-Dynamic Troll of Tomorrow, aka Doc'-booner)

S.S. f. P.S.C. & D.J.

.sig Sauer

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Message no. 64
From: dbuehrer@******.carl.org dbuehrer@******.carl.org
Subject: -REVIEW- Cannon Companion
Date: Wed, 12 Apr 2000 08:41:16 -0600
abortion_engine wrote:
>From: "Tzeentch" <tzeentch666@*********.net>
> > From: "abortion_engine" <abortion_engine@*******.com>
>
> > > You're fine with that level of power output with so little shielding?
> > > Really?
> >
> > Well, actually I am ;) You mean heat shielding? Look at the weight of the
> > Redline "pistol", it weighs 5 kilograms (over 10 pounds!)
>
>Well, heat, electrical, reaction. I mean, what they hell are they doing
>inside that clip to generate that kind of energy? That's a little close to
>the limits of energy density in material, unless they're fusing. ;)

See, now I look at this and start to think of how I can use this in my
game. The question isn't so much, "How did they do that?" It's, "How can
I use this in an adventure?"

Maybe the battery pack incorporates a relative of FAB that taps into a
metaplane and converts mana to energy. And are the natives of that
metaplane happy about that? Or will the characters get hired to do a
shadowrun on the lab that developed this battery and find themselves knee
deep in metamagic theory and men in black robes.

Maybe the battery was invented by a wonder kid and he's not even sure how
it works. In any case, the runners are hired by one megacorp to steal him
from another megacorp. With something as energy efficient as this battery
pack, you can bet the megacorps will throw *lot* of their weight around,
and the poor runners will get caught in the crossfire.

"For every action, there is an equal and opposite reaction." Maybe the
battery pack achieves such a high energy density for a high price. Of
course, the lab guys that cooked this up are under orders by the PR
department not to divulge this information. But one of the lab guys can't
stand it anymore and has contacted the runners that he has important
information on the "hazards" of the laser pistol battery pack, and hires
them to deliver a disk to the appropriate authorities. Maybe the battery
pack is so energy dense because of an inherent molecular instability, and
that instability has a chance of eventually resulting in a small nuclear
event (small explosion, but *lots* of radiation).

To Life,
-Graht
http://www.users.uswest.net/~abaker3
--
"Today is the tomorrow you worried about yesterday ... and all is well."
Message no. 65
From: abortion_engine abortion_engine@*******.com
Subject: -REVIEW- Cannon Companion
Date: Wed, 12 Apr 2000 12:35:22 -0400
From: "Mark Imbriaco" <mark.imbriaco@*****.com>
> On Tue, 11 Apr 2000, abortion_engine wrote:
> > That's the most bloody rediculous argument, and I'm so tired of hearing
it.
> > If the product is flawed, which should I do; modify it, or desire a
product
> > that is not flawed? Granted, complaining to all of you about the issue
> > accomplishes nothing, but complaining in the right ears does. Altering
the
> > product, after paying for it, seems rediculous. And many people, as FASA
> > slips further and further into the realm of needing repairs, will simply
> > start buyign books for games that don't need repairs.
>
> So you'll let me know when you find this mythical perfect game, right?
> Really, I've been looking for it for years. Puh-leeeeze. There are
> ALWAYS going to be things in a game that you disagree with [unless you're
> the only author], which is why most every game stresses that the GM should
> happily chuck any rules that he dislikes into the trash.

And we should simply stop asking for a better product?

Obviously, we're not all going to find SR perfect. But there are a number of
flaws that a number of people are complaining about, and it's time something
changed. I think I can round up a person or two who can tell you that there
are a few fixable problems with SR that could be repaired without upsetting
anyone else.
Message no. 66
From: abortion_engine abortion_engine@*******.com
Subject: -REVIEW- Cannon Companion
Date: Wed, 12 Apr 2000 12:40:00 -0400
From: "Rand Ratinac" <docwagon101@*****.com>
> <Snippage(TM)>
> > Sci-fi doesn't grant a writ of immunity to the laws
> of intelligent writing, and we shouldn't let it. We
> should demand that our game make sense and be, for
> lack of a better term, good.
>
> You can demand that, ae. Personally, I don't care. I
> don't think whether a game is good or not depends on
> it making complete sense when compared with the
> physical world. Maybe I'm in the minority. I don't
> care about that either. If the game is fun (and it
> IS!), then I don't give a damn about how many laws of
> physics it violates.

No, Rand, you're not in the minority. I am. Maybe it's age, maybe it's my
slightly bizarre life, but I find no fun when a thing makes no sense. Maybe
it's my scientific background. I don't know. But when I'm watching a movie
and something *impossible* happens, the film is suddenly not as fun. SR is
the same way. Obviously, you make some allowances - hell, modelling reality
in your head with eight other people sitting there isn't going to be
perfect, books or no - but we should strive for reality, in my mind, or at
least provide provision for it that won't sacrifice fun. You should be able
to get yours, I should be able to get mine.

> Sorry, ae. I like you, buddy, you know that, but your
> seeming insistence on realism above all else bugs me.
> I can understand how you might feel that way (I like
> to be as realistic as possible when I write my
> stories), but I don't think it's earth-shattering if
> vibroblades or hand-held laser pistols can't REALLY
> exist, but are in a game. Could you explain to me WHY
> you equate realism with a game being good?

Hell, no. :) I can't explain it. I can't see how a thing can make no sense
and be fun, though. My mind is not like yours in this way. I think perhaps
we've found some sort of flaw in me. :) I just can't stand the irreal
without a damned good explanation. Paranoia, I've no problem with; reality
is never its intent. But why establish a game in a known universe and then
ignore its laws?
Message no. 67
From: Sebastian Wiers m0ng005e@*********.com
Subject: -REVIEW- Cannon Companion
Date: Wed, 12 Apr 2000 12:11:04 -0500
:> There is ONE thing that is starting to bug me though - if you assume (as
I
:> do) that the Redline is a 415kJ beam weapon and consumes ABOUT 830kW per
:> shot then you HAVE to assume that Shadowrun energy cell technology is WAY
:> WAY WAY better then anything mentioned in Rigger 2 or anywhere else.
We're
:> talking a pistol CLIP sized energy cell that holds 8,300kW of power!
Thats
:> about 43 PF (using Power Factors as a measure of both energy storage and
:use
:> here). Anyone want to figure the energy density on that bad boy?

About HALF the energy desity of the "laser III" hip battery, which
weighs twice as much but takes 4 times as long to fully charge?
And THAT battery is pretty much the one used in FoF and SSC...
This laser battery stuff is hardly even freakin NEWS - why are people
razzing on CC for it, and simultaniously ignoring they fact that nobody ever
never noticed it was a problem in SSC or FoF? As far as "percent of
material" goes, lasers were much bigger news in both of those books, and I
don't see anybody saying those books sucked, or boded "ruin" for the game,
just because the lasers were unrealisitic. It obviously does NOT affect
your enjoyment of the game, if you liked either of those books, so why does
it suddenly matter now?

BTW, The energy dessity (for the redline "clip') would be about 40PF /
8,000 KW per kilo (pretty easy math, eh?), which is actually rather LOW for
the figures in R2- adding extra PF capaicity to an electric power system
results in NO load reduction!

:Again, this density is, in my opinion, not probable. What's today's most
:energy-dense cell?

Nowhere near that, and its never going to happen with a chemical
reaction batterey. Advanced IC capicitor designs might come close. Current
manufacturing won't let you pack those solid into a brick, but
nano-manufacturing, or a dedicated manufacturing line, could. Flywheel
storage, especially on a nano-manufacturing scale, can store a LOT of energy
(limited only by how you accelerate the flywheel and how much stress it can
take), but extracting it quickly (as electricity, at least) is problematic.

:> Now, am I expecting this marvel of science to be mentioned ever again?
:Nope,
:> which means yet another incongruity is introduced into the game (along
:with
:> the effectiveness of psychotropic IC as compared to PAB conditioning).

As I said, another incongruity is "introduced"? It was alreay there.
And is it realy incongrous, given the vehicle design rules?
So, FASA maintained continuity within thier weapons tech, and you slag
them for it? I think once something has been around that long, it's just
"part of the game", for good or bad.

BTW, I don't think PAB (also not by any means a new idea) is
"innefective" compared to psychotropic IC. Its just a used for an entirely
different purpose. A simple psychotopic BTL (which most folks who use PAB
could produce or have access to) will do what psychotopic IC does. PAB
instead involves the alteration of memories. If you want to combine the
two, you could use the psychotorpic BTL, then replace the memory of that
using PAB....

Mongoose



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Message no. 68
From: Mark Imbriaco mark.imbriaco@*****.com
Subject: -REVIEW- Cannon Companion
Date: Wed, 12 Apr 2000 14:20:52 -0400 (EDT)
On Wed, 12 Apr 2000, abortion_engine wrote:

> From: "Mark Imbriaco" <mark.imbriaco@*****.com>
> > On Tue, 11 Apr 2000, abortion_engine wrote:
> > > That's the most bloody rediculous argument, and I'm so tired of hearing
> it.
> > > If the product is flawed, which should I do; modify it, or desire a
> product
> > > that is not flawed? Granted, complaining to all of you about the issue
> > > accomplishes nothing, but complaining in the right ears does. Altering
> the
> > > product, after paying for it, seems rediculous. And many people, as FASA
> > > slips further and further into the realm of needing repairs, will simply
> > > start buyign books for games that don't need repairs.
> >
> > So you'll let me know when you find this mythical perfect game, right?
> > Really, I've been looking for it for years. Puh-leeeeze. There are
> > ALWAYS going to be things in a game that you disagree with [unless you're
> > the only author], which is why most every game stresses that the GM should
> > happily chuck any rules that he dislikes into the trash.
>
> And we should simply stop asking for a better product?

Not at all. I never even implied that.

> Obviously, we're not all going to find SR perfect. But there are a number of
> flaws that a number of people are complaining about, and it's time something
> changed. I think I can round up a person or two who can tell you that there
> are a few fixable problems with SR that could be repaired without upsetting
> anyone else.

Sure there are, and I'd be one of them. But saying that you'll switch to
buying books for games that don't need repair is really the thing that I
took issue with: There's no such thing. If you find one, let me know.
I'd love to hear about it.

-Mark
Message no. 69
From: abortion_engine abortion_engine@*******.com
Subject: -REVIEW- Cannon Companion
Date: Wed, 12 Apr 2000 14:33:11 -0400
From: "Mark Imbriaco" <mark.imbriaco@*****.com>
> On Wed, 12 Apr 2000, abortion_engine wrote:
> > From: "Mark Imbriaco" <mark.imbriaco@*****.com>
> > > So you'll let me know when you find this mythical perfect game, right?
> > > Really, I've been looking for it for years. Puh-leeeeze. There are
> > > ALWAYS going to be things in a game that you disagree with [unless
you're
> > > the only author], which is why most every game stresses that the GM
should
> > > happily chuck any rules that he dislikes into the trash.
> >
> > And we should simply stop asking for a better product?
>
> Not at all. I never even implied that.

Okay, just making certain.

> > Obviously, we're not all going to find SR perfect. But there are a
number of
> > flaws that a number of people are complaining about, and it's time
something
> > changed. I think I can round up a person or two who can tell you that
there
> > are a few fixable problems with SR that could be repaired without
upsetting
> > anyone else.
>
> Sure there are, and I'd be one of them. But saying that you'll switch to
> buying books for games that don't need repair is really the thing that I
> took issue with: There's no such thing. If you find one, let me know.
> I'd love to hear about it.

Perhaps I should have said, "games that need less repair." You're right;
there is no "perfect" game. But if I find one, I'll let you know. :)
Message no. 70
From: vocenoctum@****.com vocenoctum@****.com
Subject: -REVIEW- Cannon Companion
Date: Wed, 12 Apr 2000 19:28:47 -0400
On Mon, 10 Apr 2000 18:22:39 -0700 "Tzeentch" <tzeentch666@*********.net>
writes:
<snippage throughout>
> The title Cannon Companion is actually somewhat misleading, since
> comparatively little of the book actually deals with firearms
> specifically.

Well, thats why it the "Cannon Companion" not the "Big Book O' Guns"
its
a companion to all your cannons... :-)

> FIREARMS
> Technical Accuracy
> Nobody at FASA has yet figured out how their damage modeling is
> messed up.
> High power weapons penetrate armor better - its a function of how
> the system
> works. But we still have pistols that can penetrate armor easier
> then
> assault rifles.

I doubt this will occur unless/until there's a SR4, its too major of a
change to swap everything in a sourcebook. IMO at least.

> Still absolutely no plausible reason the "same" gun is available as
> both
> caseless and cased versions. The technologies used are quite
> different, and
> will result in weapons having VERY little in common except maybe
> name.

This falls under the Developers Say, instead of having all the weapons
listed twice, just note that you can have them either way. Perhaps a note
of "Caseless models are calll <insert name> A2 or something, but
otherwise...)

> And the final problem is weapons like LMGs. There is no reason why
> their
> damage code should be higher then that of an assault rifle. You
> can't even
> apply the "barrel length" argument to this. Even games like Rifts
> get this
> right.

I don't use LMGs in my campaign much, the Rifles confuse ME. I have my
own house rules (on my site) that I like, so I don't complain any more.

> The M24A3 water carbine... I'll cut and paste Raygun's comment here
> since he
> summed it up better then me:

I still don't like the water carbine for the simple matter of there being
a big wall of water at the end of the barrel. Damage should fall off just
as well as range, besides the hydrostatic shock to the wielder.

> AMMUNITION AND EXPLOSIVES
<I don't comment on the types that are really just "sci-fi" rounds)

> Glazers. Wow, hope Glaser does not hear about this. I THINK its
> supposed to
> be based on Glaser Safety Rounds, but these don't work anything like
> real
> glasers. Essentially these are "exploding bullets".

Amend the description to read "Glazer rounds are PREFRAGMENTED rounds
with a thin metal jacket that BREAKS INTO Flechette (Shot really,
but)-like fragments upon impact."
That should correct it good enough, and the rules are good enough, even
though I (obviously) like mine better :-)

> Bola rounds for shotguns. These are a gimmick (I've actually used
> these and
> Dragonsbreath ammo (which the "Temper" rounds are based on). Don't
> believe
> the hype.
>

I have heard the Dragon's Breath actually work decently, never figured on
trying the bola's :-)

> Shock Lock rounds. Frangible ammunition. This is new?

new to SR, but so are chainsaws. Of course, since some GMs dictate when
the stuff is available in their games by book, chainsaws won't be
"invented" until 2061ish.

Vocenoctum
<http://members.xoom.com/vocenoctum>;

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Message no. 71
From: Rand Ratinac docwagon101@*****.com
Subject: -REVIEW- Cannon Companion
Date: Wed, 12 Apr 2000 19:52:40 -0700 (PDT)
> > You can demand that, ae. Personally, I don't care.
I don't think whether a game is good or not depends on
it making complete sense when compared with the
physical world. Maybe I'm in the minority. I don't
care about that either. If the game is fun (and it
IS!), then I don't give a damn about how many laws of
physics it violates.
>
> No, Rand, you're not in the minority. I am. Maybe
it's age, maybe it's my slightly bizarre life, but I
find no fun when a thing makes no sense. Maybe it's my
scientific background. I don't know. But when I'm
watching a movie and something *impossible* happens,
the film is suddenly not as fun. SR is the same way.
Obviously, you make some allowances - hell, modelling
reality in your head with eight other people sitting
there isn't going to be perfect, books or no - but we
should strive for reality, in my mind, or at least
provide provision for it that won't sacrifice fun. You
should be able to get yours, I should be able to get
mine.

Maybe it's your Prententious Jackass gene.

;)

*Doc' runs..*

> > Sorry, ae. I like you, buddy, you know that, but
your seeming insistence on realism above all else bugs
me. I can understand how you might feel that way (I
like to be as realistic as possible when I write my
stories), but I don't think it's earth-shattering if
vibroblades or hand-held laser pistols can't REALLY
exist, but are in a game. Could you explain to me WHY
you equate realism with a game being good?
>
> Hell, no. :) I can't explain it. I can't see how a
thing can make no sense and be fun, though. My mind is
not like yours in this way. I think perhaps we've
found some sort of flaw in me. :) I just can't stand
the irreal without a damned good explanation.
Paranoia, I've no problem with; reality is never its
intent. But why establish a game in a known universe
and then ignore its laws?

For the sake of entertainment would be my guess. Sorry
- I know saying something like that must set you on
edge. :) And it's not like they're throwing the laws
of physics out the window wholesale. Hell, even I'd
object if everyone in SR could suddenly fly, or see
through walls, or breathe in outer space etc. etc.

*"Ugh...ae's brain...funny...cun-neck-shuns scroo-ey.
Me fix...me give ae low-bottom-lee..."*

====Doc'
(aka Mr. Freaky Big, Super-Dynamic Troll of Tomorrow, aka Doc'-booner)

S.S. f. P.S.C. & D.J.

.sig Sauer

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Message no. 72
From: Martin Steffens (Berlitz) v-marts@*********.com
Subject: -REVIEW- Cannon Companion
Date: Thu, 13 Apr 2000 04:54:16 -0700
From: Brett Sanger:

[cannon companion]
> Be sure to read my (more positive) review in the upcoming
> TSS 12 before giving up on this book completely.

I didn't say I would give up on it. The rational part of my
brain says I should, but since when does that win from the
"need to buy everything SR" part? :)

I just said that I'm not running to the shops for it. I'll
get it when there's something more interesting to order at
the same time. Although I did promise myself to stop buying
SR if they make another book as boring to read as M&M. But
that's probably going to end up on the pile of new year's
resolutions...

*Martin wonders if he should pay Doc royalties for using the *
enclosed comments at the bottom, but his "don't give a heck,
and I wouldn't pay anyway" part of his brain is also winning
from the rational bits*


Martin Steffens
e-mail: v-marts@*********.com
phone: 70 666 44
Message no. 73
From: Rand Ratinac docwagon101@*****.com
Subject: -REVIEW- Cannon Companion
Date: Thu, 13 Apr 2000 19:53:04 -0700 (PDT)
> *Martin wonders if he should pay Doc royalties for
using the * enclosed comments at the bottom, but his
"don't give a heck, and I wouldn't pay anyway" part of
his brain is also winning from the rational bits*

*Doc' hires Deird're to dance Martin to death...

"No one uses the *'s but me! No one! NO ONE!!!!!

"Muahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhh...*sucks
in deep
breath*...hahahahhahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahah!"
*cough, choke, splutter*

"Yeah, that'll do..."*

====Doc'
(aka Mr. Freaky Big, Super-Dynamic Troll of Tomorrow, aka Doc'-booner)

S.S. f. P.S.C. & D.J.

.sig Sauer

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Message no. 74
From: Paul J. Adam Paul@********.demon.co.uk
Subject: -REVIEW- Cannon Companion
Date: Fri, 14 Apr 2000 23:40:37 +0100
In article <20000411.000337.-847461.0.dghost@****.com>, Alfredo B
Alves <dghost@****.com> writes
>The current police issue firearm is a legal weapon. The Ruger
>Thunderbolt, like all burst fire capable weapons are classified as
>MILITARY hardware. You can't even get permits for them. Tough luck.

Over here, the standard police weapons are H&K MP-5s and Glock 17s.
We're not allowed semi-automatic _anything_, or any pistols.

Just 'cause civilians can't have it, doesn't mean the cops can't.
--
Paul J. Adam
Message no. 75
From: Paul J. Adam Paul@********.demon.co.uk
Subject: -REVIEW- Cannon Companion
Date: Fri, 14 Apr 2000 23:46:38 +0100
In article <20000412034151.19291.qmail@******.mail.yahoo.com>, Rand
Ratinac <docwagon101@*****.com> writes
>You can demand that, ae. Personally, I don't care. I
>don't think whether a game is good or not depends on
>it making complete sense when compared with the
>physical world. Maybe I'm in the minority. I don't
>care about that either. If the game is fun (and it
>IS!), then I don't give a damn about how many laws of
>physics it violates.

It depends. If I want a "total suspension of disbelief" game I'll play
Traveller. (Not even Mega... I've still got Basic Traveller rules from 1984)
Three thousand years from now, you can let a _lot_ slide.

Shadowrun is an extrapolation of where we are today. Hell, I might still be
alive in 2060 :) Probably scrabbling for cash to Leonise :) Which means,
for me, stuff that's obviously bogus spoils my enjoyment of it.

YMMV, and probably does.

--
Paul J. Adam
Message no. 76
From: Paul J. Adam Paul@********.demon.co.uk
Subject: -REVIEW- Cannon Companion
Date: Fri, 14 Apr 2000 23:56:07 +0100
In article <NDBBJKDPILEDDICFDMIBKEPKCJAA.arclight@*********.de>,
Arclight <arclight@*********.de> writes
>IMHO laser weapons, with a slight exception for ship-mounted
>systems, are more Star Wars than Shadowrun. They just don't feel
>right for me, and my game.

I'm fiddling with stats for a Shadowrun plasma cannon.

Manportable. Powerful. Deadly.

About as good as a LAW, actually... needs a five-pound chemical cartridge
to be loaded for each shot, definite two-man crew, and isn't yet much
better than what you can do with rocket motors propelling a chemical
explosive charge.


I liked Traveller 2300 for that reason - gauss weapons and laser weapons
were good, but not _that_ great compared to simple, reliable, proven CPR
slugthrowers.

When a laser rifle is robust enough that you can beat an enemy insensible
with the buttstock and still have the weapon fire once reloaded, _then_
it'll be an infantry weapon...

--
Paul J. Adam
Message no. 77
From: Tzeentch tzeentch666@*********.net
Subject: -REVIEW- Cannon Companion
Date: Fri, 14 Apr 2000 16:00:16 -0700
From: "Paul J. Adam" <Paul@********.demon.co.uk>
> I'm fiddling with stats for a Shadowrun plasma cannon.
>
> Manportable. Powerful. Deadly.
>
> About as good as a LAW, actually... needs a five-pound chemical cartridge
> to be loaded for each shot, definite two-man crew, and isn't yet much
> better than what you can do with rocket motors propelling a chemical
> explosive charge.

So it's like the PIG from the Colonial Marine Tech Manual? Or a PGMP?

> I liked Traveller 2300 for that reason - gauss weapons and laser weapons
> were good, but not _that_ great compared to simple, reliable, proven CPR
> slugthrowers.

2300AD is pretty cool.

> When a laser rifle is robust enough that you can beat an enemy insensible
> with the buttstock and still have the weapon fire once reloaded, _then_
> it'll be an infantry weapon...

Heh ;)

Ken
---------------------------
There's a war out there, old friend, a world war. And it's not about who's
got the most bullets, it's about who controls the information. What we see
and hear, how we work, what we think, it's all about the information!
Cosmo, 'Sneakers'
Message no. 78
From: Logan Graves logan1@********.net
Subject: -REVIEW- Cannon Companion
Date: Fri, 14 Apr 2000 20:53:29 -0400
In our last episode, "Paul J. Adam" wrote:
>
> When a laser rifle is robust enough that you can beat an enemy insensible
> with the buttstock and still have the weapon fire once reloaded, _then_
> it'll be an infantry weapon...

Bravo, sirrah!

-F
_____________________________________________Fenris@************.virtualAve.net
Message no. 79
From: Paul J. Adam Paul@********.demon.co.uk
Subject: -REVIEW- Cannon Companion
Date: Sat, 15 Apr 2000 08:20:16 +0100
In article <002f01bfa665$33ba0540$db6b1b3f@*************.net>, Tzeentch
<tzeentch666@*********.net> writes
>From: "Paul J. Adam" <Paul@********.demon.co.uk>
>> I'm fiddling with stats for a Shadowrun plasma cannon.
>>
>> Manportable. Powerful. Deadly.
>>
>> About as good as a LAW, actually... needs a five-pound chemical cartridge
>> to be loaded for each shot, definite two-man crew, and isn't yet much
>> better than what you can do with rocket motors propelling a chemical
>> explosive charge.
>
>So it's like the PIG from the Colonial Marine Tech Manual? Or a PGMP?

A single-shot PGMP, using chemical power cartridges that are pretty hefty
(and are still glowing red-hot when they're ejected).

--
Paul J. Adam

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