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Message no. 1
From: wilson.reis@*****.com (Wilson Reis)
Subject: Rigger 2 + SR3 Question.
Date: Sat, 12 Jun 2004 23:57:11 -0300
One of my players has a Ford Canada Bison and added more Armor to it,
to a total of 9. The rules seems to allow it and actually at a quite
reasonable price.

The Vehicle Damage rules say that i should first halve the power and
decrease one damage level, then apply the hardened armor. Am i wrong
or my PC´s truck can wash away assault cannon damage ?

18D becomes 9S (vehicle damage rules)
9S becomes nothing (Armor 9)

Is that it ?

Thanks in advance
Will
Message no. 2
From: gurth@******.nl (Gurth)
Subject: Rigger 2 + SR3 Question.
Date: Sun, 13 Jun 2004 10:46:52 +0200
According to Wilson Reis, on Sunday 13 June 2004 04:57 the word on the
street was...

> The Vehicle Damage rules say that i should first halve the power and
> decrease one damage level, then apply the hardened armor. Am i wrong
> or my PC´s truck can wash away assault cannon damage ?

You didn't misunderstand it. With armor 9, you need a weapon with at least
Power 20 to harm the vehicle. IMHO if you're adding armor to a car, you
need to go for at least 3 or 4 points (as that stops SMG and nearly all
rifle rounds), and there isn't a real need to go over 5 because that'll
keep out even HMGs -- about the only things you need to worry about with
armor 5 are sniper rifles, assault cannons, and rocket/missile launchers.
With armor 9, even most of those are no problem.

--
Gurth@******.nl - Stone Age: http://www.xs4all.nl/~gurth/index.html
... in real life, which was styled after the film.
-> Probably NAGEE Editor * ShadowRN GridSec * Triangle Virtuoso <-
-> The Plastic Warriors Page: http://plastic.dumpshock.com <-

GC3.12: GAT/! d- s:- !a>? C++(---) UL+ P(+) L++ E W--(++) N o? K w(--)
O V? PS+ PE@ Y PGP- t- 5++ X(+) R+++$ tv+(++) b++@ DI- D+ G+ e h! !r y?
Incubated into the First Church of the Sqooshy Ball, 21-05-1998
Message no. 3
From: wilson.reis@*****.com (Wilson Reis)
Subject: Rigger 2 + SR3 Question.
Date: Sun, 13 Jun 2004 08:18:38 -0300
Actually he made it 9 because of Heavy Pistols...
As he was reading only the Rigger 2, he wasn´t aware that the power
would get split in half before arnor was calculated. That sounds a bit
too strong, perhaps i will subtract the Armor first and then divide by
2. That keeps him still immune to weapons with power 9, which means
most of what can be encountered by non-prepared opposition. APDS, AV
rockets or assault cannon´s power still pose a threat.
Thanks for the feedback, i will have a talk with my players about that
and we shall decide what´s better for the campaign. I am sure they
don´t want invincible opposition as well :-)

Anyone with house rules to share ?

Will

On Sun, 13 Jun 2004 10:46:52 +0200, Gurth <gurth@******.nl> wrote:
>

> You didn't misunderstand it. With armor 9, you need a weapon with at least
> Power 20 to harm the vehicle.
Message no. 4
From: milliken@*********.on.net (Damion Milliken)
Subject: Rigger 2 + SR3 Question.
Date: Sun, 13 Jun 2004 21:36:04 +1000
Will writes:

> Anyone with house rules to share

Excerpted from Damion's House Rules:

6 VEHICLES
These vehicle rules modify, replace, and add onto those already presented in SR3 (p 130)
and R3. Incubus wrote them, with additional input from me. I am thankful to Incubus for
his logical mind and the time he has spent to draft and create these rules. We both feel
that these rules are significantly more sensible, and in many cases simpler, than the
SR3/R3 rules as they are written.
6.1 ATTRIBUTES
The Body (§6.1.5) and Armour (§6.1.7) rules often serve to cancel
each other out in practice. However, they also serve to remove a couple of otherwise very
silly circumstances that can occur under the existing SR rules.
6.1.1 Vehicle Size
Any vehicle with a CF and Load in the first third (i.e. £ 33%) of the range
from it's chassis default to it's chassis maximum is considered "normal". A
vehicle with either CF or Load in the second third (i.e. > 33%, £ 66%) is
"large". A vehicle above 2/3 in either (i.e. > 66%) is considered "very
large". Note that many listed vehicles have used some of their available CF and/or
Load for modifications, so merely checking the listed CF and Load is not sufficient to
determine whether a vehicle is "normal", "large", or "very
large". It is necessary to reverse engineer the vehicle and determine how much of the
maximum chassis CF and Load were used.
<snip>
6.1.5 Body
I've always found it somewhat preposterous that the average sedan in SR, if shot by an
even halfway competent individual with a heavy pistol, will disintegrate after two or
three shots (p 149 SR3). Even with the half Power and reduced Damage Level, a vehicle is
looking at 2D from a firer with 4 successes. With only 3 Body dice, the vehicle will
sustain Serious damage from a single heavy pistol shot.
Under these rules, the SR3/R3 vehicle Body represents a vehicle's "Build Body".
This is the value to be used where the R3 design rules mention Body, and in other places
where the vehicle's Body is required (such as for determining the vehicle's weight). The
exception to this is vehicle damage resistance. Vehicles resist damage with their
"Damage Body", which is based on, but not equal to, their "Build
Body". "Normal" vehicles have a "Damage Body" equal to their
"Build Body" x 3 -1. "Large" vehicles have a "Damage Body"
equal to their "Build Body" x 3. "Very Large" vehicles have a
"Damage Body" equal to their "Build Body" x 3 +1.
Note that the descriptions of some vehicles may alter this - a vehicle described as
particularly tough (without actually mounting armour) may have it's "size"
upgraded, while vehicles described as fragile may have their "size" downgraded.
See §6.1.1 for an explanation of how a vehicle is determined to be
"normal", "large", or "very large".
<snip>
6.1.7 Armour
I've also always found it somewhat preposterous that a small breadbox sized drone, if it
was given 5 points of armour, was absolutely totally immune to any attack short of an
assault cannon or high powered sniper round (p 149 SR3). I treat vehicle armour as
regular, not hardened. In other words, I ignore the rule (p 149 SR3) that says "If a
weapon's reduced Power (unaugmented by burst or full-auto fire rates) does not exceed the
armour's rating, the weapons fire does no damage to the vehicle." The TN will be
reduced to 2, as in every other circumstance in SR.

For a full reference, check out:
http://www.users.on.net/~milliken/SR/

--
Damion Milliken E-Mail: DamionMilliken@*****.com.au
---------------+----------------------------------+-----------------------
ICQ: 177734389 | MSN: DamionMilliken@*****.com.au | AIM/Y!: DamionMilliken
---------------+----------------------------------+-----------------------
Message no. 5
From: graht1@*******.com (David Buehrer)
Subject: Rigger 2 + SR3 Question.
Date: Sun, 13 Jun 2004 08:13:01 -0600
From: Wilson Reis <wilson.reis@*****.com
>
>On Sun, 13 Jun 2004 10:46:52 +0200, Gurth <gurth@******.nl> wrote:
>
> > You didn't misunderstand it. With armor 9, you need a weapon with at
>least
> > Power 20 to harm the vehicle.
>
>Actually he made it 9 because of Heavy Pistols...
>As he was reading only the Rigger 2, he wasnīt aware that the power
>would get split in half before arnor was calculated. That sounds a bit
>too strong, perhaps i will subtract the Armor first and then divide by
>2. That keeps him still immune to weapons with power 9, which means
>most of what can be encountered by non-prepared opposition. APDS, AV
>rockets or assault cannonīs power still pose a threat.
>Thanks for the feedback, i will have a talk with my players about that
>and we shall decide whatīs better for the campaign. I am sure they
>donīt want invincible opposition as well :-)
>
>Anyone with house rules to share ?

First, gotta take care of Admin responsibilities :) Wil, please place your
replies below/after quoted text when replying to ShadowRN posts. Thank you
:)

I don't have a house rule per se, but I do have some creative ideas for
dealing with a heavily armored PC owned vehicle.

The tires do not have an armor of 9, and are vulnerable. Even today they
are the primary target of law enforcement (by laying out spikes on the road
ahead of vehicles).

The vehicle can be blocked, run off the road. This is especially easy in a
city where the environment is already confining. There's even a good chance
the characters could get stuck in a traffic jam on any given day.

While the vehicle can shrug off most attacks, it can still get knocked over
by them.

Vehicles are easy to track. Heavily armored vehicles that stand out are
even easier to track. How many times have you seen news footage of a police
chase being filmed from the air. Once one of those begins the PCs will be
chased by law enforcement and news helicopters. They will not get away.

And finally, point out to the players that any attack that and NPC has to
use to just damage their vehicle will probably kill anyone inside.

For all of the reasons above my characters always prefered motorbikes with
nothing more than a souped up engine and handling, and wore an armored
jacket (and the helmet doubled as a kevlar helmet of course ;). The bikes
were fast, maneuverable, could weave through traffic and road blocks, could
go off road, didn't get shot at by anti-tank weapons, easy to hide (could
even park it in the PC's apartment), and were disposable and easy to replace
if my character had to ditch them.

-Graht
Assistant ShadowRN Admin

_________________________________________________________________
Looking to buy a house? Get informed with the Home Buying Guide from MSN
House & Home. http://coldwellbanker.msn.com/
Message no. 6
From: wilson.reis@*****.com (Wilson Reis)
Subject: Rigger 2 + SR3 Question.
Date: Sun, 13 Jun 2004 12:03:27 -0300
On Sun, 13 Jun 2004 08:13:01 -0600, David Buehrer <graht1@*******.com> wrote:
>
> First, gotta take care of Admin responsibilities :) Wil, please place your
> replies below/after quoted text when replying to ShadowRN posts. Thank you
> :)

oops...
everytime i rejoin the list i seem to forget that :-/

>
> I don't have a house rule per se, but I do have some creative ideas for
> dealing with a heavily armored PC owned vehicle.
>
(snip)

Most of my PCs are fairly reasonable and some of them fit more on the
biker profile as well. The point is that after crossing the atlantic
in a ship (see previous thread) they must all travel together and, in
a highway, a medium truck calls less attention than 6 bikes. (Not to
mention that the group has 2 Trolls and a Wakyambi elf, big fellas
they are...)

The PCs know me and i am sure that they are all aware that whatever
armor or firepower they have it´s not enough against determined
opposition.

My concern was more about the game´s mechanic and, for that matter, i
shall take a better look in Damion´s pdf :-)

Thanks for the advice, btw
(I will remember turning vehicles upside down when the opportunity appears.)

Regards
Will
Message no. 7
From: GuayII@***.com (GuayII@***.com)
Subject: Rigger 2 + SR3 Question.
Date: Sun, 13 Jun 2004 18:06:57 -0400
In a message dated 6/13/2004 10:13:01 AM Eastern Daylight Time, graht1@*******.com writes:

> The vehicle can be blocked, run off the road. This is especially easy in a
> city where the environment is already confining. There's even a good chance
> the characters could get stuck in a traffic jam on any
> given day.

And according to either the Lone Star or Rigger 3 book, that's exactly what Traffic
Control will do. Try to slow up the offenders while giving green lights to the pursuing
LS.

--Cash
Message no. 8
From: gurth@******.nl (Gurth)
Subject: Rigger 2 + SR3 Question.
Date: Mon, 14 Jun 2004 10:16:21 +0200
According to Wilson Reis, on Sunday 13 June 2004 13:18 the word on the
street was...

> Actually he made it 9 because of Heavy Pistols...
> As he was reading only the Rigger 2, he wasn´t aware that the power
> would get split in half before arnor was calculated. That sounds a bit
> too strong, perhaps i will subtract the Armor first and then divide by
> 2. That keeps him still immune to weapons with power 9, which means
> most of what can be encountered by non-prepared opposition. APDS, AV
> rockets or assault cannon´s power still pose a threat.

AV rounds are a threat anyway, as they don't halve their Power Level
against vehicles. IMHO there is no easy solution -- under the normal
rules, you can completely wreck most unarmored vehicles by putting ten
rounds into them with an assault rifle, but with 4 points of armor, those
same rounds won't do anything at all.

--
Gurth@******.nl - Stone Age: http://www.xs4all.nl/~gurth/index.html
... in real life, which was styled after the film.
-> Probably NAGEE Editor * ShadowRN GridSec * Triangle Virtuoso <-
-> The Plastic Warriors Page: http://plastic.dumpshock.com <-

GC3.12: GAT/! d- s:- !a>? C++(---) UL+ P(+) L++ E W--(++) N o? K w(--)
O V? PS+ PE@ Y PGP- t- 5++ X(+) R+++$ tv+(++) b++@ DI- D+ G+ e h! !r y?
Incubated into the First Church of the Sqooshy Ball, 21-05-1998
Message no. 9
From: gurth@******.nl (Gurth)
Subject: Rigger 2 + SR3 Question.
Date: Mon, 14 Jun 2004 10:24:20 +0200
According to David Buehrer, on Sunday 13 June 2004 16:13 the word on the
street was...

> Vehicles are easy to track. Heavily armored vehicles that stand out are
> even easier to track. How many times have you seen news footage of a
> police chase being filmed from the air. Once one of those begins the
> PCs will be chased by law enforcement and news helicopters. They will
> not get away.

That's the main lesson the people fleeing from the police on those shows
usually haven't learned: once there's a helicopter on you, you might as
well give up. (For that matter, many of them seem to be trying to run away
from the police in their own cars -- why? The cops will have your license
plate number, so even if you can get away, they'll just show up at your
house...)

> And finally, point out to the players that any attack that and NPC has
> to use to just damage their vehicle will probably kill anyone inside.

Here's an idea to discourage armor on vehicles: add its rating to the Power
of any damage the characters take from a crash. There's actually a
justification you can use for this: before crumple zones, three-point seat
belts and airbags were invented, the general thought was that a car should
be as rigid as possible so as to avoid damage in a collision.
Unfortunately this meant that while the car might survive a collision
fairly well, the passengers inside tended to get thrown around and get
killed by slamming against sturdy stuff like the dashboard (my father has
a 1950 Oldmobile -- the dashboard feels like cast iron, and there are no
seat belts...). An SR vehicle with strong armor is probably in much the
same situation, especially if the passengers aren't wearing seat belts --
and how can you shoot back at the bad guys through an open window or
sunroof if your seat belt is on...? *EGMG*

--
Gurth@******.nl - Stone Age: http://www.xs4all.nl/~gurth/index.html
... in real life, which was styled after the film.
-> Probably NAGEE Editor * ShadowRN GridSec * Triangle Virtuoso <-
-> The Plastic Warriors Page: http://plastic.dumpshock.com <-

GC3.12: GAT/! d- s:- !a>? C++(---) UL+ P(+) L++ E W--(++) N o? K w(--)
O V? PS+ PE@ Y PGP- t- 5++ X(+) R+++$ tv+(++) b++@ DI- D+ G+ e h! !r y?
Incubated into the First Church of the Sqooshy Ball, 21-05-1998
Message no. 10
From: wilson.reis@*****.com (Wilson Reis)
Subject: Rigger 2 + SR3 Question.
Date: Mon, 14 Jun 2004 10:12:25 -0300
On Mon, 14 Jun 2004 10:24:20 +0200, Gurth <gurth@******.nl> wrote:
>
> Here's an idea to discourage armor on vehicles: add its rating to the Power
> of any damage the characters take from a crash. (snip)

Now that´s just mean :-) ( and somehow i kinda agree with it !! )

BTW, the game session was yesterday and as I addressed the question to
the rigger in the group, he said: "That´s quite above the power level
we wanted for the campaign, right?" and then we decide to apply the
armor first, then divide the rest by 2. (Which is actually the same as
halving the armor effects, but keeping the Load/CF/Handling costs).
It´s good to have reasonable players... That kind of thing would never
happen when i was 12 and GMed D&D to my friends :-)

Our new question is, what happens if a troll physad makes a 12S
Killing Hands strike against the vehicle ? (But that´s not really
important for us right now, as i don´t plan to pull that kind of stunt
so soon)

While roleplaying a discussion between the PCs, the group´s physad
threatened smashing some drones belonging to the rigger player. <g>

Will
Message no. 11
From: graht1@*******.com (David Buehrer)
Subject: Rigger 2 + SR3 Question.
Date: Mon, 14 Jun 2004 08:07:58 -0600
>From: GuayII@***.com
>
>In a message dated 6/13/2004 10:13:01 AM Eastern Daylight Time,
>graht1@*******.com writes:
>
> > The vehicle can be blocked, run off the road. This is especially easy
>in a
> > city where the environment is already confining. There's even a good
>chance
> > the characters could get stuck in a traffic jam on any
> > given day.
>
>And according to either the Lone Star or Rigger 3 book, that's exactly what
>Traffic Control will do. Try to slow up the offenders while giving green
>lights to the pursuing LS.

I just saw a movie where the "PCs" did that. I can't remember the name, but
it's the one with the Cooper Minis. I highly recommend as a good
"Shadowrun" type movie.

-Graht

_________________________________________________________________
Looking to buy a house? Get informed with the Home Buying Guide from MSN
House & Home. http://coldwellbanker.msn.com/
Message no. 12
From: SteveG@***********.co.za (Steve Garrard)
Subject: Rigger 2 + SR3 Question.
Date: Mon, 14 Jun 2004 16:43:56 +0200
David Buehrer wrote:
> >From: GuayII@***.com
> >
> >In a message dated 6/13/2004 10:13:01 AM Eastern Daylight Time,
> >graht1@*******.com writes:
> >
> > > The vehicle can be blocked, run off the road. This is especially
> > > easy
> >in a
> > > city where the environment is already confining. There's even a
> > > good
> >chance
> > > the characters could get stuck in a traffic jam on any given day.
> >
> >And according to either the Lone Star or Rigger 3 book,
> that's exactly
> >what Traffic Control will do. Try to slow up the offenders
> while giving
> >green lights to the pursuing LS.
>
> I just saw a movie where the "PCs" did that. I can't
> remember the name, but it's the one with the Cooper Minis. I
> highly recommend as a good "Shadowrun" type movie.

The remake of The Italian Job.


Slayer

"Beware my wrath, for you are crunchy and taste good with ketchup."
- Unknown Dragon



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