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Message no. 1
From: "D. Ghost" <dghost@****.COM>
Subject: Rigger Reaction
Date: Sat, 28 Nov 1998 01:24:53 -0600
I just noticed something ... a Rigger's "jacked-in intitative" is (Quick
+ Int)/2 (round down) + 2*VCR level. How does Quickness help? Does
twiddling your thumbs faster and more gracefully help you react faster?

I think Rigger Intitative should be Intelligence (including mods from
cerebral boosters & encephalons but not magic) + 2*VCR level.

Also, if it isn't already, decking reaction should be calculated the same
way, substituting Response Increase for VCR level.

--
D. Ghost
(aka Pixel, Tantrum, RuPixel)
"Coffee without caffeine is like sex without the spanking." -- Cupid
"A magician is always 'touching' himself" --Page 123, Grimoire

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Message no. 2
From: Mike Bobroff <Airwasp@***.COM>
Subject: Re: Rigger Reaction
Date: Sat, 28 Nov 1998 09:58:43 EST
In a message dated 98-11-28 02:32:15 EST, you write:

> I just noticed something ... a Rigger's "jacked-in intitative" is (Quick
> + Int)/2 (round down) + 2*VCR level. How does Quickness help? Does
> twiddling your thumbs faster and more gracefully help you react faster?
>
> I think Rigger Intitative should be Intelligence (including mods from
> cerebral boosters & encephalons but not magic) + 2*VCR level.
>
> Also, if it isn't already, decking reaction should be calculated the same
> way, substituting Response Increase for VCR level.
>
Dghost, I believe the reason FASA did this was their belief that the rigger
was still needing to do some things physically. But I do agree with you
though, it probably should be intelligence only, just like when mages project
astrally.

-Mike
Message no. 3
From: Josh Munn <barnack@*******.COM>
Subject: Re: Rigger Reaction
Date: Sat, 28 Nov 1998 10:26:50 EST
>I just noticed something ... a Rigger's "jacked-in intitative" is
>(Quick + Int)/2 (round down) + 2*VCR level. How does Quickness help? >
Does twiddling your thumbs faster and more gracefully help you react
>faster?
>
>I think Rigger Intitative should be Intelligence (including mods from
>cerebral boosters & encephalons but not magic) + 2*VCR level.
>
>Also, if it isn't already, decking reaction should be calculated the
>same way, substituting Response Increase for VCR level.
>
quickness is a messure of you abbiliy to get your muscles working. this
includes in a large part how fast your brain can send and recieve
signals to and from the rest of your body. This I/O through put would
significantly affect the responce time between your brain and any
cyberware you have including VCR's and datajacks.


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| 88-88%%LL.%.%b::Y_|_Y/%|;;;;'%8%%oo88%;o%.;;;;+|]88
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'q.>b '^^^:::::,'
""^^
There are very few personal problems that cannot be solved
through a suitable application of high explosives.



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Message no. 4
From: Sean McCrohan <mccrohan@*****.OIT.GATECH.EDU>
Subject: Re: Rigger Reaction
Date: Sat, 28 Nov 1998 11:08:16 -0500
Quoting Josh Munn (barnack@*******.COM):
> >I think Rigger Intitative should be Intelligence (including mods from
> >cerebral boosters & encephalons but not magic) + 2*VCR level.
> >
> >Also, if it isn't already, decking reaction should be calculated the
> >same way, substituting Response Increase for VCR level.

> quickness is a messure of you abbiliy to get your muscles working. this
> includes in a large part how fast your brain can send and recieve
> signals to and from the rest of your body. This I/O through put would
> significantly affect the responce time between your brain and any
> cyberware you have including VCR's and datajacks.

I think you were on the right track, here, but (IMHO) took a
slight wrong turn. I wouldn't say that quickness measures the signal speed
down your nerves...I think that's probably pretty close to a constant. But
Quickness DOES measure some qualities (such as coordination) that are mostly
mental (not how fast your body is, but how adept you are at directing it and
how aware you are of where it is), and those could playa role in rigging.
If you're using an interface where the machine becomes your body, then
body-awareness and coordination are probably performance factors.
'course, if you want to use just Int, I don't see a real problem with
that. I'm just trying to come up with a justification for the rule as written :)

--Sean
--
Sean McCrohan (mccrohan@**.gatech.edu) | "He uses his folly as a stalking
Grad Student, Human-Computer Interaction | horse, and under the presentation
Georgia Institute of Technology | of that he shoots his wit."
http://www.lcc.gatech.edu/~smccrohan | _As You Like It_, Act 5 Sc 4
Message no. 5
From: Slipspeed <atreloar@*********.COM>
Subject: Re: Rigger Reaction
Date: Mon, 30 Nov 1998 04:02:14 +1000
>I just noticed something ... a Rigger's "jacked-in intitative" is (Quick
>+ Int)/2 (round down) + 2*VCR level. How does Quickness help? Does
>twiddling your thumbs faster and more gracefully help you react faster?


BTW, it's an additional +1 if you have a datajack... Only just noticed that
a few days back. :)

>I think Rigger Intitative should be Intelligence (including mods from
>cerebral boosters & encephalons but not magic) + 2*VCR level.
>
>Also, if it isn't already, decking reaction should be calculated the same
>way, substituting Response Increase for VCR level.


Quickness is Shadowrun's version of Dexterity as well, and plays a large
roll in controlling minor movements. For example, my manual dexterity is
used to control my joystick when playing games like Need for Speed 3, and
some of those require very fine movements of the hand. As manual dexterity
especially is brain and not muscle orientated, then quickness is involved.

Any biologists out there are free to flame me about that last bit, though...
I could be wrong, but don't think so.

Slipspeed

----------------------------------------------------------------------------
"Sufficiently advanced magic is indistinguishable from technology. So
there."
Adam Treloar aka Guardian, Slipspeed
atreloar@*********.com
http://www.geocities.com/TimesSquare/1900/
----------------------------------------------------------------------------
Message no. 6
From: "D. Ghost" <dghost@****.COM>
Subject: Re: Rigger Reaction
Date: Sun, 29 Nov 1998 13:05:02 -0600
On Mon, 30 Nov 1998 04:02:14 +1000 Slipspeed <atreloar@*********.COM>
writes:
>>I just noticed something ... a Rigger's "jacked-in intitative" is
(Quick
>>+ Int)/2 (round down) + 2*VCR level. How does Quickness help? Does
>>twiddling your thumbs faster and more gracefully help you react faster?

>BTW, it's an additional +1 if you have a datajack... Only just noticed
that
>a few days back. :)

I believe the VCR bonus superceeds the datajack bonus ...

--
D. Ghost
(aka Pixel, Tantrum, RuPixel)
"Coffee without caffeine is like sex without the spanking." -- Cupid
"A magician is always 'touching' himself" --Page 123, Grimoire

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Message no. 7
From: Slipspeed <atreloar@*********.COM>
Subject: Re: Rigger Reaction
Date: Mon, 30 Nov 1998 05:38:24 +1000
>>BTW, it's an additional +1 if you have a datajack... Only just noticed
>that
>>a few days back. :)
>
>I believe the VCR bonus superceeds the datajack bonus ...


It isn't specifically stated that they aren't cumulative in SR3. I suppose
you could read it that way, though.

Quote, SR3, p42
"While rigging, riggers receive only the modifications given to them by the
VCR (see vehicles and Drones, p130) they are using. Characters with a
datajack who are driving a vehicle equipped with a datajack port receive a
+1 Reaction bonus while driving. No other Reaction or Initiative modifiers
apply except for injury modifiers."

and

Quote, SR3, p140
"Reaction and Initiative dice bonuses from a VCR apply only to characters
who are jacked into and driving a rigger-controlled vehicle. Bonuses for
boosted and wired reflexes, physical adept increases in abilities and magic
do NOT apply for drivers when determining initiative. However, characters
with a datajack who are driving a vehicle equipped with a datajack port
receive a +1 Reaction bonus."

With no relevant examples, it's unclear, as the first one does say only VCRs
apply, but then lists the datajack bonus. After THAT it says no other
reaction or initiative bonuses apply, implying that the datajack DOES apply.

But then, according to the first quote vehicle damage doesn't apply either
unless it counts as an "injury"... :)

Slipspeed

----------------------------------------------------------------------------
"Sufficiently advanced magic is indistinguishable from technology. So
there."
Adam Treloar aka Guardian, Slipspeed
atreloar@*********.com
http://www.geocities.com/TimesSquare/1900/
----------------------------------------------------------------------------
Message no. 8
From: "D. Ghost" <dghost@****.COM>
Subject: Re: Rigger Reaction
Date: Sun, 29 Nov 1998 14:02:41 -0600
On Mon, 30 Nov 1998 05:38:24 +1000 Slipspeed <atreloar@*********.COM>
writes:
>>>BTW, it's an additional +1 if you have a datajack... Only just
noticed that
>>>a few days back. :)

>>I believe the VCR bonus superceeds the datajack bonus ...

>It isn't specifically stated that they aren't cumulative in SR3. I
suppose
>you could read it that way, though.
>
>Quote, SR3, p42
>"While rigging, riggers receive only the modifications given to them by
the
>VCR (see vehicles and Drones, p130) they are using. Characters with a
>datajack who are driving a vehicle equipped with a datajack port receive
a
>+1 Reaction bonus while driving. No other Reaction or Initiative
modifiers
>apply except for injury modifiers."

While rigging, only a VCR's bonuses apply. This seems pretty clear to
me.

>and
>
>Quote, SR3, p140
>"Reaction and Initiative dice bonuses from a VCR apply only to
characters
>who are jacked into and driving a rigger-controlled vehicle. Bonuses
for
>boosted and wired reflexes, physical adept increases in abilities and
magic
>do NOT apply for drivers when determining initiative. However,
characters
>with a datajack who are driving a vehicle equipped with a datajack port
>receive a +1 Reaction bonus."
>
>With no relevant examples, it's unclear, as the first one does say only
VCRs
>apply, but then lists the datajack bonus. After THAT it says no other
>reaction or initiative bonuses apply, implying that the datajack DOES
apply.

In order for the second quote to contradict te first, it would have to
state that the a character can have BOTH the bonuses, from a datajack and
from a VCR. It doesn't do that and so there is no contradiction.
Besides, you must have a datajack to use a VCR so wouldn't make sense for
the VCR's stats to include the datajack? Granted, it should state
specificly that the datajack bonus does not apply to riggers.

If you want a clearer quote: "Reaction and Initiative bonuses normally
provided by other factors do not apply; the VCR is the only source of
such bonuses for the rigger engaged in vehicle or drone combat." (page
16, R2)

>But then, according to the first quote vehicle damage doesn't apply
either
>unless it counts as an "injury"... :)

In sense, it is an injury ... while rigging, the vehicle becomes an
extension of the rigger, right? :)

--
D. Ghost
(aka Pixel, Tantrum, RuPixel)
"Coffee without caffeine is like sex without the spanking." -- Cupid
"A magician is always 'touching' himself" --Page 123, Grimoire

___________________________________________________________________
You don't need to buy Internet access to use free Internet e-mail.
Get completely free e-mail from Juno at http://www.juno.com/getjuno.html
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Message no. 9
From: Michael vanHulst <Schizi@***.COM>
Subject: Re: Rigger Reaction
Date: Sun, 29 Nov 1998 16:42:58 EST
In a message dated 11/29/98 11:36:12 AM Pacific Standard Time,
atreloar@*********.COM writes:

> It isn't specifically stated that they aren't cumulative in SR3. I suppose
> you could read it that way, though.
>
Under the description of the datajack port on pg. 124 of Rigger-2 "However,
increase a characters Reaction Rating by 1 when he controls the vehicle
without rigger adaption or vehicle control rig cyberware."
Though the exact terminology might not have made it, it is stated that unless
contradicted by a rule in SR3, the old rules still apply. The +1 reaction is
only raised when not in conjunction with a VCR.
Message no. 10
From: Shawn Plummer <plummer@***.CC.GENESEO.EDU>
Subject: Re: Rigger Reaction
Date: Sun, 29 Nov 1998 18:11:27 -0500
>Quickness is Shadowrun's version of Dexterity as well, and plays a large
>roll in controlling minor movements. For example, my manual dexterity is
>used to control my joystick when playing games like Need for Speed 3, and
>some of those require very fine movements of the hand. As manual dexterit=
y
>especially is brain and not muscle orientated, then quickness is involved.
>

It seems to me that it all comes down to how you define quickness and
Intelligence. I feel that Quickness governs your reflex reactions. These
reactions would factor heavily into rigging when the vehicle is considered
an extension of the body.


>Any biologists out there are free to flame me about that last bit, though.=
..
>I could be wrong, but don't think so.
>
>Slipspeed

As for the biology of it. Manual dexterity is a combination of both
your mind and your muscles (nerves actually). An example is when you
seriously injure the muscles and nerves in an area of the body, it takes a
great deal of time for your mind (which has lost none of it's "dexterity")
to "teach" or accustom the muscles to responding to the neuro­electrical
impulses the brain sends them. After a lot of work with them those pathway=
s
are re-established and things start to work better. However if the wiring
isn't correct, the brain will have little effect on the dexterity exhibited
by the appendage. I think the if you instead said the Nerve system instead
of brain you would be more correct.


regards,
Shawn
Message no. 11
From: "Ratinac, Rand (NSW)" <RRatinac@*****.REDCROSS.ORG.AU>
Subject: Re: Rigger Reaction
Date: Mon, 30 Nov 1998 10:38:46 +1000
> I think you were on the right track, here, but (IMHO) took a
> slight wrong turn. I wouldn't say that quickness measures the signal
> speed down your nerves...I think that's probably pretty close to a
> constant. But Quickness DOES measure some qualities (such as
> coordination) that are mostly mental (not how fast your body is, but
> how adept you are at directing it and how aware you are of where it
> is), and those could playa role in rigging. If you're using an
> interface where the machine becomes your body, then body-awareness and
> coordination are probably performance factors.
> 'course, if you want to use just Int, I don't see a real
> problem with that. I'm just trying to come up with a justification for
> the rule as written :)
> Sean McCrohan (mccrohan@**.gatech.edu)
>
Okay, guys, I'm not getting into the actual mechanics thing (although,
from my reading, I'd agree that a datajack has no additional effect when
you're jacked in with a VCR) - I just want to discuss WHY Quickness
applies to rigging reaction (although this has no bearing on decking
reaction).

Now, I can't remember where I've read this, except I think it was Rigger
2, and I don't remember if it was given as canon or as part of a story
(I think this was at least mentioned in the story about the guy with the
ruthenium-painted van), but here's how I understand rigging to work. A
rigger doesn't just think about something and it happens - his vehicle,
in essence, becomes a part of him. He controls it in the same fashion
that you control your own body. When you're a little kid (or new to
rigging), you...no wait, that's a bad example. Okay - think of someone
who's suffered a terrible accident and couldn't walk for a while - but
is learning to again. They have to think about it - force their body to
obey them. That's what it's like when you're new to rigging (although
there's probably less resistance - you just have to think about it
more). Or imagine when you were learning to drive. You've got to
concentrate on EVERYTHING.

Eventually, though, you get so used to walking again, or driving (or
rigging), that things become programmed - you don't have to tell your
body to do something - you just think about doing it and your body
responds in the appropriate fashion. It's all reflex. Now, as far as
rigging goes, it's the same thing. Your sensors become your eyes, your
wheels become your legs - and, most probably, your gun becomes your
trigger finger. Think about shooting someone irl - your finger squeezes
the trigger and bang! Think about shooting someone when rigging -
mentally, you send a command for your trigger finger to squeeze, and
your gun fires.

Okay, that raises a memory - something about an RAS Override, or
something like that? (Believe me, you have NO idea how long it's been
since I read Rigger 2 or the Corp Security Handbook.) It's to do with
simsense - it's the thing that overrides your programmed bodily
responses when you're chipping (or, in this case, rigging). It stops
your body from carrying out your commands - so if you're chipping a porn
BTL, things don't get really embarrassing - or if you're rigging, you
don't try to suddenly start running when you tell your car to start
moving. (If I'm right, that certainly bears out my theory. :) )

So what does this mean? Well, basically, you can only control your
vehicle as fast as you can control your own body - and that's where your
reaction comes into it. Your reaction (augmented by your wired reflexes)
is how fast you can order your body to move and how fast it obeys you.
Your reaction (augmented by your VCR) is how fast you can order your
BODY to move, and how fast your VEHICLE obeys you. Follow me?

Oh, one last (sorta separate) thing which is probably meaningful.
Deckers have temple datajacks, to access high brain functions
(everything you do in the Matrix is a virtual representation of your
thought processes - or something like that). Riggers, however, have
datajacks behind their ears. I'm not sure exactly what that accesses,
but I think it's supposed to cut the high brain functions out of the
loop - everything is based on your reflexes - it prevents you from
analysing things to death. And, as everyone knows, you start getting
into trouble when you start analysing reflex-based activities (such as
driving, or snap-shooting a gun).

Anyway, Jon Szeto can probably confirm or deny all this. Jon? Is that
how it's (more or less) supposed to work?

*In the middle of sex, Doc' starts analysing his performance...and
immediately suffers acute impotency...*

Doc'

.sig Sauer
Message no. 12
From: Micheal Feeney <Starrngr@***.COM>
Subject: Re: Rigger Reaction
Date: Mon, 30 Nov 1998 00:12:23 EST
In a message dated 98-11-29 18:39:03 EST, you write:

> Oh, one last (sorta separate) thing which is probably meaningful.
> Deckers have temple datajacks, to access high brain functions
> (everything you do in the Matrix is a virtual representation of your
> thought processes - or something like that). Riggers, however, have
> datajacks behind their ears. I'm not sure exactly what that accesses,
> but I think it's supposed to cut the high brain functions out of the
> loop - everything is based on your reflexes - it prevents you from
> analysing things to death. And, as everyone knows, you start getting
> into trouble when you start analysing reflex-based activities (such as
> driving, or snap-shooting a gun).

Its mentioned in a couple of places... Both in R2 and in B3.3 Basicly, a
standard datajack connects into the concious thought area of the brain, while
the VCR plugs into motor control fuctions. Basicly a datajack allows you to
"Think" a command to a car... the VCR allows you to become the car. And I
like the thougth about RAS... Makes sense since you dont want the rigger
thrashing around in the seat cause his body is mimicing the signals he is
sending to the vehicle he is rigged into.

--
Starrngr -- Now with WEBPAGE:
Ranger HQ
<A HREF="http://hometown.aol.com/starrngr/index.htm">;
HTTP://hometown.aol.com/starrngr/index.htm</A>;

"You wear a Hawaiian shirt and bring your music on a RUN? No wonder they call
you Howling Mad..." -- Rabid the Pysad.
Message no. 13
From: Slipspeed <atreloar@*********.COM>
Subject: Re: Rigger Reaction
Date: Tue, 1 Dec 1998 00:07:55 +1000
>Under the description of the datajack port on pg. 124 of Rigger-2 "However,
>increase a characters Reaction Rating by 1 when he controls the vehicle
>without rigger adaption or vehicle control rig cyberware."
> Though the exact terminology might not have made it, it is stated that
unless
>contradicted by a rule in SR3, the old rules still apply. The +1 reaction
is
>only raised when not in conjunction with a VCR.

Well that's just great, and solves everything, but not owning Rigger 2 meant
that I couldn't go look that up. As I said, by SR3 alone it isn't stated.
With this little piece of information it's perfectly clear.

Slipspeed

----------------------------------------------------------------------------
"Sufficiently advanced magic is indistinguishable from technology. So
there."
Adam Treloar aka Guardian, Slipspeed
atreloar@*********.com
http://www.geocities.com/TimesSquare/1900/
----------------------------------------------------------------------------
Message no. 14
From: Brett Zinn <bpz7971@*******.MWSC.EDU>
Subject: Re: Rigger Reaction
Date: Thu, 3 Dec 1998 08:00:53 -0600
On Sat, 28 Nov 1998, D. Ghost wrote:
> I think Rigger Intitative should be Intelligence (including mods from
> cerebral boosters & encephalons but not magic) + 2*VCR level.
>
> Also, if it isn't already, decking reaction should be calculated the same
> way, substituting Response Increase for VCR level.

Why not magic? In VR2.0 the hacking pool is increased by
intelligence from any source, including magic. It does not matter how or
why you are as intelligent as you are, only that you are.

> D. Ghost
> "Coffee without caffeine is like sex without the spanking." -- Cupid

Brett Zinn
bpz7971@*******.mwsc.edu
Message no. 15
From: "D. Ghost" <dghost@****.COM>
Subject: Re: Rigger Reaction
Date: Thu, 3 Dec 1998 22:17:19 -0600
On Thu, 3 Dec 1998 08:00:53 -0600 Brett Zinn <bpz7971@*******.MWSC.EDU>
writes:
>On Sat, 28 Nov 1998, D. Ghost wrote:
>> I think Rigger Intitative should be Intelligence (including mods from
>> cerebral boosters & encephalons but not magic) + 2*VCR level.
>>
>> Also, if it isn't already, decking reaction should be calculated the
same
>> way, substituting Response Increase for VCR level.

> Why not magic? In VR2.0 the hacking pool is increased by
>intelligence from any source, including magic. It does not matter how or
>why you are as intelligent as you are, only that you are.

*Checks VR2.0*
Oops. I must have gotten confused because of the otaku thread that was
going on at the same time (Magical boosts do not help otaku in the matrix
as per VR2.0, page 145.).

--
D. Ghost
(aka Pixel, Tantrum, RuPixel)
"Coffee without caffeine is like sex without the spanking." -- Cupid
"A magician is always 'touching' himself" --Page 123, Grimoire

___________________________________________________________________
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