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Message no. 1
From: Steadfast <laughingman@*******.DE>
Subject: Rigger 2 Costs to high?
Date: Tue, 6 Oct 1998 01:53:14 +0200
Just scanned my Rigger 2 once again.

Why the bloody hell should someone ask his fixer to get him a ECM rating 4
and up or Sensor Rating 6 and up?
If you have to pay them up including Street Index you quickly end up in the
1Mil end of the line and if one have to choose between 1 Mill for a nice
little gadget and a bought High lifestyle I would know what to choose. Well
of course, every Rigger is a speed freak and would die to "jack" into a
vehicle with THAT kind of optics and "feeling" so that should not be an
option for the real real Rigger.
And those Sensor ratings and ECM's are not that military IMO that it should
not be possible to obtain them. But, once again, why?
And, if I am allready in rambling mode, why should a Rigger go out with his
250 K Car/Van/Drone? Even a small scratch (L-Damage) will result in repairs
that measure around 12.5 K and a medium Crash (M-Damage) that is evenly
easy to get will bring you in the 37.5 K area for parts and repairs. And if
your main Vehicle, your pride, the bane of the streets gets a small scratch
or a medium your not only down on your knees crying like a baby, your
swearing that Cop/Punk/Corp will die a terrible death. Of course not with
your beloved "Road Hoag" but with that Ford Americar you buy instead of
repairing your Car/Van/Drone. That is cheaper. Result:
A Top Notch Surveilance Vehicle parking behind glas doors in your
homegarage, sign on it, reading "Do NOT fraggin touch!"
I understand that high rating equipment _should_ be expensive, but even a
sammy has not this problems as his equipment nearly never fails him. I know
about the Damage for Cyberware in the SSC, its not comparable. Or lets say
SOTA (optional rule SR Comp. Page 86) kicks in, bloody three possible
paysites here for Joe Rigger (Vehicles/Rigger Technology; ECM/ECCM;
Electronics).
So, can anybody explain to me why I should play a Rigger and pray before
every evening that I should not be in need to actually USE my gear?
Well of course my explanation would be "It's Darn COOL, it is!" But if
anybody has another idea, please tell me.
Ah and please do not mention the goody ole "grab a drone from the coprs"
(MIJI) argument, that is not that easy as I had learned a few days ago
(although I was GM and realy wanted them to get that drone).

--->Steadfast
to be "human" is not a state of living
I want to achieve.
Message no. 2
From: Christopher King <cking@********.COM>
Subject: Re: Rigger 2 Costs to high?
Date: Tue, 6 Oct 1998 00:45:31 GMT
On Tue, 6 Oct 1998 01:53:14 +0200, you wrote:

<snipped bit about overpriced electronics>

>So, can anybody explain to me why I should play a Rigger and pray before
>every evening that I should not be in need to actually USE my gear?
>Well of course my explanation would be "It's Darn COOL, it is!" But if
>anybody has another idea, please tell me.

In our group, expenses (like damaged vehicles/drones, elemental
materials, et al) come off the top of any money the group makes;
what's left over get's split among the team members. If it didn't then
we'd find ourselves with riggers who won't risk their vehicles,
deckers who're reluctant to put their decks up against the really
harsh IC, and mages who aren't interested in using up their
elementals' services. Everyone needs some kind of guarantee that
they're not going to be left cred-less because they had to put their
resources on the line to get the job done.

my 2cents,

Chris
--
cking@********.com - http://www.searchiv.com/cking/shadows
= It's all fun and games until someone looses an eye,
= then it's all fun and games, but without depth perception.
Message no. 3
From: Iridios <iridios@*********.COM>
Subject: Re: Rigger 2 Costs to high?
Date: Mon, 5 Oct 1998 21:13:00 -0400
Steadfast wrote:

> If you have to pay them up including Street Index you quickly end up in the
> 1Mil end of the line and if one have to choose between 1 Mill for a nice
> little gadget and a bought High lifestyle I would know what to choose.

If you paid 1 Mil for the gadget, said gadget should and would (IMO)
aid you in making another mil for the lifestyle. That being said, a
"bought High lifestyle" would mean a permanent high lifestyle and
well, that's bloody difficult to pull off once the game starts.
During character creation, the street indexes don't apply (at least in
my game they don't), so that gadget would only be 250 k (125k for the
sensor 6).

<snip>
> And, if I am allready in rambling mode, why should a Rigger go out with his
> 250 K Car/Van/Drone? Even a small scratch (L-Damage) will result in repairs
> that measure around 12.5 K

a scratch is Light damage? To me that would be only cosmetic, not
affecting performance. Light damage would be things like damaged
suspensions bent chassis' (plural of chassis?), wheels out of
alignment, etc...

<snip>

Just my .02 nY.

--
Iridios
iridios@*********.com
ICQ UIN:6629224
http://www.geocities.com/Area51/Shadowlands/9489

-------Begin Geek Code Block------
GS d-(++) s+: a- C++ U?@>++ P L E?
W++ N o-- K- w(---) O? M-- V? PS+@
PE Y+ !PGP>++ t++@ 5+ X++@ R++@ tv
b+ DI++ !D G e+@>++++ h--- r+++ y+++
-------End Geek Code Block--------
Message no. 4
From: Steadfast <laughingman@*******.DE>
Subject: Re: Rigger 2 Costs to high?
Date: Tue, 6 Oct 1998 03:34:50 +0200
And so it came to happen that Iridios wrote:
----------
> Steadfast wrote:
>
> > If you have to pay them up including Street Index you quickly end up in
the
> > 1Mil end of the line and if one have to choose between 1 Mill for a
nice
> > little gadget and a bought High lifestyle I would know what to choose.
>
> If you paid 1 Mil for the gadget, said gadget should and would (IMO)
> aid you in making another mil for the lifestyle. That being said, a
> "bought High lifestyle" would mean a permanent high lifestyle and
> well, that's bloody difficult to pull off once the game starts.
> During character creation, the street indexes don't apply (at least in
> my game they don't), so that gadget would only be 250 k (125k for the
> sensor 6).

That was my point. During Chargen, fine, you'l get this ECM 4 quite easily
if you spend all your money for the main vehicle and your RC-Deck and get
no or say just "Stock" drones for the daily Rigger life. BTW the Sensor 6
is at availibility 10 so I'd say happily "No Sensor 6 friend" if one of my
players in my Games tried that one on me during Chargen. Of course Sensor 6
is quite heavy stuff but not that far away from the daily dreams of Joe
Rigger.
But during the Gametime, why should one get this load of money to spend
into a accesory that, of course does help him quite big in outrunning
Corpgoons and in snooping OPS if the Sensor (to stay by that example)
System was build into a flying or crawling Drone. But that one is quite
fragile, a Zapper rocket and "BOOM" 1 Mil. down the chute. And that for
just 2.5 k or 6.25 k with Streetindex. And bet the Corps do have that kind
of Armament if you go just a bit outside the Sprawl.
I do not see how it is cost effective. Allthought I would die for to get
even one of my greasy fingers on one of those goodies. ;o)

> <snip>
> > And, if I am allready in rambling mode, why should a Rigger go out with
his
> > 250 K Car/Van/Drone? Even a small scratch (L-Damage) will result in
repairs
> > that measure around 12.5 K
>
> a scratch is Light damage? To me that would be only cosmetic, not
> affecting performance. Light damage would be things like damaged
> suspensions bent chassis' (plural of chassis?), wheels out of
> alignment, etc...

Sorry, just meant to be a small joke, of course I did not thought of a
L-Damage as a "scratch". The Impact Damage Table in SR3rd. says that an
impact from 20 to a complete stop in null time gives your beloved Vehicle a
L-Damage. As I had seen some pictures of cars that slammed with that "low"
kind of speed into a wall or a tree I'd definetly say that it is not only a
scratch.

> Just my .02 nY.

Taken and spend for Rigger-Charity-R-us
;o)

--->Steadfast
to be "human" is not a state of living
I want to achieve.
Message no. 5
From: Joshua Mumme <grimlakin@**********.COM>
Subject: Re: Rigger 2 Costs to high?
Date: Mon, 5 Oct 1998 23:19:02 -0500
-----Original Message-----
From: Steadfast <laughingman@*******.DE>
To: SHADOWRN@********.ITRIBE.NET <SHADOWRN@********.ITRIBE.NET>
Date: Monday, October 05, 1998 8:39 PM
Subject: Re: Rigger 2 Costs to high?

<SNIP>


>Sorry, just meant to be a small joke, of course I did not thought of a
>L-Damage as a "scratch". The Impact Damage Table in SR3rd. says that an
>impact from 20 to a complete stop in null time gives your beloved Vehicle a
>L-Damage. As I had seen some pictures of cars that slammed with that "low"
>kind of speed into a wall or a tree I'd definetly say that it is not only a
>scratch.
>
>> Just my .02 nY.
>
>Taken and spend for Rigger-Charity-R-us
>;o)
>
>--->Steadfast
> to be "human" is not a state of living
> I want to achieve.

Well actually wouldn't you first roll the body of the vehicle in question
against a given diff? So that way the light damage might get staged down
to nada.
Message no. 6
From: Mike Bobroff <Airwasp@***.COM>
Subject: Re: Rigger 2 Costs to high?
Date: Tue, 6 Oct 1998 04:07:56 EDT
In a message dated 10/5/98 6:56:26 PM US Eastern Standard Time,
laughingman@*******.DE writes:

> So, can anybody explain to me why I should play a Rigger and pray before
> every evening that I should not be in need to actually USE my gear?
> Well of course my explanation would be "It's Darn COOL, it is!" But if
> anybody has another idea, please tell me.
> Ah and please do not mention the goody ole "grab a drone from the coprs"
> (MIJI) argument, that is not that easy as I had learned a few days ago
> (although I was GM and realy wanted them to get that drone).

So, why should you bother playing a rigger. Try the following, fix the stuff
on the inside, leave the exterior of the vehicle alone.

As for not wanting to play a rigger, consider this, if you are not willing to
spend the cred then you will -NEVER- be able to get into the big leagues of
the Prime Riggers. Damage is an accepted part of life, and the reason for not
wanting to spend so much means that you are not willing to lose something that
cost a lot.

A case in point. A player in the game got for his pc a Ranger Arms Sniper
Rifle, and he brought with him when he went to help the group out. The player
ended up by the small country inside Seattle (the place where everything is
legal and has Mafia ties out the yanger). They told him to leave the gun or
they would shoot him down where he stood (he was carrying it like it was an
Assault Rifle at the hip, go figure). He refused, they fired a volley of
warning fire around him, but nothing came close. They asked him again, he
refused. As they were getting ready to fire at him, he lobbed a Offensive
grenade into the crowd of Mafia hoods. He killed some and injured many, he
also injured women and children who were nothing more than innocent bystanders
taking cover inside the bar.

So, unless you are willing to be able to walk away from something that costs a
lot of cred, or are willing to accept the loss of something that cost a lot,
don't play a rigger. But I will tell you this much, we here in Lafayette have
never had soo much fun playing riggers ever. Up until now in the games the
riggers where something no one was afraid of very much nor desired to play
either. Now, everyone in the group is capable of rigging in some capacity or
another, sure we have some really expensive toys.

A VTOL Bike ............ 24 million nuyen as the bike is a combination racing
bike and UAV VT Small ....


Roller Skates ............ 35,000 nuyen or so ... basically small (Body 1)
wheeled drones which can carry someone and can go 40 or so (my pcs can go 70
or so) ...


And this is just a sampling.


If you don't want to play a rigger, don't. If you want to play a rigger then
you have to accept this fact, being a rigger means spending cred on vehicles
for their repair and purchasing. And if you lose the vehicle, -LIFE- goes on
anyway, as you can always rebuild a vehicle, you can't bring a pc back to
life.

-Herc
------ The Best Mechanic you can ever have.
Message no. 7
From: Steadfast <laughingman@*******.DE>
Subject: Re: Rigger 2 Costs to high?
Date: Tue, 6 Oct 1998 10:51:33 +0200
And so it came to happen that Jushua Mumme wrote:

----------
> >Sorry, just meant to be a small joke, of course I did not thought of a
> >L-Damage as a "scratch". The Impact Damage Table in SR3rd. says that an
> >impact from 20 to a complete stop in null time gives your beloved
Vehicle a
> >L-Damage. As I had seen some pictures of cars that slammed with that
"low"
> >kind of speed into a wall or a tree I'd definetly say that it is not
only a
> >scratch.

<snip>

> Well actually wouldn't you first roll the body of the vehicle in question
> against a given diff? So that way the light damage might get staged
down
> to nada.

Yes you would roll the Vehicles bodyatribute plus any leftover
Controlpooldice you want to allocate against a TN (in the above example,
crashing with a speed of 20 into a bystanding wall) of 2. Having a Body of
four that _should_ not be the problem to get 2 sucecesses to stage the
Damage down do null. But no armor protects and the usual
half-the-damage-because-it-is-a-vehicle stuff does not apply if you get a
crash as impact Damage denies that (SR3rd. Page 147, 1st. Column, upper
part).
But having a bad day and used every controlpooldice up during the ongoing
Combatturn you have a L-Damage in your little "Road Hoag".
I guess that is why the folks at FASA did make the little buggers a bit
more resistand than the average human. Vehicles just cost to much to get
damaged.
;o)

--->Steadfast
to be "human" is not a state of living
I want to achieve.
Message no. 8
From: K in the Shadows <Ereskanti@***.COM>
Subject: Re: Rigger 2 Costs to high?
Date: Tue, 6 Oct 1998 19:36:18 EDT
In a message dated 10/6/1998 3:09:15 AM US Eastern Standard Time,
Airwasp@***.COM writes:

> A VTOL Bike ............ 24 million nuyen as the bike is a combination
> racing
> bike and UAV VT Small ....
>
>
> Roller Skates ............ 35,000 nuyen or so ... basically small (Body 1)
> wheeled drones which can carry someone and can go 40 or so (my pcs can go
70
> or so) ...
>
>
> And this is just a sampling.
>
How's this? A lonely little rubber ball comes bouncing into your yard. The
kid on the other side of the fence walks up and asks for it back. You say
sure, reach down and hand/toss it to him. Seems safe enough?

Next day same kid walks up to the fence, and asks for his ball back. You
being the guard say sure, but tell him to not play around here any more.

Next day, the guard comes along and finds a ball on the ground, but no kid
anywhere, so he sort of just pockets it in the trash can at the shack. Later,
while no one is around, the ball starts to vibrate and girate, then works
itself up to bouncing, and procedes to bounce/roll around all by itself and
wanders off now that it is inside the compound/site that someone needed to
break into.

We'ver come up with a thought utilizing a "Gyronautic Engine", something can
move rotary shaped objects using internal gyroscopes (two). Take into account
a sensors package level 1, and have some fun.

Padre, my character, usually has three or four of these, and uses them to send
into places where the group is really uncertain as to what lies around the
corner or down the stairs.

All in all, it is funny as hell, and the group loves 'em. Hell, drones now
are getting smaller for our group (Reaver's cane just *might* be the most
wicked toy invented to date).

-K

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