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Message no. 1
From: shadowrn@*********.com (Gurth)
Subject: Rigger 3 engine question
Date: Sun Feb 10 10:55:01 2002
While typing up a Rigger 3 data file for The Shop (some free advice:
don't ever volunteer for a job like this ;) I noticed that some legal
engine/chassis combinations still make it impossible to create a practical
vehicle. The battery-powered engines for "All Other" cars are a good
example: if you try to make a battery-powered tracked APC, its base
Acceleration is -1; this is not a really major problem, because you can
simply add extra Accel and have a workable vehicle anyway. But a
battery-powered heavy caterpillar vehicle will never ever move anywhere
unless it's being towed, because its _maximum_ Acceleration is 0...

Did I miss a rule that the minimum value in these cases is 1 (or even 0),
is it an oversight on the designers' part (Jon? Rich?), or is the idea
that such vehicles fall under the "If a chassis type is not listed under
a particlar power plant, the vehicle may not use that power plant" clause
on page 110?

Oh, and please, no house rules to cover the situation, as this is for a
datafile for public consumption, so it should conform to the rules in the
book unless there's a very good reason not to :)

--
Gurth@******.nl
Message no. 2
From: shadowrn@*********.com (Zebulin Magby)
Subject: Rigger 3 engine question
Date: Sun Feb 10 18:15:01 2002
"Gurth" <gurth@******.nl> wrote:


>
> While typing up a Rigger 3 data file for The Shop (some free advice:
> don't ever volunteer for a job like this ;) I noticed that some legal
>

Oh thank the Gods. I'll stop then. [: I hadn't realised someone else was
already doing this. Quick question: Will you announce to the list when it is
done? I'd love to get it from you asafp.

Thanks!

Z


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Message no. 3
From: shadowrn@*********.com (George S Waksman)
Subject: Rigger 3 engine question
Date: Sun Feb 10 18:55:01 2002
Gurth wrote:

>
>While typing up a Rigger 3 data file for The Shop (some free advice:
>don't ever volunteer for a job like this ;) I noticed that some legal
>engine/chassis combinations still make it impossible to create a practical
>vehicle. The battery-powered engines for "All Other" cars are a good
>example: if you try to make a battery-powered tracked APC, its base
>Acceleration is -1; this is not a really major problem, because you can
>simply add extra Accel and have a workable vehicle anyway. But a
>battery-powered heavy caterpillar vehicle will never ever move anywhere
>unless it's being towed, because its _maximum_ Acceleration is 0...
>
>Did I miss a rule that the minimum value in these cases is 1 (or even 0),
>is it an oversight on the designers' part (Jon? Rich?), or is the idea
>that such vehicles fall under the "If a chassis type is not listed under
>a particlar power plant, the vehicle may not use that power plant" clause
>on page 110?
>
>Oh, and please, no house rules to cover the situation, as this is for a
>datafile for public consumption, so it should conform to the rules in the
>book unless there's a very good reason not to :)
>
>--
>Gurth@******.nl
>
>

Battery powered heavy caterpillar? That's a pretty absurd concept in my opinion; those
things need a heck of a lot of power to drive and batteries can't provide a lot of power
at once.

-George Waksman
Message no. 4
From: shadowrn@*********.com (Gurth)
Subject: Rigger 3 engine question
Date: Mon Feb 11 05:40:06 2002
According to George S Waksman, on Mon, 11 Feb 2002 the word on the street was...

> Battery powered heavy caterpillar? That's a pretty absurd concept in my
> opinion; those things need a heck of a lot of power to drive and
> batteries can't provide a lot of power at once.

But it's not really the point if it's practical or absurd; the problem is that,
BTB, this combination _is_ possible -- but if the formula in Rigger 3 is taken
as printed, it will never have more than 0 Acceleration.

--
Gurth@******.nl - http://www.xs4all.nl/~gurth/index.html
That's the way that I can't win.
-> NAGEE Editor * ShadowRN GridSec * Triangle Virtuoso <-
-> The Plastic Warriors Page: http://plastic.dumpshock.com <-

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Incubated into the First Church of the Sqooshy Ball, 21-05-1998
Message no. 5
From: shadowrn@*********.com (George S Waksman)
Subject: Rigger 3 engine question
Date: Mon Feb 11 11:45:01 2002
Gurth wrote:

>According to George S Waksman, on Mon, 11 Feb 2002 the word on the street> was...
>
>> Battery powered heavy caterpillar? That's a pretty absurd concept in my
>> opinion; those things need a heck of a lot of power to drive and
>> batteries can't provide a lot of power at once.
>
>But it's not really the point if it's practical or absurd; the problem is> that,
>BTB, this combination _is_ possible -- but if the formula in Rigger 3 is >taken
>as printed, it will never have more than 0 Acceleration.
>
>--
>Gurth@******.nl - http://www.xs4all.nl/~gurth/index.html
> That's the way that I can't win.
>-> NAGEE Editor * ShadowRN GridSec * Triangle Virtuoso <-
>-> The Plastic Warriors Page: http://plastic.dumpshock.com <-
>
>GC3.12: GAT/! d- s:- !a>? C++@ UL+ P(+) L++ E W--(++) N o? K w(--) O
>V? PS+ PE@ Y PGP- t@ 5++ X(+) R+++$ tv+(++) b++@ DI- D+ G+ e h! !r y?
>Incubated into the First Church of the Sqooshy Ball, 21-05-1998
>

Ok, so you can make it, however, it can't do anything. Good enough?

-George Waksman
Message no. 6
From: shadowrn@*********.com (Derek Hyde)
Subject: Rigger 3 engine question
Date: Mon Feb 11 12:05:06 2002
> Ok, so you can make it, however, it can't do anything. Good enough?
>
> -George Waksman
no not good enough.....THE GAME IS FANTASY, if they wanna have an
electric bulldozer they can....if they wanna have a gas powered
"feminine body massager" they can....it's fantasy and the
future.....take a pick, play now and reality or play the game, you COULD
take a battery and have it power a dozer too by the way....it's all in
how you gear things....you know...mechanical advantage? Strange concept
and often VERY difficult to figure out but you could do anything with
anything if you put enough work to it.....
Message no. 7
From: shadowrn@*********.com (George S Waksman)
Subject: Rigger 3 engine question
Date: Mon Feb 11 13:25:04 2002
"Derek Hyde" wrote:

>> Ok, so you can make it, however, it can't do anything. Good enough?
>>
>> -George Waksman
>no not good enough.....THE GAME IS FANTASY, if they wanna have an
>electric bulldozer they can....if they wanna have a gas powered
>"feminine body massager" they can....it's fantasy and the
>future.....take a pick, play now and reality or play the game, you COULD
>take a battery and have it power a dozer too by the way....it's all in
>how you gear things....you know...mechanical advantage? Strange concept
>and often VERY difficult to figure out but you could do anything with
>anything if you put enough work to it.....
>
>

I disagree wholeheartedly, the game is not fantasy, it is science fiction with some
fantastic elements. Magic is fantasy (often with a scientific spin) but the rest is all
science fiction which means that it adheres to certain principles, namely possibility,
plausibility and what advances might happen within the next 60 years.

And in response to your statement about gearing it differently, you are wrong. Gearing can
change the force exerted but it cannot change the power output. With gears you can move
heavy things slowly but if it is too heavy there will not be enough power and the motor
will stall. Mechanical advantage can only do so much.

-George Waksman
Message no. 8
From: shadowrn@*********.com (Gurth)
Subject: Rigger 3 engine question
Date: Mon Feb 11 14:10:29 2002
According to George S Waksman, on Mon, 11 Feb 2002 the word on the street was...

> Ok, so you can make it, however, it can't do anything. Good enough?

Not really, as that's the conclusion I'd also already reached :) The reason I
was asking about this in the first place is because I figured it might have
been an oversight on FASA's part or something -- that the minimum value should
be 1, for example. In that case, it helps to include that sort of thing in the
data file.

--
Gurth@******.nl - http://www.xs4all.nl/~gurth/index.html
That's the way that I can't win.
-> NAGEE Editor * ShadowRN GridSec * Triangle Virtuoso <-
-> The Plastic Warriors Page: http://plastic.dumpshock.com <-

GC3.12: GAT/! d- s:- !a>? C++@ UL+ P(+) L++ E W--(++) N o? K w(--) O
V? PS+ PE@ Y PGP- t@ 5++ X(+) R+++$ tv+(++) b++@ DI- D+ G+ e h! !r y?
Incubated into the First Church of the Sqooshy Ball, 21-05-1998
Message no. 9
From: shadowrn@*********.com (George S Waksman)
Subject: Rigger 3 engine question
Date: Mon Feb 11 15:15:01 2002
Gurth wrote:

>According to George S Waksman, on Mon, 11 Feb 2002 the word on the street> was...
>
>> Ok, so you can make it, however, it can't do anything. Good enough?
>
>Not really, as that's the conclusion I'd also already reached :) The reason I
>was asking about this in the first place is because I figured it might have
>been an oversight on FASA's part or something -- that the minimum value should
>be 1, for example. In that case, it helps to include that sort of thing in the
>data file.
>

In that case yes, but my original point, which has been overlooked in your reply is that I
felt a bettery powered caterpiller was an unreasonable vehicle and that the power plant
should not be allowed on the caterpiller, that or you might be able to bring it above 0
with heavy modification (superconductive coils maybe?) but I can't say for sure.

-George Waksman
Message no. 10
From: shadowrn@*********.com (Harvester)
Subject: Rigger 3 engine question
Date: Tue Feb 12 13:15:02 2002
> While typing up a Rigger 3 data file for The Shop (some free advice:
> don't ever volunteer for a job like this ;)
> --
> Gurth@******.nl

You have no idea how much satisfaction it gives me to see someone else
suffering with the data file :) That Rigger 2 one was partly my contribution
to the wonderful world of SR utilities.

Have fun Gurth

Harvester
Message no. 11
From: shadowrn@*********.com (Gurth)
Subject: Rigger 3 engine question
Date: Tue Feb 12 14:15:54 2002
According to Harvester, on Tue, 12 Feb 2002 the word on the street was...

> You have no idea how much satisfaction it gives me to see someone else
> suffering with the data file :) That Rigger 2 one was partly my
> contribution to the wonderful world of SR utilities.
>
> Have fun Gurth

I doubt I will... :) But at least I removed the tedious process of typing
in all those commas and quotation marks by means of writing a simple data
file editor, which should make things slightly easier...

--
Gurth@******.nl - http://www.xs4all.nl/~gurth/index.html
Dat is de kip voor het ei spannen.
-> NAGEE Editor * ShadowRN GridSec * Triangle Virtuoso <-
-> The Plastic Warriors Page: http://plastic.dumpshock.com <-

GC3.12: GAT/! d- s:- !a>? C++@ UL+ P(+) L++ E W--(++) N o? K w(--) O
V? PS+ PE@ Y PGP- t@ 5++ X(+) R+++$ tv+(++) b++@ DI- D+ G+ e h! !r y?
Incubated into the First Church of the Sqooshy Ball, 21-05-1998
Message no. 12
From: shadowrn@*********.com (shadowrn@*********.com)
Subject: Rigger 3 engine question
Date: Tue Feb 12 18:50:01 2002
Gurth Wrote:
While typing up a Rigger 3 data file for The Shop
<Edited For Content and To fit on Your T.V. Screen>


Ok,
Call me stupid, or what ever you would like, but what is the shop?

and where can I get it?
Message no. 13
From: shadowrn@*********.com (malcolm)
Subject: Rigger 3 engine question
Date: Tue Feb 12 23:20:01 2002
basically imagine a techie from 50 years ago and tell him you can fit the
entire range of encyclopaedia brittanica onto a strange metallic-coloured
disc , he would laugh , now imagine a fusion (or other more advanced power
source ) battery , running a bulldozer would be like running a energizer
bunny(TM) , who would need generators etc , just change the battery kids ,
like derek says its the future you GM it , i only have this to say you have
to GM the future you create , if you want it to be like Bubblegum crisis ,
so be it , but don't bitch when PC's take over your boomer plant in a plot
to take over the world (zort) , think carefully about the consequences , if
bulldozers can be run by battery why haven't they designed electric guns ?
how are aircraft powered ? , what happens when terrorfirst realises an emp
shockwave ? etc

Kanniemeernie korperaal
" I'm ba-ack " after a prolonged absence , g'day y'all


----- Original Message -----
From: Derek Hyde <dhyde@*********.net>
To: <shadowrn@*********.com>
Sent: Monday, February 11, 2002 7:09 PM
Subject: RE: Rigger 3 engine question


> > Ok, so you can make it, however, it can't do anything. Good enough?
> >
> > -George Waksman
> no not good enough.....THE GAME IS FANTASY, if they wanna have an
> electric bulldozer they can....if they wanna have a gas powered
> "feminine body massager" they can....it's fantasy and the
> future.....take a pick, play now and reality or play the game, you COULD
> take a battery and have it power a dozer too by the way....it's all in
> how you gear things....you know...mechanical advantage? Strange concept
> and often VERY difficult to figure out but you could do anything with
> anything if you put enough work to it.....
>
>
Message no. 14
From: shadowrn@*********.com (Gurth)
Subject: Rigger 3 engine question
Date: Wed Feb 13 05:25:21 2002
According to Jeffleegreen@***.com, on Wed, 13 Feb 2002 the word on the street was...

> Call me stupid, or what ever you would like, but what is the shop?

It's a Windows program that lets you design vehicles using Rigger 2 rules; it's not
really Rigger 3-compliant, but the datafile I'm working on should work to design R3
vehicles as well, at least as long as you don't want to use the more obscure rules
that require changes to the program that the datafile can't accomodate. Such as, I
think, designing vehicles with Hull ratings :)

> and where can I get it?

http://ojaste.dhs.org/~ojastej/SR/Shop.html

--
Gurth@******.nl - http://www.xs4all.nl/~gurth/index.html
Dat is de kip voor het ei spannen.
-> NAGEE Editor * ShadowRN GridSec * Triangle Virtuoso <-
-> The Plastic Warriors Page: http://plastic.dumpshock.com <-

GC3.12: GAT/! d- s:- !a>? C++@ UL+ P(+) L++ E W--(++) N o? K w(--) O
V? PS+ PE@ Y PGP- t@ 5++ X(+) R+++$ tv+(++) b++@ DI- D+ G+ e h! !r y?
Incubated into the First Church of the Sqooshy Ball, 21-05-1998
Message no. 15
From: shadowrn@*********.com (Matthew Bond)
Subject: Rigger 3 engine question
Date: Wed Feb 13 11:50:01 2002
> From: "malcolm" <mcuthbertson@***.co.za>
> To: <shadowrn@*********.com>
> Subject: Re: Rigger 3 engine question
> Date: Mon, 11 Feb 2002 08:01:22 +0200
> Reply-To: shadowrn@*********.com
>

<snip>

now imagine a fusion (or other more
> advanced power
> source ) battery , running a bulldozer would be like running
> a energizer
> bunny(TM) , who would need generators etc , just change the
> battery kids

That isn't a battery, its a small fusion reactor.

[Note, the following is based on my dimly recalled high school
education... I may have some facts wrong, but I think the gist of what I
am saying is broadly correct]

If you require putting energy into Object X in order to get more energy
out, then Object X isn't a battery. (Generally batteries work by
converting stored chemical energy into electrical energy. In a
rechargeable battery you can stick in more energy from outside to
reverse the chemical reaction to get back almost all the initial
reagents, but in actual use the battery doesn't require additional input
energy)

The drawback to batteries is that the energy output is limited by the
speed of the chemical reaction, and chemical reactions are (in power
generation terms) relatively slow. So to get a decent power output you
need a lot of batteries, but batteries are relatively heavy and bulky
compared to their output power, giving them a low power to weight ratio.

In most battery powered vehicles the bulk of the weight is usually the
batteries, so a bulldozer weighing several tons would need several
*more* tons of batteries to have sufficient energy to move. But beyond a
certain point the power to weight ratio gets too low for the vehicle to
overcome friction, so it becomes unable to move even if you add more
batteries (as you then have to have a bigger frame to hold them, so the
weight goes up, so you need *more* batteries, but then you need an even
heavier chassis etc etc)

The lighter the chassis, the easier it is to get sufficient battery
power to move a vehicle, so most battery powered vehicle will use
lightweight materials in their construction, eg plastics, composites,
and light metals, using just enough heavy material to hold the
batteries.

Think golf carts, and milk floats... apart from the steel frames used to
actually support the heavy battery packs, these use very light weight
materials in their construction.

Matt

<snip>

> Kanniemeernie korperaal
> " I'm ba-ack " after a prolonged absence , g'day y'all
Message no. 16
From: shadowrn@*********.com (Ice Heart)
Subject: Rigger 3 engine question
Date: Wed Feb 13 16:00:06 2002
><snip>
>
> now imagine a fusion (or other more
> > advanced power
> > source ) battery , running a bulldozer would be like running
> > a energizer
> > bunny(TM) , who would need generators etc , just change the
> > battery kids
>
>That isn't a battery, its a small fusion reactor.
>
>[Note, the following is based on my dimly recalled high school
>education... I may have some facts wrong, but I think the gist of what I
>am saying is broadly correct]
>
>If you require putting energy into Object X in order to get more energy
>out, then Object X isn't a battery. (Generally batteries work by
>converting stored chemical energy into electrical energy. In a
>rechargeable battery you can stick in more energy from outside to
>reverse the chemical reaction to get back almost all the initial
>reagents, but in actual use the battery doesn't require additional input
>energy)
>
>The drawback to batteries is that the energy output is limited by the
>speed of the chemical reaction, and chemical reactions are (in power
>generation terms) relatively slow. <snip>

This is an imaginary 2060 where a medkit can stabilize a guy missing half
his brain, and surgery can replace the lost tissue. It seems plausible that
some corp could have leaned to store electricity in more efficient mediums.
Nanotech opens all kinds of interesting possibilites for stored energy
technology.


>In most battery powered vehicles the bulk of the weight is usually the
>batteries, so a bulldozer weighing several tons would need several
>*more* tons of batteries to have sufficient energy to move. <snip>

A cyberdeck the size of a Casio 24-key sampler, with the processing power of
a present day mainframe, and sat uplink with T1 bandwidth capabilities can
all be powered by a battery for some time (half hour, hour...I don't
remember off hand). A battery that fits in the deck, mind you. The
implication is that stored energy tech is just slightly improved in the 2060
of SR. Not to mention the cooling tech. A multi-terabyte processor in a
laptop could double as a fast food grill under current tech.

Bottom line:
Let's not get too caught up in the "science" part of SR fiction.
Technically speaking, SR is not sci-fi. It is cyberpunk. And like any
game, INTERNAL consistancy is the most important issue. Until SR can manage
that, I think perfect compliance with external mechanics is a tall order.
When participating in an RPG, "realism" is almost always the death of
things. For realism, they make strategy games. My dad's favorite was a a
recap of some WW2 naval battle. The game required slide rules, protractors,
rules pulled dirtectly from Navy navigation guides, and three different
tactical maps. One of the maps occupied an entire kitchen floor. A single
actual engagement could take 12 hours. The whole game took hundreds of
hours in some scenarios. You played numbers, not roles. Shadowrun is about
playing roles in a cyberpunk setting. If you want a battery powered road
grader, go for it. I'd set a top speed of maybe 2 kilometers per hour, with
an acceleration of 1, and a battery life of about 10 to 20 hours. The Tir
and some NAN countries would use them over petrochem burners any day, just
to seem more "green". New batteries would be brought in with solar powered
golf carts. Let your rigger try to stage a getaway in that. And that is
the point...let her try, it could be fun. :)

Korishinzo


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Message no. 17
From: shadowrn@*********.com (George S Waksman)
Subject: Rigger 3 engine question
Date: Wed Feb 13 19:20:01 2002
"Ice Heart" wrote:

>A cyberdeck the size of a Casio 24-key sampler, with the processing power of
>a present day mainframe, and sat uplink with T1 bandwidth capabilities can
>all be powered by a battery for some time (half hour, hour...I don't
>remember off hand). A battery that fits in the deck, mind you. The
>implication is that stored energy tech is just slightly improved in the 2060
>of SR. Not to mention the cooling tech. A multi-terabyte processor in a
>laptop could double as a fast food grill under current tech.

This analogy doesn't work at all. A cyberdeck doesn't have better batteries, it has better
electronics. Let me take your analogy a step farther, my personal computer is orders of
magnitude better than ENIAC but I can power it off of an APC and a car battery whereas
ENIAC needed gigantic power systems. The power hasn't gotten better, the devices have.

The way to look at it is power usage. My desktop has a 400W power supply, most Tortoises
in Shadowrun will probably have similar and most cyberdecks will probably require about as
much power as modern laptops. This is because driving electronic devices requires very
little power.

On the other hand driving mechanical devices with electricity is very hard. The reason
they don't make electric cars is because it's very hard to get an electric motor to output
that much power. I can foresee building larger devices like cars and planes with
electrical power systems because these vehicles don't require lots of power, they
accelerate over time. Construction equipment uses large amounts of power at a time.

Let's compare modern technology. Caterpillers and ships and trucks and other large
vehicles use diesal fuel and not gasoline, this is because gasoline cannot provide enough
power to drive them. Now if we can barely power a small car with electricity, it will be
very difficult to power a large vehicle with electricity.

-George Waksman
Message no. 18
From: shadowrn@*********.com (Derek Hyde)
Subject: Rigger 3 engine question
Date: Wed Feb 13 19:40:01 2002
> The reason they don't make electric cars is because it's very hard
> to get an electric motor to output that much power.

Whoa whoa whoa whoa....excuse me? They don't make electric cars? Ok the
guy two blocks down from me that has some strange "Luxury golf cart"
looking car must be driving something that doesn't exist cause it's
purely electric, not to mention the fact that Hyundai is manufacturing
hybrid motored cars now that aren't too bad performance wise and get
61mpg in the city and 68mpg on the open highway at 75mph
Message no. 19
From: shadowrn@*********.com (Derek Hyde)
Subject: Rigger 3 engine question
Date: Wed Feb 13 19:45:01 2002
> Let's compare modern technology. Caterpillers and ships and trucks and
> other large vehicles use diesal fuel and not gasoline, this is because
> gasoline cannot provide enough power to drive them. Now if we can
barely
> power a small car with electricity, it will be very difficult to power
a
> large vehicle with electricity.
>
> -George Waksman


oh oh and NO.....they use diesel engines in those vehicles because a
diesel engine produces more torque, has less moving parts (thereby
requiring less maintenance), they're more fuel efficient, require less
refined fuel (thereby costing less in most places), and they produce
MUCH cleaner emissions than a gasoline powered engine does. Not to be a
smartass and not to flame at you but as someone else said before, it
does help to know a little about a subject in more than just theory
before you begin speculating on the subject. The primary reason that
diesel engines are used by the way would with all probability be the
fact that diesel doesn't explode when you light it, in fact it's very
hard to get it to burn, takes a lot of compression, so if the vehicle
were to have an accident there's less chance of explosion, it'd just
leak out onto the ground.

Thanks again!
Message no. 20
From: shadowrn@*********.com (George S Waksman)
Subject: Rigger 3 engine question
Date: Thu Feb 14 14:00:00 2002
"Derek Hyde" wrote:

>Whoa whoa whoa whoa....excuse me? They don't make electric cars? Ok the
>guy two blocks down from me that has some strange "Luxury golf cart"
>looking car must be driving something that doesn't exist cause it's
>purely electric, not to mention the fact that Hyundai is manufacturing
>hybrid motored cars now that aren't too bad performance wise and get
>61mpg in the city and 68mpg on the open highway at 75mph
>
>

Sorry, I phrased that wrong. What I meant is, the reason it took so long to start making
electric cars and the reason they're so expensive right now. I appologize.

-George Waksman
Message no. 21
From: shadowrn@*********.com (Derek Hyde)
Subject: Rigger 3 engine question
Date: Thu Feb 14 14:10:07 2002
> Sorry, I phrased that wrong. What I meant is, the reason it took so
long
> to start making electric cars and the reason they're so expensive
right
> now. I appologize.
>
> -George Waksman
ah....ok......well that is a correct statement....however the same does
apply to this argument....#1 we're talking 60 years into the
future....lets look at the difference between a 60 year old 4 door coupe
and a new 4 door coupe with them both being the "economy model" 60 years
ago the economy model might have gotten 10mpg and been REALLY GOOD, now
an economy model gets about 40mpg and is pretty zippy so I'd say that
the change between now and 60 years from now you could quite possibly
have an electric dozer...the other comment that was mentioned was that
batteries are extremely heavy for the amount of power they
produce....ok....so they make the frame and body out of composites and
on the front edge of the blade they put a monofilament wire to aid in
the cutting through things and then the weight that the dozer needs is
the weight supplied by the batteries.

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