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Message no. 1
From: shadowrn@*********.com (Brother Justice)
Subject: Reworking Essence
Date: Thu Apr 26 11:45:01 2001
For those of you who frequent the Dumpshock forums, you may have witnessed
some of the work I'm doing for an upcoming campaign. I'm not quite finding
the answers I'm looking for there, so it's time to walk on the wild side.
(Note: Before I move on, if anybody has books nearby and could quote that
little paragraph or two about the reasons why cyberware costs Essence from
the front of the Cyberware section in M&M, I'd love you to death.)

I've already redesigned the way Essence works as well as what Essence loss
and Bio Index gain mean for my own home games. (If you folks want the rules,
I'll gladly post them later. Just ask.) I'm now in the process of looking at
the cost of each individual piece of cyber/bio and re-evaluating said cost.
But here's the problem. According to M&M, technology implanted into the body
costs Essence when "microsurgery and nanotechnology affect the central
nervous system." (We'll set aside the fact that much of the 'ware in M&M
doesn't follow that simple rule, for the present.) Does that mean, in your
opinions, that the greater the piece uses microsurgery and nanotechnology to
invade and modify the central nervous system, the higher the Essence costs?
What exactly determines how much Essence a given piece of cyberware costs?
FASA's cost have little rhyme or reason to them. I'm trying to figure out
some of the design philosophies here, and things simply aren't adding up.
Any help folks?
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Message no. 2
From: shadowrn@*********.com (Damion Milliken)
Subject: Reworking Essence
Date: Thu Apr 26 12:05:04 2001
Brother Justice writes:

> FASA's cost have little rhyme or reason to them. I'm trying to figure out
> some of the design philosophies here, and things simply aren't adding up.
> Any help folks?

Not really I'm afraid. The definition of Essence, and why cyberware costs
it has changed from Edition to Edition, and even with the release of various
sourcebooks. My all time favourite definition is from Awakenings (I think),
and does not include references to "neural connections" and all that garbage
that should make Bone Lacing cost zero Essence. The description was
something like the addition of cyberware altered your aura dramatically from
your 'metahuman aural template' (ie, what your aura _should_ look like), and
the larger the change, the greater the Essence cost. Once you altered the
aura too much, it began to wither and die, and the body sympathetically shut
down and failed too (as anything that happens to your aura happens to you
too). That way "major" implants had a high Essence cost, even if they were
inert like Dermal Armour, small like a VCR, or otherwise didn't fit the
various descriptions of why Essence was lost with cyber implantation.

--
Damion Milliken University of Wollongong
Unofficial Shadowrun Guru E-mail: dam01@***.edu.au
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D G+ e++>++++$ h(*) r++ y-(--)
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Message no. 3
From: shadowrn@*********.com (aaron chappell)
Subject: Reworking Essence
Date: Thu Apr 26 12:10:01 2001
Hey chummers,

Begin quoting protocols:

Cyberware needs to be implanted and connected to the
neuropathways unlike pins and pace makers which have
no need to talk to the brain .
So this machine metal , ceramic , polymers abd itger
future-tech stuff must be connected to the ol' fleshy
gray matter. This is how cyberware differs from all
other implants, and it is here that essence is lost.



Hope that suffices chummer

Gwylly, Elven Physical Adept



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Message no. 4
From: shadowrn@*********.com (Michael Yacht)
Subject: Reworking Essence
Date: Thu Apr 26 12:15:02 2001
> Damion Milliken writes:
>
> Not really I'm afraid. The definition of Essence, and why cyberware costs
> it has changed from Edition to Edition, and even with the release of
various
> sourcebooks. My all time favourite definition is from Awakenings (I
think),
> and does not include references to "neural connections" and all that
garbage
> that should make Bone Lacing cost zero Essence. The description was
> something like the addition of cyberware altered your aura dramatically
from
> your 'metahuman aural template' (ie, what your aura _should_ look like),
and
> the larger the change, the greater the Essence cost. Once you altered the
> aura too much, it began to wither and die, and the body sympathetically
shut
> down and failed too (as anything that happens to your aura happens to you
> too). That way "major" implants had a high Essence cost, even if they
were
> inert like Dermal Armour, small like a VCR, or otherwise didn't fit the
> various descriptions of why Essence was lost with cyber implantation.
>

I personally like the description of Cyberpunk 2020. They don't call it
Essence, but Humanity. The more metal you cram in there, the more you
separate yourself from the bulk of humanity, the less 'human' you become.
You lose the ability to relate to the average man, you no longer see as they
do, feel as they do, hear as they do .. it makes you alien to them and them
to you.

-Meatnog
Message no. 5
From: shadowrn@*********.com (Damion Milliken)
Subject: Reworking Essence
Date: Thu Apr 26 12:25:01 2001
Michael Yacht writes:

> I personally like the description of Cyberpunk 2020. They don't call it
> Essence, but Humanity. The more metal you cram in there, the more you
> separate yourself from the bulk of humanity, the less 'human' you become.
> You lose the ability to relate to the average man, you no longer see as they
> do, feel as they do, hear as they do .. it makes you alien to them and them
> to you.

Is there a limit in CP2020 as to how much 'ware you can pack in before you
die, or suffer other unpleasant physical (not social or emotional) effects?

--
Damion Milliken University of Wollongong
Unofficial Shadowrun Guru E-mail: dam01@***.edu.au
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D G+ e++>++++$ h(*) r++ y-(--)
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Message no. 6
From: shadowrn@*********.com (Michael Yacht)
Subject: Reworking Essence
Date: Thu Apr 26 13:30:01 2001
----- Original Message -----
From: "Damion Milliken" <dam01@***.edu.au>
To: <shadowrn@*********.com>
Sent: Thursday, April 26, 2001 12:25 PM
Subject: Re: Reworking Essence


> Michael Yacht writes:
>
> > I personally like the description of Cyberpunk 2020. They don't call it
> > Essence, but Humanity. The more metal you cram in there, the more you
> > separate yourself from the bulk of humanity, the less 'human' you
become.
> > You lose the ability to relate to the average man, you no longer see as
they
> > do, feel as they do, hear as they do .. it makes you alien to them and
them
> > to you.
>
> Is there a limit in CP2020 as to how much 'ware you can pack in before you
> die, or suffer other unpleasant physical (not social or emotional)
effects?
>

Yep, you'd go insane. They called it 'cyberpsychosis'.

It was a totally detachment from humanity. Some people would just die from
the physiological strain, others would turn into sociopaths, others
technophiles. Either way, if you hit 0 humanity, you became an NPC.
Message no. 7
From: shadowrn@*********.com (BD)
Subject: Reworking Essence
Date: Thu Apr 26 13:45:01 2001
> (Note: Before I move on, if anybody has books nearby and could quote that
> little paragraph or two about the reasons why cyberware costs Essence
> from
> the front of the Cyberware section in M&M, I'd love you to death.)

Not sure if you got this already. Here y'go:

(p.10, M&M)
<snip much of paragraph saying Essence limits cyber>
In SR3, Essence is defined as a body's life force, its wholeness, its
cohesive and holistic strength. Cyberware cuts through that like a hot
knife through butter.
Essence loss is not simply a result of removing flesh: people who replace
limbs or organs but do not replace them with cyberware do not lose Essence.
The loss of Essence is a result of connecting a machine to the nervous
system using microsurgery and nanotechnology. By doing so, you have
changed the fundamental nature of your body--you gain an operational
advantage, but you are no longer whole.

Ta-da!

====-Boondocker

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Message no. 8
From: shadowrn@*********.com (Gurth)
Subject: Reworking Essence
Date: Thu Apr 26 14:05:21 2001
According to Michael Yacht, on Thu, 26 Apr 2001 the word on the street was...

> I personally like the description of Cyberpunk 2020. They don't call it
> Essence, but Humanity. The more metal you cram in there, the more you
> separate yourself from the bulk of humanity, the less 'human' you become.
> You lose the ability to relate to the average man, you no longer see as they
> do, feel as they do, hear as they do .. it makes you alien to them and them
> to you.

And by which reasoning, someone with two artificial legs IRL should be
almost psychotic in the CP2020 sense... (Where's Stainless Steel Rat when
you need him? :)

--
Gurth@******.nl - http://www.xs4all.nl/~gurth/index.html
If there are vegetarian hamburgers, why isn't there beef lettuce?
-> NAGEE Editor * ShadowRN GridSec * Triangle Virtuoso <-
-> The Plastic Warriors Page: http://plastic.dumpshock.com <-

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Message no. 9
From: shadowrn@*********.com (Gurth)
Subject: Reworking Essence
Date: Thu Apr 26 14:05:26 2001
According to Damion Milliken, on Thu, 26 Apr 2001 the word on the street was...

> Is there a limit in CP2020 as to how much 'ware you can pack in before you
> die, or suffer other unpleasant physical (not social or emotional) effects?

You have an Empathy attribute, which runs from 2 to 10 for normal people
(like every other attribute in CP2020). Every point of Humanity lost
reduces Empathy by 0.1 as well, and when it gets low enough you'll become
anti-social and worse. At 3 you're cold and uncaring, while if it goes down
to 0 (or less) you're basically a violent, psychotic maniac who kills
everyone he comes across.

The problem here, from a rules perspective, is quite obvious: assign as
many points as possible to Empathy during character creation, and you can
have lots of cyber without getting any real problems.

There is also a believability problem, IMHO: if cyberware makes people
psychotic, then how do you explain disabled people who become _happier_
when they get prosthetic limbs?

--
Gurth@******.nl - http://www.xs4all.nl/~gurth/index.html
If there are vegetarian hamburgers, why isn't there beef lettuce?
-> NAGEE Editor * ShadowRN GridSec * Triangle Virtuoso <-
-> The Plastic Warriors Page: http://plastic.dumpshock.com <-

GC3.12: GAT/! d-(dpu) s:- !a>? C+@ UL P L++ E W-(++) N o? K w+(--) O V?
PS+ PE(-)(+) Y PGP- t@ 5++ X(+) R+++(-)>$ tv+ b++@ DI- D+ G+ e h! !r y?
Incubated into the First Church of the Sqooshy Ball, 21-05-1998
Message no. 10
From: shadowrn@*********.com (Brother Justice)
Subject: Reworking Essence
Date: Thu Apr 26 14:40:05 2001
>From: BD <l3oondocker@*****.com>
>Reply-To: shadowrn@*********.com
>To: shadowrn@*********.com
>Subject: Re: Reworking Essence
>Date: Thu, 26 Apr 2001 10:49:18 -0700 (PDT)
>
> Ta-da!
>
>====>-Boondocker

Yup, that was it. Thanks Boondocker!

<<BIG SMOOCH!>> ;)


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Message no. 11
From: shadowrn@*********.com (Brother Justice)
Subject: Reworking Essence
Date: Thu Apr 26 14:45:01 2001
>From: Gurth <Gurth@******.nl>
>Reply-To: shadowrn@*********.com
>To: shadowrn@*********.com
>Subject: Re: Reworking Essence
>Date: Thu, 26 Apr 2001 19:48:11 +0200
>
>The problem here, from a rules perspective, is quite obvious: assign as
>many points as possible to Empathy during character creation, and you can
>have lots of cyber without getting any real problems.
>
>There is also a believability problem, IMHO: if cyberware makes people
>psychotic, then how do you explain disabled people who become _happier_
>when they get prosthetic limbs?
>
>--
>Gurth@******.nl - http://www.xs4all.nl/~gurth/index.html

Exactly. Tzeentch, IIRC, brought up the CP rules over on the forums. There
are some aspects I'm considering for implementation, perhaps some small
portions of the cyberpsychosis idea. But most of it is filled with just as
many holes as the Essence idea, regardless of whether the the 3rd edition
"neural structure" or 2nd edition "astral template".
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Message no. 12
From: shadowrn@*********.com (Rand Ratinac)
Subject: Reworking Essence
Date: Thu Apr 26 23:00:01 2001
<snipt!(TM)>
> I personally like the description of Cyberpunk 2020.
They don't call it Essence, but Humanity. The more
metal you cram in there, the more you separate
yourself from the bulk of humanity, the less 'human'
you become. You lose the ability to relate to the
average man, you no longer see as they do, feel as
they do, hear as they do .. it makes you alien to them
and them to you.
> -Meatnog

Well, that explains how having too much cyber might
drive someone insane, 'Nog, but it does little to
explain why it would kill someone. This is a different
game - there are (optional?) rules for how having too
much cyber can make you seem alien to the common man,
but even then having that cyber doesn't make YOU less
human - someone with 5 points of non-obvious cyber
doesn't suffer the same social penalties as someone
with 5 points of obvious cyber - and IIRC they suffer
less penalties than people with less cyber, as long as
it's obvious. You can make your cybered characters
less human if you like, but the official FASA line has
always been that too much cyber doesn't drive you
insane - it KILLS you. How does Humanity and Cyberpunk
2.0.2.0 explain that?

My vote's with Damion. The aural template explanation
is the one that's always made the most sense to me.

====Doc'
(aka Mr. Freaky Big, Super-Dynamic Troll of Tomorrow, aka Doc'booner, aka Doc' Vader)

.sig Sauer

Can you SMELL what THE DOC' is COOKIN'!!!

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Message no. 13
From: shadowrn@*********.com (Hahns Shin)
Subject: Reworking Essence
Date: Fri Apr 27 02:00:02 2001
> sourcebooks. My all time favourite definition is from Awakenings (I
think),
> and does not include references to "neural connections" and all that
garbage
> that should make Bone Lacing cost zero Essence. The description was
> something like the addition of cyberware altered your aura
dramatically from
> your 'metahuman aural template' (ie, what your aura _should_ look
like), and
> the larger the change, the greater the Essence cost. Once you
altered the
> aura too much, it began to wither and die, and the body
sympathetically shut
> down and failed too (as anything that happens to your aura happens
to you
> too). That way "major" implants had a high Essence cost, even if
they were
> inert like Dermal Armour, small like a VCR, or otherwise didn't fit
the
> various descriptions of why Essence was lost with cyber
implantation.

I think that this definition works, but from a different perspective.
Put a Western Doctor, a Chinese Doctor, a Mage, and a Shaman in a room
with a candidate for nano/cybersurgery, and they would spout off at
least 20 different answers for Essence loss. The Western Doctor would
take the scientific Shadowtech/Man and Machine response to Essence
loss... that is "innervation of the central nervous system is
fundamentally changed." The Chinese Doctor would say something
similar, except that he would also mention "the holistic balance is
altered" (same with Native American or Mexican doctors... I've known a
few who combine both the new Western techno/pharm medicine and the old
ways to great effect. Half of medicine is the "magic" of the placebo
effect). A Mage would probably say something about "aural templates
and corruption of the body as a whole", as in the Awakenings
definition, though he might also accept the scientific/medical answer.
A Shaman would say "The balance between what is natural and unnatural
is thrown off". The punchline is that Essence loss exists in the SR
world (it just happens and no one really knows why), and everyone has
a different way of explaining it.

Here is a brief medical justification of bone lacing costing mega
essence: Your bones are highly vascularized and innervated, though not
with the typical sensory and pain receptors like the rest of the body.
10% of your blood circulation is in your bones, and although the
innervation of bones is not understood at all, a weak electric current
will stimulate bone growth. Bones are continually degrading and
renewing itself... later in life, as osteoblasts die due to aging, the
renewal process is hindered, causing osteoporosis or just brittle
bones in general, as well as atrophy. I would imagine that bone lacing
would somehow hinder not only the regeneration of bone, but also the
vasculature and nervous tissue in the bone itself. The hormonal or
nanite therapy to compensate alone would be a significant hit on the
health of the individual. This is compounded with the added weight of
the skeletal structure (your muscles, cerebellum, and motor cortices
have to compensate), the effect on the connective tissue and joints,
and the fact that since your skeletal system is essentially your
entire body (abdomen aside), a bone lacing treatment would be MAJORLY
invasive. I could go on with other reasons, but I think I've beat this
subject to death and you guys have already deleted this message
anyway.

Hahns Shin, MS I
Budding cybersurgeon
Message no. 14
From: shadowrn@*********.com (Achille Autran)
Subject: Reworking Essence
Date: Fri Apr 27 13:25:01 2001
At 12:05 27/04/2001 -0400, Hahns Shin wrote:
>I could go on with other reasons, but I think I've beat this
>subject to death and you guys have already deleted this message
>anyway.

Quite the contrary. In fact I enjoy your "medical" posts very much, and I'm
sure I'm not the only one. We're learning something, and it feels like
Shadowtech on steroids, that's great ! Go on !

Molloy, in a supporter mood.

P.S.: obviously, your posts don't attract much replies, so I felt compelled
to prod you a bit.
Message no. 15
From: shadowrn@*********.com (Ahrain Drigar)
Subject: Reworking Essence
Date: Sat Apr 28 11:20:01 2001
----- Original Message -----
From: Gurth <Gurth@******.nl>
Subject: Re: Reworking Essence


According to Michael Yacht, on Thu, 26 Apr 2001 the word on the street
was...

>And by which reasoning, someone with two artificial legs IRL should be
>almost psychotic in the CP2020 sense... (Where's Stainless Steel Rat when
>you need him? :)


It can be summed up in one word...Therapy.

Every amputee <sp>/prosthetic patient alive that I know of/have heard of has
to go through extensive psychiatric counceling and therapy for the process.
According to CP 2020 counceling/therapy increases Humanity back.

Though as a house rule when I ran CP 2020, unless said piece of ware is
removed the best you could get back is enough to get the ware to the minimum
Humanity loss.

As for why some people are affected and others not...varying stats and
varying Humanity loss (my friend, below, rolled very high humanity loss)

A friend of mine lost his legs in a car reck, he thought he was a monster
(and was acting like one) for almost 6 months when he got his prosthetics.
Counceling is the only thing that helped.

So, yes you have a very valid point, but I know with counceling it can be
overcome.

Ahrain
Message no. 16
From: shadowrn@*********.com (Hahns Shin)
Subject: Reworking Essence
Date: Sat Apr 28 14:05:01 2001
> Quite the contrary. In fact I enjoy your "medical" posts very much,
and I'm
> sure I'm not the only one. We're learning something, and it feels
like
> Shadowtech on steroids, that's great ! Go on !
>
> Molloy, in a supporter mood.
Aww, shucks. *Southern CAS senator mode* Thanks for yer support.

Seriously, one of the reasons I enjoy SR so much is that the world
maintains an air of verisimilitude. The world maintains a semblance of
reality even though you can create characters that manipulate the
forces of nature or that are more machine than man. Shadowtech is my
favorite sourcebook (if you can't tell) because it plays up hard
science and really cool tech.

Hahns Shin, MS I
Budding cybersurgeon
Message no. 17
From: shadowrn@*********.com (shadowrn@*********.com)
Subject: Reworking Essence
Date: Sun Apr 29 00:25:01 2001
On Sat, 28 Apr 2001 11:21:32 -0400 "Ahrain Drigar"
<Ahrain_Drigar@*******.com> writes:
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: Gurth <Gurth@******.nl>
> Subject: Re: Reworking Essence
> >And by which reasoning, someone with two artificial legs IRL should be
> >almost psychotic in the CP2020 sense... (Where's Stainless Steel Rat
when
> >you need him? :)

> It can be summed up in one word...Therapy.
>
> Every amputee <sp>/prosthetic patient alive that I know of/have
> heard of has
> to go through extensive psychiatric counceling and therapy for the
> process.
> According to CP 2020 counceling/therapy increases Humanity back.
<SNIP>

Sorry. In CP, you need to remove the ware before Humanity can be
recovered. (According to the latest printing of the second edition rules)

--
D. Ghost
Profanity is the one language all programmers know best
- Troutman's 6th programming postulate.
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